RE: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Bob Jonkman]

This is what Joe Andrieu  said
about "RE: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, " on 29 Jun 2007 at 0:04

> Someone somewhere is going to name this thing. It might be a journalist.
> It might be FF. It could be a blogger.

It might be Joe Andrieu...


> The idea that there is data embedded in a web page that the browser can
> consistently interact with [...]


"Embedded Data"   +1 for Bob Jonkman




-- -- -- --
Bob Jonkman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://sobac.com/sobac/
SOBAC Microcomputer Services  Voice: +1-519-669-0388   
6 James Street, Elmira ON  Canada  N3B 1L5  Cel: +1-519-635-9413
Networking   --   Office & Business Automation   --   Consulting
PGP:0xAE33E989 Fingrprnt:9FAF A6AC B567 BC10 8973 7CF0 CB27 0317



___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

"Send to"? like the windows menu that lets you send something to a 
folder, or a person, or a bluetooth device.


Could you call the functionality sendable data? Or maybe go back to my 
earlier suggestion of reusable data?



Pelle W wrote:

Alex Faaborg skrev:
couldn't it rather be a description of an action - like data 
extraction?
Yeah, maybe just name the button/menu "Send Data."  I think the 
sending is probably more important than the extraction.

-Alex

"Send data" sounds perfect to me - much simplier than extraction!
/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Pelle W]

Alex Faaborg skrev:

couldn't it rather be a description of an action - like data extraction?
Yeah, maybe just name the button/menu "Send Data."  I think the 
sending is probably more important than the extraction.

-Alex

"Send data" sounds perfect to me - much simplier than extraction!
/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

couldn't it rather be a description of an action - like data  
extraction?


Yeah, maybe just name the button/menu "Send Data."  I think the  
sending is probably more important than the extraction.

-Alex


On Jun 29, 2007, at 1:19 AM, Pelle W wrote:


Alex Faaborg skrev:

They imply opening or saving a completely separate document/file
The interface model doesn't necessarily have to actually match the  
implementation model, but yeah, I'm still not a huge fan of the  
attachments idea.


"Pointers" for: http://tinyurl.com/278y8g
"Hyperlayers" for: http://tinyurl.com/26mqf3
(or "layers" for short)
Those names sound very catchy - but in my ears perhaps a bit too  
much like something coming from a classic PR-campaign. At least  
"Hyperlayers" - image an ad with the text "Increase your  
productivity with the all new Firefox 3 now with hyperlayers". Very  
cool - but does it actually tell us something?


Can't it be kept simple? Does it have to be a new name - couldn't  
it rather be a description of an action - like data extraction?  
(Don't know if thats the right spelling though)
That would tell what it does and it would be less PR-like and more  
"honest"(?) - it's just plain simply describing what this new thing  
does and that's what I think is most important. Keep it simple.
Both of those names have previously been shot down inside Mozilla,  
ironically enough because some people felt that the interface- 
level name should emerge out of the microformats community.  In  
the past Web browsers have lagged far enough behind the evolution  
of the Web that names have already been established (like with  
Feeds).
Well - that is ironic :) Perhaps the "real" place for this would be  
among the comments on a YouTube-movie featuring this in action or  
in blogosphere? But that does however not stop us from having this  
discussion...


/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Pelle W]

Alex Faaborg skrev:

They imply opening or saving a completely separate document/file
The interface model doesn't necessarily have to actually match the 
implementation model, but yeah, I'm still not a huge fan of the 
attachments idea.


"Pointers" for: http://tinyurl.com/278y8g
"Hyperlayers" for: http://tinyurl.com/26mqf3
(or "layers" for short)
Those names sound very catchy - but in my ears perhaps a bit too much 
like something coming from a classic PR-campaign. At least "Hyperlayers" 
- image an ad with the text "Increase your productivity with the all new 
Firefox 3 now with hyperlayers". Very cool - but does it actually tell 
us something?


Can't it be kept simple? Does it have to be a new name - couldn't it 
rather be a description of an action - like data extraction? (Don't know 
if thats the right spelling though)
That would tell what it does and it would be less PR-like and more 
"honest"(?) - it's just plain simply describing what this new thing does 
and that's what I think is most important. Keep it simple.
Both of those names have previously been shot down inside Mozilla, 
ironically enough because some people felt that the interface-level 
name should emerge out of the microformats community.  In the past Web 
browsers have lagged far enough behind the evolution of the Web that 
names have already been established (like with Feeds).
Well - that is ironic :) Perhaps the "real" place for this would be 
among the comments on a YouTube-movie featuring this in action or in 
blogosphere? But that does however not stop us from having this 
discussion...


/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

They imply opening or saving a completely separate document/file


The interface model doesn't necessarily have to actually match the  
implementation model, but yeah, I'm still not a huge fan of the  
attachments idea.


Some other interface specific names I've been thinking about

"Pointers" for: http://tinyurl.com/278y8g
"Hyperlayers" for: http://tinyurl.com/26mqf3
(or "layers" for short)

Both of those names have previously been shot down inside Mozilla,  
ironically enough because some people felt that the interface-level  
name should emerge out of the microformats community.  In the past  
Web browsers have lagged far enough behind the evolution of the Web  
that names have already been established (like with Feeds).


-Alex



On Jun 29, 2007, at 12:04 AM, Joe Andrieu wrote:


Alex,

I would suggest that attachments are definitely a bad idea. They  
imply opening or saving a completely separate document/file and

are, as you state, "danger" waiting to happen.

LiveData
HyperData
SmartData
WebData
MagicData

LiveBits
HyperBits
SmartBits
WebBits
MagicBits

Bits being a combination of both bits/bytes and tidbits.

Someone somewhere is going to name this thing. It might be a  
journalist. It might be FF. It could be a blogger.



The idea that there is data embedded in a web page that the browser  
can consistently interact with beyond the hyperlink is new.
Especially when that embedding and the interactions are consistent  
across many many webpages, but not all web pages.  Users will
name it something. I think people understand "data" but rarely have  
a need to speak of data generally--we talk about contacts or

events or people or reviews.

But when "my brain is full": it's got too much stuff. Too much  
data. I think people get that. Data is generalized digital bits in
some way that's useful. hCards, hCalendars, GEO, XFN and other uF  
or POSH generalize to data. Semantic data.


Of course, "bookmarks" were a pretty innovative metaphor.  Perhaps  
there is something completely different that works. Maybe

something from tidbits. Or morsels...

Anyway, good luck. I expect you might have more luck with the FF crew.

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
SwitchBook Software
http://www.switchbook.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1 (805) 705-8651


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Alex Faaborg
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:40 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum


I've been giving some thought to framing microformatted content as
"attachments," along with a little paper clip icon.  This would
resonate with users who are familiar with email, but on the
downside,
a lot of people have been trained that attachments=danger.

-Alex

On Jun 28, 2007, at 11:29 PM, Pelle W wrote:


Paul Wilkins skrev:

From: "Alex Faaborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
|> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue
brainstorming the

best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with
the rest of the mozilla community.  I'll post updates to this
list from  time to time, and it will be interesting to see what
interfaces and  names other people come up with as well.

The RSS feeds are accessed in the browser through the feed

button. So

it makes sense that the microformat data should be accessed
through the data button.

I do like data, it's concise and is easy to explain.

Q: What kind of data can I get from the data button?
A: Contact details, calender entries, geographic locations, . . .

Q: Does the data button always get the information?
A: No, only when the page author has specially marked out those
parts of the page.

Data sounds good but since RSS also is data the RSS-feed should
perhaps be reached from below the data-button to emphasize the
similarities.

/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

RE: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Joe Andrieu]

Alex,

I would suggest that attachments are definitely a bad idea. They imply opening 
or saving a completely separate document/file and
are, as you state, "danger" waiting to happen.

LiveData
HyperData
SmartData
WebData
MagicData

LiveBits
HyperBits
SmartBits
WebBits
MagicBits

Bits being a combination of both bits/bytes and tidbits.

Someone somewhere is going to name this thing. It might be a journalist. It 
might be FF. It could be a blogger.


The idea that there is data embedded in a web page that the browser can 
consistently interact with beyond the hyperlink is new.
Especially when that embedding and the interactions are consistent across many 
many webpages, but not all web pages.  Users will
name it something. I think people understand "data" but rarely have a need to 
speak of data generally--we talk about contacts or
events or people or reviews.  

