[Opensim-dev] Proposal: Removal of the Data Framework
As I understand it, we have no longer anything actually using the Data Mapper Framework introduced as a proposed alterantive to NHibernate a year ago. I propose we now retire that piece of code. These are the projects that will be removed: * OpenSim.Data.MySQLMapper * OpenSim.Data.MSSQLMapper * OpenSim.Data.Base In OpenSim.Data, the following classes would be removed: * OpenSimDatabaseConnector.cs * OpenSimDataReader.cs * OpenSimObjectFieldMapper.cs* PrimitiveBaseShapeTableMapper.cs Also, the AvatarFactoryModule erroneously still references these namespaces, but that's a minor fix. If nobody has a strong objection, I will start removing these files Feb 2 2009. Best regards,Stefan AnderssonTribal Media AB___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
[Opensim-dev] Regions larger then 256x256
Hey all, I've been thinking about this supposed limitation of 256x256m sized regions because of the recent discussion on integrating GIS data with it and I wanted to discuss all of the known limitations, mitigating factors, and potentially some solutions to dealing with this. Now, from what I understand, the Linden client only really knows about 256x256. However, also, so far, the only two things that I've found that really make use of that limitation is terrain, and maptiles. The terrain system is designed in such a way that it makes a region have 256x256m split into 16x16 blocks and therefore there's only space for that. Map Blocks just assume 256x256.Mind you, the client also seems to use it for caching the terrain and objects as well, so it really shouldn't change whatever it is or the client will have an issue Now, the kicker is object positions, avatar positions, textures, border crossings and just about everything else *doesn't care about 256x256 on the client side*.The rest of the 256x256 limitations are in the service. So, solutions.. Now, technically, it's possible to make a region 512x512 and have it generate 4 maptiles and 3 'psudo regions' in the client stack.. the psudo regions would simply be 'terrain senders' and 'terrain update' mechanisms.. and that would work! Any thoughts on this? Best Regards Teravus ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal: Killing off AvatarFactory
Ryan.. all about house cleaning. :) On 1/26/09, Ryan McDougall sempu...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Stefan Andersson ste...@tribalmedia.se wrote: It's kind of crazy that we have a RegionModule (AvatarFactoryModule) that really just look up the CommsManager AvatarService and forwards a request to that. I propose we either modularize the whole thing (the prefferrable thing) or merge the AvatarFactory module code into the IAvatarService. If nobody has objected strongly until Jan 2 2009, I will mantis this. Best regards, Stefan Andersson Tribal Media AB +1 to the general house-cleaning effort! Hiphip-hurrah! Cheers, ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Regions larger then 256x256
anyone ever tried creating a larger region just to see what would happen? On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Teravus Ovares tera...@gmail.com wrote: Hey all, I've been thinking about this supposed limitation of 256x256m sized regions because of the recent discussion on integrating GIS data with it and I wanted to discuss all of the known limitations, mitigating factors, and potentially some solutions to dealing with this. Now, from what I understand, the Linden client only really knows about 256x256. However, also, so far, the only two things that I've found that really make use of that limitation is terrain, and maptiles. The terrain system is designed in such a way that it makes a region have 256x256m split into 16x16 blocks and therefore there's only space for that. Map Blocks just assume 256x256.Mind you, the client also seems to use it for caching the terrain and objects as well, so it really shouldn't change whatever it is or the client will have an issue Now, the kicker is object positions, avatar positions, textures, border crossings and just about everything else *doesn't care about 256x256 on the client side*.The rest of the 256x256 limitations are in the service. So, solutions.. Now, technically, it's possible to make a region 512x512 and have it generate 4 maptiles and 3 'psudo regions' in the client stack.. the psudo regions would simply be 'terrain senders' and 'terrain update' mechanisms.. and that would work! Any thoughts on this? Best Regards Teravus ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins
Paul Fishwick wrote: People do a lot of web-browsing and perhaps anon accounts will help better integrate opensim with the web. Consider the following: 1. Someone is browsing the web for a topic such as red wine 2. They get to various wine distributor and vineyard web pages 3. They find out that one of the vineyards has a hot link to a 3D space 4. They click on it and find themselves in the opensim world for the vineyard We need to find ways of making it easier, and more transparent, to go between #2 and #4. It may be that a stepping-stone is required such as Xenki, which is browser embedded (before launching a full-blown viewer). Anon accounts may help because it is similar to unrestricted web browsing. And, these accounts may ease the transition between #2 and #4, and thus grow the metaverse. interesting thoughts. we could give anonymous guests black and white avatars :-) i like the idea of a randomly chosen first (or last) name. we could even integrate that with gridinfo and the rezzme URI scheme and protocol handlers: a rezzme URI such as rezzme://anonymous%20anonym...@vineyard.com:9000/merlot/ could obtain as part of the mandatory gridinfo retrieval from vineyard.com:9000 also obtain an anonymous user name generated by the grid and the client would then use that as the avatar name; for example, vineyard.com's gridinfo might return anonymousJoe Anonymous/anonymous the restriction on the anonymous user class would be as specified (and they'd get a black white avatar :-) cheers, DrS/dirk -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins
Charles Krinke wrote: Overweight tourist with a camera like There.com ?? But, yes, that is another good question, how should we represent the avatar and what features should a sim allow to a guest avatar. All good things to consider as we evolve the Metaverse off into the future. Personally, I would think a guest should have the ability to read notecards, experience scripts, probably be able to touch. Things that would fit into the paradigm of a naive user entering the Metaverse for the first time. i like the idea of this being configurable per grid. I like the browser Xenkii idea. I rather suspect most of these folks will enter our Metaverse through some sort of browser interface as a result of a hyperlink on a 'Flat Web Site'. or a rezzme: URI -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal for a cleanup/correction of the region-module system
MW wrote: I have to say I'm not a big fan of what I've seen of mono.addins so far. Maybe ExtensionLoader is better, so I do think we should look at that. As I think it is better to only have one system of loading plugins/modules. As for initialise vs Initialize, hehe. Well personally I think it should stay as it is. I really see no reason to change it. I do know of other opensource projects that use initialise, Ogre being one. And it would be as hard for me to remember to look/search for Initialize as it would be for you to look for initialise. So my vote is a strong keep to UK english or even the mix we have (because some bits are in US english). But I really don't think people should have to switch code that is there to US english. Sorry thats a point I do feel quite strongly on. But saying that if everyone else voted in favour of that switch I wouldn't stand in the way. Just would think it was wrong. Any code I write is just likely to have uk spelling. The same way any code you write is likely to have US spelling. And opensim has had the UK spelling from the start. so, +1 on keeping the UK spelling :-) DrS/dirk -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal for a cleanup/correction of the region-module system
Charles Krinke wrote: ROFL. Oh, it was the 'z' versus the 's' you were discussing. I thought it was the i versus the I. ROFL. yeah, i can imagine there are folks out there that object to the capital I as being too capitalistic... -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal: Killing off AvatarFactory
My preference is that we modulariSe the whole avatar creation, its much more
flexible.
Also on that subject I suggest we move the server side avatar data from the
user server to one of the other servers (most likely the inventory server). I
don't think it should be in the user server for a number of reasons. But one
reason we have came across is wanting to share a single user server with
multiple grids. I think the user server really should just be account
infomation.
But anyway back onto the AvatarFactoryModule, yes if we aren't going to
modularise it then we should just move it all to IAvatarService. No point in
having the current half way solution.
Also I think the process should even a more general, start modularising the
whole of the CommsManager.
But not sure anyone is going to be able to give a +1 or -1 on any idea before
Jan 2 2009 ;)
Stefan Andersson ste...@tribalmedia.se wrote:.hmmessage P { margin:0px;
padding:0px } body.hmmessage { font-size: 10pt; font-family:Verdana } It's
kind of crazy that we have a RegionModule (AvatarFactoryModule) that really
just look up the CommsManager AvatarService and forwards a request to that.
I propose we either modularize the whole thing (the prefferrable thing) or
merge the AvatarFactory module code into the IAvatarService.
If nobody has objected strongly until Jan 2 2009, I will mantis this.
