Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
I read a history of MS once and IIRC they were kind of forced intoexpanding their business. It's been many years since I read it but I think IBM (perhaps) was looking for an OS and after being turned away initially by MS they eventually came back and at that point, MS found a small company nearby who had created DOS - they bought DOS for something like $80K and it became MS-DOS which they then sold all over the world - and the PC was born (in a very condensed version) ;-) I may be wrong -- but I think that's what happened - LarryT On 7/21/2013 4:27 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: With no consumer dependency they will HAVE no market. The normal result of a monopoly, eventually people learn to get around it, and the organization dies -- no new ideas. Intel monopolized the PC chip market for something like 40 years, with a few exceptions, and is no no longer able to innovate anything -- all their corporate energy was used defending their turf. I'm amused that they think they can high end the market and survive. How are they gonna pay dividends to stock options to all those stockholders if they sell six supercomputers a year? Now that other designs have supplanted the x86 architecture (which really DOES date to the 1970s) they have nothing to compete with. RIP Intel. Microsoft has always produce crappy products, I don't know why anyone would think their hardware would be any better than their software. They have made their money by appropriating other peoples work for at least 30 years, and it's way to late to innovate there, too. MS is, and has always been, a derivative company, they derive their products from other peoples ideas and software (when they don't steal it outright). So long as Ballmer is in charge, this won't change no matter what re-organizations they try, they need to toss the entire company culture out and start again. Improvements in computers these days are very small compared to a few years ago. We now have a 5 year life cycle for desktops and laptops -- there is now real change in operation. We got stuck with the new Office this time around, which bites -- all sorts of annoying changes that do nothing but irritate me, there was NOTHING wrong with the menu system, it's not improved by making it harder to see, less organized, and piling all sorts of different functions onto one gigantic toolbar. I want to see my document, not all the crap some teenaged programmer wants to show off. This means there are not productivity improvements from replacing computers at work -- the only thing that works better now on my brand new one is startup, which is a function of some marginal changes in the OS, not anything else. I use it for email, word processing, and searching for products and parts on the Internet, hardly heavy duty use. My instrument computers acquire data at 15k Hz as a general rule, and the data process is trivial (although glacially slow due to the shit software, again dating from the 70's, just in software instead of slow hardware). Some of them use IEEE 488 bus connections, you see I don't need speed! MS drove all the other competitors out of business (think WordPerfect), and now they don't have anyone to steal code from, so they are history. Long overdue if you ask me, all that progaming talent could have been used to make life better, not make me suffer with crap software. Everybody thinks they are going to become a multitrillionare by writing trivial software or designing a computer chip. This stuff is all commodity, we should not have been paying anywhere near as much for it as we have been. One of the sources of our current economic problems. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Actually, MS sold IBM an operating system they did not have, and scrounged around until they found a company that had created an (illegal) technical reference clone of CPM using 16 bit instructions rather than the 8 bit 8080 instructions. If founder of Digital Research (who IBM had turned down) had been more interested at that point, he could had easily sued and closed MS down even during the Reagan years. Scrounge, copy, patch, swipe, outright steal, strongarm, sue has been the MS modus operandi since inception, and it shows. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Actually, MS sold IBM an operating system they did not have, and scrounged around until they found a company that had created an (illegal) technical reference clone of CPM using 16 bit instructions rather than the 8 bit 8080 instructions. If founder of Digital Research (who IBM had turned down) had been more interested at that point, he could had easily sued and closed MS down even during the Reagan years. Scrounge, copy, patch, swipe, outright steal, strongarm, sue has been the MS modus operandi since inception, and it shows. Peter Well, Billy bob's daddy is a high priced shyster. The acorn don't fall fer from da tree. Scrounge, copy, patch, swipe, outright steal, strongarm, sue has been the lawyer modus operandi for decades. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