But when "my brain is full": it's got too much stuff. Too much data. I think 
people get that. Data is generalized digital bits in
some way that's useful. hCards, hCalendars, GEO, XFN and other uF or POSH 
generalize to data. Semantic data.

Of course, "bookmarks" were a pretty innovative metaphor.  Perhaps there is 
something completely different that works. Maybe
something from tidbits. Or morsels...

Anyway, good luck. I expect you might have more luck with the FF crew.

-j

--
Joe Andrieu
SwitchBook Software
http://www.switchbook.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1 (805) 705-8651 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of Alex Faaborg
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:40 PM
> To: Microformats Discuss
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
> 
> 
> I've been giving some thought to framing microformatted content as  
> "attachments," along with a little paper clip icon.  This would  
> resonate with users who are familiar with email, but on the 
> downside,  
> a lot of people have been trained that attachments=danger.
> 
> -Alex
> 
> On Jun 28, 2007, at 11:29 PM, Pelle W wrote:
> 
> > Paul Wilkins skrev:
> >> From: "Alex Faaborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> |> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue
> >> brainstorming the
> >>> best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with
> >>> the rest of the mozilla community.  I'll post updates to this  
> >>> list from  time to time, and it will be interesting to see what  
> >>> interfaces and  names other people come up with as well.
> >> The RSS feeds are accessed in the browser through the feed 
> button. So 
> >> it makes sense that the microformat data should be accessed
> >> through the data button.
> >>
> >> I do like data, it's concise and is easy to explain.
> >>
> >> Q: What kind of data can I get from the data button?
> >> A: Contact details, calender entries, geographic locations, . . .
> >>
> >> Q: Does the data button always get the information?
> >> A: No, only when the page author has specially marked out those
> >> parts of the page.
> > Data sounds good but since RSS also is data the RSS-feed should
> > perhaps be reached from below the data-button to emphasize the  
> > similarities.
> >
> > / Pelle
> > ___
> > microformats-discuss mailing list 
> > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> 
> ___
> microformats-discuss mailing list 
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

I've been giving some thought to framing microformatted content as  
"attachments," along with a little paper clip icon.  This would  
resonate with users who are familiar with email, but on the downside,  
a lot of people have been trained that attachments=danger.


-Alex

On Jun 28, 2007, at 11:29 PM, Pelle W wrote:


Paul Wilkins skrev:

From: "Alex Faaborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
|> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue  
brainstorming the
best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with  
the rest of the mozilla community.  I'll post updates to this  
list from  time to time, and it will be interesting to see what  
interfaces and  names other people come up with as well.

The RSS feeds are accessed in the browser through the feed button.
So it makes sense that the microformat data should be accessed  
through the data button.


I do like data, it's concise and is easy to explain.

Q: What kind of data can I get from the data button?
A: Contact details, calender entries, geographic locations, . . .

Q: Does the data button always get the information?
A: No, only when the page author has specially marked out those  
parts of the page.
Data sounds good but since RSS also is data the RSS-feed should  
perhaps be reached from below the data-button to emphasize the  
similarities.


/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Pelle W]

Paul Wilkins skrev:

From: "Alex Faaborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
|> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the
best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the 
rest of the mozilla community.  I'll post updates to this list from  
time to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and  
names other people come up with as well.

The RSS feeds are accessed in the browser through the feed button.
So it makes sense that the microformat data should be accessed through 
the data button.


I do like data, it's concise and is easy to explain.

Q: What kind of data can I get from the data button?
A: Contact details, calender entries, geographic locations, . . .

Q: Does the data button always get the information?
A: No, only when the page author has specially marked out those parts 
of the page.
Data sounds good but since RSS also is data the RSS-feed should perhaps 
be reached from below the data-button to emphasize the similarities.


/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Michael MD]

The thunderbird developers have been asking about microformats, so  they 
are definitely looking into it.


awesome!
will there be authoring tools in Thunderbird too?

I've been looking for years for some easy-to-use authoring software to 
suggest to media publicists to embed machine-readable events data in those 
html emails they keep sending me!


Will it be able to create combined hcalendar/adr/hcard for event data so 
that the city/country of the event can be marked up?




___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

Off topic slightly: given that FF3 will (may?) have native support for
microformats, will Thunderbird?


The thunderbird developers have been asking about microformats, so  
they are definitely looking into it.  Previous discussions have been  
about hCard, but other formats could of course be sent in HTML emails  
as well.  Mozilla is adding microformat detection to our rendering  
engine, so any Gecko-based Web browser will be able to leverage our  
microformat parsing (Camino, Flock, etc.)


-Alex


On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:06 AM, Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote:


Off topic slightly: given that FF3 will (may?) have native support for
microformats, will Thunderbird?

-Original Message-
From: Thom Shannon

yes, it's a "thing", it's different. FF3 can't just add any address  
you
see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that just  
looks
the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something that  
understands

that specific "thing"

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Tantek Çelik]

On 6/28/07 5:28 PM, "Alex Faaborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Probably none of us here is the right ones to decide something like
>> this...
> 
> Fair enough, several other people have made this point as well.  We
> are always open to feedback about microformat detection in Firefox 3,
> so if anyone has any comments, please feel free to post them to this
> list or email me directly.
> 
>> FF3 perhaps shouldn't call it something
> 
> The menu which contacts, addresses and locations are listed under
> will need some form of name.  Also, journalists will probably want a
> feature name in press briefings and when they make product comparison
> tables, etc.  We aren't likely to call it SuperHyperMetaMagic, but we
> are going to need to call it something.

Perhaps that is right way to capture this issue then, as a *user-interface*
issue.

Alex, go ahead and add a description and labeling of this issue to:

 http://microformats.org/wiki/user-interface

along with the evidence/needs you cited (e.g. number/source of journalists
that have requested a name for microformats features in order to talk about
them).


>> Everybody can choose their own name and it will - by the power of
>> web 2.0 which microformat is very much a part of - become a good
>> word in the end.
> 
> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the
> best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the
> rest of the mozilla community.  I'll post updates to this list from
> time to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and
> names other people come up with as well.

I'd definitely suggest adding thoughts and ideas to the 'user-interface'
page on the microformats wiki so that these issues (and brainstorms) raised
here on the list aren't lost to the pile of email.

Thanks,

Tantek

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Paul Wilkins]

From: "Alex Faaborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
|> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the
best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the 
rest of the mozilla community.  I'll post updates to this list from  time 
to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and  names 
other people come up with as well.


The RSS feeds are accessed in the browser through the feed button.
So it makes sense that the microformat data should be accessed through the 
data button.


I do like data, it's concise and is easy to explain.

Q: What kind of data can I get from the data button?
A: Contact details, calender entries, geographic locations, . . .

Q: Does the data button always get the information?
A: No, only when the page author has specially marked out those parts of the 
page.


--
Paul Wilkins 


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

Probably none of us here is the right ones to decide something like  
this...


Fair enough, several other people have made this point as well.  We  
are always open to feedback about microformat detection in Firefox 3,  
so if anyone has any comments, please feel free to post them to this  
list or email me directly.



FF3 perhaps shouldn't call it something


The menu which contacts, addresses and locations are listed under  
will need some form of name.  Also, journalists will probably want a  
feature name in press briefings and when they make product comparison  
tables, etc.  We aren't likely to call it SuperHyperMetaMagic, but we  
are going to need to call it something.


Everybody can choose their own name and it will - by the power of  
web 2.0 which microformat is very much a part of - become a good  
word in the end.


Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the  
best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the  
rest of the mozilla community.  I'll post updates to this list from  
time to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and  
names other people come up with as well.


-Alex


On Jun 28, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Pelle W wrote:


Ryan King skrev:

On Jun 28, 2007, at 6:13 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:

On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to  
the
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right  
browsers and
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to  
implement

them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"

I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something  
else

re-branded.
I couldn't agree more. I think this discussion is rather  
unproductive for this community. Just build the tools, design them  
well and get people to use them. If you never use the word  
'microformat' in your application, that's fine. No harm, no foul,  
no need to build a new brand.
To use a cool name for this - do it web 2.0 - we as a relatively  
small group of which I'm relatively new can't decide what people  
will call this and FF3 perhaps shouldn't call it something.  
Everybody can choose their own name and it will - by the power of  
web 2.0 which microformat is very much a part of - become a good  
word in the end.
Probably none of us here is the right ones to decide something like  
this...