Best regards,
Stefan Andersson
Tribal Media AB
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Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal for a cleanup/correction of the region-module system
Ryan McDougall wrote: My apologies for thread-jacking... I just want to be clear I didn't propose it because I came later and decided I didn't like UK spelling. I am Canadian and historically Canadians have used UK spelling. I proposed it for the same reason (US) English is the standard language of all things international; business, science, open source, etc: we have to pick one anyway, there will be more people unhappy with the choice than happy, so might as well just pick the most common one and suck it up. so, to balance things a bit, if we actually do want to standardize one spelling system, i'd say, let's standardize on the UK variant then, given that that is the one OpenSim was born with. -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Source tree cleanup
Sean Dague wrote: Jeff Ames wrote: Hello, There are a few dusty corners in trunk from before forge.opensimulator.org was up, but I was wondering about moving them over, or merging them with core. [...] * share/python i've cleaned out that one. was just example code. -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
[Opensim-dev] the weird idea collection
Hi, I hope it's ok if I start a couple of mails here with several ideas I initially wanted to bring into the AWG channels, but ... well, you know. Charles' mail and blog entry sort of encouraged me to do so, so blame him :-). If it's not ok, please stop me. Regarding these ideas: some of them might be not feasible, some plain wrong. I suspect most of them are not even weird or new :-/. Thank you for your time. Dirk/Barth ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal: Killing off AvatarFactory
* watches MW and stefan catch each other's spelling mistakes* :D -T On 1/26/09, MW michaelwr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: My preference is that we modulariSe the whole avatar creation, its much more flexible. Also on that subject I suggest we move the server side avatar data from the user server to one of the other servers (most likely the inventory server). I don't think it should be in the user server for a number of reasons. But one reason we have came across is wanting to share a single user server with multiple grids. I think the user server really should just be account infomation. But anyway back onto the AvatarFactoryModule, yes if we aren't going to modularise it then we should just move it all to IAvatarService. No point in having the current half way solution. Also I think the process should even a more general, start modularising the whole of the CommsManager. But not sure anyone is going to be able to give a +1 or -1 on any idea before Jan 2 2009 ;) Stefan Andersson ste...@tribalmedia.se wrote: It's kind of crazy that we have a RegionModule (AvatarFactoryModule) that really just look up the CommsManager AvatarService and forwards a request to that. I propose we either modularize the whole thing (the prefferrable thing) or merge the AvatarFactory module code into the IAvatarService. If nobody has objected strongly until Jan 2 2009, I will mantis this. Best regards, Stefan Andersson Tribal Media AB ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal: Killing off AvatarFactory
Argh. s/Jan/Feb/ Best regards,Stefan AnderssonTribal Media AB Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:54:12 +From: michaelwr...@yahoo.co.ukto: opensim-...@lists.berlios.desubject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal: Killing off AvatarFactoryMy preference is that we modulariSe the whole avatar creation, its much more flexible. Also on that subject I suggest we move the server side avatar data from the user server to one of the other servers (most likely the inventory server). I don't think it should be in the user server for a number of reasons. But one reason we have came across is wanting to share a single user server with multiple grids. I think the user server really should just be account infomation.But anyway back onto the AvatarFactoryModule, yes if we aren't going to modularise it then we should just move it all to IAvatarService. No point in having the current half way solution.Also I think the process should even a more general, start modularising the whole of the CommsManager.But not sure anyone is going to be able to give a +1 or -1 on any idea before Jan 2 2009 ;)Stefan Andersson ste...@tribalmedia.se wrote: It's kind of crazy that we have a RegionModule (AvatarFactoryModule) that really just look up the CommsManager AvatarService and forwards a request to that.I propose we either modularize the whole thing (the prefferrable thing) or merge the AvatarFactory module code into the IAvatarService. If nobody has objected strongly until Jan 2 2009, I will mantis this.Best regards,Stefan AnderssonTribal Media AB___Opensim-dev mailing listopensim-...@lists.berlios.dehttps://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
Mostly, the road block to working to solve this issue is actually
getting many people on a region at once consistantly.It's hard to
coordinate tons of people on in a testing scenario :)
Anyway, yes, noted!
Teravus
On 1/26/09, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com wrote:
One problem with SL that is addressed quite often is the limited number
of AVs that one region can hold ('the number of people on an island').
This comes up in the 'big number' discussion and especially in nearly
every meeting scenario that is of high interest to the community.
Somehow this is also influencing the 'relevance of SL' (and thus
OpenSim)technology and grid technology in general ('I can have hundreds
of people in a Habbo place but only around 50 in SL')
I really want to dodge the official 'big numbers' discussion by stating
what would happen when there would be hundreds of people in one IRC
channel and all of them were writing at the same time. But I do believe
that one viable 'big number' scenario is a podium discussion where a
couple of persons are discussing and most of the other people are
listening/watching/reading in general. Or a sports event of sorts, with
- well :-) - 22 people acting and many more watching.
So what I think what would be valuable is a 'lightweight agent'
construction. This would be an AV that basically can't do much except
listening/watching/reading, she especially couldn't rezz anything. It's
a bit like the 'spectator mode' in some games. This way there could be
big numbers of watchers, thus giving more people the opportunity to
attend a meeting - practically increasing the number of virtual beings
in a region, without bringing the region down.
