Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Fred, I explained you that commits that was ok for us both are ok. But when
you did not listen other opinion you had risk to create wrong commit.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

Hello everybody.
mse-org/mseide-msegui made a false start.

It is my fault and I apologize for that.

IMHO there should not be a unique developer to decide what to commit.

So I did regression with the original mseide-msegui from GitLab.

I hope that one day developers/lovers/users of msegui will join the mse-org 
develop team.
And it would be wonderful if the new members have a few knowledge in Pascal and 
how msegui works.

Have lot of fun.

Fre;D

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

It's not my opinion, but opinion of Martin.
See:
https://github.com/mse-org/mseide-msegui/tree/master/apps/i18ndemo
https://sourceforge.net/p/mseide-msegui/code/ci/master/tree/tools/i18n/main.pas#l1005
I don't like it too, but Martin did it for cross-platform
compatibility and do not break current dir for installed package.

> Also there is no break of Martin layout because he did not enable i18n for 
> mseide nor for msei18n.

But he tested my projects and helped me to do it correctly.


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

Hi Alex.

> Language projects must be locayed in one level
> subdirectory but libraries with executable files.

It is your opinion.
I do not want to have hundreds of library-lang in the root directory of the 
application.
I prefer to have it in a sub-directory: /lang.

Also there is no break of Martin layout because he did not enable i18n for 
mseide nor for msei18n.

Please, do your own fork and stop spitting your venom everywhere.

And for Russian mse users, do not worry, I will release asap a Russian version 
of mseide and msei18n.
For Linux 64/32, FreeBSD 64/32, Windows 64/32 and arm Rpi 64/32.

PS: Alex, please take some vacation.
PS2: Do you have a dog?  If no, it is time to find one.

Fre;D


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Hi Fred,

I never developed compatibility only for Mageia Linux. My package was
workable for any linux even for MagOS Linux! And I always thought
about compatibility with Windows even.
But you did not. You broke compatibility even with Martin's ideology
for locales. Language projects must be locayed in one level
subdirectory but libraries with executable files. Otherwise needs to
change current dir on read only file system directory. I explained to
you before. But you reverted my commits and commited your wrong
commits again.
So really nothing to discuss with developer who understands nothing
and broke a lot and a lot.
But if package was deleted from repositories it means death for
project. So sorry. But you removed me from developer team of mse. As a
result you have regress and not popular project.

Alex


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

Hello to all Russian friends.

I have read some strange things there:
http://freepascal.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11=8754=154706=mseide#p154706

and here:
http://freepascal.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11=42593=30=mseide

I will to reassure you that I am absolutely not in plan to change the essence 
of mseide-msegui.
All the commits I did are about msei18n that was not correctly functioning.

I want to do (if I can) what your sympathetic compatriot asked but he must know 
that msegui will not be compatible only for 
magos-linux.

Mseide-msegui is multi os-arch, including Linux 64/32, FreeBSD 64/32, Windows 
64/32.

Have fun.

Fre;D

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

Hello Roland.

Super.

Note that multi-lines words are not good recognized in Windows 10.
It seems that linebreak is not the same for Linux and Windows.

It is fixed here but I will do more tests to be sure before commit it.
Anyway single line words is ok on the version of previous attachment.

Note also that if you use mesi18n, the first time you run it, you may set 
"Configuration de msei18n" according your system.

Good luck!

Fre;D


De : Roland Chastain 
Envoyé : mercredi 17 avril 2019 10:15
À : mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

Hello Fred! Thank you. I will look at it this afternoon.

Regards.

Roland

Envoyé: mardi 16 avril 2019 à 17:16
De: "fredvs" 
À: mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet: Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects
Re-hello Roland.

OK, deeper tested with Windows 10.

In attachment fr version of mseide.exe and msei18n.exe compiled on Windows
10 and tested.

You may try msei18n with the trp files that are in /lang/lang_fr and
i18n/lang/lang_fr.

mseide-msei18n_win10_fr.zip
<http://mseide-msegui-talk.13964.n8.nabble.com/file/t2/mseide-msei18n_win10_fr.zip>

Fre;D






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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Roland Chastain]

Hello Fred! Thank you. I will look at it this afternoon.

 

Regards.

 

Roland

 

Envoyé: mardi 16 avril 2019 à 17:16
De: "fredvs" 
À: mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet: Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

Re-hello Roland.

OK, deeper tested with Windows 10.

In attachment fr version of mseide.exe and msei18n.exe compiled on Windows
10 and tested.

You may try msei18n with the trp files that are in /lang/lang_fr and
i18n/lang/lang_fr.

mseide-msei18n_win10_fr.zip
<http://mseide-msegui-talk.13964.n8.nabble.com/file/t2/mseide-msei18n_win10_fr.zip>

Fre;D






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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Re-hello Roland.

OK, deeper tested with Windows 10.

In attachment fr version of mseide.exe and msei18n.exe compiled on Windows
10 and tested.

You may try msei18n with the trp files that are in /lang/lang_fr and
i18n/lang/lang_fr.

mseide-msei18n_win10_fr.zip

  

Fre;D






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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Thanks Roland.

You will need the source of mseide-msegui from mse-org to use msei18n.
There was some problems with the trp (mse TRanslate Project files) for
Windows 10 (but ok with wine).
So was added in each /lang/lang_xx/ of mseide and msei18n a trp for Windows
and a trp for Unix.

So if you want to play with i18n, please use the trp of
mse-org/mseide-mesgui (not the one in previous attachment).

Note also that the trp of mseide is big and can take some time to load.

Fre;D




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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Roland Chastain]

Hello Fred. Thank you. I test that ASAP.

Best regards.

Roland 

 

Envoyé: lundi 15 avril 2019 à 23:27
De: "Fred van Stappen" 
À: "General list for MSEide+MSEgui" 
Objet: Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects



@Roland bis:


 

 

Note that in the attachment the binaries were tested with Windows 10, but not deep.

 

Fre;D

 

 

De : fredvs 
Envoyé : lundi 15 avril 2019 23:21
À : mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

 



Hello Roland.

It is always a pleasure to read your good advices.

In attachment, mseide and msei18n en version Française.

mseide-msei18n.zip
<http://mseide-msegui-talk.13964.n8.nabble.com/file/t2/mseide-msei18n.zip> 

Note that for mseide there are still words not translated (asap if I can).
But for msei18n, all is Frenchy.

If you want to try msei18n, maybe begin with
/i18n/lang/lang_fr/msei18n_i18n.trp.

At first load you will have a error message about the macro "Directory of
units and Forms"
and the project-config form will appear.

Just adjust the 3 yellow fields according of your system.

You may play with import/export into po or text file.
The text-with-context is a format for use of Google-translate.
The idea is to associate each word to translate with a other (the path of
the node without delimiters) that Google-translate will not understand.

Once you have done the translation, import that translated text file into
msei18n project.
The not translated word will be used to assign the original node value).

It is in beta test, but it works.

Have fun.

Fre;D








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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

@Roland bis:

Note that in the attachment the binaries were tested with Windows 10, but not 
deep.

Fre;D


De : fredvs 
Envoyé : lundi 15 avril 2019 23:21
À : mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

Hello Roland.

It is always a pleasure to read your good advices.

In attachment, mseide and msei18n en version Française.

mseide-msei18n.zip
<http://mseide-msegui-talk.13964.n8.nabble.com/file/t2/mseide-msei18n.zip>

Note that for mseide there are still words not translated (asap if I can).
But for msei18n, all is Frenchy.

If you want to try msei18n, maybe begin with
/i18n/lang/lang_fr/msei18n_i18n.trp.

At first load you will have a error message about the macro "Directory of
units and Forms"
and the project-config form will appear.

