Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:01:30 +0200, Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 19 March 2002 17:26, sda wrote: [snippet] Why are they asking for $ and not emphasizing what the benefits are? Why are they giving away the ISO's for free rather than following SuSE's successful implementation of a preview non-installable iso? If they did this alone, it would cut down on the freeloaders burning the distro and not contributing. Again, there seems to be some unclearness about the nature of free software. Someone who copies, uses or redistributes software is not a freeloader, he/she is a user. If he/she contributes something, such as time, money or code, he/she is a contributor (said Robin, rather tautologically). Even someone who downloads the system, uses it and recommends it to friends is contributing, albeit minimally. There may be people out there who give financial support, write code, document it, and answer questions on mailing lists, but they can probably be counted on your fingers. How many people here actually started their Linux experience by paying for an official distribution (I don't count redistributed CDs from Cheapbytes etc.)? And how many who _did_ earn under $15,000 p.a. (a good wage by world standards, BTW)? Robin Excellent point, Robin. I must admit that I am one of these people. Being a full-time university student, I cannot afford to pay for a Mandrake Club membership (particularly with the crummy $A-$US exchange rate). Instead, I spend my free time helping others to use Mandrake. I would like to think that I have helped people enough to stay with Mandrake, and perhaps even to join the Mandrake Club. In this way, I am hopefully (indirectly) contributing more than $US5 a month to Mandrakesoft. The idea of contributing money towards free software development is a relatively new one. Traditionally, it was customary to devote one's time towards the community as 'payback' for 'services rendered' (i.e. the time the community spends on creating free software), creating a situation where everyone helps each other in some way or other. If you've ever read Eric S. Raymond's The Cathedral and the Bazaar, this corresponds to the 'bazaar' idea. Paying money is fine for inexperienced people, or for people who can afford it, but it does little to help the community as a whole. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan It's not a bug, it's tradition! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Mon, 2002-03-18 at 22:50, Dennis Myers wrote: Mr. Rigby appears to be in marketing. That says it all. His mind set is for the masses and that is the same Mindset as M$. Feed them BS and as long as it has a pretty bow on it and has been spayed with Deoderant it will sell like hot cakes. Sorry but I am up past my bed time, hard day at work and tired of hearing Sunday quarterbacks say it can't be done. Needs must tell that to companies like Trane and Carrier who have taken the public domain mathematical formulas of thermodynamics and physics and massaged them, turned them into a very servicable product and made a good living for a lot of people that way. Anyone can access the formulas and chemistry, physics etc of the product, making the product is the trick. And IMHO Mandrakesoft is doing a damned fine job of making a product. The competitors had a head start but Mandrakesoft is closing fast. I have watched it mature since 6.0 and wow is it closing fast. Hang tough MandrakeSoft team. -- Dennis M. registered linux user # 180842 RAH ! RAH !! (tries out new pep rally routine) lol. :) Best Regards, LX _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Tuesday 19 March 2002 17:26, sda wrote: [snippet] Why are they asking for $ and not emphasizing what the benefits are? Why are they giving away the ISO's for free rather than following SuSE's successful implementation of a preview non-installable iso? If they did this alone, it would cut down on the freeloaders burning the distro and not contributing. Again, there seems to be some unclearness about the nature of free software. Someone who copies, uses or redistributes software is not a freeloader, he/she is a user. If he/she contributes something, such as time, money or code, he/she is a contributor (said Robin, rather tautologically). Even someone who downloads the system, uses it and recommends it to friends is contributing, albeit minimally. There may be people out there who give financial support, write code, document it, and answer questions on mailing lists, but they can probably be counted on your fingers. How many people here actually started their Linux experience by paying for an official distribution (I don't count redistributed CDs from Cheapbytes etc.)? And how many who _did_ earn under $15,000 p.a. (a good wage by world standards, BTW)? Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Tuesday 19 March 2002 07:26, sda opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 01:11:19PM -0500, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: If they're moving to a subscriber model, then why is it called a club and not a subscription service? BTW are you talking offically and are you an employee of MandrakeSoft? just opinion here, but club not only sounds nicer but is more acurate due to the community building attempt. also you get more out it than if you simply bought eack boxed set. or at least that seems to be the plan. Why are they giving away the ISO's for free rather than following SuSE's successful implementation of a preview non-installable iso? again, just opinion, but while i would like to see a live cd of mandrake, the day that is only way to download a cd from them is the day i leave. suse might earn my respect if it weren't for that. and i have several friends who agree. and for me mandrakes model is a success. i am paying them... If they did this alone, it would cut down on the freeloaders burning the distro and not contributing. Who really cares about the commercial binaries, not many I think. Most come to Mandrake for the ease of installation and ease of setup. That's the selling feature they must concentrate on. while true, and while i really wish places like cheapbytes didn't burn cds and make a killing off of mandrake (and others) hard work, i think the club subscription can partlly combat this. you can still get it free, but the idea you are contributing, for just a few bucks a month, plus get software not on either the downloads or even the box set, is hard to pass up. Yes I guess I was delusional when I bought 5k shares last year. I expect MandrakeSoft to make a profit, sooner rather than later. On track to make a profit means absolutely nothing to me, when I was promised the same thing at the end of 1st quarter 2002. You see I believe in this distro technically, just not sure I can say the same thing about how it runs it's business or executes a somewhat dubuious business plan. short term investing? well i won't get into that discussion, but i hope they do well for your investments too. -- one mans theology is anothers belly laugh -heinlein shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Tue, 2002-03-19 at 10:12, sda wrote: Well, I don't know what you call a troll where you come from, I've been here for a couple of years [anyway], and I have offered support on these lists from time to time and no, I'm not a troll, thank-you very much. BTW you didn't address my statement re Caldera but only critiqued my tone, seems to me you're more of the troll... Perhaps I didn't address the rest because I agree with it somewhat? Put your thinking cap on man and read on. -- -^- -^- ? ?Steve ^ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' ` I unclog my nose in your general direc-tion! Plus your sig still looks stupid. Feeding the trolls again, LX _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
