Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Rich Thomas]

Yeah, their warranties got voided pretty quickly.

--R

Tom Hargrave wrote:

American industrial products that went "boom" upon delivery?

  
  

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Tom Hargrave]

American industrial products that went "boom" upon delivery?

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rich Thomas
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 8:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

My neighbor in Massachusetts had many hours in B-17s, and visited 
Germany several times in them, making some deliveries of American 
industrial products, but never got the opportunity to stay any length of 
time.  He was also afraid of heights, couldn't climb a 6ft ladder, but 
had no problem in the left seat with the considerable excitement going 
on all around.  He had no explanation for that contradiction.

--R

Walt Lasher wrote:
>   I've got 48 minutes logged in the right seat of a B-17. It was a
> test flight in Florida. It was converted to a crop duster (actually the
> screw worm). I would have to look it up but seems to me it was about  the
> early 70's. Sorta' one of my life highlights.  I got some time in: UC-78
> (T-50, bamboo bomber),  DHC-2,
> DHC-3,  Beach D-18 (C-45),  Grumman Goose (G-21A), Douglas DC-3.  
> All have the Round engines. NOTHING like the sound of a Round Engine.
>
> W
>   


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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Trampas]

I personal get nervous on back of a motorcycle, but if I am driving I have
no problems. 

I also get nervous riding in little Hondas, aka portable coffins, as such
when coworkers and I got to lunch we take the big Mercedes. 

Few months back I had to ride to DC, from Raleigh NC, in a Acura want to be
sedan/sports car. I ached for days. Did the trip last week in W126 and it
was actually fun and comfortable. 

Trampas

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of David Brodbeck
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 2:00 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

Rich Thomas wrote:
> My neighbor in Massachusetts had many hours in B-17s, and visited 
> Germany several times in them, making some deliveries of American 
> industrial products, but never got the opportunity to stay any length of 
> time.  He was also afraid of heights, couldn't climb a 6ft ladder, but 
> had no problem in the left seat with the considerable excitement going 
> on all around.  He had no explanation for that contradiction.
>   

They're really two different experiences.  You can't fall off an
airplane...at least not most of them. ;)  You've always got a
solid-looking floor under you.  Psychologically speaking a ladder feels
much more precarious.

I've also known pilots who got nervous on commercial flights.  It was a
control issue, for them.  Kind of like people who drive fine but get
anxious when someone else is at the wheel.

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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[David Brodbeck]

Rich Thomas wrote:
> My neighbor in Massachusetts had many hours in B-17s, and visited 
> Germany several times in them, making some deliveries of American 
> industrial products, but never got the opportunity to stay any length of 
> time.  He was also afraid of heights, couldn't climb a 6ft ladder, but 
> had no problem in the left seat with the considerable excitement going 
> on all around.  He had no explanation for that contradiction.
>   

They're really two different experiences.  You can't fall off an
airplane...at least not most of them. ;)  You've always got a
solid-looking floor under you.  Psychologically speaking a ladder feels
much more precarious.

I've also known pilots who got nervous on commercial flights.  It was a
control issue, for them.  Kind of like people who drive fine but get
anxious when someone else is at the wheel.

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Rich Thomas]

My neighbor in Massachusetts had many hours in B-17s, and visited 
Germany several times in them, making some deliveries of American 
industrial products, but never got the opportunity to stay any length of 
time.  He was also afraid of heights, couldn't climb a 6ft ladder, but 
had no problem in the left seat with the considerable excitement going 
on all around.  He had no explanation for that contradiction.


--R

Walt Lasher wrote:

I've got 48 minutes logged in the right seat of a B-17. It was a
test flight in Florida. It was converted to a crop duster (actually the
screw worm). I would have to look it up but seems to me it was about  the
early 70's. Sorta' one of my life highlights.  I got some time in: UC-78
(T-50, bamboo bomber),  DHC-2,
DHC-3,  Beach D-18 (C-45),  Grumman Goose (G-21A), Douglas DC-3.  
All have the Round engines. NOTHING like the sound of a Round Engine.