Just adjust the 3 yellow fields according of your system.

You may play with import/export into po or text file.
The text-with-context is a format for use of Google-translate.
The idea is to associate each word to translate with a other (the path of
the node without delimiters) that Google-translate will not understand.

Once you have done the translation, import that translated text file into
msei18n project.
The not translated word will be used to assign the original node value).

It is in beta test, but it works.

Have fun.

Fre;D








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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Hello Roland.

It is always a pleasure to read your good advices.

In attachment, mseide and msei18n en version Française.

mseide-msei18n.zip
  

Note that for mseide there are still words not translated (asap if I can).
But for msei18n, all is Frenchy.

If you want to try msei18n, maybe begin with
/i18n/lang/lang_fr/msei18n_i18n.trp.

At first load you will have a error message about the macro "Directory of
units and Forms" 
and the project-config form will appear.

Just adjust the 3 yellow fields according of your system.

You may play with import/export into po or text file.
The text-with-context is a format for use of Google-translate.
The idea is to associate each word to translate with a other (the path of
the node without delimiters) that Google-translate will not understand.

Once you have done the translation, import that translated text file into
msei18n project.
The not translated word will be used to assign the original node value).

It is in beta test, but it works.

Have fun.

Fre;D








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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Guys even did not see code, did not test, but wrote comments here.

> All your wishes are for your packages-maintainer needs.
> They are not really needed for the particular developer.

Absolutely no. Package is just archive of installed application.
At the moment it's impossible to build language libraries and to
install them. You want to run msei18n in gui mode, but it means needs
to provide all mfm files of library for each language and they must be
up to date. Console mode of msei18n is the most important task to
build libraries (all languages) using only trp, trd or po files.
The other task is gettext - localization of application not by library
but by MO/PO files. But you know nothing about localization.

> And for this that method is needed:  copy(msestring,x,y).
> Sadly the result of that method is not LC_ALL=C compatible.
> Fortunately, thanks to the **great** lazutf8 package and his
> utf8copy(msestring,x,y) method, the result is  LC_ALL=C compatible.
> Big wow to the developers of lazutf8.

It's wrong way again.
The first of all you have no opened issue for utf8 problem with
copy(msestring,x,y).
The second needs to fix copy(msestring,x,y).
The third is asking help here.

But it's really nothing to discuss, you do not understand
explanations, you even cannot revert your own commit correctly:
https://github.com/mse-org/mseide-msegui/commit/49fd34fa2d6037ea8d0caffda1174a027a45cd6f
https://github.com/mse-org/mseide-msegui/commit/f05070533c890ee6e1d8bb59b3cae8368f50577a

I leave mse-org organization.
Language project on transifex is in read only mode.
Package was removed from repository. I do not distribute bad and
problematic packages.

Good luck,
Alex


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 14/04/2019 00:28, Alexey Loginov wrote:
> Main developing of application. You have fork.

As far as I understand, NOBODY has write access to Martin's original git
repository in GitLabs - so the only way forward is to fork/clone that
repo into a new "official" location where read/write access can be
controlled. I understood that is exactly what Fred did.


Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Roland Chastain]

@Alexey

Try to keep correct, please.

 

@Fred

Hello Fred!

 

I don't know exactly what is the problem but it looks to me obvious that you should stop to collaborate with Alexey.

 

Maybe you should let that project sleep for some time. After some time you will see what is good and what is not in the modifications that Alexey and you have tried to do. Sorry, I can't say more, because I have no idea of the subject.

 

In any case, your work won't be lost. You will have learned things. In any case Martin's projects need at less a maintainer, and it is evident that you are the person for that.

 

Sorry for my little contribution, I was busy on other projects.

 

Good Holy Week.

 

Roland

 

Envoyé: samedi 13 avril 2019 à 17:21
De: "fredvs" 
À: mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet: Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

Hello Everybody.

Maybe it was not a good idea to create MSE-org.

Maybe it is better to delete it.

I am so sorry how the things turn.

If it was for me, it was long time ago that I would remove it.
But it is so sad for Martin.

I do not understand so much hate, I did scrupulously follow all the orders
of Alex.
In all my life I never had so hard experience, it if was a customer that
treat me like that I would directly stop to work.
But for Martin, I may not.

I did test msei18n in all corners of last commit.

Sorry but I cannot find problems.

I never thought things will be like this.
And all that for a chmod (that he ask to add).

By the way, I did see posts of Alex 6 years ago with Martin about msei18n.
Huh, Martin did not have my patience.

My God, what a hell.

;-(








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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Nothing to discuss with stupid developer. Just to ban his fork.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

All your wishes are for your packages-maintainer needs.
They are not really needed for the particular developer.

> It was LC_ALL=C compatible before. Martin did it without Lazarus code.

Yes because, like clearly explained in one issue, now the new search-index
if by name and component.

And for this that method is needed:  copy(msestring,x,y).

Sadly the result of that method is not LC_ALL=C compatible.

Fortunately, thanks to the **great** lazutf8 package and his
utf8copy(msestring,x,y) method, the result is  LC_ALL=C compatible.
Big wow to the developers of lazutf8.

>>What is code upstream?
>Main developing of application. You have fork.

Still not understood, sorry I am stupid.



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

> With what OS? Here tested on Linux Debian 9.5 64/32bit, FreeBSD 10 64bit,
> Windows 10 64/32, Rpi ARM 32, for all it is working out-of-the-box.
> Asap, I will release mseide with lang libraries for Russian,
Spanish, Italian, French, German and Dutch.
> (Of course every complete lang is welcome).

Languages will never be completed. Needs to include all 100 or to allow to
compile who needs it.
You can compile only 1 language library and by gui only. It's not needed.
Needs to compile all 100 languages by command line - console mode of
msei18n.

> No gettext support
> Mostly and no more needed, msei18n can do the work with his tools.

Gettext support is using MO files for localization or at least PO files
instead of MO.

> Languages are present just to be present without using except constants
> cause they are directly in code.
> Sorry but this one I do not understand.  Are you talking
about seconsts_xx.pas unit files?

PO files are present, but nothing uses them to have localized gui.

> I prefer hidden vs disabled

You do not respect Martin. He disabled them, but not hided.

> Lazutf8 instead of original Martin's strings.
> Yes it was for you needs, you impose me to make msei18n LC_ALL=C
compatible.
> Now msei18n is fully utf8 compatible, even using LC_ALL=C

It was LC_ALL=C compatible before. Martin did it without Lazarus code.

>What is code upstream?

Main developing of application. You have fork.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Ha, you are cooler.

Hello Alex.
Ok, let's do step by step.

> msei18n has no console mode. 

No, so sorry, like  explained on issues, for next release, maybe.

> compillation of multilingual libraries is impossible

With what OS? Here tested on Linux Debian 9.5 64/32bit, FreeBSD 10 64bit,
Windows 10 64/32, Rpi ARM 32, for all it is working out-of-the-box.
Asap, I will release mseide with lang libraries for Russian, Spanish,
Italian, French, German and Dutch.
(Of course every complete lang is welcome).

> No gettext support

Mostly and no more needed, msei18n can do the work with his tools.

> Languages are present just to be present without using except constants
> cause they are directly in code.

Sorry but this one I do not understand.  Are you talking about
mseconsts_xx.pas unit files?

> Gui of msei18n is customized 

Yes because now at loading the last project is not loaded.
It was annoying becuse some time you only need to use tools.

> Settings are in Tools instead of Settings.

Yes, I did it only to annoy you!
It is a very, very little detail and if it is only that the main problem, I
am **more** than happy.

> Menu items are hidden, but original Martin's are disabled.

