Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[David Brodbeck]

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Gary  wrote:

> But there's an enormous, tedious history of butthurt when it comes
> to "giving back" to a BSD project. There's more than ten years of whining
> about OS X. and several more about OpenBSD, OpenSSH, etc. The reality is
> that these projects can get bent out of shape and demand support but
> there's no recourse.
>

Yes, and you don't have to read the mailing lists long to realize that some
of the "butthurt" goes the other way.  Some of those projects are
notoriously hard to contribute to if you're not already part of the inner
circle.  The *BSDs OS's, in particular, are known for being hostile to
outside contributors.

-- 
David Brodbeck
System Administrator, Linguistics
University of Washington
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Jan Owoc wrote:


I don't think the drive's model number or revision will change with a
system update. I don't know whether it detects sector size or simply
uses ashift=12 always (using 4k data sectors on a 512b drive doesn't
exactly have downsides). Either way it shouldn't require any manual


There is a downside to using 4k sectors on 512b drives.  Quite a lot 
more space may be wasted because zfs's smallest consumed data size 
(e.g. for metadata) is one sector.  At least two copies are made of 
any metadata.  If you use smaller zfs blocks (than the default 128k) 
and/or a large number of files, you will be wondering what happened to 
your disk space.


For huge drives this is not much of an issue.  It is definitely an 
issue for SSDs, which usually offer much less space per drive.


Bob
--
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Bryan N Iotti]

Folks,

I got on board the OI boat seriously back in April. I love it. It has 
pushed me to learn a lot about Solaris as an OS and certain technologies 
(like SAS, SCSI) that probably wouldn't have had a place on the Mac I sold.


I want to work with it and use it in solutions I propose to Vet clinics 
and the like.


I am not a programmer (I do some basic Ruby and shell scripting), so I 
wouldn't really know how to help with code, but I'd like to help with 
the website and wiki.


Can I help, and if so, how do I get started?

Bryan


On 09/ 5/12 05:21 AM, Jan Owoc wrote:

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Magnus  wrote:

On Sep 4, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

I expect that this became available in oi_151a_prestable5 (however, 
oi_151a_prestable6 is out today!).

I'm looking at http://dlc.openindiana.org/isos/ and it looks like 151a5 is the 
latest available to the public right now.

"oi_151a_prestable6 AKA oi_151a6 is a bug and security fix release.
This is not an ISO release." [1]
Making an ISO image takes time, so tends to happen every 2-3 releases.
You need to install prestable5 and then upgrade.

[1] http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/oi_151a_prestable6+Release+Notes



Does this require the end user to do anything special, or should it "just work" 
when installing OI? Right now some other Illumos distros are not handling these drives 
well at all yet. My drive is coming up as WDC WD2002FAEX-0 revision 1D05.

I don't think the drive's model number or revision will change with a
system update. I don't know whether it detects sector size or simply
uses ashift=12 always (using 4k data sectors on a 512b drive doesn't
exactly have downsides). Either way it shouldn't require any manual
user intervention.

Some drives "behave" by reporting 4k sectors (not sure about yours
specifically), and then even OI 151a (what I used) created a pool with
ashift=12 when needed.


root@openindiana:~# zdb -C rpool | grep ashift
 ashift: 9
root@openindiana:~# zdb -C tankz2 | grep ashift
 ashift: 12
root@openindiana:~# uname -a
SunOS openindiana 5.11 oi_151a4 i86pc i386 i86pc Solaris


Jan

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Jan Owoc]

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Magnus  wrote:
>
> On Sep 4, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>>
>> I expect that this became available in oi_151a_prestable5 (however, 
>> oi_151a_prestable6 is out today!).
>
> I'm looking at http://dlc.openindiana.org/isos/ and it looks like 151a5 is 
> the latest available to the public right now.

"oi_151a_prestable6 AKA oi_151a6 is a bug and security fix release.
This is not an ISO release." [1]
Making an ISO image takes time, so tends to happen every 2-3 releases.
You need to install prestable5 and then upgrade.

[1] http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/oi_151a_prestable6+Release+Notes


> Does this require the end user to do anything special, or should it "just 
> work" when installing OI? Right now some other Illumos distros are not 
> handling these drives well at all yet. My drive is coming up as WDC 
> WD2002FAEX-0 revision 1D05.

I don't think the drive's model number or revision will change with a
system update. I don't know whether it detects sector size or simply
uses ashift=12 always (using 4k data sectors on a 512b drive doesn't
exactly have downsides). Either way it shouldn't require any manual
user intervention.

Some drives "behave" by reporting 4k sectors (not sure about yours
specifically), and then even OI 151a (what I used) created a pool with
ashift=12 when needed.


root@openindiana:~# zdb -C rpool | grep ashift
ashift: 9
root@openindiana:~# zdb -C tankz2 | grep ashift
ashift: 12
root@openindiana:~# uname -a
SunOS openindiana 5.11 oi_151a4 i86pc i386 i86pc Solaris


Jan

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Magnus]

On Sep 4, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> 
> I expect that this became available in oi_151a_prestable5 (however, 
> oi_151a_prestable6 is out today!).

Hi Bob,

I'm looking at http://dlc.openindiana.org/isos/ and it looks like 151a5 is the 
latest available to the public right now. Does this require the end user to do 
anything special, or should it "just work" when installing OI? Right now some 
other Illumos distros are not handling these drives well at all yet. My drive 
is coming up as WDC WD2002FAEX-0 revision 1D05.

Thanks,
Magnus
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, mag...@yonderway.com wrote:

On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 10:53:10 -0500 (CDT), Bob Friesenhahn
 wrote:


I am unware of 4K sector disk "issues" in Illumos.


http://wiki.openindiana.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4883847


Most significantly, the issue was RESOLVED four months ago. 
Unfortunately, George Wilson did not update the bug entry correctly so 
it is still shown as 0% done even though the issue was resolved.  I 
expect that this became available in oi_151a_prestable5 (however, 
oi_151a_prestable6 is out today!).


Bob
--
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bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[magnus]

On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 10:53:10 -0500 (CDT), Bob Friesenhahn
 wrote:

> I am unware of 4K sector disk "issues" in Illumos.

http://wiki.openindiana.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4883847

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Jonathan Adams]

On 4 September 2012 16:53, Bob Friesenhahn  wrote:
>
> I am unware of 4K sector disk "issues" in Illumos.

Then you are very lucky/don't use EARS drives.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[James Relph]

That will require a better groomed Netatalk package & SMF manifest. Right
  now that's a slightly messy thing to set up.
  
This to some extent goes back to something I've been talking about recently.  
The current version of netatalk (v3) is actually excellent on OI.  NetAFP added 
cross-protocol file locking with the native CIFS client and netatalk will use 
ZFS xattrs to store Mac xattrs.The actual problem has turned out to be the 
Windows integration, because it's either:


-Modify the AD schema or use IDMU (making changes to AD is really not 
popular in a lot of Windows environments)
-Use ephemeral UIDs


NetAFP managed to get ephemeral UIDs working with netatalk, but then they saw 
an ephemeral UID change while a user was logged in (from the existing 
documentation that seems possible - but there appears to be no actual 
definitive documentation stating either way - which is another problem in 
itself).  This changing UID broke netatalk quite badly.


>From my point of view both Mac OS X and Linux have far better methods for 
>integrating with Active Directory (without making changes to AD) - and the 
>lack of that in OI is a big turn-off for a lot of Windows admins.  OI with 
>netatalk is an awesome AFP server, but for ease-of-deployment the AD 
>integration is a big hurdle, and I think that really needs looking at because 
>AD is so common it's too big to be ignored (which is why Apple spent so much 
>time with the AD plugin for OS X - which is frighteningly easy to setup).