it and were grateful for the chance. Cheers and very sincere best wishes and good night to all, John. - Original Message - From: civileme [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake OK enough pontification. (1) The fact is that your solution is untenable. The only assets a software companyy has are its people. The people at Mandrake make the company, and the fact that they are part of alinux community seems to have escaped you. (2) Do you really expect to pull an apple off a grape vine? Mandrakesoft would have to be changed down to the roots to make what you suggest happen, and then without the authors of the tools, they would have to pick up and go on. (3) So start your own company and see if you can find engineers who will take the -free- Mandrakesoft product and make it closed source. And best of luck to you. I won't help, and I doubt if you will find a handful of people associated with the Mandrakesoft effort who will. Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Tue, 2002-03-19 at 10:26, sda wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 01:11:19PM -0500, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: I believe that Sridhar's point was that they are NOT holding out their hands with a plea, they are moving to a subscription model of business; seems to me that YOU are the one that's delusional. You're just seeing what you want to see, or pushing an agenda that you want to push. It's already been stated elsewhere and here the details and advantages of the business plan they have; you're just not reading. If they're moving to a subscriber model, then why is it called a club and not a subscription service? BTW are you talking offically and are you an employee of MandrakeSoft? lol. Guess I should have expected that sooner or later. No, I am not an employee of MandrakeSoft, nor am I affiliated with them in any way other than having subscribed to the club and use of their distro. LX _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
AMEN! Sridhar well said! -- Mark I suppose I should have a pithy saying here... The brain reports all neurons busy processing sub-routines are currently occupied. Retry your query in five minutes. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Tuesday 19 March 2002 18:31, ed tharp wrote: damn Jon, you are Certainly full of your self. CivilMe is one of those that understand and make the company work. Only a self sold salesman would be so damn blind to the real world to make a statement that the only folks that count are salesman. have you considered that _your_ (and I do mean) Slanted view might be considered very Bourgeois and basicly asinine? being multi-syllabic does not make you intelligent, just windy, and altho that may work in the world o sales, in the world of technicians, it does not wash my shorts. Sales people willingly tell stories about things they have no real Idea about, since their reputation is built on sales, and not on the satisfaction of customers. that is the basic reason we get a different answer to the question of is the product a good one, when you ask the salesman and the technician or mechanic. while it is important for the salesman to have great confidence in his self, the same would be a disaster for a good tech. the same holds true as to why few techs ever make the change to sales. Personal integrity is too important to them to be a BS artists that being a good salesman requires. let me say this from the bottom of my heart, as one of the folks in this world who does create added value everyday to support myself and a number of others, and who is regularly called on to change the salesmans lies to customer satisfaction SALESMEN are Assholes It depends. A _good_ sales(wo)man realises that the result aimed at is for the customer to end up with the product that suits them best, not to sell them any old crap. Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Tue, 2002-03-19 at 13:26, Damian wrote: i knew sooner or later it would come down to this come on, now. you can to better that that. if you just don't agree you could stop the discussion period. neither of you are the ones that decide this matter for Mandrakesoft so why should you start calling each other names over it. I agree totally. The entire exchange was repulsive, not to mention horrible and slightly amusing. I move that the participants be strung up and tortured with naked women in wet t-shirts. (oops. scratch the t-shirt thing). ; Mandrakesoft has people inside that do this kind of thinking and it's their bet which counts. ( and i'm pretty damn positive anything we can say in here will affect their choices. ) Ahrrrmmm...yes of course you are right. maybe we all can come up with some brilliant way to make this distro the most widely used, made by the richest enterprise and with the most employees. but if it's going to end up this way, we better keep it to ourselves. Well said. i've migrated successfully to linux because of this list, let's just help mandrake in whatever way we can, and hope for the best. in the meantime, let's keep this list as cool as it always has been. Damian. Hear hear ! Tongue in cheek, LX _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Tue, 2002-03-19 at 16:26, shane wrote: On Tuesday 19 March 2002 11:11, Lyvim Xaphir opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: I agree totally. The entire exchange was repulsive, not to mention horrible and slightly amusing. I move that the participants be strung up and tortured with naked women in wet t-shirts. (oops. scratch the t-shirt thing). ; scratch it? your kidding? i should stop waiting for the tee shirt girls to ring the bell then? i hope your happy. you have ruined my entire day Waitaminute, shane. What exactly do you have when you have a naked woman with no wet t-shirt? (looking innocently and nonchalantly at ceiling while slowly drumming fingers on desk.) grin -- god is omnipotent, omnicient, and omnibenevolent-says so right on the label. and if you believe that i have some land for sale, but cash only, and in small bills -long shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ HTH, LX. ;) _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