I could think of at least two ways to acchieve this:
- a camera woman AV that 'lightweight agents' could hook up to, using
the client only as a viewer; this would be a bit like a video stream,
just with less impact, since the rendering is still done in the viewer.
- a stripped down agent that got rid of everything that causes too much
stress on either network or server. Unfortunately I don't know how to do
that because I don't know the OpenSim construction enough. These
lightweight agents could have a representation (a sphere?) while they
are online, a distinct place and the ability to look around and maybe
move slowly.
By having something like that we could get rid of the 'theres just a
small number of AVs in every region' dilemma.
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Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal for a cleanup/correction of the region-module system
MW wrote: But do we standardize on one variant or standardise on that? Sorry couldn't stop myself :) that was a test :-) or was that a tezt? :-D DrS/dirk -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal: Removal of the Data Framework
Stefan Andersson wrote: As I understand it, we have no longer anything actually using the Data Mapper Framework introduced as a proposed alterantive to NHibernate a year ago. I propose we now retire that piece of code. These are the projects that will be removed: * OpenSim.Data.MySQLMapper * OpenSim.Data.MSSQLMapper * OpenSim.Data.Base In OpenSim.Data, the following classes would be removed: * OpenSimDatabaseConnector.cs * OpenSimDataReader.cs * OpenSimObjectFieldMapper.cs* PrimitiveBaseShapeTableMapper.cs Also, the AvatarFactoryModule erroneously still references these namespaces, but that's a minor fix. If nobody has a strong objection, I will start removing these files Feb 2 2009. +1, sounds good to me. Thanks for volunteering for the cleanup. -Sean -- Sean Dague / Neas Bade sda...@gmail.com http://dague.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Regions larger then 256x256
I too had this wish for Opensim, but gave up on it understanding it would be too difficult to implement and would hold too many issues. Sure, region *x* arrangements are possible and commonly used, but it does cause more complexity that way and moving all of them together or tweaking each individually could be a bit harder. My idea back then was being allowed to create regions in powers of 2 (eg: 256x256 as now, then 128x128 smaller or larger 512x512). First thing which wouldn't work here however would be positioning them correctly over certain X and Y coordinates in order to fit smaller sims around larger ones, which would end up causing grid coordinates such as 1000.5, 1001.25. Second, I don't think the client actually supports simulators larger then 256 x 256 so the client would probably need modifying as well to do that. Third, exporting and importing settings and stuff (such as terrain or .oar archives) between different sizes of simulators could be problematic and buggy. And fourth, larger single sims could possibly cause performance issues even with computers in our days. If some of these issues didn't exist though this might be doable and could be fun. Anyway the best practical way at the moment are region groups of 2x2 or 3x3 or how many you wish for having a larger square, which isn't that bad in the end. From: adama...@hotmail.com To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:46:04 -0300 Subject: [Opensim-dev] Regions larger then 256x256 Like there are the problem of performance when we have more than 15/20 avatares inside one sim , I believe that is important to have regions smaller than 256x256. By example, a mini-region having 32x32. Using grid and a server for each of 64 glued mini-regions we can have a superpopulated area of 256x256 running well. Americo check out the rest of the Windows Live™. More than mail–Windows Live™ goes way beyond your inbox. More than messages _ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=createwx_url=/friends.aspxmkt=en-us___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal for a cleanup/correction of the region-module system
This is more to do with how we use Mono.Addins, but we really should make it a lot easier to separate the various UGAIM servers, so that each one can be in its own directory without needing the other UGAIM exe's to be in there. By default we have the loading of plugins referencing all the UGAIM servers. So that if all the UGAIM servers.exe's aren't in that directory, then no plugins will be loaded. Mike Mazur mma...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:59:26 +0200 Ryan McDougall wrote: 1. Can we unify RegionModules with IPlugin system I did a while ago? This would mean learning and using Mono.Addins, or ExtensionLoader if that is Mono.Addins's replacement. I'd like to suggest sticking with Mono.Addins. While it is a bit big, has a steeper learning curve and requires more calls to load a module, it may prove to be pretty useful in the future when people want to do more complicated things with modules. It is being actively developed by a wider community, is used in large projects and is based on the Eclipse add-in engine[1]. ExtensionLoader is nice and small and loads modules well. If/when OpenSim graduates to more complex module use cases, we may find ExtensionLoader lacking. Any missing features in ExtensionLoader would need to be coded by those who need it. Mike [1] http://www.mono-project.com/Introduction_to_Mono.Addins ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
Well, one solution to getting a lot of people on at one time would be a
heavy weight bot that loaded a system the same as a client does. It
would need to be based on a viewer code base, but be light enough on the
client side to run hundreds of connections/accounts.