James.  
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, mag...@yonderway.com wrote:



That would leave just a good HCL as an obstacle to wider use of OI.


The issues with modern/pervasive 4K sector disks on Illumos may also stifle
adoption.


I am unware of 4K sector disk "issues" in Illumos.

Bob
--
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bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Open Indiana]

+1 

Maybe 1 dedicated ISO build to be installed on the HP Microserver which has 
pre-installed:
1. napp-it (creating networkshares and manage Harddisks at ease)
2. SMTP/POP3 servers with smart configuration scripts so a user can create a 
mailserver at ease
3. CUPS scripts for printer sharing

If you take the HP microserver and stick 4x 1 TB drives and 2x2 GB in it, you 
have a great performing small office appliance for less than € 800,-

This way you will create a worldwide rumor about a new and lightning fast OS. 
It will attract new (business) users.

After this more basic ISO's can be developed for other hardware. OI runs 
out-of-the box on the Microserver hardware. 

I own a HP Microserver and it performs extremely well. It is used as a 
newsgroup reader, NFS server, Windows user-profile storage, mailserver, 
printerserver and more. 



-Original Message-
From: Reginald Beardsley [mailto:pulask...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: dinsdag 4 september 2012 17:02
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

Is it really necessary to convince the freeNAS people to change?

Mark Creamer's response to the thread, "Multiple Windows servers and a OI NAS, 
how to get there" seems to point to a simpler solution.

Offer as an install time option a configuration of OI w/ ZFS as a file server 
in a mixed MacOS, Windows & *nix environment. 

That as an "out of box" packaged solution ought to generate a good bit of 
interest in OI/Illumos.  I don't do Windows, but from what I understand, 
everything is already available if you know how to configure it.

That would leave just a good HCL as an obstacle to wider use of OI.  Some 
judicious choices of new SATA & SAS drivers would ease much of the hardware 
problems.  Some visible momentum would help persuade hardware vendors to 
support the development of drivers for OI/Illumos.

Have Fun!
Reg

--- On Tue, 9/4/12, Robin Axelsson  wrote:

> From: Robin Axelsson 
> Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"
> To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
> Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2012, 9:13 AM I certainly hope you are 
> right. But I also hope you are aware of survival bias that may "color"
> your past experiences. It is very easy to look at the successful 
> projects that have managed to survive over the years in retrospect 
> while forgetting about those project that died and fell into oblivion.
> 
> I guess it should come to no surprise that most people who use open 
> source software don't care. Probably the vast majority don't know 
> about Alasdair Lumsden's resignation, let alone that he exists. That's 
> why one should take into consideration that for every 100 or so new 
> users 2-5 of them may eventually start contributing and developing for 
> Illumos. I think incentives such as career opportunities and other 
> things that make Illumos and OpenIndiana look "cool"
> should be important to stress.
> 
> Perhaps it would be possible to convince the freeNAS people to use 
> Illumos/OpenIndana instead.
> 
> On 2012-09-01 16:48, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> > On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:
> >> 
> >> I'm fully aware of the power of the command line
> and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes 
> (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and 
> easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe 
> to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way 
> OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most 
> importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old 
> adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. But it 
> must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less 
> versed person will understand how good it is.
> > 
> > Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart
> before the horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build 
> everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration 
> GUI.  OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and 
> having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to 
> sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from 
> people who already preferred Solaris.
> > 
> > OpenIndiana is still very young.  Successful OS
> distributions take quite a few years to become significant.  It is not 
> something which happens in just a couple of years.
> > 
> > Bob
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[magnus]

On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 08:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Reginald Beardsley
 wrote:

> Offer as an install time option a configuration of OI w/ ZFS as a file
> server in a mixed MacOS, Windows & *nix environment. 

That will require a better groomed Netatalk package & SMF manifest. Right
now that's a slightly messy thing to set up.

Administration right now between NFS, SMB, AFP requires a mix of command
line expertise. To be at all competitive with FreeNAS would demand some
consideration of a management interface.

> That as an "out of box" packaged solution ought to generate a good bit of
> interest in OI/Illumos.  I don't do Windows, but from what I understand,
> everything is already available if you know how to configure it.

Most of the file sharing goodies come free with ZFS, except for AFP (would
make a dandy ZFS feature, though!)

> That would leave just a good HCL as an obstacle to wider use of OI. 

The issues with modern/pervasive 4K sector disks on Illumos may also stifle
adoption.



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Reginald Beardsley]

Is it really necessary to convince the freeNAS people to change?

Mark Creamer's response to the thread, "Multiple Windows servers and a OI NAS, 
how to get there" seems to point to a simpler solution.

Offer as an install time option a configuration of OI w/ ZFS as a file server 
in a mixed MacOS, Windows & *nix environment. 

That as an "out of box" packaged solution ought to generate a good bit of 
interest in OI/Illumos.  I don't do Windows, but from what I understand, 
everything is already available if you know how to configure it.

That would leave just a good HCL as an obstacle to wider use of OI.  Some 
judicious choices of new SATA & SAS drivers would ease much of the hardware 
problems.  Some visible momentum would help persuade hardware vendors to 
support the development of drivers for OI/Illumos.

Have Fun!
Reg

--- On Tue, 9/4/12, Robin Axelsson  wrote:

> From: Robin Axelsson 
> Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"
> To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
> Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2012, 9:13 AM
> I certainly hope you are right. But I
> also hope you are aware of survival bias that may "color"
> your past experiences. It is very easy to look at the
> successful projects that have managed to survive over the
> years in retrospect while forgetting about those project
> that died and fell into oblivion.
> 
> I guess it should come to no surprise that most people who
> use open source software don't care. Probably the vast
> majority don't know about Alasdair Lumsden's resignation,
> let alone that he exists. That's why one should take into
> consideration that for every 100 or so new users 2-5 of them
> may eventually start contributing and developing for
> Illumos. I think incentives such as career opportunities and
> other things that make Illumos and OpenIndiana look "cool"
> should be important to stress.
> 
> Perhaps it would be possible to convince the freeNAS people
> to use Illumos/OpenIndana instead.
> 
> On 2012-09-01 16:48, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> > On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:
> >> 
> >> I'm fully aware of the power of the command line
> and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix
> based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look
> well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin
> GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a
> home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI
> would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and
> most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some
> extent the old adage "A good product markets itself" has
> some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to
> /look/ good so that even a less versed person will
> understand how good it is.
> > 
> > Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart
> before the horse.  It is more important to be able to
> easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have
> a fancy configuration GUI.  OI popularity should come
> second to correct functionality and having an organization
> (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI
> is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people
> who already preferred Solaris.
> > 
> > OpenIndiana is still very young.  Successful OS
> distributions take quite a few years to become
> significant.  It is not something which happens in just
> a couple of years.
> > 
> > Bob
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Robin Axelsson]

I certainly hope you are right. But I also hope you are aware of 
survival bias that may "color" your past experiences. It is very easy to 
look at the successful projects that have managed to survive over the 
years in retrospect while forgetting about those project that died and 
fell into oblivion.


I guess it should come to no surprise that most people who use open 
source software don't care. Probably the vast majority don't know about 
Alasdair Lumsden's resignation, let alone that he exists. That's why one 
should take into consideration that for every 100 or so new users 2-5 of 
them may eventually start contributing and developing for Illumos. I 
think incentives such as career opportunities and other things that make 
Illumos and OpenIndiana look "cool" should be important to stress.


Perhaps it would be possible to convince the freeNAS people to use 
Illumos/OpenIndana instead.