/ Pelle

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Pelle W]

Ryan King skrev:

On Jun 28, 2007, at 6:13 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:

On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"

I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
re-branded.
I couldn't agree more. I think this discussion is rather unproductive 
for this community. Just build the tools, design them well and get 
people to use them. If you never use the word 'microformat' in your 
application, that's fine. No harm, no foul, no need to build a new brand.
To use a cool name for this - do it web 2.0 - we as a relatively small 
group of which I'm relatively new can't decide what people will call 
this and FF3 perhaps shouldn't call it something. Everybody can choose 
their own name and it will - by the power of web 2.0 which microformat 
is very much a part of - become a good word in the end.

Probably none of us here is the right ones to decide something like this...

/ Pelle

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ryan 
King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes



On Jun 28, 2007, at 1:37 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

hQuote anyone? ;-)


http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-Q


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon

--
Andy Mabbett
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Ryan King]

On Jun 28, 2007, at 6:13 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:


On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers  
and
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to  
implement

them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"


I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
re-branded.


I couldn't agree more. I think this discussion is rather unproductive  
for this community. Just build the tools, design them well and get  
people to use them. If you never use the word 'microformat' in your  
application, that's fine. No harm, no foul, no need to build a new  
brand.


-ryan
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Ryan King]

On Jun 28, 2007, at 1:37 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

hQuote anyone? ;-)


http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-Q

-ryan
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

That's great, I think we should all make an effort to test out some of 
this functionality on other non-geeks and try and get an idea of how 
it's received.


Maybe we can start a wiki page to gather this info?

Can I say again that I think this only applies to a small number of MFs, 
mainly hCal and hCard. Unless anyone else thinks different?


Stephanie Hobson wrote:

Hi All,

I'm normally pretty quite on this list because I'm more of a usability
and front end designer than a programmer.  I thought I'd chip in my
$0.02 though because this is such an interesting discussion.

I agree that the average user needs to be able to call this new
browser ability something.

I think they will most understand it if it is associated with what
they can do with it "download this contact" but that we need a generic
name because they need to be able to understand why it doesn't work on
all contacts all the time.

I'm not sure it's the job of this community to come up with that name
and, in fact, I think we are all too geeky and too familiar with the
idea.  It needs to be something totally unrelated to what we call it.
I think including the words "micro" "format" "semantic" "data" and
"tag" should not be included.

The idea of researching is a great idea!

This is a very small sample size but, well, I called and asked my Mum
what she would call it.  Well I called and asked her if she could
click on a address or an event and add it to her address book or
calendar what she'd call it.  And then asked her how she'd word it if
she was trying to write the slogan for the web browser.

First she said she'd call it "neat" which is a good sign all this work
will be very well received by non geeks ;)  So don't miss this chance
to pat yourself on the back ;)

More seriously she said she'd call it "instant updates".  "Instantly
update your calender with this event." which doesn't meet the
requirement for a name that explains why it only works some time.

My point here is that she used none of the words have come up in our
discussions and that we should engage people from outside the
community when trying to make this decision.

As a side note: I don't think the idea of calling it "neat
information" is that bad actually.  Neat implies that the data is tidy
or well arranged (even semantic) and that it can do something cool.
Information that isn't neat can't do the same things ;)

Thanks,
-Stephanie.
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Stephanie Hobson]

Hi All,

I'm normally pretty quite on this list because I'm more of a usability
and front end designer than a programmer.  I thought I'd chip in my
$0.02 though because this is such an interesting discussion.

I agree that the average user needs to be able to call this new
browser ability something.

I think they will most understand it if it is associated with what
they can do with it "download this contact" but that we need a generic
name because they need to be able to understand why it doesn't work on
all contacts all the time.

I'm not sure it's the job of this community to come up with that name
and, in fact, I think we are all too geeky and too familiar with the
idea.  It needs to be something totally unrelated to what we call it.
I think including the words "micro" "format" "semantic" "data" and
"tag" should not be included.

The idea of researching is a great idea!

This is a very small sample size but, well, I called and asked my Mum
what she would call it.  Well I called and asked her if she could
click on a address or an event and add it to her address book or
calendar what she'd call it.  And then asked her how she'd word it if
she was trying to write the slogan for the web browser.

First she said she'd call it "neat" which is a good sign all this work
will be very well received by non geeks ;)  So don't miss this chance
to pat yourself on the back ;)

More seriously she said she'd call it "instant updates".  "Instantly
update your calender with this event." which doesn't meet the
requirement for a name that explains why it only works some time.

My point here is that she used none of the words have come up in our
discussions and that we should engage people from outside the
community when trying to make this decision.

As a side note: I don't think the idea of calling it "neat
information" is that bad actually.  Neat implies that the data is tidy
or well arranged (even semantic) and that it can do something cool.
Information that isn't neat can't do the same things ;)

Thanks,
-Stephanie.
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

People seem to be put off by words like semantic or microformat. Maybe 
we need to do some more research outside of this mailing list?


Does anyone have any ideas how we could design some research to try and 
answer this? Some scenarios we could user test would be the difference 
between a page with MF and a page without for a user with an MF 
supporting browser but no concept of MF. And a user without an MF 
consumer coming across a page encouraging them to get one.


Ben Ward wrote:

On 28 Jun 2007, at 15:59, Thom Shannon wrote:
yes, it's a "thing", it's different. FF3 can't just add any address 
you see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that 
just looks the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something 
that understands that specific "thing"


So whats the thing called, micro-what? or "Resuable Data" (with the 
MF icon!)


I'm still not sure there's anything there that can't be served with 
the term ‘rich web page’ or ‘semantic web page’ — two terms already in 
use. What is the semantic way to mark up a business card? hCard.


If some reference to the page specifics is required in documentation 
somehow, does ‘microformatted content’ or ‘microformatted web page’ 
not suffice?


Ben
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

Yeah microformats do lots of great and different things, auto tagging 
when someone saves a link is a good example of some useful functionality 
that can just work without any new name. I think hCard and hCal are new, 
this isn't something their web browser hasn't done before, and people 
will want to know why it only works sometimes.



Chris Casciano wrote:


On Jun 27, 2007, at 8:53 PM, Tara Hunt wrote:


Oh and non-experts/non-developers don't talk about data (or content,
really), they talk about:

addresses
photos
blog posts (now)
videos
events
reviews
resumes
etc.

SmartData is nice for us, but all of you are still thinking like
developers ('cause, duh, you ARE developers!).

T



You're right, they don't talk about "data" they talk about objects, 
and a wide variety of them at that.


They don't talk about CSS or Table-less design, or semantic markup, or 
flashobject embeds


Microformats do a *lot* of different things, and they're going to do 
more. I don't think we need a "pretty" outward facing name because 
frankly there isn't one name that would represent all the things being 
done, and I think most of the scenarios should be transparent anyway


Have hAtom in the page? just lump in in with the existing feed 
handling mechanism


Have contacts embedded in the page? Well then you'll want the user to 
"Export Contacts"


Using XFN? "Check for shared friends?"

rel-tag? maybe save the tags behind the scenes when the page is 
bookmarked!



We don't need to invent a new name just so we can present a web surfer 
with a dialog that says "Do you want to save this SuperUltraMarkup 
Event?"



That's just my dollar and a half

--[ Chris Casciano ]
[ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

I was using that as an example. I was just reiterating Andy's point that 
this is something different which needs to be identified, a user needs 
to understand that the website has to support a standard that matches 
what their software is looking for. Otherwise it doesn't work. This can 
then help drive the uptake of MF since clients and managers will want to 
know why they can't use their "add to address book" button on their own 
site, this is where the name is important.


Rickards, Julian (NDM) wrote:

Off topic slightly: given that FF3 will (may?) have native support for
microformats, will Thunderbird?

-Original Message-
From: Thom Shannon

yes, it's a "thing", it's different. FF3 can't just add any address you
see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that just looks
the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something that understands
that specific "thing"

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

  

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Ben Ward]

On 28 Jun 2007, at 15:59, Thom Shannon wrote:
yes, it's a "thing", it's different. FF3 can't just add any address  
you see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that  
just looks the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something  
that understands that specific "thing"


So whats the thing called, micro-what? or "Resuable Data" (with the  
MF icon!)


I'm still not sure there's anything there that can't be served with  
the term ‘rich web page’ or ‘semantic web page’ — two terms already  
in use. What is the semantic way to mark up a business card? hCard.


If some reference to the page specifics is required in documentation  
somehow, does ‘microformatted content’ or ‘microformatted web page’  
not suffice?


