Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
At 20:10 24/07/99 +0200, you wrote: >> | >But maybe sooner then you think :-) >> | >> | Well, ask Ricardo about it... Only he really knows. >> >> Let's just stay a little more patient.. hehe.. It will come when it's >> ready... > >Ah... This sounds like top-secret information unleashed!!! > A new version of BrMSX which can be able to emulate a MSX 2.0. It isn't a secret indeed... Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | After B5... Phrase found painted in a wall in Brasilia: "Remember Biri" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
>If Apple can produce a power-pc based machine that is 100% compatible with a >classic 68000 based machine by EMULATING the 68000, then why should it be >impossible to make a 100% MSX compatible machine using a modern CPU that uses >software emulation of the Z80? As far as I know, the 68000 is more powerfull >then the Z80. Yet, the powermac executes classic 68000-based macintosh >software faster then the 68000 based mac. We do not need, in almost all cases, faster execution, but real execution on the same time as an MSX do that task. This is not to easy to acomplish, but it's possible. But remember that a PowerMac is VERY expensive, and AFAIK this is not the way we want the new MSX. I think it's more wise a new computer, that works in a similar way, with a daughter board of "compatibility". This would be better. (-: []'s Daniel Caetano Speed kills! (Microsoft's Windows publicity slogan) +---+ |[EMAIL PROTECTED] -www.os2brasil.com.br/novidades/drivers.shtml| |www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8752/ - www.os2brasil.com.br/novidades/| +---+ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
] Ok, if I really don't notice it's using software-emulation... Maybe. ] But even only the knowledge it's software-emulation gives me the creeps... ] I don't think a perfect software-emulation can be done, you will at least ] need a hell of a processor for it. And if you want to use the new features ] of this 'new' MSX, when the code won't be Z80-code (otherwise at least ] CPU-emulation wouldn't have been nessacary). I don't think that a machine ] which is backwards compatible with MSX but has other native code can still ] be called an MSX. If Apple can produce a power-pc based machine that is 100% compatible with a classic 68000 based machine by EMULATING the 68000, then why should it be impossible to make a 100% MSX compatible machine using a modern CPU that uses software emulation of the Z80? As far as I know, the 68000 is more powerfull then the Z80. Yet, the powermac executes classic 68000-based macintosh software faster then the 68000 based mac. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
] > Below, you can find the registersettings needed to reproduce the opll ] > hardware instruments on an OPL1. With thanks to Bernard Lamers and Hans ] > Guijt for this information: ] > ] > Nr Register settingsName ] ] Are these extracted from the OPLL chip (they are not in the msx-music ] rom afaik) or are these approximations? These are extracted from the official documentation. So no approximations. ] ] > For most fm-pac based games, you don't hear any difference between a real ] > MSX and fMSX amiga! ] ] Also if you play, say, the Microcabin bgms (which use some ] strange OPLL tricks)? I don't know. Don't have an amiga on my desk. I will check this out with Hans Guijt, who is the author of fMSX Amiga. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
| > | Well, ask Ricardo about it... Only he really knows. | > | > Let's just stay a little more patient.. hehe.. It will come when it's | > ready... | | Ah... This sounds like top-secret information unleashed!!! Just guess three times what all this is about... Greetz, Arnaud Go visit the MSX Emulator Page (M.E.P.) http://www.mep.msxnet.org http://surf.to/msxemu http://www.casema.net/~tfh ICQ:1446 MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> | >But maybe sooner then you think :-) > | > | Well, ask Ricardo about it... Only he really knows. > > Let's just stay a little more patient.. hehe.. It will come when it's > ready... Ah... This sounds like top-secret information unleashed!!! ~Grauw -- >< email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX fair Bussum / MSX Marathon homepage: http://msxfair.cjb.net/ >< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
| > | >But maybe sooner then you think :-) | | Well, ask Ricardo about it... Only he really knows. Let's just stay a little more patient.. hehe.. It will come when it's ready... Greetz, Arnie Go visit the MSX Emulator Page (M.E.P.) http://www.mep.msxnet.org http://surf.to/msxemu http://www.casema.net/~tfh ICQ:1446 MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
At 18:55 21/07/99 +0200, you wrote: >| >ahum, does it run Unknown Reality from NOP ?? especially the vertical >| >screensplit. >| >Ha, thought so >| >| Not YET! > >But maybe sooner then you think :-) Well, ask Ricardo about it... Only he really knows. Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | After B5... Phrase found painted in a wall in Brasilia: "Remember Biri" MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
>Hmmm... :) MSX1 VDP is part of MSX1 standard... V9938 is >part of MSX2 standard. V9938 is backwards compatible with >MSX1 VDP, but has other native code (it can run opcodes, >while MSX1 VDP can't -- does it can?). But... MSX2 is called >an MSX. `:) >Funny, isn't it? ;) Well... backward compatible means that the new must do, at least (but not only) all the things that the previous do. []'s Daniel Caetano MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
| >ahum, does it run Unknown Reality from NOP ?? especially the vertical | >screensplit. | >Ha, thought so | | Not YET! But maybe sooner then you think :-) Go visit the MSX Emulator Page (M.E.P.) http://www.mep.msxnet.org http://surf.to/msxemu http://www.casema.net/~tfh ICQ:1446 MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
>> For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try >> BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... >ahum, does it run Unknown Reality from NOP ?? especially the vertical >screensplit. >Ha, thought so Not YET! (-: But it will run any MSX1 program, even those bizarre demos. Some day we will see BrMSX playing Illucion City and Fray TR... (-: Just get BrMSX and push NumLock (to disable timing control) and you will see HOW FAST a MSX emulator can be. But I preffer the REAL MSX... Because I like it, and not because never will exist perfect emulation! (-: []'s Daniel Caetano MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
| ahum, does it run Unknown Reality from NOP ?? especially the vertical | screensplit. | Ha, thought so Please read carfully before making stupid remarks... BrMSX is only MSX-1 Greetz, Arnaud MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
