Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Good B7971s?

[NeonJohn]

On 03/11/2016 05:56 PM, Nick wrote:
> It's pretty much impossible to re-gas a nixie, not to mention being
> dangerous due to the Hg.

There is no danger in the tiny amount of mercury involved.
> 
> I tried doing this with an outgassed tube helped by a really expert
> hot-glass specialist.
> 
> We failed, probably on the annealing. The glass cracked.

Probably a coefficient of expansion (COE) problem between the glass of
the nixie envelope and the tubulation you sealed onto it.

It is very likely that your expert glass specialist was used to working
with boro glass with a COE in the 10 range.  Low power tubes usually use
leaded glass with a COE of around 90.  more than about 5 points
difference and it WILL crack, regardless of the annealing.

The way to tell leaded glass is to look for dark and/or reflective
stains on the tubulation tip-off and around the pin header to envelope seal.

I've repaired a number of vacuum tubes and mercury rectifier but being a
neonist, I'm used to 90 COE leaded glass.

The way to determine the compatibility of two glasses is to take two
pieces (say, the tip-off bit left after diamond sawing the tubulation
tip-off from the bad nixie) of the glass and hold touching each other
with stainless needlenose pliers or hemostats.  Place the pieces in the
fire and heat the tip of a glass rod compatible with the known glass.

When the glass has softened, touch the soft end of the glass rod to the
combo.  Fire strongly and pull out to a fine thread.  The known glass
will be on one side and the unknown on the other.

If the thread cools straight then the glasses are compatible.  If the
thread curves away from the axis, then the glasses are not compatible.
The thread will curve toward the glass with the highest COE.

Sometimes a transition glass can be used.  Uranium glass is a good
transition between leaded and harder glass.  That's why you often see
bright green beads of glass around the pins of larger vacuum tubes.

Many high power vacuum tubes use boro glass for the envelope.  There is
no good sealing glass compatible with boro up to vacuum tube standards
so U glass is used as a transition between the boro and the glass on the
pins.

I would not be at all hesitant to repair a Nixie, especially if I had
another one just like it that was scrap that I could use the envelope
glass to determine compatibility.

John



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[neonixie-l] Re: Good B7971s?

[Nick]

It's pretty much impossible to re-gas a nixie, not to mention being dangerous 
due to the Hg.

I tried doing this with an outgassed tube helped by a really expert hot-glass 
specialist.

We failed, probably on the annealing. The glass cracked.

Nick

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[neonixie-l] Re: Good B7971s?

[Jonathan F.]

I wonder how hard it would be to open up the tube maybe a 3mm Hole, and 
then try to move the segments with a wire, and reseal the tube.

just a thought.. but getting the right amount and type of glass in would be 
very difficult. 

Am Dienstag, 8. März 2016 18:32:50 UTC+1 schrieb Nick:
>
>
> On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 17:21:10 UTC, Jonathan F. wrote:
>>
>> I have only 5 of them, one has a bottom segmet that illuminate a orange 
>> cloud around it, possibly touching the grid or the back. I will try to 
>> smack it.
>>
>> Btw... what kind of gasses were used in these tubes? At which pressure?
>>
>
> Neon with a small amount of Argon (maybe 5%) and possibly a trace of 
> Mercury (nearly all later tubes have Hg doping - it almost eliminates 
> sputtering and thus drastically improves the life of the tube). Pressure is 
> between 5 & 30 Torr (about 1/25th of an atmosphere).
>
> HTH
>
> Nick  
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Used or NOS?

[Alic]

Very nice videos, thanks!
This explains a lot!

Yes, I thought it was strange that the mirroring was only underneath and not 
near the numerals, where the sputtering would usually deposit.

This seems to be specific to this model of nixie though or are there others?

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Used or NOS?

[Michail1 via neonixie-l]

Flashing the getter is what makes the mirroring.  Many people think  the 
black or mirror means the tube is used, but it's part of the manufacturing  
process.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQBmt-z0w9g
 
A really good video is by "How It's Made"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOR6Pn-tGPo
Getter flashing at 4:25 -- It's worth watching the 5 min vid.
 
Michail  


 
In a message dated 3/11/2016 10:15:07 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
al...@gmx.net writes:

I did  not have a chance to test them and measure the voltage and current  
yet.

