Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Dieselhead]

money is an issue.  the idea of unlimited healthcare for anyone once they
enter the system in any way (which is most people) is insane and
unsustainable.  we need death panels and a sensible rationing of
healthcare.  we need similar measures throughout society unless you think
the unlimited printing of money to pay for it all is going to work out in
the end


BBZZZT  Wrong.   healthcare is not a delegated authority 
in the constitution.  We need people to pay real money out of their 
own pocket for whatever they want and/or choose.  Doctor, herbs, 
pills, hamburgers, rusty cars or whatever they choose.  No need for 
unelected death panels.


That cures most of the ills of the world, and most of the ills of this country.


read The Law by
Frederic Bastiat available free for download at fee.org or mises.org

mao


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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Dieselhead]

 Again, read The Law by
Frederic Bastiat available free for download at fee.org or mises.org
mao


Finally, The leader sends the reading list.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Dieselhead]

Article in the daily rag outlined the exchange options.  The table 
showed the three levels of plan (gold, sliver, bronze) and age 
groups (20's 40's 60's).  Based on the level of coverage I suffer 
with now, I will be paying more as a single user than what I am 
charged monthly to cover the whole family.  So, Osama care in my 
case will cost me three times as much.  To make it economical, I 
should drop all coverage and pay the tax penalty. 


clay


It is cheaper, cuz kB sez so.  Ain't it right?

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Dieselhead]

Tain't American, that is fer sure.  Does reek of stalin, mao, Hogo, 
Batista, eva, fox, et al. and every other tin horn dictator on earth 
from the beginning of time.




Exactly.  It wouldn't be a bad idea if it weren't for the exemtions they
allow themselves.  That is just wrong.

Mike
On Aug 2, 2013 5:34 PM, "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:





 Of course the Democrats are really saying "Make everybody an even level
 of poor" which isn't a great solution either. Still I guess its marginally
 better than no solution at all.

 -Curt




 NO, that is not correct. it is "Make everybody BUT US and OUR ELITE
 BUDDIES (who know better than you) an even level of poor. While WE get
 RICHER on your backs"


 > You been scammed.  It sounds like you believe the propoganda.
 >


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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Michael Canfield]

X2

Mike
On Aug 4, 2013 6:17 PM, "Mountain Man"  wrote:

> Allan wrote:
> > Pancreatic cancer is
> > pretty much a death sentence no matter what you do...
>
> Shoulda/woulda/coulda - Rick Simpson oil.
> mao
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Mountain Man]

Allan wrote:
> Pancreatic cancer is
> pretty much a death sentence no matter what you do...

Shoulda/woulda/coulda - Rick Simpson oil.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Rich Thomas]

My wife had all kinds of observations about Jobs and his treatments.  
Suffice to say the course was not what she would recommend or approve of.


--R


On 8/3/13 10:32 PM, Rick Knoble wrote:

On Aug 3, 2013, at 4:43 PM, "Mountain Man"  wrote:


No $$? - we wave goodbye to
you


Money didn't buy Steve Jobs much more time. Or Mickey Mantel. Or Elvis. Or 
Michael Jackson. Or _ .
When your times up...

Side note. I is my understanding that when Steve Jobs first learned of his 
illness he went the herbs and roots holistic healing route, instead of going 
with traditional oncological methods. That probably cost him several years of 
life. Oops.

Rick
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

When my grandmother was diagnosed with it they gave her 6 months, she lived 2 
weeks

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 3, 2013, at 9:44 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:

> Rick Knoble  writes:
> 
>> Side note. I is my understanding that when Steve Jobs first learned of
>> his illness he went the herbs and roots holistic healing route,
>> instead of going with traditional oncological methods. That probably
>> cost him several years of life. Oops.
> 
> He did, but the affect on his lifespan is unknown.  Pancreatic cancer is
> pretty much a death sentence no matter what you do (or don't do).
> 
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Streib
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Dan Penoff]

I have a friend who had the same diagnosis as Jobs. Within a week he had the 
procedure doctors had recommended to Jobs.

Three years later he's healthy with no sign of cancer.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 3, 2013, at 10:44 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:

> Rick Knoble  writes:
> 
>> Side note. I is my understanding that when Steve Jobs first learned of
>> his illness he went the herbs and roots holistic healing route,
>> instead of going with traditional oncological methods. That probably
>> cost him several years of life. Oops.
> 
> He did, but the affect on his lifespan is unknown.  Pancreatic cancer is
> pretty much a death sentence no matter what you do (or don't do).
> 
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Streib
> 
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Allan Streib]

Rick Knoble  writes:

> Side note. I is my understanding that when Steve Jobs first learned of
> his illness he went the herbs and roots holistic healing route,
> instead of going with traditional oncological methods. That probably
> cost him several years of life. Oops.

He did, but the affect on his lifespan is unknown.  Pancreatic cancer is
pretty much a death sentence no matter what you do (or don't do).

Allan
-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Rick Knoble]

On Aug 3, 2013, at 4:43 PM, "Mountain Man"  wrote:

> No $$? - we wave goodbye to
> you


Money didn't buy Steve Jobs much more time. Or Mickey Mantel. Or Elvis. Or 
Michael Jackson. Or _ .
When your times up...

Side note. I is my understanding that when Steve Jobs first learned of his 
illness he went the herbs and roots holistic healing route, instead of going 
with traditional oncological methods. That probably cost him several years of 
life. Oops. 

Rick
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[clay]

We had to bring in legal documentation before the dang catholics would allow my 
father to die in their care.  Every person giving care was made to read and 
verbalize their understanding of the document.  Sadly, they would not speed him 
on his way to go play harps at the pearly gates

clay

who does not get off on harp music


On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:30 AM, Curt Raymond wrote:

> I agree with you entirely except:
> 
> 1. Most people are idiots or rather they're completely uneducated about 
> anything having to do with their health.
> 
> 2. Good information is hard to find even if you are somewhat savvy.
> 
> 3. Almost nobody has these discussions in advance.
> 
> For example I've got a pretty good handle on how my folks feel, my mom is a 
> death and dying nurse in a veterans nursing home so we've had some pretty 
> candid conversations. My wife's folks though have provided us pretty much 
> zero idea and while they don't refuse to talk about it they slide around like 
> they're greased. My wife is working on a plan to pin them down but its taken 
> a ton of effort on her part.
> 
> Even if the guidelines I mentioned before weren't for doctors to stop 
> providing care it would be helpful for families when accessing how far they 
> should go.
> 
> Ahh, another for instance, my grandmother had her hip replaced 10 years ago 
> when she was 83, came through with flying colors. Last year she was 
> complaining about her knees, wanted them replaced too. The doctor told her 
> no, that at 92 it didn't make any sense and she's going to have to get used 
> to some knee pain. We like that Doc...
> 
> 
> -Curt
> 
> 
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 21:06:16 -0400
> From: "Scott Ritchey" 
> To: "'Mercedes Discussion List'" 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
> Message-ID: <8E278DAFC4684E3681AA0A642B87F0B2@ScottPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"
> 
> 
> Clearly, there is a point where the quality of life (or absence thereof) is
> such that death is preferable to being a specimen for the medical
> establishment to practice on.  I've been down that road with pets and family
> members (both parents, for example). But who gets to decide when your life
> isn't worth living?  Family doctor?  A committee in DC?  Next of Kin?
> Arbitrary age limits?  The patient?  Frankly, I believe most patients and
> families would make the best decision provided they had good information and
> had considered such issues seriously long before any decision is needed.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt
> Raymond
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 5:04 PM
> To: Diesel List
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
> 
> If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm saying we
> shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope you to the point
> where you don't hurt and we let nature take its course. Theres no point in
> treating the cancer or heart disease or whatever if your life sucks.
> 
> -Curt
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[clay]

My views on treatment were kept to myself.  I did as my parents desired, which 
was to attempt treatment.  Dad was ambulatory until the Fire Department came to 
cart him off to the hospital 14 hours before he bit it.

clay.

Who will self select for DNR and eliminate the need for treatment

On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:20 AM, Curt Raymond wrote:

> Because you can never cut costs if 80% of your spending goes to support 40% 
> of your population who are elderly and half a step away from death's door 
> anyway.
> What we really need is a clear set of guidelines that tell us things like, 
> "if you haven't been out of bed in the last 6 months we won't pursue cancer 
> treatment" because thats pointless.
> 
> I think most of the time its not the person deciding its their kids...
> 
> -Curt
> 
> 
> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 19:52:47 -0400
> From: Allan Streib 
> To: Diesel List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain
> 
> Curt Raymond  writes:
> 
>> If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm
>> saying we shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope
>> you to the point where you don't hurt and we let nature take its
>> course. Theres no point in treating the cancer or heart disease or
>> whatever if your life sucks.
> 
> Why not leave that decision up to the individual?  If someone else is
> deciding, that is a "death panel."  That all that phrase means.
> 
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Streib
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Mountain Man]

Scott wrote:
> I would put it differently.

Your "differently" was at a different time than today.  Today, the
primary commodity of all existence is $$.  No $$? - we wave goodbye to
you.  Go back further when we had docs that visited at your house and
did the work for eggs/beef/bacon.  Humanity lived and worked together.
 Humanity is not a concept today.  $$ rules all
activity/interest/community.  As drfatty said - it is a sad day and
there is zero vision of hope or change today.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Scott Ritchey]

"we need death panels and a sensible rationing of
healthcare."

I would put it differently.  We need a way to make smart cost-benefit
decisions concerning health care.  Historically, we had a way.  If you could
afford it (typically because you worked and saved or because loved ones did)
you could decide what to do.  I don't think that's all bad.