On 2012-09-01 16:48, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:


I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the 
command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including 
Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to 
administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use 
it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI 
would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most 
importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old 
adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. But it 
must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less 
versed person will understand how good it is.


Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the 
horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build everything and 
incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI.  OI 
popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an 
organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If 
OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who 
already preferred Solaris.


OpenIndiana is still very young.  Successful OS distributions take 
quite a few years to become significant.  It is not something which 
happens in just a couple of years.


Bob




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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns" - next steps

[David Halko]

See comments below, in-line.


> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 11:29:48 +0200
> From: "Open Indiana" 
> To: "'Discussion list for OpenIndiana'"
>         
> Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden
> resigns"
> Message-ID: <001a01cd88ed$7f8ebce0$7eac36a0$@nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"
>
> I guess i sparked this discussion about the GUI. Not that I want a GUI, but
> if you read the comments on Alasdair Lumsden resign then most people that
> call OI "a stupid OS" are the people that only use a GUI to do things. ;-)
>
> But based on the number of reactions on this subject I fear that there a
> just a very few OI users. Or the rest must have been sleeping the last
> days.
>
>
> So I would suggest that we start some kind of voting/.. somewhere on the
> internet. Maybe in this mailgroup or on the OI website.
> I suggest the following questions:
> 1. Who wants to help develop OI?


I would be interested.


> 2. What skills do you (the voter) have that can help OI?
>

Documentation, Web Upkeep, How-To's, Scripting, Packaging


> 3. What kind of software do you want to have running on OI?
>

Nothing, Can't get OI to run on any hardware available to me.


> 4. What kind of hardware/drivers do you want to have running on OI?
>

V100, V120, V240, UltraSPARC 60, an Intel laptop.


> 5. Have you ever created a "HOWTO" for OI? If "YES" where is it?
>

As soon as I can find a load which works, I can start.


> 6. Have you ever found a useful "HOWTO" for OI? If "YES" where is it?
>

No.


> 7. Have you ever created a useful "software package" for OI? If "YES" where
> is it?
>

No. Only created large software systems under Solaris 10 for internal
facing user communities


> 8. Do you use OI in a commercial environment?
>

I would if OI would run under UltraSPARC systems. There is a market for OI,
if it keeps Solaris 10 software compatibility. Especially if OI will run
under an LDOM, since Oracle will not be moving Solaris 10 forward and
various ISV's are showing disinterest in supporting Solaris 11 due to the
high-barrier to entry (all new hardware of every kind in the Oracle product
suite.) OI just has to look like Solaris 10 and get new features to remain
relevant.


> 9. 
>
> There must be more useful questions that I forget. But if we start to
> gather
> the above information we already have more (centralized) than we have right
> now.
>

How about:

9. Does OI need to concentrate on being a hypervisor? Run which operating
systems?

Yes, run Solaris 9, Solaris 10, Windows, Various Linux, maybe other SVR4
operating systems on other architectures.

10. What features would make OI compelling?

- Shared-nothing clustered ZFS fileyststem with Lustre or some other
clustering technology.
- Solaris 10 Compatibility, to woo ISV's who refuse to develop for Solaris
11.
- Development track which is disjoint from Solaris, concentrate on moving
SVR4 packaging forward, so previous development resources are not wasted on
fixing IPS bugs/incompatibilities, making possible future source code
releases (how ever unlikely that is) able to easily integrate, and making
it easier to integrate OI developments upstream.
- Leverage a simple, already existing, well defined management environment
like FMLI, so one group can create CUI management interfaces, and another
group of individuals can create port FMLI (XFMLI [again], WebFMLI, AJAX
like interfaces, etc.) so all short term work can be later leveraged.

Conclusions:

An OS is useless unless there is a market for it and it fulfills a market
need. Someone needs to decide what the market is, who the customers are
(i.e. user community), what other market elements it facilitates (i.e.
software vendors), who will pay for it (i.e. funding source), and what the
roadmap is to make it more relevant in the future to ever expanding groups
of consumers (i.e. any market that is not expanding is contracting - new
markets must always be courted and not denied.)

Thanks, David
http://svr4.blogspot.com/
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Dmitry Kozhinov]

Michael Stapleton wrote:

> The future of OI is on the server, and it should have a usable 
GUIinterface.
> But in my opinion, trying to support every Desktop application is a 
bit futile.


Exactly.
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Dmitry Kozhinov]

Open Indiana wrote:

> It's not that OI doesn't have to have a GUI, it's only that not all 
settings

> have to be set OVER a GUI.
> Of course it needs a decent GUI, but that doesn't imply that you can
> change/alter anything without getting deeper and into the commandline.

Totally agreed. Though I am advocating GUI, I always can use commandline 
where needed.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Dmitry Kozhinov]

Open Indiana wrote:

> I guess i sparked this discussion about the GUI.

Thanks for that. I cannot ignore GUI discussion.

> most people that call OI "a stupid OS" are the people that only use a 
GUI to do things. ;-)


+1 :)))

> 1. Who wants to help develop OI?

I want. But unfortunately I do not have time nor skills. Answering only 
to reflect (common?) sad situation.


> 2. What skills do you (the voter) have that can help OI?

Development for Windows skills. Doubt it can help.

> 3. What kind of software do you want to have running on OI?

Apache - already running.
vsftpd - running on my server, though installed from 3rd party repository.
Lazarus - dreaming to try, but have no time/skills to install it on one 
of my OpenIndiana machines.


> 4. What kind of hardware/drivers do you want to have running on OI?

None currently, besides those which are already running. Hardware? 
Network cards.
But when I will change my server hardware... I afraid I will need more 
drivers.


> 5. Have you ever created a "HOWTO" for OI? If "YES" where is it?

Have collected some other's HOWTO for personal use.

> 6. Have you ever found a useful "HOWTO" for OI? If "YES" where is it?

Yes. E.g. how to setup a static IP address. Cannot remember the source. 
Storing on my PC.


> 7. Have you ever created a useful "software package" for OI? If "YES" 
where is it?


I wish I could...

> 8. Do you use OI in a commercial environment?

Production environment (web server). Not commercial though.
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Dmitry Kozhinov]

> Secondly I find it incredibly hard to start developing things on the 
operating system.


I may be irrelevant here, but there are rapid application development 
tools in modern computing world. One of them could be packaged for 
OpenIndiana. I am talking about Lazarus - a RAD environment for Free 
Pascal compiler. Having Lazarus for OpenIndiana would provide an 
easy-to-follow path for Windows developers who want to develop for UNIX. 
See http://lazarus.freepascal.org/ and 
http://wiki.freepascal.org/Lazarus_on_Solaris .


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Dmitry Kozhinov]

> But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer
> web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a
> home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing.

It is not have to be fancy, but GUI is absolutely necessary. Well, I am 
an average-Joe in UNIX world (development for Windows is another story), 
but I am administering a small university web server. I was trying 
different kinds of sever operating systems, and all were disappointing 
for me for various reasons. Quite quickly I came to OpenSolaris (there 
were times of 2008.05 version). It was *love at first boot*. I saw that 
marketing phrase later and wondered how apt it is. That "feel" was not 
only because of solid performance which inspires confidence, but also 
because of GUI. Now I am a happy user of OpenIndiana.


OpenIndiana does not have to compete with OS X or Windows in desktop 
market. But it *should* have a decent GUI even for server market. I am 
an average-Joe, remember? You want me to use vi and all those tambourine 
dances? No, thanks. GUI was once invented to make OS interaction easier. 
Ditching it leads us back to medieval ages. This is why e.g. Illumian 
distribution was not a success.




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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Michael Stapleton]

That is the right way to do it, but it will be a big challenge.