AW: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Hi there, >It also has a wave-channel, but it has very small sample-ram, if I'm correct >(I'm not sure about this). Anyways, the samples you hear most of the time >sound crappy. Yes! A friend of mine had a Sega Megadrive and he was playing F1 Racer (or something like that). You could hear "Final Lap", but I understood "Final Crap", and when I said that, he became very annoyed... He used to have an MSX and we were not very happy with him buying a different computer. Grtz Coen MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Tristan wrote: > > > then why did Konami prog for the Snes??? :)) > > Konami did games for both Sega and Nintendo .it was a joke... > > D-KC COULD have used 2 OPL's and hardwire them left and right.. Did he use > > OPL's anyway? I can imagine someone using a dsp or a normal processor > > instead...(and do an emulation!) > > No it's a standard OPLL feature. It has 2 outputs. Output one is the > first 6 channels, output two is the remaining 3 channels (or drums). tnx for the info.. greetz akai MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
SFG-05 / CX-5M Was: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Manuel Bilderbeek wrote: > > Eric...! You're doing it again! ;-)) (This is so typical! ;-DDD) > > > Eric (would love to own a DX-7, btw ;-)) > > You once wondered if the SFG-05 in my Yamaha CX-5M is a DX-7. Can anyone shed > a light on this? > > By the way, is there any program for Yamaha CX-5M, NOT written by Yamaha? It > is a really cool FM-synth, that SFG-05! 4 operator! Yummie! > > And I guess the only way to use it is by inserting original Yamaha carts? > > Grtjs, Manuel ((m)ICQ UIN 41947405) Hm... Isn't the SFG-5 based on the OPM (YM2151/Y3014) FM synth chipset ? I have some of these babies here and I want to play with them Does anyone here have technical info about SFG-05/CX-5M hardware & software ??? Also would be great to get a copy of the software (again , someone gave me a copy , but I lost in a hard disk crash some time ago ... ) Cya MSXers ... MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> then why did Konami prog for the Snes??? :)) Konami did games for both Sega and Nintendo > D-KC COULD have used 2 OPL's and hardwire them left and right.. Did he use > OPL's anyway? I can imagine someone using a dsp or a normal processor > instead...(and do an emulation!) No it's a standard OPLL feature. It has 2 outputs. Output one is the first 6 channels, output two is the remaining 3 channels (or drums). Tristan + Omega + join #msx on undernet +[EMAIL PROTECTED]+ | | FUNET MSX maintainer | ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/msx | + irc: OmegaMSX +Techno composer+ http://users.bart.nl/~omegamsx + MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> You once wondered if the SFG-05 in my Yamaha CX-5M is a DX-7. Can anyone shed > a light on this? could be... > By the way, is there any program for Yamaha CX-5M, NOT written by Yamaha? It > is a really cool FM-synth, that SFG-05! 4 operator! Yummie! nope CX-5M != DX-7... dx-7 has 6 operators greetz akai [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> > FM is actually quite simple... you take one wave and multiply it with > another > > to change the sound... > > Eh, in principle, yes. I guess it becomes more complicated as soon as you > start > doing things like feedback :-) yeah, you're right... but i suppose the feedback is digital as well so it would be done every cycle or every xx cycle or someting... this can be emulated as well -> put the last output in a buffer and add it to the signal next time you calculate it.. It would be nice if someone came up with a block diagram of the OPL ... then you could easily see where the signal is looped > >yeah, but megadrive didn't have an FM chip, did it? > > Dunno, I thought it had some kind of SCC like thingie... then why did Konami prog for the Snes??? :)) > > BTW, I own a FM-PAC made by Digital-KC which has an earphone out connector, > which has the drum sound on one side and the music sounds on the other. > Does that mean that the OPL has two separate outputs, or is it just a > filter processing the sound afterwards? (drums = relative high freq, so > a set of low/high pass filters could do the trick). I always wondered... I dont think that a filter would do the trick.. .. you can easily check if it's a filter by making a drum-like sound in (let's say) moonblaster and see if it pans to the oter side... the more i think about it the more it seems illogical... drums are noisy and noise is a spectrum so that means that there must be sounds that would automatically (partially) pan to the drum side when they operate on the drums spectrum. And the kick-drum is quite low (ground freq. somewhere between 80 and 140 Hz) so this would mean that a baseline and a kick-drum would be panned equally.. does this still make sense? (to me it does ;) D-KC COULD have used 2 OPL's and hardwire them left and right.. Did he use OPL's anyway? I can imagine someone using a dsp or a normal processor instead...(and do an emulation!) > Eric (would love to own a DX-7, btw ;-)) me too!...me too greetz akai [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> > I mentioned this to indicate that OPL2 is not a full superset of OPL1. By > > the way, I think it wouldn't be too hard to emulate ADPCM using PCM, > > especially since Alex Wulms published conversion routines. I know Yobi > > succesfully used those to play MWK files on the MoonSound. > > The MSX-Audio chip is NOT OPL1!!! > > The Y-8950 is an MSX LSI, just like the V-9938 and the MSX-Engines. > It's copyrighted by ASCII, Microsoft and Yamaha. The MSX-Audio > contains not only an OPL! but also A/D converter, memory logic, ADPCM > parts. There is an external D/A converter (Y-3014) for the chip's > combined 12 bit or so output, like the OPL3 has. The Music Module has > another D/A converter (which has nothing to do with MSX-Audio). Anyways it is fully OPL1 compatible, with an additional ADPCM-decoder. By the way, the Toshiba MusicModule contains the same chip, however without SampleRAM (??? for god's sake, why???), and the Yamaha MusicModule contains an OPL1 (it even hasn't got a sample-unit). > p.s. why are we talking about OPLx in every thread now? ??? dunno... ~Grauw -- >><< email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 Visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ ... Live long and prosper... >><< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
RE: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> I mentioned this to indicate that OPL2 is not a full superset of OPL1. By > the way, I think it wouldn't be too hard to emulate ADPCM using PCM, > especially since Alex Wulms published conversion routines. I know Yobi > succesfully used those to play MWK files on the MoonSound. The MSX-Audio chip is NOT OPL1!!! The Y-8950 is an MSX LSI, just like the V-9938 and the MSX-Engines. It's copyrighted by ASCII, Microsoft and Yamaha. The MSX-Audio contains not only an OPL! but also A/D converter, memory logic, ADPCM parts. There is an external D/A converter (Y-3014) for the chip's combined 12 bit or so output, like the OPL3 has. The Music Module has another D/A converter (which has nothing to do with MSX-Audio). p.s. why are we talking about OPLx in every thread now? Tristan + Omega + join #msx on undernet +[EMAIL PROTECTED]+ | | FUNET MSX maintainer | ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/msx | + irc: OmegaMSX +Techno composer+ http://users.bart.nl/~omegamsx + MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> > (And, AFAIK, OPL3 = 2xOPL2 - one for left and one for right :-)) > > Except for the drum part, which is mono AFAIK. <:) OPL3 channels are settable to left, right or center You can check that in MBFM Tristan + Omega + join #msx on undernet +[EMAIL PROTECTED]+ | | FUNET MSX maintainer | ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/msx | + irc: OmegaMSX +Techno composer+ http://users.bart.nl/~omegamsx + MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> > BTW, I own a FM-PAC made by Digital-KC which has an earphone out connector, > > which has the drum sound on one side and the music sounds on the other. > > Does that mean that the OPL has two separate outputs, or is it just a > > filter processing the sound afterwards? (drums = relative high freq, so > > a set of low/high pass filters could do the trick). I always wondered... > > It really has two separate outputs... Or perhaps > there are two versions of the chip. Leonard, help > me! :) Ahhh... The FM-Stereo-Pak. I've got one too, yes. It really sucks, those two outputs, sounds crappy when having drums on the right, music on the left. PSG was on both channels by the way. And if you haven't got a mixer, you can't use the MSX-Audio + MSX-Music stereo-'effect' a lot of musicdiscs featured. But the quality of the sound was good. Can't say that about my Korean FM-SHIP. ~Grauw -- >><< email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 Visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ ... Live long and prosper... >><< MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> >> Emulators like KGen (Megadrive/Genesis) use this > >> technology. > > > >yeah, but megadrive didn't have an FM chip, did it? > > I thought it had. It definately has. That's why the sound of KGEN sounds so much different (I have to say: better) compared to Genecyst. It also has an FM-Chip with fixed voices, just like the FM-Pac. It also has a wave-channel, but it has very small sample-ram, if I'm correct (I'm not sure about this). Anyways, the samples you hear most of the time sound crappy. ~Grauw MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
> > Hans Guijt has used this information to emulate the fm-pac on fMSX amiga, > > using the OPL3 of an amiga sound extension card. > > For most fm-pac based games, you don't hear any difference between a real MSX > > and fMSX amiga! > > This is pretty cool. I wished fMSX-DOS had this > sound quality. <:) What about the drum samples? > Do they sound the same? The drum presets are still included, even in the OPL4. So you won't need to retrieve any special settings like with the OPLL hardware voices to emulate them, they are already in the OPL1/2/3/4. - MSX-Music (FM-PAC, etc.) is OPLL, featuring 15 preset 'hardware'-voices and 1 'software'-voice. - MSX Audio (Philips/Toshiba/Yamaha MusicModule) is OPL1 + external D/A converter - MoonSound is OPL4, featuring internal D/A converter - SoundBlaster is OPL2 (not sure 'bout that; could be OPL1) + external DMA D/A converter - SoundBlaster Pro first series is OPL2 + external DMA D/A converter - SoundBlaster Pro second series is OPL3 + external DMA D/A converter - SoundBlaster 16 is OPL3 + external DMA D/A converter All Adlib(=soundblaster)-compatible soundcards can emulater OPL1 to OPL3, depending on which SoundBlaster card they can emulate (most can emulate a SoundBlaster 16). ~Grauw MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
RE: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
At 01:36 PM 7/16/99 +0200, you wrote: >>btw... didn't the soundblaster 16 have an OPL3 or OPL4? > >OPL3, just like the SBpro. The difference between SBpro and SB16 lies >in the A/D-D/A part, which is 8-bit in the SBpro and (oh wonder ;-)) >16-bit in the SB16. Early SB-Pro's had 2x OPL2... >(And, AFAIK, OPL3 = 2xOPL2 - one for left and one for right :-)) No, it's not equivalent. On OPL3, every channel can be output to any out of 4 outputs (although most cards only use 2 of those). So if you want to produce mono sound, OPL3 gives you 18 channels and dual OPL2 only 9 channels. Also, the OPL3 support 4-operator voices, which reduces the number of channels but enables more complex instruments. About ADPCM: I mentioned this to indicate that OPL2 is not a full superset of OPL1. By the way, I think it wouldn't be too hard to emulate ADPCM using PCM, especially since Alex Wulms published conversion routines. I know Yobi succesfully used those to play MWK files on the MoonSound. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
"Boon, Eric" wrote: > (And, AFAIK, OPL3 = 2xOPL2 - one for left and one for right :-)) Except for the drum part, which is mono AFAIK. <:) > BTW, I own a FM-PAC made by Digital-KC which has an earphone out connector, > which has the drum sound on one side and the music sounds on the other. > Does that mean that the OPL has two separate outputs, or is it just a > filter processing the sound afterwards? (drums = relative high freq, so > a set of low/high pass filters could do the trick). I always wondered... It really has two separate outputs... Or perhaps there are two versions of the chip. Leonard, help me! :) []s, Parn MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: AW: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Coen van der Geest wrote: > >yeah, but megadrive didn't have an FM chip, did it? > I thought it had. It has. `:) I think it's a custom model made by Yamaha for Sega, but Leonard knows a lot more on this subject. Megadrive has a 10-chan- nel hardware polyphony, with 6 FM sound chan- nels, 3 PSG sound channels and 1 PCM sound channel. []s, Parn MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> > i challange you to name one analouge signal processing step in the fm-pac > > The amps... > > > (except for any amps) > > Oh, sorry ;-) Eric...! You're doing it again! ;-)) (This is so typical! ;-DDD) > Eric (would love to own a DX-7, btw ;-)) You once wondered if the SFG-05 in my Yamaha CX-5M is a DX-7. Can anyone shed a light on this? By the way, is there any program for Yamaha CX-5M, NOT written by Yamaha? It is a really cool FM-synth, that SFG-05! 4 operator! Yummie! And I guess the only way to use it is by inserting original Yamaha carts? Grtjs, Manuel ((m)ICQ UIN 41947405) PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
RE: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
>btw... didn't the soundblaster 16 have an OPL3 or OPL4? OPL3, just like the SBpro. The difference between SBpro and SB16 lies in the A/D-D/A part, which is 8-bit in the SBpro and (oh wonder ;-)) 16-bit in the SB16. (And, AFAIK, OPL3 = 2xOPL2 - one for left and one for right :-)) > i challange you to name one analouge signal processing step in the fm-pac The amps... > (except for any amps) Oh, sorry ;-) > FM is actually quite simple... you take one wave and multiply it with another > to change the sound... Eh, in principle, yes. I guess it becomes more complicated as soon as you start doing things like feedback :-) >yeah, but megadrive didn't have an FM chip, did it? Dunno, I thought it had some kind of SCC like thingie... BTW, I own a FM-PAC made by Digital-KC which has an earphone out connector, which has the drum sound on one side and the music sounds on the other. Does that mean that the OPL has two separate outputs, or is it just a filter processing the sound afterwards? (drums = relative high freq, so a set of low/high pass filters could do the trick). I always wondered... Eric (would love to own a DX-7, btw ;-)) MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