-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Hurst
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 12:12 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

money is an issue.  the idea of unlimited healthcare for anyone once they
enter the system in any way (which is most people) is insane and
unsustainable.  we need death panels and a sensible rationing of
healthcare.  we need similar measures throughout society unless you think
the unlimited printing of money to pay for it all is going to work out in
the end


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Mountain Man  wrote:

> clay wrote:
> > Butt here is a panel.  We are not allowed to pull aside the curtain and
> see them at work.
> >
> > They are the insurance miscreants
> >
> > The medical staff who slacks off on providing decent care
> >
> > The boys from Big Pharma, who price the medication out of reach, so as
> to make obscene profit
> >
> > The welfare and medicare schlubs who suck the economy dry and give
> nothing in return
> >
> > The hospital corporations who see no profit in filling a bed over paying
> executives like kings
> >
>
> All of whom see the large cache of $$ ready to be absorbed, so... they
> submit their hyped billings for payment.  Again, read The Law by
> Frederic Bastiat available free for download at fee.org or mises.org
> mao
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Mountain Man]

drfatty wrote:
> money is an issue.  the idea of unlimited healthcare for anyone once they
> enter the system in any way (which is most people) is insane and
> unsustainable.  we need death panels and a sensible rationing of
> healthcare.  we need similar measures throughout society unless you think
> the unlimited printing of money to pay for it all is going to work out in
> the end

Get back to your original expression on this thread.  We are wy
past any recovery.  Recovery means a return to former time.  We are on
the verge of military coup.  We are on the verge of big change of some
sort.  Recovery is a hope for cure - totally unrealistic.  Things have
progressed way beyond our imagination or ability to accomplish
anything sustainable.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Gary Hurst]

money is an issue.  the idea of unlimited healthcare for anyone once they
enter the system in any way (which is most people) is insane and
unsustainable.  we need death panels and a sensible rationing of
healthcare.  we need similar measures throughout society unless you think
the unlimited printing of money to pay for it all is going to work out in
the end


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Mountain Man  wrote:

> clay wrote:
> > Butt here is a panel.  We are not allowed to pull aside the curtain and
> see them at work.
> >
> > They are the insurance miscreants
> >
> > The medical staff who slacks off on providing decent care
> >
> > The boys from Big Pharma, who price the medication out of reach, so as
> to make obscene profit
> >
> > The welfare and medicare schlubs who suck the economy dry and give
> nothing in return
> >
> > The hospital corporations who see no profit in filling a bed over paying
> executives like kings
> >
>
> All of whom see the large cache of $$ ready to be absorbed, so... they
> submit their hyped billings for payment.  Again, read The Law by
> Frederic Bastiat available free for download at fee.org or mises.org
> mao
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Mountain Man]

clay wrote:
> Butt here is a panel.  We are not allowed to pull aside the curtain and see 
> them at work.
>
> They are the insurance miscreants
>
> The medical staff who slacks off on providing decent care
>
> The boys from Big Pharma, who price the medication out of reach, so as to 
> make obscene profit
>
> The welfare and medicare schlubs who suck the economy dry and give nothing in 
> return
>
> The hospital corporations who see no profit in filling a bed over paying 
> executives like kings
>

All of whom see the large cache of $$ ready to be absorbed, so... they
submit their hyped billings for payment.  Again, read The Law by
Frederic Bastiat available free for download at fee.org or mises.org
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[G Mann]

Clay,

I'm sorry for the passing of your Father. I salute his life and memory with
the greatest respect.

Grant.

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:44 PM, clay  wrote:

> Grant,
>
> you do not want the death the health system allows.  Watching through the
> night as my father met his maker was really wrenching.  The quality of his
> last month was really bad, but not horrid.  He was a proud man who kept
> himself ship shape looking.  Would be properly attired to leave the house,
> no matter where he was headed.  Even when he felt like crap, he tried, and
> mostly succeeded in pulling off being dignified.  He took three days after
> the oncologist told him he had congestive heart failure (which he knew he
> had and was being treated for over the past 15 years) instead of accepting
> her failure to treat adequately, for him to give up on living.  The last 36
> hours he was in no way dignified, as his mind shut down, and the rest of
> his body followed.
>
> Had he chosen to live his last months without chemo, he would have lived
> much longer.  Medical malpractice and the poisoning of chemo not only
> reduced his time left on earth, but robbed him of his dignity.  Had he been
> put on a cross, his end would have been a bit more dignified.  Friendly
> fire in Korea would have been more dignified.  Loosing his election to
> state legislature  (libertarian) to a quadriplegic, lesbian of color
> receiving welfare and being a crack 'Ho would have been more dignified.
>
> clay
>
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2013, at 7:45 PM, G Mann wrote:
>
> > And the alternate is what? Quality of Death?
> >
> > My apologies to the politically correct, but I'm not a fan of "quality
> > death"... it's not in my programming..
> >
> > Besides, I'm sure to die in a hail of hollowpoint DHS bullets in the
> coming
> > revolution, being a veteran, a conservative, and a Christian, I'm already
> > of the short list to be hunted down, just for existing. Let me know how
> > that works out... OK?
> >
> > Grant... Off to the Snowden retirement center for a round of
> > shuffleboard;)))
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Curt Raymond 
> wrote:
> >
> >> In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
> >> triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling
> to
> >> whatever is next.
> >>
> >> Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs
> >> to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
> >> extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
> >>
> >> -Curt
> >>
> >>
> >> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
> >> From: Mountain Man 
> >> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> >> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
> >> Message-ID:
> >>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> >> Mitch wrote:
> >>> Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they
> >> can do
> >>> that to you?
> >>
> >> It is called Death Panel.
> >> Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
> >> recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
> >> survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
> >> when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
> >> mao
> >> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Curt Raymond]

I agree with you entirely except:

1. Most people are idiots or rather they're completely uneducated about 
anything having to do with their health.

2. Good information is hard to find even if you are somewhat savvy.

3. Almost nobody has these discussions in advance.

For example I've got a pretty good handle on how my folks feel, my mom is a 
death and dying nurse in a veterans nursing home so we've had some pretty 
candid conversations. My wife's folks though have provided us pretty much zero 
idea and while they don't refuse to talk about it they slide around like 
they're greased. My wife is working on a plan to pin them down but its taken a 
ton of effort on her part.

Even if the guidelines I mentioned before weren't for doctors to stop providing 
care it would be helpful for families when accessing how far they should go.

Ahh, another for instance, my grandmother had her hip replaced 10 years ago 
when she was 83, came through with flying colors. Last year she was complaining 
about her knees, wanted them replaced too. The doctor told her no, that at 92 
it didn't make any sense and she's going to have to get used to some knee pain. 
We like that Doc...


-Curt


Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 21:06:16 -0400
From: "Scott Ritchey" 
To: "'Mercedes Discussion List'" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
Message-ID: <8E278DAFC4684E3681AA0A642B87F0B2@ScottPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"


Clearly, there is a point where the quality of life (or absence thereof) is
such that death is preferable to being a specimen for the medical
establishment to practice on.  I've been down that road with pets and family
members (both parents, for example). But who gets to decide when your life
isn't worth living?  Family doctor?  A committee in DC?  Next of Kin?
Arbitrary age limits?  The patient?  Frankly, I believe most patients and
families would make the best decision provided they had good information and
had considered such issues seriously long before any decision is needed.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt
Raymond
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 5:04 PM
To: Diesel List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm saying we
shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope you to the point
where you don't hurt and we let nature take its course. Theres no point in
treating the cancer or heart disease or whatever if your life sucks.

-Curt
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Curt Raymond]

Because you can never cut costs if 80% of your spending goes to support 40% of 
your population who are elderly and half a step away from death's door anyway.
What we really need is a clear set of guidelines that tell us things like, "if 
you haven't been out of bed in the last 6 months we won't pursue cancer 
treatment" because thats pointless.

I think most of the time its not the person deciding its their kids...

-Curt


Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 19:52:47 -0400
From: Allan Streib 
To: Diesel List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain

Curt Raymond  writes:

> If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm
> saying we shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope
> you to the point where you don't hurt and we let nature take its
> course. Theres no point in treating the cancer or heart disease or
> whatever if your life sucks.

Why not leave that decision up to the individual?  If someone else is
deciding, that is a "death panel."  That all that phrase means.

Allan
-- 
Allan Streib
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[clay]

The goobermunt should have nothing to do or say as relates to our demise.  If 
you are able to assert your wishes for continued existence and can foot the 
bill, then you should be allowed to.  If you think it better to skip out a 
little early, then go ahead.   If your loved one desires to pursue medical 
attention, you should support them in that choice and advocate for them against 
the vultures of the medical establishment, goobermunt and insurance.

clay



On Aug 2, 2013, at 8:25 PM, G Mann wrote:

> Doesn't this all come down to both our individual moral conscience and our
> public moral conscience?
> 
> If I make the personal decision not to have medical treatment and to die,
> or to take treatment and try to extend life, it is according to my own
> desire to control my own life.
> 
> If someone else makes the decision how I will die, or whether or not my
> life will be preserved, extended, or extinguished, there is another name
> for that. The reward for making the decision whether another person lives
> or dies has usually  been execution, or lately, incarceration for long
> period. As a moral society, we have long held that standard.
> 
> Now comes the "moral dilemma" imposed by government, which removes the
> ability for personal decision and imposes upon some un-named persons with
> no personal interest in your individual well being, the ability to decide
> "perhaps" when and how you will die.. all for the "betterment of the
> state"...
> 
> Question: As a society, have we become so intensely lacking in Moral
> Compass that we must now debate how this government imposed ability to
> grant someone or something [agency] other than the individual citizen total
> control over their own life, can somehow be accepted?
> 
> I object your Honor.. Foundation
> 
> Grant...
> 
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Mountain Man  wrote:
> 
>> Allan wrote:
>>> Why not leave that decision up to the individual?  If someone else is
>>> deciding, that is a "death panel."  That all that phrase means.
>> 
>> Totally.
>> That decision must take in to account actual cost, not cost to the
>> aggregate, i.e. some make claims, others do not.  Part of the system
>> probably should have limits, not unlike a health savings program.  No
>> $$ in the savings account? - no treatment, and the individual made
>> that choice.  Now, if the system deems it better to keep the person
>> alive, and is willing to food the cost, fine.  The unrealistic costs
>> we know today for "health care" are directly related to insco and
>> banking - read The Law by Frederic Bastiat downloadable from fee.org
>> mao
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[clay]

Butt here is a panel.  We are not allowed to pull aside the curtain and see 
them at work.

They are the insurance miscreants

The medical staff who slacks off on providing decent care

The boys from Big Pharma, who price the medication out of reach, so as to make 
obscene profit

The welfare and medicare schlubs who suck the economy dry and give nothing in 
return

The hospital corporations who see no profit in filling a bed over paying 
executives like kings

clay

On Aug 2, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Allan Streib wrote:

> Curt Raymond  writes:
> 
>> If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm
>> saying we shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope
>> you to the point where you don't hurt and we let nature take its
>> course. Theres no point in treating the cancer or heart disease or
>> whatever if your life sucks.
> 
> Why not leave that decision up to the individual?  If someone else is
> deciding, that is a "death panel."  That all that phrase means.
> 
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Streib
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[clay]

Grant,

you do not want the death the health system allows.  Watching through the night 
as my father met his maker was really wrenching.  The quality of his last month 
was really bad, but not horrid.  He was a proud man who kept himself ship shape 
looking.  Would be properly attired to leave the house, no matter where he was 
headed.  Even when he felt like crap, he tried, and mostly succeeded in pulling 
off being dignified.  He took three days after the oncologist told him he had 
congestive heart failure (which he knew he had and was being treated for over 
the past 15 years) instead of accepting her failure to treat adequately, for 
him to give up on living.  The last 36 hours he was in no way dignified, as his 
mind shut down, and the rest of his body followed.

