Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
Girts Zeltins wrote: Hello, As I see people stop discussing about all this, but I have check Open Group website and I check that price for CDE source are astronomical! In my opinion Open Group is providing too big price for CDE. It doesn’t cost such money. CDE source prices were not intended for individual users to purchase, but large corporations or institutions who could afford it easily. At one time, CDE/Motif licensing was a major component of TOG revenue, so they had to price it high enough to continue to afford their own salaries. (A TOG rep even used this as explanation for why they weren't open sourcing Motif at a LinuxWorld BoF I attended many years ago.) -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
As for CDE, it seems still maintained by Sun for their port (CDE 1.x). You could research on how this forks from the Open Group's CDE code. Using the included CDE that comes with Solaris seems a better solution for this timeframe as it also comes with docs (or did). At least we can track CDE through the legacy Solaris versions and support Sun's CDE based on that Sun's info. ~ Ken Mays - Original Message From: Girts Zeltins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:43:07 AM Subject: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future Hello, As I see people stop discussing about all this, but I have check Open Group website and I check that price for CDE source are astronomical! In my opinion Open Group is providing too big price for CDE. It doesn’t cost such money. Thank You. Kind Regards, Girts This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420k for $1,399/mo. Calculate new payment! www.LowerMyBills.com/lre ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
Hello, As I see people stop discussing about all this, but I have check Open Group website and I check that price for CDE source are astronomical! In my opinion Open Group is providing too big price for CDE. It doesn’t cost such money. Thank You. Kind Regards, Girts This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
Nicolas Linkert wrote: Apart from that: I always thought one would have to ship CDE in order to be a certified UNIX operating system? No, CDE is only required for UNIX98 Workstation compliance, which Solaris 10 isn't certified for, anyway. Solaris 10 does comply with UNIX2003, but UNIX2003 no longer contains an optional Workstation spec. -- Derek E. Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://riemann.solnetworks.net/~dlewis ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
If you really care so much for CDE, why don't you use Xfce? Xfce is a very fine desktop environment that can be made CDE-like with a few mouse-clicks. Apart from that: I always thought one would have to ship CDE in order to be a certified UNIX operating system? This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
It's not just about nostalgia or I-know-it attitude. I am one of the typical young user of Solaris and I find CDE more productive than either GNOME or KDE. It's not just the desktop, but the associated utilities. The integrated calendar "works" and is far more intuitive than most others (even including sunbird etc.). The "Note taker" application is a killer application and several more examples of utilities, which even though minimalistic, actually "work" and don't get in way of my work! So it's about productivity as much about anything else. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
On 11/16/06, De Togni Giacomo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I see another problem.In my opinion,the question is about maintaining a single version of Solaris for Enterprise and Desktop market.These two enviroments are quite different for many reasons.Ten years ago,we had Motif an CDE for all enviroments and this was ok.Then,with the arriving of Gnome and KDE,we have had a new challenge for UNIX in the desktop market .A challenge for a better user-friendly enviroment, for a better integrated desktop into the OS and a more simple OS management.So,why have not two versions of Solaris OS? Most of code should be shared from OpenSolaris project,we can add some characteristics for specific enviroment: this is a very solaris specific argument and has little to with opensolaris, different constraints too Please don't, having 2 different solaris distributions will split the efforts of the already limted developers that are working in solaris, that will certainly lead to lower overall quality of both distributions and will very likely confuse costumers. To sum up, it's a really nasty idea. on the other hand, you have opensolaris and (potentially) the number of developers is not so limited, youre free to grab the souces and start your own opensolaris distribution, others have and are quite successful, check nexenta for example. nacho ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