I'm wondering what that mirroring people are talking about looks  like? 
There is definitely some reflecting deposit on the glass on the lower  part of 
the tube (see the last pictures I  posted).



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Re: [neonixie-l] Have few questions about the NIXIE watch...

[Dan Harboe Burer]

..or an SMT mounted hall/magnetic sensor. I have seen some quite small ones at 
work.

Dan

From: Scott Davis 
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 7:15 PM
To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Have few questions about the NIXIE watch...

Hello:

Another alternative to the photo sensor might be, if space permits, a reed 
relay.   That was how the LED Pulsar watches did it.  They had a little magnet 
the was stored "stuck" to a bit of the band metal.



On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 9:05 AM, gregebert  wrote:

  There's no such thing as a 'cheap nixie watch'.  It's a lot of work to design 
one that has long battery-life and reliability, and you will spend many, many 
hours perfecting the design of the DC-DC converter, board layout, and 
debugging. Even after 2 years of design work & debug, I found that mine wasn't 
rugged enough (died after being carried in my backpack for 2 weeks) even though 
it functioned correctly and has excellent battery life. 

  Regarding waterproofing, I'd suggest a photosensor, rather than switches, to 
set the time/date. The intent on my watch was to use metal contacts on the 
sealed case to provide access to the battery for charging. If you go that 
route, you *MUST* put a diode and a fuse in the path to the battery; imagine 
what would happen if the charging contacts got shorted-out. Unfortunately, I 
rushed the final assembly on my watch-case, and one of the battery 
charging-contacts is loose, so I cant recharge it. Oh yeah, the case is glued 
shut so I have to cut apart the handmade plexiglass case that took many hours 
to build & polish. Gr..


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Re: [neonixie-l] Have few questions about the NIXIE watch...

[Scott Davis]

Hello:

Another alternative to the photo sensor might be, if space permits, a reed
relay.   That was how the LED Pulsar watches did it.  They had a little
magnet the was stored "stuck" to a bit of the band metal.



On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 9:05 AM, gregebert  wrote:

> There's no such thing as a 'cheap nixie watch'.  It's a lot of work to
> design one that has long battery-life and reliability, and you will spend
> many, many hours perfecting the design of the DC-DC converter, board
> layout, and debugging. Even after 2 years of design work & debug, I found
> that mine wasn't rugged enough (died after being carried in my backpack for
> 2 weeks) even though it functioned correctly and has excellent battery life.
>
> Regarding waterproofing, I'd suggest a photosensor, rather than switches,
> to set the time/date. The intent on my watch was to use metal contacts on
> the sealed case to provide access to the battery for charging. If you go
> that route, you *MUST* put a diode and a fuse in the path to the battery;
> imagine what would happen if the charging contacts got shorted-out.
> Unfortunately, I rushed the final assembly on my watch-case, and one of the
> battery charging-contacts is loose, so I cant recharge it. Oh yeah, the
> case is glued shut so I have to cut apart the handmade plexiglass case that
> took many hours to build & polish. Gr..
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Used or NOS?

[Alic]

I did not have a chance to test them and measure the voltage and current yet.

I'm wondering what that mirroring people are talking about looks like? There is 
definitely some reflecting deposit on the glass on the lower part of the tube 
(see the last pictures I posted).

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Used or NOS?

[Nicholas Stock]

Unless they come wrapped in original boxes, then that's a hard thing to
determine. Even then, you have to take the seller's word for it. If all the
digits illuminate well at the rated voltage and current and there's no
visible darkening or mirroring (this can be quite obvious in well used
nixies), then that's as good as it's going to get I think. There are some
used tubes that will still last years and years and some that don't last
long at all (IN-1's, IN-2's...in my experience...).

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Alic  wrote:

> I'm sure they're working fine. That's why I also bought used ones.
> But when I pay for NOS, I would also like to receive NOS.
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Used or NOS?

[Alic]

I'm sure they're working fine. That's why I also bought used ones.
But when I pay for NOS, I would also like to receive NOS.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Used or NOS?

[Alic]

My photo-skills are not very good, sorry.
It's really more greyish and on some parts its mirror or chrome-like.
I joined some more picture.
It appears on all 122P224 I have. Always on the same parts of the tube : on 
the bottom part and along the wires. The thing is, that some nixies are 
from Sphere, sold as used and some from eBay, supposed to be NOS...
They all look the same!