I have always though it a little crazy that we still store most of the
configuration data of a server on the server.
I don't know what Oracles plans are for Solaris, but bit by bit they are
moving all the service configuration in to SMF. Once this is done, they
could move SMF into LDAP.
The configuration data for all the servers would be centralized and
protected. Servers would just need a local cached copy for boot
strapping.
For applications that do not store configuration in SMF, there could be
some kind of LDAPfs. Configuration files and directories could be
mounted on LDAP.

just me rambling on :-)

Mike


On Sun, 2012-09-02 at 12:20 -0400, Magnus wrote:

> On Sep 2, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Michael Stapleton wrote:
> 
> > Would not webmin be a good fit? Develop good modules for webmin to
> > manage OI with.
> 
> Webmin is the past.
> 
> Management API's are the future. SmartOS is doing some compelling things in 
> this sphere that are worth looking at.
> 
> With a management API on every system, bolting a web interface to it to 
> manage one or many systems becomes a much more manageable objective. Or, 
> better still, do away with the ad hoc administration and use a state 
> management engine like chef, puppet, cfengine, etc.
> 
> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Michael Stapleton]

I have been developing a virtualization product that runs on OI, It's
written in Java but uses ZFS and Comstar so the server side has to be
Iluminos/Solaris11 based.
For me, development and testing has been much more efficient by running
OI on my workstations and laptops.
When I'm traveling, I can still build and test because my laptop is
running OI. I could use VMs for testing, but rather not if I don't have
to.
The fact that OI is usable as a workstation has been great and I would
not be happy to see it go away. If it does, I will likely have to switch
to Solaris 11 to "Build and test" my software.

Microsoft owns the desktop market because it owns the desktop market.
Uses run Windows because the programs they need run on Windows.
Developers develop for windows because the Users are running Windows.
Hardware vendors write drivers for Windows because the computers are
running Windows.
It does not matter how great of a desktop OI is, it will never break the
Windows cycle.

The real threat to Windows is cloud services. The Microsoft "Lock in"
might be broken when the applications Users use no longer depend on the
desktop OS, But when that happens it also will mean that the great
services OI provides will be irrelevant on a desktop.

If there is one niche market I can see for OI as a desktop, it is in
Trusted Extensions.

The future of OI is on the server, and it should have a usable GUI
interface. 
But in my opinion, trying to support every Desktop application is a bit
futile.



Mike

On Sun, 2012-09-02 at 10:52 -0400, Gary Gendel wrote:

> On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
> > On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> >> On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the 
> >>> command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including 
> >>> Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to 
> >>> administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use 
> >>> it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI 
> >>> would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most 
> >>> importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old 
> >>> adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. But it 
> >>> must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less 
> >>> versed person will understand how good it is.
> >>
> >> Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the 
> >> horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build everything 
> >> and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI 
> >> popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an 
> >> organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If 
> >> OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who 
> >> already preferred Solaris.
> >
> > +1. Precisely.
> >
> I totally agree.  However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and 
> window manager on my server.  I personally would prefer a simple window 
> manager over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to 
> go with these.
> 
> I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every 
> Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test 
> sitting in the home office on the opposite coast.  Our clients still 
> have a large investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this 
> builds and runs on a Solaris variant.  Some of the apps can launch 
> external programs, so it determines whether it should use gnome-open, 
> etc. to choose the appropriate application.
> 
> I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and 
> test it on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out 
> to the build farm broken and make everyone unhappy.
> 
> I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services 
> on an old V20z.  I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which 
> stores mail for each user  With all of this, I seldomly tax it's 
> resources.  I do, however use this to build and test to make sure that 
> it properly compiles and runs my applications.  This has saved me 
> countless of re-spins do to compiler or library issues. Without 
> X-windows and some WM, I would no longer be able to use this machine 
> that way and would have to take the hit for breaking Solaris builds.
> 
> I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc 
> efforts.  However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive 
> broken.  It also has that funky PXE graphics card.  I got around the NIC 
> by putting a fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked 
> up a replacement DVD drive.  I was hoping to not only use it for 
> testing, but to use it to help the SPARC OI efforts but it still 
> requires X-windows and WM to be useful for me.
> 
> I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product 
> development.
> 
> Gary
> 
> 

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Gary Gendel]

This assumes that there will never be remote user access (vnc, etc.) to 
do development work that uses a GUI interface.  So you can't have SunRay 
type capabilities or even do simple things like web page development on 
that box (without gimp or some other graphics capability).  Basically 
all development would require a non-illumos box.  I currently can do 
this with VNC using my tablet or laptop which has saved my tail a number 
of times when I'm on the road since I'm not allowed to have proprietary 
data with me when I travel.


On 9/2/12 11:47 AM, Michael Stapleton wrote:

Would not webmin be a good fit? Develop good modules for webmin to
manage OI with.

Mike

On Sun, 2012-09-02 at 17:02 +0200, Open Indiana wrote:


It's not that OI doesn't have to have a GUI, it's only that not all settings
have to be set OVER a GUI.
Of course it needs a decent GUI, but that doesn't imply that you can
change/alter anything without getting deeper and into the commandline.



-Original Message-
From: Gary Gendel [mailto:g...@genashor.com]
Sent: zondag 2 september 2012 16:53
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden
resigns"

On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:

On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:

I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the
command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including
Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to
administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use
it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI
would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most
importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old
adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. But it
must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less
versed person will understand how good it is.

Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the
horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build everything
and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI
popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an
organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If
OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who
already preferred Solaris.

+1. Precisely.


I totally agree.  However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and window
manager on my server.  I personally would prefer a simple window manager
over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to go with
these.

I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every
Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test sitting
in the home office on the opposite coast.  Our clients still have a large
investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this builds and runs on
a Solaris variant.  Some of the apps can launch external programs, so it
determines whether it should use gnome-open, etc. to choose the appropriate
application.

I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and test it
on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out to the build
farm broken and make everyone unhappy.

I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services on
an old V20z.  I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which stores mail
for each user  With all of this, I seldomly tax it's resources.  I do,
however use this to build and test to make sure that it properly compiles
and runs my applications.  This has saved me countless of re-spins do to
compiler or library issues. Without X-windows and some WM, I would no longer
be able to use this machine that way and would have to take the hit for
breaking Solaris builds.

I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc efforts.
However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive broken.  It also
has that funky PXE graphics card.  I got around the NIC by putting a
fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked up a replacement
DVD drive.  I was hoping to not only use it for testing, but to use it to
help the SPARC OI efforts but it still requires X-windows and WM to be
useful for me.

I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product
development.

Gary



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Magnus]

On Sep 2, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Michael Stapleton wrote:

> Would not webmin be a good fit? Develop good modules for webmin to
> manage OI with.

Webmin is the past.

Management API's are the future. SmartOS is doing some compelling things in 
this sphere that are worth looking at.

With a management API on every system, bolting a web interface to it to manage 
one or many systems becomes a much more manageable objective. Or, better still, 
do away with the ad hoc administration and use a state management engine like 
chef, puppet, cfengine, etc.


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Michael Stapleton]

Would not webmin be a good fit? Develop good modules for webmin to
manage OI with.

Mike

On Sun, 2012-09-02 at 17:02 +0200, Open Indiana wrote:

> It's not that OI doesn't have to have a GUI, it's only that not all settings
> have to be set OVER a GUI. 
> Of course it needs a decent GUI, but that doesn't imply that you can
> change/alter anything without getting deeper and into the commandline. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Gary Gendel [mailto:g...@genashor.com] 
> Sent: zondag 2 september 2012 16:53
> To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
> Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden
> resigns"
> 
> On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
> > On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> >> On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the 
> >>> command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including 
> >>> Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to 
> >>> administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use 
> >>> it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI 
> >>> would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most 
> >>> importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old 
> >>> adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. But it 
> >>> must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less 
> >>> versed person will understand how good it is.
> >>
> >> Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the 
> >> horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build everything 
> >> and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI 
> >> popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an 
> >> organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If 
> >> OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who 
> >> already preferred Solaris.
> >
> > +1. Precisely.
> >
> I totally agree.  However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and window
> manager on my server.  I personally would prefer a simple window manager
> over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to go with
> these.
> 
> I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every
> Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test sitting
> in the home office on the opposite coast.  Our clients still have a large
> investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this builds and runs on
> a Solaris variant.  Some of the apps can launch external programs, so it
> determines whether it should use gnome-open, etc. to choose the appropriate
> application.
> 
> I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and test it
> on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out to the build
> farm broken and make everyone unhappy.
> 
> I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services on
> an old V20z.  I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which stores mail
> for each user  With all of this, I seldomly tax it's resources.  I do,
> however use this to build and test to make sure that it properly compiles
> and runs my applications.  This has saved me countless of re-spins do to
> compiler or library issues. Without X-windows and some WM, I would no longer
> be able to use this machine that way and would have to take the hit for
> breaking Solaris builds.
> 
> I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc efforts.
> However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive broken.  It also
> has that funky PXE graphics card.  I got around the NIC by putting a
> fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked up a replacement
> DVD drive.  I was hoping to not only use it for testing, but to use it to
> help the SPARC OI efforts but it still requires X-windows and WM to be
> useful for me.
> 
> I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product
> development.
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Open Indiana]

It's not that OI doesn't have to have a GUI, it's only that not all settings
have to be set OVER a GUI. 
Of course it needs a decent GUI, but that doesn't imply that you can
change/alter anything without getting deeper and into the commandline. 



-Original Message-
From: Gary Gendel [mailto:g...@genashor.com] 
Sent: zondag 2 september 2012 16:53
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden
resigns"

On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
> On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the 
>>> command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including 
>>> Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to 
>>> administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use 
>>> it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI 
>>> would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most 
>>> importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old 
>>> adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. But it 
>>> must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less 
>>> versed person will understand how good it is.
>>
>> Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the 
>> horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build everything 
>> and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI 
>> popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an 
>> organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If 
>> OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who 
>> already preferred Solaris.
>
> +1. Precisely.
>
I totally agree.  However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and window
manager on my server.  I personally would prefer a simple window manager
over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to go with
these.

I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every
Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test sitting
in the home office on the opposite coast.  Our clients still have a large
investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this builds and runs on
a Solaris variant.  Some of the apps can launch external programs, so it
determines whether it should use gnome-open, etc. to choose the appropriate
application.

I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and test it
on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out to the build
farm broken and make everyone unhappy.

I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services on
an old V20z.  I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which stores mail
for each user  With all of this, I seldomly tax it's resources.  I do,
however use this to build and test to make sure that it properly compiles
and runs my applications.  This has saved me countless of re-spins do to
compiler or library issues. Without X-windows and some WM, I would no longer
be able to use this machine that way and would have to take the hit for
breaking Solaris builds.

I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc efforts.
However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive broken.  It also
has that funky PXE graphics card.  I got around the NIC by putting a
fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked up a replacement
DVD drive.  I was hoping to not only use it for testing, but to use it to
help the SPARC OI efforts but it still requires X-windows and WM to be
useful for me.

I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product
development.

Gary



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Gary Gendel]

On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:

On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:


I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the 
command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including 
Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to 
administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use 
it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI 
would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most 
importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old 
adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. But it 
must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less 
versed person will understand how good it is.


Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the 
horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build everything 
and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI 
popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an 
organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If 
OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who 
already preferred Solaris.


+1. Precisely.

I totally agree.  However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and 
window manager on my server.  I personally would prefer a simple window 
manager over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to 
go with these.


I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every 
Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test 
sitting in the home office on the opposite coast.  Our clients still 
have a large investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this 
builds and runs on a Solaris variant.  Some of the apps can launch 
external programs, so it determines whether it should use gnome-open, 
etc. to choose the appropriate application.


I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and 
test it on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out 
to the build farm broken and make everyone unhappy.


I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services 
on an old V20z.  I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which 
stores mail for each user  With all of this, I seldomly tax it's 
resources.  I do, however use this to build and test to make sure that 
it properly compiles and runs my applications.  This has saved me 
countless of re-spins do to compiler or library issues. Without 
X-windows and some WM, I would no longer be able to use this machine 
that way and would have to take the hit for breaking Solaris builds.


I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc 
efforts.  However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive 
broken.  It also has that funky PXE graphics card.  I got around the NIC 
by putting a fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked 
up a replacement DVD drive.  I was hoping to not only use it for 
testing, but to use it to help the SPARC OI efforts but it still 
requires X-windows and WM to be useful for me.


I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product 
development.


Gary



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Dave Koelmeyer]

On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:


I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the 
command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including 
Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to 
administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use 
it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI 
would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most 
importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old 
adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. But it 
must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less 
versed person will understand how good it is.


Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the 
horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build everything and 
incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI 
popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an 
organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If 
OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who 
already preferred Solaris.


+1. Precisely.

--
Dave Koelmeyer
http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Open Indiana]

I guess i sparked this discussion about the GUI. Not that I want a GUI, but
if you read the comments on Alasdair Lumsden resign then most people that
call OI "a stupid OS" are the people that only use a GUI to do things. ;-)

But based on the number of reactions on this subject I fear that there a
just a very few OI users. Or the rest must have been sleeping the last days.


So I would suggest that we start some kind of voting/.. somewhere on the
internet. Maybe in this mailgroup or on the OI website. 
I suggest the following questions:
1. Who wants to help develop OI?
2. What skills do you (the voter) have that can help OI? 
3. What kind of software do you want to have running on OI? 
4. What kind of hardware/drivers do you want to have running on OI?
5. Have you ever created a "HOWTO" for OI? If "YES" where is it? 
6. Have you ever found a useful "HOWTO" for OI? If "YES" where is it?
7. Have you ever created a useful "software package" for OI? If "YES" where
is it?
8. Do you use OI in a commercial environment? 
9. 

There must be more useful questions that I forget. But if we start to gather
the above information we already have more (centralized) than we have right
now. 




-Original Message-
From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us] 
Sent: zaterdag 1 september 2012 16:48
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden
resigns"

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:
>
> I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command 
> line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But 
> making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer 
> web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a 
> home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach 
> a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it 
> will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage "A good product
markets itself" has some truth in it.
> But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a 
> less versed person will understand how good it is.

Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse.  It
is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate
updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI.  OI popularity should come
second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers
and corporate entities) to sustain it. 
If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who
already preferred Solaris.

OpenIndiana is still very young.  Successful OS distributions take quite a
few years to become significant.  It is not something which happens in just
a couple of years.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote:


I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line 
that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI 
look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that 
would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is 
not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger 
user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some 
extent the old adage "A good product markets itself" has some truth in it. 
But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less 
versed person will understand how good it is.


Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the 
horse.  It is more important to be able to easily build everything and 
incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI.  OI 
popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an 
organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. 
If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who 
already preferred Solaris.