AW: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Hi there, >a fmpac cannot be emulated on ANY d/a convertor... D/A yes... sorry, I typed it wrong, I was kind of tired then :-) I agree with the above BTW, that was what I was trying to say. But I've learned that FM is digital now, I thought it was a between form of Digital and Analogue. Learn something every day keeps the doctor away! >> Emulators like KGen (Megadrive/Genesis) use this >> technology. > >yeah, but megadrive didn't have an FM chip, did it? I thought it had. >> BTW: I love emulators. Great hobby. > >If i ever found some time i'm sure i'd be doing emulators as well... :)) Altavista search: time. I'm sure you will find some time there :-) :-) Grtz Coen MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
> Below, you can find the registersettings needed to reproduce the opll > hardware instruments on an OPL1. With thanks to Bernard Lamers and Hans > Guijt for this information: > > Nr Register settingsName Are these extracted from the OPLL chip (they are not in the msx-music rom afaik) or are these approximations? > For most fm-pac based games, you don't hear any difference between a real > MSX and fMSX amiga! Also if you play, say, the Microcabin bgms (which use some strange OPLL tricks)? Tristan + Omega + join #msx on undernet +[EMAIL PROTECTED]+ | | FUNET MSX maintainer | ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/msx | + irc: OmegaMSX +Techno composer+ http://users.bart.nl/~omegamsx + MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
] Alex Wulms wrote: ] > Differences are minor. In general, you can say ] > that the OPL1 is a superset of the OPLL. There ] > are only two functions which the OPLL has but ] > which the OPL1 does not have: ] ] Anyway, this was my point. `:) I didn't say that ] OPL1 couldn't emulate OPLL (just making sure I ] was not misunderstood). In fact, I don't see why ] we couldn't actually improve the quality of the ] presets via emulation. fMSX-DOS could do this ] using General MIDI, if we could customize the ] way it assigns MIDI patches and the drumkit. ] ] (...) ] > Hans Guijt has used this information to emulate the fm-pac on fMSX amiga, ] > using the OPL3 of an amiga sound extension card. ] > For most fm-pac based games, you don't hear any difference between a real MSX ] > and fMSX amiga! ] ] This is pretty cool. I wished fMSX-DOS had this ] sound quality. <:) What about the drum samples? ] Do they sound the same? The FM drums of the 6/5 mode in the OPLL are exactly the same as the FM drums of the 6/5 mode of the OPL1 and compatibles (like OPL2, OPL3, OPL4, ...) Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
] On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, AkA DanSHakU wrote: ] ] > > Second, AFAIK that OPL is not equal to the OPLL used on ] > > the FM-PAC (MSX-Music). I know of no way to create the OPLL hardware ] > > voices on an OPLx chip, unless there is some way to extracht OPL data ] > > for these voices from the OPLL. ] > ] > do a romdump of the fm-pac ] ] You can get a romdump of the original FMPAC cartridge in ] http://www.lsi.usp.br/~ricardo/brmsxdl.htm A romdump won't help you much. The instrument definitions are hardcoded in the OPLL chip. Not in the ROM. Anyway, the instrument definitions have also been published in one of the MSX datapacks. You can find exact details in some other message of me on the mailinglist. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
Pablo Vasques Bravo-Villalba wrote: > > AkA DanSHakU wrote: > > Wasn't OPLL the LANGUAGE to program the opl in the pac?.. > > No way! :) It's a soundchip by Yamaha. Ok... my mistake... just got a bit confused... i thought that OPL1 was the chip and OPLL was the BASIC language...sigh...it's been so long ago.. sigh... > To program the OPLL you use its sound > registers, which are ultimately set by > some ML* program. <:) yeah,yeah...i know... i used to design fm sounds.. (AAARRRGHHH).. :)) greetz akai MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
AkA DanSHakU wrote: > Wasn't OPLL the LANGUAGE to program the opl in the pac?.. No way! :) It's a soundchip by Yamaha. To program the OPLL you use its sound registers, which are ultimately set by some ML* program. <:) You could create a music in Basic, but it's the macrolanguage interpreter (in ML, of course) who really program the OPLL. []s, Parn * machine language. I don't know if this has the same meaning outside Brazil... <:) MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: Black boxes (Was "Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing")
Maurizio wrote: > > Take some black boxes. > > Give the same imput to all the boxes. > > Watch the outputs. > > If the output is the same for all the boxes, the boxes are identical > regardless what there is inside each one. good...now we only need a keyboard, tv-out and tv emulator :) grtz akai [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
Wasn't OPLL the LANGUAGE to program the opl in the pac?.. greetz akai [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
Alex Wulms wrote: > Differences are minor. In general, you can say > that the OPL1 is a superset of the OPLL. There > are only two functions which the OPLL has but > which the OPL1 does not have: Anyway, this was my point. `:) I didn't say that OPL1 couldn't emulate OPLL (just making sure I was not misunderstood). In fact, I don't see why we couldn't actually improve the quality of the presets via emulation. fMSX-DOS could do this using General MIDI, if we could customize the way it assigns MIDI patches and the drumkit. (...) > Hans Guijt has used this information to emulate the fm-pac on fMSX amiga, > using the OPL3 of an amiga sound extension card. > For most fm-pac based games, you don't hear any difference between a real MSX > and fMSX amiga! This is pretty cool. I wished fMSX-DOS had this sound quality. <:) What about the drum samples? Do they sound the same? []s, Parn MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
