Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
On Friday 06 Feb 2004 11:19 am, John Richard Smith wrote: Hi Robert, Yes OK then, have done that, Incidentally the replacement is a new straight out of the box 350W, nothing special, as to make, just kept as a spare for just such test purposes. Unforetunately it makes no difference at all. The first cpu was a quite new item in itself and the reason I didn't suspect it. I don't really suspect the PSU. Always open to correction though. I still have instability in high load Mandrake cpu situations. I have to underclock the FSB rate to achieve stability in M9.1, not in W2K though, and so I get ribbed by my family, I'm seen as a Linux geek to everyone around me. Though I noticed one of my daughters has recently started using xcdroast a lot , say's it works great. Oh well, great things from small beginnings, do proceed. You know it's a confidence thing ! But I digress. Yesterday I reseated the heatsink for the 'n'th time. This time I deliberately bent the retaining clip so as to exert more retention thrust onto the cpu, in otherwords the it took more of a push to retain the clip to the cpu. Current results are:- FSB100 == startup/desktop Full CPU load cpu 34C/41C 49C Case25C/30C 35C fan 3624 3668 Vc1.74 1.74 Vh1.25 1.24 Vp3.315 3.37 4.85 4.84 12.3 12.3 -12.40-12.40 -5.07 -5.07 These are not bad temperatures to my mind. The full load(99%) is achieved by running a mencoder job rather than mprime. Seems like clip retention pressure makes a difference But no need to exagerate it ! I am currently unable to attain desktop in FSB133 I get boot messages, ide task - not syncing stack ( loads of number) calltime kernel panic, killing interupts handler-not syncing Food for thought there don't you think ? CPU temp is well within tollerances now and was withing AMD's own tollerances anyway. PSU probably fine. I'm open minded about memory, though it will pass the memtest. I haven't the faintest idea what syncing is about ? Guess that is the next thing to find out about. John Sorry John, I didn't realise that Windows was running OK... (I presume it runs OK at full CPU load.) Have you tried running a different distro (say Koppix from CD)? Is ACPI enabled? Try switching this setting on. What kernel are U using? I presume it is 2.4.x series :-) Is it stock or custom? You might try a custom kernel with ACPI statically linked and APM left out completely (APM can potentially clash - although I think this problem is fixed now in the 2.4.x kernel). Does dmesg have anything useful in it? Maybe you could post it here? Whats lurking in your /proc/ directories (interrupts, pci, etc.)? I am just clutching a straws here but it does sound like the Linux interrupt hander is shagged. So first place to check is ACPI settings I guess... Robert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
On Wednesday 04 Feb 2004 9:08 pm, John Richard Smith wrote: I agree with what Tom is saying. But a CPU that isn't overvolted or overclocked should be OK at an idle temperature of 48C. I would still suspect a PSU issue. Its worth checking by borrowing someone else's just to rule this out. Modern PC components draw massive amounts of current in surges. If your PSU lets the voltage drop slightly too much when this happens (ie not matching the ATX standard of -+5% tolerance) then you get system instability. Just my $0.02. Robert I don't suppose there is a way of testing that in some way. Could I set up a test rig to record power surges in overload use, or something. to hell if it surges and siezes up. as long as I've some stats to analise and present a case, if only to myself. gkrellm does running voltages, but I find reading them near impossible. Sensors does one time reports I can read, but not running voltages. I don't mind condeming equipement, but I don't like, condeming without reason. I've got spare PSU's that's no problem, but what is there to say the replacement is not just as bad ? John Hi John, You said that the problems happened when the system was under a bit of stress (high CPU load). I would trying using some of your spare PSU's under these conditions. You probably won't see the problems in the voltage under any system monitoring software (they may be of too short a duration - if they are occurring at all). You aren't trying to do a double blind placebo trial here You just want a PC that works!! (PS thats one way to define the difference between an engineer and a scientist :-) So just try out the other dodgy PSU's. If they haven't been used to much they should be fine. The cheaper ones do seem to wear out over time :-) Everything in your system depends on stable voltages from the PSU (RAM, MB and CPU) so it is the lowest common denominator for system stability!! Robert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
