Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
On Saturday 29 October 2005 23:20, Anders Johansson wrote: All of the examples you gave are self-sufficient, multi-platform applications that don't really depend on anything. So yes, doing everything yourself is clearly an option, but not everyone has the money to do it. I have no idea what you mean by dependencies then. Opera uses qt, mozilla uses gtk, openoffice uses all sorts of things, and of course they all use X Opera uses Qt, but more than once has problems with platform version (you have to use static version). IMHO Mozilla does not use gtk, but FF does. However, gtk is relatively small library with C API, so it is relatively easy to get things right with it. AFAIK OO.org doesn't depend on much more than Java. X is ancient technology with complete consortium behind it. Not everyone has that either. Software installation on Linux IS very much a problem. YaST, APT, smart, etc would not exist otherwise. I beg your pardon? What is the alternative? Windows Installer? RPM is a powerful tool for system administrator, but as ironic as it is, end user is much happier with windows installer :/. Rest assured, RPM is not a final word on software installation front. It will be sooner or later be redesigned by someone ( Red Hat? ). As a temporary ease-up, i was proposing defining way bigger base packages. It is almost completely unnecessary to package all the little base tools in separate packages causing enormous dependency jungle. Due to messed dependencies it is impossible to set up a system without them anyway. And this IS year 2005, you can expect the system to have some common elements in place. How would this help? Easiest way to understand it might be to look at the dependency graph. It's size would just collapse. 3rd party SW vendors and packagers would have a lot less configurations to test against. Heck, we could even use current 'package groups' as the baseline. If there would be just a few dependencies to fulfill during software installation, even the user might be able to get it right *without* additional tools. It's just a thought. Give it some time, -- // Janne - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse] Configuring Touchscreen
Hi I need some help setting up a touchscreen in suse. A LG L1510SF which uses the ITM Touch USB Touchscreen Driver. I think I have found the code I need, but I have no Idea of where to put it. Is this something I will have to patch in the kernel? The code I think I can use resides her: http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2005/Mar/3955.html It is signed by Vojtech Pavlik at SuSE Labs, SuSE CR. So it should be a fair chances to get this working. Right? -- Regards Kenneth Aar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
Janne Karhunen wrote: RPM is a powerful tool for system administrator, but as ironic as it is, end user is much happier with windows installer :/. Or CNR in Linspire... ;p I really think dependency hell could be avoided if the Open source community could begin to consolidate a few things. Take bugzilla for instance. Why hasn't anyone come up with the idea of making bugs easily available across distros and up and downstream searchable/redirectable? This way if a bug is filed in the wrong place we could redirect the bug to the right place without need for filing the bug again. Also if the bug is reported in different places or indeed is filed in several distros by different users we could more easily see where we should put our focus. Or if this is a up or downstream issue. If we transfer this kind of thinking to dependency issues, it would probably start solving itself in a short manner of time. Another Idea I'm thinking of is making the package managers do the dependency searches for you. Instead of letting a newbie search the web for a package he is missing. download it, install it and find that he is missing yet another package. The RPM could search the web for the user and come back with a dialog like this: You are missing package x. We can't find this package in your repos. But this package [package name X], found at www.example.org seems to be what you are missing. Should YAST download this package and install it for you? YES / NO NOTE: This may not be safe to do... blah blah blah. But if you have configured Apparmor correctly you should be reasonably protected against system failure. Just my 2 cents. -- Regards Kenneth Aar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kenneth Aar wrote: Janne Karhunen wrote: RPM is a powerful tool for system administrator, but as ironic as it is, end user is much happier with windows installer :/. Maybe. *Some* end-users prefer a windows installer. But it's not because they prefer to shoot themselves into the foot with an inferior software management concept that we should actually give them the gun. Everyone talking about end-users and desktop all the time. You seem to forget that Linux is also strong in the server room, where we have to keep on working on its adoption for mission-critical tasks. For things like those, having a very strict and powerful package management system is *crucial*. What you describe as dependency hell is a *feature* that's miles ahead of what Windows provides as software management facilities. You're asking for having bigger base packages, but many more people are asking to have *smaller* packages, better split into subpackages, because a) embedded systems: only run the bare minimum because of hardware constraints b) security: only run the bare minimum because any unused application that's installed is an additional potential security risk Don't just discard those very important aspects that are a key element of the stability of most Linux systems, just because you think