Tristan wrote: > > > Each and every ad-lib compatible soundcard can emulate FM Pac and FM-part > > of music module, since the ad-lib contains the OPL1 FM-Chip. Each sound > > blaster compatible soundcard can emulate FM Pac, FM-part of music module > > and ADPCM part of music module, since the soundblaster contains both the > > OPL1 and a DA converter. > > This is only partly true. First, the OPL chip used on ADLIBs is not > called OPL1. Yeah, but does it have the same operators?... i think it does..(allthough i never checked) > Second, AFAIK that OPL is not equal to the OPLL used on > the FM-PAC (MSX-Music). I know of no way to create the OPLL hardware > voices on an OPLx chip, unless there is some way to extracht OPL data > for these voices from the OPLL. do a romdump of the fm-pac > However, the sound of OPLL songs played through OPLx compatible FM > chips is _almost_ the same. this is propably due to post-occilator filtering... FM synthesis produces a lot of harmonics and non-harmonics and most of them get very noisy in the upper spectrum .. to make fm sound good to the human ear you need to filter yamaha has been developing on this bit a lot since the first fm synth came out (Yamaha DX-7) i'm sure that the filters used in the fm-pac opl have different algorithms than say a soundblaster opl. I'm not sure but there might be another source for difference ... Yamaha COULD (but i'm completely unsure about this) have boosted the operators resolution. this would mean that what used to sound like digital noise on the pac now actually sound like metalic noise > It's just a matter of how high your standards are set, realy completely true... i mean, to get the REAL fm-pac sound you'd have to connect your pc sound to a crappy monitor or tv... :)) greetz, akai [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Coen van der Geest wrote: > > Hi there, > > >But if I run an MSX1 game on BrMSX, using a video card with TV-out and an > >MSX joystick connected to the PC, and I hide the PC itself from sight, can > >you tell the difference with a real MSX1? > > Did I hear Turing Test? *grin* (OK, someone already used that joke B4, > but I liked it). > > >I don't mind if a few crappy coded games won't run. If BrMSX can run MSX1 > >games as well as my 8250 can, it's close enough to perfect for me. > > The problem is that sound chips like the FM Pac can't be emulated > correctly, since the A/D (that's D/A ed.) Convertor of (for example) the SoundBlaster > can't produce FM sounds. a fmpac cannot be emulated on ANY d/a convertor... an d/a convertor is just that, an Digital-to-analouge convertor... kick it... spit at it... but it will not give one sigh.. you realy need to apply an digital sound source to get a signal from it... btw... didn't the soundblaster 16 have an OPL3 or OPL4? > It is very hard to emulate the FM Pac, which is > kind of an analogue synth. nope... fm-pac has a FM synth inside which is digital... i challange you to name one analouge signal processing step in the fm-pac (except for any amps) > Compare it with Rebirth emulating the > (analogue) TB303 synth. are you saying that you can compare an FM-Pac to ReBirth? if so you are wrong (and i hate saying this) again completely different technology if you mean that you'd have to use ReBirth-like technologies to emulate an FM-Pac then i'd say forget it emulating an fm sound generator using tiny samples is near to impossible due to the complexity of FM sound... The only option i see is that you do some reading on FM and write code that emulates the fm-operators... this way you can make any fm sound on any d/a convertor.. FM is actually quite simple... you take one wave and multiply it with another to change the sound... > Emulators like KGen (Megadrive/Genesis) use this > technology. yeah, but megadrive didn't have an FM chip, did it? > BTW: I love emulators. Great hobby. If i ever found some time i'm sure i'd be doing emulators as well... :)) greetz, akai [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
] Tristan wrote: ] > This is only partly true. First, the OPL chip used on ADLIBs is not ] > called OPL1. Second, AFAIK that OPL is not equal to the OPLL used on ] ] OPL1 is contained inside the OPL2 used by AdLib cards. The ] OPL1 part of OPL2 chips is register-compatible with OPL1 ] chips and delivers exactly the same output. And you're ] right, OPL1 is not the same as OPLL + something. It is ] indeed a different beast. :) Differences are minor. In general, you can say that the OPL1 is a superset of the OPLL. There are only two functions which the OPLL has but which the OPL1 does not have: DC bit: Carrier wave is rectified to half wave (kind of distortion effect) DM bit: Modulated wave is rectified to half wave (kind of distortion effect) I haven't got a clue if an OPL2 does have this functionality. Below, you can find the registersettings needed to reproduce the opll hardware instruments on an OPL1. With thanks to Bernard Lamers and Hans Guijt for this information: Nr Register settingsName 1 61 61 12 20 b4 56 14 17 (violin) 2 02 41 15 20 a3 a3 75 05 (guitar) 3 31 11 0e 20 d9 b2 11 f4 (piano) 4 61 31 20 20 6c 43 18 26 (flute) 5 a2 30 a0 20 88 54 14 06 (clarinet) 6 31 34 20 20 72 56 0a 1c (oboe) 7 31 71 16 20 51 52 26 24 (trumpet) 8 e1 63 0a 20 fc f8 28 29 (organ) 9 61 71 0d 20 75 f2 18 03 (tube) a 42 44 0b 20 94 b0 33 f6 (synthesizer) b 01 00 06 20 a3 e2 f4 f4 (harpsichord) c f9 f1 24 20 95 d1 e5 f2 (vibraphone) d 40 31 89 20 c7 f9 14 04 (synthesizer bass) e 11 11 11 20 c0 b2 01 f4 (electric piano 2) f 23 43 09 20 dd bf 4a 05 (electric piano 1) Meaning of the 8 bytes to define an instrument: 0: AM/VIB/EGTYP/KSR/MULTI modulator 1: AM/VIB/EGTYP/KSR/MULTI carrier 2: KSL/TL modulator 3: KSL/TL carrier (notice: TL carrier is volume instrument!) 4: Attack rate/Decay rate modulator 5: Attack rate/Decay rate carrier 6: Sustain level/Release rate modulator 7: Sustain level/Release rate carrier Hans Guijt has used this information to emulate the fm-pac on fMSX amiga, using the OPL3 of an amiga sound extension card. For most fm-pac based games, you don't hear any difference between a real MSX and fMSX amiga! Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
Tristan wrote: > This is only partly true. First, the OPL chip used on ADLIBs is not > called OPL1. Second, AFAIK that OPL is not equal to the OPLL used on OPL1 is contained inside the OPL2 used by AdLib cards. The OPL1 part of OPL2 chips is register-compatible with OPL1 chips and delivers exactly the same output. And you're right, OPL1 is not the same as OPLL + something. It is indeed a different beast. :) []s, Parn MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Black boxes (Was "Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing")
Take some black boxes. Give the same imput to all the boxes. Watch the outputs. If the output is the same for all the boxes, the boxes are identical regardless what there is inside each one. Ciao! Maurizio Morandi a.k.a MxM Softworks on Msx $ IN MSX WE TRUST $ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
| I've tested BrMSX and it doesn't emulate MSX2, and PSG emulation sounds noisy | even at maximum freq (45455 Hz). I already said it was only MSX-1, and to be quite honest, PSG sound quite good here (SB AWE 64) Greetz, Arnaud MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
"philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
T> For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try T> BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... I've tested BrMSX and it doesn't emulate MSX2, and PSG emulation sounds noisy even at maximum freq (45455 Hz). JAM ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) *MSX Dreams* Apdo. Correos 3294 18080 Granada ... LSD A, (HL) ; ponemos en el acumulador el trippy al que apunta HL. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: OPLL emulation (was: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing)