W
  

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[E M]

Sounds great!!  I envy those who can fly.  I never tire of hearing stories.
:-)

Zeb

On 22/01/07, Walt Lasher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I've got 48 minutes logged in the right seat of a B-17. It was a
test flight in Florida. It was converted to a crop duster (actually the
screw worm). I would have to look it up but seems to me it was about  the
early 70's. Sorta' one of my life highlights.  I got some time in: UC-78
(T-50, bamboo bomber),  DHC-2,
DHC-3,  Beach D-18 (C-45),  Grumman Goose (G-21A), Douglas DC-3.
All have the Round engines. NOTHING like the sound of a Round Engine.

Walt Lasher
Seattle
W140 S350
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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[David Brodbeck]

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 08:07:53 -0800, Jim Cathey wrote
> Probably the same plane that flew over our house last fall.
> Loud, I recall that.  And shiny.  My 5yo boy recognized it
> from a book of military planes that grandpa had given him.
> Aren't too many operable B17's left, and I know a guy that
> bought a ride in it.  (Not that day, however.)

I used to live in Ypsilanti, MI, not far from Willow Run Airport.  The 
Yankee Air Museum was based there, in a WWII-era wooden hanger, until it 
burned down a few years ago.  I used to hear their B17 fly low over my 
apartment on a fairly regular basis.  The sound was unmistakable, to say the 
least.

I believe they were able to push the B17 out of the hangar before the fire 
got out of control, so it's presumably still flying somewhere.

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[David Brodbeck]

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:21:31 -0500, Allan Streib wrote
> Heh.  Yeah.  We had a B-17 on display at the local airport here a
> couple of years ago.  The were offering rides, but it was too rich 
> for my blood (couple of hundred $$ for a 30 minute flight).

I did spend a fair chunk of change for a short hop in a 1929 Ford Trimotor 
once, but it was worth it.  Now there's an airplane that seems primitive 
until you put it in context.  Sure, it's rough and noisy and the pilot flies 
with the window open and his elbow on the sill.  But it was built a scant 25 
years after the Wright Flyer made its first tentative hop, and it could fly 
for 500 miles at 100 mph while carrying a dozen people or a ton and a half 
of cargo.  It's like if you could buy a ticket on the Space Shuttle today.

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[E M]

I think there are one or two companies like this where you can still hitch a
ride.

http://www.b17.org/

There was a company offering rides in P51s too.  I helped out a little with
the restoration of a later model Lanc. Well, the resto is still going on.
Just loved those engines.  I believe the ones in the perticlar plane were
made under contract by Maytag, but would have to double check.

Zeb

On 21/01/07, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Heh.  Yeah.  We had a B-17 on display at the local airport here a
> couple of years ago.  The were offering rides, but it was too rich for
> my blood (couple of hundred $$ for a 30 minute flight).

Probably the same plane that flew over our house last fall.
Loud, I recall that.  And shiny.  My 5yo boy recognized it
from a book of military planes that grandpa had given him.
Aren't too many operable B17's left, and I know a guy that
bought a ride in it.  (Not that day, however.)

Don't think I'd have liked hearing a flock of those
coming my way in the 40's!

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[OK Don]

Speaking of B-17's - this is a great book!
http://www.amazon.com/Wrong-Stuff-Adventures-Misadventures-Aviator/dp/0806134224/sr=8-3/qid=1169403401/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/105-4223530-6188429?ie=UTF8&s=books
or
http://tinyurl.com/2zbbmg



No one was surprised by a high altitude air raid, you could hear them
for some minutes before they arrived, although exact location wouldn't
have been easy to determine.  A couple hundred (or a thousand) B17s
thundering along would shake the ground!.

Peter


--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just
sit there."
Will Rogers
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Peter Frederick]

Yeah, the Confederate Air Force has what I believe to be the last 
operating one -- they have been retired for some years now from 
waterbomber work out west (so have their converted Lockheed Hercules, I 
think).


The exhaust comes out of the bottom of the engine nacelle straight off 
the turbocharger turbine -- the blades of the turbine are visible, as I 
remember.


Some of the noise comes from the props, too -- and the old British 
squadrons were much worse for noise as they didn't synchronize the 
engines for reasons I don't wish to speculate upon.  Synchronizing the 
props greatly reduces the vibration on the plane and reduces the noise 
of each individual plane some.


