Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[John Rehwinkel]

> Otherwise, is there anybody out there familiar with chemical etching 
> stainless?

Not much to it - it's like etching a printed circuit board.  Coat with resist, 
expose to pattern, develop, etch.
Places like Micro-Mark sell kits to do this:

http://www.micromark.com/micro-mark-pro-etch-photo-etch-system,8346.html

The main difference is both sides of the metal have to be treated.  I'd suggest 
covering both sides with resist,
and only dissolving away the pattern on one side.  That way, you don't have to 
worry about registration, although
there will be some undercutting.

- John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[Michael Gregg]

I agree with threeneurons that cuts down to that distance apart are
going to be iffy.

I know that there are companies that laser cut solder stencils with
machines like I have, though, they might be using a different laser head
than the one I cut with.

So, Dalibor, I'll contact you offline with my address, but I already
have some rather thin stainless sheet that I can try to cut with.

I don't know if it will work, but it's worth a shot.

Otherwise, is there anybody out there familiar with chemical etching
stainless?

Michael-


On 01/28/2013 06:22 PM, threeneurons wrote:
> I use to work closely with the laser people. Use to cut stainless (316
> & 304) down to around 0.010" (0,25mm). Should be able to do 0,1mm
> thick, but cuts 0,4mm (0.016") apart, is going to be iffy.
>
>
> On Monday, January 28, 2013 4:09:44 AM UTC-8, Dalibor wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> the numbers for nixi tubes is one of the problem I havent
> sufficiently solved yet. Are your laser cutters able to produce
> numbers that have 0.4mm wide lines? The material would be 0.1mm
> thick stainless steel sheet (316L).
>
> I could send You some sheets to give it a try, just send me your
> address ;-)
>
> Thank You!
>
> Dalibor
>
> 2013/1/27 michael gregg >
>
> Sounds good. And yes, other people that have made nixie tubes
> do seem
> to be getting good results with the level of vacuum that you are
> getting.
>
> Also, I have all sorts of crazy laser cutters here. I may be
> able to
> come up with a good stack of numbers or other characters if
> you'd like
> them for your nixie tubes. I have never cut anything so fine with
> these lasers, but according to the manufacturer, I should be
> able to
> do it.
>
> I am not sure where I would get tiny ceramic separators though.
>
> I am excited to see your results.
>
> Michael-
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:14 AM, jb-electronics
> > wrote:
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > yes, I will document everything on my website. In fact, most
> of it is
> > already done, but right now I am writing the vacuum system
> part and I want
> > to document all the steps that I did until now. And now it
> is far from
> > perfect. So I will show all different setups and number
> them. My current
> > setup is setup number III.
> >
> > It won't be long ;-)
> >
> > Jens
> >
> >
> >> On 01/25/2013 03:52 PM, jb-electronics wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi folks,
> >>>
> >>> I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a
> little slow
> >>> at the moment because I switched my university and I am
> currently sort
> >>> of living in two cities ;-)
> >>>
> >>> However, today I had some time so I took a look at my
> vacuum system.
> >>> My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my
> pump at a
> >>> pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to
> 20mbar in 20
> >>> minutes. So there was a leak.
> >>>
> >>> I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter,
> needle
> >>> valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
> >>> pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s,
> 600s, 1200s
> >>> and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient
> greasing on
> >>> my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is that it
> is not
> >>> airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You have
> to (gently)
> >>> adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get a leakage
> rate of
> >>> just 1.2 琨ar/s which is very low.
> >>>
> >>> My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage
> rate now is
> >>> Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my
> results here:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
> 
> >>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png
> 
> >>>
> >>> Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be
> multiplied with 65ml.
> >>>
> >>> The next step will be to find a good connection to the
> pressure
> >>> reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose
> (terrible),
> >>> and I have huge leakage rates.
> >>>
> >>> But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
> >>>
> >>> Jens
> >>>
> >> Very cool.
> >>
> >> So the leakage rate seems pretty low, but I'd

Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[David Forbes]

On 1/28/13 6:36 PM, John Rehwinkel wrote:

Yes, I think the original nixie tubes were made by photo etching.. There is so 
much work on the tubes (or just preparing the stuff for now) that I would be 
very glad to get rid of one problem - making the number for nixie tubes.. But I 
am afraid I will have to photo-etch the anode grid anyway, I cant imagine the 
laser cutter making it


If you're photoetching the anodes anyway, may as well do 'em all at once:

http://www.vitriol.com/images/tech/nixies/cathodes2.png

- John



John,

Don't forget the upside-down 8 in the middle of the stack, connected to 
the anode.