Yes now at loading no project is loaded, so no need of save, edit, import,
etc.
I prefer hidden vs disabled, people are lost with so many disabled buttons.

> Lazutf8 instead of original Martin's strings.

Yes it was for you needs, you impose me to make msei18n LC_ALL=C compatible.
Now msei18n is fully utf8 compatible, even using LC_ALL=C 

> Half of code cannot be upstreamed.

What is code upstream?











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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

I'm objective. Developing was not 4 months, but 1 month. Result of
developing: msei18n has no console mode, compillation of multilingual
libraries is impossible. No gettext support. Languages are present just to
be present without using except constants cause they are directly in code.
Gui of msei18n is customized and has no sense. Settings are in Tools
instead of Settings. Headerform is Tools, but not toolsform. Menu items are
hidden, but original Martin's are disabled. Lazutf8 instead of original
Martin's strings. Etc.
Half of code cannot be upstreamed.
And this is not bad words, but critical analyze. Other opinion.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

Thanks Graeme.


De : Graeme Geldenhuys 
Envoyé : samedi 13 avril 2019 17:46
À : mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

On 13/04/2019 16:21, fredvs wrote:
> I do not understand so much hate, I did scrupulously follow all the orders
> of Alex.

Fred, don't dispair. Managing an open source project is not always easy.
I think it is fantastic that you at least took the time and effort to
continue Martin's work, instead of just letting it rot.

Ignore what others say - if they don't like your efforts, they can fork
it and see where each version goes. That's reality when it comes to open
source projects. Maybe the forked versions will unite months or years
down the line.

>From my experience, when took up the challenge with fpGUI, after it was
dormant for 6+ years, things went something like this... Nobody was
available to explain anything, so I took it step by step, learning the
internals from receiving the OS events to how it distributes through the
framework and eventually reaches a widget (eg: TButton - I always find
that a good widget to start with). Then I studied the handling of
top-level windows and how they receive events and how painting works.
Once I understood those steps, I had a good enough understanding to
continue development of the fpGUI framework - and eventually [a year
down the line] decided to rewrite everything (yet I still use features
from the original design - not everything was bad). All this takes time
though.

To put it in perspective, Martin has been working on MSEide+MSEgui since
1999! That's 20 years of knowledge to try and learn now. But take it
small steps at a time - like you are doing (from what I understand). One
is bound to make mistakes, but that is how you learn.

Back to fpGUI. In the early days I promoted the idea that I am bringing
fpGUI back to life. I had loads of critics obviously regarding what I
was doing, that I'm wasting my time etc etc.  Lots of talk, but very few
actually had anything to contribute it terms of code. Some even
threatened to fork fpGUI and do it their way, just because I didn't
agree with what they were suggesting. I welcomed them to do that, but in
reality they never did fork fpGUI. I persistent and myself and many
others are very happy with where fpGUI is now.

Give it time Fred - don't quit now!

Regards,
  Graeme

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 13/04/2019 16:21, fredvs wrote:
> I do not understand so much hate, I did scrupulously follow all the orders
> of Alex.

Fred, don't dispair. Managing an open source project is not always easy.
I think it is fantastic that you at least took the time and effort to
continue Martin's work, instead of just letting it rot.

Ignore what others say - if they don't like your efforts, they can fork
it and see where each version goes. That's reality when it comes to open
source projects. Maybe the forked versions will unite months or years
down the line.

>From my experience, when took up the challenge with fpGUI, after it was
dormant for 6+ years, things went something like this... Nobody was
available to explain anything, so I took it step by step, learning the
internals from receiving the OS events to how it distributes through the
framework and eventually reaches a widget (eg: TButton - I always find
that a good widget to start with). Then I studied the handling of
top-level windows and how they receive events and how painting works.
Once I understood those steps, I had a good enough understanding to
continue development of the fpGUI framework - and eventually [a year
down the line] decided to rewrite everything (yet I still use features
from the original design - not everything was bad). All this takes time
though.

To put it in perspective, Martin has been working on MSEide+MSEgui since
1999! That's 20 years of knowledge to try and learn now. But take it
small steps at a time - like you are doing (from what I understand). One
is bound to make mistakes, but that is how you learn.

Back to fpGUI. In the early days I promoted the idea that I am bringing
fpGUI back to life. I had loads of critics obviously regarding what I
was doing, that I'm wasting my time etc etc.  Lots of talk, but very few
actually had anything to contribute it terms of code. Some even
threatened to fork fpGUI and do it their way, just because I didn't
agree with what they were suggesting. I welcomed them to do that, but in
reality they never did fork fpGUI. I persistent and myself and many
others are very happy with where fpGUI is now.

Give it time Fred - don't quit now!

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Hello Everybody.

Maybe it was not a good idea to create MSE-org.

Maybe it is better to delete it.

I am so sorry how the things turn.

If it was for me, it was long time ago that I would remove it.
But it is so sad for Martin.

I do not understand so much hate, I did scrupulously follow all the orders
of Alex.
In all my life I never had so hard experience, it if was a customer that
treat me like that I would directly stop to work.
But for Martin, I may not.

I did test msei18n in all corners of last commit.

Sorry but I cannot find problems.
 
I never thought things will be like this.
And all that for a chmod (that he ask to add).

By the way, I did see posts of Alex 6 years ago with Martin about msei18n.
Huh, Martin did not have my patience.

My God, what a hell.

;-(








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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Nothing to test. Low quality, regress, no compatibility, many bugs. Some
commits are stupid. Each new commit had new bugs or something broken.
MSE died, Fred's fork is the worst, not developing, but playing kid games.
chmod on root owner directory by user is the best stupid. I rejected, he
commited again and again hearing nothing. Stupid developing.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

@Alex: Thanks for your kinds words.

Hello everybody.

After 4 months of hard work, Alex as deep tester (68 issues and more than 100 
new PO languages files)
and I as developer (more than 300 commits and thousand lines of code)
are proud to present the full working new msei18n.

- Totally compatible with previous version.
- Import of PO and POT files with and without context.
- Export of PO ad POT files  with and without context.
- Fully compatible with Gettext (for all mse).
- Automatic conversion of PO files into mseconst_xx.pas files (more than 100 
languages registered).
- Automatic conversion of mseconst_xx.pas into of PO files (more than 100 
languages registered).
- Totally new search index, by value and component name.
- And much more.

Everybody is welcome to test.

Have fun.

Fre;D
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Hi guys,

After working with Fred I decided MSE died. He did commits that never can
be upstreamed. He is not able to understand regression. He closed issues in
bugtracker with doing nothing. He develops only for him hearing nothing.
Resolution:
mse must be deleted from repository of distributions
transifex localization project must be closed

After Martin developing of mse goes in wrong way. I'm leaving. I have no
time to revert his wrong commits, but he commited again. So stupid.

Alex
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

Hello Graeme.

OK for fpc wiki: http://wiki.freepascal.org/MSEide_%26_MSEgui

But for readme files of SourceForge and GitLab, I do not ave the passwords,  ;-(

Fre;D



De : Graeme Geldenhuys 
Envoyé : jeudi 28 février 2019 10:50
À : mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

On 28/02/2019 00:26, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> The repository of mseide-msegui is here:
> https://github.com/mse-org/mseide-msegui

That's really good.  Now I also recommend everybody update all other
MSEide+MSEgui related web pages and links (eg: FPC/Lazarus Wiki about
MSEide, SourceForge, and README files etc.). That way anybody that looks
for MSEide+MSEgui will now see the new repository information.


Regards,
  Graeme

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 28/02/2019 00:26, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> The repository of mseide-msegui is here:
> https://github.com/mse-org/mseide-msegui

That's really good.  Now I also recommend everybody update all other
MSEide+MSEgui related web pages and links (eg: FPC/Lazarus Wiki about
MSEide, SourceForge, and README files etc.). That way anybody that looks
for MSEide+MSEgui will now see the new repository information.


Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

Hello.

> Fred, just organize organization on github

OK, the oranization is mse-org.

The repository of mseide-msegui is here:
https://github.com/mse-org/mseide-msegui


> add people to team.

Of course, for this I need your github user names.

Fre;D



De : Alexey Loginov 
Envoyé : jeudi 28 février 2019 00:19
À : General list for MSEide+MSEgui
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

Fred, just organize organization on github and add people to team. It's bad we 
develop nothing because of not organized team.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Fred, just organize organization on github and add people to team. It's bad
we develop nothing because of not organized team.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

@ Alexey Loginov

Ooops, I see now tat there are other Alexey Loginov with different github 
account!

So, sorry but I removed the invitation to https://github.com/alelog until I am 
sure it is you.

Fre;D



De : Fred van Stappen 
Envoyé : mercredi 27 février 2019 23:49
À : General list for MSEide+MSEgui
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

> Needs to organize developing already and add people to team who wants to 
> develop!

Hello.

I did sent a invitation to your alelog github-account to be administrator for 
this projects:
https://github.com/fredvs/mseide-msegui
https://github.com/fredvs/mselang

So you may push your commits there.

Of course  organizers or/and advices are welcome.

Fre;D



De : Alexey Loginov 
Envoyé : mercredi 27 février 2019 20:12
À : General list for MSEide+MSEgui
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

Needs to organize developing already and add people to team who wants
to develop!


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Fred van Stappen]

> Needs to organize developing already and add people to team who wants to 
> develop!

Hello.

I did sent a invitation to your alelog github-account to be administrator for 
this projects:
https://github.com/fredvs/mseide-msegui
https://github.com/fredvs/mselang

So you may push your commits there.

Of course  organizers or/and advices are welcome.

Fre;D



De : Alexey Loginov 
Envoyé : mercredi 27 février 2019 20:12
À : General list for MSEide+MSEgui
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

Needs to organize developing already and add people to team who wants
to develop!


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Needs to organize developing already and add people to team who wants
to develop!


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Alexey Loginov wrote
> Where to send patches for mseide+msegui?

Hello Alexey.

IMHO, because you are the first to propose patches, the simpler would be
that you fork MSEgui-ide from GitLab.
Then do a add-commit-push to your forked Github (or Gitlab) MSE-gui-ide
site.
And in the future we will use your Github (or Gitlab) site for update.

Re-IMHO it seems to me that it will be difficult to find the keys of the
original MSEgui-ide GitLab from Martin.
(But maybe I am wrong, so sorry).

Fre;D







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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Where to send patches for mseide+msegui?
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> what steps are needed to use it? 

Like explained in a previous post, the alpha release should work
out-of-the-box.

To compile mselang, mlc, mbc and mli, you may use the prj file via MSEide
(or ideU).

mselang.prj is in /mselang, mlc.prj and mbc.prj are in /mselang/compiler,
mli.prj is in /mselang/interpreter.

Please check in Project-option, Make-Directories, the needed directories for
the OS (unix or windows).

Note that this release is 32 bit only.

Fre;D





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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> A real Genius, but always happy to take part in very interesting
discussions.

Thanks Michael (and you are a Genius too).

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> The Delphi XE, a "code aware string type" 

Ha, ok, thanks for the clear explanation.

I did not test yet deeply strings feature of mselang.
At first look, there are type string8, string16, string32 but did not test
the features.

Other thing.
About some reactions in fpc-dev mailing list about MSElang:

http://lists.freepascal.org/pipermail/fpc-devel/2019-February/040196.html

Strangely my post does not appear.
Maybe it is better because I was too hot after reading some total lies.

But there are interesting post too, like this: 

> On Sat, 16 Feb 2019, J. Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> I still program mostly using language features of essentially D7. 
> Works fine, and I don't think my productivity is in any way enhanced by
> all the new features.

I still have (big) Windows GUI projects in production, mainly
query-databases, that use Pascal code via Delphi 7.
Those projects are regularly updated and compiled with that old Delphi 7.
All still work like charm.

I did try some miraculous new Delphi features like generic for example.
Yes it is cool but in the real world, as I sensed, it appends conflict
sometimes.
So I do not use generic any more (and at the end, no much lines of code
spared). 

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Michael Schnell]

> 
> but what is "code aware strings" ?

The Delphi XE, a "code aware string type" can be defined to hold different 
types of Data by adding a number in parentheses  to the "string word in the 
definition. E.g. "TMyString = String(CP_ACP)"; there is a definition CP_ACP = 
0; meaning default ANSI code page, or "TMyString = String(CP_UTF16) with 
CP_UTF16 being defined = 1200; meaning  utf-16. Hence a String (type) can be 
defined to hole either of several different encoding variants, with an element 
size of either of 1, 2 or 4 bytes. If assigning a string content to some string 
variable, an automatic cote conversion will be done. Martin did think this is 
abysmal. And he is right, as this breaks compatibility in many cases and asks 
for a lot of nasty misconceptions.

Some messages above I wrote: 
I had been discussing this with Martin some two years ago. We agreed that the 
way it's implemented in Delphi (and even more inconsistent) in fpc is not at 
all optimal, and he said he would not do new strings in mselang. I did not hear 
any news about this since that time. In fact I wrote an article about a (IMHO) 
more consistent way to implement code aware strings -> 
http://wiki.freepascal.org/not_Delphi_compatible_enhancement_for_Unicode_Support

-Michael







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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> This  shows that it can do Unicode, bit not that it does code aware
strings. 

Hello Michael.

Sorry for my immense ignorance but what is "code aware strings" ?

Goggling "code aware strings" or "code aware strings + delphi" does not give
anything.

;-(

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Michael Schnell]

> 
> Please, take a look at this picture:
> 
> 
>

This  shows that it can do Unicode, bit not that it does code aware strings. 


-Michael



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> what steps are needed to use it? 

Re-hello.

MSElang is out-of-the-box.
https://github.com/fredvs/mselang/releases

Yes, I agree, when a program works directly, without to oblige to
install/config mountains of things, it gives me always a strange magic
feeling.

;-)

Fre;D 



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Hello Patrick.

> Is there any documentation on how to set up the mselang environment / 
> what steps are needed to use it? 

I would do it with pleasure (but it is so simple that it not needed !)

MSElang is mlc, mbc, mli and mselang.

- mlc compiler produces mli file that can be interpreted
   by mli interpreter.

- mbc compiler produces bc (bit-code) file that can be compiled+linked by
Clang.

- mli is the interpreter of .lpi files.

- mselang is the gui application that chains all the MSElang elements.

I did add some note in github-release:

> MSElang the Pascal compiler for LLVM.

> On Linux, Raspberry pi and FreeBSD all is working, MSElang can produce
> working executable.

> For Windows 32, producing lpi and bc files is ok.
> You may interpreter the lpi files with the mli interpreter.

> Here how to try MSElang:

> You need the LLVM suite to produce a executable.

> For Linux multi-arch 64 bit do this:
> $ sudo apt-get install llvm:i386

> For Linux 32 and Rpi bit do this:
> $ sudo apt-get install llvm

> For FreeBSD 64 bit multi-arch:
> $ sudo pkg install i386-llvm

> For FreeBSD 32 bit:
> $ sudo pkg install llvm

> For Windows the easier is to use the installer given by LLVM.
> http://releases.llvm.org/download.html

> When LLVM is installed, download the mselang beta2 release.
> (lin32 for Linux32 bit, rpi32 for Raspberry Pi, bsd32 for FreeBSD 32 and
> win32 for Windows).