Had he chosen to live his last months without chemo, he would have lived much 
longer.  Medical malpractice and the poisoning of chemo not only reduced his 
time left on earth, but robbed him of his dignity.  Had he been put on a cross, 
his end would have been a bit more dignified.  Friendly fire in Korea would 
have been more dignified.  Loosing his election to state legislature  
(libertarian) to a quadriplegic, lesbian of color receiving welfare and being a 
crack 'Ho would have been more dignified.

clay



On Aug 1, 2013, at 7:45 PM, G Mann wrote:

> And the alternate is what? Quality of Death?
> 
> My apologies to the politically correct, but I'm not a fan of "quality
> death"... it's not in my programming..
> 
> Besides, I'm sure to die in a hail of hollowpoint DHS bullets in the coming
> revolution, being a veteran, a conservative, and a Christian, I'm already
> of the short list to be hunted down, just for existing. Let me know how
> that works out... OK?
> 
> Grant... Off to the Snowden retirement center for a round of
> shuffleboard;)))
> 
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
>> In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
>> triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling to
>> whatever is next.
>> 
>> Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs
>> to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
>> extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>> 
>> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
>> From: Mountain Man 
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> Mitch wrote:
>>> Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they
>> can do
>>> that to you?
>> 
>> It is called Death Panel.
>> Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
>> recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
>> survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
>> when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
>> mao
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Craig]

On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 20:50:54 -0700 clay  wrote:

> Article in the daily rag outlined the exchange options.  The table
> showed the three levels of plan (gold, sliver, bronze) and age groups
> (20's 40's 60's).  Based on the level of coverage I suffer with now, I
> will be paying more as a single user than what I am charged monthly to
> cover the whole family.  So, Osama care in my case will cost me three
> times as much.  To make it economical, I should drop all coverage and
> pay the tax penalty.  

or, refuse2enroll.com


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[clay]

Article in the daily rag outlined the exchange options.  The table showed the 
three levels of plan (gold, sliver, bronze) and age groups (20's 40's 60's).  
Based on the level of coverage I suffer with now, I will be paying more as a 
single user than what I am charged monthly to cover the whole family.  So, 
Osama care in my case will cost me three times as much.  To make it economical, 
I should drop all coverage and pay the tax penalty.  

clay


On Aug 1, 2013, at 8:54 AM, Mitch Haley wrote:

> Alex Chamberlain wrote:
> 
>> This is certainly the line that the insurance industry has been
>> feeding us for a long time.  But I've said this before and I'll keep
>> saying it:  insurance is the one product in the marketplace that
>> everyone is required to have (i.e. car liability insurance, plus soon
>> health insurance), but that the seller is not required to provide in
>> exchange for the buyer's money.
> 
> Well, supposedly when ObamaCare kicks in they'll be required to provide us 
> with health insurance in exchange for forcing us to buy it.
> 
> I wonder how many people will resist that?
> I grew up with the idea that somebody could take out a mortgage and deduct 
> the interest, while another taxpayer could save up and pay cash for their 
> home and take the standard deduction. The guy without the mortgage pays more 
> in taxes than the guy who took out a mortgage and bought a bigger house.
> 
> Where I draw the line is when government fines me for not borrowing money to 
> buy a more expensive house by requiring me to pay a special $1000 tax for not 
> having the mortgage. That's where I must make a stand by filing a protest 
> return, the one where I leave the mortgage surtax calculations blank and 
> attach a preparer's note which states that it's none of their business how I 
> paid for my house.
> 
> Same goes for health care. I can pay as I go or I can buy insurance coverage 
> for it. The minute the feral government says I must buy insurance, not just 
> any insurance but the insurance they want me to buy, or pay a tax is the 
> moment I become a tax protester.
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[G Mann]

Doesn't this all come down to both our individual moral conscience and our
public moral conscience?

If I make the personal decision not to have medical treatment and to die,
or to take treatment and try to extend life, it is according to my own
desire to control my own life.

If someone else makes the decision how I will die, or whether or not my
life will be preserved, extended, or extinguished, there is another name
for that. The reward for making the decision whether another person lives
or dies has usually  been execution, or lately, incarceration for long
period. As a moral society, we have long held that standard.

Now comes the "moral dilemma" imposed by government, which removes the
ability for personal decision and imposes upon some un-named persons with
no personal interest in your individual well being, the ability to decide
"perhaps" when and how you will die.. all for the "betterment of the
state"...

Question: As a society, have we become so intensely lacking in Moral
Compass that we must now debate how this government imposed ability to
grant someone or something [agency] other than the individual citizen total
control over their own life, can somehow be accepted?

I object your Honor.. Foundation

Grant...

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Mountain Man  wrote:

> Allan wrote:
> > Why not leave that decision up to the individual?  If someone else is
> > deciding, that is a "death panel."  That all that phrase means.
>
> Totally.
> That decision must take in to account actual cost, not cost to the
> aggregate, i.e. some make claims, others do not.  Part of the system
> probably should have limits, not unlike a health savings program.  No
> $$ in the savings account? - no treatment, and the individual made
> that choice.  Now, if the system deems it better to keep the person
> alive, and is willing to food the cost, fine.  The unrealistic costs
> we know today for "health care" are directly related to insco and
> banking - read The Law by Frederic Bastiat downloadable from fee.org
> mao
>
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> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[clay]

Washington has legal dope and physician assisted death for terminal folks.   I 
would gladly smoke myself into a vegetative state after ingesting lethal 
amounts of morphine


On Jul 31, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Rich Thomas wrote:

> Part of the mentality is that family of cancer patients, especially older 
> ones, want everything possible done to keep granny alive for a few more weeks 
> or months.  They push the docs and they system to do more more more when it 
> really won't help, but the docs have to pretty much go with the desires of 
> the family or there will be hell to pay.  And then there is the part that if 
> medicare or whatever is paying for it, well
> 
> I have made it clear that when it is my time, everyone can take me out in the 
> woods and tie me to a tree and I will be happy.
> 
> --R
> 
> 
> On 7/31/13 7:57 PM, clay wrote:
>> I am of the opinion that the treatment is much worse than allowing the 
>> person to make their peace.  The chemicals and radiation kill the patient 
>> unless it is stage one.  All the treatment seems to do is to keep the victim 
>> on the edge of death while insurance companies payout the mightily 
>> overpriced procedures.  The drugs are pushed as generic treatment, instead 
>> of being used in a targeted fashion for specific cancers.
>> 
>> If there were to ever be a cure, that would ruin the cancer economy of 
>> drugs, nurses, treatment centers, and research programs.  Much like the snit 
>> the Kalifornia energy companies are tossing over rooftop PV ruining their 
>> profits because there is not cash flowing in for them.  Or the idiocy of the 
>> Republicans shooting down astroid capture.  Do they not have any idea the 
>> profits big mining will reap when they figure out how to do it?  Kill the 
>> golden goose, and there goes your cash for future elections.  Those astroid 
>> miners would pay handsomely to get their hands on that stuff.
>> 
>> rant over
>> 
>> clay
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 31, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Mountain Man wrote:
>> 
>>> Mike wrote:
 Many folks
 may have led a decent life if the tumor had been just left alone rather
 than being subjected to chemo and radiation.
 Cancer sucks.  Greedy @#$%&#?@ people that keep people from a potential
 cure over tax money suck worse.
>>> My wife's cousin had cancerous leg amputated.  6-months later he was
>>> dead, as the cancer spread via circulatory system, or somesuch...
>>> 30-years ago.
>>> Cure is heinous hope.  Death is the cure, and there is no hope against
>>> death, well... not unless you want to dialog banned material here at
>>> okiebenz...
>>> mao
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
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>>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Mountain Man]

Allan wrote:
> Why not leave that decision up to the individual?  If someone else is
> deciding, that is a "death panel."  That all that phrase means.

Totally.
That decision must take in to account actual cost, not cost to the
aggregate, i.e. some make claims, others do not.  Part of the system
probably should have limits, not unlike a health savings program.  No
$$ in the savings account? - no treatment, and the individual made
that choice.  Now, if the system deems it better to keep the person
alive, and is willing to food the cost, fine.  The unrealistic costs
we know today for "health care" are directly related to insco and
banking - read The Law by Frederic Bastiat downloadable from fee.org
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Scott Ritchey]

Clearly, there is a point where the quality of life (or absence thereof) is
such that death is preferable to being a specimen for the medical
establishment to practice on.  I've been down that road with pets and family
members (both parents, for example). But who gets to decide when your life
isn't worth living?  Family doctor?  A committee in DC?  Next of Kin?
Arbitrary age limits?  The patient?  Frankly, I believe most patients and
families would make the best decision provided they had good information and
had considered such issues seriously long before any decision is needed.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt
Raymond
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 5:04 PM
To: Diesel List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm saying we
shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope you to the point
where you don't hurt and we let nature take its course. Theres no point in
treating the cancer or heart disease or whatever if your life sucks.

-Curt




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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Michael Canfield]

Here is some more wonderful news:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/30/glyphosate-toxicity.aspx?

Mike
On Aug 2, 2013 7:53 PM, "Allan Streib"  wrote:

> Curt Raymond  writes:
>
> > If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm
> > saying we shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope
> > you to the point where you don't hurt and we let nature take its
> > course. Theres no point in treating the cancer or heart disease or
> > whatever if your life sucks.
>
> Why not leave that decision up to the individual?  If someone else is
> deciding, that is a "death panel."  That all that phrase means.
>
> Allan
> --
> Allan Streib
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Allan Streib]

Curt Raymond  writes:

> If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm
> saying we shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope
> you to the point where you don't hurt and we let nature take its
> course. Theres no point in treating the cancer or heart disease or
> whatever if your life sucks.

Why not leave that decision up to the individual?  If someone else is
deciding, that is a "death panel."  That all that phrase means.

Allan
-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Michael Canfield]

Exactly.  It wouldn't be a bad idea if it weren't for the exemtions they
allow themselves.  That is just wrong.

Mike
On Aug 2, 2013 5:34 PM, "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>
>> Of course the Democrats are really saying "Make everybody an even level
>> of poor" which isn't a great solution either. Still I guess its marginally
>> better than no solution at all.
>>
>> -Curt
>>
>
>
> NO, that is not correct. it is "Make everybody BUT US and OUR ELITE
> BUDDIES (who know better than you) an even level of poor. While WE get
> RICHER on your backs"
>
> You been scammed.  It sounds like you believe the propoganda.
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Dieselhead]

Of course the Democrats are really saying "Make everybody an even 
level of poor" which isn't a great solution either. Still I guess 
its marginally better than no solution at all.


-Curt



NO, that is not correct. it is "Make everybody BUT US and OUR ELITE 
BUDDIES (who know better than you) an even level of poor. While WE 
get RICHER on your backs"


You been scammed.  It sounds like you believe the propoganda.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Curt Raymond]

Again you've given no kind of alternative, just bashed the idea.

What they're saying is if everybody buys in the money from the people who won't 
get sick will pay for those who do. It'll also benefit those who get sick or 
hurt when they're young who wouldn't otherwise have gotten insurance. This 
*could* be a win. I recognize that it won't be and again the thing that really 
irritates me is that the Republican "answer" seems to be "let the poor fend for 
themselves while the rich profit".

Of course the Democrats are really saying "Make everybody an even level of 
poor" which isn't a great solution either. Still I guess its marginally better 
than no solution at all.


-Curt


Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 00:14:05 -0400
From: Mitch Haley 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
Message-ID: <51fb320d.6070...@voyager.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Curt Raymond wrote:
>
 I'm not a big fan of the ACA but what did the Republicrats put forth? 
Nothing. A "the market will work it out" ploy clearly hasn't been 
working. The market works to enrich itself.