No one was surprised by a high altitude air raid, you could hear them 
for some minutes before they arrived, although exact location wouldn't 
have been easy to determine.  A couple hundred (or a thousand) B17s 
thundering along would shake the ground!.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Jim Cathey]

Heh.  Yeah.  We had a B-17 on display at the local airport here a
couple of years ago.  The were offering rides, but it was too rich for
my blood (couple of hundred $$ for a 30 minute flight).


Probably the same plane that flew over our house last fall.
Loud, I recall that.  And shiny.  My 5yo boy recognized it
from a book of military planes that grandpa had given him.
Aren't too many operable B17's left, and I know a guy that
bought a ride in it.  (Not that day, however.)

Don't think I'd have liked hearing a flock of those
coming my way in the 40's!

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Allan Streib]

David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Gotta love that rough, cammy idle.  To me it somehow suggests raw
> power better than the whine of an idling jet engine.

Heh.  Yeah.  We had a B-17 on display at the local airport here a
couple of years ago.  The were offering rides, but it was too rich for
my blood (couple of hundred $$ for a 30 minute flight).

When the plane was sitting between flights they had pans under the
engines to catch the dripping oil.

But yeah, that's exactly the word for the sound of those engines as
they wound up for takeoff -- or even just taxiing -- "power".

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

I missed the M100 reference.  Yes, the 6.9 is a M100, but not all M100's 
are dry sump, only the 6.9.  The 6.3 is normal.


Loren Faeth wrote:


I thought I covered that by mentioning the M100  Isn't the 6.9 an M100?



--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
 (2x) 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL,
 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D 2.2,
 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[David Brodbeck]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, E M wrote:

> If you even hear a radial idle on the ground, you think they're going to
> fall apart. hee hee

Gotta love that rough, cammy idle.  To me it somehow suggests raw power
better than the whine of an idling jet engine.

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[kevin kraly]

When I lived in Redmond, OR, I often heard the old forest fire retardant 
tanker planes fly overhead.  They are 40's or 50's vintage planes, and they 
had quite a growl.  It's quite possible that they were powered by radial 
engines from the sounds of them.


Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 266K miles, Ursula 

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Rich Thomas]

Yeah, it was pretty clapped out, or it looked that way.  But the thing 
flew and hauled the mail night after night, so I guess it was OK.


--R

OK Don wrote:

Those mail D18s didn't get the greatest maintenance!

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines (was: Number of cylinders)

[OK Don]

Yes - and they were timed 2 (IIRC) degrees apart. Even at only
2200RPM, it took a long time to burn that volume of fuel/air - helped
to start the flame on both sides of the chamber.



Aaah redundant plugs and magnetoes I guess?
-j.


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--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just
sit there."
Will Rogers
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[OK Don]

Yup - you covered it.

On 1/19/07, Loren Faeth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I thought I covered that by mentioning the M100  Isn't the 6.9 an M100?



--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just
sit there."
Will Rogers
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Loren Faeth]

I thought I covered that by mentioning the M100  Isn't the 6.9 an M100?

At 07:56 PM 1/19/2007, you wrote:

dont forget the 6.9 has a dry sump.

LarryT wrote:

> you wrote:<< the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the
>
>>real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls
>>Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines >>
>
>
> And,Drum roll please,  T D,.  --   the greatest & most famous
> sportscar of all time has a dry sump oil system - the Porsche 911.  The 
oil

> level is checked with the engine idling.  ;-)
>
> Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
> www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
> Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
> PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
> Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
> Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
> .
> - Original Message -
> From: "Loren Faeth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines
>
>
>
>>The dry sump was also used on the M100 engine, Triumph motorcycles and
>>lots
>>of aircraft applications.   I think the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the
>>real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls
>>Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines of WWII were all dry sump
>>
>>
>>At 08:09 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is
>>>>pretty obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would
>>>>seemingly accumulate in the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...
>>>
>>>LOL.. I was wondering exactly the same thing this morning...
>>>
>>>Allan
>>>--
>>>1983 300D
>>>1966 230
>>>
>>>___
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>>
>>Loren Faeth
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  (2x) 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL,
  87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D 2.2,
  81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Loren Faeth 

