Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 13/12/2011 Ross Gardler wrote: On 13 December 2011 11:33, Kazunari Hirano wrote: This is great. Where is the pootle server? https://translate.apache.org/projects/OOo/ It's only just gone live so your guidance on how the AOO project should engage with it will be most appreciated. The Pootle server is issuing warnings because of an expired SSL certificate: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4274 Anyway, content is not yet there since migration from (a backup of) the old Pootle server is being discussed in other threads, so this is not particularly urgent. Regards, Andrea.
Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
Hi, Am 19.12.2011 13:38, schrieb Rob Weir: On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:39 AM, Dwayne Bailey dwa...@translate.org.za wrote: Small teams, small number of people wanting to make sure that OOo in whatever form is localised. The strings are almost 100% the same, at the moment, between AOO and LibO. So how to share resource between the two. I don't want to waste people time translating the same thing twice. I also want to make sure that the translations are consistent no matter where it was translated, so sharing for consistency is important to me. So the one issue is logistics of doing this, the other is the licensing concern. I don't think that we can avoid having a divergence in translation strings. New features added to LO will differ from new features added to AOO. I need to agree here - actually LibO has several features that AOO does not have. But LibO UI has undergone some string changes as well - so you even won't get 100% translation if you apply LibO translations to AOO. But the underlying terms we use to describe the UI and the basic application features will remain the same. Terms like pages, 'sections, sheets and 'fonts etc., are not going to change. So in that case, would a shared translation memory database help? The setup at OOo was, that the full po repository was the translation memory. You seem to mix that with the glossary (which defines terms). TM and glossary might seem similar for UI, as UI string segments are normally rather short. Unfortunately - due to the complexity of the software - the UI strings allone can hardly be used as translation memory - they need to be accompanied with context information (location in the code files). e.g. Sheet has at least three different german translations, same with font. regards, André
Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
On Wed, 2011-12-21 at 00:04 +0100, André Schnabel wrote: Hi, Am 19.12.2011 13:38, schrieb Rob Weir: On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:39 AM, Dwayne Bailey dwa...@translate.org.za wrote: Small teams, small number of people wanting to make sure that OOo in whatever form is localised. The strings are almost 100% the same, at the moment, between AOO and LibO. So how to share resource between the two. I don't want to waste people time translating the same thing twice. I also want to make sure that the translations are consistent no matter where it was translated, so sharing for consistency is important to me. So the one issue is logistics of doing this, the other is the licensing concern. I don't think that we can avoid having a divergence in translation strings. New features added to LO will differ from new features added to AOO. I need to agree here - actually LibO has several features that AOO does not have. But LibO UI has undergone some string changes as well - so you even won't get 100% translation if you apply LibO translations to AOO. But the underlying terms we use to describe the UI and the basic application features will remain the same. Terms like pages, 'sections, sheets and 'fonts etc., are not going to change. So in that case, would a shared translation memory database help? The setup at OOo was, that the full po repository was the translation memory. You seem to mix that with the glossary (which defines terms). TM and glossary might seem similar for UI, as UI string segments are normally rather short. Unfortunately - due to the complexity of the software - the UI strings allone can hardly be used as translation memory - they need to be accompanied with context information (location in the code files). e.g. Sheet has at least three different german translations, same with font. regards, Hi André thanks for your explanations. I'm still left, as a bystander when it comes to the translations, with one simple question. What happened to the pootle server at OO.o? Someone has to know. //drew
Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
On 12/20/2011 3:15 PM, drew wrote: On Wed, 2011-12-21 at 00:04 +0100, André Schnabel wrote: Hi, Am 19.12.2011 13:38, schrieb Rob Weir: On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:39 AM, Dwayne Baileydwa...@translate.org.za wrote: Small teams, small number of people wanting to make sure that OOo in whatever form is localised. The strings are almost 100% the same, at the moment, between AOO and LibO. So how to share resource between the two. I don't want to waste people time translating the same thing twice. I also want to make sure that the translations are consistent no matter where it was translated, so sharing for consistency is important to me. So the one issue is logistics of doing this, the other is the licensing concern. I don't think that we can avoid having a divergence in translation strings. New features added to LO will differ from new features added to AOO. I need to agree here - actually LibO has several features that AOO does not have. But LibO UI has undergone some string changes as well - so you even won't get 100% translation if you apply LibO translations to AOO. But the underlying terms we use to describe the UI and the basic application features will remain the same. Terms like pages, 'sections, sheets and 'fonts etc., are not going to change. So in that case, would a shared translation memory database help? The setup at OOo was, that the full po repository was the translation memory. You seem to mix that with the glossary (which defines terms). TM and glossary might seem similar for UI, as UI string segments are normally rather short. Unfortunately - due to the complexity of the software - the UI strings allone can hardly be used as translation memory - they need to be accompanied with context information (location in the code files). e.g. Sheet has at least three different german translations, same with font. regards, Hi André thanks for your explanations. I'm still left, as a bystander when it comes to the translations, with one simple question. What happened to the pootle server at OO.o? As I mentioned before [1], that server is in the possession of TOO. Andrew [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201112.mbox/%3c4eeb7b89.4050...@oracle.com%3E Someone has to know. //drew -- Andrew Rist | Interoperability Architect OracleCorporate Architecture Group Redwood Shores, CA | 650.506.9847
Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:39 AM, Dwayne Bailey dwa...@translate.org.za wrote: On 2011-12-16 07:07, Dave Fisher wrote: On Dec 14, 2011, at 7:38 AM, Dwayne Bailey wrote: On 2011-12-13 23:49, Gavin McDonald wrote: -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgard...@opendirective.com] Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2011 12:39 AM To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects) On 13 December 2011 14:27, Dwayne Baileydwa...@translate.org.za wrote: ... From the look of it Apache might be using this server for more then just OOo which I love even more. The Subversion project has been using Pootle for some time. They maintained their own instance in a VM. When AOO arrived the infrastructure team decided it would make sense to provide a foundation wide server. It has only just gone online, but it other projects may pick it up over time. I'm not sure where to ask this but does Apache, or one of the corporate backers, want to engage with Translate to setup and maintain this server? Here is the right place to ask that question. The AOO PPMC needs to figure out, with infrastructure, how to configure and use this server. Now we know you are around we know where to look for further help. Thanks. We do not have any folks outside of the ASF on our servers. If any of the translate folks are committers then fine we can see what we can do there, though I do feel it has been configured with care and is appropriate for our needs. As a translate expert please share your thoughts on what you feel needs doing to help improve the Pootle Server. There are other people on our team better qualified for that kind of review. But it needs access to the server to evaluate. And no I doubt any of us are commiters. I'm sure there will be a way that you can contribute. In fact I Do have a question for you, is it possible to get the current OOo translations migrated over into this instance or would it be too much work ? (and without affecting the other projects or our configuration.) Not sure I understand what you mean. If you mean pulled off the old server and onto the new I don't know if that server even exists, we don't have access to it anymore. One change I would recommend is to have PO files stored in SVN and make creation of SDF files a build time event. My biggest concern as a localiser would be the sharing of translation resources between LibO and AOO. I can only guess, please explain your concerns. Small teams, small number of people wanting to make sure that OOo in whatever form is localised. The strings are almost 100% the same, at the moment, between AOO and LibO. So how to share resource between the two. I don't want to waste people time translating the same thing twice. I also want to make sure that the translations are consistent no matter where it was translated, so sharing for consistency is important to me. So the one issue is logistics of doing this, the other is the licensing concern. On the license side, making the translations available under the Apache 2.0 license will allow both AOO and LO to use the translations. Would there be any value to sharing the translation memory data independently of the underlying translations? Would that give any benefit? I don't think that we can avoid having a divergence in translation strings. New features added to LO will differ from new features added to AOO. But the underlying terms we use to describe the UI and the basic application features will remain the same. Terms like pages, 'sections, sheets and 'fonts etc., are not going to change. So in that case, would a shared translation memory database help? Another other approach would be to actually have shared translation strings, but adopt a naming convention to distinguish LO-specific strings from AOO-specific strings, such as using the prefix LO_ or AOO_. The common strings would remain the same, making it easier for a new language translation to target both apps at once. -Rob Regards, Dave And another question I asked on IRC the other day but no -one seemed to know, can there be support for groups - would be much easier to integrate better with LDAP if there were support for groups. (Feel free to take that last question off list or ask me to file an issue as appropriate.) Thanks Gav... Ross -- regards Dwayne -- regards Dwayne
Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
On 2011-12-16 07:07, Dave Fisher wrote: On Dec 14, 2011, at 7:38 AM, Dwayne Bailey wrote: On 2011-12-13 23:49, Gavin McDonald wrote: -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgard...@opendirective.com] Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2011 12:39 AM To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects) On 13 December 2011 14:27, Dwayne Baileydwa...@translate.org.za wrote: ... From the look of it Apache might be using this server for more then just OOo which I love even more. The Subversion project has been using Pootle for some time. They maintained their own instance in a VM. When AOO arrived the infrastructure team decided it would make sense to provide a foundation wide server. It has only just gone online, but it other projects may pick it up over time. I'm not sure where to ask this but does Apache, or one of the corporate backers, want to engage with Translate to setup and maintain this server? Here is the right place to ask that question. The AOO PPMC needs to figure out, with infrastructure, how to configure and use this server. Now we know you are around we know where to look for further help. Thanks. We do not have any folks outside of the ASF on our servers. If any of the translate folks are committers then fine we can see what we can do there, though I do feel it has been configured with care and is appropriate for our needs. As a translate expert please share your thoughts on what you feel needs doing to help improve the Pootle Server. There are other people on our team better qualified for that kind of review. But it needs access to the server to evaluate. And no I doubt any of us are commiters. I'm sure there will be a way that you can contribute. In fact I Do have a question for you, is it possible to get the current OOo translations migrated over into this instance or would it be too much work ? (and without affecting the other projects or our configuration.) Not sure I understand what you mean. If you mean pulled off the old server and onto the new I don't know if that server even exists, we don't have access to it anymore. One change I would recommend is to have PO files stored in SVN and make creation of SDF files a build time event. My biggest concern as a localiser would be the sharing of translation resources between LibO and AOO. I can only guess, please explain your concerns. Small teams, small number of people wanting to make sure that OOo in whatever form is localised. The strings are almost 100% the same, at the moment, between AOO and LibO. So how to share resource between the two. I don't want to waste people time translating the same thing twice. I also want to make sure that the translations are consistent no matter where it was translated, so sharing for consistency is important to me. So the one issue is logistics of doing this, the other is the licensing concern. Regards, Dave And another question I asked on IRC the other day but no -one seemed to know, can there be support for groups - would be much easier to integrate better with LDAP if there were support for groups. (Feel free to take that last question off list or ask me to file an issue as appropriate.) Thanks Gav... Ross -- regards Dwayne -- regards Dwayne
Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
On Dec 14, 2011, at 7:38 AM, Dwayne Bailey wrote: On 2011-12-13 23:49, Gavin McDonald wrote: -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgard...@opendirective.com] Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2011 12:39 AM To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects) On 13 December 2011 14:27, Dwayne Baileydwa...@translate.org.za wrote: ... From the look of it Apache might be using this server for more then just OOo which I love even more. The Subversion project has been using Pootle for some time. They maintained their own instance in a VM. When AOO arrived the infrastructure team decided it would make sense to provide a foundation wide server. It has only just gone online, but it other projects may pick it up over time. I'm not sure where to ask this but does Apache, or one of the corporate backers, want to engage with Translate to setup and maintain this server? Here is the right place to ask that question. The AOO PPMC needs to figure out, with infrastructure, how to configure and use this server. Now we know you are around we know where to look for further help. Thanks. We do not have any folks outside of the ASF on our servers. If any of the translate folks are committers then fine we can see what we can do there, though I do feel it has been configured with care and is appropriate for our needs. As a translate expert please share your thoughts on what you feel needs doing to help improve the Pootle Server. There are other people on our team better qualified for that kind of review. But it needs access to the server to evaluate. And no I doubt any of us are commiters. I'm sure there will be a way that you can contribute. In fact I Do have a question for you, is it possible to get the current OOo translations migrated over into this instance or would it be too much work ? (and without affecting the other projects or our configuration.) Not sure I understand what you mean. If you mean pulled off the old server and onto the new I don't know if that server even exists, we don't have access to it anymore. One change I would recommend is to have PO files stored in SVN and make creation of SDF files a build time event. My biggest concern as a localiser would be the sharing of translation resources between LibO and AOO. I can only guess, please explain your concerns. Regards, Dave And another question I asked on IRC the other day but no -one seemed to know, can there be support for groups - would be much easier to integrate better with LDAP if there were support for groups. (Feel free to take that last question off list or ask me to file an issue as appropriate.) Thanks Gav... Ross -- regards Dwayne
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Hi On 13-12-2011 21:09, Jomar Silva wrote: If you (and the people you are claiming to represent) are really No, Jomar, i do not represent anyone. following the lists, you should be aware that non-coding activities are being discussed here too in the past months (but our major focus was on getting the repository alive, the IPR cleaning done and the first builds working). Ok. Was a mistake how i wrote in my previous email. Us who ? Are you talking on behalf of someone else ? Who could have the same doubt, Jomar, but now, all was clarified. Bests, Claudio
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 2011/11/14 10:54 Claudio Filho filh...@gmail.com wrote: Who could have the same doubt, Jomar, but now, all was clarified. Excellent, and welcome aboard ! Jomar
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Michael, I'm sorry we have failed to include you and other NL volunteers. It is fantastic that you have found your way here. Even better that you have de-lurked to share your story. Please be assured that your skills and contributions are needed and recognised here at Apache OpenOffice. That being said it is fair to say that we need to improve our support of localisation efforts. What we need is a champion for those efforts, someone who understands the needs of the NL projects. Someone who can help us define the infrastructure and processes needed to support their work. Please tell us what you need in order to continue your work and where possible help us get it up and running. At this stage it is not clear what the best structure and process is, but you can help us find it. We ask for you patience, we need to ensure we create the best NL environment for everyone. For now that means time on this list, you've already seem that segregating activities on multiple lists can result in people being left behind. It can help with email management if you use, and encourage others to use, [NL] at the start of your subject lines. Note that, as a starting point our infrastructure team have setup a pootle server. Let's get you up and running on that server. Welcome to Apache OpenOffice. Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 12, 2011 11:37 PM, Michael Bauer f...@akerbeltz.org wrote:
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Hi Ross, Michael and all, On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: Please tell us what you need in order to continue your work and where possible help us get it up and running. At this stage it is not clear what the best structure and process is, but you can help us find it. We ask for you patience, we need to ensure we create the best NL environment for everyone. Good to know. I have a proposal. It can help with email management if you use, and encourage others to use, [NL] at the start of your subject lines. I will do this. Note that, as a starting point our infrastructure team have setup a pootle server. Let's get you up and running on that server. This is great. Where is the pootle server? Thanks, khirano -- khir...@apache.org OpenOffice.org[TM](incubating)|The Free and Open Productivity Suite Apache incubator http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
[NL] Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Hi Ross, Thanks for the warm welcome :) 13/12/2011 08:39, sgrìobh Ross Gardler: Please tell us what you need in order to continue your work and where possible help us get it up and running. At this stage it is not clear what the best structure and process is, but you can help us find it. We ask for you patience, we need to ensure we create the best NL environment for everyone. For now that means time on this list, you've already seem that segregating activities on multiple lists can result in people being left behind. It can help with email management if you use, and encourage others to use, [NL] at the start of your subject lines. Note that, as a starting point our infrastructure team have setup a pootle server. Let's get you up and running on that server. Welcome to Apache OpenOffice. Well, I'm not sure I can speak for other locales, certainly not the big ones but I suspect many of the smaller locales (i.e. locales with very few team members will be in a similar position). Now, in an ideal world, I'd like to see the following: - AOO to be hosted on the same Pootle server as LibreOffice. With an arrangement for 3 separate branches - AOO/LO shared strings, AOO specific strings, LO specific strings. It would reduce the workload for small teams, which is a crucial factor. For teams with, say, a dozen or more active localizers it doesn't matters so much but if you're a 1-2 member team, having to manage yet another localization site, potentially with large overlaps, would result in serious capacity problems. Failing that, a really *easy* way of cross-porting the po files to absolutely minimize the workload for small teams. - A locale like Gaelic (I feel) doesn't need a full-blown locale site, we don't have critical mass on that scale. We currently redirect all stuff on the various localization projects to a general Gaelic forum with a special section on localization - and even that's quiet enough. I'd be perfectly happy with a small corner for downloads, some screenshots, basic info - the current solution over on LibreOffice (http://www.libreoffice.org/international-sites/) works very well for small teams, perhaps a days work to set it up and then very low maintenance. I'd be very happy with that. Whether that's a site like that, something more Wiki-esque or forum-like, I don't really mind. - Ideally, shared hosting of the extensions. Apologies if I'm treading on toes or if this has been debated before but Ross asked what my locale's needs are in terms of l10n ;) It's like this - I only have one extension, a Gaelic spellchecker. At the moment I'm hosting it on both extension sites and I'm forever trying to explain to people that they can use either... time, I could spend better cracking on with localizing something else. There may be technical reasons why that doesn't work but from an end-user and small locale point of view, having those two sites with extensions that work on either platform nonetheless is annoying. - As a matter of urgency, some simple download site where locales that got stuck when OO Pootle went down can get their po files. That's about it ;) If I'm upsetting politics, my apologies, as I said before, I have no interest in those when it comes to localization, the above is a totally neutral statement of what my locale's l10n needs would look like in an ideal world. Best Michael
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 13 December 2011 11:33, Kazunari Hirano khir...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ross, Michael and all, On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: Please tell us what you need in order to continue your work and where possible help us get it up and running. At this stage it is not clear what the best structure and process is, but you can help us find it. We ask for you patience, we need to ensure we create the best NL environment for everyone. Good to know. I have a proposal. Excellent Note that, as a starting point our infrastructure team have setup a pootle server. Let's get you up and running on that server. This is great. Where is the pootle server? https://translate.apache.org/projects/OOo/ It's only just gone live so your guidance on how the AOO project should engage with it will be most appreciated. Ross
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Hi Ross, On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: you patience, we need to ensure we create the best NL environment for everyone. Good to know. I have a proposal. Excellent Thanks. I will make a proposal on NL and Localization. Just a moment please. :) https://translate.apache.org/projects/OOo/ It's only just gone live so your guidance on how the AOO project should engage with it will be most appreciated. It takes quite a bit of skill to set up the pootle server for OpenOffice.org use. We, OpenOffice.org, were realizing the Continuous L10N. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ContinuousL10n We, Apache OpenOffice, need Ivo Hinkelmann's help. Ivo san, can you help us? Thanks, khirano -- khir...@apache.org OpenOffice.org[TM](incubating)|The Free and Open Productivity Suite Apache incubator http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Ross, There are more of us, former NL volunteers, lurking in the list. As Michael, I have been mostly reading and trying to get used to the Apache way while having to cope with an unusual amount of work on my day job. It is good to see Louis active once more. His experience with the NL groups in OOo was one of the main reasons why OOo was eagerly adopted by several NL groups that were never considered economically viable for other products. [...] Note that, as a starting point our infrastructure team have setup a pootle server. Let's get you up and running on that server. Where is that pootle server and what is the process for volunteers to start working on translations? -- Roberto Salomon http://notaslivres.webhop.net
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 13 December 2011 13:21, Roberto Salomon roberto.salo...@gmail.com wrote: Ross, There are more of us, former NL volunteers, lurking in the list. Great to see you de-lurking. I'm sure Michael will be pleased to hear he's not the only one. I'll bet there are a good few more. It is good to see Louis active once more. His experience with the NL groups in OOo was one of the main reasons why OOo was eagerly adopted by several NL groups that were never considered economically viable for other products. With the guidance of Louis and people with experience, such as yourself, I'm sure we can make this work in the ASF. One of the strengths of our model is that we don't care about the global scale economies. Your little corner of the NL world will, through the meritocratic process, give you as much influence as any other active participant. [...] Note that, as a starting point our infrastructure team have setup a pootle server. Let's get you up and running on that server. Where is that pootle server and what is the process for volunteers to start working on translations? It's at https://translate.apache.org/projects/OOo/ but is completely unpopulated at present and Khirano indicates there is a fair amount of configuration needs doing. Perhaps you can help with that? Ross
Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
Hi, Sorry this will appear out-of-thread as I've only just subscribed. First, congratulations on setting up the Pootle server. As a South African OOo localiser and a Pootle developer this is great news. As Khirano said It takes quite a bit of skill to set up the pootle server for OpenOffice.org use. For the record, the last OOo Pootle server was setup by the organisation that develops Pootle - Translate.org.za (I work for them). We did this with an engagement with Oracle and it allowed us to optimise the server as well as change code to increase performance. So an engagement that benefited all Pootle users. I had hoped that that server would make it to Apache, but it seems not. From the look of it Apache might be using this server for more then just OOo which I love even more. I'm not sure where to ask this but does Apache, or one of the corporate backers, want to engage with Translate to setup and maintain this server? Sorry to sound like a salesman on this list but not sure where else I would ask this question. -- regards Dwayne
Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
On 13 December 2011 14:27, Dwayne Bailey dwa...@translate.org.za wrote: ... From the look of it Apache might be using this server for more then just OOo which I love even more. The Subversion project has been using Pootle for some time. They maintained their own instance in a VM. When AOO arrived the infrastructure team decided it would make sense to provide a foundation wide server. It has only just gone online, but it other projects may pick it up over time. I'm not sure where to ask this but does Apache, or one of the corporate backers, want to engage with Translate to setup and maintain this server? Here is the right place to ask that question. The AOO PPMC needs to figure out, with infrastructure, how to configure and use this server. Now we know you are around we know where to look for further help. Thanks. Ross