In an open market with perfect information, most of the willing buyers of 
health 
insurance will be the ones whose statistically expected healthcare expenses 
exceed their ability to pay. And the insurance companies, knowing how much it 
will cost to insure those people, will price their insurance beyond their 
ability to pay.
So Pelosi and Obama's non-market solution is to remove the buyer's health from 
the pricing decision. Then the price of insurance for everybody will rise 
beyond 
the working peoples' ability to pay, unless you require everybody in the whole 
country to prop the system up by buying coverage.

Mitch.
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Curt Raymond]

Death panel is a dumb name Republicans use to scare baby boomers.

We need some reasonable guidelines by which we can measure quality of life. At 
some point when quality of life declines and age is high (say older than 80) we 
start to forgo care. We have to start asking questions like "does it make sense 
to put this 85 year old guy through another round of chemo?" Then explain to 
said 85 year old guy that he probably isn't going to get any better and the 
chemo will make him feel worse.

We also need to admit we're all going to die and get used to that fact. 
Actually I think for most of us our own mortality isn't as scary as that of our 
loved ones.


-Curt


Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 23:22:13 -0400
From: Gary Hurst 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

well, yeah, we desperately need death panels.  the reality is that spending
millions to keep a 90 year old person alive for a few months more is a
disgrace and a pure scam masquerading behind some sort of humanitarian
idea.  why not use that money to provide some healthcare for all of those
who are in need of healthcare but can't afford it instead of waiting for
them to be so far gone we spend millions on them to keep them alive with
zero hope and quality of life when spending thousands or even hundreds on
them when it mattered would have saved the whole ordeal.

no?


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
> triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling to
> whatever is next.
>
> Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs
> to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
> extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
>
> -Curt
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Curt Raymond]

If you're 90 years old and confined to your bed barely awake I'm saying we 
shouldn't treat you for anything other than pain. We dope you to the point 
where you don't hurt and we let nature take its course. Theres no point in 
treating the cancer or heart disease or whatever if your life sucks.

-Curt


Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 19:45:02 -0700
From: G Mann 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

And the alternate is what? Quality of Death?

My apologies to the politically correct, but I'm not a fan of "quality
death"... it's not in my programming..

Besides, I'm sure to die in a hail of hollowpoint DHS bullets in the coming
revolution, being a veteran, a conservative, and a Christian, I'm already
of the short list to be hunted down, just for existing. Let me know how
that works out... OK?

Grant... Off to the Snowden retirement center for a round of
shuffleboard;)))

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
> triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling to
> whatever is next.
>
> Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs
> to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
> extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
>
> -Curt
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Richard Hattaway]

I heard you make generals incensed.. now which is it???





 From: Gary Hurst 
To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer
 

i tend to make a lot of sense in general.  many stories of my madness are
greatly exaggerated.  for the most part, i'm just a fantastically boring
introvert who spends too much time trying to make sense out of stuff  :(

my alter ego, hattaway, makes up for it though!


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Michael Canfield wrote:

> Damn Gary, It disturbs me a little that I tend to agree with most of what
> you say lately..hahha.  Just ribbin..
>
> Mike
> On Aug 1, 2013 11:22 PM, "Gary Hurst"  wrote:
>
> > well, yeah, we desperately need death panels.  the reality is that
> spending
> > millions to keep a 90 year old person alive for a few months more is a
> > disgrace and a pure scam masquerading behind some sort of humanitarian
> > idea.  why not use that money to provide some healthcare for all of those
> > who are in need of healthcare but can't afford it instead of waiting for
> > them to be so far gone we spend millions on them to keep them alive with
> > zero hope and quality of life when spending thousands or even hundreds on
> > them when it mattered would have saved the whole ordeal.
> >
> > no?
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Curt Raymond 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
> > > triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling
> > to
> > > whatever is next.
> > >
> > > Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody
> needs
> > > to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
> > > extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
> > >
> > > -Curt
> > >
> > >
> > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
> > > From: Mountain Man 
> > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
> > > Message-ID:
> > >     <
> calk3cy53auwrtrcvdoo9whqcknv-8ayzsoi-stnagyi4ttw...@mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >
> > > Mitch wrote:
> > > > Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they
> > > can do
> > > > that to you?
> > >
> > > It is called Death Panel.
> > > Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
> > > recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
> > > survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
> > > when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
> > > mao
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other european cars
> >
> > *
> > *www.BuyEUROparts.com*
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>



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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Dieselhead]

 I think enough of them can finally be convinced that the Rs aren't 
really any different from the Ds.


Mitch.


Ja, der's a difference.  One set is marxist, leninist mao lovin 
facists.  The other set is insecure socialist  facist pigs.


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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Mitch Haley]

Curt Raymond wrote:

Gosh yes. When I was in high school I dated a girl who's parents were bigtime 
RVers. They had like a 20 or 24 foot. The kind built on a van but with a big 
body and sleeping over the cab. I remember them saying they had to get their 
parents to co-sign for the RV but didn't when they bought their house. I forget 
exactly but it was something like $90,000 20 years ago.

A couple months ago I saw a HUGE diesel pusher (bus size) RV at a Ford dealer 
for $25k...


Class B = a van with the original steel body, usually with a raised or raiseable 
 roof.
Class C = van cab chassis like a u-haul truck with a camper body behind/over the 
cab.

Class A = purpose built camper body or a bus chassis.

I wouldn't pay more than $10k for a rig that costs $100k new, and from what Curt 
said you can find a $200k rig for $25k.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Mitch Haley]

Curt Raymond wrote:

I'm not a big fan of the ACA but what did the Republicrats put forth? Nothing. A 
"the market will work it out" ploy clearly hasn't been working. The market 
works to enrich itself.


In an open market with perfect information, most of the willing buyers of health 
insurance will be the ones whose statistically expected healthcare expenses 
exceed their ability to pay. And the insurance companies, knowing how much it 
will cost to insure those people, will price their insurance beyond their 
ability to pay.
So Pelosi and Obama's non-market solution is to remove the buyer's health from 
the pricing decision. Then the price of insurance for everybody will rise beyond 
the working peoples' ability to pay, unless you require everybody in the whole 
country to prop the system up by buying coverage.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Mountain Man wrote:

Roger wrote:

Each of you needs to bring pressure on your representatives.


This assumes a functional system.
No $$, no voice - see SCOTUS decision about $$/persons.
I agree with one guy I read - look for a military coup.


I emailed both of my communist Senators and my socialist ex-representative well 
in advance of the passage of ACA, but they did the expected thing anyway.


Thanks to Roger for reminding me that my current neoconservative representative 
needs to be informed that House passage of any retroactive reward system for 
criminal invasion of this country will result in the long overdue death of the 
Repugnant Party. I've wanted to get rid of the RINOs since before the TEA Party, 
and if Boner and friends screw the conservative voters over illegal aliens I 
think enough of them can finally be convinced that the Rs aren't really any 
different from the Ds.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Gary Hurst]

i tend to make a lot of sense in general.  many stories of my madness are
greatly exaggerated.  for the most part, i'm just a fantastically boring
introvert who spends too much time trying to make sense out of stuff  :(

my alter ego, hattaway, makes up for it though!


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Michael Canfield wrote:

> Damn Gary, It disturbs me a little that I tend to agree with most of what
> you say lately..hahha.  Just ribbin..
>
> Mike
> On Aug 1, 2013 11:22 PM, "Gary Hurst"  wrote:
>
> > well, yeah, we desperately need death panels.  the reality is that
> spending
> > millions to keep a 90 year old person alive for a few months more is a
> > disgrace and a pure scam masquerading behind some sort of humanitarian
> > idea.  why not use that money to provide some healthcare for all of those
> > who are in need of healthcare but can't afford it instead of waiting for
> > them to be so far gone we spend millions on them to keep them alive with
> > zero hope and quality of life when spending thousands or even hundreds on
> > them when it mattered would have saved the whole ordeal.
> >
> > no?
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Curt Raymond 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
> > > triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling
> > to
> > > whatever is next.
> > >
> > > Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody
> needs
> > > to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
> > > extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
> > >
> > > -Curt
> > >
> > >
> > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
> > > From: Mountain Man 
> > > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <
> calk3cy53auwrtrcvdoo9whqcknv-8ayzsoi-stnagyi4ttw...@mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >
> > > Mitch wrote:
> > > > Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they
> > > can do
> > > > that to you?
> > >
> > > It is called Death Panel.
> > > Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
> > > recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
> > > survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
> > > when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
> > > mao
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other european cars
> >
> > *
> > *www.BuyEUROparts.com*
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>



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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Michael Canfield]

Damn Gary, It disturbs me a little that I tend to agree with most of what
you say lately..hahha.  Just ribbin..

Mike
On Aug 1, 2013 11:22 PM, "Gary Hurst"  wrote:

> well, yeah, we desperately need death panels.  the reality is that spending
> millions to keep a 90 year old person alive for a few months more is a
> disgrace and a pure scam masquerading behind some sort of humanitarian
> idea.  why not use that money to provide some healthcare for all of those
> who are in need of healthcare but can't afford it instead of waiting for
> them to be so far gone we spend millions on them to keep them alive with
> zero hope and quality of life when spending thousands or even hundreds on
> them when it mattered would have saved the whole ordeal.
>
> no?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Curt Raymond 
> wrote:
>
> > In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
> > triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling
> to
> > whatever is next.
> >
> > Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs
> > to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
> > extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
> >
> > -Curt
> >
> >
> > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
> > From: Mountain Man 
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
> > Message-ID:
> > 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Mitch wrote:
> > > Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they
> > can do
> > > that to you?
> >
> > It is called Death Panel.
> > Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
> > recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
> > survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
> > when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
> > mao
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other european cars
>
> *
> *www.BuyEUROparts.com*
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Gary Hurst]

well, yeah, we desperately need death panels.  the reality is that spending
millions to keep a 90 year old person alive for a few months more is a
disgrace and a pure scam masquerading behind some sort of humanitarian
idea.  why not use that money to provide some healthcare for all of those
who are in need of healthcare but can't afford it instead of waiting for
them to be so far gone we spend millions on them to keep them alive with
zero hope and quality of life when spending thousands or even hundreds on
them when it mattered would have saved the whole ordeal.

no?


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
> triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling to
> whatever is next.
>
> Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs
> to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
> extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
>
> -Curt
>
>
> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
> From: Mountain Man 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Mitch wrote:
> > Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they
> can do
> > that to you?
>
> It is called Death Panel.
> Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
> recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
> survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
> when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
> mao
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>



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*
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Scott Ritchey]

Back in the day when the USAF has their own veterinarians, the vets could be
drafted to run triage.  The vets had a "herd medicine" culture so they had
less problem deciding who could wait, who would die anyway, and who needed
immediate attention.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt
Raymond
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 10:05 PM
To: Diesel List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling to
whatever is next.

Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs to
live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...

-Curt


Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
From: Mountain Man 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Mitch wrote:
> Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they can
do
> that to you?