On Tuesday 03 February 2004 05:03 pm, John Richard Smith wrote: No mine is a heat transfer problem that I want to improve.I think the 7CM fan provides enough volume of air but the heat is not being transfered quickly enough to the airflow. That's why I am considering a copper base heatsink, but it's nice to hear from people who have experienced these things ahead of me. I've never used a copper based heatsink. It seems to me these heatsinks have a terribly difficult job to do, the cpu which is only about 10 mm square generates a lot of heat and that has to be whipped away pronto through solid metal. I guess the fins have to be really cold to generate a cross flow of heat energy. It's incredible it works at all. If your interested to know more about the two heatsinks I mention above just type the model number into google. John IME, case air flow is much more important than the cpu heatsink/fan used, or whether it's copper or aluminum. The main reason to use thermal grease instead of a thermal pad, is the pads deteriorate over time. The hotter the cpu, the faster they fail. I've even seen some that were burned to a crisp. My current cpu is an XP 3000+, default is 2166Mhz. I had it oc'd to 2366Mhz and 1.75Vcore for several months, solid as a rock. Usin an el cheap $5 Speeze aluminum cooler that came bundled with the cpu/ motherboard. At 100% load it never got over 48C. Generic thermal grease, I've never used the kiddie popular expensive stuff like Artic Silver. Unfortunately the system became very unstable. I had to underclock it to 1.4Ghz and it'd still error, freeze, lockup, or random reboot itself. I endured that for quite a while till I settled on the (Aopen) motherboard as the culprit. First component I've ever ruined in many years of oc'ing to the max. When I bought a new (Asus) motherboard, I included a $30 K7 Volocano+ Xaser Edition (p/n A1725) solid copper cooler with a 80x80x25 mm fan on it with the order. It comes with an optional fan speed control which I didn't use. Running the fan at 100% rpm all the time. I also keep fan bios settings at 100% as I did with the previous motherboard. I used the grease that came with the Volcano. This is the first time I've ever used anything but a cheap generic cooler. It's also the first copper one. The cpu is now oc'd to 2250Mhz (13x173FSB), 1.67 Vcore and at 100% load the cpu never gets over 48C. IOW's the same damn temps I got with the cheap aluminum cooler. Case is still cooled as it was before, it's open on both sides and on top. Necessary as it's against an outside wall in a cubby hole underneath the (booth style) table and seats I have in my travel trailer. For cooling, the most important requisite is to keep case temp at room temp. Any decent cooler will do, as long as it's firmly and squarely in contact with the greased cpu die. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
Tom Brinkman wrote: Unfortunately the system became very unstable. I had to underclock it to 1.4Ghz and it'd still error, freeze, lockup, or random reboot itself. I endured that for quite a while till I settled on the (Aopen) motherboard as the culprit. First component I've ever ruined in many years of oc'ing to the max. When I bought a new (Asus) motherboard, I included a $30 K7 Volocano+ Xaser Edition (p/n A1725) solid copper cooler with a 80x80x25 mm fan on it with the order. It comes with an optional fan speed control which I didn't use. Running the fan at 100% rpm all the time. I also keep fan bios settings at 100% as I did with the previous motherboard. I used the grease that came with the Volcano. This is the first time I've ever used anything but a cheap generic cooler. It's also the first copper one. The cpu is now oc'd to 2250Mhz (13x173FSB), 1.67 Vcore and at 100% load the cpu never gets over 48C. IOW's the same damn temps I got with the cheap aluminum cooler. Case is still cooled as it was before, it's open on both sides and on top. Necessary as it's against an outside wall in a cubby hole underneath the (booth style) table and seats I have in my travel trailer. For cooling, the most important requisite is to keep case temp at room temp. Any decent cooler will do, as long as it's firmly and squarely in contact with the greased cpu die. That is so interesting Tom, I had