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Michael Bauer f...@akerbeltz.org wrote: Hi folks, I admit to mostly lurking but kinda feel compelled to chip in at this point. First off, I'm just a translator, I came to OO late in the day to resucitate the Scottish Gaelic localization which had fallen format. I have no coding skills, at least none at the level needed to contribute code, so I consider my skills in translation my contribution. As such, I usually have little interest in the direction projects such as OO, Mozilla w/e take, code-wise or politically, except for trying to promote translator-friendly localization processes. The impending rift and eventual split took me completely by surprise. Literally. One day I had been translating away in Pootle, the next day it was dead and it took a lot of googling to eventually figure out what had been going on. I'm just glad I had taken a backup the day before, I don't know how many nascent projects have had their entire work frozen on Pootle since. Which is why I felt a little irked by the suggestion someone made that interested NL projects could come forward. If it hadn't been for someone's blog post I came across eventually, I *still* wouldn't know that OO had shifted to Apache. I suspect very few NL projects will have come forward because for a long time it was not obvious to people not hooked into the develpment mailing lists (conjecture, mylord) that that's what happened. Apart from spam, nothing has ever been posted on the l10n list which was the only list I had subscribed to for the above reasons. So if we're supposed to step forward, perhaps someone should let the l10n list subscribers know? I did send a note to the i10n tools list back in November: http://markmail.org/message/6732ikp6xkqtfgx6 But the i10n dev list looks dead. I don't see any new posts there since September 2009. I can send the same note there, if we think there are other lurkers on that list still. -Rob My main concern are the Gaelic users, however few those may be, who are still stuck on 3.01 and who know nothing of this break, apart from the fact that the extensions site has been going offline regulary. So I'd like to find some way of completing the localization - which should be relatively easy as I completed it over on LO, so they can finally update to whatever version is next. Salude e trigu, Michael And incidentally, translation *is* a technical skill - it just doesn't involve code dancing across the screen ;)
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Try this page. http://ooo-site.apache.org/projects/native-lang.html It has all the NLC project leads. It is linked to from ooo-site.apache.org. Kay elevated this. Gotta run. Regards, Dave On Dec 13, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Michael Bauer f...@akerbeltz.org wrote: Hi folks, I admit to mostly lurking but kinda feel compelled to chip in at this point. First off, I'm just a translator, I came to OO late in the day to resucitate the Scottish Gaelic localization which had fallen format. I have no coding skills, at least none at the level needed to contribute code, so I consider my skills in translation my contribution. As such, I usually have little interest in the direction projects such as OO, Mozilla w/e take, code-wise or politically, except for trying to promote translator-friendly localization processes. The impending rift and eventual split took me completely by surprise. Literally. One day I had been translating away in Pootle, the next day it was dead and it took a lot of googling to eventually figure out what had been going on. I'm just glad I had taken a backup the day before, I don't know how many nascent projects have had their entire work frozen on Pootle since. Which is why I felt a little irked by the suggestion someone made that interested NL projects could come forward. If it hadn't been for someone's blog post I came across eventually, I *still* wouldn't know that OO had shifted to Apache. I suspect very few NL projects will have come forward because for a long time it was not obvious to people not hooked into the develpment mailing lists (conjecture, mylord) that that's what happened. Apart from spam, nothing has ever been posted on the l10n list which was the only list I had subscribed to for the above reasons. So if we're supposed to step forward, perhaps someone should let the l10n list subscribers know? I did send a note to the i10n tools list back in November: http://markmail.org/message/6732ikp6xkqtfgx6 But the i10n dev list looks dead. I don't see any new posts there since September 2009. I can send the same note there, if we think there are other lurkers on that list still. -Rob My main concern are the Gaelic users, however few those may be, who are still stuck on 3.01 and who know nothing of this break, apart from the fact that the extensions site has been going offline regulary. So I'd like to find some way of completing the localization - which should be relatively easy as I completed it over on LO, so they can finally update to whatever version is next. Salude e trigu, Michael And incidentally, translation *is* a technical skill - it just doesn't involve code dancing across the screen ;)
RE: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects)
-Original Message- From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgard...@opendirective.com] Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2011 12:39 AM To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Pootle (was Re: About the Former Native Language projects) On 13 December 2011 14:27, Dwayne Bailey dwa...@translate.org.za wrote: ... From the look of it Apache might be using this server for more then just OOo which I love even more. The Subversion project has been using Pootle for some time. They maintained their own instance in a VM. When AOO arrived the infrastructure team decided it would make sense to provide a foundation wide server. It has only just gone online, but it other projects may pick it up over time. I'm not sure where to ask this but does Apache, or one of the corporate backers, want to engage with Translate to setup and maintain this server? Here is the right place to ask that question. The AOO PPMC needs to figure out, with infrastructure, how to configure and use this server. Now we know you are around we know where to look for further help. Thanks. We do not have any folks outside of the ASF on our servers. If any of the translate folks are committers then fine we can see what we can do there, though I do feel it has been configured with care and is appropriate for our needs. As a translate expert please share your thoughts on what you feel needs doing to help improve the Pootle Server. In fact I Do have a question for you, is it possible to get the current OOo translations migrated over into this instance or would it be too much work ? (and without affecting the other projects or our configuration.) And another question I asked on IRC the other day but no -one seemed to know, can there be support for groups - would be much easier to integrate better with LDAP if there were support for groups. (Feel free to take that last question off list or ask me to file an issue as appropriate.) Thanks Gav... Ross
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Hi On 12-12-2011 13:53, Rob Weir wrote: On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Claudio F Filho filh...@gmail.com wrote: I think that more that the license issue, we have a lot of people unhappy with the way that LibO is following, the same people that was part of NL and chose in go to LibO believing in a thing and finding other, so, i think that really have people interested in help here, but with this posture of Apache are lost, without idea where help. Maybe is time to consider better this position and find a place for this work's force. Hi Claudio, what do you mean by this posture of Apache? I hope there is a simple misunderstanding we can clear up. This is a general vision of many people, and i can talk about the old brazilian volunteers, that are following this list. And more, after a campaign here, in Brazil, about the lack of code's participation, was widespread the idea of is better don't help. Out of this second topic, that is a local problem, we saw this code's profile as preference and without a place for other things. Now, with Louis bringing this questions for discussion, i believe that can be a mistake/misunderstand from us. And this thread clarifys for other people that could have the same vision. Best regards, Claudio
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 2011/11/13 20:48 Claudio Filho filh...@gmail.com wrote: This is a general vision of many people, and i can talk about the old brazilian volunteers, that are following this list. And more, after a campaign here, in Brazil, about the lack of code's participation, was widespread the idea of is better don't help. No, this wasn't the message spread in Brazil. The message was clear about *solid contributions* to the project, instead of the good-and-old cheap talk that we used to have. Simon was with me on FISL were we showed the major challenges of the project at that time, explained how to contribute and also presented our shared view about the future of the project. Out of this second topic, that is a local problem, we saw this code's profile as preference and without a place for other things. If you (and the people you are claiming to represent) are really following the lists, you should be aware that non-coding activities are being discussed here too in the past months (but our major focus was on getting the repository alive, the IPR cleaning done and the first builds working). Now, with Louis bringing this questions for discussion, i believe that can be a mistake/misunderstand from us. And this thread clarifys for other people that could have the same vision. Us who ? Are you talking on behalf of someone else ? Best, Jomar
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 12/13/2011 17:47, Claudio F Filho wrote: Hi On 12-12-2011 13:53, Rob Weir wrote: On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Claudio F Filhofilh...@gmail.com wrote: I think that more that the license issue, we have a lot of people unhappy with the way that LibO is following, the same people that was part of NL and chose in go to LibO believing in a thing and finding other, so, i think that really have people interested in help here, but with this posture of Apache are lost, without idea where help. Maybe is time to consider better this position and find a place for this work's force. Hi Claudio, what do you mean by this posture of Apache? I hope there is a simple misunderstanding we can clear up. This is a general vision of many people, and i can talk about the old brazilian volunteers, that are following this list. And more, after a campaign here, in Brazil, about the lack of code's participation, was widespread the idea of is better don't help. Out of this second topic, that is a local problem, we saw this code's profile as preference and without a place for other things. Now, with Louis bringing this questions for discussion, i believe that can be a mistake/misunderstand from us. And this thread clarifys for other people that could have the same vision. Best regards, Claudio Hi, Claudio, This is a personal note. I never have contributed a line of code to the project, nor was I invited as an initial committer. But I work hard around here, on various things like the wiki. The other members voted me in as a committer and PPMC member; it can happen. Good luck! -- /tj/
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
FWIW; --- Mar 13/12/11, tj t...@apache.org ha scritto: ... Hi, Claudio, This is a personal note. I never have contributed a line of code to the project, nor was I invited as an initial committer. But I work hard around here, on various things like the wiki. The other members voted me in as a committer and PPMC member; it can happen. My case is similar: I never submitted any line of code to the project before being voted a committer. I doubt anyone actually thought I would commit stuff. Furthermore, I was never part of the previous OOo community and my main interest for hanging around here is/was the license change. I think when 3.4 is released we should be very verbal about it ... marketing should be considering phrases in the lines of Now OpenOffice is REALLY free! cheers, Pedro.
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Hi On 10-12-2011 20:12, Louis R Suárez-Potts wrote: Regular readers of this list might recall discussions by Khirano, Rob and others about the fate of the Native Language projects in OOo. I'm not sure what the outcome was, and a quick browse of archives didn't really enlighten me, as it seems things were left hanging. +1. I'd like to see if we can resolve this issue. A recap: OOo had many native-language projects in which non-coding discussions were in the native tongue, e.g., Russian, Viet, Brazilian Portuguese, Gaelic(s), and so on. At any given moment there were about a hundred, and one can see these listed still at http://projects.openoffice.org /native-lang.html. It is true. The focus *only*(?) over code, IMHO, is a error. We have many good people that haven't idea about programming, but have good ideas about promotion, artwork, and other fronts. Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I agree with you, Louis. QA, doc and other elements where is not necessary coding skill, giving more freedom for non-tecnical people help the project. PS The majority of the NL projects reformed to constitute LibreOffice. Because of disparities of license, I suppose harmonisation of effort will be more difficult, but by no means ought it to be abandoned, if actual contributors deem it worthwhile. I dislike duplication of effort both as a project manager and as someone who then has to persuade the bewildered user that A and B are just alike but one is more equal than the other. I think that more that the license issue, we have a lot of people unhappy with the way that LibO is following, the same people that was part of NL and chose in go to LibO believing in a thing and finding other, so, i think that really have people interested in help here, but with this posture of Apache are lost, without idea where help. Maybe is time to consider better this position and find a place for this work's force. Bests, Claudio
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Claudio F Filho filh...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On 10-12-2011 20:12, Louis R Suárez-Potts wrote: Regular readers of this list might recall discussions by Khirano, Rob and others about the fate of the Native Language projects in OOo. I'm not sure what the outcome was, and a quick browse of archives didn't really enlighten me, as it seems things were left hanging. +1. I'd like to see if we can resolve this issue. A recap: OOo had many native-language projects in which non-coding discussions were in the native tongue, e.g., Russian, Viet, Brazilian Portuguese, Gaelic(s), and so on. At any given moment there were about a hundred, and one can see these listed still at http://projects.openoffice.org /native-lang.html. It is true. The focus *only*(?) over code, IMHO, is a error. We have many good people that haven't idea about programming, but have good ideas about promotion, artwork, and other fronts. Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I agree with you, Louis. QA, doc and other elements where is not necessary coding skill, giving more freedom for non-tecnical people help the project. PS The majority of the NL projects reformed to constitute LibreOffice. Because of disparities of license, I suppose harmonisation of effort will be more difficult, but by no means ought it to be abandoned, if actual contributors deem it worthwhile. I dislike duplication of effort both as a project manager and as someone who then has to persuade the bewildered user that A and B are just alike but one is more equal than the other. I think that more that the license issue, we have a lot of people unhappy with the way that LibO is following, the same people that was part of NL and chose in go to LibO believing in a thing and finding other, so, i think that really have people interested in help here, but with this posture of Apache are lost, without idea where help. Maybe is time to consider better this position and find a place for this work's force. Hi Claudio, what do you mean by this posture of Apache? I hope there is a simple misunderstanding we can clear up. -Rob Bests, Claudio
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Hi folks, I admit to mostly lurking but kinda feel compelled to chip in at this point. First off, I'm just a translator, I came to OO late in the day to resucitate the Scottish Gaelic localization which had fallen format. I have no coding skills, at least none at the level needed to contribute code, so I consider my skills in translation my contribution. As such, I usually have little interest in the direction projects such as OO, Mozilla w/e take, code-wise or politically, except for trying to promote translator-friendly localization processes. The impending rift and eventual split took me completely by surprise. Literally. One day I had been translating away in Pootle, the next day it was dead and it took a lot of googling to eventually figure out what had been going on. I'm just glad I had taken a backup the day before, I don't know how many nascent projects have had their entire work frozen on Pootle since. Which is why I felt a little irked by the suggestion someone made that interested NL projects could come forward. If it hadn't been for someone's blog post I came across eventually, I *still* wouldn't know that OO had shifted to Apache. I suspect very few NL projects will have come forward because for a long time it was not obvious to people not hooked into the develpment mailing lists (conjecture, mylord) that that's what happened. Apart from spam, nothing has ever been posted on the l10n list which was the only list I had subscribed to for the above reasons. So if we're supposed to step forward, perhaps someone should let the l10n list subscribers know? My main concern are the Gaelic users, however few those may be, who are still stuck on 3.01 and who know nothing of this break, apart from the fact that the extensions site has been going offline regulary. So I'd like to find some way of completing the localization - which should be relatively easy as I completed it over on LO, so they can finally update to whatever version is next. Salude e trigu, Michael And incidentally, translation *is* a technical skill - it just doesn't involve code dancing across the screen ;)
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Claudio, One reason I have tried to stay more or less muted (besides being fiendishly busy) is because this Apache effort is a true community effort. Apache is doing brilliantly ensuring that processes are kept open and within the bounds of its charter and that we all are informed of the why, where, what of things. That is good. But it also means that if we want something we have to do it, and do it within the boundaries we consensually agree with. These are not the OOo ones, though there is obviously correspondence. But it does mean that we who remain interested in a future for the gosh darn best ODF implementation and hope for a one-day-less-bloated version that could fit smug in a tablet have work to do and that means being our own leaders. Put another way: we need to find the resources to get what we want. :-) Cheers, Louis On 12 December 2011 09:05, Claudio F Filho filh...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On 10-12-2011 20:12, Louis R Suárez-Potts wrote: Regular readers of this list might recall discussions by Khirano, Rob and others about the fate of the Native Language projects in OOo. I'm not sure what the outcome was, and a quick browse of archives didn't really enlighten me, as it seems things were left hanging. +1. I'd like to see if we can resolve this issue. A recap: OOo had many native-language projects in which non-coding discussions were in the native tongue, e.g., Russian, Viet, Brazilian Portuguese, Gaelic(s), and so on. At any given moment there were about a hundred, and one can see these listed still at http://projects.openoffice.org /native-lang.html. It is true. The focus *only*(?) over code, IMHO, is a error. We have many good people that haven't idea about programming, but have good ideas about promotion, artwork, and other fronts. Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I agree with you, Louis. QA, doc and other elements where is not necessary coding skill, giving more freedom for non-tecnical people help the project. PS The majority of the NL projects reformed to constitute LibreOffice. Because of disparities of license, I suppose harmonisation of effort will be more difficult, but by no means ought it to be abandoned, if actual contributors deem it worthwhile. I dislike duplication of effort both as a project manager and as someone who then has to persuade the bewildered user that A and B are just alike but one is more equal than the other. I think that more that the license issue, we have a lot of people unhappy with the way that LibO is following, the same people that was part of NL and chose in go to LibO believing in a thing and finding other, so, i think that really have people interested in help here, but with this posture of Apache are lost, without idea where help. Maybe is time to consider better this position and find a place for this work's force. Bests, Claudio
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Michael I have pretty much ceased following the lists, as they seemed to stop following me. But I was wrong. I'll send a note to nlc, l10n and others Wednesday, informing them of the good news of their possible resurrection, even as Apaches :-) Cheers, Louis On 12 December 2011 18:36, Michael Bauer f...@akerbeltz.org wrote: Hi folks, I admit to mostly lurking but kinda feel compelled to chip in at this point. First off, I'm just a translator, I came to OO late in the day to resucitate the Scottish Gaelic localization which had fallen format. I have no coding skills, at least none at the level needed to contribute code, so I consider my skills in translation my contribution. As such, I usually have little interest in the direction projects such as OO, Mozilla w/e take, code-wise or politically, except for trying to promote translator-friendly localization processes. The impending rift and eventual split took me completely by surprise. Literally. One day I had been translating away in Pootle, the next day it was dead and it took a lot of googling to eventually figure out what had been going on. I'm just glad I had taken a backup the day before, I don't know how many nascent projects have had their entire work frozen on Pootle since. Which is why I felt a little irked by the suggestion someone made that interested NL projects could come forward. If it hadn't been for someone's blog post I came across eventually, I *still* wouldn't know that OO had shifted to Apache. I suspect very few NL projects will have come forward because for a long time it was not obvious to people not hooked into the develpment mailing lists (conjecture, mylord) that that's what happened. Apart from spam, nothing has ever been posted on the l10n list which was the only list I had subscribed to for the above reasons. So if we're supposed to step forward, perhaps someone should let the l10n list subscribers know? My main concern are the Gaelic users, however few those may be, who are still stuck on 3.01 and who know nothing of this break, apart from the fact that the extensions site has been going offline regulary. So I'd like to find some way of completing the localization - which should be relatively easy as I completed it over on LO, so they can finally update to whatever version is next. Salude e trigu, Michael And incidentally, translation *is* a technical skill - it just doesn't involve code dancing across the screen ;)
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry for top posting... But yes, I was pretty much thinking along the lines Rob sketched out modulo TJ F. I can sound out these ideas. Political as well as resource issues come to mind, but I also see this as an opportunity to do some macro collaboration with, say, other projects engaged. In both localisation and ecosystem building. And as to the developer communities: always a challenge, but I do have many years doing just this sort of thing, only now there is no shroud of suspicion palling motive. (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) Hi Louis, Something to consider, if you find interest in having such peer projects at Apache. You probably don't want to do an independent, parallel effort at IP review of the Oracle-SGA'ed contributions. That would be painful. So it might make sense to wait until we've done that all here, and then when we are ready to graduate, then we can go forward with a proposal on how we deploy as one or more TLP's. Or something like that. In general it is much easier to share already-vetted code across Apache projects, once we've done the initial review and cleanup work. -Rob -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-12-10, at 20:06, TJ Frazier tjfraz...@cfl.rr.com wrote: On 12/10/2011 19:44, Rob Weir wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:13, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:02, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Pottslo...@apache.org wrote: ... Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me *what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question, and I'd like to move on it. I can see several models that could work: All good options... You hint at another option. I'm not sure it would work, but let's list it for sake of argument: 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings. Their charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO. But they would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website, mailing lists, etc. Why do you feel this would this not work? You have many Gaelic or Vietnamese-speaking mentors? Fair point, although it is reasonable to expect that many of the people involved will be bi-lingual at least (otherwise how can they translate). Option 4 should not be ruled out (and you didn't do so), I was just wondering what the source of your reservations was. So a few other ways this doesn't quite fit a podling, as currently practiced: 1) Ability to find mentors, as mentioned above. 2) Ability of our infrastructure to handle non-ASCII collaboration. We've already seen, in our small attempt to have some Japanese NL work in this project, that Roller was not allowing Japanese text and that the SpamAssassin flags every attempted post to the Japanese language list as spam. I'd expect some work would be needed in several areas. But once done, this work would benefit others who attempt something similar. So not a bad thing to try. But I'd anticipate initial challenges of this kind. 3) Technical skills needed to produce a release. To get through the ceremony of cutting a release at Apache requires someone understand things ranging from SVN tagging to GPG signing. Translators are not coders. Their expertise is on the linguistic side. They are not command-line people. You might be lucky and have someone who can also be comfortable with these things, but it would not be guaranteed. 4) The efforts can be very small in some cases. How do you get three +1's for a release if there are only 2 people in your project? 5) Growing the community of developers is hard. Once you've translated 100% of the GUI strings, then what? Translate them again, better? And then better again? Put differently, the work of translation is finite and does not give much room for growth. However, on the other, non-release side of NL projects, the outreach to users, the website, etc., there is much room for growth. 5) This creates a quasi-umbrella project. Since translations are not usable separate from the core AOO code, these other new projects would be necessarily tied to the features and the schedule of AOO, assuming
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:28 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry for top posting... But yes, I was pretty much thinking along the lines Rob sketched out modulo TJ F. I can sound out these ideas. Political as well as resource issues come to mind, but I also see this as an opportunity to do some macro collaboration with, say, other projects engaged. In both localisation and ecosystem building. And as to the developer communities: always a challenge, but I do have many years doing just this sort of thing, only now there is no shroud of suspicion palling motive. (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) Hi Louis, Something to consider, if you find interest in having such peer projects at Apache. You probably don't want to do an independent, parallel effort at IP review of the Oracle-SGA'ed contributions. That would be painful. So it might make sense to wait until we've done that all here, and then when we are ready to graduate, then we can go forward with a proposal on how we deploy as one or more TLP's. Or something like that. In general it is much easier to share already-vetted code across Apache projects, once we've done the initial review and cleanup work. Well done Rob. An IP review is painful even once. Regards, Dave -Rob -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-12-10, at 20:06, TJ Frazier tjfraz...@cfl.rr.com wrote: On 12/10/2011 19:44, Rob Weir wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:13, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:02, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Pottslo...@apache.org wrote: ... Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me *what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question, and I'd like to move on it. I can see several models that could work: All good options... You hint at another option. I'm not sure it would work, but let's list it for sake of argument: 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings. Their charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO. But they would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website, mailing lists, etc. Why do you feel this would this not work? You have many Gaelic or Vietnamese-speaking mentors? Fair point, although it is reasonable to expect that many of the people involved will be bi-lingual at least (otherwise how can they translate). Option 4 should not be ruled out (and you didn't do so), I was just wondering what the source of your reservations was. So a few other ways this doesn't quite fit a podling, as currently practiced: 1) Ability to find mentors, as mentioned above. 2) Ability of our infrastructure to handle non-ASCII collaboration. We've already seen, in our small attempt to have some Japanese NL work in this project, that Roller was not allowing Japanese text and that the SpamAssassin flags every attempted post to the Japanese language list as spam. I'd expect some work would be needed in several areas. But once done, this work would benefit others who attempt something similar. So not a bad thing to try. But I'd anticipate initial challenges of this kind. 3) Technical skills needed to produce a release. To get through the ceremony of cutting a release at Apache requires someone understand things ranging from SVN tagging to GPG signing. Translators are not coders. Their expertise is on the linguistic side. They are not command-line people. You might be lucky and have someone who can also be comfortable with these things, but it would not be guaranteed. 4) The efforts can be very small in some cases. How do you get three +1's for a release if there are only 2 people in your project? 5) Growing the community of developers is hard. Once you've translated 100% of the GUI strings, then what? Translate them again, better? And then better again? Put differently, the work of translation is finite and does not give much room for growth. However, on the other, non-release side of NL projects, the outreach to users, the website, etc., there is much room for growth. 5) This creates a quasi-umbrella project. Since
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org wrote: Regular readers of this list might recall discussions by Khirano, Rob and others about the fate of the Native Language projects in OOo. I'm not sure what the outcome was, and a quick browse of archives didn't really enlighten me, as it seems things were left hanging. I'd like to see if we can resolve this issue. A recap: OOo had many native-language projects in which non-coding discussions were in the native tongue, e.g., Russian, Viet, Brazilian Portuguese, Gaelic(s), and so on. At any given moment there were about a hundred, and one can see these listed still at http://projects.openoffice.org/native-lang.html. These were non-coding projects but also were designed to provide a path for contributors to gain both the skills and community respect to gain more power within the project. They also served as homes for a lot of l10n work, though there was no necessary connection between one and the other. That is, there could be an l10n effort but no corresponding Native Language project, and vice versa. The projects had their shortcomings. First, I had set them up as *linguistic* projects so as to maximise the global distribution of any given language's speakers, and to minimise nationalist claims to any language, which I saw as potentially limiting. Second, the NL projects did not easily lend themselves to in-person communication, which, as we all know, is where the real community action takes place. it was therefore difficult to arrange for meetings, conferences, outreach programmes, and so on, at least coming from the NL projects, though there were, of course, signal exceptions, such as German, or French, where there was already an engaged body and commercial infrastructure. Consequently, over several OOoCons, I proposed and to a degree, put into action, a skeleton method by which there could be regional modules whose remit was to do on-the-ground community development. They would be aided by the central OOo but otherwise they were left up to their own devices. Raphael's Swiss NGO and community is the best example, but there are others. The problem here, was that there was in this instance, as in others, scant attention paid by the corporate overlord, as it did not obviously contribute to *coding* (and if it had, no doubt other problems and issues would have been discovered invalidating the effort). Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me *what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question, and I'd like to move on it. I can see several models that could work: 1. Volunteers who were previously part of native-language project become members of this Apache project and work on our lists and other infrastructure. We already have the translations under the SGA, I believe. 2. NL volunteers maintain their own external organization and infrastructure and do their primary work externally but occasionally contribute patches to this project. By adopting the Apache license in their own work they make it consumable by AOO and LO. 3. NL projects work outside of Apache, and create localized derivatives of AOO for local distribution. This could be done as a pure volunteer effort or backed by one or more business models. So long as they respect our trademark, this could be a fine choice. Patches might be contributed back to Apache. This is not required by our license, but it makes things easier for them, since they would then have less code to merge in for subsequent release of AOO. You hint at another option. I'm not sure it would work, but let's list it for sake of argument: 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings. Their charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO. But they would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website, mailing lists, etc. The above options could occur simultaneously by different NL groups, according to their interests. There is no right answer. I'm not a big fan of central planning. It is really for these communities to decide for themselves. But if any of them want to know more about Apache and how they might contribute to the AOO project, then send them along. -Rob cheers Louis PS The majority of the NL projects reformed to constitute LibreOffice. Because of disparities of license, I suppose harmonisation of effort will
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:02, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org wrote: ... Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me *what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question, and I'd like to move on it. I can see several models that could work: All good options... You hint at another option. I'm not sure it would work, but let's list it for sake of argument: 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings. Their charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO. But they would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website, mailing lists, etc. Why do you feel this would this not work? You have many Gaelic or Vietnamese-speaking mentors? Ross
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:13, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:02, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org wrote: ... Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me *what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question, and I'd like to move on it. I can see several models that could work: All good options... You hint at another option. I'm not sure it would work, but let's list it for sake of argument: 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings. Their charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO. But they would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website, mailing lists, etc. Why do you feel this would this not work? You have many Gaelic or Vietnamese-speaking mentors? Fair point, although it is reasonable to expect that many of the people involved will be bi-lingual at least (otherwise how can they translate). Option 4 should not be ruled out (and you didn't do so), I was just wondering what the source of your reservations was. So a few other ways this doesn't quite fit a podling, as currently practiced: 1) Ability to find mentors, as mentioned above. 2) Ability of our infrastructure to handle non-ASCII collaboration. We've already seen, in our small attempt to have some Japanese NL work in this project, that Roller was not allowing Japanese text and that the SpamAssassin flags every attempted post to the Japanese language list as spam. I'd expect some work would be needed in several areas. But once done, this work would benefit others who attempt something similar. So not a bad thing to try. But I'd anticipate initial challenges of this kind. 3) Technical skills needed to produce a release. To get through the ceremony of cutting a release at Apache requires someone understand things ranging from SVN tagging to GPG signing. Translators are not coders. Their expertise is on the linguistic side. They are not command-line people. You might be lucky and have someone who can also be comfortable with these things, but it would not be guaranteed. 