Hello De, Thursday, November 16, 2006, 5:32:13 PM, you wrote: DTG> I see another problem.In my opinion,the question is about DTG> maintaining a single version of Solaris for Enterprise and DTG> Desktop market.These two enviroments are quite different for many DTG> reasons.Ten years ago,we had Motif an CDE for all enviroments and DTG> this was ok.Then,with the arriving of Gnome and KDE,we have had a DTG> new challenge for UNIX in the desktop market .A challenge for a DTG> better user-friendly enviroment, for a better integrated desktop DTG> into the OS and a more simple OS management.So,why have not two DTG> versions of Solaris OS? Most of code should be shared from DTG> OpenSolaris project,we can add some characteristics for specific enviroment: DTG> Desktop release: drop CDE,add boot splash,more new code from DTG> opensolaris new projects into the system,more GTK+ apps and tools (for example...) DTG> Enterprise Release: maintain a strong compatibity with old DTG> software and hardware (for example...) In a way isn't it what Belenix or Nexenta are for? What for yet another distro? -- Best regards, Robertmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://milek.blogspot.com ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
De Togni Giacomo writes: > Desktop release: drop CDE,add boot splash,more new code from opensolaris new > projects into the system,more GTK+ apps and tools (for example...) > Enterprise Release: maintain a strong compatibity with old software and > hardware (for example...) One reason not to do it is that it spreads the available resources over multiple separate environments that must be maintained independently. Flexibility like that comes at a cost. The result will likely be lower overall quality, fewer features, and longer schedules as the two compete for attention. This is particularly true for the places where the underlying infrastructure is different. I can't say I'm a big fan of GNOME either (I'm still running twm in most places), but I appreciate the reason why exactly one default environment was chosen. -- James Carlson, KISS Network<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
>Desktop release: drop CDE,add boot splash,more new code from opensolaris new >projects into the sys tem,more GTK+ apps and tools (for example...) Why? What additional cost (apart from CDE) is there in distibuting CDE? >Enterprise Release: maintain a strong compatibity with old software and >hardware (for example...) I think it's a requirement for both to keep strong compatibility. Strong compatibility and progress do not exclude one another. Do you really want Six edition of Solaris? (When it turns out you can't do stuff with Windows XP Home that you really want to do, is that good?) The fragmentation of Windows will precipitate its downfall. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
I see another problem.In my opinion,the question is about maintaining a single version of Solaris for Enterprise and Desktop market.These two enviroments are quite different for many reasons.Ten years ago,we had Motif an CDE for all enviroments and this was ok.Then,with the arriving of Gnome and KDE,we have had a new challenge for UNIX in the desktop market .A challenge for a better user-friendly enviroment, for a better integrated desktop into the OS and a more simple OS management.So,why have not two versions of Solaris OS? Most of code should be shared from OpenSolaris project,we can add some characteristics for specific enviroment: Desktop release: drop CDE,add boot splash,more new code from opensolaris new projects into the system,more GTK+ apps and tools (for example...) Enterprise Release: maintain a strong compatibity with old software and hardware (for example...) This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
rlhamil wrote: > > Sure would be good if that petition (to TOG) to open > CDE > got somewhere. Very little Sun could do > unilaterally... > For those that are interested the petition is here, please consider signing it if you agree with its sentiments. http://www.marutan.net/cde/ and here http://www.petitiononline.com/opencde/petition.html Peter This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
The Metal L&F in Java 1.5 is Great! It's extensively different from Metal in Java 1.4 (which wasn't stellar). The Java 1.5 GTK L&F is a bit demented as far as colours and widgets go. Having played with some of the 1.6 betas (I'm yet to look at the new release candidate) it appears that Metal is still roughly the same as it was in 1.5, with the additional of a few cosmetic enhancements and text anti-aliasing. The GTK L&F in 1.6 is also vastly improved, if you like that sort of thing. All-in-all, I'm glad the default L&F is not GTK -- 1.5/1.6 Metal is quite nice to look at. Doug Scott wrote: Hello all, I am writing this to talk about Solaris and its future. I was experimenting with Solaris long time and I have found many things, which are, need to change in Solaris. Recently I was asked question about CDE, about its future and I had answer that Sun Microsystems don't plan to investment money in CDE. There are lots of people which prefer CDE for use it in Solaris and this will be biggest mistake to fully remove it from Solaris. CDE in Solaris almost has not changed since day one. I cannot see why it is a