For the time being at least, free speech has to be pretty much the same as free beer. If the code is free, then anyone who wants can make free binaries, including cloning your entire distribution (remember Mandrake itself was for many years thought of as a Red Hat clone). If the code isn't free, you lose your developers. That is the real world - you can't have half-free software. Robin On Monday 18 March 2002 07:46, john rigby wrote: Hi Todd folks, Explaining value: How much money do you think charities would receive if the big numbers weren't tax deductible? Many years ago a friend of mine who thought he knew marketing ( was a famous expert) went into professional fund-raising. Lasted 3 months. Yet, it is the little people that DO make real charities work. They just don't have the money... BUT if you give them an option to buy something that is actually useful as well, they do, they do. Some genius in Oz many years ago came up with the idea of the Lion's Club Xmas Cake. Even I used to buy a couple .. I don't even believe in Free Trials. I believe in guarantees. Moneyback ones. Who could run a business today without them? In most civilised countries they are mandatory. If *anyone* could download a *demo* of Mandrake, that too is different. THAT would be very smart. AND small. It would have to demo a full replacement for THAT other one's suite - that's all. That's all means just that. Not one in a million - literally- of the potential users out there would even ever know what a Server was. Would ever use the utils. For true Geeks, the legion of Masochists who like developing\getting broken by these things, by all means they should be able to play with kernels etc. to their hearts content. They are vital - but they have little to do with successful, competent *marketing* strategy. At most in the whole world we are talking about 10,000 people. All could be absorbed into a Friends Of Mandrake Developer's Club (free - entry requirement being a proved fully working install) and given lots of help via the millions coming in from a sensible consumer distro... But, what on earth *IS* someone who can't afford a lousy $100 doing playing with Server Systems and expecting support??? ( Pardon my ignorance, but what type of person are we talking about here, then?) REAL Server Systems DO cost thousands - I know I've bought and paid for them over the years. I STILL don't ever expect them to be free! What I hope for is just the dream of freedom of choice. To finalise my point: The 18 richest people in the history of this planet - 6 of whom each have more financial power than existed in the entire world a century ago, run businesses based on maximising of market opportunity - which translated means: charging what the market is prepared to pay. Not even what will make a simple profit - but maximising what the market will pay. None of them and no successful person in the history of the world ever made any money by giving their product or service away! Samples, yes, Demos, yes, the whole cake? I repeat, can someobody show me what the sales pitch is here? There is a market like me who will pay for experimental products in the hope of getting an edge, or even holding on (to his sanity) but, we are miniscule. How many total paid-for retail packs has Mandrake sold? Not even enough to run a single, tiny Corporate Jet. But, 20 million at just $10 each = $200 million - with no distribution costs. It's a start. Especially as almost nobody came to the pay-for Club Party. Who would? Most of the people out there won't even pay for a disc pak that you can buy for a few bucks. They are already conditioned to free. They will build a machine at home to save $20-50 assembly fee. Get no guarantee. Some do it because they like the pain. They are not the market. They are not the market They are not the market The market is the 90 million annoyed, frustrated Windows Users who will soon be told to join a subscriber thing or else. The market even bigger and better is the 300 million people out there who would buy a computer if it wasn't all so confusing and threatening and full of 20 y.o. kids showing off in electronic stores using all the latest splat words. Instead of a nice older person who smiles and arranges their home installation for them and a training session on the Net to hook them into a User Support Group Mandrake could own it. Cheap low-level hardware. Cheap Operating System Cheap Software Built-in giant underground support network. Jobs as installers for hundreds of junior geeks Jobs as tutors for hundreds of older Users. It would all be so easy. Cheers, Him Again - Original Message - From: Todd Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] How to best
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
EXACTLY ME MIND ! Thanks a lot Sridhar Karine On Monday 18 March 2002 10:19, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: You seem to be applying closed-source pricing policies to something that is free (as in speech). Why would one pay $100 for a Mandrake server when the source is free? Someone can compile this source code and bingo: free (as in speech and in beer) Mandrake, which can be legally distributed to millions of people. Otherwise, they could just download Debian or Red Hat. Sure, Mandrake could make proprietary aplications like Suse does (and note that Suse is in financial difficulty while Red Hat isn't), but that would destroy Mandrakesoft's reputation in the GNU/Linux community. Mandrakesoft is a free software company through to the core. In this way it is almost like Debian, and it is the principal reason why myself and many others like the company. Estranging the developer community would just create a slow-developing and unpopular distro like Caldera OpenLinux (which used to be amongst the most popular). I like Mandrake. I respect Mandrakesoft. But if they move to a restrictive pricing policy like that of Suse or Caldera, I will switch to a free (as in speech) distro like Debian or Gentoo. -- Karine ZUERCHER [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Monday 18 March 2002 04:36, Sridhar Dhanapalan opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: One thing I don't understand is how people have interpreted Mandrakesoft's request for people to join the Mandrake Club as a plea for charity to keep an ailing company afloat. It is no such thing. The i think you have the right of it. as i keep explain to all my mandrake using friends, money now sees to that they keep the type of people that are paid by mandrake to work for projects like KDE or Gnome. mandrake is in ok condition, but mandrakes contribution to free software may take a small hit. since i can't code, i pay so others can. on the other hand, if you like and use the distro, and can afford to, shouldn't you support it? even if they aren't begging for cash to stay afloat, surely paying for software you use is a good thing© if you can do it. by no means is that a guilt trip. i used 7.0 briefly, 7.1 and 7.2 all without giving a penny. i didn't have pennies. starving student and all that. nw, while not wealthy by any stretch, i can afford to live (student can't do that) so i make donations and buy boxes and join clubs. behold the magic linux, ;-) i wasn't a thief for using it before, and now i am a proud