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines (was: Number of cylinders)

[John W. Reames III]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, OK Don wrote:

> Ours didn't leak very much - there was a fair amount of smoke on
> starting, but it didn't last very long. I never tried to figure out
> how they kept all the oil from ending up in the bottom cylinders. The
> spark plug holes (two per cylinder) were horizontal (hemi combustion
> chambers) and 180 degrees apart - one directly in front, and other
> directly at the back.
Aaah redundant plugs and magnetoes I guess?
-j.

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[OK Don]

Those mail D18s didn't get the greatest maintenance! Our Jacobs 300HP
R755(?) used less than a of oil pint and 16 gallons of gas an hour at
160 mph in the Cessna 195 (N9895A).

On 1/19/07, Rich Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

My college summer job was at the airport, a ramp rat.  I used to fill up
the old Beech D18 from a night of hauling the mail, would take a 5 gal
can of oil up on each wing and pour in 3-4 gal in each radial engine.
Not sure where it went once it went down the hole (I know where the part
that missed the hole went!) but whatever the system was, it burned and
blew out a LOT of oil.  "Check the gas and fill the oil!"  This was a
lot of fun on a dark rainy night, oil and rain and skinny me on a
sloping wing with a 50lb (or was it a 100lb?) bucket of oil...

When the pilot fired those suckers up (and it was an art to get them to
fire) every mosquito with a mile died.  First one or two cylinders would
catch and sputter, then a couple more, then all of them eventually,
amidst much drama of belching smoke, backfires and starter protest.
Sometimes you would get some gas/oil fire in the stacks, a blowtorch
until the rpms came up and the props blew out the fire.  The pilot would
laugh like hell.

I was outside the other day, and heard this sound that triggered
memories -- looked up and there it was!  A Beech D18 growling overhead
at about 1000 ft!  Nothing else sounds like one.  Googling shows they
are Pratt & Whitney R-985 AN-1 or AN-3 nine-cylinder, air-cooled radial,
450 hp each


--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just
sit there."
Will Rogers
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines (was: Number of cylinders)

[OK Don]

Ours didn't leak very much - there was a fair amount of smoke on
starting, but it didn't last very long. I never tried to figure out
how they kept all the oil from ending up in the bottom cylinders. The
spark plug holes (two per cylinder) were horizontal (hemi combustion
chambers) and 180 degrees apart - one directly in front, and other
directly at the back.

On 1/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Sounds like it would 1) leak a lot, and 2) smoke even more

Nifty feature, that self-hydrolocking.  I guess the spark plug threads on the 
bottom cylinders wear out sooner than those on the upper ones :P

Fun Fun!
-j.


--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just
sit there."
Will Rogers
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[E M]

It probably has a rad too.  :-)

Zeb

On 19/01/07, Darrell W. Sigmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I have a 911 and it does not have a dry sump!!!
DWS

Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
> dont forget the 6.9 has a dry sump.
>
> LarryT wrote:
>
>> you wrote:<< the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the
>>
>>> real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons,
Rolls
>>> Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines >>
>>
>> And,Drum roll please,  T D,.  --   the greatest & most
famous
>> sportscar of all time has a dry sump oil system - the Porsche 911.  The
oil
>> level is checked with the engine idling.  ;-)
>>
>> Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
>> www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
>> Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
>> PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
>> Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
>> Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
>> .
>> - Original Message -----
>> From: "Loren Faeth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
>> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines
>>
>>
>>
>>> The dry sump was also used on the M100 engine, Triumph motorcycles and
>>> lots
>>> of aircraft applications.   I think the 300SL (not the 90s one, but
the
>>> real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons,
Rolls
>>> Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines of WWII were all dry sump
>>>
>>>
>>> At 08:09 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is
>>>>> pretty obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would
>>>>> seemingly accumulate in the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...
>>>> LOL.. I was wondering exactly the same thing this morning...
>>>>
>>>> Allan
>>>> --
>>>> 1983 300D
>>>> 1966 230
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
>>>> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>
>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>> http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> Loren Faeth
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
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>>>
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>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.0/639 - Release Date:
1/18/2007
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>