It is called Death Panel.
Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
mao
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[G Mann]

And the alternate is what? Quality of Death?

My apologies to the politically correct, but I'm not a fan of "quality
death"... it's not in my programming..

Besides, I'm sure to die in a hail of hollowpoint DHS bullets in the coming
revolution, being a veteran, a conservative, and a Christian, I'm already
of the short list to be hunted down, just for existing. Let me know how
that works out... OK?

Grant... Off to the Snowden retirement center for a round of
shuffleboard;)))

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called
> triage, you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling to
> whatever is next.
>
> Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs
> to live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through
> extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...
>
> -Curt
>
>
> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
> From: Mountain Man 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Mitch wrote:
> > Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they
> can do
> > that to you?
>
> It is called Death Panel.
> Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
> recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
> survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
> when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
> mao
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Curt Raymond]

Gosh yes. When I was in high school I dated a girl who's parents were bigtime 
RVers. They had like a 20 or 24 foot. The kind built on a van but with a big 
body and sleeping over the cab. I remember them saying they had to get their 
parents to co-sign for the RV but didn't when they bought their house. I forget 
exactly but it was something like $90,000 20 years ago.

A couple months ago I saw a HUGE diesel pusher (bus size) RV at a Ford dealer 
for $25k...

-Curt


Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 17:21:38 -0500
From: Randy Bennell 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
Message-ID: <51fadf72.2040...@bennell.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I would guess there is a "toy" bubble.
Boats, motor homes etc appear to be cheap in the USA these days.

A lot of the boats advertised here in the GWN have US ID #'s on the bow.
I assume some of my countrymen go south and buy them cheap and haul them 
home to resell.

Randy
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Rich Thomas]

IOW he's a pirate.  Aagh!

--R (sent from my miniPad)

On Aug 1, 2013, at 6:40 PM, Craig  wrote:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:14:37 -0400 "Scott Ritchey" 
wrote:

> Actually, yes or at least we did.  I have a cousin who is a successful
> builder (mostly residential).  He also owns a couple large marinas and a
> yacht or two.  For his vacation he "works" as a yacht repo guy.
> Typically he and some buds fly to Florida, the Bahamas, or some such,
> seize a yacht, ensure it is seaworthy, and return it to the lender.
> Apparently it's pretty good money for a cruising experience he would
> otherwise pay for.

That sounds like a lot of fun. Wish I could take part


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Curt Raymond]

I'm not a big fan of the ACA but what did the Republicrats put forth? Nothing. 
A "the market will work it out" ploy clearly hasn't been working. The market 
works to enrich itself.

I'm pissed that our elected officials can't compromise on anything anymore and 
the Republicans seem to think the best course of action is to just stonewall. 
The other day Obama proposes a basically Republican plan to clean up business 
taxes and the grand old windbags turn up their noses and take another pointless 
crack and repealing the ACA... 40 odd votes and they haven't repealed it, why 
don't we start repealing them?

-Curt


Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:19:21 -0500
From: Mountain Man 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Mike wrote:
> I will not pay, nor will I seek the care of a doctor that I cannot afford
> to pay cash.  Either that or they will arrest me, seize my property and pay
> for my care while incarcerated.

You along with most of okiebenz, it appears.  And probably a good
portion of the target insurable audience - my kids.
No token progressives here lauding the ACA? - Interesting!
mao
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer

[Curt Raymond]

In an emergency situation where you have limited resources its called triage, 
you save the people you can and comfort those who are traveling to whatever is 
next.

Strangely in general medicine we've somehow decided that everybody needs to 
live forever and 90 year old patients should be kept alive through 
extraordinary measures but with zero quality of life...

-Curt


Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 15:08:22 -0500
From: Mountain Man 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Mitch wrote:
> Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they can do
> that to you?

It is called Death Panel.
Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
mao
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

Roger wrote:
> Each of you needs to bring pressure on your representatives.

This assumes a functional system.
No $$, no voice - see SCOTUS decision about $$/persons.
I agree with one guy I read - look for a military coup.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[rogerhga]

To all who have given great comments on this topic (not Roger, but the ACA)... 
I think you'll find that the bill did originate in the House, but the Senate 
(Reid with Pelosi's help) gutted the House bill and dropped in ACA. Once 
mistakenly passed by the Senate, it goes to House conference or some such. The 
big problem today is that Speaker Boehner needs to "grow a set". He let the ACA 
mess get by and now he's trying to slip in amnesty under the guise of the 
"dream act". Check the details and try not to "throw up" too much. No, there is 
no law enforcement today. That's why our incompetent leader put Holder in as 
AG, to cover his back with all the law breaking/bending that he's doing. The 
House needs to start multiple impeachment hearings. Harry Reid has stopped all 
House bills he doesn't like, but yet the Republicans are being 
"obstructionists". Let's get real for a moment. The USA is rapidly becoming a 
third world country. I spend a good amount of time calling and emailing both my 
representatives and others about the mess and destruction they are allowing. I 
en
 courage all of you to do the same. This forum is a good place to vent, but it 
accomplishes little outside this forum. Each of you needs to bring pressure on 
your representatives. If they think they'll lose power, they'll act, otherwise, 
they'll take the easy route and keep their salary and excellent benefits which 
all of us as taxpayers are footing the bill for, while excluding themselves 
from the messes they impose on us. 
I'll get down off my soap box now. But each of you needs to mount your horse 
and ride out to tell everyone that "the idiots are coming" (pardon the 
reference to the British). And please do so before we are all destitute. 
Best Wishes, 

Roger Hale 
Monroe, Ga. 

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

Mitch wrote:
> Did I guess wrong, or were you planning on buying gov't subsidized health
> insurance, or paying extra taxes for not buying it?
> From the sounds of it, it might come out pretty much free if you buy it.
>

You said things correctly, which is fine.
And, nope, I don't plan on spending $$ on ACA.
I don't file taxes either, so no fines.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Mountain Man wrote:

Mitch wrote:

That's what they say.
Doesn't mean I (or apparently Canfield or Gordon) have much intention of
allowing it.


Oh, WOW!!  My intentions preceed me!!  It is amazing sometimes how
much is said and then I forget I said it, so you already know.
mao


Did I guess wrong, or were you planning on buying gov't subsidized health 
insurance, or paying extra taxes for not buying it?

From the sounds of it, it might come out pretty much free if you buy it.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

Nobody cares what is legal and what is not anymore.  I guess they 
can just do whatever they want.  So if it is the law, the 
president does not have the authority to delay the implementation 
of  his law, or cherry pick what to enforce and what to not.  Its 
supposedly the law so he has no right to delay it until after the 
elections.



On 8/1/2013 5:38 PM, Craig wrote:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:24:51 -0400 "Scott Ritchey" 
wrote:


On Aug 1 Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

Oh, but they do!  The Republican majority Supreme Court upheld
Obamacare so it's "the law of the land".

Yes.  And that was a great disappointment, like Dread Scott.

And it is another way the ACA is illegal. Spending/taxing bills must
originate in the House. The ACA originated in the Senate.


Craig

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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3209/6544 - Release Date: 08/01/13





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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

Craig wrote:
> And it is another way the ACA is illegal. Spending/taxing bills must
> originate in the House. The ACA originated in the Senate.

Thanks.
Nice.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

Mike wrote:
> I am not going to pay, period.  They will probably try to sieze my personal
> property, I sold it all already, on paper.

The personal property at this residence is all old useless being used
property of no use to anyone but the dump.  Nice old stuff, none of it
of any value, I'm sure - Dieselhead has visited here.  Yeah, they'd
make a bundle selling this junque at auction.  And then spend 10x
trying to house me as vagrant.  Or is this when the Death Panel steps
in and drives up with the black suburban and opens fire.  Armageddon.
The greatest fascist state on the planet.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

Mitch wrote:
> That's what they say.
> Doesn't mean I (or apparently Canfield or Gordon) have much intention of
> allowing it.

Oh, WOW!!  My intentions preceed me!!  It is amazing sometimes how
much is said and then I forget I said it, so you already know.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Scott Ritchey]

It's pretty plain that legality and constitutionality were not overriding
considerations when the Supremes ruled on PPACA.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 6:38 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:24:51 -0400 "Scott Ritchey" 
wrote:

> > On Aug 1 Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
> > 
> > Oh, but they do!  The Republican majority Supreme Court upheld
> > Obamacare so it's "the law of the land".
>
> Yes.  And that was a great disappointment, like Dread Scott.

And it is another way the ACA is illegal. Spending/taxing bills must
originate in the House. The ACA originated in the Senate.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Craig]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:14:37 -0400 "Scott Ritchey" 
wrote:

> Actually, yes or at least we did.  I have a cousin who is a successful
> builder (mostly residential).  He also owns a couple large marinas and a
> yacht or two.  For his vacation he "works" as a yacht repo guy.
> Typically he and some buds fly to Florida, the Bahamas, or some such,
> seize a yacht, ensure it is seaworthy, and return it to the lender.
> Apparently it's pretty good money for a cruising experience he would
> otherwise pay for.

That sounds like a lot of fun. Wish I could take part


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Craig]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:24:51 -0400 "Scott Ritchey" 
wrote:

> > On Aug 1 Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
> > 
> > Oh, but they do!  The Republican majority Supreme Court upheld
> > Obamacare so it's "the law of the land".
>
> Yes.  And that was a great disappointment, like Dread Scott.

And it is another way the ACA is illegal. Spending/taxing bills must
originate in the House. The ACA originated in the Senate.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Scott Ritchey]

Yes.  And that was a great disappointment, like Dread Scott.

-Original Message-
On Aug 1 Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

Oh, but they do!  The Republican majority Supreme Court upheld Obamacare so
it's "the law of the land".




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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Randy Bennell]

On 01/08/2013 5:14 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote:

Actually, yes or at least we did.  I have a cousin who is a successful
builder (mostly residential).  He also owns a couple large marinas and a
yacht or two.  For his vacation he "works" as a yacht repo guy.  Typically
he and some buds fly to Florida, the Bahamas, or some such, seize a yacht,
ensure it is seaworthy, and return it to the lender.  Apparently it's pretty
good money for a cruising experience he would otherwise pay for.   Knowing
several incidents where auto or home repo led to violence, I asked about
that.  He told me that violence by the "owners"is not a problem.  The
owners, who are all in default, are generally so overextended that they are
glad to be rid of the boat.  Often these owners lack the ability to return
the vessel and the boat doesn't generate additional debts after it's been
repossessed.

-Original Message-
On 1 Aug Craig sent:

Do we have a yacht bubble?





___


I would guess there is a "toy" bubble.
Boats, motor homes etc appear to be cheap in the USA these days.

A lot of the boats advertised here in the GWN have US ID #'s on the bow.
I assume some of my countrymen go south and buy them cheap and haul them 
home to resell.