If founder of Digital Research (who IBM had turned down) DR wasn't turned down, Kildall decided that it was too nice out that day to waste in meeting IBM, and went flying instead. Turns out that was a bit of a CLM. (Not sure DR would have had a suit leg to stand on, since CP/M was itself sort of a clone of an early DEC OS, but for micros.) Gates lied his ass off about having a product to sell them, besides BASIC and FORTRAN. No innovation there at all, the PC was a (weird) clone of an Apple II, complete with cassette interface, BASIC in ROM, slots, and no disk drive, it wasn't even _faster_ than the Apple since a machine translator had been used to convert 8080 BASIC to 8088. DOS 1.0, of course, was a functional clone of CP/M, minus that wretched PIP program. IBM's floppies even held less data than Apple's. Hugely disappointing to the newly-employed computer designer, going out shopping with a bit of real money to spend for the first time. I went to the store ready to buy something, and walked out in disgust. The disgust remains. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
The story I recall on why this happend in the first place (IBM certainly had resources to create a PC operating system themselves if they wanted to) was that IBM did not really see the PC as something with a big potential market. In computers, IBM was about mainframes and other big glass house installations and they saw the PC as a toy with no real serious business value. Allan Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net writes: Actually, MS sold IBM an operating system they did not have, and scrounged around until they found a company that had created an (illegal) technical reference clone of CPM using 16 bit instructions rather than the 8 bit 8080 instructions. If founder of Digital Research (who IBM had turned down) had been more interested at that point, he could had easily sued and closed MS down even during the Reagan years. Scrounge, copy, patch, swipe, outright steal, strongarm, sue has been the MS modus operandi since inception, and it shows. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Allan Streib ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
on the head. They ripped the original owner of the OS off. When IBM went with OS/2, that peeved Evil Bill. On Jul 22, 2013, at 3:57 AM, Larry T wrote: I read a history of MS once and IIRC they were kind of forced intoexpanding their business. It's been many years since I read it but I think IBM (perhaps) was looking for an OS and after being turned away initially by MS they eventually came back and at that point, MS found a small company nearby who had created DOS - they bought DOS for something like $80K and it became MS-DOS which they then sold all over the world - and the PC was born (in a very condensed version) ;-) I may be wrong -- but I think that's what happened - LarryT On 7/21/2013 4:27 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: With no consumer dependency they will HAVE no market. The normal result of a monopoly, eventually people learn to get around it, and the organization dies -- no new ideas. Intel monopolized the PC chip market for something like 40 years, with a few exceptions, and is no no longer able to innovate anything -- all their corporate energy was used defending their turf. I'm amused that they think they can high end the market and survive. How are they gonna pay dividends to stock options to all those stockholders if they sell six supercomputers a year? Now that other designs have supplanted the x86 architecture (which really DOES date to the 1970s) they have nothing to compete with. RIP Intel. Microsoft has always produce crappy products, I don't know why anyone would think their hardware would be any better than their software. They have made their money by appropriating other peoples work for at least 30 years, and it's way to late to innovate there, too. MS is, and has always been, a derivative company, they derive their products from other peoples ideas and software (when they don't steal it outright). So long as Ballmer is in charge, this won't change no matter what re-organizations they try, they need to toss the entire company culture out and start again. Improvements in computers these days are very small compared to a few years ago. We now have a 5 year life cycle for desktops and laptops -- there is now real change in operation. We got stuck with the new Office this time around, which bites -- all sorts of annoying changes that do nothing but irritate me, there was NOTHING wrong with the menu system, it's not improved by making it harder to see, less organized, and piling all sorts of different functions onto one gigantic toolbar. I want to see my document, not all the crap some teenaged programmer wants to show off. This means there are not productivity improvements from replacing computers at work -- the only thing that works better now on my brand new one is startup, which is a function of some marginal changes in the OS, not anything else. I use it for email, word processing, and searching for products and parts on the Internet, hardly heavy duty use. My instrument computers acquire data at 15k Hz as a general rule, and the data process is trivial (although glacially slow due to the shit software, again dating from the 70's, just in software instead of slow hardware). Some of them use IEEE 488 bus connections, you see I don't need speed! MS drove all the other competitors out of business (think WordPerfect), and now they don't have anyone to steal code from, so they are history. Long overdue if you ask me, all that progaming talent could have been used to make life better, not make me suffer with crap software. Everybody thinks they are going to become a multitrillionare by writing trivial software or designing a computer chip. This stuff is all commodity, we should not have been paying anywhere near as much for it as we have been. One of the sources of our current economic problems. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
