Re: APNIC Privacy of customer assignment records - implementation update
Matthew == Matthew Kaufman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Matthew The truth is, it doesn't even need to be a case of grandma Matthew listed in the whois (though that is a legitimate issue these Matthew days). If as an ISP, I list Bob's Flower Market (which has Matthew a DSL line and IP addresses for every cash register and Matthew order-fulfillment machine) in whois, all that does is: Matthew A) Cause Bob's Flower Market to get spam at the address Matthew harvested from whois, Are you talking about email spam or snail-mail here? Matthew and Matthew B) Cause people who have issues with virus-infected Matthew machines to call Bob (who doesn't know jack about viruses) Matthew instead of calling me (I can remotely shut him off until I Matthew can drive over there with a CD full of anti-virus software), Matthew and So list yourself as the contact (but not the network owner) rather than him. There's a world of difference between hiding the whole assignment (which means that, for example, I can't find out the extent of Bob's network in order to block the viruses he's spewing without also affecting traffic from the perfectly clean networks who have the bad luck to be assigned adjacent IPs) and making the contacts point to the ISP rather than the customer in cases where the ISP is the only competent technical contact. Matthew C) Gives my competition Bob's name and phone number, so Matthew they can try to sell him their DSL service instead. Cost of doing business. The operational requirements of the rest of the network, who _do_ have a substantial interest in being able to know where one customer network stops and another one starts, and the identity of the customer if it's a business, outweighs any inconvenience you might suffer as a result. Matthew (Imagine the response if you asked any other local business Matthew to post their complete customer list, with the names and Matthew unlisted phone numbers of buyers, on the front door) I don't know about where you are, but where I live it's a legal requirement for any company to display its registered company name on every place where it does business. So if you're a provider of, say, office space, then yes, the complete list of your customers will be on the front door. (Your introduction of unlisted phone numbers into the argument is of course wholly spurious - the issue of how much contact info should be listed is a separate one from the issue of whether the network assignment itself should be listed.) Matthew What it does NOT do is: Matthew 1) Reduce the amount of virus traffic accountable to Bob Matthew (might make it worse, if people call him instead of me), or But it stops me from reliably blocking Bob's network without affecting innocent parties who don't have a virus problem but do have adjacent IPs. Matthew 2) Reduce the amount of spam in the world (probably Matthew increases it, at least from Bob's point of view), or If Bob happens to be a spammer, it makes it harder to block his networks without affecting innocent bystanders. It makes it harder to detect that his provider is simply shuffling him around in response to blocks or complaints. It makes it harder to link up the connections between otherwise apparently separate spammers or spam gangs. I see no reason why there should not be some flexibility in the whois data regarding who is listed as a contact for what purpose, the extent of information required for listed contacts, etc. But there needs to be a stronger argument than just vaguely saying privacy concerns in order to justify not listing the extent of the IPs allocated, and the owner and business address of the recipient of the allocation except where the allocation is to a residential user. As for the ARIN proposal 2004-6, I notice that it would have the effect of essentially nullifying the requirements of the previously adopted policy 2003-5 (requirements for RWhois servers). That policy expressly states that reassignment info must be available to the public and not just to ARIN staff. There is nothing given in the rationale for 2004-6 to explain why 2003-5 should be summarily overruled in this way. -- Andrew, Supernews http://www.supernews.com
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Nicole wrote: So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. There is an implicit assumption here that the objective of 100% of these trainees will be to move as economic migrants to the West. Wrong folks. Very very wrong. Notice how China as a *consumer* is growing faster than anyone else around ? While there may well be some (what's the right word ?) retro-sourcing of cheap labour into the US (and the EU), I suspect that once any initial levelling of the field happens, there will be just as much, if not more, movement the other way. There is a lot of jingoistic rhetoric here, and not enough rational thought about the objective - building big networks in the biggest economy of the near future. PS I hate *all* certification with a passion, regardless of level and including things like my BSc which was just a great excuse to drink lots for a few years. The person doing the selection of candidates should have enough expertise themselves to make a rational judgement based on a face to face interview. Peter
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote: Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard. Perhaps it's time instead to make sure you're good at what you do and try to be on the forefront of tech, rather than whining about how all those bad people from abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our own fault labour pricing in large outsourcing countries like India are so low, and now it's coming back to bite some of us. We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Strangely people only start calling for a level, fair playing field when they feel something's threatening their own little piece of the cake. If most companies and governments we're happy to work for wouldn't have been undermining other people's economies for ages, we wouldn't have this problem and we would have a more or less fair playing field. But now practices that we still are making money of is making our companies stronger, but our workforce weaker, so in the long term probably our overall economy will be weaker. Anyone else see the irony here..? Don't Support Outsourcing, Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Hmm...let me see now, no Juniper, no Cisco, no Oracle, no Microsoft, basically not a single vendor left...ah yes, we should just stop working completely and dismantle the Internet, that might just do the trick. Cheers, Erik -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31(0)10 7507008 fax:+31(0)10 7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
- Original Message - From: Erik Haagsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:59 AM Subject: RE: Cisco moves even more to china. On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote: Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard. Perhaps it's time instead to make sure you're good at what you do and try to be on the forefront of tech, rather than whining about how all those bad people from abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our own fault labour pricing in large outsourcing countries like India are so low, and now it's coming back to bite some of us. well said. for some reason (could be my wacky soviet upbringing), i've always felt that only people who have no confidence in their own abilities can feel threatened by those of others. somehow, when you're busy doing new and interesting stuff, you just don't have the time or the inclination to get up on that soapbox.. paul
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard. Yes, definitely. Emigrate to the countries where the jobs are going to. Learn to speak a new language if necessary, after all you are all smart people, right? Learning a new human language only takes a couple of years to get fluent enough to handle a job in the tech field. Salaries in these countries may be low from a US perspective but they are usually high within the local economy of the foreign country. There's always more than one way to skin a cat... --Michael Dillon P.S. This list has people on it from around the world including all the countries to which US jobs are fleeing.