Randy

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Scott Ritchey]

Actually, yes or at least we did.  I have a cousin who is a successful
builder (mostly residential).  He also owns a couple large marinas and a
yacht or two.  For his vacation he "works" as a yacht repo guy.  Typically
he and some buds fly to Florida, the Bahamas, or some such, seize a yacht,
ensure it is seaworthy, and return it to the lender.  Apparently it's pretty
good money for a cruising experience he would otherwise pay for.   Knowing
several incidents where auto or home repo led to violence, I asked about
that.  He told me that violence by the "owners"is not a problem.  The
owners, who are all in default, are generally so overextended that they are
glad to be rid of the boat.  Often these owners lack the ability to return
the vessel and the boat doesn't generate additional debts after it's been
repossessed.

-Original Message-
On 1 Aug Craig sent:

Do we have a yacht bubble?





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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Michael Canfield]

I am not going to pay, period.  They will probably try to sieze my personal
property, I sold it all already, on paper.

Mike
On Aug 1, 2013 5:03 PM, "Mitch Haley"  wrote:

> Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
>
>> Oh, but they do!  The Republican majority Supreme Court upheld Obamacare
>> so
>> it's "the law of the land".
>>
>
> That's what they say.
> Doesn't mean I (or apparently Canfield or Gordon) have much intention of
> allowing it.
>
> Obama, Pelosi, et al said it's not a tax.
> Department of Justice argued that it was valid under Congressional
> authority to lay and collect taxes. SCOTUS agreed with the 'it's a tax,
> therefore it's OK' theory.
>
> I already said what I was going to do, file a tax return that explicitly
> states my spending habits are none of their business. Probably add a
> comment about my Fourth Amendment privacy rights in accordance with Roe V.
> Wade.
>
> I just wondered if Mike had any plans on what he was going to do.
>
> Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Dieselhead]

That's a no brainer: obey the law and pay the penalty.


You are assuming that obummercare is a law.  It is NOT.

(this is where Mao chimes in to tell you the paper that makes the 
case that it is not a law.)


Even though it is not a law, the gummit will attempt to enforce it as 
if it were a law.


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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

Oh, but they do!  The Republican majority Supreme Court upheld Obamacare so
it's "the law of the land".


That's what they say.
Doesn't mean I (or apparently Canfield or Gordon) have much intention of 
allowing it.


Obama, Pelosi, et al said it's not a tax.
Department of Justice argued that it was valid under Congressional authority to 
lay and collect taxes. SCOTUS agreed with the 'it's a tax, therefore it's OK' 
theory.


I already said what I was going to do, file a tax return that explicitly states 
my spending habits are none of their business. Probably add a comment about my 
Fourth Amendment privacy rights in accordance with Roe V. Wade.


I just wondered if Mike had any plans on what he was going to do.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Andrew Strasfogel]

Oh, but they do!  The Republican majority Supreme Court upheld Obamacare so
it's "the law of the land".

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
>
>> That's a no brainer: obey the law and pay the penalty.
>>
>
> No effing way.
> That would give them the idea that they have the power to us to
> participate in commerce.
>
> Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Mitch Haley wrote:

That would give them the idea that they have the power to us to 
participate in commerce.


Crap. Accidentally deleted half of that and missed a word when retyping.

That would give them the idea that they have the power to ORDER us to 
participate in commerce.


(commerce that isn't even interstate, by the way)

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

That's a no brainer: obey the law and pay the penalty.


No effing way.
That would give them the idea that they have the power to us to participate in 
commerce.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Andrew Strasfogel]

That's a no brainer: obey the law and pay the penalty.

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:15 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Michael Canfield wrote:
>
>> I will not pay, nor will I seek the care of a doctor that I cannot afford
>> to pay cash.  Either that or they will arrest me, seize my property and
>> pay
>> for my care while incarcerated.
>>
>
> So, what are you going to do if the individual mandate isn't postponed or
> repealed and you're instructed to self-impose a penalty tax on your 1040?
>
> Mitch.
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Michael Canfield wrote:

I will not pay, nor will I seek the care of a doctor that I cannot afford
to pay cash.  Either that or they will arrest me, seize my property and pay
for my care while incarcerated.


So, what are you going to do if the individual mandate isn't postponed or 
repealed and you're instructed to self-impose a penalty tax on your 1040?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

Mike wrote:
> I will not pay, nor will I seek the care of a doctor that I cannot afford
> to pay cash.  Either that or they will arrest me, seize my property and pay
> for my care while incarcerated.

You along with most of okiebenz, it appears.  And probably a good
portion of the target insurable audience - my kids.
No token progressives here lauding the ACA? - Interesting!
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

Mitch wrote:
> Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they can do
> that to you?

It is called Death Panel.
Doctors do this all the time when they participate in emergency
recovery drill such as airplane crash.  Individuals are graded as to
survivor or not and that is the practice.  Death Panel is not new, but
when family comes to forefront, cost be damned.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Michael Canfield]

I will not pay, nor will I seek the care of a doctor that I cannot afford
to pay cash.  Either that or they will arrest me, seize my property and pay
for my care while incarcerated.

Mike
On Aug 1, 2013 3:23 PM, "G Mann"  wrote:

>  willingly sell it in Canada for that price, why do they have to get $230
> each when they sell it in USA?>
>
> Because they can.
>
> If you read all 2,000+ pages of the "affordable healthcare act" [surely
> must be a joke name] and the additional 70,000+ pages of "affordable
> healthcare act regulations] written after the act, but under the color of
> authority,  you find that you are forced to purchase it,
>
> If you don't IRS will force you to pay "taxes" extra to cover your
> non-compliance, that it hires initially some 16,000 new IRS agents and
> excludes congress, and muslims, as well as some other "special groups", but
> NOWHERE does it say.. "Big Pharma will have limits set on how much they can
> charge for drugs in USA" .. amazing.. just amazing.. who woulda
> thought... Well.. also.. there is the little issue that it does not provide
> for any new Doctors to handle the "estimated" 20,000,000 new patients..
> [wonder if doctors can handle the overtime?]...
>
> Guess, next time congress passes a law, it should read it first?
> Wait !!! ... Congress is excluded... they have no skin in this game.. free
> pass...
>
> Grant...
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:
>
> > Gary Hurst wrote:
> >
> >  for the first time i can recall in my life, you can now have health
> >> insurance but still face financial ruin or inability to afford
> healthcare
> >>
> >
> >
> > A friend of mine pays 5 digits in annual medical insurance premiums for a
> > family of four (two fourtysomethigns and two teens). Last year he ran
> some
> > fingers through a table saw. His coinsurance/copays for the surgeries etc
> > was over $20k. He could pay $20-30k, but it sure messes up the household
> > budget for the next few years.
> >
> > That blogger with the $7k drug that BCBS wants to split 50/50 with him?
> > A comment on his original blog post on the subject said:
> > "Canadian pharmacy. Thirty tablets, 100mg, 299.99. Do your due diligence
> > before ordering. US patent expires in 2014 and generics should be
> available
> > here when it does."
> >
> > If the Canadian government will only let them charge $10 a dose, and they
> > willingly sell it in Canada for that price, why do they have to get $230
> > each when they sell it in USA?
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
> > __**_
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/<
> http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/>
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

drfatty wrote:
> it's a completely broken country.  every system is broken
> and there is no plan to fix anything

Totally.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[G Mann]

Because they can.

If you read all 2,000+ pages of the "affordable healthcare act" [surely
must be a joke name] and the additional 70,000+ pages of "affordable
healthcare act regulations] written after the act, but under the color of
authority,  you find that you are forced to purchase it,

If you don't IRS will force you to pay "taxes" extra to cover your
non-compliance, that it hires initially some 16,000 new IRS agents and
excludes congress, and muslims, as well as some other "special groups", but
NOWHERE does it say.. "Big Pharma will have limits set on how much they can
charge for drugs in USA" .. amazing.. just amazing.. who woulda
thought... Well.. also.. there is the little issue that it does not provide
for any new Doctors to handle the "estimated" 20,000,000 new patients..
[wonder if doctors can handle the overtime?]...

Guess, next time congress passes a law, it should read it first?
Wait !!! ... Congress is excluded... they have no skin in this game.. free
pass...

Grant...

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Gary Hurst wrote:
>
>  for the first time i can recall in my life, you can now have health
>> insurance but still face financial ruin or inability to afford healthcare
>>
>
>
> A friend of mine pays 5 digits in annual medical insurance premiums for a
> family of four (two fourtysomethigns and two teens). Last year he ran some
> fingers through a table saw. His coinsurance/copays for the surgeries etc
> was over $20k. He could pay $20-30k, but it sure messes up the household
> budget for the next few years.
>
> That blogger with the $7k drug that BCBS wants to split 50/50 with him?
> A comment on his original blog post on the subject said:
> "Canadian pharmacy. Thirty tablets, 100mg, 299.99. Do your due diligence
> before ordering. US patent expires in 2014 and generics should be available
> here when it does."
>
> If the Canadian government will only let them charge $10 a dose, and they
> willingly sell it in Canada for that price, why do they have to get $230
> each when they sell it in USA?
>
> Mitch.
>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[WILTON]

I missed growing my own food and exercising daily.  ;<)

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Randy Bennell" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]



On 31/07/2013 6:12 PM, Rick Knoble wrote:

On Jul 31, 2013, at 4:31 PM, "Randy Bennell"  wrote:

How about the fact that food is not quite so organic as it once was. 
Treated with all sorts of chemicals and subject to all sorts of other 
environmental issues.


Possibly a factor. Our livers process all the stuff we take into our 
bodies. It is an amazing organ that neutralizes toxins, synthesizes 
nutrients we lack... If we over exert our liver, yes, we will suffer the 
effects of mans influence on the food chain.


If a person wants to live as healthy a life as possible, the following is 
a prescription. Don't drink alcohol to excess, no illicit drug use, 
eliminate tobacco use, eat a healthy diet, grow your own food if possible 
(don't fertilize with cat crap), exercise strenuously five or six days a 
week, don't frequent high crime areas (Chicago, Detroit, etc.) and drive 
a Mercedes Benz.


Rick
Sent from my iPhone
___

I do reasonably well with your list, except for booze, failure to grow my 
own food, and failure to exercise daily. Uh Oh


Randy

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Gary Hurst]

i'm gonna guess most of this shit is bank owned.  they aren't even real sea
voyaging people, as far as i can tell.  they just go out on a weekend day
and get drunk with their friends, screaming and blaring music while
basically floating along in the intercoastal.  the also each have an amg
mercedes and some italian exotic in each driveway, but neither ever more as
they just get around in the big SUV.  i live in tourist housing, but these
people think i am one of them, just an eccentric old white guy from the
neighborhood who happens to just get around by bicycle.  they are nice
enough to me, but i am pretty horrified by their lifestyle.  it is
"unamerican" from the perspective of my working class upbringing


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Craig  wrote:

> On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 10:01:09 -0400 Gary Hurst 
> wrote:
>
> > you need to come to south florida and start running scams.  lots of
> > yachts in this neighborhood!
>
> Yes, but are the user-owned or bank-owned? Do we have a yacht bubble?
>
>
> Craig
>
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Rich Thomas <
> > richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Please explain.  I only have a kayak.  I need to get this going as a
> > > yacht would be nice.
> > >
> > > --R
> > >
> > > On 8/1/13 12:41 AM, Gary Hurst wrote:
> > >
> > >> doctors just know they want bigger yachts and the details of "how"
> > >> don't disturb them.  i
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > __**_
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
> > > 
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com<
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other european cars
> >
> > *
> > *www.BuyEUROparts.com*
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> --
> Present:'95 E320Sebastian  117 kmi
> '94 E420Oskar  127 kmi (awaiting parting out)
> '82 240D/3.0Bluebell   267 kmi (leaking diesel from somewhere
> in the engine compartment)
> Past:   '86 190E/2.3
> '72 220/8
> '64 190Dc   Emma
> '72 220D/8  Herman 186 kmi
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Gary Hurst]

that "canadian pharmacy" talk is largely fraud, btw.  it certainly is not
from a licensed pharmacy in canada but pure 3rd world black market, mostly
out of india.