contributor. -- Microsoft: Having a false sense of security was never so expensive. shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Mon, 2002-03-18 at 11:08, sda wrote: Note that Mandrakesoft does have a donations page, which can be reached at http://mandrakelinux.com/donations/. They have _not_ publicised this site in their press release (in fact, it's been almost a year since they last mentioned it), so it is not a plea for charity. Donations is not charity?! Ok whatever you say. In closing all I'm going to say is that public for profit companies have no business asking for donations. Charge for the product, if it's good and people really are sincere about how much they like Mandrake, they'll pay for it. Otherwise they're just fairweather friends. -- -^- -^- ? ?Steve ^ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' ` Here's another troll tactic. Sridhar just very plainly stated above that Mandrake has a separate donations page. In this he is stating, in a very simple and understandable way, that MandrakeSoft has clearly delineated the lines between their subscription model of business and donations (or charity). Nowhere above can it be interpreted that Sridhar is saying that Donations are not charity. Youre not out to be reasonable, you're just trolling. And what's with the stupid looking sig, anyway? _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Mon, 2002-03-18 at 10:56, sda wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:19:15PM +1100, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: You seem to be applying closed-source pricing policies to something that is free (as in speech). Why would one pay $100 for a Mandrake server when the source is free? Someone can compile this source code and bingo: free (as in speech and in beer) Mandrake, which can be legally distributed to millions of people. Otherwise, they could just download Debian or Red Hat. Sure, Mandrake could make proprietary aplications like Suse does (and note that Suse is in financial difficulty while Red Hat isn't), but that would destroy Mandrakesoft's reputation in the GNU/Linux community. Mandrakesoft is a free software company through to the core. In this way it is almost like Debian, and it is the principal reason why myself and many others like the company. Estranging the developer community would just create a slow-developing and unpopular distro like Caldera OpenLinux (which used to be amongst the most popular). Caldera is unpopular by whom? Maybe people like you, but the business community that *pays* for software and support seem, to like it very much. At least Caldera has a viable business model while Mandrake - well let's just say Mandrake is struggling. I find it extemely interesting that you home in on one particular part of Sridhar's statement above, (Caldera's popularity) but fail to address the rest of what he's said, which is totally valid. For that matter, you've skipped alot; which to me smacks of troll. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
I have ADD, please keep your posts to 2 paragraphs or less. Sheesh. Anyway, just being a dork. Thought I'd say I can't be bothered to read all that. And I'm sure there are others here who agree. Femme john rigby wrote: Hi Todd folks, Explaining value: How much money do you think charities would receive if the big numbers weren't tax deductible? Many years ago a friend of mine who thought he knew marketing ( was a famous expert) went into professional fund-raising. Lasted 3 months. Yet, it is the little people that DO make real charities work. They just don't have the money... BUT if you give them an option to buy something that is actually useful as well, they do, they do. Some genius in Oz many years ago came up with the idea of the Lion's Club Xmas Cake. Even I used to buy a couple .. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Monday 18 March 2002 07:36, you wrote: One thing I don't understand is how people have interpreted Mandrakesoft's request for people to join the Mandrake Club as a plea for charity to keep an ailing company afloat. It is no such thing. The Mandrakesoft web page clearly shows Mandrake's financial details (as a public company, this is mandatory). They expect a profit by the end of the year, but at their current cash burn rate (which isn't extravagant, BTW) they can't do so without making some redundancies. This is how I interpreted the press release: While we are on track to post a profit by year-end, this cannot currently be done without losing some valuable employees. These members have made a substantial contribution towards the development of free software both within and outside of Mandrakesoft, and we would like to continue sponsoring them so that they can continue this fine work. To achieve this, we kindly request that Mandrake users join the Mandrake Club (http://www.mandrakeclub.com/). A standard Mandrake Club membership only costs $US5 a month and offers supurb value for money (http://mandrakelinux.com/en/club/). In addition to these benefits, you will be helping to support the continued development of the best GNU/Linux distribution around. I like the way you phrased it better. It makes a lot of sense. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
Hi Sridhar and folks again, You are actually selling my case, again, my friend. Everybody and his dog have already tried to make this unworkable thing go and there has been a 100% failure. Look around. Now look at Microsoft. A company flogging a set of products that even the front-end user has become enraged with and they are about to REALLY sock it to us.. ME and my millions of non-geek compatriots. What are our real world choices? 1. Stay and be . you-know-what-ed 2. Go to the Fruit? ... An absurd but very successful Religion built on the most atrocious lies. BUT great Advertising/PR. ( Great margins for the resellers, too who sorta illegally, in my opinion for most countries, agree not show them against anything else!) Amazing over-pricing. They could if they wanted, quadruple their marketshare, but who wants to?? It would mean cutting margins - poo to that! 3. The *X world. Now, the big corporate users are well catered for - even Bill's Billions haven't help him make a dent there. He just hasn't got the product and knows it, but he knows that the IT world is dumbing down, too. So that leaves the small business person and the domestic user. There is not a single, sensible product out there oriented toward the needs of the 90 million and the 300 million in the wings. I know because I and many, many people I know are still there, still trying. AND that is not even the highly experienced group I'm talking about - people like me who can not even understand the Manual. (Even though it has little to do with the actual product or components of the moment) Until somebody who understands PL Statements and can write them a Business Plan does so, the future of Mandrake is decidedly grim. I will take bets on it -sadly. I want it to work, but 30 years of international business experience- many as a last chance consultant - tells me that this future is clear. Simple