mistake for Sun to remove it from Solaris. If people from the community want to support (or update) it then fine, but I don't see why it is such a problem for Sun to finally stop making a variant of the Model T Ford :) It all comes down to the resources Sun has to throw at the desktop. I really don't think they could effectively support more then JDS at this time. This leaves a great opening for the community to step up and deliver what Sun can not. The second mistake of Solaris is that Java Desktop System is created as graphical desktop. It must be as theme for original GNOME! There is needed to be original GNOME 2.14, 2.16 in Solaris. I much prefer the current JDS theme to the default gnome theme. If you don't like the JDS theme, it is very simple to change. It all comes down to personal preference and what people are used to. Most people in the world are used to a "MS Windows" look and Feel. If you want to make the conversion from Windows to Solaris easier, then JDS is the way to go. If there will be done the said things then Solaris popularity will be bigger and market too because graphical desktop things are very important. People are watching not only on features but also on graphical desktop design! Graphical desktop design is very important for over 80% of people. Very important is if there are no unneeded lines, mistakes in colors, unneeded background colors in applications. One of them is Solaris Management Console 2.1 where are many errors. I totally agree here. Java apps on Solaris just don't look right (They SUCK!!!). Hopefully JDK 6 will help fix this, but maybe the default look and feel for Java apps on Solaris should be GTK+ rather than the ugly duckling "metal" theme. Doug This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org -- Regards, Joshua M. Clulow IT Consultant JMCtech - http://www.jmctech.com.au/ ABN:49 933 254 106 Mobile: +61 (412) 421 925 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
This was discussed awhile back during the CDE 2.1 and OpenMotif 2.3 campaign. You can do it through licensing or the Open* projects. You'll have to specify if you want Sun's support of CDE includd with Sun Solaris, or a community-supported CDE 2.1, or the community's support of Sun's CDE. A lot of attention is on KDE and GNOME, but support for CDE and OpenMotif is very possible. Ken Mays EarthLink,Inc. - Original Message From: Richard L. Hamilton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 6:34:54 PM Subject: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future drdoug wrote: [...] > CDE in Solaris almost has not changed since day one. > I cannot see why it is a mistake for Sun to remove it > from Solaris. If people from the community want to > support (or update) it then fine, but I don't see why > it is such a problem for Sun to finally stop making a > variant of the Model T Ford :) It's hardly that bad. While CDE on Solaris has not picked up anywhere near all the features of the OpenGroup CDE 2.x base, it nevertheless has a lot of enhancements (and bug fixes) over CDE 1.0. And it's way faster and lighter than JDS; and CDE and Motif had inherited features to make them more friendly to folks coming from the older Open Look environment (like tear-off menus, .text_extras_menu - the latter perhaps peculiar to Sun's implementation?). Sure would be good if that petition (to TOG) to open CDE got somewhere. Very little Sun could do unilaterally... One update that would be great before Motif is totally ignored (give or take major bugs): it's still missing the XmPrint APIs (bugid 4475595, I think). I know Sun wants everyone to stop doing anything new in Motif, but I just don't think that's realistic (although given that attitude, I'm surprised they haven't already removed the CDE and Motif header files). > It all comes down to the resources Sun has to throw > at the desktop. I really don't think they > could effectively support more then JDS at this time. > This leaves a great opening for the community to step > up and deliver what Sun can not. SFW (and blastwave too I think) have KDE; blastwave has plenty of other alternatives as well (at least as far as window manager/desktop alternatives go; there are a smaller number of underlying toolkits, of course). Perhaps a _few_ of the most popular ought to get folded into SFW? This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