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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[E M]

Didn't the old Avro Shackleton have a dual prop setup too?  I know the old
Merlin engines had about a 50 gal per hour burn, so in a Lanc, that was 200
gallons per hour. wow!  I think they built them (radial) lose for a reason.
I think Colt built their 1911 .45s that way for similar reasons.  If you
even hear a radial idle on the ground, you think they're going to fall
apart. hee hee

Zeb > air cooled 911 engine, but built a little tighter.  Then again, not as
far to fall if it stops working. :-)

On 19/01/07, Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I heard from a WWII airman that a B-26 used 50 gal of fuel and 5 gal of
oil and hour in cruise flight, more at full throttle.

Those old radial engines were "sloppy" -- oil dribbled out the pushrod
tubes, the head gaskets, and jug seals, and they do burn quite a bit.
1940's technology, mostly -- cars used a lot of oil in those days, too.

Newer design are better, but so long as they are air cooled, they run
pretty hot by water cooled standards, and it's hard to keep them sealed
up.

They all use dry sumps -- there is an oil collection ring on either
side of the single crankpin where the oil collects and it's pumped form
there back into the main tank where the air bubbles separate out.  The
pressure feed pump draws off the bottom of the main tank instead of the
crankcase.

Some designs used "stacked" pumps (scavenger on top, feed on bottom) on
a common shaft -- that way you at least had sump oiling.

When the feed pump shears, two things used to happen:  The pilot lost
control of the propellor pitch (oil pressure operated) and the engine
seized from oil starvation and usually the oil on the engine caught
fire from the heat -- there are plenty of stories about this.  Pan Am
and BOAC both had at least one instance where the magnesium propellor
housing caught fire on a seized engine at altitude when the oil
pressure dropped too fast to feather out the prop -- must have been
quite a sight, burning magnesium spinning off the blades.  Luckily, the
housing failed and the prop spun off and away from the airframe before
the wing burned throught on that Boeing 377, and the fire went out.

An oil pressure failure caused Howard Hughes to crash the experimental
twin interceptor during WWII -- an oil seal failed on the
counter-rotating prop system causing loss of pressure and inadvertent
reverse pitch on one side.  Needless to say, the plane instantly became
unflyable with power on that engine.  He'd probably been OK if he'd
understood what was going on in time to shut the engine off, but it's
rather hard, I hear, to figure that out during a flight emergency

Odd that only the Russians managed to get a reliable counter-rotating
dual prop setup to work during the 50's -- very well, too as the
Tupolev Bear uses them, along with any number of freighter designs.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Darrell W. Sigmon]

I have a 911 and it does not have a dry sump!!!
DWS

Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:

dont forget the 6.9 has a dry sump.

LarryT wrote:


you wrote:<< the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the


real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls
Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines >>


And,Drum roll please,  T D,.  --   the greatest & most famous 
sportscar of all time has a dry sump oil system - the Porsche 911.  The oil 
level is checked with the engine idling.  ;-)


Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Loren Faeth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines



The dry sump was also used on the M100 engine, Triumph motorcycles and 
lots

of aircraft applications.   I think the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the
real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls
Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines of WWII were all dry sump


At 08:09 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is
pretty obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would
seemingly accumulate in the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...

LOL.. I was wondering exactly the same thing this morning...

Allan
--
1983 300D
1966 230

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Loren Faeth


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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

dont forget the 6.9 has a dry sump.

LarryT wrote:


you wrote:<< the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the


real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls
Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines >>



And,Drum roll please,  T D,.  --   the greatest & most famous 
sportscar of all time has a dry sump oil system - the Porsche 911.  The oil 
level is checked with the engine idling.  ;-)


Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Loren Faeth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines



The dry sump was also used on the M100 engine, Triumph motorcycles and 
lots

of aircraft applications.   I think the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the
real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls
Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines of WWII were all dry sump


At 08:09 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is
pretty obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would
seemingly accumulate in the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...


