Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Stas Bekman wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Geoffrey Young wrote: sorry again for all the confusion with this morning's digest (I do code more carefully than I write, really I do...) this does present the opportune time to ask the list about the future of this digest... currently, the digest does not have a HTML home. Matt at take23.org has graciously agreed to host it and work on the XML stylesheets required for the site. This is a very good thing - but unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... thus, the move to take23.org may mean that the digest no longer appears on the list in plaintext, but merely as a posting with a link to the current version... how does this strike everyone? Why everybody tries to solve a problem that doesn't exist IMHO? Why sourcing in XML in first place. Just throw the email as currently generated by Geoff between PRE/PRE and that's it. That's what ApacheToday and other online zines do and it seems just fine. You're so 1990's Stas :-) I guess that the only issue are the hrefs, but I guess this can be easily converted with s/\[\d+\]/.../. Thats the main issue really, when you're talking about a thread, the [x] links can get quite hard to follow with all the scrolling you end up doing. But we do have it worked out now anyway, we just need to get an easyish interface for uploading new digests built. -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Geoffrey Young wrote: sorry again for all the confusion with this morning's digest (I do code more carefully than I write, really I do...) this does present the opportune time to ask the list about the future of this digest... currently, the digest does not have a HTML home. Matt at take23.org has graciously agreed to host it and work on the XML stylesheets required for the site. This is a very good thing - but unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... thus, the move to take23.org may mean that the digest no longer appears on the list in plaintext, but merely as a posting with a link to the current version... how does this strike everyone? Why everybody tries to solve a problem that doesn't exist IMHO? Why sourcing in XML in first place. Just throw the email as currently generated by Geoff between PRE/PRE and that's it. That's what ApacheToday and other online zines do and it seems just fine. I guess that the only issue are the hrefs, but I guess this can be easily converted with s/\[\d+\]/.../. Thanks _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
Hello, MSMailing a link is easy, converting to a format that looks almost exactly MSlike the current version Geoff sends out is a bit harder (yes, I can MSspawn lynx, which gets most of the way there, but its all coding that MShas to be done). I think the point is emphatically NOT that it has to look *exactly* the same as it does not, but that it should definitely be sent to the list as it is now, as readable text rather than a link. I mean, this IS a *mailing list digest* we're talking about, isn't it? Since I skip some messages with less interesting subject lines, I love getting the mod_perl digest in my INBOX to fill me in on things I may have missed and I'm sure many people feel the same way. FWIW, I'd be glad to write the HTML-text script and send it out to the list, myself, if the digest switches to e-mail-the-link; I could even write a procmail recipe so it happens automatically. MSI mean, we're all web developers right? If you don't have a browser MSrunning the majority of your day then something is seriously up (or MSyou're out of work :-). And we want the digest more widely viewed than MSjust this list - not everyone interested in mod_perl development MSsubscribes here, and take23 is the right forum to host the digest MS(IMHO). It's just a matter of, sometimes you check your e-mail over a slow link or whatever, and it's nice to just be able to skim it right then and there instead of inserting it into your mental queue to check it later. I agree strongly that digests should be mirrored on take23. Have we thought about just taking the current digest e-mail and putting it there? I'm sure as mod_perl developers nobody would find the lack of pretty HTML horribly disconcerting. MSIf someone wants to do the work it takes to make Geoff's life easy for MSgenerating the digest in both HTML and plain text then please volunteer MS(and please don't volunteer unless you really mean it - we get lots of MSvolunteers for take23 work that barely ever turn out to be people who MScan afford the time). If it means that we'll lose the e-mailed digest, I'll put in whatever effort is necessary for this. MSBut it has to be as easy as uploading one version, and the take23 CMS MSautomatically sending out an email to the list. Anything else isn't MSworth it. I think you're being unfair here; it's impossible for it to be exactly as easy given that the task has gone from (send plaintext to list) to (upload XML to take23, convert to HTML, convert to text, send to list). You just mean it isn't worth it to *you*, the maintainer of take23. :) Humbly, Andrew -- Andrew Ho http://www.tellme.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice 650-930-9062 Tellme Networks, Inc. 1-800-555-TELLFax 650-930-9101 --