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Hello Erik, Although I agree with you on many points I think its time people stop complaining and take action. My point was not to idly complain about the outsourcing trend and claim that protectionism is the answer but, to ask if there is a better way to deal with the long term trend for ALL of us. Boycotting is just one way to send a message rather than simply complaining. Your perception of Americans I think is very skewed by the media. You obviously did not read my post and wanted take a cheap shot. Many Americans like myself have always been fighting for equity, fairness and democracy from the beginning in all our activities. Try not to equate a people with what you read and hear in the media and realize they have much more diversity of opinion than is portrayed therein. I argue we BOTH American and international workers (that means you) need to change the system so that we are all treated fairly. I don't think this is an off the wall ideal. But to each his own. Hmmm. I had no idea there were only 2 networking companies, 1 database and 1 OS. =) With the rich competitive nature of the market I will continue to support companies which conform to a baseline of ethical business practice for all workers worldwide. With deepest respect, JErik Haagsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote: Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard.Perhaps it's time instead to make sure you're good at what you do andtry to be on the forefront of tech, rather than whining about how allthose bad people from abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our ownfault labour pricing in large outsourcing countries like India are solow, and now it's coming back to bite some of us. We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Strangely people only start calling for a level, fair playing field whenthey feel something's threatening their own little piece of the cake. Ifmost companies and governments we're happy to work for wouldn't havebeen undermining other people's economies for ages, we wouldn't havethis problem and we would have a more or less fair playing field. Butnow practices that we still are making money of is making our companiesstronger, but our workforce weaker, so in the long term probably ouroverall economy will be weaker. Anyone else see the irony here..? Don't Support Outsourcing, Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs.Hmm...let me see now, no Juniper, no Cisco, no Oracle, no Microsoft,basically not a single vendor left...ah yes, we should just stop workingcompletely and dismantle the Internet, that might just do the trick.Cheers,Erik-- ---Erik HaagsmanNetwork ArchitectWe Dare BVtel: +31(0)10 7507008fax:+31(0)10 7507005http://www.we-dare.nl Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
Re: APNIC Privacy of customer assignment records - implementation update
So list yourself as the contact (but not the network owner) rather than him. I see no reason why there should not be some flexibility in the whois data regarding who is listed as a contact for what purpose, the extent of information required for listed contacts, etc. I proposed a revision to the way whois works that would have been a compromise between APNIC's delisting and the current chaos. You can read it at http://www.arin.net/policy/2004_4.html It would have allowed listing the block itself without identifying the customer unless the customer was willing to handle their own abuse issues. It also would have allowed for researchers to continue to analyze the Internet deployment in much the same way as before. As always, ARIN policies come from the members first, so if people do not want to follow the APNIC precedent but instead want a more meaningful solution, 2004-4 can be revived by someone else. It all depends on what gets discussed on the ARIN PPML mailing list http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/index.html#ppml and what gets discussed at the ARIN meeting. That means that everyone on this list is wasting their time discussing this. The discussion should happen on PPML where the ARIN Advisory Council are obliged to take note of it. Or at the ARIN meeting itself. --Michael Dillon
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Then you all need to stop purchasing from Dell, IBM, HP, Cisco, et al. They've all outsourced quite a bit to the third world. 90% of the parts for any of this stuff come from Asia. The US has lost more manufacturing jobs in the last 3 years then the previous 22. There are 18% fewer tech jobs in this country than there were 4 years ago. You'll also need to stop dealing with Citicorp and Bank of America and the rest of the big financial companies that have moved IT operations to Bangalor or deal with companies like Keane that do as much as possible offshore. Motorola is moving RD to China (tantamount to giving away military secrets). I can go on. Those last two statements don't make much sense to me. The way to fix things is to remove the incentives to move the jobs overseas in the first place. Fair trade, not free trade. Joseph wrote: [snip] We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Pure free market capitalism has no concept fairness and equity and no room for correcting the drastic changes that can sometimes cause great societal costs. Capitalism is not inherently bad but it is an imperfect system in need of much guidance. Historically the only way this system has been improved is by Labor action, political involvement and transparent government. Getting upset about job losses is useless and futile we need to take action! Don't Support Outsourcing Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal and call and mail these companies and let them know you will not support them. Let them know you are watching what they are doing and will vote with your Dollars. Check out the site below to look up any company. http://www.workingamerica.org/ Be Politically Active Be politically aware and active! Remain politically active and tell your state local politician and the president that they need to be protective of American jobs and leveling the playing field in world wide labor market. Check out these links http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/outsourcedebate.html http://www.workingamerica.org/ Just my 2 cents. =)
The Cidr Report
This report has been generated at Fri Sep 24 21:44:25 2004 AEST.
The report analyses the BGP Routing Table of an AS4637 (Reach) router
and generates a report on aggregation potential within the table.
Check http://www.cidr-report.org/as4637 for a current version of this report.
Recent Table History
Date PrefixesCIDR Agg
17-09-04143628 98841
18-09-04143795 98791
19-09-04143753 98757
20-09-04143810 98790
21-09-04143714 99006
22-09-04144230 99037
23-09-04144280 99059
24-09-04144324 99983
AS Summary
18046 Number of ASes in routing system
7331 Number of ASes announcing only one prefix
1386 Largest number of prefixes announced by an AS
AS7018 : ATTW ATT WorldNet Services
86681856 Largest address span announced by an AS (/32s)
AS721 : DNIC DoD Network Information Center
Aggregation Summary
The algorithm used in this report proposes aggregation only
when there is a precise match using the AS path, so as
to preserve traffic transit policies. Aggregation is also
proposed across non-advertised address space ('holes').