No doubt! That IBM PC was really an attempt to keep IBM employees from buying Apple computers, I think. A real turd, even by 1980 standards (since there were several others out there that were better). Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Thanks for that -- My memory as usual has let me down... Larry On 7/22/2013 12:31 PM, Dieselhead wrote: Actually, MS sold IBM an operating system they did not have, and scrounged around until they found a company that had created an (illegal) technical reference clone of CPM using 16 bit instructions rather than the 8 bit 8080 instructions. If founder of Digital Research (who IBM had turned down) had been more interested at that point, he could had easily sued and closed MS down even during the Reagan years. Scrounge, copy, patch, swipe, outright steal, strongarm, sue has been the MS modus operandi since inception, and it shows. Peter Well, Billy bob's daddy is a high priced shyster. The acorn don't fall fer from da tree. Scrounge, copy, patch, swipe, outright steal, strongarm, sue has been the lawyer modus operandi for decades. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Can you say Amiga??? On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.netwrote: A real turd, even by 1980 standards (since there were several others out there that were better). Peter -- OK Don 2013 F150, 19 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Oop, I wasn't being clear. Previously I was unable to find a distro I could make do everything I wanted... Saturday evening I managed to run my laptop with the powersupply accidentally disconnected from the wall. I hadn't configured the power minder and at some point the laptop just quit and managed to corrupt something (I haven't figured out just what yet) so it wouldn't boot. I went all day yesterday with no computer but headed over to Fry's and picked up a 32GB USB key drive ($18!) which today I put Puppy 5.5.5 (up from 5.3.3 I had been using before. I'm really digging 5.5.5, it comes with Firefox while I prefer Chromium but thats small potatoes. Runs like stink off the physically tiny Patriot drive which is an improvement over the physically larger Kingston 16GB I was using before. This could be a slick setup for somebody with a dead internal drive... -Curt Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 21:54:20 -0500 From: Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer Message-ID: 20130720215420.31a79...@jasper.condray.lan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Curt wrote: I've been living full time on Puppy Linux for 5 days now and I'm very pleased with it. I've been living full time on Debian for a 12+ years now, and I'm pleased with it. *whew* That sounds like a long time! I'd given up on Linux because I couldn't find a distro that would reliably play web video. You expect a _distro_ to do exactly what you want? I think I've pestered you about this before. *smiles* That view may be the popular view - but a major advantage of Linux is trying to be the _one_ thing that meets everyone's needs - it's adaptable. It's silly to expect a distribution to package what you want. If you don't like what it is - it is both practical and _lawful_ to adapt and change it 'till you do like it. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
yeah, Ethics weren't high on Bills list of priorities... He's not a role model anyone should ever consider for their kids or themselves for that matter. Unless you want to rule the world! Buawaaaw!! Too bad BG doesn't have a handlebar moustache - he'd be perfect standing next to a RR track twirling the tips of his 'stach while a pretty young maiden tied to the rails watches the train get closer and closer! Can you say Ruthless kiddies?And some of the things his foundationdonates to are at the extreme end of progressivism. LarryT On 7/22/2013 3:42 PM, clay wrote: on the head. They ripped the original owner of the OS off. When IBM went with OS/2, that peeved Evil Bill. On Jul 22, 2013, at 3:57 AM, Larry T wrote: I read a history of MS once and IIRC they were kind of forced intoexpanding their business. It's been many years since I read it but I think IBM (perhaps) was looking for an OS and after being turned away initially by MS they eventually came back and at that point, MS found a small company nearby who had created DOS - they bought DOS for something like $80K and it became MS-DOS which they then sold all over the world - and the PC was born (in a very condensed version) ;-) I may be wrong -- but I think that's what happened - LarryT On 7/21/2013 4:27 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: With no consumer dependency they will HAVE no market. The normal result of a monopoly, eventually people learn to get around it, and the organization dies -- no new ideas. Intel monopolized the PC chip market for something like 40 years, with a few exceptions, and is no no longer able to innovate anything -- all their corporate energy was used defending their turf. I'm amused that they think they can high end the market and survive. How are they gonna pay dividends to stock options to all those stockholders if they sell six supercomputers a year? Now that other designs have supplanted the