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Andrew Ho wrote: MSBut it has to be as easy as uploading one version, and the take23 CMS MSautomatically sending out an email to the list. Anything else isn't MSworth it. I think you're being unfair here; it's impossible for it to be exactly as easy given that the task has gone from (send plaintext to list) to (upload XML to take23, convert to HTML, convert to text, send to list). You just mean it isn't worth it to *you*, the maintainer of take23. :) I think you're mistaking what AxKit is capable of :-) - conversion to HTML is a given. Conversion to plain text is a little harder, but doable, but the point is it should all be automated, just as posting news to the site is right now (you don't get to see that part because its secure for the editors only). I now have a stylesheet that will generate "good enough" POD that Pod::Text generates reasonable output. Sadly Pod::Text needs a filename or STDIN (we may be able to fudge it to work on a temp filehandle), which makes the coding a little more complex, but still doable. Its just a matter of time and effort. -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 10:34:15AM +, Matt Sergeant wrote: I now have a stylesheet that will generate "good enough" POD that Pod::Text generates reasonable output. Sadly Pod::Text needs a filename or STDIN (we may be able to fudge it to work on a temp filehandle), which makes the coding a little more complex, but still doable. Its just a matter of time and effort. That's twice you've mentioned this. I assume you are working with 5.005_03. If you take a look at the Pod::Text and Pod::Parser which come with 5.6.0 you will notice that there is a parse_from_filehandle() method which seems to be what you are after. Alternatively, you can download podlators-1.07 and PodParser-1.18 from CPAN. I don't think either has a requirement for 5.6.0. -- Paul Johnson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pjcj.net
[RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
sorry again for all the confusion with this morning's digest (I do code more carefully than I write, really I do...) this does present the opportune time to ask the list about the future of this digest... currently, the digest does not have a HTML home. Matt at take23.org has graciously agreed to host it and work on the XML stylesheets required for the site. This is a very good thing - but unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... thus, the move to take23.org may mean that the digest no longer appears on the list in plaintext, but merely as a posting with a link to the current version... how does this strike everyone? --Geoff
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
I think I personally wouldn't be that much informed as now. I'm too lazy surfer. Don't know bout the others though. But once a month I have to check that page then to be informed :P I think the new versions would show up in list letter's headings too. Tervisi, Antti how does this strike everyone?
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
Geoffrey Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: currently, the digest does not have a HTML home. Matt at take23.org has graciously agreed to host it and work on the XML stylesheets required for the site. This is a very good thing - but unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... thus, the move to take23.org may mean that the digest no longer appears on the list in plaintext, but merely as a posting with a link to the current version... how does this strike everyone? What if... Instead of HTML, you write it in some simplified XML? Then Matt can transform it into HTML, and a simple script can make it plaintext for the mailing list, and maybe even automate the mailing? I, for one, enjoy receiving it in email. I'm sure there are plenty of us who would be glad to help with an XML to plaintext spitter-outter (very technical term) that would be suitable for an email version. Just a thought. Chip -- Chip Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ZFx, Inc. www.zfx.com PGP key available at wwwkeys.us.pgp.net
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
My vote is to keep a plain text version available. I don't use an html-capable mail reader, so sending a link normally means "I'll save this and read it later when I have time", which often means I'll delete it three weeks later in cleaning out my 'READ' mail file... I like the text version because I can quickly scan it to see if there are any interesting topics that I missed during the week. My 2 cents... Steve On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Geoffrey Young wrote: sorry again for all the confusion with this morning's digest (I do code more carefully than I write, really I do...) this does present the opportune time to ask the list about the future of this digest... currently, the digest does not have a HTML home. Matt at take23.org has graciously agreed to host it and work on the XML stylesheets required for the site. This is a very good thing - but unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... thus, the move to take23.org may mean that the digest no longer appears on the list in plaintext, but merely as a posting with a link to the current version... how does this strike everyone? --Geoff =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- My God! What have I done? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Steve Reppucci [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Logical Choice Software http://logsoft.com/ |
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
but unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... Hmmm. converting one text format to another. Sounds like a job for perl ;-) Seriously - it should be possible to create a XSLT stylesheet that will output plain-text, then use XML::Sablotron or one of the other processors to generate the text from the XML. $0.02 Simon. __ This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, our company disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited.
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
Hi Geoff, On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Geoffrey Young wrote: this does present the opportune time to ask the list about the future of this digest... unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... !!!??? That's just plain ridiculous. thus, the move to take23.org may mean that the digest no longer appears on the list in plaintext, but merely as a posting with a link to the current version... how does this strike everyone? YUCK!!! 73, Ged.
