Re: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband
On 1/7/06, vic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We already found WMD. We found a mobile weapons laboratory almost right > away. There were no chems in it but is was there. We know he had WMD because So what you're saying is that we invaded Iraq for an empty double-wide trailer? Are we invading Alabama next (no offense - Roll Tide)? Where are the "mushroom cloud" weapons we were told they had? > WE the US GAVE WMD to Iraq to fight Iran. > Please I thirst for intelligent convo.. > Prior to invasion Iraq's military FIRED on our US planes almost 50 TIMES. And exactly 0 U.S. soldiers died because of these shots. At this point we could just send in UAVs to do the patrolling over the then contained Iraq. Since the war 2193 U.S. citizens have been killed and 16155 soldiers (including my cousin) have been permantly wounded. -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
I am getting fat!! LOL!!! -=vic - Original Message - From: "Jim Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Billy Bob'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Dustin Goodwin'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'nycwireless'" Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:20 AM Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! Billy Bob, Let's see, GDP keeps on clicking at 3-4 % growth pretty much every year... The same was true in 2005. Inflation practically non-existent. Unemployment about as low as it's been ever in our history, Home ownership at an all time high. State of the country is such that those who the U.S classifies as in poverty often own televisions, phones, cars, and get food every day! Compare that to some other countries. We've removed one of the most evil dictators in history from power and in only 3 years that country, which has never known a democratic tradition, has easily made more progress than our own country in its first dozen years. We've done that, all the while suffering lower casualty rates than any war we've ever had to fight. We've influenced Libya to renounce its WMD program. We had a lot to do with freeing Lebanon from Syria's grip. Very likley that Assad in Syria will fall this year After being attacked in 2001, our country's defense and security forces have prevented all attempts since. I am not naïve enough to believe that al Queda hasn't tried. Simultaneously we have set up a kill zone in Iraq where every every month hundreds of terrorists from all over the world continue to funnel in, while we continue to capture and kill them. While our economy just keeps on humming, the economies of western Europe continue to sputter. So how exactly do you MEASURE a good economy?? Probably the greatest problem facing Americans today is that we are getting FAT?? Jim -Original Message- From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! No... I'm not kidding. If you really believe that, then you live in LaLa land. Not only does our economy suck but so does our current state of our country as a whole. -Original Message- From: Jim Henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:58 AM To: 'Billy Bob'; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! You're kidding, right? ;-) > -Original Message- > From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:08 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > "...we have the strongest economy in the world"... > > Where do you live?? > > Certainly not here. > > Bruce > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim > Henry > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:20 PM > To: 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > OK, guess I should have read the article first:-). No thanks to govt. > subsidized broadband. We already have too much of a socialist load on > our economy. The fact that we have less socialism than most other > countries is probably the main reason that we have the strongest > economy in the world, > the envy of other nations. Just my two cents. > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Dustin > > Goodwin > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:40 AM > > To: nycwireless > > Subject: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > If you think you have a well developed theory on the why or > why not of > > the municipal broadband debate you must read this article. Some of > > the conclusions: The US is desperately behind in broaband compared > > to the rest the world. As for existing US broadband.We are paying > > way too > much for way > > too little compared to the rest of the world. > > US monopolies are have bloated the price of broadband and slowed > > investment. Lack of Federal and State policy/programs/tax > > breaks/incentives are mostly to blame. > > As we learned during the electrification of the rural US free > > enterprise is not the best system for bringing real low > cost broadband > > to everyone. If your municipality really wants to be on the > broadband > > grid and your expecting help from private telcos... your screwed. > > Municipal broadband or the threat of municipal broadband has been > > shown to encourage private sector investment. Most places including > > NYC should be shopping around for a municipal broadband solution if > > they expect their businesses to compete on a global level. > > The US communication infrastructure is stagnating and the > fixes will > > come from a combination public policy *AND* private enterprise. > > > > *Let There Be Wi-Fi* > > Broadband is the electricity of the 21st century-a
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Robert, Recent U.S inflation rates: 2004 2.68% 2003 2.27% 2002 1.59% 2001 2.83% 2000 3.38% Final data is not in yet for 2005 but it looks like it will run a little over 3% I haven't really felt inflation as an issue since Jimmy Carter was President and it sometimes hit close to 20% Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Schainbaum, Robert > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:37 PM > To: Billy Bob > Cc: 'nycwireless'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > There does seem to be a lot of inflation. As long as we're > going way off > topic, I'd like to see the Fed continue tightening for at > least another > year. Way too much inflation. > > Billy Bob wrote: > > >No... I'm not kidding. If you really believe that, then you live in > >LaLa land. > > > >Not only does our economy suck but so does our current state of our > >country as a whole. > > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Jim Henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:58 AM > >To: 'Billy Bob'; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > >Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > >You're kidding, right? ;-) > > > > > > > >>-Original Message- > >>From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:08 PM > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > >>Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > >> > >> > >>"...we have the strongest economy in the world"... > >> > >>Where do you live?? > >> > >>Certainly not here. > >> > >>Bruce > >> > >>-Original Message- > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim > >>Henry > >>Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:20 PM > >>To: 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > >>Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > >> > >>OK, guess I should have read the article first:-). No > thanks to govt. > >>subsidized broadband. We already have too much of a > socialist load on > >>our economy. The fact that we have less socialism than most other > >>countries is probably the main reason that we have the strongest > >>economy in the world, > >>the envy of other nations. Just my two cents. > >> > >> > >> > >>>-Original Message- > >>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >>> > >>> > >>Behalf Of Dustin > >> > >> > >>>Goodwin > >>>Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:40 AM > >>>To: nycwireless > >>>Subject: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > >>> > >>> > >>>If you think you have a well developed theory on the why or > >>> > >>> > >>why not of > >> > >> > >>>the municipal broadband debate you must read this article. Some of > >>>the conclusions: The US is desperately behind in broaband > compared to > >>>the rest the world. As for existing US broadband.We are paying way > >>>too > >>> > >>> > >>much for way > >> > >> > >>>too little compared to the rest of the world. > >>>US monopolies are have bloated the price of broadband and slowed > >>>investment. Lack of Federal and State policy/programs/tax > >>>breaks/incentives are mostly to blame. > >>>As we learned during the electrification of the rural US free > >>>enterprise is not the best system for bringing real low > >>> > >>> > >>cost broadband > >> > >> > >>>to everyone. If your municipality really wants to be on the > >>> > >>> > >>broadband > >> > >> > >>>grid and your expecting help from private telcos... your screwed. > >>>Municipal broadband or the threat of municipal broadband has been > >>>shown to encourage private sector investment. Most places > including > >>>NYC should be shopping around for a municipal broadband > solution if > >>>they expect their businesses to compete on a global level. > >>>The US communication infrastructure is stagnating and the > >>> > >>> > >>fixes will > >> > >> > >>>come from a combination public policy *AND* private enterprise. > >>> > >>>*Let There Be Wi-Fi* > >>>Broadband is the electricity of the 21st century-and much > of America > >>>is being left in the dark. > >>>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0601.podesta.html > >>>-- > >>>NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > >>>Un/Subscribe: > >>>http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > >>>Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>-- > >>>No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > >>>Date: 1/5/2006 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>-- > >>NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > >>Un/Subscribe: > >>http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > >>Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > >>Checked by AVG
RE: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband
No. I don't think it was neccesary and I don't see the connection to war depbts (whose?) Everyone knows Hussein had them but he obvously hid or got rid of most of them. The war occurred because he violated terms of the cease fire of 1991. Among the violations were daily firing on of U.S. and British planes patrolling the no fly zones over Iraq. Please email me directly if you'd like to discuss further. It's just not fair to the members of this list to keep arguing these leftist and socialist issues on a wireless list. Thanks. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Billy Bob > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:37 PM > To: 'vic'; 'Cienfuegos'; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband > > > I'll bet you're still looking for WMD's to justify "war debts" > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of vic > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:32 PM > To: Cienfuegos; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband > > Biggest debtor yes but not debt by proportion to GDP. Our > debt is small when compared to our GDP. War debts let us have > comparative safety on the streets to trade and partially keep > up the value of the USD. > > -=vic > --- > - Original Message - > From: "Cienfuegos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:35 PM > Subject: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband > > > > Lets try to keep our conversations down to earth please. > > > > Those who are terrified about govt. subsidized broadband, > rather than > > repeating the erroneous and semi-religious mantra of the > wonders of a > > capitalist economy a little education on the subject would > go a long > > way. The biggest debtor nation in the world is the USA, > and where is > > the outcry for the 40% of the gnp that goes to fund the > pentagon and > > other war related depts? > > > > Lets keep it on the tech tip shall we, that is why signed > on for this > > mailing list. > > > > Aias > > > > > -- > -- > > > > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Oh and I guess I should add that while violent crime continues to decline in the U.S., it steadily increases in Europe, Australia, and the U.K. where they now have HIGHER violent crime rates than in the U.S., something most Europeans often don't know. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Billy Bob > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:35 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > No... I'm not kidding. If you really believe that, then you > live in LaLa land. > > Not only does our economy suck but so does our current state > of our country as a whole. > > > -Original Message- > From: Jim Henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:58 AM > To: 'Billy Bob'; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > You're kidding, right? ;-) > > > -Original Message- > > From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:08 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > "...we have the strongest economy in the world"... > > > > Where do you live?? > > > > Certainly not here. > > > > Bruce > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim > > Henry > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:20 PM > > To: 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > OK, guess I should have read the article first:-). No > thanks to govt. > > subsidized broadband. We already have too much of a > socialist load on > > our economy. The fact that we have less socialism than most other > > countries is probably the main reason that we have the strongest > > economy in the world, > > the envy of other nations. Just my two cents. > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of Dustin > > > Goodwin > > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:40 AM > > > To: nycwireless > > > Subject: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > > > > If you think you have a well developed theory on the why or > > why not of > > > the municipal broadband debate you must read this > article. Some of > > > the conclusions: The US is desperately behind in broaband > compared > > > to the rest the world. As for existing US broadband.We are paying > > > way too > > much for way > > > too little compared to the rest of the world. > > > US monopolies are have bloated the price of broadband and slowed > > > investment. Lack of Federal and State policy/programs/tax > > > breaks/incentives are mostly to blame. > > > As we learned during the electrification of the rural US free > > > enterprise is not the best system for bringing real low > > cost broadband > > > to everyone. If your municipality really wants to be on the > > broadband > > > grid and your expecting help from private telcos... your screwed. > > > Municipal broadband or the threat of municipal broadband has been > > > shown to encourage private sector investment. Most places > including > > > NYC should be shopping around for a municipal broadband > solution if > > > they expect their businesses to compete on a global level. > > > The US communication infrastructure is stagnating and the > > fixes will > > > come from a combination public policy *AND* private enterprise. > > > > > > *Let There Be Wi-Fi* > > > Broadband is the electricity of the 21st century-and much > of America > > > is being left in the dark. > > > http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0601.podesta.html > > > -- > > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > > Un/Subscribe: > > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > > > Date: 1/5/2006 > > > > > > > > > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > > Date: 1/5/2006 > > > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - R
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Billy Bob, Let's see, GDP keeps on clicking at 3-4 % growth pretty much every year... The same was true in 2005. Inflation practically non-existent. Unemployment about as low as it's been ever in our history, Home ownership at an all time high. State of the country is such that those who the U.S classifies as in poverty often own televisions, phones, cars, and get food every day! Compare that to some other countries. We've removed one of the most evil dictators in history from power and in only 3 years that country, which has never known a democratic tradition, has easily made more progress than our own country in its first dozen years. We've done that, all the while suffering lower casualty rates than any war we've ever had to fight. We've influenced Libya to renounce its WMD program. We had a lot to do with freeing Lebanon from Syria's grip. Very likley that Assad in Syria will fall this year After being attacked in 2001, our country's defense and security forces have prevented all attempts since. I am not naïve enough to believe that al Queda hasn't tried. Simultaneously we have set up a kill zone in Iraq where every every month hundreds of terrorists from all over the world continue to funnel in, while we continue to capture and kill them. While our economy just keeps on humming, the economies of western Europe continue to sputter. So how exactly do you MEASURE a good economy?? Probably the greatest problem facing Americans today is that we are getting FAT?? Jim > -Original Message- > From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:35 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > No... I'm not kidding. If you really believe that, then you > live in LaLa land. > > Not only does our economy suck but so does our current state > of our country as a whole. > > > -Original Message- > From: Jim Henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:58 AM > To: 'Billy Bob'; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > You're kidding, right? ;-) > > > -Original Message- > > From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:08 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > "...we have the strongest economy in the world"... > > > > Where do you live?? > > > > Certainly not here. > > > > Bruce > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim > > Henry > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:20 PM > > To: 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > OK, guess I should have read the article first:-). No > thanks to govt. > > subsidized broadband. We already have too much of a > socialist load on > > our economy. The fact that we have less socialism than most other > > countries is probably the main reason that we have the strongest > > economy in the world, > > the envy of other nations. Just my two cents. > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of Dustin > > > Goodwin > > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:40 AM > > > To: nycwireless > > > Subject: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > > > > If you think you have a well developed theory on the why or > > why not of > > > the municipal broadband debate you must read this > article. Some of > > > the conclusions: The US is desperately behind in broaband > compared > > > to the rest the world. As for existing US broadband.We are paying > > > way too > > much for way > > > too little compared to the rest of the world. > > > US monopolies are have bloated the price of broadband and slowed > > > investment. Lack of Federal and State policy/programs/tax > > > breaks/incentives are mostly to blame. > > > As we learned during the electrification of the rural US free > > > enterprise is not the best system for bringing real low > > cost broadband > > > to everyone. If your municipality really wants to be on the > > broadband > > > grid and your expecting help from private telcos... your screwed. > > > Municipal broadband or the threat of municipal broadband has been > > > shown to encourage private sector investment. Most places > including > > > NYC should be shopping around for a municipal broadband > solution if > > > they expect their businesses to compete on a global level. > > > The US communication infrastructure is stagnating and the > > fixes will > > > come from a combination public policy *AND* private enterprise. > > > > > > *Let There Be Wi-Fi* > > > Broadband is the electricity of the 21st century-and much > of America > > > is being left in the dark. > > > http://www.was
RE: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband
Yes, in absolute terms our debt is large because our economy is so large. That's a GOOD thing! > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of vic > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:32 PM > To: Cienfuegos; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband > > > Biggest debtor yes but not debt by proportion to GDP. Our > debt is small when > compared to our GDP. > War debts let us have comparative safety on the streets to trade and > partially keep up the value of the USD. > > -=vic > --- > - Original Message - > From: "Cienfuegos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:35 PM > Subject: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband > > > > Lets try to keep our conversations down to earth please. > > > > Those who are terrified about govt. subsidized broadband, > rather than > > repeating the erroneous and semi-religious mantra of the > wonders of a > > capitalist economy a little education on the subject would > go a long > > way. The biggest debtor nation in the world is the USA, > and where is > > the outcry for the 40% of the gnp that goes to fund the > pentagon and > > other war related depts? > > > > Lets keep it on the tech tip shall we, that is why signed > on for this > > mailing list. > > > > Aias > > > > > -- > -- > > > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband
We already found WMD. We found a mobile weapons laboratory almost right away. There were no chems in it but is was there. We know he had WMD because WE the US GAVE WMD to Iraq to fight Iran. Please I thirst for intelligent convo.. Prior to invasion Iraq's military FIRED on our US planes almost 50 TIMES. Last time I checked when one nation's army fires on another nation's Air Force that in itself is an act of war. Get the facts man Cio baby, -=vic --- VICTOR SCELBA - Original Message - From: "Billy Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'vic'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Cienfuegos'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:36 PM Subject: RE: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband I'll bet you're still looking for WMD's to justify "war debts" -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of vic Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:32 PM To: Cienfuegos; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net Subject: Re: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband Biggest debtor yes but not debt by proportion to GDP. Our debt is small when compared to our GDP. War debts let us have comparative safety on the streets to trade and partially keep up the value of the USD. -=vic --- - Original Message - From: "Cienfuegos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:35 PM Subject: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband Lets try to keep our conversations down to earth please. Those who are terrified about govt. subsidized broadband, rather than repeating the erroneous and semi-religious mantra of the wonders of a capitalist economy a little education on the subject would go a long way. The biggest debtor nation in the world is the USA, and where is the outcry for the 40% of the gnp that goes to fund the pentagon and other war related depts? Lets keep it on the tech tip shall we, that is why signed on for this mailing list. Aias -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
We have a trillion dollar economy and interest rates are at record lows. What are you talking about. I don't think you have ever taken a business class or watched news other then the MTV news. -=vic --- - Original Message - From: "Billy Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Dustin Goodwin'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'nycwireless'" Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:35 PM Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! No... I'm not kidding. If you really believe that, then you live in LaLa land. Not only does our economy suck but so does our current state of our country as a whole. -Original Message- From: Jim Henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:58 AM To: 'Billy Bob'; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! You're kidding, right? ;-) -Original Message- From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! "...we have the strongest economy in the world"... Where do you live?? Certainly not here. Bruce -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Henry Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:20 PM To: 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! OK, guess I should have read the article first:-). No thanks to govt. subsidized broadband. We already have too much of a socialist load on our economy. The fact that we have less socialism than most other countries is probably the main reason that we have the strongest economy in the world, the envy of other nations. Just my two cents. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dustin > Goodwin > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:40 AM > To: nycwireless > Subject: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > If you think you have a well developed theory on the why or why not of > the municipal broadband debate you must read this article. > Some of the conclusions: > The US is desperately behind in broaband compared to the rest the > world. As for existing US broadband.We are paying way too much for way > too little compared to the rest of the world. > US monopolies are have bloated the price of broadband and slowed > investment. Lack of Federal and State policy/programs/tax > breaks/incentives are mostly to blame. > As we learned during the electrification of the rural US free > enterprise is not the best system for bringing real low cost broadband > to everyone. If your municipality really wants to be on the broadband > grid and your expecting help from private telcos... your screwed. > Municipal broadband or the threat of municipal broadband has been > shown to encourage private sector investment. > Most places including NYC should be shopping around for a municipal > broadband solution if they expect their businesses to compete on a > global level. > The US communication infrastructure is stagnating and the fixes will > come from a combination public policy *AND* private enterprise. > > *Let There Be Wi-Fi* > Broadband is the electricity of the 21st century-and much of America > is being left in the dark. > http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0601.podesta.html > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release Date: 1/5/2006 -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
There does seem to be a lot of inflation. As long as we're going way off topic, I'd like to see the Fed continue tightening for at least another year. Way too much inflation. Billy Bob wrote: No... I'm not kidding. If you really believe that, then you live in LaLa land. Not only does our economy suck but so does our current state of our country as a whole. -Original Message- From: Jim Henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:58 AM To: 'Billy Bob'; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! You're kidding, right? ;-) -Original Message- From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! "...we have the strongest economy in the world"... Where do you live?? Certainly not here. Bruce -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Henry Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:20 PM To: 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! OK, guess I should have read the article first:-). No thanks to govt. subsidized broadband. We already have too much of a socialist load on our economy. The fact that we have less socialism than most other countries is probably the main reason that we have the strongest economy in the world, the envy of other nations. Just my two cents. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dustin Goodwin Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:40 AM To: nycwireless Subject: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! If you think you have a well developed theory on the why or why not of the municipal broadband debate you must read this article. Some of the conclusions: The US is desperately behind in broaband compared to the rest the world. As for existing US broadband.We are paying way too much for way too little compared to the rest of the world. US monopolies are have bloated the price of broadband and slowed investment. Lack of Federal and State policy/programs/tax breaks/incentives are mostly to blame. As we learned during the electrification of the rural US free enterprise is not the best system for bringing real low cost broadband to everyone. If your municipality really wants to be on the broadband grid and your expecting help from private telcos... your screwed. Municipal broadband or the threat of municipal broadband has been shown to encourage private sector investment. Most places including NYC should be shopping around for a municipal broadband solution if they expect their businesses to compete on a global level. The US communication infrastructure is stagnating and the fixes will come from a combination public policy *AND* private enterprise. *Let There Be Wi-Fi* Broadband is the electricity of the 21st century-and much of America is being left in the dark. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0601.podesta.html -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release Date: 1/5/2006 -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release Date: 1/5/2006 -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband
I'll bet you're still looking for WMD's to justify "war debts" -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of vic Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:32 PM To: Cienfuegos; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net Subject: Re: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband Biggest debtor yes but not debt by proportion to GDP. Our debt is small when compared to our GDP. War debts let us have comparative safety on the streets to trade and partially keep up the value of the USD. -=vic --- - Original Message - From: "Cienfuegos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:35 PM Subject: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband > Lets try to keep our conversations down to earth please. > > Those who are terrified about govt. subsidized broadband, rather than > repeating the erroneous and semi-religious mantra of the wonders of a > capitalist economy a little education on the subject would go a long > way. The biggest debtor nation in the world is the USA, and where is > the outcry for the 40% of the gnp that goes to fund the pentagon and > other war related depts? > > Lets keep it on the tech tip shall we, that is why signed on for this > mailing list. > > Aias > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
No... I'm not kidding. If you really believe that, then you live in LaLa land. Not only does our economy suck but so does our current state of our country as a whole. -Original Message- From: Jim Henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:58 AM To: 'Billy Bob'; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! You're kidding, right? ;-) > -Original Message- > From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:08 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > "...we have the strongest economy in the world"... > > Where do you live?? > > Certainly not here. > > Bruce > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim > Henry > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:20 PM > To: 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > OK, guess I should have read the article first:-). No thanks to govt. > subsidized broadband. We already have too much of a socialist load on > our economy. The fact that we have less socialism than most other > countries is probably the main reason that we have the strongest > economy in the world, > the envy of other nations. Just my two cents. > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Dustin > > Goodwin > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:40 AM > > To: nycwireless > > Subject: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > If you think you have a well developed theory on the why or > why not of > > the municipal broadband debate you must read this article. > > Some of the conclusions: > > The US is desperately behind in broaband compared to the rest the > > world. As for existing US broadband.We are paying way too > much for way > > too little compared to the rest of the world. > > US monopolies are have bloated the price of broadband and slowed > > investment. Lack of Federal and State policy/programs/tax > > breaks/incentives are mostly to blame. > > As we learned during the electrification of the rural US free > > enterprise is not the best system for bringing real low > cost broadband > > to everyone. If your municipality really wants to be on the > broadband > > grid and your expecting help from private telcos... your screwed. > > Municipal broadband or the threat of municipal broadband has been > > shown to encourage private sector investment. > > Most places including NYC should be shopping around for a municipal > > broadband solution if they expect their businesses to compete on a > > global level. > > The US communication infrastructure is stagnating and the > fixes will > > come from a combination public policy *AND* private enterprise. > > > > *Let There Be Wi-Fi* > > Broadband is the electricity of the 21st century-and much of America > > is being left in the dark. > > http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0601.podesta.html > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > > Date: 1/5/2006 > > > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband
Biggest debtor yes but not debt by proportion to GDP. Our debt is small when compared to our GDP. War debts let us have comparative safety on the streets to trade and partially keep up the value of the USD. -=vic --- - Original Message - From: "Cienfuegos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:35 PM Subject: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband Lets try to keep our conversations down to earth please. Those who are terrified about govt. subsidized broadband, rather than repeating the erroneous and semi-religious mantra of the wonders of a capitalist economy a little education on the subject would go a long way. The biggest debtor nation in the world is the USA, and where is the outcry for the 40% of the gnp that goes to fund the pentagon and other war related depts? Lets keep it on the tech tip shall we, that is why signed on for this mailing list. Aias -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband
Ah, if only I were as well informed as you! Thanks for the guidance. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Cienfuegos > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:35 PM > To: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: [nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband > > > Lets try to keep our conversations down to earth please. > > Those who are terrified about govt. subsidized broadband, > rather than repeating the erroneous and semi-religious mantra > of the wonders of a capitalist economy a little education on > the subject would go a long way. The biggest debtor nation > in the world is the USA, and where is the outcry for the 40% > of the gnp that goes to fund the pentagon and other war related depts? > > Lets keep it on the tech tip shall we, that is why signed on > for this mailing list. > > Aias > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Robert, It is not a monopoly because in Texas, Verizon will not be the only franchisee. Time Warner has also applied. I imagine others may do the same. In my town, the municipaliity does not limit the number of MSOs to two. However, to get a franchise the MSO must agree to serve the entire town, not just the higher income and densely populated areas that are most profitable to serve. So far only two company's have been willing to make that financial commitment. When they do, they've got every right to try to earn as much profit as possible on that considerable investment. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Schainbaum, Robert > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:21 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > How is the Texas franchise different other franchises? How is > it not in > its heart of hearts a monopoly? > > Re the situation in the place where you live, I don't know > how they've > worked it out, but even an agreement that allows you to select either > RCN or Comcast is still a duopoly and duopoly is considered just as > economically damaging as monopoly. > > DSL is an inferior solution as most people in this list will attest. > It's almost degrading to be driven to DSL. FTTH sizzles, but > it costs a > lot and it's only available on a limited basis. Oh, sorry, that's how > monopolies profit maximize: they restrict supply so that the market > clearing price is well above marginal cost. Some speculate > that Verizon > is only rolling out to the more affluent communities, i.e, > communities > that will pay and not cause account maintenance issues. Skimming the > cream. Going to where the market clearing price will involve > the least cost. > > It sounds that where your moving in a few months will reprise > the same > duopoly scenario that you have where you now live, although this time > the it will be Comcast and Service Electric in bed with each other. I > know that the Verizon offering sizzles, but it's a lot to pay just to > get close to what the South Koreans have. And I don't know whether at > the different price points that cable and Verizon FIOS are real > competitors. Then there are the other quasi-monopoly features of > Verizon's business practices. > > Your theory of the MSO is that the city strikes a devil's > bargain with > some private company and provides all sorts of goodies to entice the > private company to exercise monopoly control over its > business. In some > cases, there's really no choice but to have one company run > the cables, > or one company run the phone lines, or one company handle electric > transmission, etc. Again, I don't see why the city just doesn't grant > itself the franchise. And, again, I don't see that duopoly is a good > substitute for monopoly franchise, it's the same thing in practice. > > Jim Henry wrote: > > >Robert, > > Govt. video franchises are not always monopolies. That depends on > >the municipality or govt. entity granting it. In the case of > the Texas > >state-wide franchise it is not. In the community where I live, two > >cable companies, RCN and Comcast, have franchises so I have > my choice. > >For broadband I have even more choices if I opt to go for > DSL or FTTH. > >Where I am moving in about 6 months, about 40 miles from > here, again, I > >will have my choice of Comcast,Service Electric, or Verizon > for video, > >broadband and voice, plus numerous DSL resellers if I want > it. I know > >in the past in some communities municipalities would offer > monopolies > >because they could extort more out of the MSO but I do not > think that > >is legal anymore, at least not in PA. > > > >Jim > > > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Rob, It just might have worked out just fine if NYC did not decide to be a water provider. My water provider is a publicly traded corporation and we have very high quality water here. Also, every customer has a water meter! The more water we use, the more we pay. Now I don't know if this is still true but I remember hearing several times over past decades, when there were droughts in the Northeast U.S. was that there was always a problem getting New Yorkers to conserve water, for they did not have water meters so there was no way to enforce conservation. Again, not living in NYC I don't know if this is still true or was ever true for that matter, but if so it illustrates a real problem. It seems that if NYC did not have a profit motive they would not have wanted to make the investment in meters. A capitalistic enterprise is much more interested in protecting its assets so they provide meters and those who use (or waste) the most water pay the most money, and when a drought requires an actual reduction in water used, the violators can be identified. Or, look into how successful PGW, the Philadelphia Gas Works is. The city is now trying to pressure the state PUC to force a commercial utility to take it over. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Rob Kelley > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:59 PM > To: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > I agree the market is not going to solve this one. > > New York City has a water supply. City leaders made it a > priority to control this and built reservoirs. Having this > steady, reliable and affordable supply expanded the city's > growth rate and tax base. > > Now what about our broadband supply, especially compared to > South Korea? Not so good. > > Put another way, what if the city leaders didn't have the > foresight back then about ensuring steady, reliable, and > affordable supply? What > if instead Coca-Cola sold you your water? > > Broadband is a crucial part of a municipality's infrastructure. > > For the sake of its future New York City needs a clear > broadband policy NOW. > > Rob > > > --- "Schainbaum, Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Citywide or statewide franchise, makes no difference. Still a > > franchise and still a state-granted monopoly. What is the > problem with > > monopoly? > > Well, the classical analysis finds dead-weight costs. What's the > > problem > > with a state-granted monopoly? Well, there's at least two. > First, an > > ordinary monopoly might be disentrenched. That's at least the belief > > of > > some people in some economics depts. Second, competition > for grant of > > > > the monopoly through use of influence with the local government, > > whether that be a municipal or a state government, just > seems to lead > > to obviously sub-optimal outcomes. > > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > > >Look to the franchising issue to change, if not go away. > Due to the > > ILECs > > >entering the video market they are trying their very best NOT to > > have to > > >jump through all the hoops the cable company's were forced to. > > They've > > >already gotten the law changed in Texas to where a company > can apply > > for a > > >state wide franchise rather than have to apply for a franchise with > > each > > >municipality. Since municipal video franchises were just a way for > > the > > >munipalities to extort all kinds of services for free or > discount in > > return > > >for the franchise, this should be at least some improvement. I'm > > sure the > > >cable company's are not going to sit still and allow this to change > > for > > >Verizon, Quest, and SBC(AT&T) and not have a level playing field so > > they > > >will do their utmost to be included in these changes or get the law > > changed > > >back so that the ILECs must compete with the same rules. Jim > > > > > > > > > > > >>-Original Message- > > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > >>Of Schainbaum, Robert > > >>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:13 PM > > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > > >>Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > >> > > >> > > >>Subsidy or no subsidy, we only have to consider the far > > >>superior quality > > >>of South Korean broadband to realize that the entire notion > > >>of providing > > >>a market solution to satisfy a market need has absolutely > > >>broken down in > > >>the case of our country. It has always seemed to me that the > > >>underylying > > >>theme theme in the capitalistic creed is a lack of orthodoxy. > > >>It seems a > > >>failure of the creed to ignore the crucial fact that private > > >>solutions > > >>to telecommunications problems in the US or through the > > >>private economy > > >>usually (if not always) involve the grant of a local >
[nycwireless] govt. subsidy and broadband
Lets try to keep our conversations down to earth please. Those who are terrified about govt. subsidized broadband, rather than repeating the erroneous and semi-religious mantra of the wonders of a capitalist economy a little education on the subject would go a long way. The biggest debtor nation in the world is the USA, and where is the outcry for the 40% of the gnp that goes to fund the pentagon and other war related depts? Lets keep it on the tech tip shall we, that is why signed on for this mailing list. Aias -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
How is the Texas franchise different other franchises? How is it not in its heart of hearts a monopoly? Re the situation in the place where you live, I don't know how they've worked it out, but even an agreement that allows you to select either RCN or Comcast is still a duopoly and duopoly is considered just as economically damaging as monopoly. DSL is an inferior solution as most people in this list will attest. It's almost degrading to be driven to DSL. FTTH sizzles, but it costs a lot and it's only available on a limited basis. Oh, sorry, that's how monopolies profit maximize: they restrict supply so that the market clearing price is well above marginal cost. Some speculate that Verizon is only rolling out to the more affluent communities, i.e, communities that will pay and not cause account maintenance issues. Skimming the cream. Going to where the market clearing price will involve the least cost. It sounds that where your moving in a few months will reprise the same duopoly scenario that you have where you now live, although this time the it will be Comcast and Service Electric in bed with each other. I know that the Verizon offering sizzles, but it's a lot to pay just to get close to what the South Koreans have. And I don't know whether at the different price points that cable and Verizon FIOS are real competitors. Then there are the other quasi-monopoly features of Verizon's business practices. Your theory of the MSO is that the city strikes a devil's bargain with some private company and provides all sorts of goodies to entice the private company to exercise monopoly control over its business. In some cases, there's really no choice but to have one company run the cables, or one company run the phone lines, or one company handle electric transmission, etc. Again, I don't see why the city just doesn't grant itself the franchise. And, again, I don't see that duopoly is a good substitute for monopoly franchise, it's the same thing in practice. Jim Henry wrote: Robert, Govt. video franchises are not always monopolies. That depends on the municipality or govt. entity granting it. In the case of the Texas state-wide franchise it is not. In the community where I live, two cable companies, RCN and Comcast, have franchises so I have my choice. For broadband I have even more choices if I opt to go for DSL or FTTH. Where I am moving in about 6 months, about 40 miles from here, again, I will have my choice of Comcast,Service Electric, or Verizon for video, broadband and voice, plus numerous DSL resellers if I want it. I know in the past in some communities municipalities would offer monopolies because they could extort more out of the MSO but I do not think that is legal anymore, at least not in PA. Jim -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
I agree the market is not going to solve this one. New York City has a water supply. City leaders made it a priority to control this and built reservoirs. Having this steady, reliable and affordable supply expanded the city's growth rate and tax base. Now what about our broadband supply, especially compared to South Korea? Not so good. Put another way, what if the city leaders didn't have the foresight back then about ensuring steady, reliable, and affordable supply? What if instead Coca-Cola sold you your water? Broadband is a crucial part of a municipality's infrastructure. For the sake of its future New York City needs a clear broadband policy NOW. Rob --- "Schainbaum, Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Citywide or statewide franchise, makes no difference. Still a > franchise > and still a state-granted monopoly. What is the problem with > monopoly? > Well, the classical analysis finds dead-weight costs. What's the > problem > with a state-granted monopoly? Well, there's at least two. First, an > ordinary monopoly might be disentrenched. That's at least the belief > of > some people in some economics depts. Second, competition for grant of > > the monopoly through use of influence with the local government, > whether > that be a municipal or a state government, just seems to lead to > obviously sub-optimal outcomes. > > Jim Henry wrote: > > >Look to the franchising issue to change, if not go away. Due to the > ILECs > >entering the video market they are trying their very best NOT to > have to > >jump through all the hoops the cable company's were forced to. > They've > >already gotten the law changed in Texas to where a company can apply > for a > >state wide franchise rather than have to apply for a franchise with > each > >municipality. Since municipal video franchises were just a way for > the > >munipalities to extort all kinds of services for free or discount in > return > >for the franchise, this should be at least some improvement. I'm > sure the > >cable company's are not going to sit still and allow this to change > for > >Verizon, Quest, and SBC(AT&T) and not have a level playing field so > they > >will do their utmost to be included in these changes or get the law > changed > >back so that the ILECs must compete with the same rules. > >Jim > > > > > > > >>-Original Message- > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > >>Of Schainbaum, Robert > >>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:13 PM > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > >>Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > >> > >> > >>Subsidy or no subsidy, we only have to consider the far > >>superior quality > >>of South Korean broadband to realize that the entire notion > >>of providing > >>a market solution to satisfy a market need has absolutely > >>broken down in > >>the case of our country. It has always seemed to me that the > >>underylying > >>theme theme in the capitalistic creed is a lack of orthodoxy. > >>It seems a > >>failure of the creed to ignore the crucial fact that private > >>solutions > >>to telecommunications problems in the US or through the > >>private economy > >>usually (if not always) involve the grant of a local > >>franchise. I don't > >>see why the municipality can't grant itself the franchise. > >>I'm tired of > >>any reflex response that fails to take account of our > >>surpassing failure > >>in this crucial are of our business and social infrastructure. > >> > >>Jim Henry wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Lars, > >>> Perhaps there is no subsidy in your case. I may have > >>> > >>> > >>mis-understood. > >> > >> > >>>If the municipality involved did not fund the fiber build with tax > > >>>dollars, and is making a profit on the network, which is > >>> > >>> > >>necessary in > >> > >> > >>>order to support and maintain the fiber network, then there > >>> > >>> > >>is none. I > >> > >> > >>>do feel it would be much better, more efficient, and more > >>> > >>> > >>economical to > >> > >> > >>>have the network operated and maintained by a commercial > enterprise > >>>than a government entity. As to the cost of your Internet > >>> > >>> > >>connection, > >> > >> > >>>it sounds like a good deal to me and I did not want to imply > >>> > >>> > >>otherwise. > >> > >> > >>>Jim > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Lars Aronsson > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:33 PM > To: 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > > > > >I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and > your > >fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as > > > > >
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Robert, Govt. video franchises are not always monopolies. That depends on the municipality or govt. entity granting it. In the case of the Texas state-wide franchise it is not. In the community where I live, two cable companies, RCN and Comcast, have franchises so I have my choice. For broadband I have even more choices if I opt to go for DSL or FTTH. Where I am moving in about 6 months, about 40 miles from here, again, I will have my choice of Comcast,Service Electric, or Verizon for video, broadband and voice, plus numerous DSL resellers if I want it. I know in the past in some communities municipalities would offer monopolies because they could extort more out of the MSO but I do not think that is legal anymore, at least not in PA. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Schainbaum, Robert > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:42 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Citywide or statewide franchise, makes no difference. Still a > franchise > and still a state-granted monopoly. What is the problem with > monopoly? > Well, the classical analysis finds dead-weight costs. What's > the problem > with a state-granted monopoly? Well, there's at least two. First, an > ordinary monopoly might be disentrenched. That's at least the > belief of > some people in some economics depts. Second, competition for grant of > the monopoly through use of influence with the local > government, whether > that be a municipal or a state government, just seems to lead to > obviously sub-optimal outcomes. > > Jim Henry wrote: > > >Look to the franchising issue to change, if not go away. Due to the > >ILECs entering the video market they are trying their very > best NOT to > >have to jump through all the hoops the cable company's were > forced to. > >They've already gotten the law changed in Texas to where a > company can > >apply for a state wide franchise rather than have to apply for a > >franchise with each municipality. Since municipal video > franchises were > >just a way for the munipalities to extort all kinds of services for > >free or discount in return for the franchise, this should be > at least > >some improvement. I'm sure the cable company's are not going to sit > >still and allow this to change for Verizon, Quest, and SBC(AT&T) and > >not have a level playing field so they will do their utmost to be > >included in these changes or get the law changed back so > that the ILECs > >must compete with the same rules. Jim > > > > > > > >>-Original Message- > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > >>Of Schainbaum, Robert > >>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:13 PM > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > >>Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > >> > >> > >>Subsidy or no subsidy, we only have to consider the far > >>superior quality > >>of South Korean broadband to realize that the entire notion > >>of providing > >>a market solution to satisfy a market need has absolutely > >>broken down in > >>the case of our country. It has always seemed to me that the > >>underylying > >>theme theme in the capitalistic creed is a lack of orthodoxy. > >>It seems a > >>failure of the creed to ignore the crucial fact that private > >>solutions > >>to telecommunications problems in the US or through the > >>private economy > >>usually (if not always) involve the grant of a local > >>franchise. I don't > >>see why the municipality can't grant itself the franchise. > >>I'm tired of > >>any reflex response that fails to take account of our > >>surpassing failure > >>in this crucial are of our business and social infrastructure. > >> > >>Jim Henry wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Lars, > >>> Perhaps there is no subsidy in your case. I may have > >>> > >>> > >>mis-understood. > >> > >> > >>>If the municipality involved did not fund the fiber build with tax > >>>dollars, and is making a profit on the network, which is > >>> > >>> > >>necessary in > >> > >> > >>>order to support and maintain the fiber network, then there > >>> > >>> > >>is none. I > >> > >> > >>>do feel it would be much better, more efficient, and more > >>> > >>> > >>economical to > >> > >> > >>>have the network operated and maintained by a commercial enterprise > >>>than a government entity. As to the cost of your Internet > >>> > >>> > >>connection, > >> > >> > >>>it sounds like a good deal to me and I did not want to imply > >>> > >>> > >>otherwise. > >> > >> > >>>Jim > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Lars Aronsson > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:33 PM > To: 'nycwireless' > Subject:
Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Citywide or statewide franchise, makes no difference. Still a franchise and still a state-granted monopoly. What is the problem with monopoly? Well, the classical analysis finds dead-weight costs. What's the problem with a state-granted monopoly? Well, there's at least two. First, an ordinary monopoly might be disentrenched. That's at least the belief of some people in some economics depts. Second, competition for grant of the monopoly through use of influence with the local government, whether that be a municipal or a state government, just seems to lead to obviously sub-optimal outcomes. Jim Henry wrote: Look to the franchising issue to change, if not go away. Due to the ILECs entering the video market they are trying their very best NOT to have to jump through all the hoops the cable company's were forced to. They've already gotten the law changed in Texas to where a company can apply for a state wide franchise rather than have to apply for a franchise with each municipality. Since municipal video franchises were just a way for the munipalities to extort all kinds of services for free or discount in return for the franchise, this should be at least some improvement. I'm sure the cable company's are not going to sit still and allow this to change for Verizon, Quest, and SBC(AT&T) and not have a level playing field so they will do their utmost to be included in these changes or get the law changed back so that the ILECs must compete with the same rules. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schainbaum, Robert Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! Subsidy or no subsidy, we only have to consider the far superior quality of South Korean broadband to realize that the entire notion of providing a market solution to satisfy a market need has absolutely broken down in the case of our country. It has always seemed to me that the underylying theme theme in the capitalistic creed is a lack of orthodoxy. It seems a failure of the creed to ignore the crucial fact that private solutions to telecommunications problems in the US or through the private economy usually (if not always) involve the grant of a local franchise. I don't see why the municipality can't grant itself the franchise. I'm tired of any reflex response that fails to take account of our surpassing failure in this crucial are of our business and social infrastructure. Jim Henry wrote: Lars, Perhaps there is no subsidy in your case. I may have mis-understood. If the municipality involved did not fund the fiber build with tax dollars, and is making a profit on the network, which is necessary in order to support and maintain the fiber network, then there is none. I do feel it would be much better, more efficient, and more economical to have the network operated and maintained by a commercial enterprise than a government entity. As to the cost of your Internet connection, it sounds like a good deal to me and I did not want to imply otherwise. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lars Aronsson Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:33 PM To: 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! Jim Henry wrote: I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as part of that $40/month. Does every ISP in Manhattan dig the streets to lay down their own cables? How does that work in this era of telecom deregulation? Since city streets (and street lights) are a municipal monopoly, it makes sense to have one municipal ditch with one municipal fiber infrastructre, where telcos and ISPs can rent fibers or bandwidth at or near cost price. My ISP is a private corporation that pays for using the municipal fiber, and their money comes from my $40/month. I don't see where any subsidy would come in. You're probably right that I pay a higher income tax, and I'm not defending that. I'm just curious how you could help me to find a more efficient broadband solution than the one I already have. Where and how do you live and what do you pay for broadband? -- Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release Date: 1/5/2006 -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://li
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Look to the franchising issue to change, if not go away. Due to the ILECs entering the video market they are trying their very best NOT to have to jump through all the hoops the cable company's were forced to. They've already gotten the law changed in Texas to where a company can apply for a state wide franchise rather than have to apply for a franchise with each municipality. Since municipal video franchises were just a way for the munipalities to extort all kinds of services for free or discount in return for the franchise, this should be at least some improvement. I'm sure the cable company's are not going to sit still and allow this to change for Verizon, Quest, and SBC(AT&T) and not have a level playing field so they will do their utmost to be included in these changes or get the law changed back so that the ILECs must compete with the same rules. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Schainbaum, Robert > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:13 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nycwireless@lists.nycwireless.net > Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Subsidy or no subsidy, we only have to consider the far > superior quality > of South Korean broadband to realize that the entire notion > of providing > a market solution to satisfy a market need has absolutely > broken down in > the case of our country. It has always seemed to me that the > underylying > theme theme in the capitalistic creed is a lack of orthodoxy. > It seems a > failure of the creed to ignore the crucial fact that private > solutions > to telecommunications problems in the US or through the > private economy > usually (if not always) involve the grant of a local > franchise. I don't > see why the municipality can't grant itself the franchise. > I'm tired of > any reflex response that fails to take account of our > surpassing failure > in this crucial are of our business and social infrastructure. > > Jim Henry wrote: > > >Lars, > > Perhaps there is no subsidy in your case. I may have > mis-understood. > >If the municipality involved did not fund the fiber build with tax > >dollars, and is making a profit on the network, which is > necessary in > >order to support and maintain the fiber network, then there > is none. I > >do feel it would be much better, more efficient, and more > economical to > >have the network operated and maintained by a commercial enterprise > >than a government entity. As to the cost of your Internet > connection, > >it sounds like a good deal to me and I did not want to imply > otherwise. > >Jim > > > > > > > >>-Original Message- > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > >>Of Lars Aronsson > >>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:33 PM > >>To: 'nycwireless' > >>Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > >> > >> > >>Jim Henry wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and your > >>>fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as > part of that > >>>$40/month. > >>> > >>> > >>Does every ISP in Manhattan dig the streets to lay down their own > >>cables? How does that work in this era of telecom deregulation? > >>Since city streets (and street lights) are a municipal monopoly, > >>it makes sense to have one municipal ditch with one municipal > >>fiber infrastructre, where telcos and ISPs can rent fibers or > >>bandwidth at or near cost price. > >> > >>My ISP is a private corporation that pays for using the municipal > >>fiber, and their money comes from my $40/month. I don't see where > >>any subsidy would come in. > >> > >>You're probably right that I pay a higher income tax, and I'm not > >>defending that. I'm just curious how you could help me to find a > >>more efficient broadband solution than the one I already > >>have. Where and how do you live and what do you pay for broadband? > >> > >> > >>-- > >> Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > >> Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se > >>-- > >>NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > >>Un/Subscribe: > >>http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > >>Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > >>Date: 1/5/2006 > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >-- > >NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > >Un/Subscribe: > >http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > >Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG
Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Subsidy or no subsidy, we only have to consider the far superior quality of South Korean broadband to realize that the entire notion of providing a market solution to satisfy a market need has absolutely broken down in the case of our country. It has always seemed to me that the underylying theme theme in the capitalistic creed is a lack of orthodoxy. It seems a failure of the creed to ignore the crucial fact that private solutions to telecommunications problems in the US or through the private economy usually (if not always) involve the grant of a local franchise. I don't see why the municipality can't grant itself the franchise. I'm tired of any reflex response that fails to take account of our surpassing failure in this crucial are of our business and social infrastructure. Jim Henry wrote: Lars, Perhaps there is no subsidy in your case. I may have mis-understood. If the municipality involved did not fund the fiber build with tax dollars, and is making a profit on the network, which is necessary in order to support and maintain the fiber network, then there is none. I do feel it would be much better, more efficient, and more economical to have the network operated and maintained by a commercial enterprise than a government entity. As to the cost of your Internet connection, it sounds like a good deal to me and I did not want to imply otherwise. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lars Aronsson Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:33 PM To: 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! Jim Henry wrote: I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as part of that $40/month. Does every ISP in Manhattan dig the streets to lay down their own cables? How does that work in this era of telecom deregulation? Since city streets (and street lights) are a municipal monopoly, it makes sense to have one municipal ditch with one municipal fiber infrastructre, where telcos and ISPs can rent fibers or bandwidth at or near cost price. My ISP is a private corporation that pays for using the municipal fiber, and their money comes from my $40/month. I don't see where any subsidy would come in. You're probably right that I pay a higher income tax, and I'm not defending that. I'm just curious how you could help me to find a more efficient broadband solution than the one I already have. Where and how do you live and what do you pay for broadband? -- Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release Date: 1/5/2006 -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Lars, Perhaps there is no subsidy in your case. I may have mis-understood. If the municipality involved did not fund the fiber build with tax dollars, and is making a profit on the network, which is necessary in order to support and maintain the fiber network, then there is none. I do feel it would be much better, more efficient, and more economical to have the network operated and maintained by a commercial enterprise than a government entity. As to the cost of your Internet connection, it sounds like a good deal to me and I did not want to imply otherwise. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Lars Aronsson > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:33 PM > To: 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and > > your fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as > > part of that $40/month. > > Does every ISP in Manhattan dig the streets to lay down their own > cables? How does that work in this era of telecom deregulation? > Since city streets (and street lights) are a municipal monopoly, > it makes sense to have one municipal ditch with one municipal > fiber infrastructre, where telcos and ISPs can rent fibers or > bandwidth at or near cost price. > > My ISP is a private corporation that pays for using the municipal > fiber, and their money comes from my $40/month. I don't see where > any subsidy would come in. > > You're probably right that I pay a higher income tax, and I'm not > defending that. I'm just curious how you could help me to find a > more efficient broadband solution than the one I already > have. Where and how do you live and what do you pay for broadband? > > > -- > Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Rob, And as my tax dollars won't be funding what you do in NYC, as long as you don't snare any federal funds, I have absolutley no objection to it! I merely wanted to correct the misunderstanding about broadband being cheaper elsewhere than in the U.S. It's not. Don't forget, it's capitalism that made this nation the greatest in the world, and in fact it's capitalism that makes all these neat wireless gadgets that we love so, possible! I doubt that even our socialist European neighbors, or the Asians who produce most of the wireless gear, would make it at all if there were not big money in it. WRT my statement that taxation is theft, if I told you to give me several thousand dollars or I would come and get you, you would probably laugh it off, even if I promised to use the money for "a good purpose". However, once you heard that I had done just that to hundreds or thousands of people, that those people are now in prison because they would not give me their money, that they are going to STAY in prison, and that the highest legal authority in the land had confirmed that it's ok for me to do that, I bet you would give me some money the next time I asked. You may feel it's all ok, but if I were in your shoes I would feel I've been robbed. Yes, taxation is theft. When someone works hard to become a success, it's immoral to take their money by threat of force to give it to someone who didn't earn it. We've gotten way off track in the last hundred years and are using forced wealth redistribution to fill society's needs that have always been served by charity and church. Anyway we're getting off topic. I only wanted to correct the misunderstanding that broadband is cheaper elsewhere than in the U.S. and since then I've only responded to related points made by others. I really want to stay on topic if possible. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Rob Kelley > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:50 PM > To: 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Jim: > > Maybe in airpower's home of Lansdowne, PA, people think > "taxation is theft" (though I doubt it). > > Here in NYC, as in NYCwireless, people put up with some of > the highest income tax rates in the country. Why? Because > we believe in the city, the urban environment, and communal > services. Tax-ranting is really out of place. > > If you want low taxes, try Alaska. If we want to have > community access in NYC, we need to focus on the real value > it can provide as a communal service and figure out how to > make it happen. > > Rob > > > > > > > --- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Lars, > > I'm OK with street lights and quite a bit more, but > you've got to > > draw the line somewhere. I certainly don't want my tax > dollars paying > > for soeone > > else's water, electricity, gas, medicine, education, > healthcare, etc. > > As to > > the cost of your broadband connection, I'd be willing to > bet you are > > not > > counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that > > municipal fiber > > network as part of that $40/month. Beyond that, I'd also bet you > > pay a > > much larger percentage of your income in taxes than I, though mine > > are > > already far too high. Taxation is theft and thus immoral. > > > > Jim > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > > Of Lars Aronsson > > > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:46 AM > > > To: 'nycwireless' > > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > > > > > Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries where > > > > broadband is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it > > > > really cheaper or is it subsidized by the government? I > honestly > > > > don't know the answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also > > > > and more widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise. > > > > If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it. > > > > > > I heard that socialism has gone away now that "cialis" is caught > > > in the spam filters. Seriously, though, I have yet to see street > > > lights operated on a pay-per-view commercial basis. > Somebody paid > > > once-and-for-all to pave and light the streets, and it could be > > > tax money. Does that make it socialism? > > > > > > In Sweden I pay 320 SEK/mo ($40) for 10 Mbit/s. This is possible > > > because I live in a coop apartment building, where every > apartment > > > is wired by an ISP, and the in-house switched LAN is connected to > > > a municipal fiber in the basement. This ISP > (www.bredband.com) was > > > founded with venture capital during the dotcom boom and got a > > > contract with the largest national association of apartment coops > > > (www.hsb.se). Through this contract, a
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Ben, You make some good point. However in reference to Philly Muni Wireless, it's not built yet so let's wait and see before we pronounce it a success. All terms of the contract have not even been finalized. In Philly they have only now just realized that many of the folks that they want to bring low cost Internet to, don't have computers! So now they are talking of providing "free" computers to thousands of families. I'm not yet certain who will be buying those, Earthlink, the city of Philadelphia, the state, or the Feds, but one thing I am certain of is that they will not be free. At somepoint in the future they will discover that many of these folks don't even have an interest in learning how to use a computer, just as many people now have no interest in reading newspapers or using their public libraries. Internet for the masses is not the cure-all that many tout it to be. One other city that has a RFP out for a muni wireless network has a much better philosophy. They feel that pervasive wireless broadband throughout their city will be a great thing, and who can argue that? BUT, they have no intention of subsidizing the price of service. They want the network to generate the necessary funds to maintain it, upgrade it, etc. They accurately point out that already, anyone in their city already has Internet access at no charge (beyond the taxes they already pay) by visiting one of the dozens of public libraries they provide their citizens. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Ben N. Serebin > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:44 PM > To: nycwireless > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Hello All, > > Having read the article, this is not about higher taxes > guys... It's about competition. Free market competition, > which isn't occurring in the broadband market in the US. This > also isn't about fast internet for the 1%, like me who has > fiber in Westchester that is 5Mb/2Mb for $35/month. This is > going to be a bigger problem, much BIGGER. Such as if the > internet was developed and fostered in Asia/Europe. We need > to keep the USA competitive, hence the purpose of getting > fast broadband to all. The internet is going to grow the > economy through online business and education. > > Question for all you folks... how much $$$ was used for > the Philly Muni Wireless? A big fat $0 Read the article, > before you post about taxes & muni wireless. Also, here's > another good blurb from the article... > > http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0601.podesta.html > > Community Internet has the potential to revolutionize and > democratize communications in this country. And that may be > the reason why big cable and telephone companies and their > political allies have launched a sophisticated misinformation > campaign. These companies and their coin-operated think tanks > generally make three paradoxical arguments against municipal > broadband. First, they contend that municipalities have no > place in the "free market." Of course, the cable and > telephone giants don't mention that their own > monopolies-which control 98 percent of the broadband > market-have been cemented with extensive public subsidies, > tax breaks and incentives (as well as free rein to tear up > city streets). Verizon, for instance, didn't complain last > fall when Pennsylvania handed them subsidies for broadband > deployment worth nearly 10 times what Wireless Philadelphia > will cost. Neither did Comcast object when Philadelphia > approved a $30 million grant to build a skyscraper that will > house its headquarters. To the incumbent providers, "unfair > competition" means any competition at all. > > -Ben > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Larry, We're getting way off topic now. We could go on and on, but before someone rightfully objects, I just wanted to address the point that broadband is NOT cheaper elsewhere than it is in the U.S. BTW, little in this world is free. The healthcare of government employees certainly is not. Taking money from someone with an implied threat of force (if you do not pay your taxes the govt. will send men with guns to come get you and put you in prison) is robbery. It's theft. It's immoral. Point made. > -Original Message- > From: MAX Wireless [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 12:59 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lars Aronsson'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > Jim, > > I think you might have been drinking too much of the > right-wing Kool-aid. This country was formed for the "Common > Good" of the people. > > Our friends in Europe understand that principle, and while > their taxes are higher, they receive many more services than > we do for our tax money. I don't mind paying my share of the > tax load, but I don't like what the money is used for. We > subsidize government employees with free health care, so why > shouldn't the rest of the population be afforded the same > service. Our European friends don't spend near the money on > the military that we do and can use that money to provide for > a better quality of life for ALL their citizens rather than > blowing holes in the sand of some foreign country in support > of the American oil companies. > > Jim, think "Common Good". > > Larry > > > "Every gun that is made, every warship that is launched, > every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from > those who are hungry and are not fed, those that are cold and > are not clothed." Dwight D. Eisenhower > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Jim Henry > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:06 AM > To: 'Lars Aronsson'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > Lars, > I'm OK with street lights and quite a bit more, but > you've got to draw the line somewhere. I certainly don't want > my tax dollars paying for soeone else's water, electricity, > gas, medicine, education, healthcare, etc. As to the cost of > your broadband connection, I'd be willing to bet you are not > counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that > municipal fiber network as part of that $40/month. Beyond > that, I'd also bet you pay a much larger percentage of your > income in taxes than I, though mine are already far too high. > Taxation is theft and thus immoral. > > Jim > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > Of Lars Aronsson > > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:46 AM > > To: 'nycwireless' > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > > > Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries > where broadband > > > is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it really > cheaper or > > > is it subsidized by the government? I honestly don't know the > > > answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also and more > > > widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise. > > > If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it. > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
I know I do, and I object. I said that I do not WANT to. The great people who founded this country never envisioned nor intended that the govt. would be our mommy. > -Original Message- > From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 12:18 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lars Aronsson' > Cc: 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > "I certainly don't want my tax dollars paying for so[m]eone > else's water, electricity, gas, medicine, education, > healthcare, etc." > > Where do you live? If it's the US, you already do pay for > these products and services for others in all sorts of places. > > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Jim Henry > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:06 AM > To: 'Lars Aronsson'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > Lars, > I'm OK with street lights and quite a bit more, but > you've got to draw the line somewhere. I certainly don't want > my tax dollars paying for soeone else's water, electricity, > gas, medicine, education, healthcare, etc. As to the cost of > your broadband connection, I'd be willing to bet you are not > counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that > municipal fiber network as part of that $40/month. Beyond > that, I'd also bet you pay a much larger percentage of your > income in taxes than I, though mine are already far too high. > Taxation is theft and thus immoral. > > Jim > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lars > > Aronsson > > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:46 AM > > To: 'nycwireless' > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > > > Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries > where broadband > > > is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it really > cheaper or > > > is it subsidized by the government? I honestly don't know the > > > answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also and more > > > widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise. > > > If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it. > > > > I heard that socialism has gone away now that "cialis" is caught in > > the spam filters. Seriously, though, I have yet to see > street lights > > operated on a pay-per-view commercial basis. Somebody paid > > once-and-for-all to pave and light the streets, and it could be tax > > money. Does that make it socialism? > > > > In Sweden I pay 320 SEK/mo ($40) for 10 Mbit/s. This is possible > > because I live in a coop apartment building, where every > apartment is > > wired by an ISP, and the in-house switched LAN is connected to a > > municipal fiber in the basement. This ISP (www.bredband.com) was > > founded with venture capital during the dotcom boom and got > a contract > > with the largest national association of apartment coops > (www.hsb.se). > > Through this contract, apartment coops that are members have a very > > streamlined procedure for signing up to get their apartment > buildings > > wired. > > > > This spring, the ISP is introducing a reduced price 2 > Mbit/s offering > > (still over CAT-5 twisted pair ethernet, so I guess it is really 10 > > Mbit/s but bandwidth limited) and at the same time my line > is upgraded > > to 100 Mbit/s at unchanged price. > > > > As far as I know, there is no direct government subsidy, > but a lot of > > factors work together: > > > > * Compared to the U.S., more people here live in apartments. > >People living in private homes cannot get broadband as cheap, > >simply because wiring a dozen apartments in one building is a > >lot cheaper than wiring a dozen private homes. > > > > * Coops is a very common form of apartment ownership in Sweden > >since the 1930s, and the national associations work pretty > >well. The nationwide template contract made it easier for a > >lot of small coops to sign up, who don't have the technical > >insights to do their own negotiations. > > > > * The dotcom boom provided the venture capital for this > >broadband-only ISP. You could call this "subsidized by stupid > >investors". I guess the stock price has fallen, but at least > >this company is still around. > > > > * The old national telco is not involved at all in this solution. > > > > * The ISP rents dark fiber from the municipal utility between my > >building and the ISP's facility in this town. The municipal > >water, sewer, electricity, and heating utility is operated as a > >whole-owned corporation (www.tekniskaverken.se) and I don't > >know exactly how they have financed the build-out of the > >municipal fiber network. > > > > I guess most of these conditions could also apply to New York City, > > more than t
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Jim Henry wrote: > I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and > your fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as > part of that $40/month. Does every ISP in Manhattan dig the streets to lay down their own cables? How does that work in this era of telecom deregulation? Since city streets (and street lights) are a municipal monopoly, it makes sense to have one municipal ditch with one municipal fiber infrastructre, where telcos and ISPs can rent fibers or bandwidth at or near cost price. My ISP is a private corporation that pays for using the municipal fiber, and their money comes from my $40/month. I don't see where any subsidy would come in. You're probably right that I pay a higher income tax, and I'm not defending that. I'm just curious how you could help me to find a more efficient broadband solution than the one I already have. Where and how do you live and what do you pay for broadband? -- Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Jim: Maybe in airpower's home of Lansdowne, PA, people think "taxation is theft" (though I doubt it). Here in NYC, as in NYCwireless, people put up with some of the highest income tax rates in the country. Why? Because we believe in the city, the urban environment, and communal services. Tax-ranting is really out of place. If you want low taxes, try Alaska. If we want to have community access in NYC, we need to focus on the real value it can provide as a communal service and figure out how to make it happen. Rob --- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Lars, > I'm OK with street lights and quite a bit more, but you've got to > draw > the line somewhere. I certainly don't want my tax dollars paying for > soeone > else's water, electricity, gas, medicine, education, healthcare, etc. > As to > the cost of your broadband connection, I'd be willing to bet you are > not > counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that > municipal fiber > network as part of that $40/month. Beyond that, I'd also bet you > pay a > much larger percentage of your income in taxes than I, though mine > are > already far too high. Taxation is theft and thus immoral. > > Jim > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > Of Lars Aronsson > > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:46 AM > > To: 'nycwireless' > > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > > > Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries where > > > broadband is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it > > > really cheaper or is it subsidized by the government? I honestly > > > don't know the answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also > > > and more widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise. > > > If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it. > > > > I heard that socialism has gone away now that "cialis" is caught > > in the spam filters. Seriously, though, I have yet to see street > > lights operated on a pay-per-view commercial basis. Somebody paid > > once-and-for-all to pave and light the streets, and it could be > > tax money. Does that make it socialism? > > > > In Sweden I pay 320 SEK/mo ($40) for 10 Mbit/s. This is possible > > because I live in a coop apartment building, where every apartment > > is wired by an ISP, and the in-house switched LAN is connected to > > a municipal fiber in the basement. This ISP (www.bredband.com) was > > founded with venture capital during the dotcom boom and got a > > contract with the largest national association of apartment coops > > (www.hsb.se). Through this contract, apartment coops that are > > members have a very streamlined procedure for signing up to get > > their apartment buildings wired. > > > > This spring, the ISP is introducing a reduced price 2 Mbit/s > > offering (still over CAT-5 twisted pair ethernet, so I guess it is > > really 10 Mbit/s but bandwidth limited) and at the same time my > > line is upgraded to 100 Mbit/s at unchanged price. > > > > As far as I know, there is no direct government subsidy, but a lot > > of factors work together: > > > > * Compared to the U.S., more people here live in apartments. > >People living in private homes cannot get broadband as cheap, > >simply because wiring a dozen apartments in one building is a > >lot cheaper than wiring a dozen private homes. > > > > * Coops is a very common form of apartment ownership in Sweden > >since the 1930s, and the national associations work pretty > >well. The nationwide template contract made it easier for a > >lot of small coops to sign up, who don't have the technical > >insights to do their own negotiations. > > > > * The dotcom boom provided the venture capital for this > >broadband-only ISP. You could call this "subsidized by stupid > >investors". I guess the stock price has fallen, but at least > >this company is still around. > > > > * The old national telco is not involved at all in this solution. > > > > * The ISP rents dark fiber from the municipal utility between my > >building and the ISP's facility in this town. The municipal > >water, sewer, electricity, and heating utility is operated as a > >whole-owned corporation (www.tekniskaverken.se) and I don't > >know exactly how they have financed the build-out of the > >municipal fiber network. > > > > I guess most of these conditions could also apply to New York > > City, more than to rural or suburban America. > > > > > > -- > > Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incomin
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Hello All, Having read the article, this is not about higher taxes guys... It's about competition. Free market competition, which isn't occurring in the broadband market in the US. This also isn't about fast internet for the 1%, like me who has fiber in Westchester that is 5Mb/2Mb for $35/month. This is going to be a bigger problem, much BIGGER. Such as if the internet was developed and fostered in Asia/Europe. We need to keep the USA competitive, hence the purpose of getting fast broadband to all. The internet is going to grow the economy through online business and education. Question for all you folks... how much $$$ was used for the Philly Muni Wireless? A big fat $0 Read the article, before you post about taxes & muni wireless. Also, here's another good blurb from the article... http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0601.podesta.html Community Internet has the potential to revolutionize and democratize communications in this country. And that may be the reason why big cable and telephone companies and their political allies have launched a sophisticated misinformation campaign. These companies and their coin-operated think tanks generally make three paradoxical arguments against municipal broadband. First, they contend that municipalities have no place in the "free market." Of course, the cable and telephone giants don't mention that their own monopolies-which control 98 percent of the broadband market-have been cemented with extensive public subsidies, tax breaks and incentives (as well as free rein to tear up city streets). Verizon, for instance, didn't complain last fall when Pennsylvania handed them subsidies for broadband deployment worth nearly 10 times what Wireless Philadelphia will cost. Neither did Comcast object when Philadelphia approved a $30 million grant to build a skyscraper that will house its headquarters. To the incumbent providers, "unfair competition" means any competition at all. -Ben -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Jim, I think you might have been drinking too much of the right-wing Kool-aid. This country was formed for the "Common Good" of the people. Our friends in Europe understand that principle, and while their taxes are higher, they receive many more services than we do for our tax money. I don't mind paying my share of the tax load, but I don't like what the money is used for. We subsidize government employees with free health care, so why shouldn't the rest of the population be afforded the same service. Our European friends don't spend near the money on the military that we do and can use that money to provide for a better quality of life for ALL their citizens rather than blowing holes in the sand of some foreign country in support of the American oil companies. Jim, think "Common Good". Larry "Every gun that is made, every warship that is launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who are hungry and are not fed, those that are cold and are not clothed." Dwight D. Eisenhower -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Henry Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:06 AM To: 'Lars Aronsson'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! Lars, I'm OK with street lights and quite a bit more, but you've got to draw the line somewhere. I certainly don't want my tax dollars paying for soeone else's water, electricity, gas, medicine, education, healthcare, etc. As to the cost of your broadband connection, I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as part of that $40/month. Beyond that, I'd also bet you pay a much larger percentage of your income in taxes than I, though mine are already far too high. Taxation is theft and thus immoral. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Lars Aronsson > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:46 AM > To: 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries where > > broadband is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it > > really cheaper or is it subsidized by the government? I honestly > > don't know the answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also > > and more widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise. > > If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it. -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