x86 architecture (which really DOES date to the 1970s) they have nothing to compete with. RIP Intel. Microsoft has always produce crappy products, I don't know why anyone would think their hardware would be any better than their software. They have made their money by appropriating other peoples work for at least 30 years, and it's way to late to innovate there, too. MS is, and has always been, a derivative company, they derive their products from other peoples ideas and software (when they don't steal it outright). So long as Ballmer is in charge, this won't change no matter what re-organizations they try, they need to toss the entire company culture out and start again. Improvements in computers these days are very small compared to a few years ago. We now have a 5 year life cycle for desktops and laptops -- there is now real change in operation. We got stuck with the new Office this time around, which bites -- all sorts of annoying changes that do nothing but irritate me, there was NOTHING wrong with the menu system, it's not improved by making it harder to see, less organized, and piling all sorts of different functions onto one gigantic toolbar. I want to see my document, not all the crap some teenaged programmer wants to show off. This means there are not productivity improvements from replacing computers at work -- the only thing that works better now on my brand new one is startup, which is a function of some marginal changes in the OS, not anything else. I use it for email, word processing, and searching for products and parts on the Internet, hardly heavy duty use. My instrument computers acquire data at 15k Hz as a general rule , and the data process is trivial (although glacially slow due to the shit software, again dating from the 70's, just in software instead of slow hardware). Some of them use IEEE 488 bus connections, you see I don't need speed! MS drove all the other competitors out of business (think WordPerfect), and now they don't have anyone to steal code from, so they are history. Long overdue if you ask me, all that progaming talent could have been used to make life better, not make me suffer with crap software. Everybody thinks they are going to become a multitrillionare by writing trivial software or designing a computer chip. This stuff is all commodity, we should not have been paying anywhere near as much for it as we have been. One of the sources of our current economic problems. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
yeah, Ethics weren't high on Bills list of priorities... He's not a role model anyone should ever consider for their kids or themselves for that matter. Unless you want to rule the world! Buawaaaw!! Too bad BG doesn't have a handlebar moustache - he'd be perfect standing next to a RR track twirling the tips of his 'stach while a pretty young maiden tied to the rails watches the train get closer and closer! Can you say Ruthless kiddies?And some of the things his foundationdonates to are at the extreme end of progressivism. marks ism (like wanting to take over the world) LarryT See correction in the last sentence. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Larry wrote: I read a history of MS once and IIRC they were kind of forced intoexpanding their business. I think this is the version told in Triumph of the Nerds. Check it out at youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFL9IyJ_qHk 3 parts, 3 hours mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com writes: No need for oriface any more. Libre office is free, as is googelie docs. Libre Office is fine for what most people need in an office software package, but it is far from 100% compatible with MS Office, if that is a consideration. However thanks to the outstanding WINE project it is also possible to run the real MS Office on linux. I've never done it myself though so I don't know how easy it is to set up. Allan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Intel is trying to let go of the consumer dependency and increase the commercial and research end of thier market. They pilfered talent from Cray to build stronger chips and powerful supercomputers. M$ is getting a bit decrepit. Recent corporate re-alignment resulted in a few neighbors being let go. The lucky ones found work with Google and Amazon. The great fiasco of Surface tablets and poor reception for Win8 do not portend well for them clay 2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately well tailored chap 1974 450sl - Frosch - Two tone green 1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran 1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:00 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: I think Microsoft is finally going to die from petrification, along with Intel -- they used their (illegal) monopoly power to force us to use bad software on lousy chips for too long, and neither company is capable of responding to market forces (Intel has announced they want to force people back onto PCs using superior x86 junk). It took 30 years, but maybe, just maybe, we can get out from under this crap. Everyone else always made better stuff than Microsoft, and Intel became a brain-dead monopoly about the time the founder died -- no real significant research since then, just kept tarting up a dead-end power hog design. I'm greatly amused that NONE of the smart phones use anything from Intel. Before long no laptop or PC will either, unless they get rid of that ancient crap. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