Teravus Ovares wrote:
Mostly, the road block to working to solve this issue is actually
getting many people on a region at once consistantly.It's hard to
coordinate tons of people on in a testing scenario :)
Anyway, yes, noted!
Teravus
On 1/26/09, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com wrote:
One problem with SL that is addressed quite often is the limited number
of AVs that one region can hold ('the number of people on an island').
This comes up in the 'big number' discussion and especially in nearly
every meeting scenario that is of high interest to the community.
Somehow this is also influencing the 'relevance of SL' (and thus
OpenSim)technology and grid technology in general ('I can have hundreds
of people in a Habbo place but only around 50 in SL')
I really want to dodge the official 'big numbers' discussion by stating
what would happen when there would be hundreds of people in one IRC
channel and all of them were writing at the same time. But I do believe
that one viable 'big number' scenario is a podium discussion where a
couple of persons are discussing and most of the other people are
listening/watching/reading in general. Or a sports event of sorts, with
- well :-) - 22 people acting and many more watching.
So what I think what would be valuable is a 'lightweight agent'
construction. This would be an AV that basically can't do much except
listening/watching/reading, she especially couldn't rezz anything. It's
a bit like the 'spectator mode' in some games. This way there could be
big numbers of watchers, thus giving more people the opportunity to
attend a meeting - practically increasing the number of virtual beings
in a region, without bringing the region down.
I could think of at least two ways to acchieve this:
- a camera woman AV that 'lightweight agents' could hook up to, using
the client only as a viewer; this would be a bit like a video stream,
just with less impact, since the rendering is still done in the viewer.
- a stripped down agent that got rid of everything that causes too much
stress on either network or server. Unfortunately I don't know how to do
that because I don't know the OpenSim construction enough. These
lightweight agents could have a representation (a sphere?) while they
are online, a distinct place and the ability to look around and maybe
move slowly.
By having something like that we could get rid of the 'theres just a
small number of AVs in every region' dilemma.
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Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require some major hardware/pipes to achieve. Neb ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so). and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero inventory and not chatting and doing real world things, pcampbot is a horrible representaion of 1000 like i said before every 1000 pcampbots is probably not even equal to 20 real world avatars actually doing something with the simulator. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Nebadon Izumi nebadon2...@gmail.comwrote: the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require some major hardware/pipes to achieve. Neb ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
If a 1700 prim avatar using every attach point is not a mildly extreme case I don't know what is! J The same rules apply to OpenSim as it does on SL - performance and headcount depends on the crowd you get in for an event and the design of the sim itself. Build a sim with many thousands of highly textured prims and complex scripts and you might as well just cut down your ram, step down your processor, and accept defeat. Code optimisation is nothing without a little care and attention on the part of the sim designer to make the experience as smooth as possible for attendees. Maybe there's a requirement / option to have an event mode where you block all attachments and deny access to inventory items to maximise the number of visitors if you really want to get 1000 users in a confined space, and consider using some texture simplification on the regions in question, configurable for a region server at startup? From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: 26 January 2009 17:01 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so). and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero inventory and not chatting and doing real world things, pcampbot is a horrible representaion of 1000 like i said before every 1000 pcampbots is probably not even equal to 20 real world avatars actually doing something with the simulator. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Nebadon Izumi nebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require some major hardware/pipes to achieve. Neb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 25/01/2009 18:13 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
well i think your sorta missing the point, say i did reduce my avatar login footprint by 10, that would only mean that if 10 people simulatanously logged in, which if your talking about 1000 avatars at once is going to happen, it means that you will get the same results if 10 avatars hit at once, so honestly even if we reduce the footprint by 90% we still have the same problem on logins, the biggest problem i see is mass login, when your talking about getting 1000 avatars into a region for a single event, especially if it crashes you could be potentially looking at over 100 avatars trying to log in at the same time, how do we handle this?? if your talking about 1000 avatars you need to talk about exteme usage case, not just fractional usage. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Chris Hart ch...