--
David Forbes, Tucson AZ

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[threeneurons]

I use to work closely with the laser people. Use to cut stainless (316 & 
304) down to around 0.010" (0,25mm). Should be able to do 0,1mm thick, but 
cuts 0,4mm (0.016") apart, is going to be iffy.


On Monday, January 28, 2013 4:09:44 AM UTC-8, Dalibor wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> the numbers for nixi tubes is one of the problem I havent sufficiently 
> solved yet. Are your laser cutters able to produce numbers that have 0.4mm 
> wide lines? The material would be 0.1mm thick stainless steel sheet (316L).
>
> I could send You some sheets to give it a try, just send me your address 
> ;-)
>
> Thank You!
>
> Dalibor
>
> 2013/1/27 michael gregg >
>
>> Sounds good. And yes, other people that have made nixie tubes do seem
>> to be getting good results with the level of vacuum that you are
>> getting.
>>
>> Also, I have all sorts of crazy laser cutters here. I may be able to
>> come up with a good stack of numbers or other characters if you'd like
>> them for your nixie tubes. I have never cut anything so fine with
>> these lasers, but according to the manufacturer, I should be able to
>> do it.
>>
>> I am not sure where I would get tiny ceramic separators though.
>>
>> I am excited to see your results.
>>
>> Michael-
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:14 AM, jb-electronics
>> > wrote:
>> > Hi Michael,
>> >
>> > yes, I will document everything on my website. In fact, most of it is
>> > already done, but right now I am writing the vacuum system part and I 
>> want
>> > to document all the steps that I did until now. And now it is far from
>> > perfect. So I will show all different setups and number them. My current
>> > setup is setup number III.
>> >
>> > It won't be long ;-)
>> >
>> > Jens
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 01/25/2013 03:52 PM, jb-electronics wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi folks,
>> >>>
>> >>> I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow
>> >>> at the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort
>> >>> of living in two cities ;-)
>> >>>
>> >>> However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system.
>> >>> My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a
>> >>> pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20
>> >>> minutes. So there was a leak.
>> >>>
>> >>> I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle
>> >>> valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
>> >>> pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s
>> >>> and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient greasing on
>> >>> my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is that it is not
>> >>> airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You have to (gently)
>> >>> adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get a leakage rate of
>> >>> just 1.2 琨ar/s which is very low.
>> >>>
>> >>> My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is
>> >>> Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
>> >>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png
>> >>>
>> >>> Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with 
>> 65ml.
>> >>>
>> >>> The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure
>> >>> reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible),
>> >>> and I have huge leakage rates.
>> >>>
>> >>> But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
>> >>>
>> >>> Jens
>> >>>
>> >> Very cool.
>> >>
>> >> So the leakage rate seems pretty low, but I'd be concerned about the
>> >> total vacuum that your system can accomplish.
>> >>
>> >> Although I have never built nixie tubes myself, I did a good amount of
>> >> research to go down that road.
>> >>
>> >> My research came up with some claims that you need to get down in the
>> >> 10E-6 torr before the fill for good results with a nixie tube.
>> >>
>> >> Anyhow, please keep a image journal of your work. It looks like a great
>> >> deal of fun.
>> >>
>> >> Michael-
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups
>> > "neonixie-l" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an
>> > email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com .
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>> .
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>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
> -- 
> Dalibor Farny
> http://dalibor.farny.cz
>
> 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[John Rehwinkel]

> Yes, I think the original nixie tubes were made by photo etching.. There is 
> so much work on the tubes (or just preparing the stuff for now) that I would 
> be very glad to get rid of one problem - making the number for nixie tubes.. 
> But I am afraid I will have to photo-etch the anode grid anyway, I cant 
> imagine the laser cutter making it

If you're photoetching the anodes anyway, may as well do 'em all at once:

http://www.vitriol.com/images/tech/nixies/cathodes2.png

- John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[kay486]

Im not sure, but i think you might be able to make the grid from multiple 
horizontal wires that would be spot-welded together. Something like the 
ZM1175 or ZM1210 have. It really depends oh how well you could weld 
multiple wirest at once.