Linux should be like Windows. Pushing Linux onto the desktop and for everyone's use should never, ever compromise the stability, consistency and technical superiority of Linux compared to Windows (and even to some Unix derivates). I really think dependency hell could be avoided if the Open source community could begin to consolidate a few things. Take bugzilla for instance. Why hasn't anyone come up with the idea of making bugs easily available across distros and up and downstream searchable/redirectable? This way if a bug is filed in the wrong place Amongst others, KDE and GNOME have a bugzilla. Whenever someone working for a distribution (SUSE, Redhat, Fedora, Debian, ...) notices a bug or an improvement, he reports it upstream. It's true for many other projects as well. we could redirect the bug to the right place without need for filing the bug again. Also if the bug is reported in different places or indeed is filed in several distros by different users we could more easily see where we should put our focus. Or if this is a up or downstream issue. Why do you get the impression that's not already happening ? :) If we transfer this kind of thinking to dependency issues, it would probably start solving itself in a short manner of time. Not really. Package dependencies are related to packaging. It's none of the amarok developers' business if when installing my amarok 1.3.5 RPMs, you get a missing dependency on e.g. libmad.so.X Another Idea I'm thinking of is making the package managers do the dependency searches for you. Instead of letting a newbie search the web for a package he is missing. download it, install it and find that he is missing yet another package. The RPM could search the web for the user and come back with a dialog like this: Err... I wonder how you're managing your Linux system. Ever heard of YaST2, y2pmsh, yum, yumex, apt-rpm, aptitude, smart, ... ? You are missing package x. We can't find this package in your repos. But this package [package name X], found at www.example.org seems to be what you are missing. Should YAST download this package and install it for you? YES / NO ... That's a valid point. The only issue I see nowadays with not finding dependencies is when you install packages from a 3rd party repository that depends on another package that's in another 3rd party repository. e.g. you install some package from my (suser-guru) repository that requires another package from packman, and you don't have the packman repository in your installation sources That's really the only situation where we have to improve things. Everything else is working really fine, given you're using a capable package management frontend (such as YaST2, y2pmsh, smart, yum, apt-rpm, aptitude, yumex, ...). Actually the packman folks and I started discussing that idea with the SUSE staff, to have YaST2 fetch a list of available 3rd party repositories regularely and propose a checklist to the user, so she can easily add another repository. That could also make it possible to say you're trying to install xxx that requires yyy. but yyy is available from installation source (repository) zzz. do you want to add zzz to your list of installation sources ? But actually that involves a number of issues, especially from the legal point of view. Packman and my repository include a number of packages that are .. well... touchy for patent licenses in some countries (mostly the USA), like mad, lame, mplayer, ... AFAIK Novell's legal department is currently checking whether something like that is feasible or not. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser
[opensuse] Wlan doesn't start at boot time
Hi all, I just installed OpenSUSE 10.0 on my desktop PC.I almost solved everything and it installed my printer and scanner (wow, it made it automatically).I also managed to show my Linksys WMP54G wireless lan card.The operating system sees the card but everytime i boot into system, i have to type dhcpcd -G http://192.168.1.1 wlan0 as root.On my last distro, i just changed the permissions as 755 and put a script includes that command into init.d and worked fine, but on SUSE i couldn't get it working.I even tried it with a suid bit but no luck.Is there any way to get it connected automatically at boot ? I don't want to use NetGO.
Re: [opensuse] Wlan doesn't start at boot time
On 30/10/05, Ilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I just installed OpenSUSE 10.0 on my desktop PC.I almost solved everything and it installed my printer and scanner (wow, it made it automatically).I also managed to show my Linksys WMP54G wireless lan card.The operating system sees the card but everytime i boot into system, i have to type dhcpcd -G http://192.168.1.1 wlan0 as root.On my last distro, i just changed the permissions as 755 and put a script includes that command into init.d and worked fine, but on SUSE i couldn't get it working.I even tried it with a suid bit but no luck.Is there any way to get it connected automatically at boot ? I don't want to use NetGO. Dear Ilker, In case it is of use to you, I've had this problem (or one that sounds similar). The workaround that works for me has been to disable WEP and then the wireless network comes up on boot. I'd like to go back to using WEP at some point but it's ok for now. I hope this is helpful! 'ö-Dzin -- 'ö-Dzin Tridral Caerdydd, Cymru www.spacious-passion.org http://www.spacious-passion.org
[opensuse] Network Problems after Xen Installation
Hello, I installed Xen with this manual http://www.opensuse.org/Installing_Xen3 After reboot my network interfaces doesn't work. Is there a manual available howto configurate the xen bridge? Can this be done by YaST? Regards, Andi - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Will fuse be part of suse-10.1?