arithmetic. Folks, skip the rhetoric, the Religious fervour, give me some hope based on some sensible numbers. What we need are some Cost Accountants here... :-) Cheers, Him Again Still with time on his hands - the last attempt at installing M8.0 fell over yesterday on my techo friends machine, too. - Original Message - From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style You seem to be applying closed-source pricing policies to something that is free (as in speech). Why would one pay $100 for a Mandrake server when the source is free? Someone can compile this source code and bingo: free (as in speech and in beer) Mandrake, which can be legally distributed to millions of people. Otherwise, they could just download Debian or Red Hat. Sure, Mandrake could make proprietary aplications like Suse does (and note that Suse is in financial difficulty while Red Hat isn't), but that would destroy Mandrakesoft's reputation in the GNU/Linux community. Mandrakesoft is a free software company through to the core. In this way it is almost like Debian, and it is the principal reason why myself and many others like the company. Estranging the developer community would just create a slow-developing and unpopular distro like Caldera OpenLinux (which used to be amongst the most popular). I like Mandrake. I respect Mandrakesoft. But if they move to a restrictive pricing policy like that of Suse or Caldera, I will switch to a free (as in speech) distro like Debian or Gentoo. On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:46:14 +1000, john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Todd folks, Explaining value: How much money do you think charities would receive if the big numbers weren't tax deductible? Many years ago a friend of mine who thought he knew marketing ( was a famous expert) went into professional fund-raising. Lasted 3 months. Yet, it is the little people that DO make real charities work. They just don't have the money... BUT if you give them an option to buy something that is actually useful as well, they do, they do. Some genius in Oz many years ago came up with the idea of the Lion's Club Xmas Cake. Even I used to buy a couple .. I don't even believe in Free Trials. I believe in guarantees. Moneyback ones. Who could run a business today without them? In most civilised countries they are mandatory. If *anyone* could download a *demo* of Mandrake, that too is different. THAT would be very smart. AND small. It would have to demo a full replacement for THAT other one's suite - that's all. That's all means just that. Not one in a million - literally- of the potential users out there would even ever know what a Server was. Would ever use the utils. For true Geeks, the legion of Masochists who like developing\getting broken by these things, by all means they should be able to play with kernels etc
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
john rigby wrote: Hi Sridhar folks, Unfortunately this whole thing is enough for me to almost rest my case! Mandrake seems to be composed of nice people - Geeks one and all. There are certainly no people from the hard world there. This Company doesn't even have the excuse that its owners shot through with the money and bought a few corporate jets! It has actually being trying to make a good product! Like a good mouse-trap. It won't happen. It can't win. Otherwise it would be at least making a decent wage for its seemingly fanatical employees! All the corporation needs to do is get some marketing nouse in to the system. THERE IS NO COMPETITION. My friend who sells those monstrocities called Apple told me the other day he cannot believe it. He is making money hand over fist from them - and they are like Lemmings. They actually *bring* their mothers and sisters and Ministers into his shop. He has a Network system hidden out the back - because it is running on 25% of the cost PC's and Linux -one expensive(!) Apple terminalout front to show the big world of the Internet. Works for some. this idea of making money as well. Cheers? John OK enough pontification. The fact is that your solution is untenable. The only assets a software companyy has are its people. The people at Mandrake make the company, and the fact that they are part of alinux community seems to have escaped you. Do you really expect to pull an apple off a grape vine? Mandrakesoft would have to be changed down to the roots to make what you suggest happen, and then without the authors of the tools, they would have to pick up and go on. So start your own company and see if you can find engineers who will take the -free- Mandrakesoft product and make it closed source. And best of luck to you. I won't help, and I doubt if you will find a handful of people associated with the Mandrakesoft effort who will. Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 17:41:03 -0700 FemmeFatale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have ADD, please keep your posts to 2 paragraphs or less. Sheesh. Anyway, just being a dork. Thought I'd say I can't be bothered to read all that. And I'm sure there are others here who agree. Femme I agree! I'm thinking we need a mandrake-business-strategies or mandrake-business-plan discussion list, which I would be the first not to join ;-) -- Todd Slater Everywhere I go I'm asked if I think the university stifles writers. My opinion is that they don't stifle enough of them. There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good teacher. (Flannery O'Connor) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Monday 18 March 2002 20:54, you wrote: john rigby wrote: Hi Sridhar folks, Unfortunately this whole thing is enough for me to almost rest my case! Mandrake seems to be composed of nice people - Geeks one and all. There are certainly no people from the hard world there. This Company doesn't even have the excuse that its owners shot through with the money and bought a few corporate jets! It has actually being trying to make a good product! Like a good mouse-trap. It won't happen. It can't win. Otherwise it would be at least making a decent wage for its seemingly fanatical employees! All the corporation needs to do is get some marketing nouse in to the system. THERE IS NO COMPETITION. My friend who sells those monstrocities called Apple told me the other day he cannot believe it. He is making money hand over fist from them - and they are like Lemmings. They actually *bring* their mothers and sisters and Ministers into his shop. He has a Network system hidden out the back - because it is running on 25% of the cost PC's and Linux -one expensive(!) Apple terminalout front to show the big world of the Internet. Works for some. this idea of making money as well. Cheers? John OK enough pontification. The fact is that your solution is untenable. The only assets a software companyy has are its people. The people at Mandrake make the company, and the fact that they are part of alinux community seems to have escaped you. Do you really expect to pull an apple off a grape vine? Mandrakesoft would have to be changed down to the roots to make what you suggest