On Monday, 28 January 2013 19:45:45 UTC, Dalibor wrote:
>
> Yes, I think the original nixie tubes were made by photo etching.. There 
> is so much work on the tubes (or just preparing the stuff for now) that I 
> would be very glad to get rid of one problem - making the number for nixie 
> tubes.. But I am afraid I will have to photo-etch the anode grid anyway, I 
> cant imagine the laser cutter making it ;-)
>
> Dalibor
>
> 2013/1/28 John Rehwinkel >
>
>> > the numbers for nixi tubes is one of the problem I havent sufficiently 
>> solved yet. Are your laser cutters able to produce numbers that have 0.4mm 
>> wide lines? The material would be 0.1mm thick stainless steel sheet (316L).
>>
>> I had been planning to photoetch mine, but a laser cutter should be able 
>> to do a good job.  It would also probably be possible with a water jet 
>> cutter, but I don't think any of our members have access to one.
>>
>> - John
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "neonixie-l" group.
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>> neoni...@googlegroups.com
>> .
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>> neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com .
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Dalibor Farny
> http://dalibor.farny.cz
>
>  

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[Dalibor Farný]

Yes, I think the original nixie tubes were made by photo etching.. There is
so much work on the tubes (or just preparing the stuff for now) that I
would be very glad to get rid of one problem - making the number for nixie
tubes.. But I am afraid I will have to photo-etch the anode grid anyway, I
cant imagine the laser cutter making it ;-)

Dalibor

2013/1/28 John Rehwinkel 

> > the numbers for nixi tubes is one of the problem I havent sufficiently
> solved yet. Are your laser cutters able to produce numbers that have 0.4mm
> wide lines? The material would be 0.1mm thick stainless steel sheet (316L).
>
> I had been planning to photoetch mine, but a laser cutter should be able
> to do a good job.  It would also probably be possible with a water jet
> cutter, but I don't think any of our members have access to one.
>
> - John
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "neonixie-l" group.
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>
>
>


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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[John Rehwinkel]

> the numbers for nixi tubes is one of the problem I havent sufficiently solved 
> yet. Are your laser cutters able to produce numbers that have 0.4mm wide 
> lines? The material would be 0.1mm thick stainless steel sheet (316L).

I had been planning to photoetch mine, but a laser cutter should be able to do 
a good job.  It would also probably be possible with a water jet cutter, but I 
don't think any of our members have access to one.

- John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[Dalibor Farný]

One more thing - I would also provide the layout,

Dalibor

2013/1/28 Dalibor Farný 

> Hi Michael,
>
> the numbers for nixi tubes is one of the problem I havent sufficiently
> solved yet. Are your laser cutters able to produce numbers that have 0.4mm
> wide lines? The material would be 0.1mm thick stainless steel sheet (316L).
>
> I could send You some sheets to give it a try, just send me your address
> ;-)
>
> Thank You!
>
> Dalibor
>
> 2013/1/27 michael gregg 
>
>> Sounds good. And yes, other people that have made nixie tubes do seem
>> to be getting good results with the level of vacuum that you are
>> getting.
>>
>> Also, I have all sorts of crazy laser cutters here. I may be able to
>> come up with a good stack of numbers or other characters if you'd like
>> them for your nixie tubes. I have never cut anything so fine with
>> these lasers, but according to the manufacturer, I should be able to
>> do it.
>>
>> I am not sure where I would get tiny ceramic separators though.
>>
>> I am excited to see your results.
>>
>> Michael-
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:14 AM, jb-electronics
>>  wrote:
>> > Hi Michael,
>> >
>> > yes, I will document everything on my website. In fact, most of it is
>> > already done, but right now I am writing the vacuum system part and I
>> want
>> > to document all the steps that I did until now. And now it is far from
>> > perfect. So I will show all different setups and number them. My current
>> > setup is setup number III.
>> >
>> > It won't be long ;-)
>> >
>> > Jens
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 01/25/2013 03:52 PM, jb-electronics wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi folks,
>> >>>
>> >>> I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow
>> >>> at the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort
>> >>> of living in two cities ;-)
>> >>>
>> >>> However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system.
>> >>> My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a
>> >>> pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20
>> >>> minutes. So there was a leak.
>> >>>
>> >>> I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle
>> >>> valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
>> >>> pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s
>> >>> and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient greasing on
>> >>> my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is that it is not
>> >>> airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You have to (gently)
>> >>> adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get a leakage rate of
>> >>> just 1.2 琨ar/s which is very low.
>> >>>
>> >>> My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is
>> >>> Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
>> >>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png
>> >>>
>> >>> Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with
>> 65ml.
>> >>>
>> >>> The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure
>> >>> reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible),
>> >>> and I have huge leakage rates.
>> >>>
>> >>> But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
>> >>>
>> >>> Jens
>> >>>
>> >> Very cool.
>> >>
>> >> So the leakage rate seems pretty low, but I'd be concerned about the
>> >> total vacuum that your system can accomplish.
>> >>
>> >> Although I have never built nixie tubes myself, I did a good amount of
>> >> research to go down that road.
>> >>
>> >> My research came up with some claims that you need to get down in the
>> >> 10E-6 torr before the fill for good results with a nixie tube.
>> >>
>> >> Anyhow, please keep a image journal of your work. It looks like a great
>> >> deal of fun.
>> >>
>> >> Michael-
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> > "neonixie-l" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an
>> > email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dalibor Farny
> http://dalibor.farny.cz
>
>