--- 24Sep04 ---
ASnumNetsNow NetsAggr NetGain % Gain Description
Table 145918 1000174590131.5% All ASes
AS18566 7407 73399.1% CVAD Covad Communications
AS4134 785 176 60977.6% CHINANET-BACKBONE
No.31,Jin-rong Street
AS4323 788 217 57172.5% TWTC Time Warner Telecom
AS7018 1386 961 42530.7% ATTW ATT WorldNet Services
AS7843 491 98 39380.0% ADELPH-13 Adelphia Corp.
AS22773 400 21 37994.8% CXA Cox Communications Inc.
AS6467 393 30 36392.4% ACSI e.spire Communications,
Inc.
AS27364 394 36 35890.9% ARMC Armstrong Cable Services
AS701 1246 901 34527.7% UU UUNET Technologies, Inc.
AS22909 376 46 33087.8% CMCS Comcast Cable
Communications, Inc.
AS6197 722 404 31844.0% BNS-14 BellSouth Network
Solutions, Inc
AS1239 957 640 31733.1% SPRN Sprint
AS17676 362 56 30684.5% JPNIC-JP-ASN-BLOCK Japan
Network Information Center
AS9929 334 33 30190.1% CNCNET-CN China Netcom Corp.
AS6478 364 71 29380.5% ATTW ATT WorldNet Services
AS4355 381 99 28274.0% ERSD EARTHLINK, INC
AS21502 2683 26598.9% ASN-NUMERICABLE NUMERICABLE is
a cabled network in France,
AS4766 529 266 26349.7% KIXS-AS-KR Korea Telecom
AS6347 332 79 25376.2% SAVV SAVVIS Communications
Corporation
AS14654 2596 25397.7% WAYPOR-3 Wayport
AS6140 364 114 25068.7% IMPSA ImpSat
AS9443 359 110 24969.4% INTERNETPRIMUS-AS-AP Primus
Telecommunications
AS11172 286 53 23381.5% Alestra
AS25844 244 16 22893.4% SASMFL-2 Skadden, Arps, Slate,
Meagher Flom LLP
AS2386 834 607 22727.2% ADCS-1 ATT Data
Communications Services
AS1221 811 584 22728.0% ASN-TELSTRA Telstra Pty Ltd
AS15557 371 144 22761.2% LDCOMNET LDCOM NETWORKS
AS9583 534 315 21941.0% SIFY-AS-IN Sify Limited
AS6198 428 210 21850.9% BNS-14 BellSouth Network
Solutions, Inc
AS721719 512 20728.8% DNIC DoD Network Information
Center
Total 16457 6815 964258.6% Top 30 total
Possible Bogus Routes
24.138.80.0/20 AS11260 AHSICHCL Andara High Speed Internet c/o Halifax
Cable Ltd.
24.246.0.0/17AS7018 ATTW ATT WorldNet Services
24.246.38.0/24 AS25994 NPGCAB NPG Cable, INC
24.246.128.0/18 AS7018 ATTW ATT WorldNet Services
64.46.4.0/22 AS11711 TULARO TULAROSA COMMUNICATIONS
64.46.27.0/24AS8674 NETNOD-IX Netnod Internet Exchange Sverige AB
64.46.34.0/24AS3408
64.46.63.0/24AS7850 IHIGHW iHighway.net, Inc.
64.83.96.0/19AS26956 NETFR NetFree Communications
64.127.0.0/18AS7018
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Too Late CDL drivers are already outsourced a couple of years ago we agreed to allow Mexican trucking firms access to the entire CONUS. Before that they were limited to 100 Miles from the border. Become a mechanic or plumber instead... Scott C. McGrath On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Jason Graun wrote: I think the IT field as a whole, programmers, network guys, etc... are going to go the way of the auto workers in the 70's and 80's. I am a CCIE working and on a second one and it saddens me that all my hard work and advanced knowledge could be replaced by a chop-shop guy because from a business standpoint quarter to quarter the chop-shop guy is cheaper on the books. Never mind the fact that I solve problems on the network in under 30mins and save the company from downtime but I am too expensive. I used to love technology and all it had to offer but now I feel cheated, I feel like we all have been burned by the way the business guys look at the technology, as a commodity. Thankfully I am still young (mid 20's) I can make a career switch but I'll still love the technology. Anyway I am going to start the paper work to be an H1b to China and brush up on my Mandarin. I've felt this way about things at times. It's why I'm getting my CDL. I highly doubt they can find a way to outsource *that* to some third-world country. -Dan Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erik Haagsman Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 7:55 PM To: Dan Mahoney, System Admin Cc: Nicole; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 02:29, Dan Mahoney, System Admin wrote: I've always personally taken anyone who said but I'm an MCSE with a grain of salt. I've had equal respect for the A-plus and Net-Plus certifications, which are basically bought. I take most certifications with a grain of salt, including degrees, unless someone clearly demonstrates he know's what he's talking about, is able to make intelligent decisions and learns new techniques quickly. In which case a certification is still just an add-on ;-) I used to have more trust in the /CC../ certifications but I find I may be laughing those off too quite soon. The vendor's introductory certs (CCNA, CCNP, JNCIA, JNCIS) don't say anything about a candidate, except exactly that (I got the cert). CCIE and JNCIE are still at least an indicator someone was at a certain level at the time of getting the certification, but are still no substitute for experience and a brain in good working order. It's too bad there aren't better general (non-vendor specific) certs, since what often lacks is general understanding of network architecture and protocols. You can teach anyone the right commands for Vendor X and they'll prolly get a basic config going on a few nodes, but when troubleshooting time comes it's useless without good knowledge of the underlying technology, which none of the vendor certs teach very well (IMHO anyway ;-) Cheers, Erik -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31.10.7507008 fax: +31.10.7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl -- Don't be so depressed dear. I have no endorphins, what am I supposed to do? -DM and SK, February 10th, 1999 Dan Mahoney Techie, Sysadmin, WebGeek Gushi on efnet/undernet IRC ICQ: 13735144 AIM: LarpGM Site: http://www.gushi.org ---
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Curtis Maurand [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The way to fix things is to remove the incentives to move the jobs overseas in the first place. So are you suggesting wages (and standard of living) in America are reduced to the level of those in the 3rd world? -- Roland Perry