> Each and every ad-lib compatible soundcard can emulate FM Pac and FM-part > of music module, since the ad-lib contains the OPL1 FM-Chip. Each sound > blaster compatible soundcard can emulate FM Pac, FM-part of music module > and ADPCM part of music module, since the soundblaster contains both the > OPL1 and a DA converter. This is only partly true. First, the OPL chip used on ADLIBs is not called OPL1. Second, AFAIK that OPL is not equal to the OPLL used on the FM-PAC (MSX-Music). I know of no way to create the OPLL hardware voices on an OPLx chip, unless there is some way to extracht OPL data for these voices from the OPLL. However, the sound of OPLL songs played through OPLx compatible FM chips is _almost_ the same. It's just a matter of how high your standards are set, realy Tristan + Omega + join #msx on undernet +[EMAIL PROTECTED]+ | | FUNET MSX maintainer | ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/msx | + irc: OmegaMSX +Techno composer+ http://users.bart.nl/~omegamsx + MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
At 10:14 AM 7/14/99 +0200, you wrote: >>But if I run an MSX1 game on BrMSX, using a video card with TV-out and an >>MSX joystick connected to the PC, and I hide the PC itself from sight, can >>you tell the difference with a real MSX1? > >Did I hear Turing Test? *grin* (OK, someone already used that joke B4, >but I liked it). Not a joke: it really is similar to the Turing Test... >The problem is that sound chips like the FM Pac can't be emulated >correctly, since the A/D Convertor of (for example) the SoundBlaster >can't produce FM sounds. It is very hard to emulate the FM Pac, which is >kind of an analogue synth. FM != analogue (or "FM <> analogue" for BASIC programmers) OPLx use D/A converters just like PC sound cards do. All the synthesis is digital, and can be emulated perfectly. Maybe the different sound is due to different D/A converters and filters. For example when you emulate an SCC using a MoonSound, there is a lot less noise and distortion, so it sounds differently, although the digital part is emulated accurately. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
] Hi there, ] ] >But if I run an MSX1 game on BrMSX, using a video card with TV-out and an ] >MSX joystick connected to the PC, and I hide the PC itself from sight, can ] >you tell the difference with a real MSX1? ] ] Did I hear Turing Test? *grin* (OK, someone already used that joke B4, ] but I liked it). ] ] >I don't mind if a few crappy coded games won't run. If BrMSX can run MSX1 ] >games as well as my 8250 can, it's close enough to perfect for me. ] ] The problem is that sound chips like the FM Pac can't be emulated ] correctly, since the A/D Convertor of (for example) the SoundBlaster ] can't produce FM sounds. It is very hard to emulate the FM Pac, which is Each and every ad-lib compatible soundcard can emulate FM Pac and FM-part of music module, since the ad-lib contains the OPL1 FM-Chip. Each sound blaster compatible soundcard can emulate FM Pac, FM-part of music module and ADPCM part of music module, since the soundblaster contains both the OPL1 and a DA converter. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Hi there, >But if I run an MSX1 game on BrMSX, using a video card with TV-out and an >MSX joystick connected to the PC, and I hide the PC itself from sight, can >you tell the difference with a real MSX1? Did I hear Turing Test? *grin* (OK, someone already used that joke B4, but I liked it). >I don't mind if a few crappy coded games won't run. If BrMSX can run MSX1 >games as well as my 8250 can, it's close enough to perfect for me. The problem is that sound chips like the FM Pac can't be emulated correctly, since the A/D Convertor of (for example) the SoundBlaster can't produce FM sounds. It is very hard to emulate the FM Pac, which is kind of an analogue synth. Compare it with Rebirth emulating the (analogue) TB303 synth. Emulators like KGen (Megadrive/Genesis) use this technology. BTW: I love emulators. Great hobby. Grtz Coen MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
AW: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Hi there, >] What I need is a turboR-emulator which runs Illusion City. >I want one that runs Zone Terra ;-) I want one which can run Moonsoft demos :-) Grtz Coen MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
| But if I run an MSX1 game on BrMSX, using a video card with TV-out and an | MSX joystick connected to the PC, and I hide the PC itself from sight, can | you tell the difference with a real MSX1? You will not be able to tell the difference, no... But It still won't be a real MSX, although it can be as good as a real MSX ! | I don't mind if a few crappy coded games won't run. If BrMSX can run MSX1 | games as well as my 8250 can, it's close enough to perfect for me. You can, don't worry ! Greetz, Arnie MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
At 07:04 PM 7/13/99 +0200, you wrote: >| >An emulated MSX, even on another computer called MSX isn't a _real_ MSX. >| >| But why? >| Is it purely emotional? > >Nop.. even techically spoken, he is right: A PC will ALWAYS be a PC, an MSX >will always be a MSX. Even if you emulate a MSX on a PC, it's still a PC, >but that doesn't say the emulation itself is not perfect ! But if I run an MSX1 game on BrMSX, using a video card with TV-out and an MSX joystick connected to the PC, and I hide the PC itself from sight, can you tell the difference with a real MSX1? >BrMSX is as perfect as can be. There is also almost no MSX-machine that is >able to run ALL msx-1 games ever published. But this is more because if bad >programming then something else. I don't mind if a few crappy coded games won't run. If BrMSX can run MSX1 games as well as my 8250 can, it's close enough to perfect for me. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Laurens Holst wrote: > > Why not? T-states emulation is kind of easy. > Oh, is it? Sure. All you have to do is compute how many t-cycles you have in each time frame (16ms/20ms). If I recall correctly, the MSX-1 at 60Hz should have more or less 59000 cycles. After executing each opcode, you just subtract the t-value from the total, and issue an V-IRQ when the counter reaches zero. You DO need an accurate t-cycles table, BrMSX uses the table compiled by Cyberknight (adjusted to take into account the extra clock in M1 cycle). Turbo-R emulation will be much harder than that, since I'll have to check for ROM/DRAM modes... > > Ask Adriano Cunha for the MSX implementation of the BogoMIPS > > algorithm and check it with a real MSX, and then with BrMSX... > But the BogoMIPS benchmark (it IS a benchmark, isn't it?) takes the average > amount of MIPS, does it? > BogoMIPS is just an bogus measure, but the value returned by it are EXACTLY the same in BrMSX and in a real Turbo-R running in Z80 mode. Another test you can make is this one: TIME=0:FORI=0TO1000:NEXT:?TIME The value returned by an Expert 1.0 (model emulated by BrMSX) is 92. This is the same value returned by BrMSX. This value is not the same in all MSX-models, due to differences in the bios irq handler, so if you want to test BrMSX againts another msx-model, be sure to change the MSX.ROM. I'm still looking for bugs in BrMSX. If you find ANY bug, even a VERY SMALL bug, then please report it to me. Ricardo Bittencourt http://www.lsi.usp.br/~ricardo [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Ricardo is subtle, but malicious he is not" Say NO to Coca-Cola. Drink Tubaina. --- MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> > And by the way, I don't think software-emulation can time correctly
(like
> > T-states etc.)