drdoug wrote: [...] > CDE in Solaris almost has not changed since day one. > I cannot see why it is a mistake for Sun to remove it > from Solaris. If people from the community want to > support (or update) it then fine, but I don't see why > it is such a problem for Sun to finally stop making a > variant of the Model T Ford :) It's hardly that bad. While CDE on Solaris has not picked up anywhere near all the features of the OpenGroup CDE 2.x base, it nevertheless has a lot of enhancements (and bug fixes) over CDE 1.0. And it's way faster and lighter than JDS; and CDE and Motif had inherited features to make them more friendly to folks coming from the older Open Look environment (like tear-off menus, .text_extras_menu - the latter perhaps peculiar to Sun's implementation?). Sure would be good if that petition (to TOG) to open CDE got somewhere. Very little Sun could do unilaterally... One update that would be great before Motif is totally ignored (give or take major bugs): it's still missing the XmPrint APIs (bugid 4475595, I think). I know Sun wants everyone to stop doing anything new in Motif, but I just don't think that's realistic (although given that attitude, I'm surprised they haven't already removed the CDE and Motif header files). > It all comes down to the resources Sun has to throw > at the desktop. I really don't think they > could effectively support more then JDS at this time. > This leaves a great opening for the community to step > up and deliver what Sun can not. SFW (and blastwave too I think) have KDE; blastwave has plenty of other alternatives as well (at least as far as window manager/desktop alternatives go; there are a smaller number of underlying toolkits, of course). Perhaps a _few_ of the most popular ought to get folded into SFW? This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006, Doug Scott wrote: > CDE in Solaris almost has not changed since day one. I cannot see why > it is a mistake for Sun to remove it from Solaris. If people from the THat's quite simple: GNOME simply doesn't offer a good way for CDE to migrate to GNOME (yet). GNOME doesn't offer all the useful features that CDE does, and therefore, for some of us, CDE will remain the desktop of choice. FWIW, I *want* to migrate to GNOME/JDS, but the lack of migrating-from-CDE features is preventing me. Not everyone adopting GNOME comes from Windoze (or even thinks that WIndoze is a good UI). > community want to support (or update) it then fine, but I don't see why > it is such a problem for Sun to finally stop making a variant of the > Model T Ford :) At present, Sun has no plans to open source CDE. Therefore, people from the community can't relieve Sun of the update/support burden, even if they (the community members) wanted to. :-( > I much prefer the current JDS theme to the default gnome theme. If > you don't like the JDS theme, it is very simple to change. It all comes > down to personal preference and what people are used to. Most people in > the world are used to a "MS Windows" look and Feel. If you want to make > the conversion from Windows to Solaris easier, then JDS is the way to > go. Agreed. However, Sun has a huge customer base using CDE, so they should make the CDE -> GNOME migration easy for them too. -- Rich Teer, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, OpenSolaris CAB member President, Rite Online Inc. Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638 URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Re: About graphical desktops and Solaris future
> Hello all, > > I am writing this to talk about Solaris and its > future. I was experimenting with Solaris long time > and I have found many things, which are, need to > change in Solaris. > Recently I was asked question about CDE, about its > future and I had answer that Sun Microsystems don't > plan to investment money in CDE. There are lots of > people which prefer CDE for use it in Solaris and > this will be biggest mistake to fully remove it from > Solaris. CDE in Solaris almost has not changed since day one. I cannot see why it is a mistake for Sun to remove it from Solaris. If people from the community want to support (or update) it then fine, but I don't see why it is such a problem for Sun to finally stop making a variant of the Model T Ford :) It all comes down to the resources Sun has to throw at the desktop. I really don't think they could effectively support more then JDS at this time. This leaves a great opening for the community to step up and deliver what Sun can not. > The second mistake of Solaris is that Java Desktop > System is created as graphical desktop. It must be as > theme for original GNOME! There is needed to be > original GNOME 2.14, 2.16 in Solaris. I much prefer the current JDS theme to the default gnome theme. If you don't like the JDS theme, it is very simple to change. It all comes down to personal preference and what people are used to. Most people in the world are used to a "MS Windows" look and Feel. If you want to make the conversion from Windows to Solaris easier, then JDS is the way to go. > If there will be done the said things then Solaris > popularity will be bigger and market too because > graphical desktop things are very important. People > are watching not only on features but also on > graphical desktop design! Graphical desktop design is > very important for over 80% of people. > Very important is if there are no unneeded lines, > mistakes in colors, unneeded background colors in > applications. One of them is Solaris Management > Console 2.1 where are many errors. I totally agree here. Java apps on Solaris just don't look right (They SUCK!!!). Hopefully JDK 6 will help fix this, but maybe the default look and feel for Java apps on Solaris should be GTK+ rather than the ugly duckling "metal" theme. Doug This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