> Unzip it somewhere.

> Run mselang(.exe).

> Click on button "Parse".

> And cross your fingers...




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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Patrick Goupell]

Hello Fred,

Is there any documentation on how to set up the mselang environment / 
what steps are needed to use it?


Thank you

Patrick


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects
> Feb 05, 2019; 10:16am — by   Michael Schnell
> Does it really feature coding aware strings ? 

Hello.

Please, take a look at this picture:

<http://mseide-msegui-talk.13964.n8.nabble.com/file/t2/mselang_string.png> 



Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> but I guess in reality it is still going to be a long wait if they ever
decide to switch to Git. :) 

It depends of when Delphi is going to switch to Git. :-)



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 06/02/2019 10:42, fredvs wrote:
> Ooops, yes, I forgot, for this fpc should use git anf fpc does not want to
> use git.

I'm working (contracting) with Michael van Canneyt. At least he has been
choosing to use git for commercial projects for the last 2-3 years now
(before he would always choose SubVersion). So he has already seen the
benefits of Git. So who knows, maybe other FPC core team members have
noticed the same, but I guess in reality it is still going to be a long
wait if they ever decide to switch to Git. :)

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> In other C projects that I work, the garbage-manager of the linker is used 
> to check if there is no garbage in code.

Take as example the libsndfile project:

https://github.com/erikd/libsndfile/pulls

If you propose a pull-request, you have first to test your proposition via a
"Pass Test Suite".
Those series of tests done by external applications like
https://ci.appveyor.com check for example if there is no garbage, or memory
leaks or whatever that is in the test suite you have defined.

If your pull-request does not pass all tests, it is not accepted and will
not be considered.

IMHO it is a excellent pre-filter and if your pull-request is not accepted,
you may shout against the test-suite and not again the core-developers.

Ooops, yes, I forgot, for this fpc should use git anf fpc does not want to
use git.

Fre;D 



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Michael Schnell]

Ø  Java faster than C++ ?

If a language running in a Framework is the fastest, seemingly the high-speed 
stuff can be handled by the Framework itself.

So you also could try C# / .NET / Mono

And if you want to do Pascal Oxygen / RemObjects “Elements”

-Michael


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> So in my opinion, unless the FPC team grows massively, or there is a 
> dedicated developer in the FPC team that works purely on performance, 
>vnothing is going to change. 

IMHO. first of all, there is something to do in cleaning code.
I do not talk only about memory leaks generated by the compiler at working.

It is not normal, in Linux, that the garbage-manager of the linker 
("SmartLink" using -X parameter) does clean 50 % of the code.
If you do not use "smartlink", your executable is 50 % bigger because of
garbage.

In other C projects that I work, the garbage-manager of the linker is used
to check if there is no garbage in code.
This because gcc or Clang does not produce garbage.
It is not the case of fpc, even for a empty program. 

Fre;D




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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Hum, and comparison with clang + opt vs Java ?

About mselang test-video, maybe my favorite:
mselang_exec_ext2.mp4
  

Take a look how mselang deals with external libraries (wow).
And how it does with float.
And how it does with conversion.
And how it does with optimization.

And how it works perfectly.

Fre;D





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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Marcos Douglas B. Santos]

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 2:37 PM Noel Frankinet  wrote:
>
> When a C++ program is slower than its counterpart in Java, its always because 
> the C++ implementation is weak.
> Java cannot be faster than machine code and a good C++ implementation must be 
> equivalent to machine code.

And I would say the same about Object Pascal.

regards,
Marcos Douglas


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[code dz]

java virtual machine choose the fastest instructions per cpu , so no
wonder it is fast


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 05/02/2019 16:36, Noel Frankinet wrote:
> When a C++ program is slower than its counterpart in Java, its always
> because the C++ implementation is weak.

Never underestimate the developer to f**k things up. :-)  No matter the
language, some developers can always cause havoc.


> Java cannot be faster than machine code and a good C++ implementation must
> be equivalent to machine code.

These days the Java Runtime (JRE) compiles the byte code into machine
code and then runs the machine code version - thus equivalent to what
C/C++ compilers generated. Java has some benefits in the fact that the
Byte Code includes lots of metadata to help the JRE, JIT etc to generate
very optimised machine code. While your application is running, the JRE
can also preempt what is going to be loaded soon, and pre-compiles such
code into optimised machine code too.

Like I said, the Java of today is a far cry from the Java of the 90's!

What is also mind boggling is that you can even run (link) java classes
generated back in the 90's and still use them in your code compiled
today! (without having the original .java files) Backwards compatibly to
the max. :)


Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Noel Frankinet]

When a C++ program is slower than its counterpart in Java, its always
because the C++ implementation is weak.
Java cannot be faster than machine code and a good C++ implementation must
be equivalent to machine code.

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 17:29, Graeme Geldenhuys <
mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk> wrote:

> On 05/02/2019 16:19, Noel Frankinet wrote:
> > Java faster than C++ ?
>
> Yes, it is a common misconception that Java is slow. Just because Java
> from 1995-2000 was slow (some 20+ years ago), doesn't mean the new Java
> of recent years are. In fact, the recent Java is actually really fast
> (in compiling and runtime code). IBM, Sun, Oracle and many more have
> spent billions on $$ in improving Java - and it paid off!
>
> Java is well known for real-time robotics, banking, stock trading etc...
> Performance is vital in all those fields.
>
> What is also massively impressive about Java's compiler, is that it can
> optimise pretty shitty code and still end up with a high performance
> application.
>
>
> Regards,
>   Graeme
>
> --
> fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
> http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/
>
> My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
>
>
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-- 
Noël Frankinet
Strategis sprl
0478/90.92.54
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 05/02/2019 16:19, Noel Frankinet wrote:
> Java faster than C++ ?

Yes, it is a common misconception that Java is slow. Just because Java
from 1995-2000 was slow (some 20+ years ago), doesn't mean the new Java
of recent years are. In fact, the recent Java is actually really fast
(in compiling and runtime code). IBM, Sun, Oracle and many more have
spent billions on $$ in improving Java - and it paid off!

Java is well known for real-time robotics, banking, stock trading etc...
Performance is vital in all those fields.

What is also massively impressive about Java's compiler, is that it can
optimise pretty shitty code and still end up with a high performance
application.


Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Noel Frankinet]

Java faster than C++ ?

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 17:12, Graeme Geldenhuys <
mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk> wrote:

> On 03/02/2019 22:15, code dz wrote:
> > in simple programs yes , fpc may match up c/c++ speed , but in a real
> > world app e.g ( ray tracer )  there is no chance , unless you go down
> > and write assembly .
>
>
> That was my first-hand experience too. I wrote a 3d ray caster for a
> demo/game using FPC (code was made public in the Lazarus forums). No
> matter what was suggested, I couldn't get close to the performance of
> that same program written in C++ or Java. In fact, Java was the fastest
> (by a large margin) out of FPC's Object Pascal, C++, JavaScript and
> Java. FPC was even slower than JavaScript.
>
> I queried that with the FPC team. Their reply... They know FPC is
> lagging in performance, but that is due to their choice. They chose
> maintainability over performance, because they are a small development
> team.
>
> So in my opinion, unless the FPC team grows massively, or there is a
> dedicated developer in the FPC team that works purely on performance,
> nothing is going to change.
>
> Regards,
>   Graeme
>
> --
> fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
> http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/
>
> My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
>
>
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-- 
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0478/90.92.54
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 03/02/2019 22:15, code dz wrote:
> in simple programs yes , fpc may match up c/c++ speed , but in a real
> world app e.g ( ray tracer )  there is no chance , unless you go down
> and write assembly .