On Sunday 30 October 2005 12:46, Richard Bos wrote: Short question: Will fuse be part of suse-10.1? I noticed that Pascal already provides an rpm, but it would be nice to have fuse be part of suse10.1 The kernel module is already a part of 10.0. Why not get the alpha version of 10.1 and see for yourself if the tools are in 10.1. That's what the alpha versions are there for - audience participation - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
On Sunday 30 October 2005 11:45, Pascal Bleser wrote: RPM is a powerful tool for system administrator, but as ironic as it is, end user is much happier with windows installer :/. Maybe. *Some* end-users prefer a windows installer. Let's be fair here - i would say 95% of them do. That's pretty drastic figure. We definitely need to be asking why the case is such. Tools built on top of RPM are not really helping much. But it's not because they prefer to shoot themselves into the foot with an inferior software management concept that we should actually give them the gun. Let's not move the target now. Nobody is really taking anything away. Everyone talking about end-users and desktop all the time. You seem to forget that Linux is also strong in the server room, where we have to keep on working on its adoption for mission-critical tasks. For things like those, having a very strict and powerful package management system is *crucial*. No-one is forgetting this either. I'm well aware that most of the money Linux is making comes from the server room. What you're really saying there is circular reasoning; Linux will stay away from the desktop as long as the software installation and 3rd party development is as bad as it is. So this is contributing significantly to the fact that 3rd party commercial SW vendors are avoiding Linux. Due to the dependency hassle it's almost impossible to support anything else than some very specific distribution and it's version. And I'm not saying what ever i proposed will solve this, it doesn't. It would just be the first step. What you describe as dependency hell is a *feature* that's miles ahead of what Windows provides as software management facilities. Depends on the point of view. Windows does not allow creating broken installations - basic elements to be expected from modern desktop are always in place. Example: 3rd party SW vendor can safely expect the MSIE html rendering component to be there. He can build on it. This is not the case with Linux. There is no common base, and there definitely should be. That said, let's take an example of RH Enterprise Linux. It's minimal installation is roughly 550 megabytes. RH does not really support systems stripped to be smaller than this as things will start to break. So what good does it do for the user to have the system split into 1000 small packages instead of just 10-20? You're asking for having bigger base packages, but many more people are asking to have *smaller* packages, better split into subpackages, because a) embedded systems: only run the bare minimum because of hardware constraints Actually, once again smaller packages are actually hurting instead of helping here, if it's a system that customer can install software to. One of the most successful embedded systems currently available, Nokia Series 60 platform, consists of just half a dozen packages. And that's exactly why commercial companies are able to create and successfully deploy applications on it. Then again, if it's a system you can't install applications to, user does not care a jack shit what kind of a mess it is internally. If (as I suspect) you were talking about stripping the system during fixed embedded system development, i don't think anyone really cares how this is done. Why would you have RPM repository in such system anyway? b) security: only run the bare minimum because any unused application that's installed is an additional potential security risk This is true, but i wasn't talking about applications. I was talking about the base system - components you need to have in place anyway. Don't just discard those very important aspects that are a key element of the stability of most Linux systems, just because you think Linux should be like Windows. Now that HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with anything i proposed. How do people always find this 'argument'? Pushing Linux onto the desktop and for everyone's use should never, ever compromise the stability, consistency and technical superiority of Linux compared to Windows (and even to some Unix derivates). And that is not done here either.. .. That's a valid point. The only issue I see nowadays with not finding dependencies is when you install packages from a 3rd party repository that depends on another package that's in another 3rd party repository. e.g. you install some package from my (suser-guru) repository that requires another package from packman, and you don't have the packman repository in your installation sources That's really the only situation where we have to improve things. Uh-oh. Take some time to think this over, please. -- // Janne - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
On Sunday 30 October 2005 11:24, Kenneth Aar wrote: Janne Karhunen wrote: RPM is a powerful tool for system administrator, but as ironic as it is, end user is much happier with windows installer :/. Or CNR in Linspire... ;p I really think dependency hell could be avoided if the Open source community could begin to consolidate a few things. Take bugzilla for instance. Why hasn't anyone come up with the idea of making bugs easily available across distros and up and downstream searchable/redirectable? This way if a bug is filed in the wrong place we could redirect the bug to the right place without need for filing the bug again. Also if the bug is reported in different places or indeed is filed in several distros by different users we could more easily see where we should put our focus. Or if this is a up or downstream issue. See article on Mark Shuttleworth in Linux Format Magazine October 2005 where he talks about not only this issue of distributing patches between distros but also the more general one of truly collaborative computing. Paul -- Paul Hewlett - CottonPickinMinds - www.cottonpickinminds.co.za Tel: +27 21 852 8812 Cel: +27 84 420 9282 Fax: +27 86 672 0563 -- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 10:45 +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote: snip If we transfer this kind of thinking to dependency issues, it would probably start solving itself in a short manner of time. Not really. Package dependencies are related to packaging. It's