wondered whether most of this attention to make and model would be mostly hype. I currently have an all ally evercool ND15-715CA it has a 70mm fan controlled by bios. I think the airflow seems good. No reason to think it is getting trapped. The only thing about this heatsink that has me questioning it is the power of the retention spring clip itself. Compared to other makes and models I've fitted before, the retention clips are too easy to fit to the cpu. No, I hear you say, so what. Well the heatsink , if you notice carefully, sits in situe on 4 small rubber grommits about 3mm each in diameter.So the heatsink has to be held really firmly against them to make the heatsink BED down flush onto the cpu. If insufficient pressure is exerted by the retention clip there might be a possibility of the heatsink not fitting flush onto the cpu. I know, the heatsink paste ought to take care of it but maybe not enough ? It's only a thought. I already have both the case sides off , don't make much difference though, about -1C is all I get overall on the case temperature. Case airflow is in at the front low down under the harddrives and out either through the PSU, or a vent in the rear of the case undet the PSU. Entirely conventional in layout. I have no means of removing the top. I don't know what else I can do without getting surgical . The computer sits on my bench beside me which means about as good a spot as I will get for general room airflow. So what I'm reading from your experience seems to suggest I ought to be getting better general temperatures than I am getting, but with the one possiblity of the strength of the retention clips , I cannot see what I'm doing differently from you and yet I would feel more comfortable if my cpu temps were held well withing the 40 to 48 range under all load conditions. Hmm. John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
On Wednesday 04 February 2004 09:47 am, John Richard Smith wrote: The only thing about this heatsink that has me questioning it is the power of the retention spring clip itself. Compared to other makes and models I've fitted before, the retention clips are too easy to fit to the cpu. I'd question that also. Every heatsink I've fitted to an AMD needed the aid of a flat blade screw driver to force the remaining clip to engage. While making sure the heatsink is square with the die. The AMD pads on the cpu only aid in this after the HS/fan are fitted. Which is the reason oem's and manufacturers favor the pad. Less likely to cause damage the cpu during inept heatsink installation. Weaker retention clips can be used. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
On Wednesday 04 Feb 2004 3:47 pm, John Richard Smith wrote: That is so interesting Tom, I had wondered whether most of this attention to make and model would be mostly hype. I currently have an all ally evercool ND15-715CA it has a 70mm fan controlled by bios. I think the airflow seems good. No reason to think it is getting trapped. The only thing about this heatsink that has me questioning it is the power of the retention spring clip itself. Compared to other makes and models I've fitted before, the retention clips are too easy to fit to the cpu. No, I hear you say, so what. Well the heatsink , if you notice carefully, sits in situe on 4 small rubber grommits about 3mm each in diameter.So the heatsink has to be held really firmly against them to make the heatsink BED down flush onto the cpu. If insufficient pressure is exerted by the retention clip there might be a possibility of the heatsink not fitting flush onto the cpu. I know, the heatsink paste ought to take care of it but maybe not enough ? It's only a thought. I already have both the case sides off , don't make much difference though, about -1C is all I get overall on the case temperature. Case airflow is in at the front low down under the harddrives and out either through the PSU, or a vent in the rear of the case undet the PSU. Entirely conventional in layout. I have no means of removing the top. I don't know what else I can do without getting surgical . The computer sits on my bench beside me which means about as good a spot as I will get for general room airflow. So what I'm reading from your experience seems to suggest I ought to be getting better general temperatures than I am getting, but with the one possiblity of the strength of the retention clips , I cannot see what I'm doing differently from you and yet I would feel more comfortable if my cpu temps were held well withing the 40 to 48 range under all load conditions. Hmm. John John I agree with what Tom is saying. But a CPU that isn't overvolted or overclocked should be OK at an idle temperature of 48C. I would still suspect a PSU issue. Its worth checking by borrowing someone else's just to rule this out. Modern PC components draw massive amounts of current in surges. If your PSU lets the voltage drop slightly too much when this happens (ie not matching the ATX standard of -+5% tolerance) then you get system instability. Just my $0.02. Robert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