@codetorque.co.uk wrote: If a 1700 prim avatar using every attach point is not a mildly extreme case I don't know what is! J The same rules apply to OpenSim as it does on SL – performance and headcount depends on the crowd you get in for an event and the design of the sim itself. Build a sim with many thousands of highly textured prims and complex scripts and you might as well just cut down your ram, step down your processor, and accept defeat. Code optimisation is nothing without a little care and attention on the part of the sim designer to make the experience as smooth as possible for attendees. Maybe there's a requirement / option to have an event mode where you block all attachments and deny access to inventory items to maximise the number of visitors if you really want to get 1000 users in a confined space, and consider using some texture simplification on the regions in question, configurable for a region server at startup? *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon Izumi *Sent:* 26 January 2009 17:01 *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so). and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero inventory and not chatting and doing real world things, pcampbot is a horrible representaion of 1000 like i said before every 1000 pcampbots is probably not even equal to 20 real world avatars actually doing something with the simulator. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Nebadon Izumi nebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: the only bad thing about bringing up the Pcampbot login test was at the time pcampbot was not pulling assets down from the scene locally to itself, so realisticly those 1000 pcampbots were probably generating about the same amount of login traffic that about 10-20 avatars would have been likely. The only real solution to this problem will likely be load balancing and many servers working together to break the 100 avatar limit, the chances that 1 server will be serving 1000 avatars is completely impossible, i honestly dont think we can ever optimize it enough for even the fastest servers to deal in 1000 avatars, though i do hope we can atleast get to around 100 or more. One test I have done recently that throws a monkey wrench into my thinking about this, my Region (OKC) Ka which is about 12000 prims and running just over 1000 scripts, when trying to log into the region with just 1 avatar that is wearing a 1700 prim avatar that uses every single attach point, i am 100% unable to log into the sim ever. One other thing to note is that my avatar has between 11k-12k inventory items and basiclly trying to access any simulator with more than about 1000 variously textured prims in the ballpark of about 500+ textures or so (even afer running the predecode-j2k) i am unable to log in at all. So again if 1 avatar cant access the sim, i personallly dont see 1000 avatars entering a simulator anytime soon if at all ever, atleast like I said in the 1 server world, this is probably going to require some major hardware/pipes to achieve. Neb No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 25/01/2009 18:13 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Source tree cleanup
while we are on the topic of cleaning up: could we move OpenSim/Region/Modules/* to (appropriate) subdirectories under OpenSim/Region/Environment/Modules? at least to me it's not clear what the difference between those two directories is (made worse by the fact that we have SvnSerializer in OpenSim/Region/Modules but the OAR archiver in OpenSim/Region/Environment/Modules. if there are no objections, i'd even do the move ;-) cheers, DrS/dirk -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] A Online HyperGrid Link list forOpenSim's 2ndbirthday
I have had a few region/grid owners hint that HG is too complex to setup for our Birthday. !!WRONG!! I find is is very easy to enable, fast and reliable in use. Though I prefer to use a scripted TP with osfunction to the map, either method is simple. Show off your hard work, for the virtual tourists. If I can, anyone can. - Original Message - From: Diva Canto To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] A Online HyperGrid Link list forOpenSim's 2ndbirthday These are all great ideas. The only problem is whether someone will be able to pull this off in time for the celebrations. I might take on this, except that I have another trip coming up, and I'd rather spend my OpenSim-time until then making sure that TPs are rock solid; so I don't think I'll have time to do this. The next best thing is this list: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Hypergrid#Public_Hypergrid_Nodes People can add their node info there; and everyone else can add that info to their startup_commands or whatever other link-region means they use. In the UCI Grid, for example, I already have several of those nodes on the Map; I will add all of them as they show up on that list. And i'll also add any others that are not there but that show up on this other list: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Second_Birthday So, unless someone pulls something automated soon, plan B is to do it manually. MW wrote: well I wasn't planning/hoping to be the one who hosted this list myself. I was hoping that someone in the community would make a simple website and host it. I guess if no one else takes it up, then I'll have to see. Brianna wwwe...@gmail.com wrote: I changed the scope of what we were building for a Birthday event and deleted Hypergrid work. Yours will be perfect, please drop the info so we can place a teleporter - web link for our guests to your show n tell for Hypergrid. Thanks MW - Original Message - From: MW To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] A Online HyperGrid Link list for OpenSim's 2ndbirthday I think this is a great idea, but the questions that come to mind, are: how is the mapping handled for these sub lists and how does a user say that they don't want these sub lists on their map. I think the number of options required could be quite high and think its something that needs some thought before any attempt to add these functions is made. Dahlia Trimble dahliatrim...