>
> Why not? T-states emulation is kind of easy.
Oh, is it?
> Almost all
> MSX-emulators does this right. If T-states weren't working perfectly, then
> you would never be able to hear the sound samples ("oh shit", "super
> laydock", "fuzzball", "star wars", "must", "vip") in BrMSX...
>
> Ask Adriano Cunha for the MSX implementation of the BogoMIPS
> algorithm and check it with a real MSX, and then with BrMSX...
But the BogoMIPS benchmark (it IS a benchmark, isn't it?) takes the average
amount of MIPS, does it?
~Grauw
--
>><<
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Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Laurens Holst wrote:
> And by the way, I don't think software-emulation can time correctly (like
> T-states etc.)
Why not? T-states emulation is kind of easy. Almost all
MSX-emulators does this right. If T-states weren't working perfectly, then
you would never be able to hear the sound samples ("oh shit", "super
laydock", "fuzzball", "star wars", "must", "vip") in BrMSX...
Ask Adriano Cunha for the MSX implementation of the BogoMIPS
algorithm and check it with a real MSX, and then with BrMSX...
Ricardo Bittencourt http://www.lsi.usp.br/~ricardo
[EMAIL PROTECTED] "Ricardo is subtle, but malicious he is not"
Say NO to Coca-Cola. Drink Tubaina. ---
MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put
in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the
quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
| >Some of them are getting in the right direction but... still | >they are not the same as the REAL THING! | | Why? | I must say he is right on that point. They are still not exactly the same as the real thing, but please consider they are getting closer and closer, and in the future they might reach the point that emulation will be perfect. The only exception still is BrMSX. This emulator is very close to being perfect. Although it's only MSX-1... | >This conversation is probably only getting you more hits on your | >homepage... Well... To be quite honest.. I couldn't care less.. I have about 250 people visiting my site every day. A few extra might come because of this conversation, but please tell me.. What would be wrong with that ? Why aren't people allowed to visit my site after reading this ? I am not forcing them to do so. Don't worry. You don't have to visit my site if you don't want to. But I am also wondering why you seem to are blaiming me personally for me making that remark for people to have a look at that emulator ? I thought that we are all living in free countries, and having some freedom of expression ? I personally think you are very childish to attack me personally.. But... then again.. That's your right aswell. | >People better buy the real thing to keep MSX going... Why ??? Do you think that if I buy a second hand philips MSX-2 from someone else, that this will help MSX to survive ? I don't think so. I think an emulator will give MSX a better way to survive. In something like 10 years, most real MSX machines will be broken. The only way to use your MSX programms then will be on an emulator. And for the records: - I also have a real MSX-2 (Still looking for a 256/512 kb memory mapper, anybody ???) - I even still buy original MSX-software Kindest Regards, Arnaud de Klerk MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
| >An emulated MSX, even on another computer called MSX isn't a _real_ MSX. | | But why? | Is it purely emotional? Nop.. even techically spoken, he is right: A PC will ALWAYS be a PC, an MSX will always be a MSX. Even if you emulate a MSX on a PC, it's still a PC, but that doesn't say the emulation itself is not perfect ! | By the way, I will try BrMSX to see if it deserves to be called "perfect". BrMSX is as perfect as can be. There is also almost no MSX-machine that is able to run ALL msx-1 games ever published. But this is more because if bad programming then something else. Ricardo Bittencort is a perfectionist. That's also the reason BrMSX doesn't support MSX-2 yet. He first wants to have a perfect MSX-1, before he will continue with MSX-2 emulation. Kindest Regards, Arnaud de Klerk MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Laurens Holst wrote: > I don't think that a machine which is backwards compatible > with MSX but has other native code can still be called an MSX. Hmmm... :) MSX1 VDP is part of MSX1 standard... V9938 is part of MSX2 standard. V9938 is backwards compatible with MSX1 VDP, but has other native code (it can run opcodes, while MSX1 VDP can't -- does it can?). But... MSX2 is called an MSX. `:) Funny, isn't it? ;) []s, Parn P.S.: I know this is full of technical errors. Please don't mind this too seriously. ^^ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> >>For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try > >>BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... > > > >Stop writing this "philosophical" nonsense... There will never be a perfect > >emulator... > > There is no reason why there can't be. If you can make it in digital > hardware, you can make it in software as well. It's just a matter of how > much effort you put into it. In theory, yes. > >Some of them are getting in the right direction but... still > >they are not the same as the REAL THING! > > Why? Ok, if I really don't notice it's using software-emulation... Maybe. But even only the knowledge it's software-emulation gives me the creeps... I don't think a perfect software-emulation can be done, you will at least need a hell of a processor for it. And if you want to use the new features of this 'new' MSX, when the code won't be Z80-code (otherwise at least CPU-emulation wouldn't have been nessacary). I don't think that a machine which is backwards compatible with MSX but has other native code can still be called an MSX. And by the way, I don't think software-emulation can time correctly (like T-states etc.) > >This conversation is probably only getting you more hits on your > >homepage... That indeed slaat nergens op. > >People better buy the real thing to keep MSX going... > > Is MSX just the hardware? In my opinion, when someone plays an MSX game in > an emulator, they are connected to MSX as well. Maybe not as much as when > coding a real machine in assembly, but connected nevertheless. Emulator users are definately MSX-ers (although I don't think they use it very often, in the beginning, maybe, but after a year the fun of an emulator is gone. So most of them are very 'temporary' users I think). > >(and they must not > >forget to get a subscription on XSW-Magazine!)... > > Laurens wants me to read Track, you want me to read XSW... > Where does it stop? ;) Me? Track? I would have liked it, but Track isn't made anymore, so... ~Grauw MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> ] > ] And besides, BrMSX doesn't emulate MSX2. > ] What I need is a turboR-emulator which runs Illusion City. > I want one that runs Zone Terra ;-) I want one that can do anything that BrMSX can do and also run "Unknown Reality" and "Almost Real". Fully! THEN let's see about MSX2+ and Turbo R. BTW: fMSX is getting better and better, but it would be nice if the people who are developping for it would work more closely! Now several people are making extensions/improvements for it, but it's not clear how these can work together and how to compile fMSX with all improvements. It would be nice if you people merged all those improvements! So, Alex Wulms, Sean Young, Arnold Metselaar, Marat Fayzullin (random order!), get together! I think fMSX could be much better then, even could have already been much better than it is now. Grtjs, Manuel ((m)ICQ UIN 41947405) PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my homepage at http://www.sci.kun.nl/marie/home/manuelbi/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