Ben
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

RE: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Rickards, Julian (NDM)]

Off topic slightly: given that FF3 will (may?) have native support for
microformats, will Thunderbird?

-Original Message-
From: Thom Shannon

yes, it's a "thing", it's different. FF3 can't just add any address you
see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that just looks
the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something that understands
that specific "thing"

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Chris Casciano]

On Jun 27, 2007, at 8:53 PM, Tara Hunt wrote:


Oh and non-experts/non-developers don't talk about data (or content,
really), they talk about:

addresses
photos
blog posts (now)
videos
events
reviews
resumes
etc.

SmartData is nice for us, but all of you are still thinking like
developers ('cause, duh, you ARE developers!).

T



You're right, they don't talk about "data" they talk about objects,  
and a wide variety of them at that.


They don't talk about CSS or Table-less design, or semantic markup,  
or flashobject embeds


Microformats do a *lot* of different things, and they're going to do  
more. I don't think we need a "pretty" outward facing name because  
frankly there isn't one name that would represent all the things  
being done, and I think most of the scenarios should be transparent  
anyway


Have hAtom in the page? just lump in in with the existing feed  
handling mechanism


Have contacts embedded in the page? Well then you'll want the user to  
"Export Contacts"


Using XFN? "Check for shared friends?"

rel-tag? maybe save the tags behind the scenes when the page is  
bookmarked!



We don't need to invent a new name just so we can present a web  
surfer with a dialog that says "Do you want to save this  
SuperUltraMarkup Event?"



That's just my dollar and a half

--
[ Chris Casciano ]
[ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

yes, it's a "thing", it's different. FF3 can't just add any address you 
see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that just looks 
the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something that understands 
that specific "thing"


So whats the thing called, micro-what? or "Resuable Data" (with the MF 
icon!)



Andy Mabbett wrote:
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Thompson 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out 
of  pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And 
people  need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable 
Information".


"The new version of our browser will let you pull contacts and events 
out of web pages and into your address book and calendar."


What's wrong with that?


It doesn't tell people why it will work on some sites and not others; 
or that there's a way they can change the pages they publish to make 
the content available is such a way.


We *do* need some sort of label, to tell people that this is something 
new.



___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Thompson 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out 
of  pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And 
people  need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable 
Information".


"The new version of our browser will let you pull contacts and events 
out of web pages and into your address book and calendar."


What's wrong with that?


It doesn't tell people why it will work on some sites and not others; or 
that there's a way they can change the pages they publish to make the 
content available is such a way.


We *do* need some sort of label, to tell people that this is something 
new.


--
Andy Mabbett
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

Im not advocating a name that catches all microformats, just the ones 
that are useful to someone who wants to reuse data from a webpage. hCa* 
and maybe a couple of others.


Why does this need a user facing name? Well it's going to be a very long 
time before microformats are truely ubiquitous, so websites may want to 
announce their support for this functionality. A lot of people will want 
plugins until their preferred browser catches up (I'm looking at IE) how 
do they know what plugin to get to use the data in these pages?


"This site supports Reusable Data, get a Reusable Data add-on for your 
web browser to save typing things out"



Ben Ward wrote:

On 28 Jun 2007, at 14:40, Thom Shannon wrote:
I get your point, but as Alex pointed out people are interested in 
this microformats thing but dont want to call it that, journos are 
refusing to talk about it because "the term 'microformats' would only 
appeal to developers, and not the average reader"


But it is impossible to have a meaningful or descriptive name that 
catches all microformats, let alone to an ‘average reader’. I'm also 
not sure which subset of journalists wish to write articles about the 
data formats themselves, but whose audience would balk at a reference 
to microformats.org.


Anyone writing for the average user would surely be writing in the 
context of browser functionality (as and when it ships: namely Firefox 
3). And when referencing the functionality of those features, it makes 
most sense to use the terms ‘address’, ‘location’, ‘map’, ‘event’, 
‘appointment’, ‘contact’ or ‘business card’ and other such words. 
That's all microformats are to end users. We provide a standardised, 
digital form of those physical-world concepts. A journalist could 
write ‘Firefox 3 allows you to interact with business cards and events 
in web pages like never before, bridging the gap between the pages you 
read and other applications’. That is surely a gazillion times better 
than trying to encourage ‘Firefox 3 ships with support for Hyper Data, 
which allows web pages to…’.  Such a generic and meaningless term not 
only adds nothing, but distracts from the real benefits of Microformat 
deployment (by which I mean all the name suggestions in this thread, 
not just my facetious overuse of the word ‘hyper’).


We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out 
of pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And 
people need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable 
Information".


For the people who will be putting the data in the pages — developers 
— we have names. Yes, microformats and h* is all very techie, but 
that's perfectly acceptable for developers.


End-users don't need to know anything at all about _how_ or _why_ 
their new browser functionality works, only that it's an awesome new 
feature that's going to improve their life.


Who is the group in the middle that this wooly new terminology is 
going to serve? I don't see it.


Ben



___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
writes


Yeah, which is why I dont think we should throw away all that effort 
but use it. Design a logo that echoes the MF logo, maybe even base the 
name on it?


Microform
Microtag


Microcontent (which perhaps covers compound microformats, but not things 
like "rel")?


--
Andy Mabbett
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Ben Ward]

On 28 Jun 2007, at 14:40, Thom Shannon wrote:
I get your point, but as Alex pointed out people are interested in  
this microformats thing but dont want to call it that, journos are  
refusing to talk about it because "the term 'microformats' would  
only appeal to developers, and not the average reader"


But it is impossible to have a meaningful or descriptive name that  
catches all microformats, let alone to an ‘average reader’. I'm also  
not sure which subset of journalists wish to write articles about the  
data formats themselves, but whose audience would balk at a reference  
to microformats.org.


Anyone writing for the average user would surely be writing in the  
context of browser functionality (as and when it ships: namely  
Firefox 3). And when referencing the functionality of those features,  
it makes most sense to use the terms ‘address’, ‘location’, ‘map’,  
‘event’, ‘appointment’, ‘contact’ or ‘business card’ and other such  
words. That's all microformats are to end users. We provide a  
standardised, digital form of those physical-world concepts. A  
journalist could write ‘Firefox 3 allows you to interact with  
business cards and events in web pages like never before, bridging  
the gap between the pages you read and other applications’. That is  
surely a gazillion times better than trying to encourage ‘Firefox 3  
ships with support for Hyper Data, which allows web pages to…’.  Such  
a generic and meaningless term not only adds nothing, but distracts  
from the real benefits of Microformat deployment (by which I mean all  
the name suggestions in this thread, not just my facetious overuse of  
the word ‘hyper’).


We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted  
out of pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it.  
And people need to call it something. Maybe it should just be  
"Reusable Information".


For the people who will be putting the data in the pages — developers  
— we have names. Yes, microformats and h* is all very techie, but  
that's perfectly acceptable for developers.


End-users don't need to know anything at all about _how_ or _why_  
their new browser functionality works, only that it's an awesome new  
feature that's going to improve their life.


Who is the group in the middle that this wooly new terminology is  
going to serve? I don't see it.


Ben



___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[David Thompson]

Thom Shannon wrote:
I get your point, but as Alex pointed out people are interested in this 
microformats thing but dont want to call it that, journos are refusing 
to talk about it because "the term 'microformats' would only appeal to 
developers, and not the average reader"


As it should be: the "average reader" does not, and should not have to, 
care about Microformats, any more than they care about whether the site 
they're viewing is coded in HTML or Flash, or whether the image they're 
looking at is a JPG, a GIF or a PNG. They just care about being able to 
*do things with it*.


We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out of 
pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And people 
need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable Information".


"The new version of our browser will let you pull contacts and events 
out of web pages and into your address book and calendar."


What's wrong with that?

--
David Thompson
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

I get your point, but as Alex pointed out people are interested in this 
microformats thing but dont want to call it that, journos are refusing 
to talk about it because "the term 'microformats' would only appeal to 
developers, and not the average reader"


We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out of 
pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And people 
need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable Information".


"This information is reusable, click here to see how"
"Reuse this > Add to address book"

Ben Ward wrote:

On 27 Jun 2007, at 23:09, Thom Shannon wrote:
I know this topic comes up a lot and we'd all like to see 
Microformats change the lives of millions of ordinary internet users, 
that's why we're all here!


My friend just asked me an interesting question, is Microformats the 
right name for it?