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Hi Joseph, On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 13:19, Joseph wrote: Your perception of Americans I think is very skewed by the media. You obviously did not read my post and wanted take a cheap shot. Although this is hardly the place to discuss this, I never said Americans, I said we. I'm Dutch, and we've got an equal amount of people whining about the same problems, thinking we'll be invaded and robbed from jobs because Poland joins the EU and Philips and CMG out-source to China and India. It's the same everywhere in the Western world, and my message was not intended as an attack on either an invidual or one country and it's people. I realise this is very generalising, but the majority of the people in all our countries couldn't care less if we rob the rest of the world blind, until there's a slight possibility they might actually be affected themselves. Hmmm. I had no idea there were only 2 networking companies, 1 database and 1 OS. =) With the rich competitive nature of the market I will continue to support companies which conform to a baseline of ethical business practice for all workers worldwide. I would like to do the same, but the fact of the matter is that in some key areas there's not much choice, especially when it comes to hardware...unless I've missed something I haven't seen an Open-Source carrier-grade routing system that can rival C or J's, and just about any commercial hardware manufacturer in the world has a production plant in one third world country or another, or at least uses loads of low-priced parts (memory, IC's etc.) that are manufactured in those same places. There's no escaping it if you're working in networking and IT. Kind regards, -- --- Erik Haagsman Network Architect We Dare BV tel: +31(0)10 7507008 fax:+31(0)10 7507005 http://www.we-dare.nl
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Yeah, but don't they already have a company over there that is producing Cisco stuff? Or did I mis-read a lawsuit? Cisco don't have a choice, they are starting to see the competition from Chinese companies already - they need to reduce the cost of manufacturing so that they can stay competitive and not have to reduce their margins, of which Cisco regularly state that they will maintain at all costs in a number of financial statements/briefings. So either they maintain their business by moving people to China or they pull the plug on product lines they can't maintain margins on. In either case people will be laid off, its not a great situation but it's the push that we all make to have things cheaper with more features in them. There are a number of companies building networking equipment in China: www.huawei.com www.zte.com.cn www.harbournetworks.com They make everything from mobile phones to Long Haul Optical Systems. A large number of big well known vendors have been making things in China for years. I've recently see one of Huawei's 1760 alternative boxes and the build quality is fantastic. Regards, Neil.
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
The way to fix things is to remove the incentives to move the jobs overseas in the first place. So are you suggesting wages (and standard of living) in America are reduced to the level of those in the 3rd world? Hmmm... A beginning software engineer in Bangalore makes 15,000 Rupees per month which is about $330 USD. On the other hand, he can afford to hire one or two full-time servants to look after his apartment, cleaning, cooking, driving him home from the bars when he's had one too many. Is this a higher standard of living or a lower one? Many Indian citizens who emigrated to the USA have returned home because they want to INCREASE their standard of living. Let's just agree that lifestyles in different countries are different and diversity is a better thing than forcing everyone to adopt American standards and lifestyle. Many of us on this list are not Americans and many of us have had a taste of the American lifestyle and decided that life is better elsewhere. http://www.novapolis.de/india/bangalore_e.html And now we come to the Internet. This is the great enabler that allows people to live where they want and still participate in the modern world, work in challenging occupations and lead an intellectually fulfilling lifestyle without the constraints of geography. For the past 12 years I have been doing everything that I can to support this type of Internet and I'm now quite confident that it has enough momentum that not even the members of this mailing list are capable of stopping it. The Internet today is like the big wave http://www.towsurfer.com/ and nobody will stop it. This list is for people who want to ride the wave and find a fulfilling career doing so. If you really want to try and stop the wave, go ahead, but I think you should do that work elsewhere. --Michael Dillon
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Joseph wrote: Modern capitalism does create a race to the bottom effect for labor which seems to have no end. This race exists because of imbalances in prosperity in world. The ultimate effect will be to completely level standard of living in the world, which in the greater scheme of things will be a good thing. This level will be far higher than it is now for the vast majority of people in the world. For some unfortunately it will no improvement, possibly even a slight drop. It's easy for me to say though, I live in a country that has gone from one of Europe's poorest, to one of Europe's richest in barely 20 years, thanks to globalisation and external investment (and EU grants and tax breaks to help attract that external investment). regards, -- Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Kilroe hic erat!