"I certainly don't want my tax dollars paying for so[m]eone else's water, electricity, gas, medicine, education, healthcare, etc." Where do you live? If it's the US, you already do pay for these products and services for others in all sorts of places. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Henry Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:06 AM To: 'Lars Aronsson'; 'nycwireless' Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! Lars, I'm OK with street lights and quite a bit more, but you've got to draw the line somewhere. I certainly don't want my tax dollars paying for soeone else's water, electricity, gas, medicine, education, healthcare, etc. As to the cost of your broadband connection, I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as part of that $40/month. Beyond that, I'd also bet you pay a much larger percentage of your income in taxes than I, though mine are already far too high. Taxation is theft and thus immoral. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lars > Aronsson > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:46 AM > To: 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries where broadband > > is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it really cheaper or > > is it subsidized by the government? I honestly don't know the > > answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also and more > > widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise. > > If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it. > > I heard that socialism has gone away now that "cialis" is caught in > the spam filters. Seriously, though, I have yet to see street lights > operated on a pay-per-view commercial basis. Somebody paid > once-and-for-all to pave and light the streets, and it could be tax > money. Does that make it socialism? > > In Sweden I pay 320 SEK/mo ($40) for 10 Mbit/s. This is possible > because I live in a coop apartment building, where every apartment is > wired by an ISP, and the in-house switched LAN is connected to a > municipal fiber in the basement. This ISP (www.bredband.com) was > founded with venture capital during the dotcom boom and got a contract > with the largest national association of apartment coops (www.hsb.se). > Through this contract, apartment coops that are members have a very > streamlined procedure for signing up to get their apartment buildings > wired. > > This spring, the ISP is introducing a reduced price 2 Mbit/s offering > (still over CAT-5 twisted pair ethernet, so I guess it is really 10 > Mbit/s but bandwidth limited) and at the same time my line is upgraded > to 100 Mbit/s at unchanged price. > > As far as I know, there is no direct government subsidy, but a lot of > factors work together: > > * Compared to the U.S., more people here live in apartments. >People living in private homes cannot get broadband as cheap, >simply because wiring a dozen apartments in one building is a >lot cheaper than wiring a dozen private homes. > > * Coops is a very common form of apartment ownership in Sweden >since the 1930s, and the national associations work pretty >well. The nationwide template contract made it easier for a >lot of small coops to sign up, who don't have the technical >insights to do their own negotiations. > > * The dotcom boom provided the venture capital for this >broadband-only ISP. You could call this "subsidized by stupid >investors". I guess the stock price has fallen, but at least >this company is still around. > > * The old national telco is not involved at all in this solution. > > * The ISP rents dark fiber from the municipal utility between my >building and the ISP's facility in this town. The municipal >water, sewer, electricity, and heating utility is operated as a >whole-owned corporation (www.tekniskaverken.se) and I don't >know exactly how they have financed the build-out of the >municipal fiber network. > > I guess most of these conditions could also apply to New York City, > more than to rural or suburban America. > > > -- > Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermai
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Lars, I'm OK with street lights and quite a bit more, but you've got to draw the line somewhere. I certainly don't want my tax dollars paying for soeone else's water, electricity, gas, medicine, education, healthcare, etc. As to the cost of your broadband connection, I'd be willing to bet you are not counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that municipal fiber network as part of that $40/month. Beyond that, I'd also bet you pay a much larger percentage of your income in taxes than I, though mine are already far too high. Taxation is theft and thus immoral. Jim > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Lars Aronsson > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:46 AM > To: 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > Jim Henry wrote: > > > Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries where > > broadband is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it > > really cheaper or is it subsidized by the government? I honestly > > don't know the answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also > > and more widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise. > > If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it. > > I heard that socialism has gone away now that "cialis" is caught > in the spam filters. Seriously, though, I have yet to see street > lights operated on a pay-per-view commercial basis. Somebody paid > once-and-for-all to pave and light the streets, and it could be > tax money. Does that make it socialism? > > In Sweden I pay 320 SEK/mo ($40) for 10 Mbit/s. This is possible > because I live in a coop apartment building, where every apartment > is wired by an ISP, and the in-house switched LAN is connected to > a municipal fiber in the basement. This ISP (www.bredband.com) was > founded with venture capital during the dotcom boom and got a > contract with the largest national association of apartment coops > (www.hsb.se). Through this contract, apartment coops that are > members have a very streamlined procedure for signing up to get > their apartment buildings wired. > > This spring, the ISP is introducing a reduced price 2 Mbit/s > offering (still over CAT-5 twisted pair ethernet, so I guess it is > really 10 Mbit/s but bandwidth limited) and at the same time my > line is upgraded to 100 Mbit/s at unchanged price. > > As far as I know, there is no direct government subsidy, but a lot > of factors work together: > > * Compared to the U.S., more people here live in apartments. >People living in private homes cannot get broadband as cheap, >simply because wiring a dozen apartments in one building is a >lot cheaper than wiring a dozen private homes. > > * Coops is a very common form of apartment ownership in Sweden >since the 1930s, and the national associations work pretty >well. The nationwide template contract made it easier for a >lot of small coops to sign up, who don't have the technical >insights to do their own negotiations. > > * The dotcom boom provided the venture capital for this >broadband-only ISP. You could call this "subsidized by stupid >investors". I guess the stock price has fallen, but at least >this company is still around. > > * The old national telco is not involved at all in this solution. > > * The ISP rents dark fiber from the municipal utility between my >building and the ISP's facility in this town. The municipal >water, sewer, electricity, and heating utility is operated as a >whole-owned corporation (www.tekniskaverken.se) and I don't >know exactly how they have financed the build-out of the >municipal fiber network. > > I guess most of these conditions could also apply to New York > City, more than to rural or suburban America. > > > -- > Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
You're kidding, right? ;-) > -Original Message- > From: Billy Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:08 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > "...we have the strongest economy in the world"... > > Where do you live?? > > Certainly not here. > > Bruce > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Jim Henry > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:20 PM > To: 'Dustin Goodwin'; 'nycwireless' > Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > OK, guess I should have read the article first:-). No thanks > to govt. subsidized broadband. We already have too much of a > socialist load on our economy. The fact that we have less > socialism than most other countries is probably the main > reason that we have the strongest economy in the world, > the envy of other nations. Just my two cents. > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Dustin > > Goodwin > > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:40 AM > > To: nycwireless > > Subject: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read! > > > > > > If you think you have a well developed theory on the why or > why not of > > the municipal broadband debate you must read this article. > > Some of the conclusions: > > The US is desperately behind in broaband compared to the rest the > > world. As for existing US broadband.We are paying way too > much for way > > too little compared to the rest of the world. > > US monopolies are have bloated the price of broadband and slowed > > investment. Lack of Federal and State policy/programs/tax > > breaks/incentives are mostly to blame. > > As we learned during the electrification of the rural US free > > enterprise is not the best system for bringing real low > cost broadband > > to everyone. If your municipality really wants to be on the > broadband > > grid and your expecting help from private telcos... your screwed. > > Municipal broadband or the threat of municipal broadband has been > > shown to encourage private sector investment. > > Most places including NYC should be shopping around for a municipal > > broadband solution if they expect their businesses to compete on a > > global level. > > The US communication infrastructure is stagnating and the > fixes will > > come from a combination public policy *AND* private enterprise. > > > > *Let There Be Wi-Fi* > > Broadband is the electricity of the 21st century-and much of America > > is being left in the dark. > > http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0601.podesta.html > > -- > > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > > Un/Subscribe: > > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > > Date: 1/5/2006 > > > > > > -- > NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ > Un/Subscribe: > http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ > Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/ > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.14.14/222 - Release > Date: 1/5/2006 > > -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Jim Henry wrote: > Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries where > broadband is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it > really cheaper or is it subsidized by the government? I honestly > don't know the answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also > and more widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise. > If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it. I heard that socialism has gone away now that "cialis" is caught in the spam filters. Seriously, though, I have yet to see street lights operated on a pay-per-view commercial basis. Somebody paid once-and-for-all to pave and light the streets, and it could be tax money. Does that make it socialism? In Sweden I pay 320 SEK/mo ($40) for 10 Mbit/s. This is possible because I live in a coop apartment building, where every apartment is wired by an ISP, and the in-house switched LAN is connected to a municipal fiber in the basement. This ISP (www.bredband.com) was founded with venture capital during the dotcom boom and got a contract with the largest national association of apartment coops (www.hsb.se). Through this contract, apartment coops that are members have a very streamlined procedure for signing up to get their apartment buildings wired. This spring, the ISP is introducing a reduced price 2 Mbit/s offering (still over CAT-5 twisted pair ethernet, so I guess it is really 10 Mbit/s but bandwidth limited) and at the same time my line is upgraded to 100 Mbit/s at unchanged price. As far as I know, there is no direct government subsidy, but a lot of factors work together: * Compared to the U.S., more people here live in apartments. People living in private homes cannot get broadband as cheap, simply because wiring a dozen apartments in one building is a lot cheaper than wiring a dozen private homes. * Coops is a very common form of apartment ownership in Sweden since the 1930s, and the national associations work pretty well. The nationwide template contract made it easier for a lot of small coops to sign up, who don't have the technical insights to do their own negotiations. * The dotcom boom provided the venture capital for this broadband-only ISP. You could call this "subsidized by stupid investors". I guess the stock price has fallen, but at least this company is still around. * The old national telco is not involved at all in this solution. * The ISP rents dark fiber from the municipal utility between my building and the ISP's facility in this town. The municipal water, sewer, electricity, and heating utility is operated as a whole-owned corporation (www.tekniskaverken.se) and I don't know exactly how they have financed the build-out of the municipal fiber network. I guess most of these conditions could also apply to New York City, more than to rural or suburban America. -- Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se -- NYCwireless - http://www.nycwireless.net/ Un/Subscribe: http://lists.nycwireless.net/mailman/listinfo/nycwireless/ Archives: http://lists.nycwireless.net/pipermail/nycwireless/