Sorry, but this discussion seems absurd to me.

Microformats is a good name for developers. It encompasses a large 
range of different, mostly discrete and often unrelated data formats. 
It has nothing at all to do with user-facing exposure of that data.


No-one is ever (read: should ever) create a web browser with a ‘Get 
Microformats’ button other than as a developer testing tool. But the 
idea that we need some other name with ‘Super’, ‘Hyper’ and ‘Smart’ in 
the name is verging on the hilarious.


Here's what should happen:

Developers will use a microformat in their page to describe reviews, 
addresses or calendar appointments. User agents will then expose them 
as… reviews, addresses and calendar appointments.


I cannot for the life of me see why we are trying to abstract useful 
functionality at a user-end with a nonsensical name like ‘Smart Data’ 
when ‘Address’, ‘Event’ and ‘Location’ have served the English 
language very well so far.


Finally, an all-encompassing term for all microformats going to be 
useless to end users. Apart from the aforementioned abstraction of 
what the data really is and really should be used for, microformats 
are so varied that a generic term will be meaningless. XOXO and Geo? 
Branding them ‘Hyper Smart Data Enabled’ isn't going to help an end 
user any more than ‘microformat’. Exposing functionality where useful 
is. And that functionality doesn't need a µf.org endorsed name; the 
functionality should be named as appropriate, not the data format.


To draw a parallel: We do not ‘consume HTML documents’, we ‘read web 
pages’. Consumers of microformats will not ‘consume Smart Data’ they 
will ‘add contacts to their address books’, ‘print address labels’, 
‘find other employees of this organisation’ and ‘show a map of this 
location’. I would strongly discourage any implementer from trying to 
dress up simple functionality with a catch-all term. It will be 
utterly confusing users with yet another hunk of IT jargon.


Thanks,

Ben
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

RE: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Rickards, Julian (NDM)]

Not to suggest a change to the name but when you compare the size of the
specs for the Elemental Microformats such as XFN, VoteLinks, and
Rel-Nofollow with the Compound Microformats such as hCard, hCalendar and
hReview, it seems like the latter might be better suited under the
umbrella of "mini-formats". 

-Original Message-
From: Ben Ward

Microformats is a good name for developers. It encompasses a large range
of different, mostly discrete and often unrelated data formats.  
It has nothing at all to do with user-facing exposure of that data.

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Frances Berriman]

On 28/06/07, Jon Tan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Frances Berriman wrote:
> [...]  As is the microformats
> principle, perhaps we should see what turns up naturally in the wild
> as the way people describe such pages and go with that as a guide.

Maybe this is over simplistic but my mum understands "download".


Agreed.  My mother doesn't often use (or even understand) terms like
semantic or meta-data or even extraction.  Download she gets.  She
knows it means she's taking something from a webpage and putting it
somewhere else. Simple.  How that's done she couldn't give a monkies
about and, frankly, should never HAVE to know.


That seems to me to be the most natural and ubiquitous term understood
in the wild by all people today.

The option for a person to download and add a specific event, set of
contact details etc. from a uF enabled page would seem to be an optimal
outcome. Fundamentally, users are downloading that data first, then
adding it to an application -- usually requiring an extra step to
confirm that action in a dialogue box.

Seeing the uF or downloads icon then a list of available uF "downloads"
to cherry pick from would also be easily understood and used.


Agreed.  And no "re-branding" or user safe naming had to be done.  Why
invent problems that don't currently exist for users who want to
consume microformatted data?

Those who want to create pages with microformats and therefore your
"smart pages" are more-or-less two kinds of people - simple publishers
(like my dad and his blog, for example) or actual web developers like
ourselves.

The first kind of people don't want to (and shouldn't have to) touch
the mark-up so their publishing tools should be doing it for them and
the second kind ought to be able to cope with the term "microformats"
to describe what they are doing.


--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Pelle W]

Frances Berriman skrev:

On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"

I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
re-branded.
I agree - and with the adoption of those tools words will naturally 
emerge that describes the activity in a good way like photoshopping and 
googling has emerged even though their creators didn't wan't them to 
emerge...


/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Jon Tan]

Frances Berriman wrote:

[...]  As is the microformats
principle, perhaps we should see what turns up naturally in the wild
as the way people describe such pages and go with that as a guide.


Maybe this is over simplistic but my mum understands "download".

That seems to me to be the most natural and ubiquitous term understood 
in the wild by all people today.


The option for a person to download and add a specific event, set of 
contact details etc. from a uF enabled page would seem to be an optimal 
outcome. Fundamentally, users are downloading that data first, then 
adding it to an application -- usually requiring an extra step to 
confirm that action in a dialogue box.


Seeing the uF or downloads icon then a list of available uF "downloads" 
to cherry pick from would also be easily understood and used.


All the best,
Jon Tan

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Ben Ward]

On 27 Jun 2007, at 23:09, Thom Shannon wrote:
I know this topic comes up a lot and we'd all like to see  
Microformats change the lives of millions of ordinary internet  
users, that's why we're all here!


My friend just asked me an interesting question, is Microformats  
the right name for it?


Sorry, but this discussion seems absurd to me.

Microformats is a good name for developers. It encompasses a large  
range of different, mostly discrete and often unrelated data formats.  
It has nothing at all to do with user-facing exposure of that data.


No-one is ever (read: should ever) create a web browser with a ‘Get  
Microformats’ button other than as a developer testing tool. But the  
idea that we need some other name with ‘Super’, ‘Hyper’ and ‘Smart’  
in the name is verging on the hilarious.


Here's what should happen:

Developers will use a microformat in their page to describe reviews,  
addresses or calendar appointments. User agents will then expose them  
as… reviews, addresses and calendar appointments.


I cannot for the life of me see why we are trying to abstract useful  
functionality at a user-end with a nonsensical name like ‘Smart Data’  
when ‘Address’, ‘Event’ and ‘Location’ have served the English  
language very well so far.


Finally, an all-encompassing term for all microformats going to be  
useless to end users. Apart from the aforementioned abstraction of  
what the data really is and really should be used for, microformats  
are so varied that a generic term will be meaningless. XOXO and Geo?  
Branding them ‘Hyper Smart Data Enabled’ isn't going to help an end  
user any more than ‘microformat’. Exposing functionality where useful  
is. And that functionality doesn't need a µf.org endorsed name; the  
functionality should be named as appropriate, not the data format.


To draw a parallel: We do not ‘consume HTML documents’, we ‘read web  
pages’. Consumers of microformats will not ‘consume Smart Data’ they  
will ‘add contacts to their address books’, ‘print address labels’,  
‘find other employees of this organisation’ and ‘show a map of this  
location’. I would strongly discourage any implementer from trying to  
dress up simple functionality with a catch-all term. It will be  
utterly confusing users with yet another hunk of IT jargon.


Thanks,

Ben
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Frances Berriman]

On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"


I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
re-branded.

--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the 
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and 
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement 
them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"



Alex Faaborg wrote:
One reason to consider having both an implementation-level name and an 
interface-level name:  Mozilla has had multiple inquiries from 
reporters in the mainstream media who wanted to cover microformats in 
stories about the future of the Web browser, but they then later 
backed out because they felt the term "microformats" would only appeal 
to developers, and not the average reader.


Also, from a user interface design perspective, we really shouldn't 
expose implementation-level terminology to end users.


-Alex


On Jun 28, 2007, at 4:35 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alex 
Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


this  description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 
include  support for offline Web applications, private browsing, 
blocking  malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat 
detection]__"


...data detection?
...semantic browsing?
...data browsing?
...semantic data detection?
...semantic data browsing?
...semantic data navigating?


"data extraction"

Though it strikes me as odd that we expend efforts trying to raise 
"brand awareness" for microformats, then start top discuss renaming 
them...


We should think long and hard about whether that's a good idea.

--Andy Mabbett
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

One reason to consider having both an implementation-level name and  
an interface-level name:  Mozilla has had multiple inquiries from  
reporters in the mainstream media who wanted to cover microformats in  
stories about the future of the Web browser, but they then later  
backed out because they felt the term "microformats" would only  
appeal to developers, and not the average reader.


Also, from a user interface design perspective, we really shouldn't  
expose implementation-level terminology to end users.


-Alex


On Jun 28, 2007, at 4:35 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alex  
Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


this  description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3  
include  support for offline Web applications, private browsing,  
blocking  malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat  
detection]__"


...data detection?
...semantic browsing?
...data browsing?
...semantic data detection?
...semantic data browsing?
...semantic data navigating?


"data extraction"

Though it strikes me as odd that we expend efforts trying to raise  
"brand awareness" for microformats, then start top discuss renaming  
them...


We should think long and hard about whether that's a good idea.

--
Andy Mabbett
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

Yeah, which is why I dont think we should throw away all that effort but 
use it. Design a logo that echoes the MF logo, maybe even base the name 
on it?


Microform
Microtag

It will be a subset of the full range of microformat standards but 
clearly part of the same thing.


Andy Mabbett wrote:
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alex 
Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


this  description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 
include  support for offline Web applications, private browsing, 
blocking  malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat 
detection]__"


...data detection?
...semantic browsing?
...data browsing?
...semantic data detection?
...semantic data browsing?
...semantic data navigating?


"data extraction"

Though it strikes me as odd that we expend efforts trying to raise 
"brand awareness" for microformats, then start top discuss renaming 
them...


We should think long and hard about whether that's a good idea.


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Frances Berriman]

On 28/06/07, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alex
Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>this  description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3
>include  support for offline Web applications, private browsing,
>blocking  malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat
>detection]__"
>
>...data detection?
>...semantic browsing?
>...data browsing?
>...semantic data detection?
>...semantic data browsing?
>...semantic data navigating?

"data extraction"

Though it strikes me as odd that we expend efforts trying to raise
"brand awareness" for microformats, then start top discuss renaming
them...

We should think long and hard about whether that's a good idea.


Agreed.  I'd prefer the approach of seeing what people who aren't us
want to do with them and call them, first.

--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alex 
Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes


this  description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 
include  support for offline Web applications, private browsing, 
blocking  malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat 
detection]__"


...data detection?
...semantic browsing?
...data browsing?
...semantic data detection?
...semantic data browsing?
...semantic data navigating?


"data extraction"

Though it strikes me as odd that we expend efforts trying to raise 
"brand awareness" for microformats, then start top discuss renaming 
them...


We should think long and hard about whether that's a good idea.

--
Andy Mabbett
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

RE: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Montgomery, Mike]

I agree, I don't think there needs to be a different term for
Microformats specifically geared towards the general web user ("like my
mum").  Specific names for each public-facing uF would be nice where the
user would recognize hCard content as a "Smart Name" or hCal as a "Smart
Date" but I don't think a new term that bundles all Microformats is
warranted.  

If you create a new term that is just a "slick" name for Microformats,
you should be prepared to completely do away with the term
"Microformats".  If a majority of people are calling it "Slick Name", I
don't see the need to use the term Microformats when talking among my
developer buddies.  I'm just going to call it "Slick Name".  Just my 2
cents...

-Mike


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tara
Hunt
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:50 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.

I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.

The one that could use a bit of massaging is XFN. FOAF, which is not a
nice spec, had a more generically used acronym.

As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
talking to developers and advanced content producers.

Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits
out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.

It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?

T
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

HyperSense?

David Janes wrote:

On 6/28/07, Alex Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Right, we need a general user facing way of describing microformat
detection, in order to describe the various applications (like Web
browsers, feed readers and extensions like Operator) that let the
user take actions on microformatted content.  For instance, this
description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 include
support for offline Web applications, private browsing, blocking
malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat detection]__"

...data detection?
...semantic browsing?
...data browsing?
...semantic data detection?
...semantic data browsing?
...semantic data navigating?

If Operator and Firefox 3 are in a category of uF enabled
applications, what should that category of applications be called?
Or another way of putting it:

Feed Readers :: RSS
__ :: microformats



Live Data [1]? Already used...
Wired Web
Wire Page?
Dynamic Pages?
Dynamic Data?
Smart Page (not bad, riffing off Smart Tags)

Applications add "Reader" (like Feed Reader) or "Processor" (like Word
Processor) or "Importer" (like address book, and actually describes
what is happening) or "Appliance"

Hmmm ... Smart Page Reader ...

Regards, etc...

[1] 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22live+data%22+microformats&btnG=Search 




___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

I just think it would be good to bring these handy microformat driven 
functions under a banner that isn't confused by the other things 
microformats do. The idea of pulling these bits of data out of a page 
and using them elsewhere is one of many features of microformats and 
something that people would use every day. A logo that could sit next to 
the feed icon would be perfect, and a simple name so everyone 
understands what they are, and can promote them.


I want to be able to sell this to my clients, I want to show them this 
cool thing supported by the next generation of browsers that they can 
have in their websites too.


Benjamin West wrote:

On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.

[snip]


It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?

T


I agree.  I'm not sure why an end user would even want know.  Most 
people just
want to find that phone number, call their friend, and get on with 
their life,

or whatever it is they were doing.
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Pelle W]

Alex Faaborg skrev:

Therefore, uFs don't need a user-facing name - their
applications do.
If Operator and Firefox 3 are in a category of uF enabled 
applications, what should that category of applications be called?  Or 
another way of putting it:


Feed Readers :: RSS
__ :: microformats
I would say that Microformat = XML and therefor you say that "this reads 
microformats" as much as you can say "this reads XML".
What you can say is that "this reads RSS" or "this reads XHTML" or "this 
reads some other cool XML-namespace" and the same is true for 
microformats - you can say that "this reads hCards", that "this reads 
hCalendars" etc.


NetNewsWire 3 reads hCards and hCalendars for example.

But I kind of understand you because Firefox 3 and Operator are 
supposed to read with plugins and as such can read anything there's a 
plugin for, but it shouldn't replicate "feed readers" but rather 
something above "feed readers" which perhaps also includes them.


Wouldn't "metadata-enabled browser" be one possible description? All 
microformats that someones mum would be interested in would contain some 
kind of metadata - wouldn't it? Another description could be 
"semantically enabled browsing". Both those description should include 
RSS and other similar XML-namespaces containing metadata/semantics 
relevant to the browser.


/ Pelle
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Frances Berriman]

On 28/06/07, David Janes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 6/28/07, Alex Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Right, we need a general user facing way of describing microformat
> detection, in order to describe the various applications (like Web
> browsers, feed readers and extensions like Operator) that let the
> user take actions on microformatted content.  For instance, this
> description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 include
> support for offline Web applications, private browsing, blocking
> malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat detection]__"
>
> ...data detection?
> ...semantic browsing?
> ...data browsing?
> ...semantic data detection?
> ...semantic data browsing?
> ...semantic data navigating?
>
> If Operator and Firefox 3 are in a category of uF enabled
> applications, what should that category of applications be called?
> Or another way of putting it:
>
> Feed Readers :: RSS
> __ :: microformats
>

Live Data [1]? Already used...
Wired Web
Wire Page?
Dynamic Pages?
Dynamic Data?
Smart Page (not bad, riffing off Smart Tags)

Applications add "Reader" (like Feed Reader) or "Processor" (like Word
Processor) or "Importer" (like address book, and actually describes
what is happening) or "Appliance"

Hmmm ... Smart Page Reader ...


Personally, Smart Page and Reader bothers me the least.

How did the term "Feed Reader" turn up?  As is the microformats
principle, perhaps we should see what turns up naturally in the wild
as the way people describe such pages and go with that as a guide.


--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[David Janes]

On 6/28/07, Alex Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Right, we need a general user facing way of describing microformat
detection, in order to describe the various applications (like Web
browsers, feed readers and extensions like Operator) that let the
user take actions on microformatted content.  For instance, this
description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 include
support for offline Web applications, private browsing, blocking
malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat detection]__"

...data detection?
...semantic browsing?
...data browsing?
...semantic data detection?
...semantic data browsing?
...semantic data navigating?

If Operator and Firefox 3 are in a category of uF enabled
applications, what should that category of applications be called?
Or another way of putting it:

Feed Readers :: RSS
__ :: microformats



Live Data [1]? Already used...
Wired Web
Wire Page?
Dynamic Pages?
Dynamic Data?
Smart Page (not bad, riffing off Smart Tags)

Applications add "Reader" (like Feed Reader) or "Processor" (like Word
Processor) or "Importer" (like address book, and actually describes
what is happening) or "Appliance"

Hmmm ... Smart Page Reader ...

Regards, etc...

[1] 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22live+data%22+microformats&btnG=Search

--
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

Therefore, uFs don't need a user-facing name - their
applications do.


Right, we need a general user facing way of describing microformat  
detection, in order to describe the various applications (like Web  
browsers, feed readers and extensions like Operator) that let the  
user take actions on microformatted content.  For instance, this  
description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 include  
support for offline Web applications, private browsing, blocking  
malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat detection]__"


...data detection?
...semantic browsing?
...data browsing?
...semantic data detection?
...semantic data browsing?
...semantic data navigating?

If Operator and Firefox 3 are in a category of uF enabled  
applications, what should that category of applications be called?   
Or another way of putting it:


Feed Readers :: RSS
__ :: microformats

-Alex


On Jun 28, 2007, at 2:39 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:


On 28/06/07, Pelle W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm  
wondering

>> how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.
>>
>> I've thought about this before...I can see the specific  
microformats,
>> like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in  
reality,
>> these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of  
iconic

>> marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
I agree with Tara here. Microformats is interesting for developers
because it tells us in what way the solution works but for my mum it
would tell nothing. My mom knows however what an address is and  
what a

calendar is and because of that it's the microformats in itself that
should be given common names like "web feeds" for RSS. I don't  
know but

have XML been given a humane name yet? Because XML is to RSS what
Microformats is to hCard.


I concur on this line of thinking.  Microformats are the technological
name - my mum should never have to come across the term any more than
she should have to come across the term XML.  I think Operator does a
good job of hiding the term in that it simply shows what you can
actually do with data in the page (add this to my google calendar
etc.).  Therefore, uFs don't need a user-facing name - their
applications do.


If Microformats should be given a more humane name then that would be
something about semantics. Semanticdata perhaps - but it wouldn't  
make

anyone happier I think because the only ones who would be interested
would be those who already knows what Microformats is.
>> As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't  
know if
>> the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be  
what POSH

>> was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
>> talking to developers and advanced content producers.


I've said it before, but I don't think there's any need to reiterate
what semantic HTML for is via *another* name, for developers. POSH is
bad enough.

--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alex 
Faaborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes



microformat UI design  for Firefox 3


when the user hovers the mouse over an area of the page  that contains 
microformatted content, we will change the cursor to  display the 
associated application (or a generic icon if no default  has been 
selected):


http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070426-detectionUI2/ 
cursorChange.jpg


The mouse cursor change will also hopefully apply to file types and 
protocols (mailto:, webcal:, etc.)


Firstly, your URLs aren't wrapping properly, in my mail client., Others' 
do. Is there anything you can do to fix that, or perhaps you could also 
use TinyURL or similar?


I hope that that behaviour will be user-configurable, so that it can be 
switched off if desired (I do think it should be on by default, to raise 
awareness).


In our designs we avoid showing the user the microformat name, and 
focus on the associated application.  Instead of seeing "geo" or  "adr" 
the user will only see "Google Earth" (or a generic picture of  a globe 
if they haven't chosen an application yet, probably on  microformat 
green).


That default colour should change, if there's a green/ yellow/ blue 
background (for reasons of contrast) or a red background (red-green 
colour blindness is the most common type).


Due to privacy concerns the browser can't expose the user's default 
applications to Web sites, so I think Web developers should be 
encouraged to design based on actions, not data.  A green button that 
says "Send to Calendar" is considerably more useable than a green 
button that says "hCal" (actually these are often red for some  reason, 
http://microformats.org/wiki/icons).


Be aware also that WCAG and other accessibility guidelines speak against 
using colour alone to convey information.


Also, I personally  think Web designers should be encouraged to use 
images instead of  acronyms.


Amen!

In addition to being more descriptive, they localize  better.  Here are 
some I've been showing in various talks:


http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20061213-fundamentalTypes/ 
fundamentalTypesStatic.jpg_large.jpg


Those look good, but I'd like to see them at the size at which they will 
be used.


The "contact" icon is good for a person, but what of the subject is a 
group, organisation, or venue? (differentiated by "fn org" instead of 
"fn")? A different icon should be used.


--
Andy Mabbett
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Frances Berriman]

On 28/06/07, Pelle W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
>> how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.
>>
>> I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
>> like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
>> these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
>> marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
I agree with Tara here. Microformats is interesting for developers
because it tells us in what way the solution works but for my mum it
would tell nothing. My mom knows however what an address is and what a
calendar is and because of that it's the microformats in itself that
should be given common names like "web feeds" for RSS. I don't know but
have XML been given a humane name yet? Because XML is to RSS what
Microformats is to hCard.


I concur on this line of thinking.  Microformats are the technological
name - my mum should never have to come across the term any more than
she should have to come across the term XML.  I think Operator does a
good job of hiding the term in that it simply shows what you can
actually do with data in the page (add this to my google calendar
etc.).  Therefore, uFs don't need a user-facing name - their
applications do.


If Microformats should be given a more humane name then that would be
something about semantics. Semanticdata perhaps - but it wouldn't make
anyone happier I think because the only ones who would be interested
would be those who already knows what Microformats is.
>> As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
>> the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
>> was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
>> talking to developers and advanced content producers.


I've said it before, but I don't think there's any need to reiterate
what semantic HTML for is via *another* name, for developers. POSH is
bad enough.

--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Pelle W]

On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.

I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
I agree with Tara here. Microformats is interesting for developers 
because it tells us in what way the solution works but for my mum it 
would tell nothing. My mom knows however what an address is and what a 
calendar is and because of that it's the microformats in itself that 
should be given common names like "web feeds" for RSS. I don't know but 
have XML been given a humane name yet? Because XML is to RSS what 
Microformats is to hCard.


If Microformats should be given a more humane name then that would be 
something about semantics. Semanticdata perhaps - but it wouldn't make 
anyone happier I think because the only ones who would be interested 
would be those who already knows what Microformats is.

As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
talking to developers and advanced content producers.

I agree wth Tara here also.
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Miles Fidelman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>Paul Wilkins wrote:
>> From: "Tara Hunt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
>>> technology and magic?
>>
>> it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher -
>>usability for the masses.
>>
>The Clark quote is "any sufficiently advanced technology is
>indistinguishable from magic."

Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

>Personally, I prefer the following, which I saw in someone's sig line
>recently: "if it's distinguishable from magic, it isn't sufficiently
>advanced."

'In the first non-Asimov Foundation Novel, the emperor declares,
"If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is
insufficiently advanced." This is a paraphrase of Gehm's
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law, "Any technology distinguishable
from magic is insufficiently advanced." '

  

hQuote anyone? ;-)

-- 
Andy Mabbett
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Michael MD]

>
> A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP,
> maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some
of the UI
> stuff it did was really good.



I haven't seen the Smart Tags stuff (where do I find it?)... could it be 
somehow adapted for use with microformats?

... or would a tool to convert between them be useful?



___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

For me, the question is what does the non-developer end-user  
perceive when they see the "SmartData" icon?  How does that relate  
to their world? It isn't about the formatting or the HTML tags...  
Those are things that end-users don't really care about or even  
conceptuallize.


In case anyone is curious what is going on with microformat UI design  
for Firefox 3, we are considering presenting microformatted content  
to the user with an icon in the location bar, similar to RSS (and  
possibly RSS and microformats will be grouped into a more generic  
"send data to application" icon, which was brought up in a different  
thread on microformats-discuss):


http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070204-detectionUI/ 
locationBarMenu.jpg_large.jpg


Additionally, when the user hovers the mouse over an area of the page  
that contains microformatted content, we will change the cursor to  
display the associated application (or a generic icon if no default  
has been selected):


http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070426-detectionUI2/ 
cursorChange.jpg


The mouse cursor change will also hopefully apply to file types and  
protocols (mailto:, webcal:, etc.)



I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
these are pretty descriptive.


In our designs we avoid showing the user the microformat name, and  
focus on the associated application.  Instead of seeing "geo" or  
"adr" the user will only see "Google Earth" (or a generic picture of  
a globe if they haven't chosen an application yet, probably on  
microformat green).


Due to privacy concerns the browser can't expose the user's default  
applications to Web sites, so I think Web developers should be  
encouraged to design based on actions, not data.  A green button that  
says "Send to Calendar" is considerably more useable than a green  
button that says "hCal" (actually these are often red for some  
reason, http://microformats.org/wiki/icons).  Also, I personally  
think Web designers should be encouraged to use images instead of  
acronyms.  In addition to being more descriptive, they localize  
better.  Here are some I've been showing in various talks:


http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20061213-fundamentalTypes/ 
fundamentalTypesStatic.jpg_large.jpg


-Alex


On Jun 27, 2007, at 6:14 PM, Paul Wilkins wrote:


From: "Tara Hunt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that  
spits

out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.


This means that the tools people use to create their web pages will  
need to provide a mechanism for them to add microformat data to  
their content, without necessarily having to dig into the code.


So, first steps.

Select an area of text to be used as an hCard and click an hCard  
button


When an hCard area of text is defined, buttons become available to  
define different sections


Select text to be the persons name and click a name button
- if the name appears to be parsable as a fn, ask if the given name  
is one of a series of example formats
- if the name isn't a correct format, let them pick and choose  
which parts are what


Select phone number and click a phone number button
- if an appropriate type is not included with the selected phone  
number, but one is nearby, ask if that should be included as the type



It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?


it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher -  
usability for the masses.


--
Paul Wilkins
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Miles Fidelman]

Paul Wilkins wrote:

From: "Tara Hunt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?


it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher - 
usability for the masses.


The Clark quote is "any sufficiently advanced technology is 
indistinguishable from magic."


Personally, I prefer the following, which I saw in someone's sig line 
recently: "if it's distinguishable from magic, it isn't sufficiently 
advanced."

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Benjamin West]

On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.

[snip]


It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?

T


I agree.  I'm not sure why an end user would even want know.  Most people just
want to find that phone number, call their friend, and get on with their life,
or whatever it is they were doing.
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Paul Wilkins]

From: "Tara Hunt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits
out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.


This means that the tools people use to create their web pages will need to 
provide a mechanism for them to add microformat data to their content, 
without necessarily having to dig into the code.


So, first steps.

Select an area of text to be used as an hCard and click an hCard button

When an hCard area of text is defined, buttons become available to define 
different sections


Select text to be the persons name and click a name button
- if the name appears to be parsable as a fn, ask if the given name is one 
of a series of example formats
- if the name isn't a correct format, let them pick and choose which parts 
are what


Select phone number and click a phone number button
- if an appropriate type is not included with the selected phone number, but 
one is nearby, ask if that should be included as the type



It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?


it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher - usability for 
the masses.


--
Paul Wilkins 


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Tara Hunt]

Oh and non-experts/non-developers don't talk about data (or content,
really), they talk about:

addresses
photos
blog posts (now)
videos
events
reviews
resumes
etc.

SmartData is nice for us, but all of you are still thinking like
developers ('cause, duh, you ARE developers!).

T

On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.

I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.

The one that could use a bit of massaging is XFN. FOAF, which is not a
nice spec, had a more generically used acronym.

As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
talking to developers and advanced content producers.

Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits
out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.

It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?

T




--
tara 'miss rogue' hunt
co-founder & CMO
Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com)
blog: www.horsepigcow.com
phone: 415-694-1951
fax: 415-727-5335
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Tara Hunt]

Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.

I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.

The one that could use a bit of massaging is XFN. FOAF, which is not a
nice spec, had a more generically used acronym.

As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
talking to developers and advanced content producers.

Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits
out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.

It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?

T
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

RE: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Joe Andrieu]

Alex Faaborg wrote[edited for chronology]:
> On Jun 27, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Thom Shannon wrote:
> > Yeah, exactly that kind of thing.
> >
> > A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP,
> > maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some 
> of the UI  
> > stuff it did was really good.
> >
> > IntelliTags
> > Infolets
> > Infobits
> > Open Smart Tags? ;-)
> >
> I'm a little wary of associating microformats too closely with Smart  
> Tags or IntelliSense given the massive public outcry Microsoft  
> received when they considered including the feature in IE6.  There  
> are obviously some very important distinctions between the two  
> systems, (microformats are open and extensible, and web site 
> creators  
> place microformats in their pages instead of the browser injecting  
> them).  But these distinctions may be subtle enough to cause some  
> initial confusion if the user facing name is similar.


I would suggest that uF aren't about the formating or the tagging. It's about 
the data.

Perhaps SmartData.

I'm not sure I like that, but it's sort of what uF does for you. Dumb data 
can't be heard/seen. Dumb data stuck in HTML is almost
useless for augmenting the browsing experience or assimilating into the 
semantic web.

SmartData is instantly available to apps in a way they can actually use. 
SmartData in HTML allows standard javascript and browser
plug-ins to do smart things.

For me, the question is what does the non-developer end-user perceive when they 
see the "SmartData" icon?  How does that relate to
their world? It isn't about the formatting or the HTML tags... Those are things 
that end-users don't really care about or even
conceptuallize.  

When Grandma visits MovieFone.com and it has a "SmartData" icon, I think maybe 
it will eventually make sense that clicking on the
icon lets her add that movie to her Outlook calendar...

Note also that I would say SmartData is any POSH that is understood by the 
client app in a smart way. uF are the broadest library of
POSH, but certainly not the only option.

SmartText might also work.


$0.02 worth of product branding.

-j


--
Joe Andrieu
SwitchBook Software
http://www.switchbook.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1 (805) 705-8651 



___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Paul Wilkins]

From: "Alex Faaborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I'm a little wary of associating microformats too closely with Smart  Tags 
or IntelliSense given the massive public outcry Microsoft  received when 
they considered including the feature in IE6.  There  are obviously some 
very important distinctions between the two  systems, (microformats are 
open and extensible, and web site creators  place microformats in their 
pages instead of the browser injecting  them).  But these distinctions may 
be subtle enough to cause some  initial confusion if the user facing name 
is similar.


While reflecting on this over lunch I came to similar conclusions.

Perhaps we should use terms that we already have and know, and call the 
pages Semantically Rich, or something.


--
Paul Wilkins 


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

I'm a little wary of associating microformats too closely with Smart  
Tags or IntelliSense given the massive public outcry Microsoft  
received when they considered including the feature in IE6.  There  
are obviously some very important distinctions between the two  
systems, (microformats are open and extensible, and web site creators  
place microformats in their pages instead of the browser injecting  
them).  But these distinctions may be subtle enough to cause some  
initial confusion if the user facing name is similar.


-Alex



On Jun 27, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Thom Shannon wrote:


Yeah, exactly that kind of thing.

A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP,  
maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some of the UI  
stuff it did was really good.


IntelliTags
Infolets
Infobits
Open Smart Tags? ;-)


Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:

Hello Thom,

On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[...]

Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an  
end user

facing site showing what you can do with these things.


We could call it: "Intelligent Web Pages" or "Smart Web Pages"

Web pages that are "intelligent enough" or "smart enough" to "do  
stuff" :-)




___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Paul Wilkins]

From: "Alex Faaborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I definitely agree that the microformats community should consider a  user 
facing name.  Similar to how RSS is exposed in Firefox to the  user as "Web 
Feeds" and microsummaries are exposed to the user as  "Live Bookmarks," 
microformat detection in Firefox 3 is going to need  a name.  What does 
everyone think it should be called?


To take an idea from Charles, I think that IntelliSmart is a good 
description of them.


IntelliSmart Web Pages.

--
Paul Wilkins 


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Thom Shannon]

Yeah, exactly that kind of thing.

A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP, maybe we 
could look to the way that was marketed and some of the UI stuff it did 
was really good.


IntelliTags
Infolets
Infobits
Open Smart Tags? ;-)


Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:

Hello Thom,

On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[...]


Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user
facing site showing what you can do with these things.


We could call it: "Intelligent Web Pages" or "Smart Web Pages"

Web pages that are "intelligent enough" or "smart enough" to "do 
stuff" :-)




___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Alex Faaborg]

I definitely agree that the microformats community should consider a  
user facing name.  Similar to how RSS is exposed in Firefox to the  
user as "Web Feeds" and microsummaries are exposed to the user as  
"Live Bookmarks," microformat detection in Firefox 3 is going to need  
a name.  What does everyone think it should be called?


-Alex


On Jun 27, 2007, at 4:04 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:


Hello Thom,

On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[...]

Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end  
user

facing site showing what you can do with these things.


We could call it: "Intelligent Web Pages" or "Smart Web Pages"

Web pages that are "intelligent enough" or "smart enough" to "do  
stuff" :-)



--
   Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. 


 All the Vlogging News on One Page
http://vlograzor.com/
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

[Charles Iliya Krempeaux]

Hello Thom,

On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[...]


Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user
facing site showing what you can do with these things.


We could call it: "Intelligent Web Pages" or "Smart Web Pages"

Web pages that are "intelligent enough" or "smart enough" to "do stuff" :-)


--
   Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. 


 All the Vlogging News on One Page
http://vlograzor.com/
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss