Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Bryan Phinney wrote: On Wednesday 29 September 2004 08:58, Lanman wrote: I really hate it when you do that! Just when I thought I had found a challenging intellectual adversary, you go and agree with me on something! Damn! Where's Albert Einstein when ya need him? *Snicker*! I like to keep my opponents off-guard and not get too predictable. ;-} I suppose that now, you're gonna tell me that I can't bill you for the new keyboard, aren't ya? Grin! Good thing it's a tax write-off for me. What I'm not getting from OGO, is the reasons why they felt it necessary to use a module (mod_ngobjweb.so) to handle the pages when most others use a web-page built using PHP. It just seems that they over complicated the construction of the suite. I suppose they had their reasons, but I'm not getting that quite yet. IMNSHO, it wasn't done in order to make the suite easier in most senses of the word, but perhaps it had something to do with an easier building of the suite. Well, we again seem to have come to some of the same conclusions. I did note that the packaging and even the product appears to be extremely modular as if by design. My own take on that was that they had VERY big plans for the product, sort of an everything but the kitchen sink kind of deal and were building that modular architecture in, related to those plans. Given the existing scope, I don't see the need currently but then again, there are a lot of other smaller more compact packages already that would be just as useable so they are perhaps planning to move in another direction and are planning ahead. It is much harder to make an existing product more modular than it is to build that capacity in from the beginning design. On a personal level, I don't like products that are too broad in scope, even if the supposition is that you want everything integrated. If you try to do too many things, usually you do none of them really well. Several reasons for my dislike, first, overly complex packages are harder from a QA perspective and thus prone to more problems. Second, trying to customize such a package is also more difficult and I don't know of very many businesses that are happy with an out of the box, vanilla product. Third, upgrades, patches, fixes are more complex and have to be tested broader and deeper because of the many layers of complexity and integration points. The modular architecture can help with this somewhat but tends to also mean that you need to build up complex skill sets in house to provide support and customization since you usually won't get that from the company (more true for commercial than OS but tends to match for all of them). And, the more modular nature also tends to detract from overall knowledge of the big picture of the package so that it is harder to tell where everything intersects and what changes in one module will affect other modules. Since OGO seems to be based on components from other groupware suites, it seems that they must have taken a turn somewhere that led them down a new path of construction, and this might be a factor. Most other ones I've looked at didn't give me SOPE hassles, and it wasn't necessary to build a module in order to get it working. If their focus is on integration of disparate components, especially from an enterprise level, this would explain a lot. I note that packages like SAP are extremely complex and in most cases, require virtual armies dedicated to their installation and configuration due to the many modules that can be attached to them. If their package is focused at the same functional design, but from a communications end, it would explain why the package is so complex and at least some of the apparent design decisions. Something along the lines of tying in a CRM system to enterprise email, and even perhaps hooking that up to some type of ERP type system. Once you start talking about all of these very different types of system being integrated, you would need a pretty complex package with either a lot of integration points or a very modular type of design. Well, there goes the neighbourhood! Hey Ma! Best get out the rock salt! Seems we is gonna need to make us up a big batch o' shells! Them civilized types is a movin' in next door! These ones are a slippery bunch o' fancy-pants big city types, so watch yerself! Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 I just watched that guvmint guy driving away, sittin' thar on that sack o' seeds! (Unknown artist from the 70's) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 04:37, Stephen Kühn wrote: ..you must be as stoned as you think I am... was then... -- linux counter #167806 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Friday 24 September 2004 17:46, Lanman wrote: Glad to be of service gents! Sigh! Now I'm off to scrape the callouses off of my fingertips. but still have not learned one iota about how to setup oGo, adn what I did learn was just enough to have me try out the install of ogo, enough to bork up my Apache install. -- linux counter #167806 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 18:27, et wrote: On Friday 24 September 2004 17:46, Lanman wrote: Glad to be of service gents! Sigh! Now I'm off to scrape the callouses off of my fingertips. but still have not learned one iota about how to setup oGo, adn what I did learn was just enough to have me try out the install of ogo, enough to bork up my Apache install. I think you tink droo much... ...you must be as stoned as you think I am... -- stephen kuhn __ mobile 0410.728.389 GNU/Linux, GPL and OpenSource alternatives for the public __ * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents __ Mandrake GNU/Linux 10.0 OE/Kernel 2.6.3-7/ No Viruses here. Did any of them kids have some space alien with a face like a friendly turd in a bike basket? -- (Terry Pratchett Neil Gaiman, Good Omens) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
et wrote: On Friday 24 September 2004 17:46, Lanman wrote: Glad to be of service gents! Sigh! Now I'm off to scrape the callouses off of my fingertips. but still have not learned one iota about how to setup oGo, adn what I did learn was just enough to have me try out the install of ogo, enough to bork up my Apache install. et, et al (was that a pun?) Having gone through this too many times to count, having gone a few rounds with Bryan on the overall philosophy of Linux and Open-Source and having replaced my keyboard as a result, my suggestion is to leave OGO where it is - on the contribs list, and to focus on the usable groupware suites like Egroupware, PHProjekt, or SugarCRM, since they are well documented, and can be relatively easily installed, and configured. IMNSHO, It should be left on a development list somewhere until it it at least configurable. Further research on OGO has shown that the SOPE components won't compile on Mandrake 10.0, and without that you're left with several hours or days of work that don't accomplish a thing except to increase ones' frustration. Now, having said all of that, you can count on someone flaming me for suggesting that OGO be left where it is until it's a tad more user-friendly, etc. Sigh! Here we go again! I'm thinking that Stephen's approach might at least be more enjoyable than actually trying to get OGO up and running. I may sound like a broken record (oops! I meant skipping CD!), but an least I'm consistent! -- Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 07:45, Lanman wrote: IMNSHO, It should be left on a development list somewhere until it it at least configurable. Further research on OGO has shown that the SOPE components won't compile on Mandrake 10.0, and without that you're left with several hours or days of work that don't accomplish a thing except to increase ones' frustration. Now, having said all of that, you can count on someone flaming me for suggesting that OGO be left where it is until it's a tad more user-friendly, etc. Sigh! Here we go again! For the record, I think that is a very sensible proposal for a package that seems to be difficult to install and configure. I did do some checking into the packages on contrib as well as looking at some of the installation documents and came to much the same conclusion myself. oGo does not look like it is a suitable product for anyone that is not either familiar with the product already, or willing to put a lot of manual labor into getting it up and working. -- Bryan Phinney Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Bryan Phinney wrote: On Wednesday 29 September 2004 07:45, Lanman wrote: IMNSHO, It should be left on a development list somewhere until it it at least configurable. Further research on OGO has shown that the SOPE components won't compile on Mandrake 10.0, and without that you're left with several hours or days of work that don't accomplish a thing except to increase ones' frustration. Now, having said all of that, you can count on someone flaming me for suggesting that OGO be left where it is until it's a tad more user-friendly, etc. Sigh! Here we go again! For the record, I think that is a very sensible proposal for a package that seems to be difficult to install and configure. I did do some checking into the packages on contrib as well as looking at some of the installation documents and came to much the same conclusion myself. oGo does not look like it is a suitable product for anyone that is not either familiar with the product already, or willing to put a lot of manual labor into getting it up and working. Bryan, I really hate it when you do that! Just when I thought I had found a challenging intellectual adversary, you go and agree with me on something! Damn! Where's Albert Einstein when ya need him? *Snicker*! I suppose that now, you're gonna tell me that I can't bill you for the new keyboard, aren't ya? Grin! Good thing it's a tax write-off for me. What I'm not getting from OGO, is the reasons why they felt it necessary to use a module (mod_ngobjweb.so) to handle the pages when most others use a web-page built using PHP. It just seems that they over complicated the construction of the suite. I suppose they had their reasons, but I'm not getting that quite yet. IMNSHO, it wasn't done in order to make the suite easier in most senses of the word, but perhaps it had something to do with an easier building of the suite. Since OGO seems to be based on components from other groupware suites, it seems that they must have taken a turn somewhere that led them down a new path of construction, and this might be a factor. Most other ones I've looked at didn't give me SOPE hassles, and it wasn't necessary to build a module in order to get it working. I'm assuming they must have had good reasons, but IMO, it would have been a lot better if they had setup a usable PHP-based admin page where you could do all the configs and see where your errors were. Some of the other suites already have that - ie; EGroupware. At least that way you can see your exact errors and eliminate them one at a time until it's all working. But, Like I said,...that's just my opinion - for what it's worth. Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 08:58, Lanman wrote: I really hate it when you do that! Just when I thought I had found a challenging intellectual adversary, you go and agree with me on something! Damn! Where's Albert Einstein when ya need him? *Snicker*! I like to keep my opponents off-guard and not get too predictable. ;-} I suppose that now, you're gonna tell me that I can't bill you for the new keyboard, aren't ya? Grin! Good thing it's a tax write-off for me. What I'm not getting from OGO, is the reasons why they felt it necessary to use a module (mod_ngobjweb.so) to handle the pages when most others use a web-page built using PHP. It just seems that they over complicated the construction of the suite. I suppose they had their reasons, but I'm not getting that quite yet. IMNSHO, it wasn't done in order to make the suite easier in most senses of the word, but perhaps it had something to do with an easier building of the suite. Well, we again seem to have come to some of the same conclusions. I did note that the packaging and even the product appears to be extremely modular as if by design. My own take on that was that they had VERY big plans for the product, sort of an everything but the kitchen sink kind of deal and were building that modular architecture in, related to those plans. Given the existing scope, I don't see the need currently but then again, there are a lot of other smaller more compact packages already that would be just as useable so they are perhaps planning to move in another direction and are planning ahead. It is much harder to make an existing product more modular than it is to build that capacity in from the beginning design. On a personal level, I don't like products that are too broad in scope, even if the supposition is that you want everything integrated. If you try to do too many things, usually you do none of them really well. Several reasons for my dislike, first, overly complex packages are harder from a QA perspective and thus prone to more problems. Second, trying to customize such a package is also more difficult and I don't know of very many businesses that are happy with an out of the box, vanilla product. Third, upgrades, patches, fixes are more complex and have to be tested broader and deeper because of the many layers of complexity and integration points. The modular architecture can help with this somewhat but tends to also mean that you need to build up complex skill sets in house to provide support and customization since you usually won't get that from the company (more true for commercial than OS but tends to match for all of them). And, the more modular nature also tends to detract from overall knowledge of the big picture of the package so that it is harder to tell where everything intersects and what changes in one module will affect other modules. Since OGO seems to be based on components from other groupware suites, it seems that they must have taken a turn somewhere that led them down a new path of construction, and this might be a factor. Most other ones I've looked at didn't give me SOPE hassles, and it wasn't necessary to build a module in order to get it working. If their focus is on integration of disparate components, especially from an enterprise level, this would explain a lot. I note that packages like SAP are extremely complex and in most cases, require virtual armies dedicated to their installation and configuration due to the many modules that can be attached to them. If their package is focused at the same functional design, but from a communications end, it would explain why the package is so complex and at least some of the apparent design decisions. Something along the lines of tying in a CRM system to enterprise email, and even perhaps hooking that up to some type of ERP type system. Once you start talking about all of these very different types of system being integrated, you would need a pretty complex package with either a lot of integration points or a very modular type of design. -- Bryan Phinney Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Maybe you are using the wrong Distro. since that is what Mandrake is about. maybe you should look at Gentoo :) snip Sorry, I simply don't agree. If making it easier means sacrificing features, freedom, customization, then I don't want it to be any easier./snip On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 19:00, Bryan Phinney wrote: On Thursday 23 September 2004 16:25, Lanman wrote: Feel free to get as annoyed as you want, but I beg to differ on some of your points of view. Still, I respect the fact that you have a right to them, and I'm not saying that mine is better than yours but consider this,... Differences are what makes the world an interesting place. I find that many times, scripts are written from the personal point of view. That is, from the perspective of a person who has done several installs of a program, and has prepared the system in advance. Many things which would normally be included in a script file, are omitted on purpose - since the person writing the script didn't need it for their own install (assuming that their database or apache config had already been completed), or by accident simply due to the fact that the script writer felt that anyone using the script would have already done these preparations. I can think of a multitude of other reasons, all of which would point to the human-factor. We have nothing to disagree about here. Again, I was suggesting that the script be used as a guide. See their steps, figure out if something is missing and fill in the blanks. I always keep in mind that an RPM usually installs the necessary files but doesn't necessarily configure the environment. I have worked with a lot of packages so far that needed to be configured after I installed the RPM, I don't count on those to be one-stop installations. You can count me into the Others category here. Helping others is one of the way that my company contributes back to the Linux community. I make it the responsibility of every employee to contribute something, even though I'm the one paying their salaries while they're out helping on a volunteer basis. They select the person or persons or groups they will assist and we allot a salary incentive to those staff members who can track and vouch for that time. When I waltz in and ask for help, I'm not asking for a lecture or perspective on whether or not the help is billable or not. I've taken hours and days out of my time to help others on this list (past and present), and will continue to do so in the future. For me, it's not always a question of money. If you're curious, I'd be willing to send you a short list of some of the most recent times I've helped others. I don't really need one, and I am not questioning whether you have contributed or helped someone. I am questioning the tone of your second message that was basically, if I can't get this to work and no one helps me to get it working, then Gnu/Linux isn't insert FUD phrase here. First of all, whether ogo works or not is no reflection on Linux. Second, whether or not that particular package works for you is not a reflection of anything more than that that particular package is not working for you. I never fault anything else first before I fault myself. That said, I have often come out vigorously against people who have seemed to suggest that if they didn't get what they wanted, then somehow Linux was at fault and it was not worth bothering with. I still find the tone of such a suggestion infuriating. Fortunately for both of us, I wasn't saying I can't get something to work, can someone give me exact instructions to make it work in my environment, with my installed software, telling me exactly what to do, I was asking if anyone had managed to get it working in Mandrake and whether they could help or not. If you need a reminder of that, I'll be happy to re-post my original message. I remember the first message, and I will note that I did not GRRR until you posted your second one. Like I said in my previous post, I fail to see why anyone would bother to make and include the RPM's for something that can't be installed easily. If Linux is going to make a bigger dent in the world, it's going to have to fix this type of problem. FYI, I consider 4 days sufficient time. Well, you know your own levels of expertise better than do I. Usually, I get something working the first time and then calculate sufficient time in future against the baseline. For what it is worth, my first Linux installation/configuration took about 6 months before I got things working well enough that I felt comfortable dumping Windows entirely. YMMV. However, like any smart consumer, I am not about to buy a package or pay for support for something that I haven't seen, and I would hope that you wouldn't either. All I've seen are a few screen shots which don't tell me whether
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Friday 24 September 2004 08:44, Scott Rineer wrote: Maybe you are using the wrong Distro. since that is what Mandrake is about. According to who? maybe you should look at Gentoo :) If you want an MS replacement, I believe that is pretty much the stated goal of Linspire. -- Bryan Phinney Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Friday 24 September 2004 14:44, Scott Rineer wrote: Maybe you are using the wrong Distro. since that is what Mandrake is about. maybe you should look at Gentoo :) snip Sorry, I simply don't agree. If making it easier means sacrificing features, freedom, customization, then I don't want it to be any easier./snip Scott that's where I strongly disagree with you and with the same right say that anyone who does want to give up features should be looking at Linspire. Being the nice list nazi that I am: If you hadn't top-posted you wouldn't have looked silly snipping from a complete message shown below anyway. And (as I didn't pay attention the first time) please get rid of the reply to... so's messages will go to the list instead of to you personally. -- Good luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Here we go again, Bryan Phinney wrote: I don't really need one, and I am not questioning whether you have contributed or helped someone. I am questioning the tone of your second message that was basically, if I can't get this to work and no one helps me to get it working, then Gnu/Linux isn't insert FUD phrase here. First of all, whether ogo works or not is no reflection on Linux. Second, whether or not that particular package works for you is not a reflection of anything more than that that particular package is not working for you. I never fault anything else first before I fault myself. I often use the term Linux as a general term which is intended to include Open-Source software and the concepts behind it. This is mostly due to the perception of consumers whom I deal with daily. In order to shorten those conversations, I will often use Linux to represent both the OS and the Open-Source software . After all, Mandrake calls it Mandrake-Linux, not Mandrake-Linux plus a whack of Open-Source software, and neither do I. I will however make an effort to point out that I mean both the OS and the extra software when I refer to them collectively as Linux. I'm probably not the only one to do that. When I mentioned this earlier, I meant that the public's perception of Linux extends to include most Open-Sourced software which runs on Linux. That being the case, I too have adopted that attitude, for better or for worse, but it tends to keeps my conversations with clients a lot shorter than they could be. That said, there is no way on this green earth that it should take 4 days to get something the likes of OGO to work. I fail to see how you interpreted my exasperation at the difficulties I was having with OGO as a FUD statement, or that I was comparing OGO to Microsoft. My second post states; If Linux is going to make a bigger dent in the world, it's going to have to fix this type of problem. To clarify this, I meant that consumers will expect Linux (read as Linux and Open-Source software) to be installable and usable without the type of problems that I've encountered with OGO. While they may experience no difficulty in getting Linux installed and running, they will not be very happy about switching to Linux if other applications are as difficult to set up as OGO has shown me to be. They certainly won't spend 4 days on it. Most IT's and sysadmins won't be allowed that much time to get it working. Many people and/or companies making the switch have been used to installing and configuring Microsoft-based software and applications. In most cases, that software is not difficult to configure and on those occasions when it is, the documentation is clear enough to walk them through the complicated parts and to get them up and running. OGO doesn't even come close. In many of these instances, they have switched to Linux because they've been told of the virtues of Linux, only to be disappointed with something that has proven to be too difficult to install or to get running. In some cases it was due to a management decision, and as we've seen on this list lately due to people getting fed-up with the problems they've faced with Windows. Does it make any sense for them to swap one set of problems for another? That said, I have often come out vigorously against people who have seemed to suggest that if they didn't get what they wanted, then somehow Linux was at fault and it was not worth bothering with. I still find the tone of such a suggestion infuriating. As infuriating as it might make you, I was reffering to the user experience and all O-S software, including the O/S. Take it whichever way you'd like but that's just the way things are. They will assume that Linux (et al) is far too complicated, especially if they can't even get OGO running enough so as to get to the main configuration page. At least a running OGO will give them confidence in their abilities to learn more about it or to recommend it for deployment. Worst-case scenario, they'll have an opportunity to see if they can at least get it back to defaults if they screw something up afterwards. Like I said in my previous post, I fail to see why anyone would bother to make and include the RPM's for something that can't be installed easily. If Linux is going to make a bigger dent in the world, it's going to have to fix this type of problem. FYI, I consider 4 days sufficient time. Well, you know your own levels of expertise better than do I. Usually, I get something working the first time and then calculate sufficient time in future against the baseline. For what it is worth, my first Linux installation/configuration took about 6 months before I got things working well enough that I felt comfortable dumping Windows entirely. YMMV. Yes, I do know my own levels. Getting something to work the first time seems to be the norm for both of us. However, my approach is to immediately find ways to save the installation procedures,
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Friday 24 September 2004 10:31, Lanman wrote: To clarify this, I meant that consumers will expect Linux (read as Linux and Open-Source software) to be installable and usable without the type of problems that I've encountered with OGO. While they may experience no difficulty in getting Linux installed and running, they will not be very happy about switching to Linux if other applications are as difficult to set up as OGO has shown me to be. They certainly won't spend 4 days on it. Most IT's and sysadmins won't be allowed that much time to get it working. Well, let's just get down to the bottom line here, rather than continuing what appears to be a pointless debate. If Mandrake wants to sell a product to consumers that is marketed along the lines of it being a drop-in replacement for Windows/commercial software, then they will certainly need to work on making their distribution match up well with what is currently offered in Windows/commercial software. I don't personally think that is what they are trying to do. I think that if they do go down that path, they will get trounced badly by MS because it already has the comparitive advantage there. The only way that I can see to make a non-MS OS living is to pick a new business model (the commodity OS with custom services) and compete there. I expect that a lot of Linux companies are looking to put out a product that is relatively easy to get to work and depend on pre-installations on machines for those that don't want to learn anything, and sell services on the side to the others. I think that in order to duplicate Windows, you will need to duplicate everything about their business model. In other words, if you want seamless, ease of use, out of the box, then all the developers concerned will have to be controlled so that they deliver the same thing. Much like a franchise restaurant. You don't go to McDonalds to get new, inventive cooking. You go because you know exactly what you will get, regardless of which restaurant you go to. I, personally, don't want to trade one slave master in the form of Microsoft for another. So, I prefer for Gnu/Linux to be enough of a commodity system that if I decide I don't like the direction of one distribution, I can switch over to another. My preference. Perhaps you don't share it. Many people and/or companies making the switch have been used to installing and configuring Microsoft-based software and applications. In most cases, that software is not difficult to configure and on those occasions when it is, the documentation is clear enough to walk them through the complicated parts and to get them up and running. OGO doesn't even come close. Again, I will reiterate here, Lanman, OGO is an Enterprise level Groupware product. How many consumers do you think are in the market to install an enterprise level groupware product in their home? Is it just me, or are your expectations for this particular type of product a little high? Peoplesoft is not an easy product to install. SAP is not an easy product to install. Lotus Notes is not an easy product to install. All of these things share a couple of things in common. First, they are enterprise level and thus very complex. Second, they usually aren't picked up out of Best Buy, by Joe Sixpack for him to install and use at his house. In many of these instances, they have switched to Linux because they've been told of the virtues of Linux, only to be disappointed with something that has proven to be too difficult to install or to get running. In some cases it was due to a management decision, and as we've seen on this list lately due to people getting fed-up with the problems they've faced with Windows. Does it make any sense for them to swap one set of problems for another? To gain freedom, yes. To switch from one being locked into one vendor to another one, no. If my interpretation of your above statement is correct, your POV of enterprises could use a bit of an update. Enterprises spend as much time as possible evaluating new solutions, and when a Linux-based application is considered, they either do their own in-house evaluations or hire a company or consultant such as myself (et al) to provide that information or service. Yes, my point was that they hire someone else. Most do not have the expertise in-house and at any rate, they want someone else to assume the risk for getting problems worked out, right? So they hire a consultant and don't even look at the package itself, they just have a list of features that they want and vendors/contractors et al agree to meet that list. The point here is that any company or community organization building Open-Source solutions has the ability to make their products easier to install and configure. In doing so, they also have the ability to define the requirements of their software. That type of definition could solve much of the problems
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Here's the last of it Bryan, Bryan Phinney wrote: Well, let's just get down to the bottom line here, rather than continuing what appears to be a pointless debate. This is the first and only thing you wrote that makes perfect sense to me. I asked the list for help and bitched about OGO and the need to improve it and other Open-Source software. You got your nose out of joint about my comments and that's where it essentially ended. Everything else was philosophy, perspective, opinions. At that point, this conversation should have been sent to the OT list, or we should have both kept further comments to ourselves. So, let's do ourselves a favour and either continue this off list, or drop it. We both have opinions, we both believe we're right, and we work in different parts of the industry. That alone should tell us that we're bound to have different opinions. I vented my frustrations at the piss-poor effort someone made with OGO, and you vented about my venting. I think this ones a dead horse. So the next time you see a post from me on the list and you don't like my comments, just spent a few hours typing GRRR! on your keyboard and leave it at that, OK? No amount of expressing your comments will change my perspective and vice-versa. Let's move on, cause we both have better things to do and I don't want to waste any more resources on this. Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:00:26 -0400 Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's the last of it Bryan, Bryan Phinney wrote: Well, let's just get down to the bottom line here, rather than continuing what appears to be a pointless debate. This is the first and only thing you wrote that makes perfect sense to me. I asked the list for help and bitched about OGO and the need to improve it and other Open-Source software. You got your nose out of joint about my comments and that's where it essentially ended. Everything else was philosophy, perspective, opinions. At that point, this conversation should have been sent to the OT list, or we should have both kept further comments to ourselves. So, let's do ourselves a favour and either continue this off list, or drop it. We both have opinions, we both believe we're right, and we work in different parts of the industry. That alone should tell us that we're bound to have different opinions. I vented my frustrations at the piss-poor effort someone made with OGO, and you vented about my venting. I think this ones a dead horse. So the next time you see a post from me on the list and you don't like my comments, just spent a few hours typing GRRR! on your keyboard and leave it at that, OK? No amount of expressing your comments will change my perspective and vice-versa. Let's move on, cause we both have better things to do and I don't want to waste any more resources on this. Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 Brian and LM Thanks for the discussion. It helped me understand both my frustration at putting the office back on win2k and reinforced my intention of nailing them with mdk again next year. Lee -- My new address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Current address will not work after December. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Friday 24 September 2004 18:03, Lee Wiggers wrote: Thanks for the discussion. It helped me understand both my frustration at putting the office back on win2k and reinforced my intention of nailing them with mdk again next year. Yep, It was an interesting little joust wasn't it? Picked up some nice pointers from both:) Especially B's remark about users convinced of the right of being stupid because they were thus encouraged by the software they used' brought some puzzling previous experiences into perspective. I suppose ease_of_use/idiot-proof and flexibility/choice don't go together well. It's up to us to create the best usable compromise and discussions like these certainly help. -- Good luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Friday 24 September 2004 16:10, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: On Friday 24 September 2004 18:03, Lee Wiggers wrote: Thanks for the discussion. It helped me understand both my frustration at putting the office back on win2k and reinforced my intention of nailing them with mdk again next year. Yep, It was an interesting little joust wasn't it? Picked up some nice pointers from both:) Especially B's remark about users convinced of the right of being stupid because they were thus encouraged by the software they used' brought some puzzling previous experiences into perspective. I suppose ease_of_use/idiot-proof and flexibility/choice don't go together well. It's up to us to create the best usable compromise and discussions like these certainly help. I agree and thank both for a lively discussion. -- Regards; Hoyt Registered Linux User #363264 http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Hoyt Bailey wrote: On Friday 24 September 2004 16:10, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: On Friday 24 September 2004 18:03, Lee Wiggers wrote: Thanks for the discussion. It helped me understand both my frustration at putting the office back on win2k and reinforced my intention of nailing them with mdk again next year. Yep, It was an interesting little joust wasn't it? Picked up some nice pointers from both:) Especially B's remark about users convinced of the right of being stupid because they were thus encouraged by the software they used' brought some puzzling previous experiences into perspective. I suppose ease_of_use/idiot-proof and flexibility/choice don't go together well. It's up to us to create the best usable compromise and discussions like these certainly help. I agree and thank both for a lively discussion. Glad to be of service gents! Sigh! Now I'm off to scrape the callouses off of my fingertips. Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:21:28 -0400 Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone had any luck getting OpenGroupware to work? I've been beating this thing to death for the last several days with no luck whatsoever. The packages are available from the Contribs list, and they install without a problem, but no amount of reading the documentation, following the install procedures or wading through the mail archives on their site has helped. What amazes me is how the installation of something like OpenGroupware can be this difficult or complicated. Surely, with the power and flexibility of Linux and Open-Sourced software, this shouldn't be a problem? After all, what's the sense of wasting time to create Mandrake RPMs for something that simply doesn't work? If anyone has some helpful advice on how to get this thing working, I'd appreciate any help you can offer. For reference sake, I've tried setting it up on Mandrake 9.2 and 10.0 using Apache 1.3 and 2.0.50 with no luck at all. I'm either seeing blank pages when I try to browse to the initial page (which is used to complete configurations and is the default page when OpenGroupware is first launched), or I'm getting connection errors from the server I've installed it on. Apache is working fine, since it's serving other non-related pages without any errors or problems, and PostGreSQL builds the database for OpenGroupware without a problem. TIA -- Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 I have been holding this waiting for someone to respond. Guess this means that nobody has made it work, me included. The service is running, but I haven't a clue what to do next. (It's been running since last year sometime. Lee -- My new address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Current address will not work after December. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Lee Wiggers wrote: On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:21:28 -0400 Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone had any luck getting OpenGroupware to work? I've been beating this thing to death for the last several days with no luck whatsoever. The packages are available from the Contribs list, and they install without a problem, but no amount of reading the documentation, following the install procedures or wading through the mail archives on their site has helped. What amazes me is how the installation of something like OpenGroupware can be this difficult or complicated. Surely, with the power and flexibility of Linux and Open-Sourced software, this shouldn't be a problem? After all, what's the sense of wasting time to create Mandrake RPMs for something that simply doesn't work? If anyone has some helpful advice on how to get this thing working, I'd appreciate any help you can offer. For reference sake, I've tried setting it up on Mandrake 9.2 and 10.0 using Apache 1.3 and 2.0.50 with no luck at all. I'm either seeing blank pages when I try to browse to the initial page (which is used to complete configurations and is the default page when OpenGroupware is first launched), or I'm getting connection errors from the server I've installed it on. Apache is working fine, since it's serving other non-related pages without any errors or problems, and PostGreSQL builds the database for OpenGroupware without a problem. TIA -- Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 I have been holding this waiting for someone to respond. Guess this means that nobody has made it work, me included. The service is running, but I haven't a clue what to do next. (It's been running since last year sometime. Lee Thanks for replying Lee. I've gone ahead and installed Red Hat 9.0 on the system ear-marked for OpenGroupware in the hopes that I can get it to work today. I'll report back if I have any success. Like I said in my previous post, I fail to see why anyone would bother to make and include the RPM's for something that can't be installed easily. If Linux is going to make a bigger dent in the world, it's going to have to fix this type of problem. Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Thursday 23 September 2004 06:59, Lanman wrote: If Linux is going to make a bigger dent in the world, it's going to have to fix this type of problem. GRRR. -- Bryan Phinney Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
I do agree with most of Bryan is saying... what I think is the problem, is that open source software is Hyped to work the same or better than commercial software. that is where the frustration comes from. On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 12:32, Bryan Phinney wrote: On Thursday 23 September 2004 10:58, Lanman wrote: Thanks Brian, but I've tried that script file about 10 times, I've used parts of the file at least 4 or 5 times, and it's only worked partially. I've also found 5 different sets of instructions written for Mandrake and Redhat (take your pick of version numbers), and each time had different results. Given that someone wrote it and it appears to work for them, you might consider it a starting point and go through it line by line to see what they are doing in the script and then try to apply it to your installation. I know that is a lengthy process, however, there probably is a quicker way and that is to hire someone who has done it before and have them do it. If you go the cheap route, you should be prepared to expend some time and effort on it. I don't mind trying to help out where I can but if I need to tell someone exactly what to do, step by step, I am probably going to be sending them an invoice after the fact. Others here might not feel the same way. If I were already using the package and you were asking for assistance with specific problems that I thought I could help with, I would try to help. If you waltz in and say, I can't get something to work, can someone give me exact instructions to make it work in my environment, with my installed software, telling me exactly what to do, my first impulse is to turn on the timer for my hourly bill rate. My earlier comments about ease of installation refer to the fact that the installation instructions on the pages your mentioned are not written in a logical order, and the scripts don't fully complete a workable installation. I am not running OGO, however, my understanding is that it is an enterprise level package that provides a large amount of functionality with many components and tying to a large variety of background archictectures. My expectation for such a package, especially one as new as OGO would be that it would require some effort to integrate it into any particular environment. If your needs are not so complex to warrant the use of such a package, there are other options available. If your needs are such that you do need such a complex package, you should be prepared to spend the time necessary to get it to work. Another option would be to buy a package, pay for support and get someone to do it for you. As an example, they don't check to see if PostGreSQl is installed, don't create the database or add the user to PostGreSQL or for that matter don't detect and finsh configuration of Apache. They mention that Postgresql can be used as well as other types of SQL databases. So, they don't assume postgresql on the off chance that you want to use something else. The small part of installation instructions that I read indicate that you must install postgresql and create the database separately, or provide some other database. Detecting which version of Apache, 2 or 1.3 and then properly configuring it including creating virtual directory entries, setting access and getting past whatever security (within Apache) you have or would desire would on the surface, appear to be complex too. Add in whether you are going to do purely SSL access or allow open http access. Throw in the diverse number of environments, flavors of Linux, security, etc. and I can totally understand why a script that someone wrote for themselves might not be totally working for you out of the box. That may sound like a lot, but I've seen other install scripts work for effectively, such as the ones for webmin, macromedia flash, and adobe's acrobat reader. Even the installers for ATI and NVidia drivers are a bit more friendly than this one. Funny you mention that, since the most recent release of Nvidia drivers installation script doesn't work with Mandrake. And install scripts for Microsoft Exchange might be easier than ogo as well. That is very much totally beside the point. You are not working with those packages or those developers, you are working with ogo. I totally understand someone getting frustrated when something doesn't work. I also understand someone REQUESTING help. What I do not accept is the tone that one takes when they EXPECT something to work or that if it doesn't work for them, then there is something wrong with Linux or Open Source. Linux requires more effort than something that you buy from someone. That is the nature of it. Comparing a free product that was given to you with a product that earned the authors millions of dollars in revenue is simply not a material comparison. Give me money