 

 


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[neonixie-l] Re: Charlieplexing and Ghosting

[Ross H]

Just wondering what you use to clean the flux off the board? I have one of 
your kits and have tried all other suggestions, resistor substitutions etc. 
for getting rid of ghosting with no real success. I love the clock and all 
it can do but the ghosting is a little annoying. 

Thanks...

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 8:22:11 PM UTC-5, threeneurons wrote:
>
> Well I'll go to the end, with the solution ... Clean your Boards 
>
> Back to the beginning. I'd been selling some multplexed nixie kits for 
> close to a year and a half, now. It uses a unique form of multiplexing 
> called "Charlieplexing", invented at Microchip. There it was used for 
> driving LEDs. A clever member of this forum (when it was back at Yahoo), 
> named Jason Harper saw that it could also be used to drive the base-emitter 
> junctions of transistors, back ~2003. For our pleasure, base-emitter 
> junctions, of HV transistors. In short, charlieplexing nixie tubes. That's 
> what I incorporated in my kit.
>
> One important issue with charlieplexing, is that it can only be done with 
> uC tri-state I/O bits. It needs the I/O bit to not just output a one (1) or 
> zero (0), but also present a high-impedance (Hi-Z). With charlieplexing, 
> only one "node" (p-n, or base-emitter junction) of its matrix can be active 
> at any time. One output issuing a "0", while another issuing a "1", with 
> the rest "inactive" and presenting their Hi-Z state (DDR bit set to 
> "input"). This becomes a key to the problem later.
>
> Multiplexing, in general, and not just charlieplexing, can exhibit a 
> problem called "ghosting". This is when more than one numeral appears to be 
> ON at any time. Usually, the intended numeral is on brightly, while a 
> second numeral is only slightly glowing in the background. Hence the term, 
> ghosting. It can have multiple causes, that usually boil down to something 
> being ON at the wrong time. A timing issue. This isn't an issue with direct 
> drive displays, since they don't rely on timing.
>
> Now to the problem at hand, and its inadvertent solution. A customer 
> returns a board (for evaluation) on what's causing his ghosting problem. I 
> turn it on to confirm the problem ... yep, ghosting. Pretty severe, too. I 
> examine the board visually, but all the parts are in the right place, and 
> the solder joints look okay. So, before probing around further, I decide to 
> clean off the flux residue. When I'm done, I let it dry for a half hour, 
> before applying power. Turn it On ... no ghosting. Apparently, the flux 
> residue (and whatever contaminants it trapped) was conductive enough, to 
> turn ON, inactive "nodes" (transistors). 
>
> In conclusion, clean the flux residue off the board !
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Used or NOS?

[gregebert]

Test them and watch for incomplete illumination, or blackness inside the 
glass.
---
My experience with Burroughs nixies is that the 5092's are *very* reliable; 
I've never had one fail even after several years. These tubes contain 
mercury, so it's possible that's what you see on the glass. Many of my 
5092's have no known history, so I assume many of them were used. They 
still work fine.

I've had one 6091 fail, and it is blackened on the inside of the glass 
after 1 year of usage. None of my other Burroughs nixies are blackened, so 
I suspect that this tube had excessive cathode sputtering. Most likely it 
was a manufacturing anomaly.

Beware of Burroughs 5031 tubes. They are earlier-generation than the 5092, 
and I have several that don't illuminate properly. Even attempting to 
depoison them with excess current made no improvement. I suspect they have 
leaked some of their neon gas over time, and that newer-generation tubes 
improved the metal-to-glass sealing. Remember that we're talking about 
tubes made 50+ years ago, so it's rather amazing they still work after all 
that time.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Used or NOS?

[Michail1 via neonixie-l]

Well, silver is normal to new tubes when the getter is flashed; however, I  
don't see the silver on the picture.
 
What I do see appears to be white.  When the silver turns white, it  means 
the tube has leaked out.  Maybe a crack?
 
It's possible my eyes are misleading me, but isn't that white?
 
Michail
 
 

In a message dated 3/11/2016 9:09:05 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
al...@gmx.net writes:

"silvering" on the side and below (see  photos).