OpenIndiana is still very young.  Successful OS distributions take 
quite a few years to become significant.  It is not something which 
happens in just a couple of years.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Reginald Beardsley]

--- On Sat, 9/1/12, Robin Axelsson  wrote:

> From: Robin Axelsson 
> Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"
> To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
> Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 7:27 AM
> While I don't have a clue about what
> userbase OpenIndiana has and how widespread it is, there are
> some things I see that don't look good for OI.
> 
> First of all I find it to be poorly marketed. The website is
> updated almost never and it looks like nothing is happening,
> there are no roadmaps, the documentation on the site is
> improving but still has some considerable lacks. A website
> that looks poorly maintained with empty menus doesn't look
> good at all. The website should put a much greater effort at
> marketing itself and show what OI/Illumos can really do.
> We're talking about statements such as "ZFS is leading
> technology ..." and rich illustrations so that even less
> versed people will understand it. The design of a website
> also communicate the quality of the product. It may sound a
> little vainglorious to some people but that's how it works
> in real life.
> 

It's quite a lot of work to do what you're asking for.  Commercial companies 
(e.g. IBM, RH, Suse) are spending a lot of money on staff to fund this on 
Linux.  The corresponding source of funding for OpenSolaris was Sun.  OI came 
into existence when Oracle withdrew support for OpenSolaris and closed the code.
The remaining players in the OpenSolaris community don't have the deep pockets 
needed to do everything and must choose carefully what they do.  The rest is 
volunteers.  If you see something you think needs improvement work on it.

> Secondly I find it incredibly hard to start developing
> things on the operating system. If I for example want to get
> started with contributing by porting a Linux graphics driver
> to OI/Illumos, where do I begin? How do I get the compilers
> to work with me without errors and how do I troubleshoot
> them? Or in short . where is the *documentation* for it?
> I think there should be an open door that lets new people in
> and makes it easier to get started developing for
> OI/Illumos. Right now it looks like a closed community with
> a very high barrier of entry for those outside that are
> willing to develop for OI/Illumos. If this problem gets
> fixed then maybe userland applications that are necessary
> for a desktop OS will eventually find their way into the OS
> for those people who want to use it as a desktop OS.

There is a small mountain of documentation. Whether it's still as accessible as 
it used to be I don't know.  I assembled a local copy of all the Sun docs long 
ago.  

There is inevitably a high barrier to entry for someone who wants to port a 
device driver from one OS to another.  It requires a good understanding of two 
complex systems and the physical device.  That is never going to be easy.  In 
many instances it may be easier to write a new driver from scratch.

As for developing on Solaris generally, it's not noticeably different from any 
other Unix derived system other than being a good bit more polished.  This not 
quite as true for OI, but it's hard for me to understand what issues you're 
having in that area. It is not the same as Gnu/Linux, but that is because 
tradition and compatibility are given far higher precedence in Solaris.  The 
big objection long time SunOS users have to Gnu/Linux is arbitrary changes to 
command line option semantics and syntax.

Changes like new vs old awk are a big deal in large systems environments. Sun 
made new awk nawk.  IBM which came to the Unix wars late, made old awk oawk and 
new awk awk. Gnu/Linux made gawk awk.

It's trivially easy to interpose a sym link or shell script in your path to 
erase such differences so that a common model works everywhere.  This was how I 
dealt w/ working on Sun, SGI, DEC, HP, Intergraph, Alliant, Intel, IBM and 
other systems simultaneously via an X terminal and a common home directory 
mounted via NFS.  My PATH started w/ ${HOME}/${ARCH}: and whenever I 
encountered a variation from common practice I made the appropriate adjustments.

Complex programs like compilers and linkers don't have a common set of features 
and options. So the foregoing will not work for them.  However, gcc works on 
Solaris, so basic compiling should not be an issue.

As for being able to compile and link a simple program.  All systems seem to 
have moved to not installing development tools be default.  There are several 
different package installation tools for Gnu/Linux so being generally able to 
administer and configure any Gnu/Linux box you encounter requires familiarity 
w/ several tool sets.

> I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is
> th

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Robin Axelsson]

While I don't have a clue about what userbase OpenIndiana has and how 
widespread it is, there are some things I see that don't look good for OI.


First of all I find it to be poorly marketed. The website is updated 
almost never and it looks like nothing is happening, there are no 
roadmaps, the documentation on the site is improving but still has some 
considerable lacks. A website that looks poorly maintained with empty 
menus doesn't look good at all. The website should put a much greater 
effort at marketing itself and show what OI/Illumos can really do. We're 
talking about statements such as "ZFS is leading technology ..." and 
rich illustrations so that even less versed people will understand it. 
The design of a website also communicate the quality of the product. It 
may sound a little vainglorious to some people but that's how it works 
in real life.


Secondly I find it incredibly hard to start developing things on the 
operating system. If I for example want to get started with contributing 
by porting a Linux graphics driver to OI/Illumos, where do I begin? How 
do I get the compilers to work with me without errors and how do I 
troubleshoot them? Or in short . where is the *documentation* for 
it? I think there should be an open door that lets new people in and 
makes it easier to get started developing for OI/Illumos. Right now it 
looks like a closed community with a very high barrier of entry for 
those outside that are willing to develop for OI/Illumos. If this 
problem gets fixed then maybe userland applications that are necessary 
for a desktop OS will eventually find their way into the OS for those 
people who want to use it as a desktop OS.


I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command 
line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But 
making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer 
web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a 
home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a 
higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will 
get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage "A good product 
markets itself" has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it 
has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how 
good it is.


Another weak point of the OS is hardware support. While I understand 
that it might be a tremendously daunting undertaking to maintain 
hardware support for everything there is out there, on can strategically 
focus on key hardware components. My personal pet peeve with OI is the 
poor support for my AMD/ATI GPU, otherwise I think I think it is a good 
thing that there is a focus on HBA and NIC hardware, i.e. hardware that 
is essential for it to function as a file/webserver as was stated in a 
prior post. But the most important thing is that it is well documented 
so that a user who wants to start using OI will know *beforehand* what 
hardware to use.



On 2012-09-01 12:06, Open Indiana wrote:

Although Openindiana is opensource it doesn't mean it doesn't need any
steering or control.
My main concern is who will take up the flag and carry it?
The people who think OpenIndiana is a dead end have IMHO no idea what it is.
They apparently expect an OS with a GUI that lets them control anything and
they forget that on all OS's one has to leave the GUI at one point as soon
as there is a need that goes deeper than starting a writer-application.
Even Windows2008 still has a scripting and commandline facility.

Someone or some people have to take control on a roadmap and set a course.
Where do we want to go and what will we build?
If hosting ever starts to be a problem I will jump in.

But... with the recession on its way all over the world, people have to work
harder and have not as much spare time as they used to have. When someone
needs to choose between his work or an OpenSource hobby the choose is easy.



-Original Message-
From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us]
Sent: vrijdag 31 augustus 2012 21:00
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden
resigns"


People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing
for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and
rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave,
but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job.

The main risk at the moment is that OpenIndiana is hosted on Alasdair's
servers and openindiana.org is owned by EveryCity Ltd (i.e.
Alasdair's company).  The servers and domain are still running but there is
no telling about the future.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

__

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Open Indiana]

Although Openindiana is opensource it doesn't mean it doesn't need any
steering or control. 
My main concern is who will take up the flag and carry it? 
The people who think OpenIndiana is a dead end have IMHO no idea what it is.
They apparently expect an OS with a GUI that lets them control anything and
they forget that on all OS's one has to leave the GUI at one point as soon
as there is a need that goes deeper than starting a writer-application. 
Even Windows2008 still has a scripting and commandline facility. 

Someone or some people have to take control on a roadmap and set a course.
Where do we want to go and what will we build? 
If hosting ever starts to be a problem I will jump in. 

But... with the recession on its way all over the world, people have to work
harder and have not as much spare time as they used to have. When someone
needs to choose between his work or an OpenSource hobby the choose is easy. 