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Thursday 23 September 2004 12:57, Scott Rineer wrote: I do agree with most of Bryan is saying... what I think is the problem, is that open source software is Hyped to work the same or better than commercial software. that is where the frustration comes from. Well, in point of fact, it does work the same and often better than commercial software, it just isn't as simple and easy. Saying that something is better is not the same as saying that it is equivalent in every characteristic and feature. I don't know where anyone else is hearing their hype but where I hear mine from, it has never been saying that Linux is as easy as Windows/Mac/etc. -- Bryan Phinney Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
Bryan, Feel free to get as annoyed as you want, but I beg to differ on some of your points of view. Still, I respect the fact that you have a right to them, and I'm not saying that mine is better than yours but consider this,... snip Bryan Phinney wrote: Given that someone wrote it and it appears to work for them, you might consider it a starting point and go through it line by line to see what they are doing in the script and then try to apply it to your installation. I know that is a lengthy process, however, there probably is a quicker way and that is to hire someone who has done it before and have them do it. If you go the cheap route, you should be prepared to expend some time and effort on it. I find that many times, scripts are written from the personal point of view. That is, from the perspective of a person who has done several installs of a program, and has prepared the system in advance. Many things which would normally be included in a script file, are omitted on purpose - since the person writing the script didn't need it for their own install (assuming that their database or apache config had already been completed), or by accident simply due to the fact that the script writer felt that anyone using the script would have already done these preparations. I can think of a multitude of other reasons, all of which would point to the human-factor. I don't mind trying to help out where I can but if I need to tell someone exactly what to do, step by step, I am probably going to be sending them an invoice after the fact. Others here might not feel the same way. If I were already using the package and you were asking for assistance with specific problems that I thought I could help with, I would try to help. If you waltz in and say, I can't get something to work, can someone give me exact instructions to make it work in my environment, with my installed software, telling me exactly what to do, my first impulse is to turn on the timer for my hourly bill rate. You can count me into the Others category here. Helping others is one of the way that my company contributes back to the Linux community. I make it the responsibility of every employee to contribute something, even though I'm the one paying their salaries while they're out helping on a volunteer basis. They select the person or persons or groups they will assist and we allot a salary incentive to those staff members who can track and vouch for that time. When I waltz in and ask for help, I'm not asking for a lecture or perspective on whether or not the help is billable or not. I've taken hours and days out of my time to help others on this list (past and present), and will continue to do so in the future. For me, it's not always a question of money. If you're curious, I'd be willing to send you a short list of some of the most recent times I've helped others. Fortunately for both of us, I wasn't saying I can't get something to work, can someone give me exact instructions to make it work in my environment, with my installed software, telling me exactly what to do, I was asking if anyone had managed to get it working in Mandrake and whether they could help or not. If you need a reminder of that, I'll be happy to re-post my original message. My earlier comments about ease of installation refer to the fact that the installation instructions on the pages your mentioned are not written in a logical order, and the scripts don't fully complete a workable installation. I am not running OGO, however, my understanding is that it is an enterprise level package that provides a large amount of functionality with many components and tying to a large variety of background archictectures. My expectation for such a package, especially one as new as OGO would be that it would require some effort to integrate it into any particular environment. If your needs are not so complex to warrant the use of such a package, there are other options available. If your needs are such that you do need such a complex package, you should be prepared to spend the time necessary to get it to work. Another option would be to buy a package, pay for support and get someone to do it for you. FYI, I consider 4 days sufficient time. However, like any smart consumer, I am not about to buy a package or pay for support for something that I haven't seen, and I would hope that you wouldn't either. All I've seen are a few screen shots which don't tell me whether or not the product is stable or flexible or how customizable it may be. As an example, they don't check to see if PostGreSQl is installed, don't create the database or add the user to PostGreSQL or for that matter don't detect and finsh configuration of Apache. They mention that Postgresql can be used as well as other types of SQL databases. So, they don't assume postgresql on the off chance that you want to use something else. The small part of installation
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Thursday 23 September 2004 22:25, Lanman wrote: The fact that OGO is either missing a clear and precise installation document or simply doesn't work without some significant step that seems to be missing, means it's not quite there yet. End of story. Lanman, I'm not a groupware user so I wouldn't know if it even worked or not. I did see that there was a d'loadable liveCD offered on their (ogo)website. Might be worth checking it out to see if it's a Mdk problem only or not...wouldn't be the first time mdk messed up. In the contribs I noticed that ogo was offered as a very modular download..which usually means you have to install all of them or learn to live with random unexplainable crashes or side effects. Similar to the KDE packages; One for all and all for one! heh:) -- Good luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