major corporations are not on the quick upgrade path, so M$ is not making cash on major sales anymore. Corporate growth used to allow for fresh hardware to supply employees. No growth, means no new hardware coming in, and force reductions result in fewer upgrades. SWMBA's firm is on a 36-40 month hardware upgrade cycle. Their OS upgrade cycle is even further out. They are on XP until next year, when they will be moving to Win7. They did Win95/98 before then. Took four years to prove that XP was viable and stable enough. Office 2003 is current platform. That replaced Wordperfect. BTW, the new hardware will be using the old hardware's licenses since new hardware is coming with linux clay 2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately well tailored chap 1974 450sl - Frosch - Two tone green 1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran 1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:58 PM, Mountain Man wrote: Peter wrote: I think Microsoft is finally going to die from petrification... Nice!! Now is the time for new design - what will that be? Open source is a nice gimmick but still remains catch-up to windows or apple. People change too slowly but radical grabs hold over several years. Is there any hint how new tech will look? Or will new tech merely be inclusion of old tech in different packages as we have seen for 35 years? Something completely out of the box like apple/DOS/pc needs to arrive - what? mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
clay redgh...@comcast.net writes: Intel is trying to let go of the consumer dependency and increase the commercial and research end of thier market. They pilfered talent from Cray to build stronger chips and powerful supercomputers. Hm perhaps that explains why Cray is using Intel processors in their new Cascade systems. Their XT/XE line used AMD processors. -- Allan Streib ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
With no consumer dependency they will HAVE no market. The normal result of a monopoly, eventually people learn to get around it, and the organization dies -- no new ideas. Intel monopolized the PC chip market for something like 40 years, with a few exceptions, and is no no longer able to innovate anything -- all their corporate energy was used defending their turf. I'm amused that they think they can high end the market and survive. How are they gonna pay dividends to stock options to all those stockholders if they sell six supercomputers a year? Now that other designs have supplanted the x86 architecture (which really DOES date to the 1970s) they have nothing to compete with. RIP Intel. Microsoft has always produce crappy products, I don't know why anyone would think their hardware would be any better than their software. They have made their money by appropriating other peoples work for at least 30 years, and it's way to late to innovate there, too. MS is, and has always been, a derivative company, they derive their products from other peoples ideas and software (when they don't steal it outright). So long as Ballmer is in charge, this won't change no matter what re-organizations they try, they need to toss the entire company culture out and start again. Improvements in computers these days are very small compared to a few years ago. We now have a 5 year life cycle for desktops and laptops -- there is now real change in operation. We got stuck with the new Office this time around, which bites -- all sorts of annoying changes that do nothing but irritate me, there was NOTHING wrong with the menu system, it's not improved by making it harder to see, less organized, and piling all sorts of different functions onto one gigantic toolbar. I want to see my document, not all the crap some teenaged programmer wants to show off. This means there are not productivity improvements from replacing computers at work -- the only thing that works better now on my brand new one is startup, which is a function of some marginal changes in the OS, not anything else. I use it for email, word processing, and searching for products and parts on the Internet, hardly heavy duty use. My instrument computers acquire data at 15k Hz as a general rule, and the data process is trivial (although glacially slow due to the shit software, again dating from the 70's, just in software instead of slow hardware). Some of them use IEEE 488 bus connections, you see I don't need speed! MS drove all the other competitors out of business (think WordPerfect), and now they don't have anyone to steal code from, so they are history. Long overdue if you ask me, all that progaming talent could have been used to make life better, not make me suffer with crap software. Everybody thinks they are going to become a multitrillionare by writing trivial software or designing a computer chip. This stuff is all commodity, we should not have been paying anywhere near as much for it as we have been. One of the sources of our current economic problems. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