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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi Michael,

the numbers for nixi tubes is one of the problem I havent sufficiently
solved yet. Are your laser cutters able to produce numbers that have 0.4mm
wide lines? The material would be 0.1mm thick stainless steel sheet (316L).

I could send You some sheets to give it a try, just send me your address ;-)

Thank You!

Dalibor

2013/1/27 michael gregg 

> Sounds good. And yes, other people that have made nixie tubes do seem
> to be getting good results with the level of vacuum that you are
> getting.
>
> Also, I have all sorts of crazy laser cutters here. I may be able to
> come up with a good stack of numbers or other characters if you'd like
> them for your nixie tubes. I have never cut anything so fine with
> these lasers, but according to the manufacturer, I should be able to
> do it.
>
> I am not sure where I would get tiny ceramic separators though.
>
> I am excited to see your results.
>
> Michael-
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:14 AM, jb-electronics
>  wrote:
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > yes, I will document everything on my website. In fact, most of it is
> > already done, but right now I am writing the vacuum system part and I
> want
> > to document all the steps that I did until now. And now it is far from
> > perfect. So I will show all different setups and number them. My current
> > setup is setup number III.
> >
> > It won't be long ;-)
> >
> > Jens
> >
> >
> >> On 01/25/2013 03:52 PM, jb-electronics wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi folks,
> >>>
> >>> I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow
> >>> at the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort
> >>> of living in two cities ;-)
> >>>
> >>> However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system.
> >>> My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a
> >>> pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20
> >>> minutes. So there was a leak.
> >>>
> >>> I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle
> >>> valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
> >>> pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s
> >>> and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient greasing on
> >>> my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is that it is not
> >>> airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You have to (gently)
> >>> adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get a leakage rate of
> >>> just 1.2 琨ar/s which is very low.
> >>>
> >>> My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is
> >>> Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
> >>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png
> >>>
> >>> Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with
> 65ml.
> >>>
> >>> The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure
> >>> reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible),
> >>> and I have huge leakage rates.
> >>>
> >>> But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
> >>>
> >>> Jens
> >>>
> >> Very cool.
> >>
> >> So the leakage rate seems pretty low, but I'd be concerned about the
> >> total vacuum that your system can accomplish.
> >>
> >> Although I have never built nixie tubes myself, I did a good amount of
> >> research to go down that road.
> >>
> >> My research came up with some claims that you need to get down in the
> >> 10E-6 torr before the fill for good results with a nixie tube.
> >>
> >> Anyhow, please keep a image journal of your work. It looks like a great
> >> deal of fun.
> >>
> >> Michael-
> >>
> >
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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[John Rehwinkel]

> Also, I have all sorts of crazy laser cutters here. I may be able to
> come up with a good stack of numbers or other characters if you'd like
> them for your nixie tubes. I have never cut anything so fine with
> these lasers, but according to the manufacturer, I should be able to
> do it.

Cool.  Let me know if you want help with layout.  I made a run at it a while 
back:

http://www.vitriol.com/images/tech/nixies/cathodes.gif

> I am not sure where I would get tiny ceramic separators though.

I actually got a quote from a ceramic firm for tiny ceramic rings for this 
purpose,
but it was prohibitive.  I think glass or mica separators might be the way to go
initially.

> I am excited to see your results.

As am I!

- John

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[michael gregg]

Sounds good. And yes, other people that have made nixie tubes do seem
to be getting good results with the level of vacuum that you are
getting.