happen, and then without the authors of the tools, they would have to pick up and go on. So start your own company and see if you can find engineers who will take the -free- Mandrakesoft product and make it closed source. And best of luck to you. I won't help, and I doubt if you will find a handful of people associated with the Mandrakesoft effort who will. Civileme Never mind about the pontification Civileme. Mr. Rigby appears to be in marketing. That says it all. His mind set is for the masses and that is the same Mindset as M$. Feed them BS and as long as it has a pretty bow on it and has been spayed with Deoderant it will sell like hot cakes. Sorry but I am up past my bed time, hard day at work and tired of hearing Sunday quarterbacks say it can't be done. Needs must tell that to companies like Trane and Carrier who have taken the public domain mathematical formulas of thermodynamics and physics and massaged them, turned them into a very servicable product and made a good living for a lot of people that way. Anyone can access the formulas and chemistry, physics etc of the product, making the product is the trick. And IMHO Mandrakesoft is doing a damned fine job of making a product. The competitors had a head start but Mandrakesoft is closing fast. I have watched it mature since 6.0 and wow is it closing fast. Hang tough MandrakeSoft team. -- Dennis M. registered linux user # 180842 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Monday 18 March 2002 19:50, Dennis Myers opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: john rigby wrote: way too much Never mind about the pontification Civileme. Mr. Rigby appears to be in marketing. That says it all. lets just face that fact he 1) has no questions about mandrake or its workings that we can answer and 2) has no answers we want and simply not feed the troll. -- If you can't make it good, at least make it look good. -Bill Gates, 1994 shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
Hello! john rigby wrote: [...] BTW; FOR REAL NEWBIES: NEITHER OF THE LINKS WORK IN SRIDHARS MESSAGE - JUST DROP OFF THE "( )"s That must depend on what browser you use. Everything works fine here (with Netscape on Mandrak 8.1 and on MacOS 9 X). Pascal Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Monday 18 March 2002 20:15, Pascal opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: That must depend on what browser you use. Everything works fine here (with Netscape on Mandrak 8.1 and on MacOS 9 X). and konq, and opera from kmail. maybe it is just low quality MS programs that screw it up? :-D -- you can have peace or freedom, but never count on both at once -heinlein shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Mon, 2002-03-18 at 11:08, sda wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 11:36:50PM +1100, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: One thing I don't understand is how people have interpreted Mandrakesoft's request for people to join the Mandrake Club as a plea for charity to keep an ailing company afloat. It is no such thing. The Mandrakesoft web page clearly shows Mandrake's financial details (as a public company, this is mandatory). They expect a profit by the end of the year, but at their current cash burn rate (which isn't extravagant, BTW) they can't do so without making some redundancies. This is how I interpreted the press release: You seem to forget that Mandrake promised a profit the 1st quarter of this year. If you believe that `they're on track' you really are self delusional. A company that is on track to make a profit, doesn't hold out it's hand and plea for money. I believe that Sridhar's point was that they are NOT holding out their hands with a plea, they are moving to a subscription model of business; seems to me that YOU are the one that's delusional. You're just seeing what you want to see, or pushing an agenda that you want to push. It's already been stated elsewhere and here the details and advantages of the business plan they have; you're just not reading. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Sunday 17 March 2002 19:53, Todd Slater opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. I would never have downloaded and tried Mandrake if I had had to pay. I was not willing to pay anything to test it out. Now that it is my only OS at home, yea verily sing praises and pass the plate brother! i like suse almost as much as mandrake, but i loaded it once, and will never do so again. damn difficult ftp installer rather than ISO's! and it is still free, just harder to get to. that cost them a customer. i do not buy cars without test drives, do not buy CD's until i have heard at least half the songs on them, and will not buy an OS i can't try first. BUT, i happily buy cars i like after i try them, buy all the CD's from artists whos MP3's i file swaped and like enough to keep on my drive, and give lots of money to my favorite OS. i think those who can not understand the mentality of the linux community, and expect them to pay for nothing, will not last long. those who do understand will get paid if they build a good product. call me polyanna. (I hope the young whipper-snappers out there still listen to Bobby D) does 30 something make me a whipper snapper or an old goat? i can never recall... but i listen from time to time. -- When you say 'I wrote a program that crashed Windows', people just stare at you blankly and say 'Hey, I got those with the system, *for free*'. - Linus Torvalds shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
Hello! shane wrote: On Monday 18 March 2002 20:15, Pascal opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: That must depend on what browser you use. Everything works fine here (with Netscape on Mandrak 8.1 and on MacOS 9 X). and konq, and opera from kmail. maybe it is just low quality MS programs that screw it up? :-D That's exactly what I meant! Pascal Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Mon, 2002-03-18 at 23:15, Pascal wrote: Hello! john rigby wrote: [...] BTW; FOR REAL NEWBIES: NEITHER OF THE LINKS WORK IN SRIDHARS MESSAGE - JUST DROP OFF THE ( )s That must depend on what browser you use. Everything works fine here (with Netscape on Mandrak 8.1 and on MacOS 9 X). Pascal I find it highly amusing and obvious that while addressing the REAL NEWBIES he is using a Microsoft Outlook Express email client. I.E. : X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 I guess this means that there is an echelon that exists *beneath* the REAL NEWBIES. lol L8R LX _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[newbie] How to best support Mandrake