you can say the same thing about win8 IMO!! change for the sake of change! Typical MS bs! LarryT 91 300D On 7/19/2013 8:52 AM, Curt Raymond wrote: 10.8 is the most Microsoft like screwup of an OS Apple has ever made. They've moved stuff around just for the sake of moving it. Its a drag. 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made but of course every time they rev the hardware they force you into a new OS. -Curt Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 22:49:08 -0500 From: M. Mitchell Marmel marme...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer Message-ID: a06240803ce0e6797d0e8@[192.168.1.64] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed At 6:48 PM -0700 7/18/13, Jim Cathey wrote: Error code says TCP/IP is not working on my Win7 computer. Anyone know of a fix that's simple and easy? Mac OS 10. +1 -MMM- Mac jockey since 1985 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Very true! We all learned various OS's, Office Suites, etc and now we get new software that has changed for no logical reason other than the manufacturer wanted changes to justify a new product. I cold live with MS Word of 1997 quite happily thank you, but MS keeps adding something new called functionality - even though 90% of people never use that stuff. Same for excel and Access, etc. I learned what I needed to do my job and after that it was icing on the cake, IMO. i'm some can justify bar and pie charts that can be fancier than we made in 97 - although we managed to do all that was needed - yet we get more and more changes - all with new commands we mus learn. ;-) Larryt On 7/19/2013 11:48 AM, Curt Raymond wrote: I'm still learning the OS (again) but stuff like not having a link to the finder on the desktop nor having a handy keyboard shortcut drives me batty. Stuff that you used to do in 2 clicks now takes 5... I also hate that they reversed the functionality of the F keys, used to be you did function- Fkey to get volume and whatnot, now its function Fkey to get the actual Fkey function (like F5 to refresh a page in a web browser). The mac apologists say oh well you can change the behavior back but my point is it was fine before and now I need to change the thing to make it do what it used to do just fine... /RANT -Curt Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:18:30 -0500 From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer Message-ID: a062408b3ce0eecd72a7e@[192.168.0.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed 10.8 is the most Microsoft like screwup of an OS Apple has ever made. They've moved stuff around just for the sake of moving it. Its a drag. 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made but of course every time they rev the hardware they force you into a new OS. -Curt Interesting. Guess I should hang on to my 10.6 macbook a while longer. I have no complaints about this one. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Curt wrote: 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made... I used to say that about System 6.8. --Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
At least with Win8 I understand the concept, trying to unify the PC and tablet platforms. Stupid idea but at least they had some kind of a plan. I've been living full time on Puppy Linux for 5 days now and I'm very pleased with it. Other than a few hiccups (I can't figure out how to import my Chrome bookmarks into Chromium) I'm quite pleased with it. This is a work laptop that is being replaced (the schedule advances now). I was planning on making this my home PC to replace a big old clunky tower. I still plan on that but now it'll be Puppy as the OS. I'd given up on Linux because I couldn't find a distro that would reliably play web video. As we watch all our TV online that was an absolute requirement. Puppy seems to play everything fine. Amazon, Youtube, Hulu all seem to work, this might be a winner. I had planned on investing in an SSD for quick quiet boots but it works so well off a USB drive I might just hang a 32GB key on it and use it that way keeping the internal drive for storage. -Curt Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 19:18:35 -0400 From: Larry T l02tur...@comcast.net To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer Message-ID: 51eb1acb.5040...@comcast.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed you can say the same thing about win8 IMO!! change for the sake of change! Typical MS bs! LarryT 91 300D On 7/19/2013 8:52 AM, Curt Raymond wrote: 10.8 is the most Microsoft like screwup of an OS Apple has ever made. They've moved stuff around just for the sake of moving it. Its a drag. 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made but of course every time they rev the hardware they force you into a new OS. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
I think Microsoft is finally going to die from petrification, along with Intel -- they used their (illegal) monopoly power to force us to use bad software on lousy chips for too long, and neither company is capable of responding to market forces (Intel has announced they want to force people back onto PCs using superior x86 junk). It took 30 years, but maybe, just maybe, we can get out from under this crap. Everyone else always made better stuff than Microsoft, and Intel became a brain-dead monopoly about the time the founder died -- no real significant research since then, just kept tarting up a dead- end power hog design. I'm greatly amused that NONE of the smart phones use anything from Intel. Before long no laptop or PC will either, unless they get rid of that ancient crap. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