none of the amarok developers' business if when installing my amarok 1.3.5 RPMs, you get a missing dependency on e.g. libmad.so.X Maybe not the developers but certainly the packagers business. If the RPM is being put together for a specific distro, which in the case of suse they are, then it -is- the packagers business that missing programs are also provided in the repos they use thus reducing some of the dependency hell. If users what to go outside of suse repos, whether provided by suse or suse contributers, then they need to understand -they- (the users) are responsible for obtaining other required packages. I stopped using apt-rpm for this very reason, the packager put together an RPM (for some suse version) that required a newer version of some library and did not also provide that package. You are missing package x. We can't find this package in your repos. But this package [package name X], found at www.example.org seems to be what you are missing. Should YAST download this package and install it for you? YES / NO ... That's a valid point. The only issue I see nowadays with not finding dependencies is when you install packages from a 3rd party repository that depends on another package that's in another 3rd party repository. e.g. you install some package from my (suser-guru) repository that requires another package from packman, and you don't have the packman repository in your installation sources Precisely why it is the packagers responsibility to provide all of the required packages. If it cannot be done legally then the package should not be provided at all. CYA That's really the only situation where we have to improve things. Everything else is working really fine, given you're using a capable package management frontend (such as YaST2, y2pmsh, smart, yum, apt-rpm, aptitude, yumex, ...). Actually the packman folks and I started discussing that idea with the SUSE staff, to have YaST2 fetch a list of available 3rd party repositories regularely and propose a checklist to the user, so she can easily add another repository. That could also make it possible to say you're trying to install xxx that requires yyy. but yyy is available from installation source (repository) zzz. do you want to add zzz to your list of installation sources ? This would be absolutely fantastic. But actually that involves a number of issues, especially from the legal point of view. Packman and my repository include a number of packages that are .. well... touchy for patent licenses in some countries (mostly the USA), like mad, lame, mplayer, ... AFAIK Novell's legal department is currently checking whether something like that is feasible or not. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ken Schneider wrote: On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 10:45 +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote: snip If we transfer this kind of thinking to dependency issues, it would probably start solving itself in a short manner of time. Not really. Package dependencies are related to packaging. It's none of the amarok developers' business if when installing my amarok 1.3.5 RPMs, you get a missing dependency on e.g. libmad.so.X Maybe not the developers but certainly the packagers business. If the RPM is being put together for a specific distro, which in the case of suse they are, then it -is- the packagers business that missing programs are also provided in the repos they use thus reducing some of the dependency hell. If users what to go outside of suse repos, whether That's precisely what I meant ;) It's the packagers' job, not the developers'. provided by suse or suse contributers, then they need to understand -they- (the users) are responsible for obtaining other required packages. I stopped using apt-rpm for this very reason, the packager put together an RPM (for some suse version) that required a newer version of some library and did not also provide that package. You are missing package x. We can't find this package in your repos. But this package [package name X], found at www.example.org seems to be what you are missing. Should YAST download this package and install it for you? YES / NO ... That's a valid point. The only issue I see nowadays with not finding dependencies is when you install packages from a 3rd party repository that depends on another package that's in another 3rd party repository. e.g. you install some package from my (suser-guru) repository that requires another package from packman, and you don't have the packman repository in your installation sources Precisely why it is the packagers responsibility to provide all of the required packages. If it cannot be done legally then the package should not be provided at all. CYA That's mostly correct. Tell that to the many users who whine about DeCSS, proprietary codec and MP3 support ;) But on the other hand, we packagers definately want to get together and avoid having to package something a dozen times, because a) it's redundant work, and it's our unpaid spare time b) it's only causing issues for the end-users, package conflicts, etc.. That's why a single repository is not necessarely consistent when used alone, without some other repositories. At Packman we do have that rule: don't have dependencies towards packagers that are not provided in Packman or in the base SUSE distribution. But Packman is by far the largest community package repository for SUSE Linux and it's feasible there. It is not necessarely doable for other, smaller repositories. That's really the only situation where we have to improve things. Everything else is working really fine, given you're using a capable package management frontend (such as YaST2, y2pmsh, smart, yum, apt-rpm, aptitude, yumex, ...). Actually the packman folks and I started discussing that idea with the SUSE staff, to have YaST2 fetch a list of available 3rd party repositories regularely and propose a checklist to the user, so she can easily add another repository. That could also make it possible to say you're trying to install xxx that requires yyy. but yyy is available from installation source (repository) zzz. do you want to add zzz to your list of installation sources ? This would be absolutely fantastic. Yes, and I think it would solve the remaining dependency hell issues. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDZMjSr3NMWliFcXcRAjXlAJ9+DCiYtiJ7nxCnmATMvlYgI1mKowCguYSq d/QAhtpOPs1VuWI+yLhrxpg= =BaAj -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