H.J.Bathoorn wrote: On Thursday 23 September 2004 22:25, Lanman wrote: The fact that OGO is either missing a clear and precise installation document or simply doesn't work without some significant step that seems to be missing, means it's not quite there yet. End of story. Lanman, I'm not a groupware user so I wouldn't know if it even worked or not. I did see that there was a d'loadable liveCD offered on their (ogo)website. Might be worth checking it out to see if it's a Mdk problem only or not...wouldn't be the first time mdk messed up. In the contribs I noticed that ogo was offered as a very modular download..which usually means you have to install all of them or learn to live with random unexplainable crashes or side effects. Similar to the KDE packages; One for all and all for one! heh:) HJ, Yeah, I made a point of installing all the packages. A lot of times dude. Sigh! However, I might try the LiveCD to see if I can grab the necessary configs from it or see if I've missed anything. That's the last option left at this point. Thanks for the info. I'm fairly sure it isn't an MDK problem, but I'm willing to give it one last shot. I'll let you know what I find out. In the meantime, I'm already evaluating EGroupware and PHProjekt both of which went in without a hitch. Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] OpenGroupware
On Thursday 23 September 2004 16:25, Lanman wrote: Feel free to get as annoyed as you want, but I beg to differ on some of your points of view. Still, I respect the fact that you have a right to them, and I'm not saying that mine is better than yours but consider this,... Differences are what makes the world an interesting place. I find that many times, scripts are written from the personal point of view. That is, from the perspective of a person who has done several installs of a program, and has prepared the system in advance. Many things which would normally be included in a script file, are omitted on purpose - since the person writing the script didn't need it for their own install (assuming that their database or apache config had already been completed), or by accident simply due to the fact that the script writer felt that anyone using the script would have already done these preparations. I can think of a multitude of other reasons, all of which would point to the human-factor. We have nothing to disagree about here. Again, I was suggesting that the script be used as a guide. See their steps, figure out if something is missing and fill in the blanks. I always keep in mind that an RPM usually installs the necessary files but doesn't necessarily configure the environment. I have worked with a lot of packages so far that needed to be configured after I installed the RPM, I don't count on those to be one-stop installations. You can count me into the Others category here. Helping others is one of the way that my company contributes back to the Linux community. I make it the responsibility of every employee to contribute something, even though I'm the one paying their salaries while they're out helping on a volunteer basis. They select the person or persons or groups they will assist and we allot a salary incentive to those staff members who can track and vouch for that time. When I waltz in and ask for help, I'm not asking for a lecture or perspective on whether or not the help is billable or not. I've taken hours and days out of my time to help others on this list (past and present), and will continue to do so in the future. For me, it's not always a question of money. If you're curious, I'd be willing to send you a short list of some of the most recent times I've helped others. I don't really need one, and I am not questioning whether you have contributed or helped someone. I am questioning the tone of your second message that was basically, if I can't get this to work and no one helps me to get it working, then Gnu/Linux isn't insert FUD phrase here. First of all, whether ogo works or not is no reflection on Linux. Second, whether or not that particular package works for you is not a reflection of anything more than that that particular package is not working for you. I never fault anything else first before I fault myself. That said, I have often come out vigorously against people who have seemed to suggest that if they didn't get what they wanted, then somehow Linux was at fault and it was not worth bothering with. I still find the tone of such a suggestion infuriating. Fortunately for both of us, I wasn't saying I can't get something to work, can someone give me exact instructions to make it work in my environment, with my installed software, telling me exactly what to do, I was asking if anyone had managed to get it working in Mandrake and whether they could help or not. If you need a reminder of that, I'll be happy to re-post my original message. I remember the first message, and I will note that I did not GRRR until you posted your second one. Like I said in my previous post, I fail to see why anyone would bother to make and include the RPM's for something that can't be installed easily. If Linux is going to make a bigger dent in the world, it's going to have to fix this type of problem. FYI, I consider 4 days sufficient time. Well, you know your own levels of expertise better than do I. Usually, I get something working the first time and then calculate sufficient time in future against the baseline. For what it is worth, my first Linux installation/configuration took about 6 months before I got things working well enough that I felt comfortable dumping Windows entirely. YMMV. However, like any smart consumer, I am not about to buy a package or pay for support for something that I haven't seen, and I would hope that you wouldn't either. All I've seen are a few screen shots which don't tell me whether or not the product is stable or flexible or how customizable it may be. No, I probably wouldn't myself. Then again, I am not in need of an enterprise level groupware application and my understanding is that enterprises who are in that market do so all the time. Not that it is a good idea, mind you, but they do buy them sight unseen. However, for the record, the web site has an image of a
[newbie] OpenGroupware
Has anyone had any luck getting OpenGroupware to work? I've been beating this thing to death for the last several days with no luck whatsoever. The packages are available from the Contribs list, and they install without a problem, but no amount of reading the documentation, following the install procedures or wading through the mail archives on their site has helped. What amazes me is how the installation of something like OpenGroupware can be this difficult or complicated. Surely, with the power and flexibility of Linux and Open-Sourced software, this shouldn't be a problem? After all, what's the sense of wasting time to create Mandrake RPMs for something that simply doesn't work? If anyone has some helpful advice on how to get this thing working, I'd appreciate any help you can offer. For reference sake, I've tried setting it up on Mandrake 9.2 and 10.0 using Apache 1.3 and 2.0.50 with no luck at all. I'm either seeing blank pages when I try to browse to the initial page (which is used to complete configurations and is the default page when OpenGroupware is first launched), or I'm getting connection errors from the server I've installed it on. Apache is working fine, since it's serving other non-related pages without any errors or problems, and PostGreSQL builds the database for OpenGroupware without a problem. TIA -- Lanman Registered Linux User #190712 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