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Neil J. McRae wrote: www.huawei.com I've recently see one of Huawei's 1760 alternative boxes and the build quality is fantastic. As a matter of fact, Huawei outsources a lot of its coding / design to their sei-cmm5 certified operation in Bangalore, India, and its shenzhen campus has at least a few hundred Indian engineers on its staff. srs
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes If you really want to try and stop the wave, go ahead, but I think you should do that work elsewhere. I'm all in favour of enhancing the wave; but who is worst off, the American engineer who fears the day he can't afford the payments on his Hummer, or the chap driving the Bangalorian engineer for a dollar a day? -- Roland Perry
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Great...So Cisco is turning into the Nike of technology. I can't wait to see 11 year olds building routers that sell for $1.5 million USD, while getting paid 7 cents/hour. [Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 04:49:11PM -0700] Nicole Inscribed these words... Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. *SIGH* Nicole -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds -- Stephen (routerg) irc.dks.ca
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
I just find the whole idea of Cisco amusing, they still sell new 7500 series routers for 6 figures with the right configurations, and they've been around for 10 years, in what other industry can you take a product that is a decade old, hasn't advanced in technology, and still sell them new for $100,000? Although admittedly most sensible people buy them on ebay for a grand these days. -Drew -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Perciballi Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:56 AM To: Nicole Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cisco moves even more to china. Great...So Cisco is turning into the Nike of technology. I can't wait to see 11 year olds building routers that sell for $1.5 million USD, while getting paid 7 cents/hour. [Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 04:49:11PM -0700] Nicole Inscribed these words... Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) During a Beijing news conference John Chambers (Cisco CEO) Says We believe in giving something back and truly becoming a Chineese company. China will become the IT center or the world China will become the largest economy in the world. CNN Reports: Cisco is investing 32 Million into Changi and is training 10's of thousands of Chineese university students in Cisco technology. So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. *SIGH* Nicole -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds -- Stephen (routerg) irc.dks.ca
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 10:45:01AM -0400, Drew Weaver wrote: I just find the whole idea of Cisco amusing, they still sell new 7500 series routers for 6 figures with the right configurations, and they've been around for 10 years, in what other industry can you take a product that is a decade old, hasn't advanced in technology, and still sell them new for $100,000? You're asking the wrong question, and with wrong basis. 7500 platform has evolved significantly over time. Think about RSP1, and *IP linecards, all with centralized RSP-based process/fast switching. Nowadays you have z-Chassis, RSP16, VIP8, PAs, with distributed CEF. Also, you have a large range of interfaces available, even somewhat exotic ones. And you can still use the old *IP linecards without having to make too many compromises (you'll lose some features on those *IP based interfaces, and dCEF from/to them). I'm seeing a lot of RSP4/VIP[24] based 7507/7513 still in nice use, basically unchanged in terms of upgrades since around five years. I can think of very few products in the ISP network device industry which do survive such a long usable life cycle, shifting nicely from the very high-speed core down to access/pop-in-a-box applications and still run code (12.2S) which has almost all of today's technical bells and whistles. The 7500 line is clearly an outstanding example of what kind of gear the industry needs. IMHO, said by a known Cisco anti-fan. YMMV. Although admittedly most sensible people buy them on ebay for a grand these days. Yup. Regards, Daniel
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Outsourcing is a way of life. It is a result of free trade policy. It has been happening for a long time in the other industries. There are very real benefits to the outsourcing. It helps keep our cost of living down (I live in California). On the other hand, it is very hard on the folks whose livelihood it is affecting. On the the other hand, there can be some concrete steps that can be taken to alleviate the problem in US. More education and training would help the displaced folks better adapt to the changing landscape. Did you know that only 7% of native born Californians go to graduate school? Government should invest in infrastructure or give tax incentives to companies investing in infrastructure. Building infrastructure provides base on which innovation flourishes. There should be pressure built on foreign governments to play by the rules. For instance, if a country were to have fixed currency instead of allowing it float, then it is using unfair practices. Allowing currencies to float in countries where the outsourced jobs are landing would increase their buying power and the cost differential goes down very quickly. This country (USA) has always been on the cutting edge of innovation for generations. They have always managed to come up with the next level of innovation to come out on tops. They have been doing it for years and there is no reason to believe that it won't happen again. Don't listen to all the doom and gloom being spewed. Vinay Bannai
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Then you all need to stop purchasing from Dell, IBM, HP, Cisco, et al. Of course. Don't purchase from DELL, purchase from ServersDirect. Don't purchase from HP, purchase (for home) from brand-less or E-Machine. Don't purchase from EMC, purchase from Adap. Are any idiots here, who purchase CA Unicenter? etc... Btw, I do not deal with Bank Of America; I deal with Patelco CU. (But I deal with Safeway and walMart -:)). It's not about outsourcing, through, it's about _BIG, OLD, and FAT_ brands. Cisco was the only one who keeps going as a startup for more than 5 - 7 years; but now (few years) they behave as a _BIG, FAT and OLD brand_ (not in everything, they still have a lot of drive). (Compare - AX100 from AMC and FS4500 from Adaptec. Compare server frm DELL and server from SuperMicro... Comp[are RedHat linux and SuSe linux. The same happen with Cisco; knowing their internal athmosphere, which changed dramatically - I should not want to work for them, no I bet on their long life). They've all outsourced quite a bit to the third world. 90% of the parts for any of this stuff come from Asia. The US has lost more manufacturing jobs in the last 3 years then the previous 22. There are 18% fewer tech jobs in this country than there were 4 years ago. You'll also need to stop dealing with Citicorp and Bank of America and the rest of the big financial companies that have moved IT operations to Bangalor or deal with companies like Keane that do as much as possible offshore. Motorola is moving RD to China (tantamount to giving away military secrets). I can go on. Those last two statements don't make much sense to me. The way to fix things is to remove the incentives to move the jobs overseas in the first place. Fair trade, not free trade. Joseph wrote: [snip] We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Pure free market capitalism has no concept fairness and equity and no room for correcting the drastic changes that can sometimes cause great societal costs. Capitalism is not inherently bad but it is an imperfect system in need of much guidance. Historically the only way this system has been improved is by Labor action, political involvement and transparent government. Getting upset about job losses is useless and futile we need to take action! Don't Support Outsourcing Don't buy from companies that outsource US jobs. Be very vocal and call and mail these companies and let them know you will not support them. Let them know you are watching what they are doing and will vote with your Dollars. Check out the site below to look up any company. http://www.workingamerica.org/ Be Politically Active Be politically aware and active! Remain politically active and tell your state local politician and the president that they need to be protective of American jobs and leveling the playing field in world wide labor market. Check out these links http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/outsourcedebate.html http://www.workingamerica.org/ Just my 2 cents. =)
RE: Cisco moves even more to china.