-Original Message-
From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us] 
Sent: vrijdag 31 augustus 2012 21:00
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden
resigns"

>
> People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing 
> for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and 
> rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, 
> but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job.

The main risk at the moment is that OpenIndiana is hosted on Alasdair's
servers and openindiana.org is owned by EveryCity Ltd (i.e. 
Alasdair's company).  The servers and domain are still running but there is
no telling about the future.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Ivar Janmaat]

Now we are talking!
I have been deploying Sun Rays for over 14 years.
It is a perfect solution and it needs rock solide virtualisation to 
handle the large numbers of VMs.

ZFS and Comstar features would be great to use.
I am hoping that the next version of Oracle VDI/Sun Ray software 
supports Solaris 11 and Comstar.
With OpenIndiana as a drop in replacement for Solaris 11 it should also 
be possible to run this version on Openindiana.

So I need Openindiana to be around at that time guys!

Kind regards,

Ivar



Sašo Kiselkov schreef:



I think you hit one area where, as garrett described, Illumos and OI
could excel: desktop virtualization. It's all the rage these days due to
reduced management issues and added security. Sun had a solution for
just this market ages ago with the Sun Ray range of products. OI should
take a good long look at these areas, because we could use the core
Illumos technologies to really kick commercial VDI infrastructures in
the teeth with at least the following:

 *) Much, much, much lower overhead when compared to VDI. A VDI machine
needs loads of DRAM, loads of disk IO capacity and consequently is a
very expensive proposition. OI can run VDI instances either
natively or isolated in zones and provide excellent performance
(potentially orders of magnitude better than VMware or other kinds
of traditional heavy-weight VMs).

 *) ZFS for file management, built-in backups, rollbacks, and just a
sweet bundle of win for the VDI market.

 *) A very secure and well managed software environment with local
IPS repos, DTrace for solving performance issues and just generally
much better control over the environment than that provided by
closed black-box products).

Anyway, just my $0.02

Cheers,
--
Saso

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Sašo Kiselkov]

On 08/31/2012 09:22 PM, Ron Dawson wrote:
> In my workplace we are still using some SPARC desktop applications on aging
> Sun SPARC workstations and Tadpole laptops.  We also utilize Sun Ray
> technology extensively in our training environment.  (As an aside, I
> remember talking to Garrett back when he was working for Tadpole/General
> Dynamics about specing out a Tadpole purchase for our portable Sun Ray
> training classroom).  Our production servers are all running Solaris 10
> (SPARC) and there are a couple of Solaris 11 (x86) servers I'm looking to
> bring online soon.  I was hoping to complete our migration of our desktop
> apps to OI running on x86 for out in the field, but I suppose we could just
> continue on that road to a Linux desktop if we have to.  In theory we could
> run our Sun Ray clients on a Linux server although I have not tried setting
> that up.  I'm not sure how much help Oracle would be willing to provide if
> we were not running Oracle Linux.  I would prefer to remain in the
> Solaris/Illumos/OI world though.

I think you hit one area where, as garrett described, Illumos and OI
could excel: desktop virtualization. It's all the rage these days due to
reduced management issues and added security. Sun had a solution for
just this market ages ago with the Sun Ray range of products. OI should
take a good long look at these areas, because we could use the core
Illumos technologies to really kick commercial VDI infrastructures in
the teeth with at least the following:

 *) Much, much, much lower overhead when compared to VDI. A VDI machine
needs loads of DRAM, loads of disk IO capacity and consequently is a
very expensive proposition. OI can run VDI instances either
natively or isolated in zones and provide excellent performance
(potentially orders of magnitude better than VMware or other kinds
of traditional heavy-weight VMs).

 *) ZFS for file management, built-in backups, rollbacks, and just a
sweet bundle of win for the VDI market.

 *) A very secure and well managed software environment with local
IPS repos, DTrace for solving performance issues and just generally
much better control over the environment than that provided by
closed black-box products).

Anyway, just my $0.02

Cheers,
--
Saso

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Jan Owoc]

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Bob Friesenhahn
 wrote:
>> People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for
>> OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock
>> on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I
>> would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job.
>
> The main risk at the moment is that OpenIndiana is hosted on Alasdair's
> servers and openindiana.org is owned by EveryCity Ltd (i.e. Alasdair's
> company).  The servers and domain are still running but there is no telling
> about the future.


Alasdair, in his letter, wrote:
> I will continue, through EveryCity, to provide hosting for OpenIndiana's
> infrastructure. I also hope that a new project lead will step forward to
> look after things, and that they can carry the project forward. If no
> viable new lead steps forward then I would encourage the OpenIndiana
> developers to hand responsibility for it over to the Illumos Foundation.

I think that the larger problem is for the community to set some
attainable goals, and continues to deliver on them. I don't think
finding hosting will be a problem (whether EverCity continues to host
it or not).


Jan

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Ron Dawson]

I'm also sad to hear that* *Alasdair Lumsden has resigned as lead of the
project.  I was greatly heartened when Alasdair first announced the project
and have been using OI ever since the early releases on both my personal
laptop and as my new work desktop (my other work desktop is Solaris
10/SPARC).  I wish that he had not been so down on the viability of OI in
his resignation letter, but I can certainly understand the rant given the
frustrations he was dealing with.

After reading though the OI-dev thread I have to say that I hope that
Garret D'Amore is not correct in the assertion that OI (or any other
Illumos/opensolaris derived distribution with a graphical front end
userland) is a dead end.  I work with a Solaris or OI desktop every day and
yes, there are many things that would be nice to have, but the argument
that we just give up and use Apple laptops or whatnot as our front-end
systems seems a bit defeatist and reminds me of what we went through in
Unix land back when Windows NT first arrived in the data centre.

In my workplace we are still using some SPARC desktop applications on aging
Sun SPARC workstations and Tadpole laptops.  We also utilize Sun Ray
technology extensively in our training environment.  (As an aside, I
remember talking to Garrett back when he was working for Tadpole/General
Dynamics about specing out a Tadpole purchase for our portable Sun Ray
training classroom).  Our production servers are all running Solaris 10
(SPARC) and there are a couple of Solaris 11 (x86) servers I'm looking to
bring online soon.  I was hoping to complete our migration of our desktop
apps to OI running on x86 for out in the field, but I suppose we could just
continue on that road to a Linux desktop if we have to.  In theory we could
run our Sun Ray clients on a Linux server although I have not tried setting
that up.  I'm not sure how much help Oracle would be willing to provide if
we were not running Oracle Linux.  I would prefer to remain in the
Solaris/Illumos/OI world though.

- Ron

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 3:31 AM, Dave Koelmeyer <
dave.koelme...@davekoelmeyer.co.nz> wrote:

> On 31/08/12 01:10 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>
>> On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
>>
>>> And the "farewell" message (if you can call it that) here:
>>>
>>> http://lwn.net/Articles/**514046/ 
>>>
>> http://openindiana.org/**pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/**thread.htmlhas
>>  the original
>> message and responses on the developer list.
>>
>>  Interesting, although I can't post to that list.
>
> It's sad and disappointing and understandable and all that for the project
> lead to quit, but seriously: waking up this morning to read without warning
> that I was a bonehead for ever considering OpenIndiana, and that the hours,
> and hours, and hours I dedicated to evangelizing OpenIndiana was actually
> stupid because at the end of the day Linux is good enough? Well, I
> sincerely hope *this* is final:
>
> > From:  Alasdair Lumsden 
> > To:  oi-dev-AT-openindiana.org
> >
> > ...I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity.
>
>
> --
> Dave Koelmeyer
> http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz
>
>
>
> __**_
> OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
> OpenIndiana-discuss@**openindiana.org
> http://openindiana.org/**mailman/listinfo/openindiana-**discuss
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Bob Friesenhahn]

People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for
OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock
on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I
would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job.