On Sunday 30 October 2005 13:16, Ken Schneider wrote: Precisely why it is the packagers responsibility to provide all of the required packages. If it cannot be done legally then the package should not be provided at all. CYA There is also a difference between hard and soft requirements. A hard requirement is one that is needed for the software to work at all. A soft requirement is one that can be used if present, but isn't strictly needed. libmad is clearly a soft requirement, so it shouldn't be listed as a hard one. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Janne Karhunen wrote: On Sunday 30 October 2005 11:45, Pascal Bleser wrote: RPM is a powerful tool for system administrator, but as ironic as it is, end user is much happier with windows installer :/. Maybe. *Some* end-users prefer a windows installer. Let's be fair here - i would say 95% of them do. That's pretty drastic figure. We definitely need to be asking why the case is such. because 95% = Windows user market share on the desktop .. ? Let's face it: most end users just don't know anything beyond Windows. Just because they want it to look like Windows, including its many defects, is not a reason for making Linux distributions like that. Tools built on top of RPM are not really helping much. I think that's a serious misconception. The package management backend is a major asset of most Linux distributions, and it's a key feature to provide stability (dependencies being installed), quality and security (a well-defined, common package upgrade mechanism). What may be argued upon is that there are different package management backends (let's just keep RPM and dpkg, others being either highly experimental (conary), unfinished (conary) or unable to fulfill the role (slackware)) and, hence, you don't have a single package format to cover all Linux distributions. That's definately the kind of issue faced by commercial vendors. Admittedly, and I'm certainly amongst the first to critize that, distributions don't unify their packaging schemes. What I mean is that e.g. the project libfoo is packaged as libfoo + libfoo-doc + libfoo-devel on Fedora, as libfoo1 + libfoo1-devel on Mandriva, libfoo + libfoo-dev on Debian and libfoo + libfoo-devel (or just libfoo) on SUSE. rant But I don't see any hope for unifying that. Linux distributions don't want to make that compatible, don't talk to each other. Never mind if they're commercial (Redhat, SUSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu, ...) or community (Debian, Slackware). The first probably don't want this because of their market shares, the latter because of ideologic/religious reasons. This is not intended to be Debian flaming, as I highly respect their excellent work, and Debian has a lot of excellent features. But let's face it, most Debian packagers/committers are quite convinced their way is the best and don't really give much about other distributions. Just see the state of LSB support in Debian - admittedly, it got better, but it took a couple of years and is still far from being complete - compare Debian init scripts with SUSE... actually... on Redhat/Fedora it's different, again.. because they don't give a about LSB either. While LSB is geared towards solving part of these issues, I don't see the overwhelming industry/community support for it. SUSE probably is the only really LSB compliant distribution. And Redhat doesn't care, they're the market leader in the enterprise sector. But maybe that's just me being wrong or too pessimistic about LSB ;) /rant But let's get back to the thread... ;) I think we definately have to precisely define what we're talking about, as it seems we're mixing two IMHO different topics here: - - end-users coming from Windows and who want Linux to look and behave exactly like Windows - - commercial vendors who want to package their applications for various Linux distributions But it's not because they prefer to shoot themselves into the foot with an inferior software management concept that we should actually give them the gun. Let's not move the target now. Nobody is really taking anything away. But you implied RPM being an issue, RPM frontends being crap. Where I disagree. YaST2's Software Management module does more than a decent job at installing packages and its dependencies properly. Everyone talking about end-users and desktop all the time. You seem to forget that Linux is also strong in the server room, where we have to keep on working on its adoption for mission-critical tasks. For things like those, having a very strict and powerful package management system is *crucial*. No-one is forgetting this either. I'm well aware that most of the money Linux is making comes from the server room. What you're I didn't mention money. I meant *users*. You seem to discard people using Linux in the server room and who want features that are in direct opposition with what you're asking for. really saying there is circular reasoning; Linux will stay away from the desktop as long as the software installation and 3rd party development is as bad as it is. So this is contributing significantly to the fact that 3rd party commercial SW vendors are avoiding Linux. Oh, I never said that, I didn't even imply that. Linux won't stay away from the desktop. Actually, Linux is already very usable on the desktop. I, and many others, do that every single day. Actually, it's even far superior as a desktop platform than Windows. It always depends on
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 14:21 +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ken Schneider wrote: snip Precisely why it is the packagers responsibility to provide all of the required packages. If it cannot be done legally then the package should not be provided at all. CYA That's mostly correct. Tell that to the many users who whine about DeCSS, proprietary codec and MP3 support ;) But on the other hand, we packagers definately want to get together and avoid having to package something a dozen times, because a) it's redundant work, and it's our unpaid spare time b) it's only causing issues for the end-users, package conflicts, etc.. That's why a single repository is not necessarely consistent when used alone, without some other repositories. At Packman we do have that rule: don't have dependencies towards packagers that are not provided in Packman or in the base SUSE distribution. But Packman is by far the largest community package repository for SUSE Linux and it's feasible there. It is not necessarely doable for other, smaller repositories. I always include Packman as a YaST repository because it seems to always be complete and not make me chase all over the net looking for a required third party package. Keep up the GOOD work, it is -appreciated- more than you think. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse] Thunderbird localization not working in 10.0