TFH wrote: > > For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try > BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... > ahum, does it run Unknown Reality from NOP ?? especially the vertical screensplit. Ha, thought so David -- "One difference between SuSE and Red Hat is that the former operates in a country where people don't sue each other over coffee being too hot." Linus Torvalds MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
At 10:11 PM 7/12/99 +0200, you wrote: >>For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try >>BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... > >Stop writing this "philosophical" nonsense... There will never be a perfect >emulator... There is no reason why there can't be. If you can make it in digital hardware, you can make it in software as well. It's just a matter of how much effort you put into it. >Some of them are getting in the right direction but... still >they are not the same as the REAL THING! Why? >This conversation is probably only getting you more hits on your >homepage... Arnaud only said that in his opinion, BrMSX had already reached the perfect state. If you have a problem with this conversation, blame me, not him... And it will get him one extra hit: me downloading BrMSX. But with the number of hits he already gets, I can hardly imagine that's the reason he replied. >People better buy the real thing to keep MSX going... Is MSX just the hardware? In my opinion, when someone plays an MSX game in an emulator, they are connected to MSX as well. Maybe not as much as when coding a real machine in assembly, but connected nevertheless. >(and they must not >forget to get a subscription on XSW-Magazine!)... Laurens wants me to read Track, you want me to read XSW... Where does it stop? ;) Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
At 05:46 PM 7/12/99 +0200, you wrote: >> For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try >> BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... > >That was not my point. > >An emulated MSX, even on another computer called MSX isn't a _real_ MSX. But why? Is it purely emotional? By the way, I will try BrMSX to see if it deserves to be called "perfect". Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
] > For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try ] > BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... ] ] That was not my point. ] ] An emulated MSX, even on another computer called MSX isn't a _real_ MSX. ] ] ] And besides, BrMSX doesn't emulate MSX2. ] What I need is a turboR-emulator which runs Illusion City. I want one that runs Zone Terra ;-) Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
Hello Arnaud, >For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try >BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... Stop writing this "philosophical" nonsense... There will never be a perfect emulator... Some of them are getting in the right direction but... still they are not the same as the REAL THING! This conversation is probably only getting you more hits on your homepage... People better buy the real thing to keep MSX going... (and they must not forget to get a subscription on XSW-Magazine!)... --[ MARI ]-- - Visit XSW-Magazine's Homepage http://www.xsw-msx.demon.nl - M.H.M. van den Broek Molenweg 17 5342 TA Oss The Netherlands +31-412-630653 +31-6-22125592 - MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try > BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... That was not my point. An emulated MSX, even on another computer called MSX isn't a _real_ MSX. And besides, BrMSX doesn't emulate MSX2. What I need is a turboR-emulator which runs Illusion City. RuMSX: go for it! ~Grauw MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
>Who knows, maybe I programmed my computer to emulate my brain and respond >to messages on the MSX list. You can't tell the difference, because you >don't see me typing... I can. Your message was actually typed by that GUI equipped dishwasher! 8;D Kiss you. Mk2 MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
For those still telling there is no perfect msx emulator, please try BrMSX... And maybe you will think differently... Kindest Regards, Arnaud Go visit the MSX Emulator Page (M.E.P.) http://www.mep.msxnet.org http://surf.to/msxemu http://www.casema.net/~tfh ICQ:1446 MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
Re: "philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
> Who knows, maybe I programmed my computer to emulate my brain and respond > to messages on the MSX list. You can't tell the difference, because you > don't see me typing... This is the Turing test 8-) -- /*-*/ /* */ /* Toni Burguera Burguera| 9D-La Novena Dimensió*/ /* ==| http://pagina.de/9d */ /* [EMAIL PROTECTED] | WWW.MSX.ORG */ /* [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.msx.org */ /* */ /*-*/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
"philosophical" view of emulation vs real thing
At 10:55 PM 7/10/99 +0200, you wrote: >You raise a very interesting question there. Where is the line between an >MSX and other computers? >The answer to that question is in the charasterics of an MSX I think. So any >new machine with the name MSX should in the first place run most of the msx >software ever made (not all, since a lot of software for msx1 didn't run on >a msx2 either). And not running it emulated, I agree with that. Because in >that case there are a already a lot of new msx's around (PC, Unix, Amiga and >all those other systems running emulators). I don't think an emulator is essentially different from a "real" MSX. Currently, you can tell emulators apart from real MSXes. For example, the emulator may run too slow, contain bugs, produce video and sound that are a bit off etc. But if there would be a perfect emulator, would there still be a real difference with the real thing? Is there, from the user's point of view, really a distinction line between software and hardware? I don't think so. What if a new IC would perfectly emulate the Z80 using an embedded RISC processor running a Z80 emulator. You would have a single IC with the functionality of a Z80. If you don't look inside the IC, you can't see the difference. Is an MSX built using this new IC a real MSX? It is, in my opinion. Now also other parts of the MSX (PSG, VDP) are emulated using embedded RISC processors. Is it still MSX? To make things more efficient, all ICs are combined into a single IC. And because the RISC processor is very fast, all emulation tasks are handled by a single processor instead of multiple. Is it still MSX? Now take the memory of the RISC processor outside of the IC and use RAM instead of ROM. So the emulation is now completely done in software. Is it still MSX? Final step, you add an operating system that allows the computer to do other things besides emulating MSX. Ofcourse, when it's doing those other things, it's not really MSX. But if it's in MSX emulation mode, I think it is a real MSX. Conclusion: In my opinion, there is no real difference between software implementation of MSX and hardware implementation. The only thing that matters is the accuracy of the emulation. Note: If I understand it right, the Pentium III is essentially a RISC processor emulating an x86 processor. So the story above is not as fictious as it may seem... Another note: Maybe it's true in general that there is no difference between perfect emulation and the real thing. Who knows, maybe I programmed my computer to emulate my brain and respond to messages on the MSX list. You can't tell the difference, because you don't see me typing... Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.stack.nl/~wiebe/mailinglist/)