I have read lots of threads about the club memberships etc on this list and find it very understandable that there are some diverse opinions on this. Given that, isn't the best way to support the distro we like to BUY it DIRECT from Mandrake. 8.2 pre-orders are now available. I suggest that if you want to support Mandrake and get CLEAR value for your money, order the 8.2 powerpack or server edition now direct from http://www.mandrakestore.com If you want to offer even more support, go for one of the subscription offers, which gets you 9.0 and 9.1 when released. USD 84 for the PowerPack including shipping has got to be value for money. You even get manuals! My guess would be that if you buy it from your computer shop, Mandrake may see only a small percentage of this. cheers Brian Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Sunday 17 March 2002 15:53, Brian Parish opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: I have read lots of threads about the club memberships etc on this list and find it very understandable that there are some diverse opinions on this. Given that, isn't the best way to support the distro we like to BUY it DIRECT from Mandrake. 8.2 pre-orders are now available. I suggest that if you want to support Mandrake and get CLEAR value for your money, order the 8.2 powerpack or server edition now direct from If you want to offer even more support, go for one of the subscription offers, agreed, and i think, i a real way, the users club is basically an online downloadable don't pay for packaging i don't need subscription. at least that is my understanding. am i mis-understanding? -- When you say 'I wrote a program that crashed Windows', people just stare at you blankly and say 'Hey, I got those with the system, *for free*'. - Linus Torvalds shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake
On Sun, 2002-03-17 at 18:53, Brian Parish wrote: I have read lots of threads about the club memberships etc on this list and find it very understandable that there are some diverse opinions on this. Given that, isn't the best way to support the distro we like to BUY it DIRECT from Mandrake. 8.2 pre-orders are now available. I suggest that if you want to support Mandrake and get CLEAR value for your money, order the 8.2 powerpack or server edition now direct from http://www.mandrakestore.com If you want to offer even more support, go for one of the subscription offers, which gets you 9.0 and 9.1 when released. USD 84 for the PowerPack including shipping has got to be value for money. You even get manuals! My guess would be that if you buy it from your computer shop, Mandrake may see only a small percentage of this. cheers Brian That's correct, there are a number of sticklers with the retail channel; it's one of the reasons that Loki bit the dust. The software stores would not give the product equal time on the shelves, to the same degree that the Apple software got, even. The day will come when Linux software is on the shelves, but for now we are all in a battle now, wether we realize it or not. The retail channel is a very problematic area for survival right now, given the entrenchment of M$ propaganda and influence. Any funds that are sent directly to MandrakeSoft for product are of course sidestepping the middleman. A more reliable and stable method for financial survival is residual recurring revenue, which is what the subscription model is all about. By spreading the cost of the company operation over a large number of people, it makes it easy for the population to bear the effort while ensuring that the Mandrake programmers can feed their kids. If you compare it to magazine subscriptions, it becomes easier to conceptualize. Transgaming works the subscription model by giving you a vote, which allows you a certain amount of input regarding the direction of the company with regard, for example, to what game compatibility they are working on currently. It's possible that similar compensations could be worked out in the future with the Mandrake Club. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
- Original Message - From: Brian Parish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: newbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 9:53 AM Subject: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake I have read lots of threads about the club memberships etc on this list and find it very understandable that there are some diverse opinions on this. Given that, isn't the best way to support the distro we like to BUY it DIRECT from Mandrake. 8.2 pre-orders are now available. I suggest that if you want to support Mandrake and get CLEAR value for your money, order the 8.2 powerpack or server edition now direct from http://www.mandrakestore.com My guess would be that if you buy it from your computer shop, Mandrake may see only a small percentage of this. * VERY small. - Actually, this seemingly innocuous suggestion from Brian is the very heart of the Free issue. Of course that is the sensible thing to do! HOWEVER Human Beans are strange.. The concept of free in technology development is mightily confused. It is one thing to have the idea of GNU - or the knowledge SHARING concept, but free as in no charge is something else again and unfortunately, is how most people see this area to be. The very idea of charity is a repugnant thing when viewed intelligently. Support aid is something else entirely. But buying value!! All Linux needs, much less Mandrake, which already has enormous goodwill out there, is good word of mouth from the freebie-using (demanding??) geeks and their help/support to the worldwide community of non-geeks who in their tens of millions would gladly change to get away from the BSOD of Windoze. A simple change to payment for *amazing* value received, would get the revenue moving. Even the most avid do-it-myself-for-free geek could see the logic in paying the wages and system maintenance of the organisers/co-ordinators of this grand scheme - once it was presented properly. AND even the most impoverished of them could and - more importantly - most WOULD spring for a lousy ten bucks for their distro download. But not if it is free, too. THAT goes against the commonsense and the natural mindset. Estimated 2 MILLION downloads so far. Real users? Maybe 50,000. But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. (If it didn't the worst that would happen is only what *is* going to happen.. another nice company bites the dust, sooner or later.) Shops could still sell the Full Boxes. Nobody should be able to get the full commercial Server system without being FINANCIALLY competent enough to spring say, even $100. Seen M$ Prices for a Server Mandrake should have a giant list of available installers - anyone wanting to help defeat the Dark Forces - and a basic price for a domestic help (over the phone) $25 in-house setup, $50 small business network. Say, $100 up. ANYONE successfully installing a working graphics interfaced Mandrake should be able to apply for a Certificate and then go help their friends get the same GREAT thing they have just seen *working*, writing a letter, playing a game, sending email, chatting and scanning photos.. I have a dream... One day to send out emails to ALL my connections saying: Guess what I've got? No more expensive annoying Microsoft! No more spying on me looking for expensive-so-pirated software! A $5,000 Microsoft system for $250 - fully installed! EVERYTHING! It's called MANDRAKE LINUX and it is magic and it is Mr Gates's worst nightmare come true, at last. It is now user friendly! AND YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO FEAR VIRUSES TRASHING YOUR SYSTEM AND EMAILING YOUR MOM! It just doesn't happen with Linux! Go here and see the story! http:... Oh happy days at last! Cheers! John (sigh) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:59:34 +1000 john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The very idea of charity is a repugnant thing when viewed intelligently. Support aid is something else entirely. But buying value!! Could you explain this a little more? snip But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. I would never have downloaded and tried Mandrake if I had had to pay. I was not willing to pay anything to test it out. Now that it is my only OS at home, I will spring for a box set to get some documentation on paper (hopefully), and to support Mandrake in general. But that's just me. I'm sure your $10/copy scheme will rescue the company from all troubles. Why hasn't anybody ever thought of it before!!! Absolute genius! (If it didn't the worst that would happen is only what *is* going to happen.. another nice company bites the dust, sooner or later.) Shops could still sell the Full Boxes. Nobody should be able to get the full commercial Server system without being FINANCIALLY competent enough to spring say, even $100. Seen M$ Prices for a Server Ah, well, if John Rigby says a server system should cost at least $100, and that a person who cannot pay that sum has absolutely no right to possess a server, well, yes of course, by all means. This world scares you, doesn't it John? Wait--I feel like breaking into song-- Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is Rapidly agin'. Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'. (I hope the young whipper-snappers out there still listen to Bobby D) snip Yadda yadda, sigh, humpf. -- Todd Slater We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing. (Ralph Waldo Emerson) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
Hi Todd folks, Explaining value: How much money do you think charities would receive if the big numbers weren't tax deductible? Many years ago a friend of mine who thought he knew marketing ( was a famous expert) went into professional fund-raising. Lasted 3 months. Yet, it is the little people that DO make real charities work. They just don't have the money... BUT if you give them an option to buy something that is actually useful as well, they do, they do. Some genius in Oz many years ago came up with the idea of the Lion's Club Xmas Cake. Even I used to buy a couple .. I don't even believe in Free Trials. I believe in guarantees. Moneyback ones. Who could run a business today without them? In most civilised countries they are mandatory. If *anyone* could download a *demo* of Mandrake, that too is different. THAT would be very smart. AND small. It would have to demo a full replacement for THAT other one's suite - that's all. That's all means just that. Not one in a million - literally- of the potential users out there would even ever know what a Server was. Would ever use the utils. For true Geeks, the legion of Masochists who like developing\getting broken by these things, by all means they should be able to play with kernels etc. to their hearts content. They are vital - but they have little to do with successful, competent *marketing* strategy. At most in the whole world we are talking about 10,000 people. All could be absorbed into a Friends Of Mandrake Developer's Club (free - entry requirement being a proved fully working install) and given lots of help via the millions coming in from a sensible consumer distro... But, what on earth *IS* someone who can't afford a lousy $100 doing playing with Server Systems and expecting support??? ( Pardon my ignorance, but what type of person are we talking about here, then?) REAL Server Systems DO cost thousands - I know I've bought and paid for them over the years. I STILL don't ever expect them to be free! What I hope for is just the dream of freedom of choice. To finalise my point: The 18 richest people in the history of this planet - 6 of whom each have more financial power than existed in the entire world a century ago, run businesses based on maximising of market opportunity - which translated means: charging what the market is prepared to pay. Not even what will make a simple profit - but maximising what the market will pay. None of them and no successful person in the history of the world ever made any money by giving their product or service away! Samples, yes, Demos, yes, the whole cake? I repeat, can someobody show me what the sales pitch is here? There is a market like me who will pay for experimental products in the hope of getting an edge, or even holding on (to his sanity) but, we are miniscule. How many total paid-for retail packs has Mandrake sold? Not even enough to run a single, tiny Corporate Jet. But, 20 million at just $10 each = $200 million - with no distribution costs. It's a start. Especially as almost nobody came to the pay-for Club Party. Who would? Most of the people out there won't even pay for a disc pak that you can buy for a few bucks. They are already conditioned to free. They will build a machine at home to save $20-50 assembly fee. Get no guarantee. Some do it because they like the pain. They are not the market. They are not the market They are not the market The market is the 90 million annoyed, frustrated Windows Users who will soon be told to join a subscriber thing or else. The market even bigger and better is the 300 million people out there who would buy a computer if it wasn't all so confusing and threatening and full of 20 y.o. kids showing off in electronic stores using all the latest splat words. Instead of a nice older person who smiles and arranges their home installation for them and a training session on the Net to hook them into a User Support Group Mandrake could own it. Cheap low-level hardware. Cheap Operating System Cheap Software Built-in giant underground support network. Jobs as installers for hundreds of junior geeks Jobs as tutors for hundreds of older Users. It would all be so easy. Cheers, Him Again - Original Message - From: Todd Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:59:34 +1000 john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The very idea of charity is a repugnant thing when viewed intelligently. Support aid is something else entirely. But buying value!! Could you explain this a little more? snip But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. I would never have downloaded and tried Mandrake if I had had to pay. I was not willing
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:46:14 +1000 john rigby john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, 20 million at just $10 each = $200 million - with no distribution costs. 20 million x 680, 1360, or 2040Mb ( 1, 2, or 3 disks ) = a whole lot of money in bandwidth. -- °°° Mandrake Linux 8.1 Kernel 2.4.8-26mdk KDE 2.2.1 Sylpheed 0.7.2 David L. Steiner Registered Linux User #262493 Homepagewww.davidlsteiner.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