Hi In Suse 10 I can't get the localization files for Norwegian to work in thunderbird. Installing the Norwegian extension in suse 9.3 worked flawlessly. Spell checking was also a problem, but that was solved by changing the privileges in opt/MozillaThunderbird/lib/components/myspell Any thoughts? -- Regards Kenneth Aar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
On Sunday 30 October 2005 16:15, Janne Karhunen wrote: I'm sorry, but that's not correct. As you're mentioning IE: Windows bundles a number of components. That's also one of its technical defects, because they're so tightly integrating into the operating system This goes off topic, but why is it bad thing to expect the system to have a HTML renderer in the year 2006 (earliest)? The bad thing isn't that it's there, the bad thing is that it's so tightly integrated that it's impossible to get rid of if you want to replace it with something else (yes, I put quotes there) that one cannot install Windows without a graphical user interface that uses at least 40 to 100MB of RAM, permanently, having a sh*tload of DLLs and applications running in memory, including IE. The fact is, it's almost as impossible to do this with Linux as well or you end up breaking many, many things. Applications are the first to suffer. That simply isn't true. You break graphical programs. apache and mysql will happily run on such a system Setting up embedded stuff like ultra-lite firewall should be a thing to worry for the firewall builder, not every frigging end user. In the end, stripping Linux to bare bones has very little real use. If you set up a server, rule number of 1 is to only install that which is necessary And, as we all know, that also implies a large number of security issues. Do we want that for Linux ? I don't think so. Okay, now you go off topic. Of course we could argue for ever whether integration is a good thing or not. I think it is, and it is one of the key design concepts of KDE for one. That's why I like it. If a commercial vendor requires libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0, fine. What you're talking about is rather having consistent and backwards-compatible APIs and ABIs. That's a one thing. But having the working ABI will not get the RPM to install. Of course it will, if the requirements are set properly in the rpm. A packager should only require what he requires, not irrelevant things As I said, ABI is the other thing. But making that truly stable for Linux is too much to ask right now. Just having the applications to install would be OK for now. Most ABIs actually are stable in Linux. It's only the kernel that keeps breaking, but the user space programs rarely see that - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Thunderbird localization not working in 10.0
Kenneth Aar a écrit : Hi Hi, In Suse 10 I can't get the localization files for Norwegian to work in thunderbird. Installing the Norwegian extension in suse 9.3 worked flawlessly. Spell checking was also a problem, but that was solved by changing the privileges in opt/MozillaThunderbird/lib/components/myspell Any thoughts? For french localization (spell and langpack), I first install .xpi files as normal user ... did not complain, but did not work. I then installed them as root and back to my normal account, the localisation worked when I lauch: # /usr/bin/thunderbird -contentLocale FR -UILocale fr-FR Hope it helped MaNU -- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
Yes, but things pile up. Packages depend on packages depend on packages etc. Packager has very hard time to get these right. And speaking of Avg. Joe trying to install them.. Anybody else looking forward the maturation of Klik? http://www.opensuse.org/SUPER_KLIK Cheers, Daniel
Re: [opensuse] Exporting Evolution address book, mail, to another machine.
Randall R Schulz wrote: Are you a programmer? There are virtually no trivial but useful programs, today. Uh? Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say. And what do you mean by I would submit Are you going to submit it or not? OK, you are right. So I have submitted a bug. See bugzilla #131515. Please add to it if you feel like it. :-) -- Regards Kenneth Aar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Thunderbird localization not working in 10.0
Reinhard Gimbel wrote: I had no trouble in incorporating german localization with my Thunderbird 1.0.6. What I did was just adding the localization as an extension. This is what I did too. On two freshly installed computers with SUSE 10 with two different copies (one from dvd and one with the 5 CDs). It was the first thing I tried next to installing thunderbird. -- Regards Kenneth Aar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Thunderbird localization not working in 10.0
Kenneth Aar schrieb: Reinhard Gimbel wrote: I had no trouble in incorporating german localization with my Thunderbird 1.0.6. What I did was just adding the localization as an extension. This is what I did too. On two freshly installed computers with SUSE 10 with two different copies (one from dvd and one with the 5 CDs). It was the first thing I tried next to installing thunderbird. Again, what are the access rights for the localization xpi (no-no.xpi ?) ? And where it has been located ? I grabbed the de-de.xpi, put it into a newly generated folder called language in /opt/MozillaThunderbird/lib and called [Extra]-[Extension] That's it. Hope this helps ! -- Never give up ! Best regards, Reinhard. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Wlan doesn't start at boot time
I have no encryption, and also system gone mad and i even cant connect to the net, i'm writing this mail on windows, hoping someone would help.Mywireless card is Linksys WMP54G.Hardware is present but it's not connecting.I can't configure dhcpd via Yast because it says there's a problem with config file. On 10/30/05, 'o-Dzin Tridral [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30/10/05, Ilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I just installed OpenSUSE 10.0 on my desktop PC.I almost solved everything and it installed my printer and scanner (wow, it made it automatically).I also managed to show my Linksys WMP54G wireless lan card.The operating system sees the card but everytime i boot into system, i have to type dhcpcd -G http://192.168.1.1 wlan0 as root.On my last distro, i just changed the permissions as 755 and put a script includes that command into init.d and worked fine, but on SUSE i couldn't get it working.I even tried it with a suid bit but no luck.Is there any way to get it connected automatically at boot ? I don't want to use NetGO. Dear Ilker, In case it is of use to you, I've had this problem (or one that sounds similar). The workaround that works for me has been to disable WEP and then the wireless network comes up on boot. I'd like to go back to using WEP at some point but it's ok for now. I hope this is helpful! 'ö-Dzin -- 'ö-Dzin Tridral Caerdydd, Cymru www.spacious-passion.org http://www.spacious-passion.org http://www.spacious-passion.org