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Gary Hurst wrote:
>
>  for the first time i can recall in my life, you can now have health
>> insurance but still face financial ruin or inability to afford healthcare
>>
>
>
> A friend of mine pays 5 digits in annual medical insurance premiums for a
> family of four (two fourtysomethigns and two teens). Last year he ran some
> fingers through a table saw. His coinsurance/copays for the surgeries etc
> was over $20k. He could pay $20-30k, but it sure messes up the household
> budget for the next few years.
>
> That blogger with the $7k drug that BCBS wants to split 50/50 with him?
> A comment on his original blog post on the subject said:
> "Canadian pharmacy. Thirty tablets, 100mg, 299.99. Do your due diligence
> before ordering. US patent expires in 2014 and generics should be available
> here when it does."
>
> If the Canadian government will only let them charge $10 a dose, and they
> willingly sell it in Canada for that price, why do they have to get $230
> each when they sell it in USA?
>
> Mitch.
>
>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>



-- 
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*
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Randy Bennell]

On 31/07/2013 6:12 PM, Rick Knoble wrote:

On Jul 31, 2013, at 4:31 PM, "Randy Bennell"  wrote:


How about the fact that food is not quite so organic as it once was. Treated 
with all sorts of chemicals and subject to all sorts of other environmental 
issues.


Possibly a factor. Our livers process all the stuff we take into our bodies. It 
is an amazing organ that neutralizes toxins, synthesizes nutrients we lack... 
If we over exert our liver, yes, we will suffer the effects of mans influence 
on the food chain.

If a person wants to live as healthy a life as possible, the following is a 
prescription. Don't drink alcohol to excess, no illicit drug use, eliminate 
tobacco use, eat a healthy diet, grow your own food if possible (don't 
fertilize with cat crap), exercise strenuously five or six days a week, don't 
frequent high crime areas (Chicago, Detroit, etc.) and drive a Mercedes Benz.

Rick
Sent from my iPhone
___

I do reasonably well with your list, except for booze, failure to grow 
my own food, and failure to exercise daily. Uh Oh


Randy

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Larry T]

well, competition is supposed to prevent what you described. (gary 
wrote:   avoid providing the service that they've contracted to 
provide.).  IMO when the govt gets involved and the Law of Unintended 
Consequences take over then all hell-o kicks in.   if the insureres 
could cross state lines for instance, competition would dominate the 
industry.  companies would be chasing the same # of customers and would 
have to offer superior service - which equates to better pay-outs.


i have no idea why these laws were passes (probably to protect someone 
paying the politicians off) but once a law establishes rules, the whole 
industry lines up to follow the rules...  which is why there has been no 
attempt to kill these laws.  even obamacare is a state limited plan for 
some crazy reason...


Anyway, competition, when allowed to function unfettered (except for 
anti monopoly laws, and similar) will keep the businesses in line. it 
always becomes a problem when the govt tries to turn things to a certain 
way.   they've always done it with real estate - offering tax credit for 
home buyers - why not for renters?  because the govt wants property 
owners...


have a great day..
LarryT
91 300D

On 8/1/2013 11:36 AM, Alex Chamberlain wrote:

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Gary Hurst  wrote:

this to me is really the breaking point of the healthcare system as we have
it today.  what is the point of any kind of insurance?  to protect you from
financial ruin in case something goes south on you.

This is certainly the line that the insurance industry has been
feeding us for a long time.  But I've said this before and I'll keep
saying it:  insurance is the one product in the marketplace that
everyone is required to have (i.e. car liability insurance, plus soon
health insurance), but that the seller is not required to provide in
exchange for the buyer's money.

In order to maximize shareholder profit, insurance companies must
minimize the claims they pay out while continuing to raise premiums.
A Marxist will tell you that's how all of capitalism works (take as
much money as possible, give as little in return).  I am the farthest
thing from a Marxist--still, something's wrong with a system where
people are legally mandated by the state to do business with companies
whose business model is explicitly to, as often as possible, avoid
providing the service that they've contracted to provide.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Frederick Moir]

+1
 
Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred.



>
> From: Dan Penoff 
>To: Mercedes Discussion List  
>Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2013 12:22 PM
>Subject: Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]
> 
>
>Because they can.
>
>Eli Lilly is one of the worst offenders.
>
>Dan
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Dan Penoff]

Because they can.

Eli Lilly is one of the worst offenders.

Dan

On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Gary Hurst wrote:
> 
>> for the first time i can recall in my life, you can now have health
>> insurance but still face financial ruin or inability to afford healthcare
> 
> 
> A friend of mine pays 5 digits in annual medical insurance premiums for a 
> family of four (two fourtysomethigns and two teens). Last year he ran some 
> fingers through a table saw. His coinsurance/copays for the surgeries etc was 
> over $20k. He could pay $20-30k, but it sure messes up the household budget 
> for the next few years.
> 
> That blogger with the $7k drug that BCBS wants to split 50/50 with him?
> A comment on his original blog post on the subject said:
> "Canadian pharmacy. Thirty tablets, 100mg, 299.99. Do your due diligence 
> before ordering. US patent expires in 2014 and generics should be available 
> here when it does."
> 
> If the Canadian government will only let them charge $10 a dose, and they 
> willingly sell it in Canada for that price, why do they have to get $230 each 
> when they sell it in USA?
> 
> Mitch.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Craig]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 10:01:09 -0400 Gary Hurst 
wrote:

> you need to come to south florida and start running scams.  lots of
> yachts in this neighborhood!

Yes, but are the user-owned or bank-owned? Do we have a yacht bubble?


Craig
 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Rich Thomas <
> richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:
> 
> > Please explain.  I only have a kayak.  I need to get this going as a
> > yacht would be nice.
> >
> > --R
> >
> > On 8/1/13 12:41 AM, Gary Hurst wrote:
> >
> >> doctors just know they want bigger yachts and the details of "how"
> >> don't disturb them.  i
> >>
> >
> >
> > __**_
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
> > 
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other european cars
> 
> *
> *www.BuyEUROparts.com*
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Craig

--
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'94 E420Oskar  127 kmi (awaiting parting out)
'82 240D/3.0Bluebell   267 kmi (leaking diesel from somewhere
in the engine compartment)
Past:   '86 190E/2.3
'72 220/8
'64 190Dc   Emma
'72 220D/8  Herman 186 kmi

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Alex Chamberlain wrote:


This is certainly the line that the insurance industry has been
feeding us for a long time.  But I've said this before and I'll keep
saying it:  insurance is the one product in the marketplace that
everyone is required to have (i.e. car liability insurance, plus soon
health insurance), but that the seller is not required to provide in
exchange for the buyer's money.


Well, supposedly when ObamaCare kicks in they'll be required to provide us with 
health insurance in exchange for forcing us to buy it.


I wonder how many people will resist that?
I grew up with the idea that somebody could take out a mortgage and deduct the 
interest, while another taxpayer could save up and pay cash for their home and 
take the standard deduction. The guy without the mortgage pays more in taxes 
than the guy who took out a mortgage and bought a bigger house.


Where I draw the line is when government fines me for not borrowing money to buy 
a more expensive house by requiring me to pay a special $1000 tax for not having 
the mortgage. That's where I must make a stand by filing a protest return, the 
one where I leave the mortgage surtax calculations blank and attach a preparer's 
note which states that it's none of their business how I paid for my house.


Same goes for health care. I can pay as I go or I can buy insurance coverage for 
it. The minute the feral government says I must buy insurance, not just any 
insurance but the insurance they want me to buy, or pay a tax is the moment I 
become a tax protester.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Gary Hurst  wrote:
> this to me is really the breaking point of the healthcare system as we have
> it today.  what is the point of any kind of insurance?  to protect you from
> financial ruin in case something goes south on you.

This is certainly the line that the insurance industry has been
feeding us for a long time.  But I've said this before and I'll keep
saying it:  insurance is the one product in the marketplace that
everyone is required to have (i.e. car liability insurance, plus soon
health insurance), but that the seller is not required to provide in
exchange for the buyer's money.

In order to maximize shareholder profit, insurance companies must
minimize the claims they pay out while continuing to raise premiums.
A Marxist will tell you that's how all of capitalism works (take as
much money as possible, give as little in return).  I am the farthest
thing from a Marxist--still, something's wrong with a system where
people are legally mandated by the state to do business with companies
whose business model is explicitly to, as often as possible, avoid
providing the service that they've contracted to provide.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Allan Streib wrote:



If they were mandated to sell it for $10 in the USA they probably would
not have bothered to develop the drug in the first place.



True, but how did we let ourselves get in the position of subsidizing other 
countries' government health plans, and how to we get out of that position?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Allan Streib]

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 11:06 AM, Mitch Haley wrote:



If the Canadian government will only let them charge $10 a dose, and
they

willingly sell it in Canada for that price, why do they have to get
$230

each when they sell it in USA?



If they were mandated to sell it for $10 in the USA they probably would
not have bothered to develop the drug in the first place.



Allan
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Gary Hurst wrote:


for the first time i can recall in my life, you can now have health
insurance but still face financial ruin or inability to afford healthcare



A friend of mine pays 5 digits in annual medical insurance premiums for a family 
of four (two fourtysomethigns and two teens). Last year he ran some fingers 
through a table saw. His coinsurance/copays for the surgeries etc was over $20k. 
He could pay $20-30k, but it sure messes up the household budget for the next 
few years.


That blogger with the $7k drug that BCBS wants to split 50/50 with him?
A comment on his original blog post on the subject said:
"Canadian pharmacy. Thirty tablets, 100mg, 299.99. Do your due diligence before 
ordering. US patent expires in 2014 and generics should be available here when 
it does."