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[neonixie-l] Used or NOS?

[Alic]

Hello everyone,

I've recently started to seriously collect nixies.
As they become less available (and more expensive), the chances to get used 
tubes sold as NOS increase.

I've bought some "NOS" 122P224 off eBay and I'm pretty sure they're 
actually used, because of the "silvering" on the side and below (see 
photos).

There are probably already a lot of posts on here explaining how to 
identify used nixies (visually and by measuring).
I've searched but without much success. Could someone please point me in 
the right direction? I don't want to falsely accuse the eBay seller...

Thanks.

Alic





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Re: [neonixie-l] Have few questions about the NIXIE watch...

[gregebert]

There's no such thing as a 'cheap nixie watch'.  It's a lot of work to 
design one that has long battery-life and reliability, and you will spend 
many, many hours perfecting the design of the DC-DC converter, board 
layout, and debugging. Even after 2 years of design work & debug, I found 
that mine wasn't rugged enough (died after being carried in my backpack for 
2 weeks) even though it functioned correctly and has excellent battery life.

Regarding waterproofing, I'd suggest a photosensor, rather than switches, 
to set the time/date. The intent on my watch was to use metal contacts on 
the sealed case to provide access to the battery for charging. If you go 
that route, you *MUST* put a diode and a fuse in the path to the battery; 
imagine what would happen if the charging contacts got shorted-out. 
Unfortunately, I rushed the final assembly on my watch-case, and one of the 
battery charging-contacts is loose, so I cant recharge it. Oh yeah, the 
case is glued shut so I have to cut apart the handmade plexiglass case that 
took many hours to build & polish. Gr..

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Re: [neonixie-l] Have few questions about the NIXIE watch...

[David Forbes]

I found solutions to those problems myself.

You can find those solutions yourself.


On 3/11/16 12:39 AM, vfdclock wrote:

I am trying to design a cheap NIXIE watch etc.,have checked a few exist
design,and currently seems
http://www.cathodecorner.com/nwl/nwld-mod-top.jpg
looks not bad,and the circuit is easy for us to do.and I have few questions
about the component if the guys who have already had the watch like this
,hope can answer my questions.
Acoording to the pic,the socket of the tube in the pic looks like a regular
2.0mm female pin socket,would please confirm it,because we have tried, it
seems the legs can be installed tightly inside the regular 2.0mm squire pin
socket.Any suggestions?
And seems with a USB socket on the side is not a good design,that hard to
do the waterproof,if we design the outside power pins under the bottom of
the PCB and connect with the pins under the watch case ,will be good?(may
need extra special wire for cherging)
Or if have any more suggestions please sya it out.

Best reagrds.




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David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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Re: [neonixie-l] Have few questions about the NIXIE watch...

[Michail1 via neonixie-l]

Wireless charging would make it waterproof.
 
Michail  
 


In a message dated 3/11/2016 3:00:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
yend...@internode.on.net writes:

I think he described/discussed the waterproofing  a while back - search the 
posts for it.
 
John  k


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Re: [neonixie-l] Have few questions about the NIXIE watch...

[JohnK]

I think he described/discussed the waterproofing a while back - search the 
posts for it.

John k
  - Original Message - 
  From: vfdclock 
  To: neonixie-l 
  Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 6:09 PM
  Subject: [neonixie-l] Have few questions about the NIXIE watch...


  I am trying to design a cheap NIXIE watch etc.,have checked a few exist 
design,and currently seems 
  http://www.cathodecorner.com/nwl/nwld-mod-top.jpg
  looks not bad,and the circuit is easy for us to do.and I have few questions 
about the component if the guys who have already had the watch like this ,hope 
can answer my questions.
  Acoording to the pic,the socket of the tube in the pic looks like a regular 
2.0mm female pin socket,would please confirm it,because we have tried, it seems 
the legs can be installed tightly inside the regular 2.0mm squire pin 
socket.Any suggestions?
  And seems with a USB socket on the side is not a good design,that hard to do 
the waterproof,if we design the outside power pins under the bottom of the PCB 
and connect with the pins under the watch case ,will be good?(may need extra 
special wire for cherging)
  Or if have any more suggestions please sya it out.

  Best reagrds.

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"neonixie-l" group.
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