The main risk at the moment is that OpenIndiana is hosted on 
Alasdair's servers and openindiana.org is owned by EveryCity Ltd (i.e. 
Alasdair's company).  The servers and domain are still running but 
there is no telling about the future.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Gary]

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012, Jan Owoc wrote:

>
> NB: just because you are using a copyleft license still doesn't mean
> the people using your code must work with you; they could create a
> fork and ignore you, only publishing the code as a whole when they
> have a finished product (apparently Android was doing this with the
> Linux kernel). Using a permissive license almost guarantees you'll
> never see code back (I wonder how much OSX gave back to BSD?).
>

This topic has been beaten to death a million times over. You can't throw a
rock without hitting a BSD licensed project that's been repurposed for a
commercial venture. That's /why/ the devs chose that license in the first
place. But there's an enormous, tedious history of butthurt when it comes
to "giving back" to a BSD project. There's more than ten years of whining
about OS X. and several more about OpenBSD, OpenSSH, etc. The reality is
that these projects can get bent out of shape and demand support but
there's no recourse.

The CDDL is its own beast designed to offer something from both worlds (GNU
& BSD) but I still get the impression that few outside of this community
actually understand it despite several FAQs and list archives of
explanations.

-Gary
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Jan Owoc]

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:30 AM, Open Indiana  wrote:
> It is a true nightmare that the hard work of a lot of volunteers and the
> people of the old Sun company dies because it has been sucked empty by the
> commercial snakes. How Is it possible that companies can take
> opensource-code, wrap a commercial GUI around it, close/disable most of the
> opensource features and then sell it as a unique product?

In the Free Software world there are two approaches to licensing:

A) copyleft -> if you use my code, you legally must make it available.
If you don't want to give back, you will likely avoid my code entirely
and write your own.

B) permissive (non-copyleft) -> use my code for whatever purpose you
want. You are more likely to use my code if you have the choice
whether or not to give back, but I may never see changes/improvements.

The GNU Project argues (almost) everything should be licensed as "A".
The *BSDs argue (almost) everything should be licensed as "B". The
CDDL is somewhere in between.

NB: just because you are using a copyleft license still doesn't mean
the people using your code must work with you; they could create a
fork and ignore you, only publishing the code as a whole when they
have a finished product (apparently Android was doing this with the
Linux kernel). Using a permissive license almost guarantees you'll
never see code back (I wonder how much OSX gave back to BSD?).

I don't know of a free software license that would require that
downstream vendors cooperate with you. The only way is to have a
charismatic individual who will talk with the vendor's execs and
convince them that it's in our mutual best interest to cooperate.


> The main question now are:
> Who wants to be the President?
> Do we want to start a sort of election?
> Who wants to lead this project through the battlefield?

Was there ever an election to the OI Governing Council, or has the
document not been updated?
http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Human+Resources


Jan

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Dave Koelmeyer]

On 31/08/12 07:31 PM, Sašo Kiselkov wrote:
People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing 
for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and 
rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, 
but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job. 
Cheers, -- Saso 


Agreed, but I just wish he didn't have to pour fuel on the fire before 
he did. It's just incredibly poor form.


Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on it.

--
Dave Koelmeyer
http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Sašo Kiselkov]

On 08/31/2012 08:31 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
> On 31/08/12 01:10 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote:
>> On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
>>> And the "farewell" message (if you can call it that) here:
>>>
>>> http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/
>> http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.html has
>> the original
>> message and responses on the developer list.
>>
> Interesting, although I can't post to that list.
> 
> It's sad and disappointing and understandable and all that for the
> project lead to quit, but seriously: waking up this morning to read
> without warning that I was a bonehead for ever considering OpenIndiana,
> and that the hours, and hours, and hours I dedicated to evangelizing
> OpenIndiana was actually stupid because at the end of the day Linux is
> good enough?

People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for
OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock
on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I
would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job.

Cheers,
--
Saso

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Open Indiana]

OH MY GOD

This is to bad to be true. 
Do I really read people writing down that they have seen Linux outperform
Solaris? 
"I spent over a decade developing big data software, primarily on Solaris. I
have seen workloads that bring a 64-core Solaris box to its knees with
massively multi-threaded, big-memory footprint applications. Linux handled
the same load with aplomb."
I have seen this too! It happened while Solaris created all the threads it
needed for the process and Linux just emulated some multithreading and by
that handled every piece one or two threads at a time. Linux didn't break,
but it just took 1000x times longer to process. 

But back to the main problem. We have no "president of the core" at this
moment. This means that the last piece of resistance against the
"commercials" will start to crumble. 

It is a true nightmare that the hard work of a lot of volunteers and the
people of the old Sun company dies because it has been sucked empty by the
commercial snakes. How Is it possible that companies can take
opensource-code, wrap a commercial GUI around it, close/disable most of the
opensource features and then sell it as a unique product? 

I am not a programmer but a enthusiast user/admin of Solaris 10, OpenIndiana
and Solaris 11. I also use Windows 2003, Windows 2008 Datacenter and
OpenSuse11 in projects. The things I can do with OpenIndiana and Solaris 10,
the way they perform with websites and MySQL databases have I never seen on
any other platform.  

Ok, there is a lot of hardware that will not run OpenIndiana out of the box,
and Openindiana is a bit difficult to use, update and alter. And yes, it has
a steep learningcurve and because of that there is a need for solid
documentation. But there was a lot of documentation, this could be found at
the old SUN site, but Oracle has changed and almost secured their
documentsites so there are fewer resources for that. 

The main question now are: 
Who wants to be the President? 
Do we want to start a sort of election? 
Who wants to lead this project through the battlefield?






-Original Message-
From: Dave Koelmeyer [mailto:dave.koelme...@davekoelmeyer.co.nz] 
Sent: vrijdag 31 augustus 2012 8:32
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden
resigns"

On 31/08/12 01:10 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
>> And the "farewell" message (if you can call it that) here:
>>
>> http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/
> http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.html has 
> the original message and responses on the developer list.
>
Interesting, although I can't post to that list.

It's sad and disappointing and understandable and all that for the project
lead to quit, but seriously: waking up this morning to read without warning
that I was a bonehead for ever considering OpenIndiana, and that the hours,
and hours, and hours I dedicated to evangelizing OpenIndiana was actually
stupid because at the end of the day Linux is good enough? Well, I sincerely
hope *this* is final:

 > From:  Alasdair Lumsden 
 > To:  oi-dev-AT-openindiana.org
 >
 > ...I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity.


--
Dave Koelmeyer
http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Dave Koelmeyer]

On 31/08/12 01:10 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote:

On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:

And the "farewell" message (if you can call it that) here:

http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/

http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.html has the original
message and responses on the developer list.


Interesting, although I can't post to that list.

It's sad and disappointing and understandable and all that for the 
project lead to quit, but seriously: waking up this morning to read 
without warning that I was a bonehead for ever considering OpenIndiana, 
and that the hours, and hours, and hours I dedicated to evangelizing 
OpenIndiana was actually stupid because at the end of the day Linux is 
good enough? Well, I sincerely hope *this* is final:


> From:  Alasdair Lumsden 
> To:  oi-dev-AT-openindiana.org
>
> ...I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity.


--
Dave Koelmeyer
http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] "OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns"

[Alan Coopersmith]

On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
> And the "farewell" message (if you can call it that) here:
> 
> http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/

http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.html has the original
message and responses on the developer list.

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith-  alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Engineering - http://blogs.oracle.com/alanc

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