If the Canadian government will only let them charge $10 a dose, and they 
willingly sell it in Canada for that price, why do they have to get $230 each 
when they sell it in USA?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Gary Hurst]

this to me is really the breaking point of the healthcare system as we have
it today.  what is the point of any kind of insurance?  to protect you from
financial ruin in case something goes south on you.  so say all your crap
is worth $50k, you you might buy some kind of fire/theft type insurance for
$500 for the year as you can pay $500 but you couldn't afford to cover
$50k.  etc

for the first time i can recall in my life, you can now have health
insurance but still face financial ruin or inability to afford healthcare


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Rich Thomas wrote:
>
>> Part of the mentality is that family of cancer patients, especially older
>> ones, want everything possible done to keep granny alive for a few more
>> weeks or months.  They push the docs and they system to do more more more
>> when it really won't help, but the docs have to pretty much go with the
>> desires of the family or there will be hell to pay.  And then there is the
>> part that if medicare or whatever is paying for it, well
>>
>
> There's a blogger who recently found out that Blue Cross was raising the
> copay on his $7k a month drug from $40 a month to $3500.
> Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they can
> do that to you?
>
> http://sipseystreetirregulars.**blogspot.com/2013/07/a-white-**
> knight-appears-blue-crossblue.**html
>
>
> __**_
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>
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>
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>



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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mitch Haley]

Rich Thomas wrote:
Part of the mentality is that family of cancer patients, especially 
older ones, want everything possible done to keep granny alive for a few 
more weeks or months.  They push the docs and they system to do more 
more more when it really won't help, but the docs have to pretty much go 
with the desires of the family or there will be hell to pay.  And then 
there is the part that if medicare or whatever is paying for it, well


There's a blogger who recently found out that Blue Cross was raising the copay 
on his $7k a month drug from $40 a month to $3500.
Yikes, what's the point of having prescription drug insurance if they can do 
that to you?


http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2013/07/a-white-knight-appears-blue-crossblue.html

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Gary Hurst]

you need to come to south florida and start running scams.  lots of yachts
in this neighborhood!


On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

> Please explain.  I only have a kayak.  I need to get this going as a yacht
> would be nice.
>
> --R
>
>
>
> On 8/1/13 12:41 AM, Gary Hurst wrote:
>
>> doctors just know they want bigger yachts and the details of "how" don't
>> disturb them.  i
>>
>
>
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>
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>



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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Rich Thomas]

Please explain.  I only have a kayak.  I need to get this going as a 
yacht would be nice.


--R


On 8/1/13 12:41 AM, Gary Hurst wrote:

doctors just know they want bigger yachts and the details of "how" don't
disturb them.  i



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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Dan Penoff]

I believe a recent study showed that the bulk of Medicare expenditures take 
place in the last two years of the patient's life.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 1, 2013, at 12:41 AM, Gary Hurst  wrote:

> the exploitation of medicare is monumental down here.  anytime an old
> person has a headache or stomach ache, $200k plus is spent on "medical
> care."  many of the elderly enjoy the attention and feel participation is
> worthwhile, but spending 7 figures a year on someone who is not even
> actually in need of medical attention is entirely unsustainable.
> 
> doctors just know they want bigger yachts and the details of "how" don't
> disturb them.  it's a completely broken country.  every system is broken
> and there is no plan to fix anything
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Rich Thomas <
> richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:
> 
>> Part of the mentality is that family of cancer patients, especially older
>> ones, want everything possible done to keep granny alive for a few more
>> weeks or months.  They push the docs and they system to do more more more
>> when it really won't help, but the docs have to pretty much go with the
>> desires of the family or there will be hell to pay.  And then there is the
>> part that if medicare or whatever is paying for it, well
>> 
>> I have made it clear that when it is my time, everyone can take me out in
>> the woods and tie me to a tree and I will be happy.
>> 
>> --R
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/31/13 7:57 PM, clay wrote:
>> 
>>> I am of the opinion that the treatment is much worse than allowing the
>>> person to make their peace.  The chemicals and radiation kill the patient
>>> unless it is stage one.  All the treatment seems to do is to keep the
>>> victim on the edge of death while insurance companies payout the mightily
>>> overpriced procedures.  The drugs are pushed as generic treatment, instead
>>> of being used in a targeted fashion for specific cancers.
>>> 
>>> If there were to ever be a cure, that would ruin the cancer economy of
>>> drugs, nurses, treatment centers, and research programs.  Much like the
>>> snit the Kalifornia energy companies are tossing over rooftop PV ruining
>>> their profits because there is not cash flowing in for them.  Or the idiocy
>>> of the Republicans shooting down astroid capture.  Do they not have any
>>> idea the profits big mining will reap when they figure out how to do it?
>>> Kill the golden goose, and there goes your cash for future elections.
>>> Those astroid miners would pay handsomely to get their hands on that stuff.
>>> 
>>> rant over
>>> 
>>> clay
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jul 31, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Mountain Man wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mike wrote:
 
> Many folks
> may have led a decent life if the tumor had been just left alone rather
> than being subjected to chemo and radiation.
> Cancer sucks.  Greedy @#$%&#?@ people that keep people from a potential
> cure over tax money suck worse.
 My wife's cousin had cancerous leg amputated.  6-months later he was
 dead, as the cancer spread via circulatory system, or somesuch...
 30-years ago.
 Cure is heinous hope.  Death is the cure, and there is no hope against
 death, well... not unless you want to dialog banned material here at
 okiebenz...
 mao
 
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>>> 
>>> __**_
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>>> 
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>>> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>> 
>> __**_
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>> 
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>> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Allan Streib]

Craig  writes:

> I read something in the last week or so about some breakthrough, but I
> don't remember exactly what it was.

I happened to see this a few weeks back

  https://asunews.asu.edu/20130712_pauldavies_cancer_research

A couple of excerpts:

  We envisage cancer as the execution of an ancient program pre-loaded
  into the genomes of all cells ... a throwback to an ancestral
  phenotype.

  The new theory predicts that as cancer progresses through more and
  more malignant stages, it will express genes that are more deeply
  conserved among multicellular organisms, and so are in some sense more
  ancient.

  This could provide clues to future treatments. For example, when life
  took the momentous step from single cells to multicellular
  assemblages, Earth had low levels of oxygen. Sure enough, cancer
  reverts to an ancient form of metabolism called fermentation, which
  can supply energy with little need for oxygen, although it requires
  lots of sugar.


That last paragraph in particular seemed interesting... most
contemporary diets are very high in sugar/carb intake, between the
addition of sugar or corn syrup to almost all processed foods and the
high amounts of carbs most people eat.  Perhaps that creates conditions
favorable to cancer, as well as tending to trigger diabetes over the
long term.

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Gary Hurst]

the exploitation of medicare is monumental down here.  anytime an old
person has a headache or stomach ache, $200k plus is spent on "medical
care."  many of the elderly enjoy the attention and feel participation is
worthwhile, but spending 7 figures a year on someone who is not even
actually in need of medical attention is entirely unsustainable.

doctors just know they want bigger yachts and the details of "how" don't
disturb them.  it's a completely broken country.  every system is broken
and there is no plan to fix anything


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

> Part of the mentality is that family of cancer patients, especially older
> ones, want everything possible done to keep granny alive for a few more
> weeks or months.  They push the docs and they system to do more more more
> when it really won't help, but the docs have to pretty much go with the
> desires of the family or there will be hell to pay.  And then there is the
> part that if medicare or whatever is paying for it, well
>
> I have made it clear that when it is my time, everyone can take me out in
> the woods and tie me to a tree and I will be happy.
>
> --R
>
>
>
> On 7/31/13 7:57 PM, clay wrote:
>
>> I am of the opinion that the treatment is much worse than allowing the
>> person to make their peace.  The chemicals and radiation kill the patient
>> unless it is stage one.  All the treatment seems to do is to keep the
>> victim on the edge of death while insurance companies payout the mightily
>> overpriced procedures.  The drugs are pushed as generic treatment, instead
>> of being used in a targeted fashion for specific cancers.
>>
>> If there were to ever be a cure, that would ruin the cancer economy of
>> drugs, nurses, treatment centers, and research programs.  Much like the
>> snit the Kalifornia energy companies are tossing over rooftop PV ruining
>> their profits because there is not cash flowing in for them.  Or the idiocy
>> of the Republicans shooting down astroid capture.  Do they not have any
>> idea the profits big mining will reap when they figure out how to do it?
>>  Kill the golden goose, and there goes your cash for future elections.
>>  Those astroid miners would pay handsomely to get their hands on that stuff.
>>
>> rant over
>>
>> clay
>>
>>
>> On Jul 31, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Mountain Man wrote:
>>
>>  Mike wrote:
>>>
 Many folks
 may have led a decent life if the tumor had been just left alone rather
 than being subjected to chemo and radiation.
 Cancer sucks.  Greedy @#$%&#?@ people that keep people from a potential
 cure over tax money suck worse.

>>> My wife's cousin had cancerous leg amputated.  6-months later he was
>>> dead, as the cancer spread via circulatory system, or somesuch...
>>> 30-years ago.
>>> Cure is heinous hope.  Death is the cure, and there is no hope against
>>> death, well... not unless you want to dialog banned material here at
>>> okiebenz...
>>> mao
>>>
>>> __**_
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>
>>> To search list archives 
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>>>
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>>>
>>
>> __**_
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>>
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>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Rich Thomas]

Part of the mentality is that family of cancer patients, especially 
older ones, want everything possible done to keep granny alive for a few 
more weeks or months.  They push the docs and they system to do more 
more more when it really won't help, but the docs have to pretty much go 
with the desires of the family or there will be hell to pay.  And then 
there is the part that if medicare or whatever is paying for it, well


I have made it clear that when it is my time, everyone can take me out 
in the woods and tie me to a tree and I will be happy.


--R


On 7/31/13 7:57 PM, clay wrote:

I am of the opinion that the treatment is much worse than allowing the person 
to make their peace.  The chemicals and radiation kill the patient unless it is 
stage one.  All the treatment seems to do is to keep the victim on the edge of 
death while insurance companies payout the mightily overpriced procedures.  The 
drugs are pushed as generic treatment, instead of being used in a targeted 
fashion for specific cancers.

If there were to ever be a cure, that would ruin the cancer economy of drugs, 
nurses, treatment centers, and research programs.  Much like the snit the 
Kalifornia energy companies are tossing over rooftop PV ruining their profits 
because there is not cash flowing in for them.  Or the idiocy of the 
Republicans shooting down astroid capture.  Do they not have any idea the 
profits big mining will reap when they figure out how to do it?  Kill the 
golden goose, and there goes your cash for future elections.  Those astroid 
miners would pay handsomely to get their hands on that stuff.

rant over

clay


On Jul 31, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Mountain Man wrote:


Mike wrote:

Many folks
may have led a decent life if the tumor had been just left alone rather
than being subjected to chemo and radiation.
Cancer sucks.  Greedy @#$%&#?@ people that keep people from a potential
cure over tax money suck worse.

My wife's cousin had cancerous leg amputated.  6-months later he was
dead, as the cancer spread via circulatory system, or somesuch...
30-years ago.
Cure is heinous hope.  Death is the cure, and there is no hope against
death, well... not unless you want to dialog banned material here at
okiebenz...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Treating cancer [was Re: Roger?]

[Mountain Man]

clay wrote:
> I am of the opinion that the treatment is much worse than allowing the person 
> to make their peace.
>

That is the route my wife has settled in her mind after watching her
mom die 20 years ago.  That stuff is waaay to unaffordable.  Eat right
and make peace.
mao

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