Robert Walker wrote: On Wednesday 04 Feb 2004 3:47 pm, John Richard Smith wrote: That is so interesting Tom, I had wondered whether most of this attention to make and model would be mostly hype. I currently have an all ally evercool ND15-715CA it has a 70mm fan controlled by bios. I think the airflow seems good. No reason to think it is getting trapped. The only thing about this heatsink that has me questioning it is the power of the retention spring clip itself. Compared to other makes and models I've fitted before, the retention clips are too easy to fit to the cpu. No, I hear you say, so what. Well the heatsink , if you notice carefully, sits in situe on 4 small rubber grommits about 3mm each in diameter.So the heatsink has to be held really firmly against them to make the heatsink BED down flush onto the cpu. If insufficient pressure is exerted by the retention clip there might be a possibility of the heatsink not fitting flush onto the cpu. I know, the heatsink paste ought to take care of it but maybe not enough ? It's only a thought. I already have both the case sides off , don't make much difference though, about -1C is all I get overall on the case temperature. Case airflow is in at the front low down under the harddrives and out either through the PSU, or a vent in the rear of the case undet the PSU. Entirely conventional in layout. I have no means of removing the top. I don't know what else I can do without getting surgical . The computer sits on my bench beside me which means about as good a spot as I will get for general room airflow. So what I'm reading from your experience seems to suggest I ought to be getting better general temperatures than I am getting, but with the one possiblity of the strength of the retention clips , I cannot see what I'm doing differently from you and yet I would feel more comfortable if my cpu temps were held well withing the 40 to 48 range under all load conditions. Hmm. John John I agree with what Tom is saying. But a CPU that isn't overvolted or overclocked should be OK at an idle temperature of 48C. I would still suspect a PSU issue. Its worth checking by borrowing someone else's just to rule this out. Modern PC components draw massive amounts of current in surges. If your PSU lets the voltage drop slightly too much when this happens (ie not matching the ATX standard of -+5% tolerance) then you get system instability. Just my $0.02. Robert I don't suppose there is a way of testing that in some way. Could I set up a test rig to record power surges in overload use, or something. to hell if it surges and siezes up. as long as I've some stats to analise and present a case, if only to myself. gkrellm does running voltages, but I find reading them near impossible. Sensors does one time reports I can read, but not running voltages. I don't mind condeming equipement, but I don't like, condeming without reason. I've got spare PSU's that's no problem, but what is there to say the replacement is not just as bad ? John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
Ignore the past and you will fail Ignore the future and you have already failed. - Original Message - From: John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NEWBIE 1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:45 Subject: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory CPU temperatures and cooling issues+ memory === I decided to start this thread again. The precious thread had become a bit rambling. Well, My cpu / heatsink and case temperatures are still regarded by the techies at AMD as withing tollerances. I am not happy with the conclusion though. These are:-- Case temp 28C with CPU temp of 49/50C on normal desktop loads. Case temp 28/32C CPU temp of 56.5 on 99% Loads (and siezure) I am not happy with these temps. I would like to see case temps of 28C constant and cpu temps of low 40's rising to middle/upper 40's under full load scenarios. I already have to 8cm case fans ,in at front, out at back. I