LOL.. I was wondering exactly the same thing this morning...

Allan
--
1983 300D
1966 230

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Loren Faeth


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--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
 (2x) 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL,
 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D 2.2,
 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Peter Frederick]

I heard from a WWII airman that a B-26 used 50 gal of fuel and 5 gal of 
oil and hour in cruise flight, more at full throttle.


Those old radial engines were "sloppy" -- oil dribbled out the pushrod 
tubes, the head gaskets, and jug seals, and they do burn quite a bit.  
1940's technology, mostly -- cars used a lot of oil in those days, too.


Newer design are better, but so long as they are air cooled, they run 
pretty hot by water cooled standards, and it's hard to keep them sealed 
up.


They all use dry sumps -- there is an oil collection ring on either 
side of the single crankpin where the oil collects and it's pumped form 
there back into the main tank where the air bubbles separate out.  The 
pressure feed pump draws off the bottom of the main tank instead of the 
crankcase.


Some designs used "stacked" pumps (scavenger on top, feed on bottom) on 
a common shaft -- that way you at least had sump oiling.


When the feed pump shears, two things used to happen:  The pilot lost 
control of the propellor pitch (oil pressure operated) and the engine 
seized from oil starvation and usually the oil on the engine caught 
fire from the heat -- there are plenty of stories about this.  Pan Am 
and BOAC both had at least one instance where the magnesium propellor 
housing caught fire on a seized engine at altitude when the oil 
pressure dropped too fast to feather out the prop -- must have been 
quite a sight, burning magnesium spinning off the blades.  Luckily, the 
housing failed and the prop spun off and away from the airframe before 
the wing burned throught on that Boeing 377, and the fire went out.


An oil pressure failure caused Howard Hughes to crash the experimental 
twin interceptor during WWII -- an oil seal failed on the 
counter-rotating prop system causing loss of pressure and inadvertent 
reverse pitch on one side.  Needless to say, the plane instantly became 
unflyable with power on that engine.  He'd probably been OK if he'd 
understood what was going on in time to shut the engine off, but it's 
rather hard, I hear, to figure that out during a flight emergency


Odd that only the Russians managed to get a reliable counter-rotating 
dual prop setup to work during the 50's -- very well, too as the 
Tupolev Bear uses them, along with any number of freighter designs.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Rich Thomas]

Sometimes that isn't a bad thing!

--R

LarryT wrote:

Thanks Rich - my memory isn;t what is used to be. ;-)
  
  

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Jim Cathey]

and to get the planed loaded properly - we used 8#s as a number to get 
us

close when calculating fuel weight.


Or as my dad always said: "A pint's a pound the world around."
He had flight training, in the reserves.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[LarryT]

Thanks Rich - my memory isn;t what is used to be. ;-)
I climbed in a cargo DC3 on the ramp once - Geez, just climbing from the 
door to the cockpit was a PITA - loading cargo must have been a LOT of fun.


OTOH, I was invited into a early Learjet for a lookaround and was amazed at 
how *small* it was.  Beautiful - but tiny. It had been doing touch & go's 
for a while and we (my instructor & I) hoped to catch a ride - but when we 
caught up with him he was done for the day ;-(.



Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines



Avgas and JetA weigh in at 6#/gal, water is 8ish, I would guess oil is
closer to 6, maybe a bit more.  A big bucket swinging around on a wet
oily wing seems to weigh a TON!

I got to fly once by happenstance (the steamer ran aground so we took
the plane) on the world's highest-time DC-3, in summer service with Cape
Air (might have been called something else back then) flying from
Hyannis to Nantucket.  It was gorgeous, original style interior with big
wide seats, 2x2, like an old Caddy.  She flew at a stately pace at about
500ft on the short hop over the Sound, those big radials making a very
comforting sound.  Probably still in service somewhere.  As a ramp rat I
got to load freight on some old DC-3s, NOT FUN as the tail sits low and
the nose high, bucking big boxes up that aluminum deck and trying to get
them to stay put til you could tie them down was a chore.  I recall one
still had the "radio shack" installed behind the cockpit, with the
original tube radios.  It was quite a sight.  The pilot said the owner
was sentimental...