That was my first-hand experience too. I wrote a 3d ray caster for a
demo/game using FPC (code was made public in the Lazarus forums). No
matter what was suggested, I couldn't get close to the performance of
that same program written in C++ or Java. In fact, Java was the fastest
(by a large margin) out of FPC's Object Pascal, C++, JavaScript and
Java. FPC was even slower than JavaScript.

I queried that with the FPC team. Their reply... They know FPC is
lagging in performance, but that is due to their choice. They chose
maintainability over performance, because they are a small development team.

So in my opinion, unless the FPC team grows massively, or there is a
dedicated developer in the FPC team that works purely on performance,
nothing is going to change.

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Michael Schnell]

> What about to test it by yourself ? ;-)

Test 
I would just read the documentation ;) ;) ;) 

-Michael



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> But what about mselang on that behalf ? 

What about to test it by yourself ? ;-) 

If you try the alpha2 release, it should be out-of-the-box.
https://github.com/fredvs/mselang/releases

Here MSElang at work:
http://clang-developers.42468.n3.nabble.com/file/t497746/mselang_exec.mp4

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Michael Schnell]

> > Does it really feature coding aware strings ?
> 
> I am not sure to understand what you ask.
> 

In new Delphi and fpc versions, strings are "code aware": e.g. you can define a 
string to hold a dedicated character encoding. E.g.: "MyANSI_String: 
String(CP_ACP);" to define that this variable is to hold characters in the 
default ANSI code of the OS, rather than simply using " MyUTF_String: String;" 
(which is short for " MyUTF_String: String(CP_DEFAULT);" ) and would mean 
UTF-16 encoding with Delphi and UTF-8 encoding with fpc. 

If you now do "MyUTF_String := MyANSI_String;", Delphi or fpc would 
automatically convert the character encoding appropriately. 

But what about mselang on that behalf ? 

Maybe MSEIDE is done in a way that it compiles with fpc  (i.e. UTF-8 strings, 
unless explicitly denoted otherwise), and allows the meslang String paradigm 
(whatever it might be), nonetheless. 

-Michael




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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

@ Michael.

It seems that your last post is empty, is it wanted ?

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Michael Schnell]

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: fredvs 
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Februar 2019 12:37
> An: mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
> Betreff: Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects
> 
> > Does it really feature coding aware strings ?
> 
> I am not sure to understand what you ask.
> 
> If you take a look at /mselang/test/base/string/  you will see (and test if 
> you
> want) that strings are perfectly implemented.
> 
> https://github.com/fredvs/mselang/tree/master/src/test/base/string
> 
> Fre;D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> Does it really feature coding aware strings ? 

I am not sure to understand what you ask.

If you take a look at /mselang/test/base/string/  you will see (and test if
you want) that strings are perfectly implemented.

https://github.com/fredvs/mselang/tree/master/src/test/base/string

Fre;D







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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Michael Schnell]

> MSElang has already implemented {$mode pascal} (similar as objfpc) and
> {$mode mselang} (similar to objfpc + some Oberon flavor).
> 
That is interesting, indeed !

Does it really feature coding aware strings ? 
I had been discussing this with Martin some two years ago. We agreed that the 
way it's implemented in Delphi (and even more inconsistent) in fpc is not at 
all optimal, and he said he would not do new strings in mselang. I did not hear 
any news about this since that time. In fact I wrote an article about a (IMHO) 
more consistent way to implement code aware strings -> 
http://wiki.freepascal.org/not_Delphi_compatible_enhancement_for_Unicode_Support

-Michael



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> Can MSEGUI be compiled using MSELang ? 

MSElang has already implemented {$mode pascal} (similar as objfpc) and
{$mode mselang} (similar to objfpc + some Oberon flavor).

MSEGUI should be compatible with {$mode pascal}.

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Michael Schnell]

> Martin was too much humble.  His mselang project is already very far.

Can MSEGUI be compiled using MSELang ? 

I would be surprised, as Martin did not intend to make MSELang very compatible 
to fpc. E.g. he did not want to implement "new strings" and other "Delphi 
oddities". 

-Michael 



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> AFAIK maelang is not yet complete and it works only for simple cases , 
> at least that's what martin said. 

Martin was too much humble.  His mselang project is already very far.
If you have some free time, please try the alpha2 release:

https://github.com/fredvs/mselang/releases

It should work out of the box. (please read how to install in notes)

>> IMHO, it is not a question of programming language, Pascal does as good
>> as 
>> c/c++ if the good optimizations are used. 

> in simple programs yes , fpc may match up c/c++ speed , but in a real 
> world app e.g ( ray tracer )  there is no chance , unless you go down 
> and write assembly . 

I was talking about a Pascal source compiled with MSElang + LLVM vs a C
source compiled  by Clang + LLVM.

Fre;D





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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[code dz]

>
> Huh, did you try the test + benchmarks of /mselang/test/ ?
>

AFAIK maelang is not yet complete and it works only for simple cases ,
at least that's what martin said.

>
> IMHO, it is not a question of programming language, Pascal does as good as
> c/c++ if the good optimizations are used.
>

in simple programs yes , fpc may match up c/c++ speed , but in a real
world app e.g ( ray tracer )  there is no chance , unless you go down
and write assembly .

the development of fpc is really slow and thats obvious  to every one,
 you may wait the rest of your life and you wont see for example the
version 4  :/


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> programming language is just a tool 
> since you are concerned about floating point optimization , its 
> obvious that c/c++ is leader in that field 

Huh, did you try the test + benchmarks of /mselang/test/ ?

IMHO, it is not a question of programming language, Pascal does as good as
c/c++ if the good optimizations are used.

With mselang, the bit-code (bc file) produced is fully compatible with the
LLVM optimizer (opt) and you will have the same result, like if your source
was in C.

Fre;D
 



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> What do you think about converting Pascal to C?

I am not fan of conversion.
If I have to do a  program in C, I will write it in C from scratch and not
use a converter.

The same for Java to Pas (or Pas to Java), if I need to create a Java or
Android app, I will use native Java tools.

But yes, I love Pascal language and I would be very happy with a Pascal
compiler "Formula 1" that could produce from Pascal source a
race-light-executable, like Clang does with C source.

Fre;D 



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[code dz]

2019-02-03 21:11 UTC+01:00, fredvs :
>> Your death spell for MSEIDE-MSEGUI?
>
> IMHO, MSEIDE-MSEGUI will stay with fpc release 3.0.2 and 3.0.4.
>
> And if one day MSEIDE-MSEGUI does a upgrade concerning compiler, it will be
> to use mselang.
>
> I think that fpc is too much self-centered (why not work with Git?) and
> slave to Delphi.
> And if you propose a bug-fix, it takes years (yes, years) before to receive
> a pretentious comment about some spelling mistake in your explanations.
>
> With last fpc release, with optimization > 1 (-02, -03) ---> crash some of
> my projects.
>
> Each fpc release produces executable bigger and slower, float calculation
> (very important for me) is each time slower too.
>
> Synchronization is still not ok with fpc threads. (fortunately Martin
> offers
> msethread with synchronization ok).
>
> In short, I'm tired of fpc
>
> Fre;D
>

programming language is just a tool , so choose the right tool for the
desired job
since you are concerned about floating point optimization , its
obvious that c/c++ is leader in that field
also if you need nice and quick GUI  , away from bloated (qt,wx)
libraries, there is Dear ImGui , google it , its lightweight and
really fast , and now its widely used by big studios

if you want to make desktop database app , i think and in my opinion
lazarus is perfect choice


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[mohamed hamza]

What do you think about converting Pascal to C?

Med

De : fredvs 
Envoyé : dimanche 3 février 2019 20:11
À : mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

> Your death spell for MSEIDE-MSEGUI?