On Jul 20, 2013 5:35 PM, Fmiser fmi...@gmail.com wrote: Curt wrote: 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made... I used to say that about System 6.8. Surely you mean 6.0.8? Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Peter wrote: I think Microsoft is finally going to die from petrification... Nice!! Now is the time for new design - what will that be? Open source is a nice gimmick but still remains catch-up to windows or apple. People change too slowly but radical grabs hold over several years. Is there any hint how new tech will look? Or will new tech merely be inclusion of old tech in different packages as we have seen for 35 years? Something completely out of the box like apple/DOS/pc needs to arrive - what? mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Probably won't look or work much different, but we at least will be able to get away from 1960's CPU architecture and move on to something, say, 1980 anyway. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
I think Microsoft is finally going to die from petrification, along with Intel -- they used their (illegal) monopoly power to force us to use bad software on lousy chips for too long, and neither company is capable of responding to market forces (Intel has announced they want to force people back onto PCs using superior x86 junk). It took 30 years, but maybe, just maybe, we can get out from under this crap. Everyone else always made better stuff than Microsoft, and Intel became a brain-dead monopoly about the time the founder died -- no real significant research since then, just kept tarting up a dead-end power hog design. I'm greatly amused that NONE of the smart phones use anything from Intel. Before long no laptop or PC will either, unless they get rid of that ancient crap. Peter Petrification or putrification? The biggest failure of computing in the past 30 years is the keyboard. It is a miserable HMI (human machine interface) Surely we can do better. The big problem with programmers is that they want to add/change crap just because they can (because they are nearly always out of control) The focus should be on making a better product and providing the customer better value. I plan to migrate biz computers to linux rather than any post XP desktop. For now XP still works. No need for oriface any more. Libre office is free, as is googelie docs. Mach OS 10.6 is stable, much cheaper than winders any number but not free. The univ junque sale had a whole stack of sun boxes for the unix junkies. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Peter wrote: Probably won't look or work much different, but we at least will be able to get away from 1960's CPU architecture and move on to something, say, 1980 anyway. That all means more of the same, I think. Oh, well. The more things change, the more things stay the same. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Curt wrote: I've been living full time on Puppy Linux for 5 days now and I'm very pleased with it. I've been living full time on Debian for a 12+ years now, and I'm pleased with it. *whew* That sounds like a long time! I'd given up on Linux because I couldn't find a distro that would reliably play web video. You expect a _distro_ to do exactly what you want? I think I've pestered you about this before. *smiles* That view may be the popular view - but a major advantage of Linux is trying to be the _one_ thing that meets everyone's needs - it's adaptable. It's silly to expect a distribution to package what you want. If you don't like what it is - it is both practical and _lawful_ to adapt and change it 'till you do like it. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
I'm living on Puppy Linux from a 16GB key drive right now as Win7 on my laptop took a dump. Its actually a little snappier with Puppy... -Curt Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:13:20 -0700 From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer Message-ID: CABHyH=ycyafesmbwsqpdta0w+xt7jgquu7bwjqh0-gvs_re...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 18, 2013 7:00 PM, Gerry Archer arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: If I ever switch it will be to Linux. On that note, can you use another computer to burn a live Linux install CD or flash drive and boot from it? That will automatically configure itself for you network hardware, so if you can then get online, you can rule out a hardware problem. Plus you might find that you like Linux ;) Barring that option, I would try uninstalling the network card drivers, then rebooting the machine and let Windows find the hardware and go through the New Hardware Found dance. That worked for me when I had an HP laptop that would periodically forget that it had a wireless card. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
10.8 is the most Microsoft like screwup of an OS Apple has ever made. They've moved stuff around just for the sake of moving it. Its a drag. 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made but of course every time they rev the hardware they force you into a new OS. -Curt Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 22:49:08 -0500 From: M. Mitchell Marmel marme...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer Message-ID: a06240803ce0e6797d0e8@[192.168.1.64] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed At 6:48 PM -0700 7/18/13, Jim Cathey wrote: Error code says TCP/IP is not working on my Win7 computer. Anyone know of a fix that's simple and easy? Mac OS 10. +1 -MMM- Mac jockey since 1985 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