Here are some sounds
http://www.centercomp.com/cgi-bin/dc3/sounds?13

A lot of old D18s and even DC-3s were converted to turbine engines, D18s
on tricycle gear with a nose wheel, they performed really well but
looked strange.  I would love to have a DC-3.  I was at a car show a few
years ago, a couple there had a couple old cars of some sort, I
overheard them talking to someone they knew about having to sell some of
their cars and planes, including the DC-3 (the woman said sadly "I loved
that plane"), when the "all bidness" went sour a few years before.  I
didn't know whether to be sad for them or not, though they seemed like
regular folks who happened to have some varying fortunes (exceeding mine
though).

--R

LarryT wrote:

Hi Rich -
Great story - BTW, a 5 gal of oil weighs *about* 48 #'s.  Back when I was
flying we had to calc the weight of everything so we wouldn't be 
overweight

and to get the planed loaded properly - we used 8#s as a number to get us
close when calculating fuel weight.  Those Cessna 150s I learned in were 
the

240D of airplanes -

Those old Beechs are classic planes with a beautiful shape - like the old
DC3 which is used a lot still - after it was developed 60+ years ago --  
just
like the W123 in its various guises will be with us & loved by us for 
many

years to come -





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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[LarryT]

you wrote:<< the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the

real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls
Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines >>


And,Drum roll please,  T D,.  --   the greatest & most famous 
sportscar of all time has a dry sump oil system - the Porsche 911.  The oil 
level is checked with the engine idling.  ;-)


Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Loren Faeth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines


The dry sump was also used on the M100 engine, Triumph motorcycles and 
lots

of aircraft applications.   I think the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the
real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls
Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines of WWII were all dry sump


At 08:09 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is
> pretty obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would
> seemingly accumulate in the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...

LOL.. I was wondering exactly the same thing this morning...

Allan
--
1983 300D
1966 230

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Loren Faeth


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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Loren Faeth]

The dry sump was also used on the M100 engine, Triumph motorcycles and lots 
of aircraft applications.   I think the 300SL (not the 90s one, but the 
real 300SL) had a dry sump.  I believe the water cooled Allisons, Rolls 
Royce and Daimler-Benz V-12 aircraft engines of WWII were all dry sump



At 08:09 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is
> pretty obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would
> seemingly accumulate in the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...

LOL.. I was wondering exactly the same thing this morning...

Allan
--
1983 300D
1966 230

___
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Loren Faeth 

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[LarryT]

Hi Rich -
Great story - BTW, a 5 gal of oil weighs *about* 48 #'s.  Back when I was 
flying we had to calc the weight of everything so we wouldn't be overweight 
and to get the planed loaded properly - we used 8#s as a number to get us 
close when calculating fuel weight.  Those Cessna 150s I learned in were the 
240D of airplanes -


Those old Beechs are classic planes with a beautiful shape - like the old 
DC3 which is used a lot still - after it was developed 60+ years ago -- just 
like the W123 in its various guises will be with us & loved by us for many 
years to come -


Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines



My college summer job was at the airport, a ramp rat.  I used to fill up
the old Beech D18 from a night of hauling the mail, would take a 5 gal
can of oil up on each wing and pour in 3-4 gal in each radial engine.
Not sure where it went once it went down the hole (I know where the part
that missed the hole went!) but whatever the system was, it burned and
blew out a LOT of oil.  "Check the gas and fill the oil!"  This was a
lot of fun on a dark rainy night, oil and rain and skinny me on a
sloping wing with a 50lb (or was it a 100lb?) bucket of oil...

When the pilot fired those suckers up (and it was an art to get them to
fire) every mosquito with a mile died.  First one or two cylinders would
catch and sputter, then a couple more, then all of them eventually,
amidst much drama of belching smoke, backfires and starter protest.
Sometimes you would get some gas/oil fire in the stacks, a blowtorch
until the rpms came up and the props blew out the fire.  The pilot would
laugh like hell.