Re: [opensuse] Wlan doesn't start at boot time
Hi ! Ilker wrote a top-post :-( : I have no encryption, and also system gone mad and i even cant connect to the net, i'm writing this mail on windows, hoping someone would help.Mywireless card is Linksys WMP54G.Hardware is present but it's not connecting.I can't configure dhcpd via Yast because it says there's a problem with config file. On 10/30/05, 'o-Dzin Tridral [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30/10/05, Ilker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I just installed OpenSUSE 10.0 on my desktop PC.I almost solved everything and it installed my printer and scanner (wow, it made it automatically).I also managed to show my Linksys WMP54G wireless lan card.The operating system sees the card but everytime i boot into system, i have to type dhcpcd -G http://192.168.1.1 wlan0 as root.On my last distro, i just changed the permissions as 755 and put a script includes that command into init.d and worked fine, but on SUSE i couldn't get it working.I even tried it with a suid bit but no luck.Is there any way to get it connected automatically at boot ? I don't want to use NetGO. Dear Ilker, In case it is of use to you, I've had this problem (or one that sounds similar). The workaround that works for me has been to disable WEP and then the wireless network comes up on boot. I'd like to go back to using WEP at some point but it's ok for now. I hope this is helpful! 'ö-Dzin I can use the Intel PRO/wireless 2200BG which is installed in my notebook without any problem with WPA-PSK even after booting. Are you using ndiswrapper to drive your WLAN ports ? I don't if this is related to your problems, but you should consider this in your analysis. -- Never give up ! Best regards, Reinhard. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Exporting Evolution address book, mail, to another machine.
On Sunday 30 October 2005 09:38, Kenneth Aar wrote: Pete Connolly wrote: I can see why there's no import facility for Evolution to Evolution transfer - you don't need it. I adamantly disagree. This is just the sort of thing that is dead easy to implement but is very obscure for newcomers to linux to find their way around. I would submit this as a usability bug to the evolution team. Point taken. For those of us who are used to just tarring up home directories to copy to a new machine or partition it is straightforward. Maybe a trivial little 'wizard' that tars and compresses the ~/.evolution and ~/.gconf folders then tells you what is the best step to take next (scp, write to CD/DVD etc.) would be useful. Sounds like a nice little starter project for someone - I'll have a look. Cheers Pete - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Thunderbird localization not working in 10.0
Reinhard Gimbel schrieb: I grabbed the de-de.xpi, put it into a newly generated folder called language in /opt/MozillaThunderbird/lib and called [Extra]-[Extension] I think I have found the culprit! It seems that the Norwegian languagepack can't be installed. I tried the German one and it worked like a charm. -- Grusse Kenneth Aar - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Exporting Evolution address book, mail, to another machine.
Kenneth, On Sunday 30 October 2005 10:19, Kenneth Aar wrote: Randall R Schulz wrote: Are you a programmer? There are virtually no trivial but useful programs, today. Uh? Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm saying that while it is truly easy to proclaim It is dead easy to implement feature X, it is not usually so easy to actually implement that feature. File format conversions are, in fact, notoriously tricky. And what do you mean by I would submit Are you going to submit it or not? OK, you are right. So I have submitted a bug. See bugzilla #131515. Please add to it if you feel like it. :-) Good. I'm in no position to contribute to that feature request because, as I pointed out in my previous post, I am a happy, happy KMail user and have only looked at Evolution in passing (the last time I did so, I had a 1280x1024 monitor, and Evolution had too much screen real estate tied up in extraneous stuff for my taste). Randall Schulz - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Hatfield wrote: Yes, but things pile up. Packages depend on packages depend on packages etc. Packager has very hard time to get these right. And speaking of Avg. Joe trying to install them.. Anybody else looking forward the maturation of Klik? http://www.opensuse.org/SUPER_KLIK Now Klik has very little to do with this. Or, rather, Klik definately does *not* solve this, it's the exact opposite. Klik - at least as of now - requires having such a base system consisting of a certain number of packages, including things like KDE and GNOME. Actually what we're talking about mostly turns around such a base system. Klik simply makes the assumption that, as you're using SUSE 10.0, you're having a certain number of libraries installed. Those are not packaged as part of the cmg image. Which means that if you don't have a certain library installed that Klik assumes you have, the application simply won't run. Period. It'll die very quickly during runtime linkage. Klik is great at other things (1-click-install, a single file for an application, use as non-root user, transportable image, it doesn't install files on your system, etc...). But this is precisely one of its defects: where to draw the line between what's part of such a base system and what's not. My point, about this and as a reply to Janne, is that Linux is a highly modular system, and that it's actually one of it's key benefits. Which means that there is no such thing as a base system. Klik excels on so-called live distributions that consist of a read-only ISO/CD/DVD, because you always have the same set of packages installed. There, you actually have a base system, as it doesn't vary. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDZVZIr3NMWliFcXcRAs4pAJ47IOdagMXhzwLPAFkopRrxVeQ4YwCgiYTT IgPadz4JsNtzHd2JAmzUFYY= =qmX9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Loop mounting iso doesn't seem to work...
On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 00:03 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's say you have user id = 1000 and group id = 1000. The easy way goes like this (this is what I did): mkdir ~/suse mount xx.iso ~/suse -ouid=1000,gid=1000,loop Thanks Konstantin, that bit works works OK, in that from the server where I just setup the loopback, a ls of the /suse directory (well, /suse10.0 in this instance) shows the contents of the dvd.iso. (How does this relate to the command hoaghi gives in his mounting the iso: mount -o loop /dadadadum.iso /anywhere; does the ouid and gid alter where the loop goes, or is the loop optional front or back of the command?). ftpd -D err just tried ftpd, came back with an error (this is in suse 9.3) saying bash command not found. This is su'd into a terminal window as root immediately after executing the mount command given above. What is ftpd and where would it normally be resident? (I must get a grip of path commands in linux some day, old Dos was s easy to set up a path command...) Thanks for the help so far! When the installer prompts you for your ftp server, give the corresponding IP address and log in with your username and password. When it asks for a directory, just enter suse. Remember to remove the / it has by default or the source will not be found! Konstantinos Tampouris - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] RPM dependency hell: back to the drawing board?
On Monday 31 October 2005 01:24, Pascal Bleser wrote: My point, about this and as a reply to Janne, is that Linux is a highly modular system, and that it's actually one of it's key benefits. Yep. This is yet another double-edged sword. -- // Janne - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Where is postgresql?
Well, that's exactly what I didn't want or need to do. I guess openSUSE isn't for me. I installed Mandriva which includes PostgreSQL. My application is now running. Normally I use CentOS but it didn't like the video card on my test machine (needed the GUI for a demo), so I thought I'd give openSUSE a shot. Oh well. On 10/27/05, Joan Manuel Ventura Felix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i installed the postgresql. i went to any mirror, and i downloaded all the package from suse/i586. next rpm -i * and thats all. 2005/10/26, Christoph Thiel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Ken Leyba wrote: I can't seem to find the correct YAST repository for PostgreSQL. Can anyone give me a pointer? - http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse/2005-Sep/0775.html - http://www.opensuse.org/Released_Version - http://www.opensuse.org/Package_Repositories Regards Christoph - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ken Leyba I think you're the opposite of a paranoid. I think you go around with the insane delusion that people like you.-Harry Block, Deconstructing Harry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse] ClusterIP anyone?
Hello: I am interested in learning about configuring load balancing without a load balancer, now that IPTables includes support for this. It's hard to find easy-to-follow intructions about it, the netfilter how-to does not help me too much (because of my limited experience with iptables and networking concepts) I wonder if someone has already experimented with ClusterIP and can share his/her scripts? Is there a SuSE-specific config file to setup clusterIP nodes? Could not find anything on Yast2/FireWall module. BTW, it would be nice to have a config option for this in yast2. I already looked into a very nice software called balancer, which is an open source TCP proxy, very easy to configure, but I suspect that an IPTable-based solution could be much faster, right? I would appreciate comments on this if it is not the case. Thank you, Martin -- Dinamica - Open source J2EE framework Free, easy and powerful http://www.martincordova.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse-optimize] I installed OpenSUSE 10.1 alpha 2 in the notebook PC Fujitsu FMV BIBLO MG13DP
How do you do. My Name is Hiroyuki Masuda. I am Japanese. I installed OpenSUSE 10.1 alpha 2 in the notebook PC (It's Products name Fujitsu FMV BIBLO MG13DP) . The easy report is as follows. - Time which installation took : 110 minutes [ about ] . - USB-HDD Automatic Mount : Success. Device Name = /dev/sda1 . Vendor = IC25N020 Model: ATMR04-0 . Mount Point Name = /media/USBDISK . - CD-ROM Automatic Mount : Success. Device Name = /dev/hdc1 . Vendor = MATSHITADVD-RAM UJ-811, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive Mount Point Name = /media/dvdram . - Automatic recognition of a network card : NG . I set up manually by yast2 . Ssh communication was completed between this PC and other PCs. Driver Module Name = 8139too Device Name = eth0 - Automatic recognition of a video card : NG . yast2 cannot carry out automatic recognition of the video card on PC Fujitsu FMV BIBLO MG13DP.. - Automatic X configuration : NG SaX2 became an error. The contents of an error are as follows. Could not open file: /usr/share/sax/pr .. at /usr/share/sax/modules/SPPParse.pm line 61. It was the same result as both KDE and NOME. ### Again, if some useful information is acquired, I will make contact. See you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