feel , rightly or wrongly, that my real problem is the heat sink itself which is of all alluminium construction, and/or the bedding of the heatsink to the cpu.I have already tried rebedding the heat sink. Incdentally AMD did not recommend the compund bedding matterial at all, and recommended the patch method. I must say that has not been my experience to date. I have always had best results with a thin screed of compound. I wonder what other folks experiences are. Alluminium is a worse heat conductor than copper and gold is even better. I would suggest you get in touch with the people who make heat sinks they would be better able to advise you. I feel my current heatsink fails to transfer the generated cpu heat to the veins and the airflow fast enough. That may be due to the method of bedding Contact is the most important, the bedding is used to insure that the heat sink is in firm contact with the heat generator. Air flow across the heat sink is VERY important. but I am fast loosing confidence in that conclusion. I suspect the alluminium block itself is not as good a conducter of heat as I really need for my 1800 athlon cpu. I wonder whether those of you with experience of coper heatsinks can report your experiences, are they that much better than alluminium heatsinks ? I would really like to know. I am prepared to buy a new coper heatsink if they prove really worthwhile. I have tried to find out which manufacturer made my stick of memory without success. All I can find out is what I can read on the stick itself:- SANSUNG 151 K4H560838C-TCB0 BCJ165XX KOREA Samsung Korea 0152 M368L6423CTL-CB0 512MB DDR PC2100 I have tried to find out if Samsung have a chip plant in Korea. I still donn't know. It could be made from samsung chips in a plant not owned by samsung in korea.In which case maybe not so good. But Samsung in general I though made good quality chips ? Anyway that is all I know to date. Not an expert. Hope these notes help. Regards; Hoyt Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
On Tuesday 03 Feb 2004 1:47 pm, John Richard Smith wrote: CPU temperatures and cooling issues+ memory === I decided to start this thread again. The precious thread had become a bit rambling. Well, My cpu / heatsink and case temperatures are still regarded by the techies at AMD as withing tollerances. I am not happy with the conclusion though. These are:-- Case temp 28C with CPU temp of 49/50C on normal desktop loads. Case temp 28/32C CPU temp of 56.5 on 99% Loads (and siezure) I am not happy with these temps. I would like to see case temps of 28C constant and cpu temps of low 40's rising to middle/upper 40's under full load scenarios. I already have two 8cm case fans ,in at front, out at back. Hi John, I usually throw away the stock coolers and buy a decent one. However I do run my Linux standalone router (AMD Athlon 2000+) with its stock cooler and fan adapter so I can use a higher CFM 8cm fan. You could always use a 6cm-8cm adapter+ 8cm fan to increase the airflow over your heatsink. For an Athlon 1800+ which isn't overclocked you shouldn't really need a new heatsink. However AMD are taking out of their backside if they think that a patch is the way to bond a heatsink to a CPU!! Always use high grade heatsink compound (I always use Artic Silver - but thats just laziness :-). If you do want to spend lots of money Swiftech make very nice copper heatsinks :-) This is unlikely to be the root cause of your problem. Athlon CPUs do run hot. So do P4's for that matter :-) My laptop (P4-M) has a cooling hystersis which switches in at 54C and off at 46C. I built up a Athlon 2500+ based PC for a friend. Even when its not overclocked and with a huge Coolermaster blower-type fan it still runs at 47C idle!! Have you thought of a powersupply issue? The PSU will be under strain when your CPU is drawing a lot of current (mainly to heat your house). The PSU in another PC I built even tripped the MAIN circuit breaker in the flat :-) The powersupply became more and more unstable (PC just died occasionally). That powersupply was rated at 400W so think QUALITY not POWER!! Antec, Q-Tec, Thermaltake, etc. are good. Make sure your RAM is branded: Crucial, PNY, Kingston, Samsung, Panasonic, Corsair, etc. In the first PC I built I used generic DDRAM. I had to replace one the modules within a year because it had died :-( Its hard to tell with yours - like you say it may be outsourced Samsung production. My advice would be to try getting hold/borrowing something like a cheap Q-Tec PSU and/or a crucial DDRAM (PC2100) stick to test what is actually wrong. Then replace these parts (one at a time). Linux has kernel support for avoiding dodgy areas of RAM but I would rather have RAM that works :-) Hope that helps. Robert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] CPU temperatures and cooling issues + memory