Without getting into the entire conceptual argument about capitalism in general and why some semi-sane economic decisions are made... What is it that makes you think that boycotting a company (particularly one the size or deployment of Cisco and/or Juniper) would make someone say "oh, I'm sorry, it looks like we made a bad decision in saving some money"??? Now, let's also go back and look at the original post. Cisco is putting in what? $32 million. in the grand scheme of things, just what kind of impact do you really believe this is going to have? Committing to training people in another country is not a commitment to abandon jobs elsewhere. Look at the economics of how much the Chinese market is growing. Or should we handle all of that extra work in supporting that country's expanding market with jobs already here in the US (or wherever). Oh wait, don't many US folks already complain about the down-, right-, left-, some-direction-sizing that's going on and how overworked they may be? There are SOME areas where the outsourcing may hit a chord, and everyone is always welcome to their soapbox. I just don't think it really applies to the particulars that were announced here, and certainly not to this level. As ANY good job-seeker should realize, it's all about economics. So make yourself a more marketable or valuable person than others. Whether through certifications (not starting this war) or experiences or the ability to demonstrate business prowess along with technical skills... But where do we draw the line? Almost ANY electronics company uses non-American parts. Many clothing manufacturers use off-shore assembly. Everyone is entitled to desire purchasing locally-produced goods only, but at the same time it's hard to justify complaining about how much more expensive some of those items may be! It's everywhere As long as there are options, it'll never change. We see the shift now because of the ease of travel and shipping and ubiquitous communications (oh damn, that means were in an industry that may have helped this "evil" trend). It's economic destiny, which means to fight it we need to make the overall economic choice one that leans our direction (whever that "our" may be). But simply complaining about it is the easy part. Figuring out the "why" and then working to make the decision better to go a different direction is harder. Business decisions, like routes, have metrics. Figure out what they are and change them if desired. but it's not nearly as simple! Scott From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JosephSent: Friday, September 24, 2004 7:19 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: Cisco moves even more to china. Hello Erik, Although I agree with you on many points I think its time people stop complaining and take action. My point was not to idly complain about the outsourcing trend and claim that protectionism is the answer but, to ask if there is a better way to deal with the long term trend for ALL of us. Boycotting is just one way to send a message rather than simply complaining. Your perception of Americans I think is very skewed by the media. You obviously did not read my post and wanted take a cheap shot. Many Americans like myself have always been fighting for equity, fairness and democracy from the beginning in all our activities. Try not to equate a people with what you read and hear in the media and realize they have much more diversity of opinion than is portrayed therein. I argue we BOTH American and international workers (that means you) need to change the system so that we are all treated fairly. I don't think this is an off the wall ideal. But to each his own. Hmmm. I had no idea there were only 2 networking companies, 1 database and 1 OS. =) With the rich competitive nature of the market I will continue to support companies which conform to a baseline of ethical business practice for all workers worldwide. With deepest respect, JErik Haagsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote: Its time for all American Tech workers to stand up and let our voices be heard.Perhaps it's time instead to make sure you're good at what you do andtry to be on the forefront of tech, rather than whining about how allthose bad people from abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our ownfault labour pricing in large outsourcing countries like India are solow, and now it's coming back to bite some of us. We as world citizens need to come to grips with the fact that we must compete with workers internationally but we should be doing so on FAIR playing field. Strangely people only start calling for a level, fair playing field whenthey feel something's threatening their own little piece of the cake. Ifmost companies and governments we're happy to work for wouldn't havebeen undermining other people's economies for ages, we
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Nicole wrote: Lovely, Just lovely. Just heard On CNN, Lou Dobbs. (but can't find it on their site) Well if Lou Dobbs said it on the air, then it must be true...
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
The current wave of outsourcing is driven by greed and greed alone. What's going on now would make Gordon Gekko blush. There is nothing stopping the companies from paying the workers in India or China the prevailing wage in the developed countries which would really accelerate growth in these countries and would have the side effect of making the playing field level as in let the best engineer win rather than the cheapest. Right now outsourcers are moving jobs from India to Bangladesh and Africa because wages and the standard of living in India is rising so the Indians are seeing what we see here in the US. What is often forgotten is that innovation in an industry comes from its practitioners not a collective of marketing types and systems archetects. So by outsourcing we are sending the wellspring of innovation and the attendant wealth creation elsewhere. Scott C. McGrath On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Robin Lynn Frank wrote: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:49:54 +0100 (IST) Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Modern capitalism does create a race to the bottom effect for labor which seems to have no end. This race exists because of imbalances in prosperity in world. This race exists because governments beholden to corporate interests, permit it to exist. A US company that sacrifices the welfare of US workers for the sake of its bottom line, or to curry favor with a foreign government, is not one I care to do business with. I usually lurk, not post. I just needed to say this. -- Robin Lynn Frank Director of Operations Paradigm-Omega, LLC http://www.paradigm-omega.com == Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Weekly Routing Table Report
This is an automated weekly mailing describing the state of the Internet Routing Table as seen from APNIC's router in Japan. Daily listings are sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any comments please contact Philip Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Routing Table Report 04:00 +10GMT Sat 25 Sep, 2004 Analysis Summary BGP routing table entries examined: 147727 Prefixes after maximum aggregation: 87611 Unique aggregates announced to Internet: 70315 Total ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 18109 Origin-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 15745 Origin ASes announcing only one prefix:7345 Transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:2364 Transit-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 73 Average AS path length visible in the Internet Routing Table: 4.7 Max AS path length visible: 22 Prefixes from unregistered ASNs in the Routing Table:12 Special use prefixes present in the Routing Table:0 Prefixes being announced from unallocated address space: 17 Number of addresses announced to Internet: 1340351908 Equivalent to 79 /8s, 228 /16s and 37 /24s Percentage of available address space announced: 36.2 Percentage of allocated address space announced: 58.4 Percentage of available address space allocated: 61.9 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 67875 APNIC Region Analysis Summary - Prefixes being announced by APNIC Region ASes:28428 Total APNIC prefixes after maximum aggregation: 14225 Prefixes being announced from the APNIC address blocks: 26595 Unique aggregates announced from the APNIC address blocks:14165 APNIC Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:2131 APNIC Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix:635 APNIC Region transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:325 Average APNIC Region AS path length visible:4.8 Max APNIC Region AS path length visible: 22 Number of APNIC addresses announced to Internet: 163812992 Equivalent to 9 /8s, 195 /16s and 150 /24s Percentage of available APNIC address space announced: 74.7 APNIC AS Blocks4608-4864, 7467-7722, 9216-10239, 17408-18431 23552-24575 APNIC Address Blocks 58/7, 60/7, 202/7, 210/7, 218/7, 220/7 and 222/8 ARIN Region Analysis Summary Prefixes being announced by ARIN Region ASes: 84217 Total ARIN prefixes after maximum aggregation:51327 Prefixes being announced from the ARIN address blocks:64419 Unique aggregates announced from the ARIN address blocks: 22785 ARIN Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 9575 ARIN Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix:3429 ARIN Region transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 916 Average ARIN Region AS path length visible: 4.4 Max ARIN Region AS path length visible: 18 Number of ARIN addresses announced to Internet: 232724224 Equivalent to 13 /8s, 223 /16s and 23 /24s Percentage of available ARIN address space announced: 69.4 ARIN AS Blocks 1-1876, 1902-2042, 2044-2046, 2048-2106 2138-2584, 2615-2772, 2823-2829, 2880-3153 3354-4607, 4865-5119, 5632-6655, 6912-7466 7723-8191, 10240-12287, 13312-15359, 16384-17407 18432-20479, 21504-23551, 25600-26591, 26624-27647,29695-30719, 31744-33791 ARIN Address Blocks24/8, 63/8, 64/6, 68/7, 70/7, 72/8, 198/7, 204/6, 208/7 and 216/8 RIPE Region Analysis Summary Prefixes being announced by RIPE Region ASes: 27363 Total RIPE prefixes after maximum aggregation:19057 Prefixes being announced from the RIPE address blocks:24203 Unique aggregates announced from the RIPE address blocks: 15867 RIPE Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 5845 RIPE Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix:3144 RIPE Region transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:1002 Average RIPE Region AS path length visible: 5.3 Max RIPE Region AS path length visible: 21 Number of RIPE addresses announced to Internet: 171842624 Equivalent to 10 /8s, 62 /16s and 28 /24s Percentage
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Robin Lynn Frank wrote: This race exists because of imbalances in prosperity in world. This race exists because governments beholden to corporate interests, permit it to exist. No, with free trade, it exists because of imbalance. Unless of course you are completely against free trade, and hence blame the government for not tariffing the problem out of existence - which of course means you end-up paying more for your clothes, food, oil, computers, etc. Which means growth in your economy slows down, your stocks dont do as well, etc... A US company that sacrifices the welfare of US workers for the sake of its bottom line, or to curry favor with a foreign government, is not one I care to do business with. See Suresh's post, what do you do for clothes? BTW, I work for an American technology company. I'm probably doing a job that would otherwise be done by an American (or, at least, a US resident, good few of my colleagues in the US are not of american origin), and I'm probably doing it for a lower salary than an american would - and that's despite fact that cost of living in my country is at least comparable to that in the USA (if possibly even slightly higher). But think to yourself, what happens to the profits made by american multinational, US parented, companies? regards, -- Paul Jakma [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Left to themselves, things tend to go from bad to worse.
Re: APNIC Privacy of customer assignment records - implementation update
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2004-09-24, at 00.18, Joe Abley wrote: On 23 Sep 2004, at 18:06, Matt Ghali wrote: Effectively none. APNIC has always served out unverified and obvious garbage from their whois servers. And they are different from every other RIR in this respect how? ...or IANA... - - kurtis - -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 8.1 iQA/AwUBQVRzf6arNKXTPFCVEQJVDQCfYo4ZSyj7ijSO6odKaHvj0Jj6a4QAn0By MnesyKtas9ePPbPTMEV/ABUD =ExFG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
On 24-Sep-04 the GW commando coersion squad reported Peter Galbavy said : Nicole wrote: So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. There is an implicit assumption here that the objective of 100% of these trainees will be to move as economic migrants to the West. Wrong folks. Very very wrong. Notice how China as a *consumer* is growing faster than anyone else around ? While there may well be some (what's the right word ?) retro-sourcing of cheap labour into the US (and the EU), I suspect that once any initial levelling of the field happens, there will be just as much, if not more, movement the other way. China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The company that claims it runs the internet (or some such phrase) is now saying we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs. China is very very good and writing into their contacts that most all training and workers are Chineese. No one can reasonably assume that any number larger than you have fingers and toes will be imported to work on Cisco gear. Let alone any other networking. What company woudl not want to hire someone who puts on his resume helped configure and work on the largest new networking buildout since 1993. Or trained in Cisco training center. Now yes, some of that money will eeek its way back into the hands of the American companies. But with their seting themselves up offshore to avoid taxes and re-investing into China etc and feeding their economy. After they pay their million dollar salary's how much do you think trickles back down to us? Btw the best definition I ever heard of trickle down economy was from Bill Maher who said its like a eufamism for being peed on from above. of Gosh we have so much money to hold.. some may fall through as we try to hang onto it all.. so you can have that. Much like scraps for the pet dog. Yes it may hit China eventually like it did with Japan that our futures are linked. But China is playing things close to the chest. They really don't need to import much so they are not so linked to us during their growth. They don't really buy much from us. What they Have to buy they seem to be counterfitting or getting cheaply or just plain ol stealing as far as technology goes. There is a lot of jingoistic rhetoric here, and not enough rational thought about the objective - building big networks in the biggest economy of the near future. Yes, but it will be done by the chineese. You won't see more than a handfull of people their. Probobly mostly the execs smiling about their payoff and planned happy retirement. PS I hate *all* certification with a passion, regardless of level and including things like my BSc which was just a great excuse to drink lots for a few years. The person doing the selection of candidates should have enough expertise themselves to make a rational judgement based on a face to face interview. If Cisco was sex there would be 90% fewer babies! You need a manual even for something basic and you can't do much more without loads of training. It's what assured and kept most networking people fat and happy. It's not some windows based thing that can be additionally assigned to bob in accounting when he's not busy. But when a company can find a way to cut costs. They will! Becouse we as Americans are lazy and complacent and most don't even know what's going on in the world. The most amazing thing to me is the concept that someone actually had a house, a car, was married with kids and supported them well by owning a hat store! Nicole Peter -- |\ __ /| (`\ | o_o |__ ) ) // \\ - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Powered by FreeBSD - -- The term daemons is a Judeo-Christian pejorative. Such processes will now be known as spiritual guides - Politicaly Correct UNIX Page Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems. - Linus Torvalds
Re: Cisco moves even more to china.
Thus spake Nicole [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 24-Sep-04 the GW commando coersion squad reported Peter Galbavy said : Nicole wrote: So.. I guess we will be cranking out those H1b's...Plan to kiss your raises and or jobs bye bye to some specialized cheap imported Cisco trained networking person from China. There is an implicit assumption here that the objective of 100% of these trainees will be to move as economic migrants to the West. Wrong folks. Very very wrong. Notice how China as a *consumer* is growing faster than anyone else around ? While there may well be some (what's the right word ?) retro-sourcing of cheap labour into the US (and the EU), I suspect that once any initial levelling of the field happens, there will be just as much, if not more, movement the other way. China is a communist and closed loop society. Thats teh real problem. The company that claims it runs the internet (or some such phrase) is now saying we prefer communist China than America and American Jobs. Cisco investing 0.1% of their revenue into China is hardly a preference for that country over America. They spend more than that buying (er, contributing to campaigns for) politicians in the US. This bashing of overseas workers always comes down to Americans not willing to accept that demanding obscene salaries will lose them jobs when there are people elsewhere willing to work for four figures (or even three); welcome to Supply and Demand 101. Also, having worked there at the time, Cisco started moving sustaining work on IOS to India because American coders simply refused to work on bug-fixing projects and demanded assignments working on new features. If the cost of hiring Americans is hundreds of times more, why would any sane company insist on hiring more Americans -- if they can even find any to do the work? The problem with China and several other countries in that region is the fact the people are effectively slave laborers -- assigned to jobs by (in effect) a military dictatorship and jailed or executed if they complain about the work or wages. We would be rightfully outraged if this were happening in the US, and IMHO this is the _only_ legitimate reason to complain about Cisco's investment in that particular country. Cisco's also in a rough position. Investors and analysts expect Cisco to maintain 70% margins overall, and customers want lower prices and more aggressive discounts or they'll go to competitors. The only way Cisco can make both sides happy is to find cheaper labor, hence India, Mexico, and China. Before you complain about this, take a close look at your 401k and see how much money you have invested in Cisco -- you're probably part of the problem, if only indirectly. China is very very good and writing into their contacts that most all training and workers are Chineese. No one can reasonably assume that any number larger than you have fingers and toes will be imported to work on Cisco gear. Let alone any other networking. That's standard practice in int'l business. Many European countries require that on-site techs, engineers, etc. be citizens of that country. The US Govt even does the same on many contracts, requiring foreign companies hire a certain percentage of US citizens to work on the project. What company woudl not want to hire someone who puts on his resume helped configure and work on the largest new networking buildout since 1993. Or trained in Cisco training center. When I'm hiring folks, all I care about is whether they're competent at the particular job I have a req for. Typically that requires skills far above anything offerred in a Cisco training class; CCNAs in particular are a pain to hire since so much of the training is outdated or downright wrong. S Stephen Sprunk God does not play dice. --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSSdice at every possible opportunity. --Stephen Hawking
Re: how much routed IP is PI?
Does anyone have a ballpark figure for how much of what's currently in the routing table is provider independent? Are there systematic variations in PI IP availability between ARIN, RIPE, and APNIC? thanks, Tom