10.8 is the most Microsoft like screwup of an OS Apple has ever made. They've moved stuff around just for the sake of moving it. Its a drag. 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made but of course every time they rev the hardware they force you into a new OS. -Curt Interesting. Guess I should hang on to my 10.6 macbook a while longer. I have no complaints about this one. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
I'm still learning the OS (again) but stuff like not having a link to the finder on the desktop nor having a handy keyboard shortcut drives me batty. Stuff that you used to do in 2 clicks now takes 5... I also hate that they reversed the functionality of the F keys, used to be you did function- Fkey to get volume and whatnot, now its function Fkey to get the actual Fkey function (like F5 to refresh a page in a web browser). The mac apologists say oh well you can change the behavior back but my point is it was fine before and now I need to change the thing to make it do what it used to do just fine... /RANT -Curt Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 08:18:30 -0500 From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer Message-ID: a062408b3ce0eecd72a7e@[192.168.0.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed 10.8 is the most Microsoft like screwup of an OS Apple has ever made. They've moved stuff around just for the sake of moving it. Its a drag. 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made but of course every time they rev the hardware they force you into a new OS. -Curt Interesting. Guess I should hang on to my 10.6 macbook a while longer. I have no complaints about this one. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
At 5:52 AM -0700 7/19/13, Curt Raymond wrote: 10.8 is the most Microsoft like screwup of an OS Apple has ever made. They've moved stuff around just for the sake of moving it. Its a drag. 10.6 was the last really good OS Apple made but of course every time they rev the hardware they force you into a new OS. Well, I generally go a few years between hardware updates, so by the time I get a Mini CoreTrio 50Ghz 4TB/250PB card computer in 2020, Mac will have the bugs in OS XI worked out. :D -MMM- ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
Error code says TCP/IP is not working on my Win7 computer. Anyone know of a fix that's simple and easy? Mac OS 10. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net Error code says TCP/IP is not working on my Win7 computer. Anyone know of a fix that's simple and easy? Mac OS 10. -- Jim Thanks, Jim, but I've been that route with a MacBook and earlier Apples. If I ever switch it will be to Linux. Gerrywho finds the Iphone to be well designed and useful but not a substitute for a laptop/desktop. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
On Jul 18, 2013 7:00 PM, Gerry Archer arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: If I ever switch it will be to Linux. On that note, can you use another computer to burn a live Linux install CD or flash drive and boot from it? That will automatically configure itself for you network hardware, so if you can then get online, you can rule out a hardware problem. Plus you might find that you like Linux ;) Barring that option, I would try uninstalling the network card drivers, then rebooting the machine and let Windows find the hardware and go through the New Hardware Found dance. That worked for me when I had an HP laptop that would periodically forget that it had a wireless card. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
- Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer On Jul 18, 2013 7:00 PM, Gerry Archer arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: If I ever switch it will be to Linux. . On that note, can you use another computer to burn a live Linux install CD or flash drive and boot from it? That will automatically configure itself for you network hardware, so if you can then get online, you can rule out a hardware problem. Plus you might find that you like Linux ;) Barring that option, I would try uninstalling the network card drivers, then rebooting the machine and let Windows find the hardware and go through the New Hardware Found dance. That worked for me when I had an HP laptop that would periodically forget that it had a wireless card. Alex - It seems that the corruption of TCP/IP is a common problem for which there are a number of fixes on the internet. I was hoping someone could suggest a reliable fix since some of the network fixes are worse than the original disorder. I'll probably try Microsofts long and complex fix first, and if that doesn't work, I'll try some of the fixes from the better known internet sources. I like Linux, have latest Ubuntu on a desktop, and when MS quits supporting WinXP, may very well go to Linux instead of Windows7 or later versions. I have most of the Linux versions on CD and I've used them to fix other computers as you suggest, but I'm currently getting over kidney surgery and don't yet have the energy to dig into it; in other words looking for a simple solution. Thanks, Alex, Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] (SPAM?) TCP/IP not working on WinXP computer
At 6:48 PM -0700 7/18/13, Jim Cathey wrote: Error code says TCP/IP is not working on my Win7 computer. Anyone know of a fix that's simple and easy? Mac OS 10. +1 -MMM- Mac jockey since 1985 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