@gmail.com wrote: It might also be interesting if there could be some sort of p2p transfer of hypergrid links, where a web site might send a list of seed regions, and as a link were made of each of those regions, another exchange could occur where each party exchanges a list of public regions. That way a larger grid could configure itself and individual regions could join in without requiring an update to a central web site. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:11 AM, MW michaelwr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've just added some very initial support for reading Hypergrid link data from xml files, that includes support for the xml files being on a webserver. The xml file has a format like: Nini Section Name=Region1 Key Name=xloc Value=1002/ Key Name=yloc Value=1006 / Key Name=externalPort Value=9006 / Key Name=externalHostName Value=osl2.nac.uci.edu / Key Name=localName Value=OSGrid-Gateway / /Section Section Name=Region2 ... /Section ... /Nini And to make a region load it and create the links, you use the console command: link-region URI [excludeList] The excludeList parameter is so that certain links in those xml files are ignored. With the format: excludeListxml SectionName[;xml SectionName]. The main thinking for this is so that a single list for a certain group/event could be created. Then everyone interested in it, just adds their own region data to the list. But so they can also point their own region at that list, they just add the section name they used to the exclude list, so that it doesn't try to link to itself. If we can find a way of having a xml file on a webserver that people can add new entries to (maybe through a form script). Then I think it would be a good idea to have such a list for OpenSim's 2nd birthday. Although this idea really needs some sort of automapping or at least better configuration of the map locations that the regions are placed at. I think if everyone just agrees that a certain area on the map [so say x,y - x+25, y+25] is reserved for link regions, that it is workable for now. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list
Re: [Opensim-dev] Proposal for a cleanup/correction of the region-module system
Ideia Boa wrote: I think it was a te5t not a te2t :) oop5, m3 b4d. Dr5/d1rk Dr Scofield wrote: MW wrote: But do we standardize on one variant or standardise on that? Sorry couldn't stop myself :) that was a test :-) or was that a tezt? :-D DrS/dirk ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- dr dirk husemann virtual worlds research ibm zurich research lab SL: dr scofield drscofi...@xyzzyxyzzy.net http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/ RL: h...@zurich.ibm.com - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/ ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator
Currently, PCampBot downloads all of the textures for each client it connects with. This makes it a better load tester then it was previously. Best Regards Teravus On 1/26/09, Dirk Krause dirk.kra...@pixelpark.com wrote: My original point was exactly the one both of you made – there are two different use cases: 1) the ability to access a full featured avatar with the ability to walk, talk, dress etc - like it is now. I didn't want to touch this first, but when I read Sean Dague analysis (keyword: N^2) from a couple of hours ago, I am not sure if everything is done from a technical architecture side to achieve the best performance. So my point was rather 2) that there is a use case for this 'event mode'. But instead of blocking all attachments and Ruth everyone, I would introduce this mode of what I called a lightweight agent. Being able to create events with a couple of people acting and the majority of people recepting it, could IMHO be a big advantage over the original SL limitation that could really make a difference from a strategic standpoint for OpenSim as a software solution. Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Chris Hart Gesendet: Montag, 26. Januar 2009 18:32 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator I certainly don't see 1000 on a single region as remotely possible under current architecture, not disputing that. I do have to wonder what people consider as being an event suitable for 1000 people in a single region – that's a lot of people in not a lot of space (though thinking in three dimensions might help), but what do you gain from such an event? Chat alone would be almost overwhelming, and with 95% of attendees not knowing how to pan the camera most of them would see nothing but the head of the person infront of them – so I guess if you want to emulate real life, you got it. You're right to push the parameters to the extreme, because in the absence of 1000 friends to test a simultaneous login, we all have to improvise, so if it's a case of loading up as many avatars as possible with all clothing layers made with high-res textures, wearing a thousand prims each, etc. then yes, it's not an entirely unreasonable scale test. From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: 26 January 2009 17:19 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator well i think your sorta missing the point, say i did reduce my avatar login footprint by 10, that would only mean that if 10 people simulatanously logged in, which if your talking about 1000 avatars at once is going to happen, it means that you will get the same results if 10 avatars hit at once, so honestly even if we reduce the footprint by 90% we still have the same problem on logins, the biggest problem i see is mass login, when your talking about getting 1000 avatars into a region for a single event, especially if it crashes you could be potentially looking at over 100 avatars trying to log in at the same time, how do we handle this?? if your talking about 1000 avatars you need to talk about exteme usage case, not just fractional usage. Neb On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Chris Hart ch...@codetorque.co.uk wrote: If a 1700 prim avatar using every attach point is not a mildly extreme case I don't know what is! ☺ The same rules apply to OpenSim as it does on SL – performance and headcount depends on the crowd you get in for an event and the design of the sim itself. Build a sim with many thousands of highly textured prims and complex scripts and you might as well just cut down your ram, step down your processor, and accept defeat. Code optimisation is nothing without a little care and attention on the part of the sim designer to make the experience as smooth as possible for attendees. Maybe there's a requirement / option to have an event mode where you block all attachments and deny access to inventory items to maximise the number of visitors if you really want to get 1000 users in a confined space, and consider using some texture simplification on the regions in question, configurable for a region server at startup? From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Nebadon Izumi Sent: 26 January 2009 17:01 To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] weird idea #1: lightweight agent/ spectator Minor mistake in my last posting, it should have read (8000 variously texture prims in the ballpark of about 500+ texures or so). and since i am recommenting again, i think its important that when we talk about 1000 users, we are not talking about 1000 ruths with zero inventory and not chatting and doing real
[Opensim-dev] weird idea #2: inworld applications
Hi, this thing came up when I was thinking about what to do for OpenSims 2nd birthday. I thought it would be really funny to reconstruct the Sony Home Arcades in OpenSim, basically for giggles. I unfortunately don't have access to Sony Home for now so I don't know exactly what effort it means to model this, being not a good builder myself (for reference - http://tinyurl.com/def8fn ) The interesting point would be the ability to play either MAME or C64 games on the machines in these 'OpenSim Home (tm) Arcades'. So I looked up a C# c64 emulator on the web ( http://tinyurl.com/bobw9y ) but then came to think where such an emulator would run. (the following holds probably true for all kinds of applications running in the OpenSim context, namely: - graphic-heavy c# or c++ applications - flash/silverlight/moonlight applications - 'co-browsing', works in Rex with this nice trick: http://therexfiles.cybertechnews.org/?p=183 ) So, to stick with the arcade example, the good question is - where does the process run? I think there are these possibilities in general 1) SERVER - the application totally runs on the server side. One av takes over the game machine and his key strokes are transmitted to the server (via HUD?) and the emulator creates the graphic output. This would be a series of textures (not really good) or a video stream of sorts. 2) CLIENT - the applications totally runs on the client. This is possibly the easiest way to implement it (and out of scope for opensim-dev) since it needs hacking the client. But just for the record: as soon as the client detects arcade.jp2 as the texture, it fires up ye old space invaders and renders2texture the graphic output to the client. Other people would see either a) nothing but the standard texture as long as they are not playing it or b) a screenshot every 5 secs or so, since the client sends every 5 secs or so a screenshot to the server, updating the view for the cheering bystanders c) the real game, since their clients also fire up the emulator, receive the key strokes from the current player (while they are near him) which must be sent from the server of course. 3) BOTH- the application runs on both server and client with synchronicity calls every N secs with some prediction by the client side when the calls don't get through fast enough (basically like networked physics in professional games works) All in all you are in synchronicity hell the more 'real' the output for everyone gets because there can be no real simultaneousness. So sorted by applications: - Physics: either only server sided (like it is now) which is sufficient for most use cases, or both when the physics is fast and heavy like in games. - Video: Number 2c is used to play video in SL right now - one av activates the script that start the media playing on all clients in the vicinity. if they didn't activate media support then they see nothing. If they did the video starts on all clients, probably 1 to N secs off each, depending on their network, also slowly drifting into asynchronicity the longer the video runs. If it should be more synchronous then a streaming server is mandatory. - Turn based games could be implemented completely on server side. So a simple text adventure (Zork, anyone) or even a MUD could be implemented even on a different server with a gateway of sort. Come to think of it this could even be a tty terminal. Same goes for - co-browsing web pages, powerpoint projectors Could be either server sided (like it is now via the php render trick) or client sided (via the Rex trick) So the interesting part stays where to implement, say, a moonlight application? Let's say people want to create micro/casual games or small apps,then it would be interesting to see whether there would be an infrastructure to hook these things into? I would even go so far that there could be a mechanism that handles LL or OS scripts in a way that it either runs on the client (libomv Test.exe with some script) or on the server side (the existing scripting architecture). Best regards, Dirk/Barth ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