IMHO, MSEIDE-MSEGUI will stay with fpc release 3.0.2 and 3.0.4.

And if one day MSEIDE-MSEGUI does a upgrade concerning compiler, it will be
to use mselang.

I think that fpc is too much self-centered (why not work with Git?) and
slave to Delphi.
And if you propose a bug-fix, it takes years (yes, years) before to receive
a pretentious comment about some spelling mistake in your explanations.

With last fpc release, with optimization > 1 (-02, -03) ---> crash some of
my projects.

Each fpc release produces executable bigger and slower, float calculation
(very important for me) is each time slower too.

Synchronization is still not ok with fpc threads. (fortunately Martin offers
msethread with synchronization ok).

In short, I'm tired of fpc

Fre;D






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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> Your death spell for MSEIDE-MSEGUI? 

IMHO, MSEIDE-MSEGUI will stay with fpc release 3.0.2 and 3.0.4.

And if one day MSEIDE-MSEGUI does a upgrade concerning compiler, it will be
to use mselang.

I think that fpc is too much self-centered (why not work with Git?) and
slave to Delphi.
And if you propose a bug-fix, it takes years (yes, years) before to receive
a pretentious comment about some spelling mistake in your explanations.

With last fpc release, with optimization > 1 (-02, -03) ---> crash some of
my projects.

Each fpc release produces executable bigger and slower, float calculation
(very important for me) is each time slower too.

Synchronization is still not ok with fpc threads. (fortunately Martin offers
msethread with synchronization ok).

In short, I'm tired of fpc

Fre;D


 



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Sieghard]

Sehr geehrter Herr fredvs,

Sie schrieben am Wed, 30 Jan 2019 06:32:43 -0700 (MST):

> IMHO, the last release of MSEgui/MSEide is "totally finished",
>  all the projects that use it hardly work perfectly here.
> (with a custom fpc 3.0.2 release).
> 
> Now about the "unfinished" part of the symphony, MSElang.
> Maybe it is better to wait 100 years like for the Shubert symphony.
> 
> I will not spent any more energy in the fpc project.
> fpc was a marvelous adventure and gives me fantastic solutions to 
>  migrate some of my Delphi projects to the Unix world.
,,,
> And yes, for me, the question is, now that Martin is gone, should I still
> use Pascal language?
> 
> Fre;D

Your death spell for MSEIDE-MSEGUI?

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Hello.

In mesgui README.TXT:


> MSEide+MSEgui Pascal Cross Platform GUI Development System.

> 2018-11-03 Version 4.6.2
> Copyright (c) 1999-2018 by Martin Schreiber

> - Compiles with FPC 3.0.2 or 3.0.4
> 

Fre;D




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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[code dz]

2019-01-31 16:58 UTC+01:00, Graeme Geldenhuys :
> On 2019-01-31 3:48 p.m., code dz wrote:
>> iam not using msegui anymore , iam just mention that it doesn't work
>> with fpc trunk
>
>
> Just curious, what exactly is the compiler error message?
>
>
> Regards,
>   Graeme
>
> --
> fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
> http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/
>
> My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
>
>
> ___
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msegraphedits.pas(126,19) Error: No matching implementation for
interface method "getdefaultifilink:iificlient;


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2019-01-31 3:48 p.m., code dz wrote:
> iam not using msegui anymore , iam just mention that it doesn't work
> with fpc trunk


Just curious, what exactly is the compiler error message?


Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[code dz]

2019-01-31 16:30 UTC+01:00, Patrick Goupell :
>
>> fpc 3.0.4 works fine , the problem is with fpc 3.3.1
>>
>>
>
> SO why use something that does not work?
>
> Patrick
>

iam not using msegui anymore , iam just mention that it doesn't work
with fpc trunk


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Patrick Goupell]

fpc 3.0.4 works fine , the problem is with fpc 3.3.1




SO why use something that does not work?

Patrick



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2019-01-31 2:31 p.m., code dz wrote:
> the problem is with fpc 3.3.1

I don't know what Martin's thoughts was, but mine (for fpGUI Toolkit)
was that FPC trunk is a moving target. Nothing is cast in stone until a
RC release branch is made. So up to then FPC trunk is a toybox of ideas.
I personally do not spend any time getting fpGUI to compile with FPC
trunk, but only with the RC branches and actual release versions.
Anything else was a waste of my time. I might fix compilation issues
today with say generics, and tomorrow they decide to follow Delphi down
the hill and break everything again!

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[code dz]

2019-01-31 14:09 UTC+01:00, Patrick Goupell :
>
> On 1/31/19 7:25 AM, fredvs wrote:
>>> did you try compile msegui/ide with fpc trunk ?
>> AFAIK, msegui/ide can be compiled with fpc <= 3.0.4.
>>
>> I did try to compile some msegui projects with fpc 3.1.1..
>>
>> It was ok for Windows but fails for Unix.
>>
>
> I run fpc 3.0.4 on 64 bit linux, debian stretch with no problems.
>
> I download and compile it from source as I compile for both 32 and 64
> bit for linux and windows
>
> Patrick
>

fpc 3.0.4 works fine , the problem is with fpc 3.3.1


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Patrick Goupell]

On 1/31/19 7:25 AM, fredvs wrote:

did you try compile msegui/ide with fpc trunk ?

AFAIK, msegui/ide can be compiled with fpc <= 3.0.4.

I did try to compile some msegui projects with fpc 3.1.1..

It was ok for Windows but fails for Unix.



I run fpc 3.0.4 on 64 bit linux, debian stretch with no problems.

I download and compile it from source as I compile for both 32 and 64 
bit for linux and windows


Patrick



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> What do you think if we translate MseIde-MseGui to  an other  language .

http://mseide-msegui-talk.13964.n8.nabble.com/MSEide-MSEgui-talk-MSE-Programing-Pass-Book-tp1238p1336.html



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> did you try compile msegui/ide with fpc trunk ? 

AFAIK, msegui/ide can be compiled with fpc <= 3.0.4.

I did try to compile some msegui projects with fpc 3.1.1..

It was ok for Windows but fails for Unix.

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Roland Chastain]

Hello! I could contribute to a french translation.

 

Regards.

 

Roland

 

Envoyé: mercredi 30 janvier 2019 à 17:47
De: "mohamed hamza" 
À: "General list for MSEide+MSEgui" 
Objet: Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects



Hi all,

   What do you think if we translate MseIde-MseGui to  an other  language .

 

How hard is this project  :



	Possibilities
	Time consumming   
	Earnings



 


De : code dz 
Envoyé : mercredi 30 janvier 2019 16:14
À : General list for MSEide+MSEgui
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

 



@ferd
did you try compile msegui/ide with fpc trunk ?
last time (last week) i got alots of errors


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Alexey Loginov]

Hi,

It was translated already on Russian:
https://pkgs.org/download/mseide-msegui
https://pkgs.org/download/mseide-msegui-i18n

It's hard. Msei18n is stupid and is not workable.
I told to Martin, that msei18n does not work, but he did not fix it. So
needs to rewrite this tool first to keep original string and translated
strings together.
But I have algorithm how to improve translation process without msei18n by
PO files without gettext.
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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[mohamed hamza]

Hi all,
   What do you think if we translate MseIde-MseGui to  an other  language .

How hard is this project  :

  1.  Possibilities
  2.  Time consumming
  3.  Earnings


De : code dz 
Envoyé : mercredi 30 janvier 2019 16:14
À : General list for MSEide+MSEgui
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

@ferd
did you try compile msegui/ide with fpc trunk ?
last time (last week) i got alots of errors


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[code dz]

@ferd
did you try compile msegui/ide with fpc trunk ?
last time (last week) i got alots of errors


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> Did someone carry on the "unfinished symphony" of  frank shubert ? 

It depends of what you are considering of "unfinished " in the Martin'
symphony.

IMHO, the last release of MSEgui/MSEide is "totally finished",
 all the projects that use it hardly work perfectly here.
(with a custom fpc 3.0.2 release).

Now about the "unfinished" part of the symphony, MSElang.
Maybe it is better to wait 100 years like for the Shubert symphony.

I will not spent any more energy in the fpc project.
fpc was a marvelous adventure and gives me fantastic solutions to 
 migrate some of my Delphi projects to the Unix world.

But times has changed, Java is the king and ARM processors win.
And for native libraries or executables, float calculation is the norm.
Optimization is a must and needs lot of human resource to update it
continually.
fpc cannot compete with projects like LLVM who is the future now.
Even Google Chrome choose it (and add all of his power).

Till now only C language is proposed (with Clang) for LLVM.
The migration of all my C++ projects (that used gcc) was out-of-the-box.

For me the only thing that could remain me with Pascal language is a
integration with LLVM.
The fpc-LLVM is not on the right way and inherit of all the fpc'bugs.

The "unacheved" MSElang/LLVM symphony is already playing tuned, without any
comparison with the fpc one.
It produces valid native bit code files, ready to use for the LLVM compiler. 

And yes, for me, the question is, now that Martin is gone, should I still
use Pascal language?

Fre;D





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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

> Did someone carry on the "unfinished symphony" of  frank shubert ?

Yes, Frank Merrick finished the symphony 100 years after the death of Frank
Shubert (1822).

What is the goal of your intervention?

Fre;D




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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[mohamed hamza]

Hi  all,

  Did someone carry on the "unfinished symphony" of  frank shubert ?

Best Regards.

De : Graeme Geldenhuys 
Envoyé : mardi 29 janvier 2019 15:38
À : mseide-msegui-talk@lists.sourceforge.net
Objet : Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

On 29/01/2019 15:22, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>https://github.com/organizations/new
>
> I would imagine Gitlab and other git service providers has something
> similar.


Yet another alternative is to NOT rely on 3rd party git providers (and
all the legal issues that come with it), but rather host everything
yourself - if somebody has a public server for the MSEide+MSEgui
project. ie: similar to what FPC and Lazarus are doing. Then only use
SourceForge or Github etc as mirror repos. More than one developer in
the team has access to the server to manage the repos, mailing lists etc.

There are plenty of excellent open source products you can use to make
this whole git project hosting process really simple. I tried and used
many various such open source products - let me know if I must supply
some recommendations. Again, I'm also considering this for fpGUI Toolkit
too.

If this sounds like a better path to follow (alternatives to Gitlabs,
Github etc), I am willing to offer my server to help host the
MSEide+MSEgui project. But note, I'll provide access to my server, set
up the hosting service, but it is up to you all to select project
managers, manage and develop MSEide+MSEgui.


Regards,
  Graeme

--
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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 29/01/2019 12:37, fredvs wrote:
> By the way, why use 2 source-managers, is GitLab not enough ? 

As far as I know (from my discussions with Martin), there was some
issues with SourceForge at one point. They blocked certain countries,
and they had some Git service outages. Both Martin and I didn't like
that. So Martin set up a GitLab account which he believed was hosted
outside of the USA (so no blocked countries rubbish). But he kept the
SourceForge repo because the mailing list was set up there, and its not
possible (or easy) to migrate that and all users to a new mailing list.

>From Patrick's message, it seems Gitlab is going to play hard-ball due
to privacy concerns. So indeed, maybe now is a good time to move
everything (repo, bug tracker and mailing list) to a new service
provider - a service where more that one person at least holds the keys,
so you don't get into this situation again (I'm considering the same for
my fpGUI project now).

GitHub is good, but not sure for how long - since Microsoft bought them.
Maybe all will be well. Either way, Github supports
Team/Group/Organization accounts were multiple people can manage a open
source project (price is FREE for open source projects).

   https://github.com/organizations/new

I would imagine Gitlab and other git service providers has something
similar.

ps:
  One thing I'm not sure of... I don't think Github has a mailing list
  or NNTP newsgroup service for a project. I could be wrong, I haven't
  checked in a very long time. Maybe one of you know the answer to this?

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp


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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Re-hello, sorry I did noy see his:

> Was there a message from Martin's family that they had found some login
> usernames / passwords for the ms projects?

Yes, there was that message but, AFAIK, it seems that it was the password of
Source-Forge but not of GitLab (or reverse). 

By the way, why use 2 source-managers, is GitLab not enough ? 

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Hello Pat.

Thanks.

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Patrick Goupell]

On 1/27/19 7:11 AM, fredvs wrote:


Like you know, I am volunteer to help (but terrorized by git).



Hello All,

I sent a contact message to gitlab as follows:

-

Hello,

The owner of the project at https://gitlab.com/mseide-msegui, set up by 
Martin Schreiber (msei1) died Nov 29, 2018.


We, the users of this project, want to know how we can get a new owner / 
developer assigned to this account.


JPlease let us know what we need to do to accomplish this.

Thank you,

Patrick Goupell




I got the following response:

--

Hello Patrick,

Thank you for reaching out to GitLab.com support. I'm so sorry for your 
loss and understand this must be a difficult time. We would like to 
assist in moving your project forward but also need to respect the 
security and privacy standards we have in place.


While we cannot make account changes without legal intervention in lieu 
of a request by the account owner, you can however fork the project(s) 
into a new namespace since they are public. This will be the quickest 
and easiest way forward.


Please let us know if you have any additional questions.

Thanks,

Amanda Rueda
GitLab, Inc.

---


Fred,

Was there a message from Martin's family that they had found some login 
usernames / passwords for the ms projects?


Do we want to fork the project or try some other solution?

Patrick

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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Hello.

> Do you hve login username / password info for the accounts at giylab 

I have a username-account for mse_sak (the voice assistive kit).
But it does not give access to all.

In https://sourceforge.net/projects/mseide-msegui/

At line 3, I see: 

"Brought to you by: den_jean, mse1"

Who is "den_jean" ?  Maybe he has full access.

Pat, if you are volunteer, it is perfect.

You are the only one registered in
https://gitlab.com/mseide-msegui/mseide-msegui/project_members

Like you know, I am volunteer to help (but terrorized by git).

Fre;D



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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[Patrick Goupell]

On 1/24/19 7:33 AM, fredvs wrote:

Hello Alexey.

Thanks to take care about MSE projects.

Like I explained before, I am volunteer to help the maximum I can.

But, sadly, I am not a Git guru and have difficult access to Internet.

My science about GitHub resume to 3 commands:

$ git add --all
$ git commit --all
$ git push --all

For me the simpler would be that a git-guru take control of Martin site and,
like I do for other project, when I have something to propose, from my
cloned GitHub site I do a "Pull Request".

But, like I said, I am not a Git-guru so I am totally open for all
propositions/trick.



Fred,

Do you hve login username / password info for the accounts at giylab - 
https://gitlab.com/mseide-msegui, sourceforge - 
https://mseide-msegui.sourceforge.io/ and the mailing list?


We should have more than one person with access to the accounts.

I am willing to volunteer for that.  If a third or fourth person wants 
to also be a keeper of the keys speak up.


This is not meant that you would be a maintainer of the software.  It is 
just to prevent us from getting locked out of the accounts if only one 
person has login access.


Patrick





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Re: [MSEide-MSEgui-talk] Destiny of Martin's projects

[fredvs]

Hello Graeme.

Sorry I did not see your post.

I totally agree with you (but do not have the skill to do it by myself).

Fre;D



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