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... Hmmm. converting one text format to another. Sounds like a job for perl ;-) Seriously - it should be possible to create a XSLT stylesheet that will output plain-text, then use XML::Sablotron or one of the other processors to generate the text from the XML. Sadly thats not the case. XSLT is not well suited to the task of outputting text documents. It has no facilities for doing things like page widths, indenting, bullet points, etc, for plain text. I have tried this, with the source of the digests being in XHTML, but its harder than it first sounds. You really need to convert to a text format that does have all of these features, such as *roff... -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
Sadly thats not the case. XSLT is not well suited to the task of outputting text documents. It has no facilities for doing things like page widths, indenting, bullet points, etc, for plain text. I have tried this, with the source of the digests being in XHTML, but its harder than it first sounds. You really need to convert to a text format that does have all of these features, such as *roff... Could XSLT output POD ? (or originate in pod use pod::xml ?) Then use Pod::Text to format it ? Simon. __ This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, our company disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited.
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
[ date ] 2001/01/30 | Tuesday | 01:50 PM [ author ] G.W. Haywood [EMAIL PROTECTED] unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... !!!??? That's just plain ridiculous. I agree. If there's going to be an HTML version of it somewhere along the line, couldn't a plain text version be done by doing something like: w3m -dump -T text/html whatever.html plaintext XML - X?HTML - plaintext right? Am I missing something?
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
* at 30/01 14:01 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Sadly thats not the case. XSLT is not well suited to the task of outputting text documents. It has no facilities for doing things like page widths, indenting, bullet points, etc, for plain text. I have tried this, with the source of the digests being in XHTML, but its harder than it first sounds. You really need to convert to a text format that does have all of these features, such as *roff... Could XSLT output POD ? (or originate in pod use pod::xml ?) Then use Pod::Text to format it ? er, this is just some off the top of my head stuff but i seem to recall that axkit can use the template toolkit and that the template toolkit has assorted text formatting plugins so could something not be done via this? (i should say that i've not used axkit or the relevant plugins but i do recall seing something about using TT with axkit at YAPC::Europe last year) struan __ This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, our company disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. -- Struan Donald mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Code Flunky, 365 Plc. http://www.365corp.com/
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, John BEPPU wrote: [ date ] 2001/01/30 | Tuesday | 01:50 PM [ author ] G.W. Haywood [EMAIL PROTECTED] unfortunately, there is no easy way to derive a decent plain text version from an XML base... !!!??? That's just plain ridiculous. I agree. If there's going to be an HTML version of it somewhere along the line, couldn't a plain text version be done by doing something like: w3m -dump -T text/html whatever.html plaintext XML - X?HTML - plaintext right? Am I missing something? Not at all. I guess I should have qualified it with a "using just XML stylesheets". Both XSLT and XPathScript output the whitespace in a document verbatim, which is a real pain for a plain text version. Yes I can do either the above, or output POD, or output *roff. All of these are totally possible, just more work, and we were only opening up the possibility of having the digest as a link, not saying its going to happen. But its less likely to happen the harder it is to do. Mailing a link is easy, converting to a format that looks almost exactly like the current version Geoff sends out is a bit harder (yes, I can spawn lynx, which gets most of the way there, but its all coding that has to be done). I mean, we're all web developers right? If you don't have a browser running the majority of your day then something is seriously up (or you're out of work :-). And we want the digest more widely viewed than just this list - not everyone interested in mod_perl development subscribes here, and take23 is the right forum to host the digest (IMHO). If someone wants to do the work it takes to make Geoff's life easy for generating the digest in both HTML and plain text then please volunteer (and please don't volunteer unless you really mean it - we get lots of volunteers for take23 work that barely ever turn out to be people who can afford the time). But it has to be as easy as uploading one version, and the take23 CMS automatically sending out an email to the list. Anything else isn't worth it. And take23 uses XML, so bear that in mind (XHTML is the format we're happiest with). -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
At 13:54 30/01/2001 +, Matt Sergeant wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously - it should be possible to create a XSLT stylesheet that will output plain-text, then use XML::Sablotron or one of the other processors to generate the text from the XML. Sadly thats not the case. XSLT is not well suited to the task of outputting text documents. It has no facilities for doing things like page widths, indenting, bullet points, etc, for plain text. I have tried this, with the source of the digests being in XHTML, but its harder than it first sounds. You really need to convert to a text format that does have all of these features, such as *roff... That's true, when XSLT outputs texts, what it's really doing is outputting a tree from which all non text nodes have disappeared. That can't give you much formatting unless you are very careful with your xsl:text. But then, filtering that through Text::Autoformat should yield something sensible, and probably good. -- robin b. "Oh no not again !" said the bowl of petunias
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Robin Berjon wrote: At 13:54 30/01/2001 +, Matt Sergeant wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously - it should be possible to create a XSLT stylesheet that will output plain-text, then use XML::Sablotron or one of the other processors to generate the text from the XML. Sadly thats not the case. XSLT is not well suited to the task of outputting text documents. It has no facilities for doing things like page widths, indenting, bullet points, etc, for plain text. I have tried this, with the source of the digests being in XHTML, but its harder than it first sounds. You really need to convert to a text format that does have all of these features, such as *roff... That's true, when XSLT outputs texts, what it's really doing is outputting a tree from which all non text nodes have disappeared. That can't give you much formatting unless you are very careful with your xsl:text. But then, filtering that through Text::Autoformat should yield something sensible, and probably good. Unfortunately my version of autoformat (just installed fresh from CPAN) doesn't seem to do a thing with the output I can produce (which is fairly close, but damned ugly in places, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong with it. I was just using: xpathscript style.xps filename.xml | perl -MText::Autoformat -e autoformat (the docs say this should work, but it doesn't reformat anything). -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Robin Berjon wrote: At 13:54 30/01/2001 +, Matt Sergeant wrote: On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously - it should be possible to create a XSLT stylesheet that will output plain-text, then use XML::Sablotron or one of the other processors to generate the text from the XML. Sadly thats not the case. XSLT is not well suited to the task of outputting text documents. It has no facilities for doing things like page widths, indenting, bullet points, etc, for plain text. I have tried this, with the source of the digests being in XHTML, but its harder than it first sounds. You really need to convert to a text format that does have all of these features, such as *roff... That's true, when XSLT outputs texts, what it's really doing is outputting a tree from which all non text nodes have disappeared. That can't give you much formatting unless you are very careful with your xsl:text. But then, filtering that through Text::Autoformat should yield something sensible, and probably good. Looks like I can get a lot closer with Pod::Text, the sad thing is that Pod::Text can't read from anything but a file. *sigh* -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\
Re: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
Matt Sergeant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Robin Berjon wrote:
At 13:54 30/01/2001 +, Matt Sergeant wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Seriously - it should be possible to create a XSLT stylesheet that
will
output plain-text, then use XML::Sablotron or one of the other
processors
to generate the text from the XML.
Sadly thats not the case. XSLT is not well suited to the task of
outputting text documents. It has no facilities for doing things like page
widths, indenting, bullet points, etc, for plain text. I have tried this,
with the source of the digests being in XHTML, but its harder than it
first sounds. You really need to convert to a text format that does have
all of these features, such as *roff...
That's true, when XSLT outputs texts, what it's really doing is outputting
a tree from which all non text nodes have disappeared. That can't give you
much formatting unless you are very careful with your xsl:text. But then,
filtering that through Text::Autoformat should yield something sensible,
and probably good.
Unfortunately my version of autoformat (just installed fresh from CPAN)
doesn't seem to do a thing with the output I can produce (which is fairly
close, but damned ugly in places, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong
with it. I was just using: xpathscript style.xps filename.xml | perl
-MText::Autoformat -e autoformat (the docs say this should work, but it
doesn't reformat anything).
That should just reformat the first paragraph it sees. Try
... | perl -MText::Autoformat -e 'autoformat *STDIN, {all = 1}'
--
Piers
RE: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
Looks like I can get a lot closer with Pod::Text, the sad thing is that Pod::Text can't read from anything but a file. *sigh* That's what /proc/self/fd/0 in Linux is for. :-) $ ps | cat /proc/self/fd/0 PID TTY TIME CMD 16085 pts/600:00:00 bash 18434 pts/600:00:00 ps 18435 pts/600:00:00 cat This works as long as the reader does not need to seek in the file, which I doubt will be a problem if a perl module is doing the reading. You'll probably need to have Tod::Text run in a different process, but at least you can now have it as part of a pipe. David Harris President, DRH Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.drh.net/
RE: [RFC] mod_perl Digest path...
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, David Harris wrote: Looks like I can get a lot closer with Pod::Text, the sad thing is that Pod::Text can't read from anything but a file. *sigh* That's what /proc/self/fd/0 in Linux is for. :-) $ ps | cat /proc/self/fd/0 PID TTY TIME CMD 16085 pts/600:00:00 bash 18434 pts/600:00:00 ps 18435 pts/600:00:00 cat This works as long as the reader does not need to seek in the file, which I doubt will be a problem if a perl module is doing the reading. You'll probably need to have Tod::Text run in a different process, but at least you can now have it as part of a pipe. This is no help as I would have to fork to use this (if I'm reading it properly). I'd rather write to a locked file... :) -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\