Also, I have all sorts of crazy laser cutters here. I may be able to
come up with a good stack of numbers or other characters if you'd like
them for your nixie tubes. I have never cut anything so fine with
these lasers, but according to the manufacturer, I should be able to
do it.

I am not sure where I would get tiny ceramic separators though.

I am excited to see your results.

Michael-


On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:14 AM, jb-electronics
 wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> yes, I will document everything on my website. In fact, most of it is
> already done, but right now I am writing the vacuum system part and I want
> to document all the steps that I did until now. And now it is far from
> perfect. So I will show all different setups and number them. My current
> setup is setup number III.
>
> It won't be long ;-)
>
> Jens
>
>
>> On 01/25/2013 03:52 PM, jb-electronics wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow
>>> at the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort
>>> of living in two cities ;-)
>>>
>>> However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system.
>>> My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a
>>> pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20
>>> minutes. So there was a leak.
>>>
>>> I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle
>>> valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
>>> pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s
>>> and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient greasing on
>>> my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is that it is not
>>> airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You have to (gently)
>>> adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get a leakage rate of
>>> just 1.2 琨ar/s which is very low.
>>>
>>> My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is
>>> Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:
>>>
>>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
>>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png
>>>
>>> Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with 65ml.
>>>
>>> The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure
>>> reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible),
>>> and I have huge leakage rates.
>>>
>>> But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
>>>
>>> Jens
>>>
>> Very cool.
>>
>> So the leakage rate seems pretty low, but I'd be concerned about the
>> total vacuum that your system can accomplish.
>>
>> Although I have never built nixie tubes myself, I did a good amount of
>> research to go down that road.
>>
>> My research came up with some claims that you need to get down in the
>> 10E-6 torr before the fill for good results with a nixie tube.
>>
>> Anyhow, please keep a image journal of your work. It looks like a great
>> deal of fun.
>>
>> Michael-
>>
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[jb-electronics]

Hi Michael,

yes, I will document everything on my website. In fact, most of it is 
already done, but right now I am writing the vacuum system part and I 
want to document all the steps that I did until now. And now it is far 
from perfect. So I will show all different setups and number them. My 
current setup is setup number III.


It won't be long ;-)

Jens


On 01/25/2013 03:52 PM, jb-electronics wrote:

Hi folks,

I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow
at the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort
of living in two cities ;-)

However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system.
My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a
pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20
minutes. So there was a leak.

I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle
valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s
and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient greasing on
my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is that it is not
airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You have to (gently)
adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get a leakage rate of
just 1.2 琨ar/s which is very low.

My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is
Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:

http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png

Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with 65ml.

The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure
reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible),
and I have huge leakage rates.

But as always: One thing at a time ;-)

Jens


Very cool.

So the leakage rate seems pretty low, but I'd be concerned about the
total vacuum that your system can accomplish.

Although I have never built nixie tubes myself, I did a good amount of
research to go down that road.

My research came up with some claims that you need to get down in the
10E-6 torr before the fill for good results with a nixie tube.

Anyhow, please keep a image journal of your work. It looks like a great
deal of fun.

Michael-



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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[jb-electronics]

Hi Dalibor,

what do You think by the "insufficient greasing on my needle valve"? 
The rubber o-ring used to connect the valve to the system was not 
greased properly?


yes, there was some fibre or something hair-like that caused a small leak.

I think that the valve stem is not fully pressed to the valve seat 
when set to zero, when You screw it further below zero, it gets full 
contact with valve seat this making thight seal.


Yes, that is exactly what happened. I just assumed that the scale 
position "0" implied that it was fully in its seat. It is connected 
properly (the needle towards the vacuum, it is a rectangular configuration).


By the way, how long did You pump the system before closing and making 
the test?


About 10 minutes. I did a second test today and pumped it for 20 minutes 
and the result is much much better (half the leakage rate, Q = 2E-6 mbar 
l/s).


I guess that this is as good as it is going to get with my two-stage 
pump. On the long run I will purchase an oil diffusion pump, but not 
now. As Dalibor explained later, this pressure range is fine for testing 
and making Neon experiments.


What pressures are You going to achieve for pumping the nixies before 
filling by gas?


7E-3 mbar is the best I have achieved so far.

What valve do You use for isolating the system from vacuum pump (is it 
the ball valve we discussed recently)?


The ball valve is leaking, I proved that with another curve. No, I am 
using a bellow valve that Ron got for me. He is great. I don't know what 
I would do without his help.


Now I need to connect the pressure reducer next.

Jens



Dalibor



2013/1/26 jb-electronics >


Hi folks,

I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little
slow at the moment because I switched my university and I am
currently sort of living in two cities ;-)

However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum
system. My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my
pump at a pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to
20mbar in 20 minutes. So there was a leak.

I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle
valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s,
1200s and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient
greasing on my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is
that it is not airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You
have to (gently) adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get
a leakage rate of just 1.2 µbar/s which is very low.

My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate
now is Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my
results here:

http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png

Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied
with 65ml.

The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure
reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose
(terrible), and I have huge leakage rates.

But as always: One thing at a time ;-)

Jens

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[Dalibor Farný]

Hello Michael,

10E-6 torr is not necessary. For testing purposes is 10-2 torr enough,
because then the tube is filled to somewhere  around 30 torr what is much
higher pressure.. The initial pressure is not so critical in nixie tubes,
but influeces the total lifetime of the tube.. However it would be better
to use at least 10-4 torr for real production..

Dalibor

2013/1/26 Michael Gregg 

> On 01/25/2013 03:52 PM, jb-electronics wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow
> > at the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort
> > of living in two cities ;-)
> >
> > However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system.
> > My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a
> > pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20
> > minutes. So there was a leak.
> >
> > I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle
> > valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
> > pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s
> > and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient greasing on
> > my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is that it is not
> > airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You have to (gently)
> > adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get a leakage rate of
> > just 1.2 琨ar/s which is very low.
> >
> > My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is
> > Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:
> >
> > http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
> > http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png
> >
> > Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with 65ml.
> >
> > The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure
> > reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible),
> > and I have huge leakage rates.
> >
> > But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
> >
> > Jens
> >
>
> Very cool.
>
> So the leakage rate seems pretty low, but I'd be concerned about the
> total vacuum that your system can accomplish.
>
> Although I have never built nixie tubes myself, I did a good amount of
> research to go down that road.
>
> My research came up with some claims that you need to get down in the
> 10E-6 torr before the fill for good results with a nixie tube.
>
> Anyhow, please keep a image journal of your work. It looks like a great
> deal of fun.
>
> Michael-
>
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> "neonixie-l" group.
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>
>
>


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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[Michael Gregg]

On 01/25/2013 03:52 PM, jb-electronics wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow
> at the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort
> of living in two cities ;-)
>
> However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system.
> My problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a
> pressure of 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20
> minutes. So there was a leak.
>
> I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle
> valve) by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the
> pressure after 10s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s
> and plotted them. I realised that there was insufficient greasing on
> my needle valve, and the most interesting thing is that it is not
> airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero. You have to (gently)
> adjust it below the scale zero point. Then I get a leakage rate of
> just 1.2 琨ar/s which is very low.
>
> My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is
> Q = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:
>
> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage.png
> http://www.jb-electronics.de/tmp/leakage_extensive.png
>
> Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with 65ml.
>
> The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure
> reducer for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible),
> and I have huge leakage rates.
>
> But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
>
> Jens
>

Very cool.

So the leakage rate seems pretty low, but I'd be concerned about the
total vacuum that your system can accomplish.

Although I have never built nixie tubes myself, I did a good amount of
research to go down that road.

My research came up with some claims that you need to get down in the
10E-6 torr before the fill for good results with a nixie tube.

Anyhow, please keep a image journal of your work. It looks like a great
deal of fun.

Michael-

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Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[Dalibor Farný]

I am not sure if the picture is visible, so it is attached..

Dalibor

2013/1/26 Dalibor Farný 

> Hello Jens,
>
> pretty sophisticaed way of leak detection ;-)
>
> what do You think by the "insufficient greasing on my needle valve"? The
> rubber o-ring used to connect the valve to the system was not greased
> properly? Or something else?
>
> "it is not airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero" - does it
> really let the outside air inside the system? I think that the valve stem
> is not fully pressed to the valve seat when set to zero, when You screw it
> further below zero, it gets full contact with valve seat this making thight
> seal. Do You have the needle valve connected in right direction? To the
> vacuum system should be connected the line what is on the left on that
> picture:
>
>
>
> By the way, how long did You pump the system before closing and making the
> test? I am also strugling with pressure rise, but it is caused by
> outgassing of the materials inside the system - it goes from 5x10-3 torr to
> 5x10-2 in 10 minutes and to 5x10-1 overnight, and all this pressure rise is
> caused only by outgassing of rubber rings, air trapped in the metal surface
> and so.. Let the pump run for one hour and then close it and do the test.
> Or pump the system to 10-2 torr, close it, let it hold the pressure
> overnight and then measure it. What pressures are You going to achieve for
> pumping the nixies before filling by gas?
>
> What valve do You use for isolating the system from vacuum pump (is it the
> ball valve we discussed recently)?
>
> Dalibor
>
>
>
> 2013/1/26 jb-electronics 
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow at
>> the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort of
>> living in two cities ;-)
>>
>> However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system. My
>> problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a pressure of
>> 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20 minutes. So there
>> was a leak.
>>
>> I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle valve)
>> by replacing them with a blind flange and recording the pressure after 10s,
>> 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s and plotted them. I
>> realised that there was insufficient greasing on my needle valve, and the
>> most interesting thing is that it is not airtight if the scale is adjusted
>> to just zero. You have to (gently) adjust it below the scale zero point.
>> Then I get a leakage rate of just 1.2 µbar/s which is very low.
>>
>> My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is Q
>> = 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:
>>
>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/**tmp/leakage.png
>> http://www.jb-electronics.de/**tmp/leakage_extensive.png
>>
>> Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with 65ml.
>>
>> The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure reducer
>> for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible), and I have
>> huge leakage rates.
>>
>> But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
>>
>> Jens
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "neonixie-l" group.
>> To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscribe@**
>> googlegroups.com .
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>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dalibor Farny
> http://dalibor.farny.cz
>
>


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http://dalibor.farny.cz

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<>

Re: [neonixie-l] Vacuum system - status report

[Dalibor Farný]

Hello Jens,

pretty sophisticaed way of leak detection ;-)

what do You think by the "insufficient greasing on my needle valve"? The
rubber o-ring used to connect the valve to the system was not greased
properly? Or something else?

"it is not airtight if the scale is adjusted to just zero" - does it really
let the outside air inside the system? I think that the valve stem is not
fully pressed to the valve seat when set to zero, when You screw it further
below zero, it gets full contact with valve seat this making thight seal.
Do You have the needle valve connected in right direction? To the vacuum
system should be connected the line what is on the left on that picture:



By the way, how long did You pump the system before closing and making the
test? I am also strugling with pressure rise, but it is caused by
outgassing of the materials inside the system - it goes from 5x10-3 torr to
5x10-2 in 10 minutes and to 5x10-1 overnight, and all this pressure rise is
caused only by outgassing of rubber rings, air trapped in the metal surface
and so.. Let the pump run for one hour and then close it and do the test.
Or pump the system to 10-2 torr, close it, let it hold the pressure
overnight and then measure it. What pressures are You going to achieve for
pumping the nixies before filling by gas?

What valve do You use for isolating the system from vacuum pump (is it the
ball valve we discussed recently)?

Dalibor



2013/1/26 jb-electronics 

> Hi folks,
>
> I am still working on Nixie tubes, but I have to take it a little slow at
> the moment because I switched my university and I am currently sort of
> living in two cities ;-)
>
> However, today I had some time so I took a look at my vacuum system. My
> problem was that even after I closed the valve to my pump at a pressure of
> 1.5E-2 mbar, the pressure would rise up to 20mbar in 20 minutes. So there
> was a leak.
>
> I then checked every part of my system (swagelok adapter, needle valve) by
> replacing them with a blind flange and recording the pressure after 10s,
> 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 120s, 300s, 600s, 1200s and plotted them. I
> realised that there was insufficient greasing on my needle valve, and the
> most interesting thing is that it is not airtight if the scale is adjusted
> to just zero. You have to (gently) adjust it below the scale zero point.
> Then I get a leakage rate of just 1.2 µbar/s which is very low.
>
> My system has a volume of at most (!) 65ml, so the leakage rate now is Q =
> 5.4E-6 mbar l/s which is pretty good I think. See my results here:
>
> http://www.jb-electronics.de/**tmp/leakage.png
> http://www.jb-electronics.de/**tmp/leakage_extensive.png
>
> Note that the Q value in these diagrams needs to be multiplied with 65ml.
>
> The next step will be to find a good connection to the pressure reducer
> for my gas bottle. Right now I am using a PVC hose (terrible), and I have
> huge leakage rates.
>
> But as always: One thing at a time ;-)
>
> Jens
>
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-- 
Dalibor Farny
http://dalibor.farny.cz

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