Robert Walker wrote: On Tuesday 03 Feb 2004 1:47 pm, John Richard Smith wrote: CPU temperatures and cooling issues+ memory === I decided to start this thread again. The precious thread had become a bit rambling. Well, My cpu / heatsink and case temperatures are still regarded by the techies at AMD as withing tollerances. I am not happy with the conclusion though. These are:-- Case temp 28C with CPU temp of 49/50C on normal desktop loads. Case temp 28/32C CPU temp of 56.5 on 99% Loads (and siezure) I am not happy with these temps. I would like to see case temps of 28C constant and cpu temps of low 40's rising to middle/upper 40's under full load scenarios. I already have two 8cm case fans ,in at front, out at back. Hi John, I usually throw away the stock coolers and buy a decent one. However I do run my Linux standalone router (AMD Athlon 2000+) with its stock cooler and fan adapter so I can use a higher CFM 8cm fan. You could always use a 6cm-8cm adapter+ 8cm fan to increase the airflow over your heatsink. For an Athlon 1800+ which isn't overclocked you shouldn't really need a new heatsink. However AMD are taking out of their backside if they think that a patch is the way to bond a heatsink to a CPU!! Always use high grade heatsink compound (I always use Artic Silver - but thats just laziness :-). If you do want to spend lots of money Swiftech make very nice copper heatsinks :-) This is unlikely to be the root cause of your problem. Athlon CPUs do run hot. So do P4's for that matter :-) My laptop (P4-M) has a cooling hystersis which switches in at 54C and off at 46C. I built up a Athlon 2500+ based PC for a friend. Even when its not overclocked and with a huge Coolermaster blower-type fan it still runs at 47C idle!! Have you thought of a powersupply issue? The PSU will be under strain when your CPU is drawing a lot of current (mainly to heat your house). The PSU in another PC I built even tripped the MAIN circuit breaker in the flat :-) The powersupply became more and more unstable (PC just died occasionally). That powersupply was rated at 400W so think QUALITY not POWER!! Antec, Q-Tec, Thermaltake, etc. are good. Make sure your RAM is branded: Crucial, PNY, Kingston, Samsung, Panasonic, Corsair, etc. In the first PC I built I used generic DDRAM. I had to replace one the modules within a year because it had died :-( Its hard to tell with yours - like you say it may be outsourced Samsung production. My advice would be to try getting hold/borrowing something like a cheap Q-Tec PSU and/or a crucial DDRAM (PC2100) stick to test what is actually wrong. Then replace these parts (one at a time). Linux has kernel support for avoiding dodgy areas of RAM but I would rather have RAM that works :-) Hope that helps. Robert Thanks Robert, This is what I want to know, I trust guys who have been and done it with their own cash more than anything else. I've been doing a bit of rummaging around and two heatsinks that look better than I have are, Swiftech MCX462-V which has a rather novel hedgehog type of heatsink. Vantec VA4-C7040 aeroflow cooler which is definately copper but has a 4 sided vent airflow system. I don't think either are very quiet though, and although not cheap, are at least affordable. I do agree about the heatsink compound and that has been my experience too. My PSU is brand new and rated at 350W, it seems ok ,but not the best. I don't suspect it at the moment. No mine is a heat transfer problem that I want to improve.I think the 7CM fan provides enough volume of air but the heat is not being transfered quickly enough to the airflow. That's why I am considering a copper base heatsink, but it's nice to hear from people who have experienced these things ahead of me. I've never used a copper based heatsink. It seems to me these heatsinks have a terribly difficult job to do, the cpu which is only about 10 mm square generates a lot of heat and that has to be whipped away pronto through solid metal. I guess the fins have to be really cold to generate a cross flow of heat energy. It's incredible it works at all. If your interested to know more about the two heatsinks I mention above just type the model number into google. John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