4) The efforts can be very small in some cases. How do you get three +1's for a release if there are only 2 people in your project? 5) Growing the community of developers is hard. Once you've translated 100% of the GUI strings, then what? Translate them again, better? And then better again? Put differently, the work of translation is finite and does not give much room for growth. However, on the other, non-release side of NL projects, the outreach to users, the website, etc., there is much room for growth. 5) This creates a quasi-umbrella project. Since translations are not usable separate from the core AOO code, these other new projects would be necessarily tied to the features and the schedule of AOO, assuming they are not forking the code itself. I've heard general unease with umbrella projects at Apache. But if we are willing to dream, you could imagine a kind of umbrella project, not of code modules, but of user-facing interactions, where autonomous groups within Apache maintained localized user-facing pages, wikis, user lists, support forums, etc. TLP might be too heavy weight for this, since we have potentially many dozens of these, and their releases would consist of translated strings that are only useful when installed with AOO. The non-release activities of the project would clearly be their focus. So this is something I don't think we've seen at Apache in a TLP. (We see them in foundation projects, but this is not that). Rather than squeeze it into an existing mold, maybe it needs a new something? -Rov Ross -- Ross Gardler (@rgardler) Programme Leader (Open Development) OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 12/10/2011 19:44, Rob Weir wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:13, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:02, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Pottslo...@apache.org wrote: ... Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me *what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question, and I'd like to move on it. I can see several models that could work: All good options... You hint at another option. I'm not sure it would work, but let's list it for sake of argument: 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings. Their charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO. But they would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website, mailing lists, etc. Why do you feel this would this not work? You have many Gaelic or Vietnamese-speaking mentors? Fair point, although it is reasonable to expect that many of the people involved will be bi-lingual at least (otherwise how can they translate). Option 4 should not be ruled out (and you didn't do so), I was just wondering what the source of your reservations was. So a few other ways this doesn't quite fit a podling, as currently practiced: 1) Ability to find mentors, as mentioned above. 2) Ability of our infrastructure to handle non-ASCII collaboration. We've already seen, in our small attempt to have some Japanese NL work in this project, that Roller was not allowing Japanese text and that the SpamAssassin flags every attempted post to the Japanese language list as spam. I'd expect some work would be needed in several areas. But once done, this work would benefit others who attempt something similar. So not a bad thing to try. But I'd anticipate initial challenges of this kind. 3) Technical skills needed to produce a release. To get through the ceremony of cutting a release at Apache requires someone understand things ranging from SVN tagging to GPG signing. Translators are not coders. Their expertise is on the linguistic side. They are not command-line people. You might be lucky and have someone who can also be comfortable with these things, but it would not be guaranteed. 4) The efforts can be very small in some cases. How do you get three +1's for a release if there are only 2 people in your project? 5) Growing the community of developers is hard. Once you've translated 100% of the GUI strings, then what? Translate them again, better? And then better again? Put differently, the work of translation is finite and does not give much room for growth. However, on the other, non-release side of NL projects, the outreach to users, the website, etc., there is much room for growth. 5) This creates a quasi-umbrella project. Since translations are not usable separate from the core AOO code, these other new projects would be necessarily tied to the features and the schedule of AOO, assuming they are not forking the code itself. I've heard general unease with umbrella projects at Apache. But if we are willing to dream, you could imagine a kind of umbrella project, not of code modules, but of user-facing interactions, where autonomous groups within Apache maintained localized user-facing pages, wikis, user lists, support forums, etc. TLP might be too heavy weight for this, since we have potentially many dozens of these, and their releases would consist of translated strings that are only useful when installed with AOO. The non-release activities of the project would clearly be their focus. So this is something I don't think we've seen at Apache in a TLP. (We see them in foundation projects, but this is not that). Rather than squeeze it into an existing mold, maybe it needs a new something? -Rov Ross Idea? Some of the problems would be minimized if the Native Language Confederation (NLC) as a whole became a project. Perhaps Louis could sound out some folks on this? -- /tj/
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Sorry for top posting... But yes, I was pretty much thinking along the lines Rob sketched out modulo TJ F. I can sound out these ideas. Political as well as resource issues come to mind, but I also see this as an opportunity to do some macro collaboration with, say, other projects engaged. In both localisation and ecosystem building. And as to the developer communities: always a challenge, but I do have many years doing just this sort of thing, only now there is no shroud of suspicion palling motive. (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-12-10, at 20:06, TJ Frazier tjfraz...@cfl.rr.com wrote: On 12/10/2011 19:44, Rob Weir wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:13, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:02, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Pottslo...@apache.org wrote: ... Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me *what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question, and I'd like to move on it. I can see several models that could work: All good options... You hint at another option. I'm not sure it would work, but let's list it for sake of argument: 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings. Their charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO. But they would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website, mailing lists, etc. Why do you feel this would this not work? You have many Gaelic or Vietnamese-speaking mentors? Fair point, although it is reasonable to expect that many of the people involved will be bi-lingual at least (otherwise how can they translate). Option 4 should not be ruled out (and you didn't do so), I was just wondering what the source of your reservations was. So a few other ways this doesn't quite fit a podling, as currently practiced: 1) Ability to find mentors, as mentioned above. 2) Ability of our infrastructure to handle non-ASCII collaboration. We've already seen, in our small attempt to have some Japanese NL work in this project, that Roller was not allowing Japanese text and that the SpamAssassin flags every attempted post to the Japanese language list as spam. I'd expect some work would be needed in several areas. But once done, this work would benefit others who attempt something similar. So not a bad thing to try. But I'd anticipate initial challenges of this kind. 3) Technical skills needed to produce a release. To get through the ceremony of cutting a release at Apache requires someone understand things ranging from SVN tagging to GPG signing. Translators are not coders. Their expertise is on the linguistic side. They are not command-line people. You might be lucky and have someone who can also be comfortable with these things, but it would not be guaranteed. 4) The efforts can be very small in some cases. How do you get three +1's for a release if there are only 2 people in your project? 5) Growing the community of developers is hard. Once you've translated 100% of the GUI strings, then what? Translate them again, better? And then better again? Put differently, the work of translation is finite and does not give much room for growth. However, on the other, non-release side of NL projects, the outreach to users, the website, etc., there is much room for growth. 5) This creates a quasi-umbrella project. Since translations are not usable separate from the core AOO code, these other new projects would be necessarily tied to the features and the schedule of AOO, assuming they are not forking the code itself. I've heard general unease with umbrella projects at Apache. But if we are willing to dream, you could imagine a kind of umbrella project, not of code modules, but of user-facing interactions, where autonomous groups within Apache maintained localized user-facing pages, wikis, user lists, support forums, etc. TLP might be too heavy weight for this, since we have potentially many dozens of these, and their releases would consist of translated strings that are only useful when installed with AOO. The non-release activities of the project would clearly be their focus. So this is something I