I was outside the other day, and heard this sound that triggered
memories -- looked up and there it was!  A Beech D18 growling overhead
at about 1000 ft!  Nothing else sounds like one.  Googling shows they
are Pratt & Whitney R-985 AN-1 or AN-3 nine-cylinder, air-cooled radial,
450 hp each

--R

OK Don wrote:

The sump is a separate tank - I think they call these 'dry sump'
engines. Oil doe s collect in the bottom cylinders while it's sitting
- you have slowly crank the engine through a couple of turns before
trying to start it (aircraft application). They have been known to
blow a cylinder or two off when this step is omitted.

On 1/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is 
pretty obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would seemingly 
accumulate in the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...

-j.





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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines

[Rich Thomas]

My college summer job was at the airport, a ramp rat.  I used to fill up 
the old Beech D18 from a night of hauling the mail, would take a 5 gal 
can of oil up on each wing and pour in 3-4 gal in each radial engine.  
Not sure where it went once it went down the hole (I know where the part 
that missed the hole went!) but whatever the system was, it burned and 
blew out a LOT of oil.  "Check the gas and fill the oil!"  This was a 
lot of fun on a dark rainy night, oil and rain and skinny me on a 
sloping wing with a 50lb (or was it a 100lb?) bucket of oil...


When the pilot fired those suckers up (and it was an art to get them to 
fire) every mosquito with a mile died.  First one or two cylinders would 
catch and sputter, then a couple more, then all of them eventually, 
amidst much drama of belching smoke, backfires and starter protest.  
Sometimes you would get some gas/oil fire in the stacks, a blowtorch 
until the rpms came up and the props blew out the fire.  The pilot would 
laugh like hell.


I was outside the other day, and heard this sound that triggered 
memories -- looked up and there it was!  A Beech D18 growling overhead 
at about 1000 ft!  Nothing else sounds like one.  Googling shows they 
are Pratt & Whitney R-985 AN-1 or AN-3 nine-cylinder, air-cooled radial, 
450 hp each


--R

OK Don wrote:

The sump is a separate tank - I think they call these 'dry sump'
engines. Oil doe s collect in the bottom cylinders while it's sitting
- you have slowly crank the engine through a couple of turns before
trying to start it (aircraft application). They have been known to
blow a cylinder or two off when this step is omitted.

On 1/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is pretty 
obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would seemingly accumulate in 
the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...
-j.



  

Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines (was: Number of cylinders)

[jwreames]

Sounds like it would 1) leak a lot, and 2) smoke even more

Nifty feature, that self-hydrolocking.  I guess the spark plug threads on the 
bottom cylinders wear out sooner than those on the upper ones :P

Fun Fun!
-j.
--
John Reames
1985 300d (223K "Gerta")
1991 Cherokee (149K "the fishbowl")
1999 E300Dt (140K "Hans") (the leaky one)
1999 E300Dt (106K "Frantz") (the squeaky one)

-- Original message -- 
From: "OK Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> The sump is a separate tank - I think they call these 'dry sump' 
> engines. Oil doe s collect in the bottom cylinders while it's sitting 
> - you have slowly crank the engine through a couple of turns before 
> trying to start it (aircraft application). They have been known to 
> blow a cylinder or two off when this step is omitted. 
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X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:45:16 -

Thanks all who responded to my question.
It did cross my mind to leave the block heater plugged
in all night and while I was working on it.

I thought by then the engine temp should even out.

As far as the cold temp as long as I get out of the wind it's
really not that bad, and after the fingers get that fat numb feeling.
Right Lt. Don. Where has he been lately or have I just missed his postings?

I think it bothers my back more in the cold from  leaning over tho.

_
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Re: [MBZ] [OT] Radial Engines (was: Number of cylinders)

[OK Don]

The sump is a separate tank - I think they call these 'dry sump'
engines. Oil doe s collect in the bottom cylinders while it's sitting
- you have slowly crank the engine through a couple of turns before
trying to start it (aircraft application). They have been known to
blow a cylinder or two off when this step is omitted.

On 1/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

What I'm wondering is how the lubrication system works, since it is pretty 
obvious that you can't have a sump and the oil would seemingly accumulate in 
the bottom piston(s)/cylinder(s)...
-j.


--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just
sit there."
Will Rogers
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager