Re: News From HiFn
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:03:02 -0400, Dan Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I had respect for Theo before the American comment. It was unnecessary, out of line, and damaging to the OBSD effort as a whole. You couldn't make your point without getting ugly, eh? Oh shutup. You're of the mentailty that you should never have to be offended. Too bad, it happens. What I have respect for is a person who speaks their mind, makes their position clear, and has no regard for politics. Oh noes! Theo made an anti-American comment! Well we need all the anti- bull comments we can get about stupid policy, stupid wars, stupid everything! Infact, Theo has got that original American spirit--freedom from tyrrany, freedom of speech, freedom do do as he pleases. That's what being American is all about, freedom. Wars, wartime policy, domestic surveilance, asinine export laws, (crypto is a munition? pass the spoon!) skewing the system of checks and balances, loading the courts with fundamentalists, etc, is as un- American as you can get. Travers
Re: News From HiFn
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travers Buda Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:46 AM To: OpenBSD Misc Subject: Re: News From HiFn On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:03:02 -0400, Dan Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I had respect for Theo before the American comment. It was unnecessary, out of line, and damaging to the OBSD effort as a whole. You couldn't make your point without getting ugly, eh? Oh shutup. You're of the mentailty that you should never have to be offended. Too bad, it happens. What I have respect for is a person who speaks their mind, makes their position clear, and has no regard for politics. Oh noes! Theo made an anti-American comment! Well we need all the anti- bull comments we can get about stupid policy, stupid wars, stupid everything! Infact, Theo has got that original American spirit--freedom from tyrrany, freedom of speech, freedom do do as he pleases. That's what being American is all about, freedom. Wars, wartime policy, domestic surveilance, asinine export laws, (crypto is a munition? pass the spoon!) skewing the system of checks and balances, loading the courts with fundamentalists, etc, is as un- American as you can get. Travers Don't forget about flag burning! Burning the flag IS the symbol of the freedom that the flag ostensibly represents. People fought and died in political wars to be ABLE to burn a flag if they goddamn want to (assuming it's theirs, of course ;). Like this is the MOST important thing these spineless-never-been-in-the-military-anyway-chickenhawk f**ks should be arguing about? *cough*Katrina*cough*Campaign Finance Reform*cough*impeach the criminals*cough*. Sheesh. And don't forget 'Support Our Troops!'. Like we don't, if we don't want them to die meaninglessly? Tap...Tap...Hell? (more 'look at the shiny object!' - not at the truth, Rovian political double-speak hogwash). These douchebags would be just plain embarrassing - if they weren't so waron-terra-fying. 'Better the pride that resides, in a citizen of the World, then the pride that divides, when a colorful rag is unfurled' --Rush (the Band, not the rabid limpdick druggie) -C
Re: News From HiFn
On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 09:45:59AM -0500, Travers Buda wrote: Oh noes! Theo made an anti-American comment! Well we need all the anti- bull comments we can get about stupid policy, stupid wars, stupid everything! Infact, Theo has got that original American spirit--freedom from tyrrany, freedom of speech, freedom do do as he pleases. That's what being American is all about, freedom. Freedom has different interpretations. A 1944 Soviet Anthem sung in english does tell that the people are free. I think every system will tell its people that the people are free, what another system thinks of this may not be free to them. I do agree with you the freedoms you mentioned are part of the package of what I call ultimately freedom. There is a few more I'd add but this isn't about me. It's about America and it's past since World War 2. Is America against global tyranny that Hitlers Germany strived for, or did they beat them down just to take their place? And history books for us fools do tell us that Hitlers Tyranny did lose the war right? Right? Unamerican or anti-american then can be interpreted as being anti-tyranny, anti-globalpolice, anti-ultracapitalism, anti-globalterror, anti-military. So I think criticism such as this it can be forgiven if you're a decent human being and american. Wars, wartime policy, domestic surveilance, asinine export laws, (crypto is a munition? pass the spoon!) skewing the system of checks and balances, loading the courts with fundamentalists, etc, is as un- American as you can get. If I live to be 60, it'll be interesting how the world shaped itself since now. regards, -peter -- Here my ticker tape .signature My name is Peter Philipp lynx -dump http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pufferfisholdid=20768394; | sed -n 131,136p So long and thanks for all the fish!!!
Re: News From HiFn
On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 09:45:59AM -0500, Travers Buda wrote: Oh noes! Theo made an anti-American comment! Well we need all the anti- [ yadda yadda ] (I tried to shut up and not continue this thread but you've sucked me in...) You freaking boneheads Read what the hell he said. He said american companies are generally hiding behind non disclosure for everything, while compaies from outside (like taiwan) give developers information. That's just a statement of fact. It's not anti-american. we're talking about companies, not the government or the american people. It's not anti-capitalist. Fer crissake we're talking about TAIWAN - taiwan's attitude toward corporations and what they are allowed to do makes the united states look like a government controlled socialist business enclave. -Bob
Re: News From HiFn
On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 09:45:19AM -0600, Bob Beck wrote: On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 09:45:59AM -0500, Travers Buda wrote: Oh noes! Theo made an anti-American comment! Well we need all the anti- [ yadda yadda ] (I tried to shut up and not continue this thread but you've sucked me in...) Well I tried to shut up too, but Travers sucked me in, who was sucked in by another guy who was uhm.. 3 weeks late after the thread sorta died? You freaking boneheads :) Just being human y'know!? Read what the hell he said. He said american companies are generally hiding behind non disclosure for everything, while compaies from outside (like taiwan) give developers information. That's just a statement of fact. It's not anti-american. we're talking about companies, not the government or the american people. It's not anti-capitalist. Fer crissake we're talking about TAIWAN - taiwan's attitude toward corporations and what they are allowed to do makes the united states look like a government controlled socialist business enclave. Well there was that statement about cruise missiles too, after the US cut funding to POSSE. Uhm. I thought it was right on. Ian Darwin also had a nice commentary about that. Possibly one can find it through Google (an american company). regards, -peter -- Here my ticker tape .signature My name is Peter Philipp lynx -dump http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pufferfisholdid=20768394; | sed -n 131,136p So long and thanks for all the fish!!!
Re: News From HiFn
Peter Philipp wrote: I do agree with you the freedoms you mentioned are part of the package of what I call ultimately freedom. Wonder what is contained in that package. But wait,... let us read There is a few more I'd add but this isn't about me. Of course not. It's about America and it's past since World War 2. Not much happened in America (or outside, for that matter) before WW2, I guess. Is America against global tyranny that Hitlers Germany strived for, or did they beat them down just to take their place? Most of the world, at times, are not that sure, at times. Wonder why. And history books for us fools do tell us that Hitlers Tyranny did lose the war right? Right? Unamerican or anti-american then can be interpreted as being anti-tyranny, anti-globalpolice, anti-ultracapitalism, anti-globalterror, anti-military. So I think criticism such as this it can be forgiven if you're a decent human being and american. That pretty much sums up your definition of ultimate freedom, does it not? /Sigfred
Re: News From HiFn
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I think criticism such as this it can be forgiven if you're a decent human being and american. That pretty much sums up your definition of ultimate freedom, does it not? Blah blah blah. Let's please drop this sociopolitical debate and get onto some BSD? DS
Re: News From HiFn
Peter Philipp wrote: On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 09:45:19AM -0600, Bob Beck wrote: (I tried to shut up and not continue this thread but you've sucked me in...) Well I tried to shut up too, but Travers sucked me in, who was sucked in by another guy who was uhm.. 3 weeks late after the thread sorta died? This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends. Some people started ranting it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue ranting it forever just because... Breeno
Re: News From HiFn
On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 07:22:26PM +0200, Sigfred H?versen wrote: So I think criticism such as this it can be forgiven if you're a decent human being and american. That pretty much sums up your definition of ultimate freedom, does it not? /Sigfred No it does not. -p -- Here my ticker tape .signature My name is Peter Philipp lynx -dump http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pufferfisholdid=20768394; | sed -n 131,136p So long and thanks for all the fish!!!
Re: News From HiFn
Peter Philipp wrote: On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 07:22:26PM +0200, Sigfred H?versen wrote: So I think criticism such as this it can be forgiven if you're a decent human being and american. That pretty much sums up your definition of ultimate freedom, does it not? /Sigfred No it does not. So disagreements (criticisms, whatever) of US policies can be forgiven if a) you are decent, and b) a human beeing and c) an American. I am sure I missed something in what you mean with ultimate freedom. /Sigfred
Re: News From HiFn
Spruell, Darren-Perot wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I think criticism such as this it can be forgiven if you're a decent human being and american. That pretty much sums up your definition of ultimate freedom, does it not? Blah blah blah. Let's please drop this sociopolitical debate and get onto some BSD? Sure we can. What do you want to talk about? /Sigfred
Re: News From HiFn
Blah blah blah. Let's please drop this sociopolitical debate and get onto some BSD? Sure we can. What do you want to talk about? VoIP would be nice and selfish as well, but oh well...
Re: News From HiFn
On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 08:11:37PM +0200, Sigfred H?versen wrote: No it does not. So disagreements (criticisms, whatever) of US policies can be forgiven if a) you are decent, and b) a human beeing and c) an American. I am sure I missed something in what you mean with ultimate freedom. /Sigfred Did you mean to send this in private mail? I'm going to unsubscribe from this list for a couple of days via the nice interface that lets you do this for a couple of days, so that this can die. Have a nice week. -peter -- Here my ticker tape .signature My name is Peter Philipp lynx -dump http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pufferfisholdid=20768394; | sed -n 131,136p So long and thanks for all the fish!!!
Re: News From HiFn
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lars Hansson Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:19 AM To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: News From HiFn Don't; just drop it and act like a man. No, Theo needs an apology because his feelings are hurt. Holy shit, you sound like my sister and her bitch friends. Good thing you have better things to do in your life than to write long tiresome letters on Theo's attitude. Oh wait... --- Lars Hansson And yet, in his long-winded exasperated way, he's right. No one likes a whiner, especially in Theo's position. I had respect for Theo before the American comment. It was unnecessary, out of line, and damaging to the OBSD effort as a whole. You couldn't make your point without getting ugly, eh? Showing pride and emotion for your cause is honorable- showing hatred reveals your smallness. How embarrassing. Dan Farrell Applied Innovations [EMAIL PROTECTED] 'the first man to raise his fists is the first man to run out of ideas'
Re: News From HiFn
And yet, in his long-winded exasperated way, he's right. No one likes a whiner, especially in Theo's position. nobody may like the whiner, but that makes the whiner no less correct. I had respect for Theo before the American comment. It was unnecessary, out of line, and damaging to the OBSD effort as a whole. You couldn't make your point without getting ugly, eh? i am myself american and feel that theo's comment about praising the company is spot on. corporations should not be praised for responding to their customers' complaints, the complainers, a.k.a. the whiners, should be the ones praised, for without them the corporation would have shot itself in the foot. this whole attitude is propagated by merit of the peonified US consumer who only wishes they could be acknowledged, much less praised, by large corporations. the only thing that is large scale and grassroots here in the US is grass that is fertilized by large corporations. go figure. get long natural gas because this isn't going to end anytime soon ;). Showing pride and emotion for your cause is honorable- showing hatred reveals your smallness. How embarrassing. or your short-sightedness and patriotism. Dan Farrell Applied Innovations [EMAIL PROTECTED] 'the first man to raise his fists is the first man to run out of ideas'
Re: News From HiFn
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jacob Yocom-Piatt Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 11:38 AM To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: News From HiFn And yet, in his long-winded exasperated way, he's right. No one likes a whiner, especially in Theo's position. nobody may like the whiner, but that makes the whiner no less correct. I had respect for Theo before the American comment. It was unnecessary, out of line, and damaging to the OBSD effort as a whole. You couldn't make your point without getting ugly, eh? i am myself american and feel that theo's comment about praising the company is spot on. corporations should not be praised for responding to their customers' complaints, the complainers, a.k.a. the whiners, should be the ones praised, for without them the corporation would have shot itself in the foot. this whole attitude is propagated by merit of the peonified US consumer who only wishes they could be acknowledged, much less praised, by large corporations. the only thing that is large scale and grassroots here in the US is grass that is fertilized by large corporations. go figure. get long natural gas because this isn't going to end anytime soon ;). Showing pride and emotion for your cause is honorable- showing hatred reveals your smallness. How embarrassing. or your short-sightedness and patriotism. Dan Farrell Applied Innovations [EMAIL PROTECTED] 'the first man to raise his fists is the first man to run out of ideas' I didn't have a problem with his actual argument per se... it was the delivery. Insulting rhetoric has no place in a civilized debate. I actually agreed with him, until he thought that all of this is just 'American.' It's actually 'capitalistic', and America isn't the only country in on that game. In short, a more mature attitude in presenting arguments would serve to promote OpenBSD... it's not a punk solution, and deserves more than a punk response to problem situations. No wonder OpenBSD has such difficulty in raising money or respect in the industry it was meant to operate in. And that's a sad statement-- it's a damn good product.
Re: News From HiFn
On 7/11/06, Dan Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Insulting rhetoric has no place in a civilized debate. I actually agreed with him, until he thought that all of this is just 'American.' It's actually 'capitalistic', and America isn't the only country in on that game. I'm not sure capitalistic is any more accurate or any less insulting than American. What we're talking about here is consumers believing that the natural state of affairs is for companies to devalue their customers. This notion is, among other things, fundamentally anticapitalistic--it undercuts the basis of capitalistic competition. I think that the phenomenon that Theo was railing against is a certain kind of authoritarianism--the idea that if you have an organization that is big and official then that organization's big and official wishes should be respected, and that any attempt on the part of customers to change the group behavior of the organization should be based on appeasement and taking whatever you can get, however small. I think that the idea that it makes sense for individuals to be victimized by groups (and just real nice when they're not)--or that it makes sense for one group to be victimized by another--is very authoritarian. I am an American, and I have observed that this is precisely how almost all law-abiding Americans relate to police officers (law abiding citizens are the customers, but we fear cops as if we were criminals, we are taught from a young age that the proper way to respond to police presence is to allow ourselves to be victimized, and we rarely try to change this state of affairs). My travel experience outside the U.S. is very limited, but I presume that America is not alone in being infected with this kind of authoritarian stupidity. Theo: Assuming that you were using American as a descriptive term, rather than as an insult, would you mind clarifying what it was that you meant to convey? Perhaps the effective vilification of America (and now a counter-vilification of capitalism) is due to a a misunderstanding. -Eliah
Re: News From HiFn
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:03:02 -0400, Dan Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I had respect for Theo before the American comment. It was unnecessary, out of line, and damaging to the OBSD effort as a whole. You couldn't make your point without getting ugly, eh? Showing pride and emotion for your cause is honorable- showing hatred reveals your smallness. How embarrassing. I'm American and I was not offended. Yes, generalizing is usually a bad thing, but in this case, unfortunately, too many Americans are guilty. I did not feel he was showing hatred of any sort. He was just pointing out an unfortunate tendency of too many Americans. I'm sure Theo has many friends who are American. BTW, I don't think Theo wants, needs or gives a rat's ass about your respect, but I could be wrong... -- Eric Furman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: News From HiFn
On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:23:51 -0400, Peter Blair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ya, that'd be nice if I ever made it to a prompt to enter 'anonymous', but the connection fails well before that point. $ ping ftp.hifn.com PING ftp.hifn.com (208.10.194.169): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 208.10.194.169: icmp_seq=0 ttl=117 time=100.851 ms 64 bytes from 208.10.194.169: icmp_seq=1 ttl=117 time=100.228 ms ^C --- ftp.hifn.com ping statistics --- 2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 100.228/100.540/100.851/0.311 ms $ ftp ftp.hifn.com ftp: connect: Connection refused ftp Nice :) I just checked this morning and the server is up again. jcr -- Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools http://www.DesignTools.org
Re: News From HiFn
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:48:28 +0200, Joachim Schipper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:16:45PM -0400, Nick Guenther wrote: On 7/4/06, Peter Blair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/29/06, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. I was told HiFn is still working on their new ftp site, so I'm not sure how complete it is at the moment but at least we know there's a start and they are willing to continue working on it. Has anyone tried recently to connect to ftp.hifn.com ? I haven't been able to connect from multiple locations. Doesn't work here either. Curious... Looks like they're still working on it, as announced; it does not accept connections. Give them some time; this is not entirely unexpected behaviour from a server they just set up. Joachim Joachim has a good point. What error messages are you guys getting? -I'm thinking there would be a limit on the number of anon users the server will accept at any one time. Not only will all the various search engines try to index the site but also I would not be surprised if many individuals tried to make a local mirror of the site contents now that they are open. -The traffic influx might make a mess out of their IDS. jcr -- Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools http://www.DesignTools.org
Re: News From HiFn
Ya, that'd be nice if I ever made it to a prompt to enter 'anonymous', but the connection fails well before that point. $ ping ftp.hifn.com PING ftp.hifn.com (208.10.194.169): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 208.10.194.169: icmp_seq=0 ttl=117 time=100.851 ms 64 bytes from 208.10.194.169: icmp_seq=1 ttl=117 time=100.228 ms ^C --- ftp.hifn.com ping statistics --- 2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 100.228/100.540/100.851/0.311 ms $ ftp ftp.hifn.com ftp: connect: Connection refused ftp Nice :) On 7/5/06, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:48:28 +0200, Joachim Schipper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:16:45PM -0400, Nick Guenther wrote: On 7/4/06, Peter Blair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/29/06, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. I was told HiFn is still working on their new ftp site, so I'm not sure how complete it is at the moment but at least we know there's a start and they are willing to continue working on it. Has anyone tried recently to connect to ftp.hifn.com ? I haven't been able to connect from multiple locations. Doesn't work here either. Curious... Looks like they're still working on it, as announced; it does not accept connections. Give them some time; this is not entirely unexpected behaviour from a server they just set up. Joachim Joachim has a good point. What error messages are you guys getting? -I'm thinking there would be a limit on the number of anon users the server will accept at any one time. Not only will all the various search engines try to index the site but also I would not be surprised if many individuals tried to make a local mirror of the site contents now that they are open. -The traffic influx might make a mess out of their IDS. jcr -- Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools http://www.DesignTools.org
Re: News From HiFn
Has anyone tried recently to connect to ftp.hifn.com ? I haven't been able to connect from multiple locations. -Pete On 6/29/06, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy misc@ Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and the VP of marketing (Tom Moore). I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. I was told HiFn is still working on their new ftp site, so I'm not sure how complete it is at the moment but at least we know there's a start and they are willing to continue working on it. Please check out the readme on the FTP. Basically it says if you wish to automatically get the HiFn updates/errata/notifications, you should probably sign up for the HiFn extranet thing. You don't have to but you can if you want. Kind Regards, JCR -- Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools http://www.DesignTools.org
Re: News From HiFn
On Tue, Jul 04, 2006 at 12:16:45PM -0400, Nick Guenther wrote: On 7/4/06, Peter Blair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/29/06, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. I was told HiFn is still working on their new ftp site, so I'm not sure how complete it is at the moment but at least we know there's a start and they are willing to continue working on it. Has anyone tried recently to connect to ftp.hifn.com ? I haven't been able to connect from multiple locations. Doesn't work here either. Curious... Looks like they're still working on it, as announced; it does not accept connections. Give them some time; this is not entirely unexpected behaviour from a server they just set up. Joachim
Re: News From HiFn
On Jun 30, 2006, at 7:11 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: Why should we bleed our little hearts over a company who acted like assholes towards us for years, and only changed their policy due to public pressure? Because behavior modification requires rewarding in some fashion desired behavior? Because the stick doesn't work without the carrot? Because all the world longs to see a kinder, gentler Theo? :-) --- Jack J. Woehr Director of Development Absolute Performance, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-443-7000 ext. 527
Re: News From HiFn
On Fri, 2006-06-30 at 20:09:50 -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote... 95% of the planet does nothing to complain when there is a serious problem with a company, and then when 5% of the people complain enough to force them fix it, you wish to congratulate the ... company? How American. Please stop making snide comments and generalizing, it makes you look like an idiot.
Re: News From HiFn
On Fri, Jun 30, 2006 at 02:27:53PM -0400, Nick Guenther wrote: On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: J.C. Roberts wrote: This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to update the Hifn status page. Done, but I've left their ranking as unfriendly on the front page because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady. If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse stories that would be helpful though. I see it is now 'somewhat friendly'. Since I can't resist adding to this largely useless debate... Theo is, of course, right that a company that does the right thing for its consumers isn't doing anything special, and yes, Hifn has been trouble enough. On the other hand, they have changed and done pretty much what everyone here wanted - granted, they could have done so sooner, but they did. In fact, they might be rated positively `Friendly' right now. Of course, this does not change the fact that they have been trouble, but that's not what the VendorWatch status means. After all, VendorWatch isn't in the business of tracking whether or not companies use child labour and are wont to respond to labour unions with gross violence, either. However, it is a good thing to preserve this piece of history on the Hifn page; but that does not mean that the status cannot be considered `Friendly' right now. Plus, rewarding people for good behaviour tends to encourage such behaviour. This is even more true in the case of corporations, which tend to be even more focused on rewards than people. Joachim
Re: News From HiFn
Breen Ouellette wrote: Theo de Raadt wrote: I will ask this honestly: Why should we bleed our little hearts over a company who acted like assholes towards us for years, and only changed their policy due to public pressure? Don't; just drop it and act like a man. No, Theo needs an apology because his feelings are hurt. Holy shit, you sound like my sister and her bitch friends. To make ourselves feel better? I think it is pointless. They still did not apologize. The comments made by Theo over the years have been very childish and ignorant. I can't believe anybody would give him anything. He's just like the prissy little baby you see who crys, bitches, and moans until her mommy gives her her way. Then, she still acts like she deserves more. That's not an opinion, that's fact. Just read any of his posts where issues get a little heated. First, you have to look at everyone's motive. OBSD wants everything free, secure, and distributable, thats policy. Companies want closed source and marketability, that's their policy. OBSD is not in business, companies are, and for money as matter of fact. Companies see their software/firmware as an asset. Exposing such assets could jeopardize their market position and also expose their hardware assets. This point is arguable, but that's what these companies believe. So think about it this way, OBSD prides itself on being secure, that's how it leads in its market. What would make the OS loose it's market so to speak? Well, including blobs that make the OS vulnerable for one. That is something Theo is not going to budge on. That's his policy. So when Theo starts crying when companies don't open source, that is very hypocritical behavior. Picture this; you are teaching a dog to do a trick, roll-over. You tell him to roll-over, but he just lays down, so you kick him and tell him that he's unfriendly and don't give him a treat. What do you think he is going to do the next time you tell him to roll-over? Jesus christ, he is half way there, encourage him, give him a motive to follow through. Additionally, how do you think the rest of the pack watching you kick their own are going to act towards you? I have to say, people definitely get back what they give. For instance, I don't think I have ever heard a public outcry from the open source community stating we need money other than the recent display from the OBSD community. I have never heard the Jolitzs', Joy, Linus, etc. ever say, we gave code away, but nobody paid us. Nobody else has money problems except Theo, maybe it's the attitude? I agree with Theo, and yet I agree with others who subscribe to the 'reward for good behaviour' line of thinking. I think the issue is one of perspective, and the scale for rating companies over at vendorwatch.org is too simple. Obviously for the developers it is frustrating that they have to push and push and push for years with no results, only to blow up and cause a community outcry which finally gets the vendor to open up. Why push and push? Why not support well the vendors that do share OSS philosophies? Proudly support them and make it well known that OBSD runs rock solid with these supported hardwares. It's not like OBSD supports a majority of hardware anyway. I am perfectly happy being selective in my hardware purchases in order to obtain supported hardware. If Intel is not cooperating, and AMD is (according to vendor watch they are friendly), then loudly support AMD. AMD will appreciate it and may see it as an edge against their competitors. This is motive for them to loudly support you back, in the media, fiscally, etc. One thing about human behavior and companies in general is everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon. Once you dig in and build some serious alliances, others will take notice and want to join in. One must lead by example. In the meantime, Theo has been painted (again) as abrasive, whiny, thick-headed, and who knows what else by the larger Open Source community, thanks in large part to outlets like Slashdot which present a snapshot which completely fails to report the scope of this ongoing problem. And now that the docs are open again, there will be pressure on the OpenBSD team to fix the errors in the Hifn code - for a product which has been a source of frustration for quite a while. When one thinks about it one should be able to sympathize with the developers a little more than the companies which jerk them around. People only get what they have given. For the users who jumped on the bandwagon less than four weeks ago it seems like a great victory. For the developers it's not so easy to set aside the hassle they've gone through and pound on that code. A primary motivation for the developers is, after all, to have fun working on code. And still, if companies that do respond favourably after a public outcry continue to get badmouthed after the fact, there won't be much incentive for
Re: News From HiFn
On 01/07/06, Clint Pachl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to say, people definitely get back what they give. For instance, I don't think I have ever heard a public outcry from the open source community stating we need money other than the recent display from the OBSD community. I have never heard the Jolitzs', Joy, Linus, etc. ever say, we gave code away, but nobody paid us. Nobody else has money problems except Theo, maybe it's the attitude? i do not know about Jolitzs, but in case of Linus, you, being so very discrete, forgot to mention the license differences here as these are very important from the point of view of the legal entities using the code. please be discrete and informative completely if you are. sorry for the noise and please do not take it personal.
Re: News From HiFn
On Sat, Jul 01, 2006 at 04:00:03AM -0700, Clint Pachl wrote: Don't; just drop it and act like a man. No, Theo needs an apology because his feelings are hurt. Holy shit, you sound like my sister and her bitch friends. What exactly do men act like? It seems you don't know, you only report what your sister acts like. The comments made by Theo over the years have been very childish and ignorant. I can't believe anybody would give him anything. He's just like the prissy little baby you see who crys, bitches, and moans until her mommy gives her her way. Then, she still acts like she deserves more. That's not an opinion, that's fact. Just read any of his posts where issues get a little heated. I heard he bitches because he's right most of the time and people realise this. So why are you bitching? Happy Canada day; Bon fete Canada! -peter Here my ticker tape .signature My name is Peter Philipp lynx -dump http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pufferfisholdid=20768394; | sed -n 131,136p So long and thanks for all the fish!!!
Re: News From HiFn
Don't; just drop it and act like a man. No, Theo needs an apology because his feelings are hurt. Holy shit, you sound like my sister and her bitch friends. Good thing you have better things to do in your life than to write long tiresome letters on Theo's attitude. Oh wait... --- Lars Hansson
Re: News From HiFn
Clint Pachl wrote: So when Theo starts crying when companies don't open source, that is very hypocritical behavior. This statement right here proves you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and makes the rest of your long-winded rant irrelevant. Theo did not, and never has, asked for source. Now why don't you just go back to whatever hole you lurk from and leave the rest of us alone?
Re: News From HiFn
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:45:55 -0700 J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy misc@ Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and the VP of marketing (Tom Moore). I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: snip Kind Regards, JCR JCR, how did you procure this ftp site for us? Are you just that good friends with the people ot hifn, or perhaps you employed some suggestion we didn't think of? We complained and made a public fiasco, did that have much of anything to do with getting the free docs? Or was it all you? Travers
Re: News From HiFn
Peter Philipp wrote: [snip] I heard he bitches because he's right most of the time and people realise this. Actually 90+ percentile. (Particularly when he ought to be only 50+ percentile)
Re: News From HiFn
Here's what I think is cool: despite the tendency public forums discussing the subject have of saying OpenBSD people generally (or Theo, or someone else specifically) are jerks, those same jerks value freedom enough to write the best-engineered general purpose operating system available, the world's most widely used ssh implementation, a high-performance, full-featured BGP daemon, etc., and give them away without restriction to those who only spout epithets back. Whatever your opinions of Hifn and their ilk, thanks to all you jerks out there.
Re: News From HiFn
On Sat, Jul 01, 2006 at 02:10:05PM -0500, Tony Abernethy wrote: Peter Philipp wrote: [snip] I heard he bitches because he's right most of the time and people realise this. Actually 90+ percentile. (Particularly when he ought to be only 50+ percentile) With close to 20,000 commits in nearly 4000 days and averaging nearly 5 commits per day, a 90+ percentile in bitching is allowed. Statistics gathered from the following fine data gathering place: URL: http://www.oxide.org/cvs/deraadt.html (someone oughta make OpenBSD committer trading cards, would be fun for the younglings I bet ;) -peter -- Here my ticker tape .signature My name is Peter Philipp lynx -dump http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pufferfisholdid=20768394; | sed -n 131,136p So long and thanks for all the fish!!!
Re: News From HiFn
Peter Philipp wrote: On Sat, Jul 01, 2006 at 02:10:05PM -0500, Tony Abernethy wrote: Peter Philipp wrote: [snip] I heard he bitches because he's right most of the time and people realise this. Actually 90+ percentile. (Particularly when he ought to be only 50+ percentile) With close to 20,000 commits in nearly 4000 days and averaging nearly 5 commits per day, a 90+ percentile in bitching is allowed. Statistics gathered from the following fine data gathering place: URL: http://www.oxide.org/cvs/deraadt.html (someone oughta make OpenBSD committer trading cards, would be fun for the younglings I bet ;) -peter -- Here my ticker tape .signature My name is Peter Philipp lynx -dump http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pufferfisholdid=20768394; | sed -n 131,136p So long and thanks for all the fish!!! Clarification: That's 90+ percentile on being right. (Actually, he seems rather reticent, at least until he knows)
Re: News From HiFn
On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 14:52:18 +, Travers Buda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:45:55 -0700 J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy misc@ Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and the VP of marketing (Tom Moore). I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: snip Kind Regards, JCR JCR, how did you procure this ftp site for us? Are you just that good friends with the people ot hifn, or perhaps you employed some suggestion we didn't think of? We complained and made a public fiasco, did that have much of anything to do with getting the free docs? Or was it all you? Travers Hi Travers, Wow, I think this is the first time I've ever been accused of brevity and leaving out details. Normally, I'm a yammering chatterbox spouting more details than you ever wanted to know. I've recently been trying to take brevity lessons but I just keep failing to get it. (; Sometimes I forget there are always new people joining OpenBSD and the misc@ list, so they haven't been around for years and years. -And sometimes new people would rather ask a question than go searching through the misc@ archives to do their own homework... It was not all me. I'm just one guy and I didn't do much. There are *many* people involved with the OpenBSD project or within HiFn that helped to make this happen. Around 2001 there was a policy change at HiFn which restricted access to the required documentation. Originally Theo had tried being nice with them in requesting open access to the docs but nothing ever happened. Then there was some bad publicity due their reluctance to change their policy. By 2004 it had become a real problem for HiFn customers using OpenBSD, particularly those who use the Soekris design, and there was no way to fix bugs without the docs. Since I live in the Los Gatos area where the HiFn headquarters is located, in 2004 I took the time to actually go meet with Russ Dietz (VP Eng/ CTO) and Chris Kebner (CEO) regarding the documentation issue. They are great guys. Though they agreed in principal to opening the docs, due to internal company politics (and probably reasons I don't know), nothing was ever done. If a company wants to have a closed documentation policy, it's really their choice to make. After all, it's their business. On the other hand, OpenBSD is committed to quality and correctness, so when a vendor leaves developers without the documentation necessary to do things right, the quality suffers and often support for such products is either stopped or removed. In the case of HiFn, though the docs were not released, the existing support for their products was not removed. Some argue it was a better compromise than removing support completely and telling people to throw away the hardware they had purchased. Earlier this month a low level HiFn employee showed up on this list looking to prove his bravado by starting a fight, trying to make the developers look bad, spreading fud, telling lies, insulting people and generally trying to cause problems... -Those of you on the list which keep blasting Theo for expecting an apology should probably try to look at it from his point of view. You don't have to agree with him, but you should be able to see and admit that there is some validity to his reasoning. By the time I had even noticed the row, Theo had already set the record straight, the fiasco had been being picked up by various news sites and all the flame wars had already commenced. If you were an executive with fiduciary responsibility for the success of a company, you would certainly want to know about a rouge employee going out in public under your company name to pick fights, cause ill will and further stress an already strained situation. I once again contacted the people I previously met at HiFn to let them know how their loose cannon was out causing a marketing nightmare. Though polite, I was not particularly kind about it and I included links to all the various nonsense going on the `net regarding their company. Being that the fiasco had become a marketing nightmare, when contacting the others I also included Tom Moore, their VP of Marketing, who I did not know. Tom not only took care of the problem but he also got the policy changed, had the FTP site built and when complete, he picked up the phone and called me to let me know. I just relayed the information of their decision here to the list. I'm obviously not a super genius, a godly systems coder or some highly influential man about town. I'm just a regular OpenBSD user who put a bit of effort into advocacy and getting things changed. As you can see from above (and the misc@
Re: News From HiFn
Hi! On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 03:45:55PM -0700, J.C. Roberts wrote: [...] I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com Kudoes to you for your initiative and to HiFn for their decision. Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: News From HiFn
J.C. Roberts wrote: This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. This is good news. Thanks for your contribution! To all the nay-sayers out there: this proves that sometimes companies do 'get' their customers' wishes. Consumer action does work - as long as the consumer actually gets involved. While you might not always be able to get the attention of companies through consumer action, apathetically accepting the status quo guarantees that you never will. Thanks to everyone who got involved - you proved that somewhat open is no more acceptable than not at all open by bringing Hifn on board. Breeno PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to update the Hifn status page.
Re: News From HiFn
On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 03:45:55PM -0700, J.C. Roberts wrote: I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: hi5. nicely done. Please check out the readme on the FTP. Basically it says if you wish to automatically get the HiFn updates/errata/notifications, you should probably sign up for the HiFn extranet thing. You don't have to but you can if you want. i am hoping this works out to be really exactly what was desired. in reading the software-api-tkip-applicationnote.pdf, it has a clause that says: === Hifn Confidential If you have signed a Hifn Confidential Disclosure Agreement that includes this document as part of its subject matter, please use this document in accordance with the terms of the agreement. If not, please destroy this document. === would it seem that this may just be the pdf contents being still out of synch with the spirit of open/anonymous documentation availability, or... maybe i should destroy it for now... ? -- jared [ openbsd 3.9-current GENERIC ( may 1 ) // i386 ]
Re: News From HiFn
On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: J.C. Roberts wrote: This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. This is good news. Thanks for your contribution! To all the nay-sayers out there: this proves that sometimes companies do 'get' their customers' wishes. Consumer action does work - as long as the consumer actually gets involved. While you might not always be able to get the attention of companies through consumer action, apathetically accepting the status quo guarantees that you never will. Thanks to everyone who got involved - you proved that somewhat open is no more acceptable than not at all open by bringing Hifn on board. Breeno PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to update the Hifn status page. Done, but I've left their ranking as unfriendly on the front page because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady. If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse stories that would be helpful though. -Nick
Re: News From HiFn
Nick Guenther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Done, but I've left their ranking as unfriendly on the front page because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady. No worries, I just got word that they'll send a prostitute over to your house to fix that right up.
Re: News From HiFn
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:27:53 -0400, Nick Guenther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: J.C. Roberts wrote: This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. This is good news. Thanks for your contribution! To all the nay-sayers out there: this proves that sometimes companies do 'get' their customers' wishes. Consumer action does work - as long as the consumer actually gets involved. While you might not always be able to get the attention of companies through consumer action, apathetically accepting the status quo guarantees that you never will. Thanks to everyone who got involved - you proved that somewhat open is no more acceptable than not at all open by bringing Hifn on board. Breeno PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to update the Hifn status page. Done, but I've left their ranking as unfriendly on the front page because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady. If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse stories that would be helpful though. -Nick Hi Nick, Sure, with the help of many people, we were able to get a policy change made to open documentation at HiFn. It was not a solo effort, so I should not get all the credit. I just happened to be the person the vendor contacted regarding their changes. I'd like to request that you change the HiFn status to at least Somewhat Friendly on the www.vendorwatch.org site. Yes, I have created an account on the site and may be able to make the change myself, but due to my involvement, I can't be considered unbiased and should not editing the status. I've also submitted stories about the change of policy at HiFn to both slashdot and undeadly, but obviously, I have no control over whether or not they ever get published. I'm sure many may wonder why I would try to help out HiFn but personally, I think it's just a matter of being fair. Just as a bad policy should be condemned, I think a change to a good policy should be celebrated. You may want to note that opinions differ around here and not everyone involved with the project agrees with the way I see it but personally, I'd rather let water under the bridge be past and move on to trying to solve the next problem. Kind Regards, JCR -- Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools http://www.DesignTools.org
Re: News From HiFn
On Fri, Jun 30, 2006 at 02:27:53PM -0400, Nick Guenther wrote: On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to update the Hifn status page. Done, but I've left their ranking as unfriendly on the front page because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady. If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse stories that would be helpful though. It seems to me that if people are going to make a huge fuss about a company's documentation not being open enough or not available or what have you, and then following the fuss, they make their documentation available, they should at a minimum be considered somewhat friendly. Wasn't the whole point of all the back-and-forth about the documentation? Now that we can get the docs, who cares if they don't apologize? Do businesses now have to be careful not to hurt our feelings in order to be considered friendly? Do we want apologies and proof of non-shadiness, or do we want documentation to be made available? This is also not to mention that being pig-headed about the matter is a great way to prevent other companies from complying with requests for documentation - if a business thinks we're going to demand it kiss our collective ass before we give it credit for cooperating, they're simply not going to cooperate. P.S. - I just read J.C.'s reply along these lines, and this is intended to be in the same vein. bc -- Benjamin Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Re: News From HiFn
J.C. Roberts wrote: On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:27:53 -0400, Nick Guenther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/30/06, Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: J.C. Roberts wrote: This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. This is good news. Thanks for your contribution! To all the nay-sayers out there: this proves that sometimes companies do 'get' their customers' wishes. Consumer action does work - as long as the consumer actually gets involved. While you might not always be able to get the attention of companies through consumer action, apathetically accepting the status quo guarantees that you never will. Thanks to everyone who got involved - you proved that somewhat open is no more acceptable than not at all open by bringing Hifn on board. Breeno PS - Someone who participates in editing vendorwatch.org might want to update the Hifn status page. Done, but I've left their ranking as unfriendly on the front page because they've given no apology and they still seem to be shady. If someone could add the links to the slashdot/newsforge/whereverelse stories that would be helpful though. -Nick Hi Nick, Sure, with the help of many people, we were able to get a policy change made to open documentation at HiFn. It was not a solo effort, so I should not get all the credit. I just happened to be the person the vendor contacted regarding their changes. But you sure deserve good credit regardless how it was done. You finally make it possible. Many have express their point of view, I sure did too. To see the end results is a nice turn of event and does show that in the end, may be it took a long time, but HiFn finally got the point and does see the benefit for them as well as us. I'd like to request that you change the HiFn status to at least Somewhat Friendly on the www.vendorwatch.org site. Yes, I have created an account on the site and may be able to make the change myself, but due to my involvement, I can't be considered unbiased and should not editing the status. I've also submitted stories about the change of policy at HiFn to both slashdot and undeadly, but obviously, I have no control over whether or not they ever get published. I'm sure many may wonder why I would try to help out HiFn but personally, I think it's just a matter of being fair. Just as a bad policy should be condemned, I think a change to a good policy should be celebrated. Agreed as well. It's just fair to see them presented as it is. Somewhat Friendly is really where they are now, so would be fair to do that. You may want to note that opinions differ around here and not everyone involved with the project agrees with the way I see it but personally, I'd rather let water under the bridge be past and move on to trying to solve the next problem. I am sure there is many, but we all share the same goal I think. Getting good documentations is the end goal, however we get there. Kind Regards, JCR Thanks for your positive involvements! Daniel.
Re: News From HiFn
Daniel Ouellet wrote: [snipp'ed] Agreed as well. It's just fair to see them presented as it is. Somewhat Friendly is really where they are now, so would be fair to do that. Changed. Reference the hifn article as to why (which was updated by the time I got there) their status was upgraded. Kenny
Re: News From HiFn
It seems to me that if people are going to make a huge fuss about a company's documentation not being open enough or not available or what have you, and then following the fuss, they make their documentation available, they should at a minimum be considered somewhat friendly. I think you are right. If someone commits a crime, and then promises to never do it again, we should forgive them. I will ask this honestly: Why should we bleed our little hearts over a company who acted like assholes towards us for years, and only changed their policy due to public pressure? To make ourselves feel better? I think it is pointless. They still did not apologize.
Re: News From HiFn
On Fri, Jun 30, 2006 at 07:11:50PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: I think you are right. If someone commits a crime, and then promises to never do it again, we should forgive them. I will ask this honestly: Why should we bleed our little hearts over a company who acted like assholes towards us for years, and only changed their policy due to public pressure? To make ourselves feel better? I think it is pointless. They still did not apologize. Ok, so there's no need to fawn over them for doing what they should have done before. I'd be nice to have an apology AND the docs. Given the choice of one or the other, it's better to have the docs. And who knows, maybe there will be real policy shift for now and the future with Hifn. I'm not holding my breath, but stranger things have happened. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ |
Re: News From HiFn
Ok, so there's no need to fawn over them for doing what they should have done before. I'd be nice to have an apology AND the docs. Given the choice of one or the other, it's better to have the docs. And who knows, maybe there will be real policy shift for now and the future with Hifn. I'm not holding my breath, but stranger things have happened. So they gave us docs. Now we need to say they are nice? No way. They have received money from hundreds of you. You are customers. They are a company. Now if you (like them) cannot figure out what that means, that they have a RESPONSIBILITY to their customers, and that they only responded once their CUSTOMERS complained, then I mean, come on -- please don't give us advice on rolling over and playing lame. 95% of the planet does nothing to complain when there is a serious problem with a company, and then when 5% of the people complain enough to force them fix it, you wish to congratulate the ... company? How American.
Re: News From HiFn
Theo de Raadt wrote: I will ask this honestly: Why should we bleed our little hearts over a company who acted like assholes towards us for years, and only changed their policy due to public pressure? To make ourselves feel better? I think it is pointless. They still did not apologize. I agree with Theo, and yet I agree with others who subscribe to the 'reward for good behaviour' line of thinking. I think the issue is one of perspective, and the scale for rating companies over at vendorwatch.org is too simple. Obviously for the developers it is frustrating that they have to push and push and push for years with no results, only to blow up and cause a community outcry which finally gets the vendor to open up. In the meantime, Theo has been painted (again) as abrasive, whiny, thick-headed, and who knows what else by the larger Open Source community, thanks in large part to outlets like Slashdot which present a snapshot which completely fails to report the scope of this ongoing problem. And now that the docs are open again, there will be pressure on the OpenBSD team to fix the errors in the Hifn code - for a product which has been a source of frustration for quite a while. When one thinks about it one should be able to sympathize with the developers a little more than the companies which jerk them around. For the users who jumped on the bandwagon less than four weeks ago it seems like a great victory. For the developers it's not so easy to set aside the hassle they've gone through and pound on that code. A primary motivation for the developers is, after all, to have fun working on code. And still, if companies that do respond favourably after a public outcry continue to get badmouthed after the fact, there won't be much incentive for companies to open up in the future. We do need a way to recognize that something positive came about after putting up with a lengthy negative period. What does 'Somewhat Friendly' mean, anyway? To turn the tables, if OpenBSD was rated on the same system, would it be 'Friendly', 'Somewhat Friendly', or 'Unfriendly'? And what relevance would that have? The developers may not be a bunch of hand holding saps, and could be rated as 'Hostile' on occasion, but that doesn't change the fact that OpenBSD is a kick ass system governed by some very strong goals and philosophies. I think we need a more objective rating system. Here's a five point system which is more useful: 'Supplies Hardware', 'Donates Money', 'Supplies Docs Freely', 'Works Well With Developers', and 'Listens To Customers'. This is not necessarily the rating system we should use, but it seems to me to be a step in the right direction. A major issue is ensuring that this process works with developers which working against them. Theo et al are busy working on OpenBSD and they don't likely want to spend all their time complaining about vendors on vendorwatch.org. However, their participation is necessary to ensure that vendorwatch.org meets its mandate. Hopefully the process can be improved. We turned around Hifn in under four weeks (I expected it to take at least four months!) with a heated mailing list discussion and some poorly organized free press. Think of what we could do if we had a smoothly working process which put everyone on the same page! Breeno
Re: News From HiFn
Theo de Raadt wrote: So they gave us docs. Now we need to say they are nice? No way. They have received money from hundreds of you. You are customers. They are a company. Now if you (like them) cannot figure out what that means, that they have a RESPONSIBILITY to their customers, and that they only responded once their CUSTOMERS complained, then I mean, come on -- please don't give us advice on rolling over and playing lame. 95% of the planet does nothing to complain when there is a serious problem with a company, and then when 5% of the people complain enough to force them fix it, you wish to congratulate the ... company? Theo, do you consider this a gain or a loss? Or is it merely regaining lost ground? As a developer your point of view is different than many of the ordinary users on this list. In what direction do you think this should go? What balance do you think should be struck between holding companies accountable for their past transgressions and rewarding them for moving in the direction we want them to go? And finally, do you really care about getting an apology from Hifn? It seems rather meaningless considering that a legal entity can't feel regret. What do you really want? Looking forward to your thoughts. Breeno
Re: News From HiFn
On Fri, Jun 30, 2006 at 08:09:50PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Ok, so there's no need to fawn over them for doing what they should have done before. I'd be nice to have an apology AND the docs. Given the choice of one or the other, it's better to have the docs. And who knows, maybe there will be real policy shift for now and the future with Hifn. I'm not holding my breath, but stranger things have happened. So they gave us docs. Now we need to say they are nice? Is this meant for me? I didn't say to be nice to them. I sent some kudos (privately) to JCR, but I haven't praised Hifn. No way. They have received money from hundreds of you. You are customers. They are a company. Now if you (like them) cannot figure out what that means, that they have a RESPONSIBILITY to their customers, and that they only responded once their CUSTOMERS complained, then I mean, come on -- please don't give us advice on rolling over and playing lame. 95% of the planet does nothing to complain when there is a serious problem with a company, and then when 5% of the people complain enough to force them fix it, you wish to congratulate the ... company? How American. Congratulate? Surely you didn't mean me, did you? I think adopting a wait and see attitude is the right thing here. Whether a real attitude adjustment has taken place will (or won't) be borne out by actions. Apologies without corresponding actions are meaningless. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ |
Re: News From HiFn
On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote: Howdy misc@ Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and the VP of marketing (Tom Moore). I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password requester. Perhaps you can tell them about that. -- Regards...Martin
Re: News From HiFn
On 6/29/06, marrandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote: Howdy misc@ Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and the VP of marketing (Tom Moore). I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password requester. Perhaps you can tell them about that. I downloaded the files just fine, perhaps it's an issue with how your ftp client authenticates. -Jamie
Re: News From HiFn
On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 07:57:41PM -0400, marrandy wrote: On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote: Howdy misc@ Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and the VP of marketing (Tom Moore). I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password requester. Perhaps you can tell them about that. -- Regards...Martin I can download stuff just fine with ftp -a ftp.hifn.com Probably your anonymous password didn't include a '@' sign? Some ftp servers reject these. Tobias
Re: News From HiFn
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:15:17 +0200, Tobias Ulmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 07:57:41PM -0400, marrandy wrote: On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote: When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password requester. Perhaps you can tell them about that. -- Regards...Martin I can download stuff just fine with ftp -a ftp.hifn.com Probably your anonymous password didn't include a '@' sign? Some ftp servers reject these. Tobias Most all anon FTP servers ask for an email address as the password for the anonymous account and many check the password input to make sure it's a valid email format, namely including an @ and a dot. JCR -- Free, Open Source CAD, CAM and EDA Tools http://www.DesignTools.org
Re: News From HiFn
On Thursday 29 June 2006 20:35, you wrote: On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:15:17 +0200, Tobias Ulmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 07:57:41PM -0400, marrandy wrote: On Thursday 29 June 2006 18:45, you wrote: When I click on the .txt or .doc files, it throws up a username/password requester. Perhaps you can tell them about that. -- Regards...Martin I can download stuff just fine with ftp -a ftp.hifn.com Probably your anonymous password didn't include a '@' sign? Some ftp servers reject these. Tobias Most all anon FTP servers ask for an email address as the password for the anonymous account and many check the password input to make sure it's a valid email format, namely including an @ and a dot. JCR I was using firefox and also tried konqueror. Just tried it again and it worked fine in both browsers. ??? Don't know what changed. -- Regards...Martin
Re: News From HiFn
On 6/29/06, marrandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was using firefox and also tried konqueror. Just tried it again and it worked fine in both browsers. ??? Don't know what changed. Bouncing off a max-anon-users limit of some kind? CK -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too?
Re: News From HiFn
On 6/29/06, J.C. Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy misc@ Though I stayed out of the last public fiasco regarding HiFn here on the misc@ list, I privately contacted the people I know at the company. I didn't reply just to Hank Cohen who posted here on misc@ but I also included the VP of engineering (Russ Dietz), the CEO (Chris Kebner) and the VP of marketing (Tom Moore). I just got a call this afternoon from Tom Moore to let me know they've set up an anon FTP site (no registration) with their documentation: ftp://ftp.hifn.com This should take care of any of the long standing issues OpenBSD has had with the HiFn's procedures for releasing documentation. I was told HiFn is still working on their new ftp site, so I'm not sure how complete it is at the moment but at least we know there's a start and they are willing to continue working on it. Please check out the readme on the FTP. Basically it says if you wish to automatically get the HiFn updates/errata/notifications, you should probably sign up for the HiFn extranet thing. You don't have to but you can if you want. Since no one else has said it yet good job! That was actually surprisingly quick. Go go media fiascos. -Nick
Re: News From HiFn
Nick Guenther wrote: Since no one else has said it yet good job! That was actually surprisingly quick. Go go media fiascos. -Nick Very good decision (finally) from HiFn and nice done JCR. Which vendor is next? :) Greets, Chris
