RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[Jared Still]

... with the caveat of somewhat complicating the recovery process.

On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 13:49, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote:
> Ryan - I don't see where you received a direct answer to this question. To
> use RMAN to back up to tape you must license what Oracle terms a MML (media
> management library). However, you can use RMAN to back up to disk without
> any additional purchase. My sys admin evaluated the cost of the MML piece
> from Veritas for our size of server and said the additional disk area was
> cheaper, so we use RMAN to disk.
> 
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 6:39 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> I never heard about the required license from veritas and legato. Can
> someone else confirm that this is necessary? They actually charge you more
> money to do use another product with veriftas and legato?
> 
> What is a 'BCV'?
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:19 PM
> 
> 
> > Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't have
> > a license or busget to use a third party backup tool
> > like Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a previous
> > life with Legato NetWorker.  Loved it!!)
> >
> > So now I'm left with archive log mode.  Archive logs
> > backed up nightly and a full backup once a week.  I
> > have to set aside at least as much disk space for the
> > data files as the size of the physical db which will
> > later be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk space
> > for my BCVs'.  I can't have both (budgetry
> > constraints).  I'm leaning towards BCV's.  Wouldn't it
> > be just as quick to restore the entire BCV as to do an
> > Oracle recovery from tape?
> >
> > Also Gene, you mention that while loading data, you
> > turn off archiving.  So if you lost that dbf during a
> > load, how would you recover the db?  Restore the dbf,
> > apply the logs and restart the load, right?
> >
> > In the same scenario in my environment I'd just
> > restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load.  Not
> > an expert on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin says
> > it can be done and yes, I'll test before I sign off on
> > it.
> >
> > True, I'd be nice to have archive logging aswell.  But
> > is it a necassity or have we all been programmed into
> > believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST BE IN
> > ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be progressing
> > beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one large
> > extents etc...?
> >
> > mohammed - jumping into flame proof suit
> >
> > --- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, test,
> > > and production.  I
> > > can use test db's to test backup/recovery
> > > scenario's.  The only time
> > > they are not in archive mode is when I am doing a
> > > major load
> > > (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading data,
> > > I put them back
> > > into archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few
> > > archives?  Ha, well
> > > worth it :).
> > > Gene
> > > PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is a
> > > must have using
> > > RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM >>>
> > > My personal opinion is all production databases
> > > should be in
> > > archivelog
> > > mode.  Period.  End of story.
> > >
> > > Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all
> > > good.
> > >
> > > Having said that, given a specific business case,
> > > with a specific set
> > > of
> > > requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode,
> > > and you might
> > > even
> > > convince me...but I doubt it...;-)
> > >
> > > -Mark
> > >
> > > Mark J. Bobak
> > > Oracle DBA
> > > ProQuest Company
> > > Ann Arbor, MI
> > > "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for
> > > what he is not,
> > > and
> > > a sense of humor was provided to console him for
> > > what he is."
> > > --Unknown
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> > >
> > > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> > > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> > > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> > > sense.
> > >
> > > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> > > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> > > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > > archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> > > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> > > data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> > >
> > > Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> > > BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by
> > > users
> > > for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> > > database and build cube

RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Yeah, I configured RMAN on a system. Then the users didn't want me to turn
off cold backups. My response was that a DBA wouldn't say there was such a
thing as too many backups, so we do both.
   Specifically with noarchivelog/archivelog, if you try to recover using a
backup from before you turned off archivelog, then you will have a gap in
your log sequence and only be able to recover to the point you turned off
archivelog. I know that you know that Mladen, but I thought maybe some
lurker on the list might not.

Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

-Original Message-
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 6:44 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



On 2004.01.10 16:49, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote:
> Gene - As a part of putting the database back in archivelog mode, I hope
you
> take another backup.

Actually, taking backup should be a part of every major  intervention on the
database.
Changing the database mode from noarchivelog to archivelog most certainly
qualifies.
You can never be too rich or have too many backups. My experience tells me
that
the backup you will need the most will always be the one you don't have.
Murphy must
have been a DBA.
-- 
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
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Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Mladen Gogala]

On 2004.01.10 16:49, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote:
> Gene - As a part of putting the database back in archivelog mode, I hope you
> take another backup.

Actually, taking backup should be a part of every major  intervention on the database.
Changing the database mode from noarchivelog to archivelog most certainly qualifies.
You can never be too rich or have too many backups. My experience tells me that
the backup you will need the most will always be the one you don't have.  Murphy must
have been a DBA.
-- 
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
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Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Tanel Poder]

> Would it be incorrect to assume that you never do inserts
> into newly loaded partitions, or updates that could increase
> the length of rows?
>
> 1 pctfree could be problematic in that case.

Btw, if you're sure that rows won't grow, it use even pctfree 0 instead of
1. One thing you have to have in mind in this case, that there might not be
enough room for allocating additional ITL entries in a block, so you should
use INITRANS for setting minimum number of entries a block has.

Tanel.


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RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Ryan - I don't see where you received a direct answer to this question. To
use RMAN to back up to tape you must license what Oracle terms a MML (media
management library). However, you can use RMAN to back up to disk without
any additional purchase. My sys admin evaluated the cost of the MML piece
from Veritas for our size of server and said the additional disk area was
cheaper, so we use RMAN to disk.

Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 6:39 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I never heard about the required license from veritas and legato. Can
someone else confirm that this is necessary? They actually charge you more
money to do use another product with veriftas and legato?

What is a 'BCV'?
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:19 PM


> Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't have
> a license or busget to use a third party backup tool
> like Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a previous
> life with Legato NetWorker.  Loved it!!)
>
> So now I'm left with archive log mode.  Archive logs
> backed up nightly and a full backup once a week.  I
> have to set aside at least as much disk space for the
> data files as the size of the physical db which will
> later be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk space
> for my BCVs'.  I can't have both (budgetry
> constraints).  I'm leaning towards BCV's.  Wouldn't it
> be just as quick to restore the entire BCV as to do an
> Oracle recovery from tape?
>
> Also Gene, you mention that while loading data, you
> turn off archiving.  So if you lost that dbf during a
> load, how would you recover the db?  Restore the dbf,
> apply the logs and restart the load, right?
>
> In the same scenario in my environment I'd just
> restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load.  Not
> an expert on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin says
> it can be done and yes, I'll test before I sign off on
> it.
>
> True, I'd be nice to have archive logging aswell.  But
> is it a necassity or have we all been programmed into
> believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST BE IN
> ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be progressing
> beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one large
> extents etc...?
>
> mohammed - jumping into flame proof suit
>
> --- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, test,
> > and production.  I
> > can use test db's to test backup/recovery
> > scenario's.  The only time
> > they are not in archive mode is when I am doing a
> > major load
> > (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading data,
> > I put them back
> > into archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few
> > archives?  Ha, well
> > worth it :).
> > Gene
> > PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is a
> > must have using
> > RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM >>>
> > My personal opinion is all production databases
> > should be in
> > archivelog
> > mode.  Period.  End of story.
> >
> > Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all
> > good.
> >
> > Having said that, given a specific business case,
> > with a specific set
> > of
> > requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode,
> > and you might
> > even
> > convince me...but I doubt it...;-)
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> > Mark J. Bobak
> > Oracle DBA
> > ProQuest Company
> > Ann Arbor, MI
> > "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for
> > what he is not,
> > and
> > a sense of humor was provided to console him for
> > what he is."
> > --Unknown
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> >
> > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> > sense.
> >
> > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> > data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> >
> > Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> > BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by
> > users
> > for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> > database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> > access these and not the DB directly.
> >
> > So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > mohammed
> >
> >
> > __
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> > Sweepstakes
> > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
> > --
> > Please see the official ORA

RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Gene - As a part of putting the database back in archivelog mode, I hope you
take another backup.



Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:44 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, test, and production.  I can
use test db's to test backup/recovery scenario's.  The only time they are
not in archive mode is when I am doing a major load (import,sqlload,etc).
After I am done loading data, I put them back into archive mode.  What does
it cost you, a few archives?  Ha, well worth it :). 
Gene
PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is a must have using RMAN.
Thanks for writing it!

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM >>>
My personal opinion is all production databases should be in archivelog
mode.  Period.  End of story.

Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all good.

Having said that, given a specific business case, with a specific set of
requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode, and you might even
convince me...but I doubt it...;-)

-Mark

Mark J. Bobak
Oracle DBA
ProQuest Company
Ann Arbor, MI
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and
a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."  --Unknown


-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Have a question on backups in a DW environment.

Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.

He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
(and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
data that was loaded after the BCV split.

Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by users
for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
access these and not the DB directly.

So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.

Any thoughts?

mohammed


__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
 
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Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Ryan]

its read only data in production. we monitor for chained rows on our staging
environment and do table reorgs as necessary. Our staging server only
ingests data over night, so we have all day for reorgs. Or we can just do
them on weekends. We may do a handful every few months. We just run a script
to check on it and get an email if chained rows is over 5%.

No big deal. Archive log mode when you ingest tons of data is problematic.
It just kills I/O. We do alot of full refreshes on tables every night. Its
easier just to do a tablespace transport for backup and run dbverify on
them. Faster to restore too. You keep two backup copies for each day. Then
you just do a 'move' on one them to restore it. Very fast.
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 1:59 PM


> Would it be incorrect to assume that you never do inserts
> into newly loaded partitions, or updates that could increase
> the length of rows?
>
> 1 pctfree could be problematic in that case.
>
> Jared
>
> On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 05:04, Ryan wrote:
> > I can understand the concern about ingesting large amount of data. We
ingest
> > about 200 GB a night. To get around the archiving problem we make a
> > noarchivelog 'staging' instance, to run our loads. Then we use
transportable
> > tablespaces to move the data to production. Its alot quicker and easier
to
> > restore a backup copy transportable tablespace than it is to roll
forward
> > plus we dont have to generate massive amounts of redo.
> >
> > If you can do your loads in the middle of the night and very few
production
> > users are on then, you can put your staging instance right on your
> > production server. We don't do this, but we have them all on the same
> > netapp.
> >
> > If you do this, I recommend using 99 percent free and 1 percent used in
> > order to 'compact' your tablespace. This keeps the tablespace as small
as
> > possible and decreases how long it takes to copy. This speeds up the
load
> > process(getting data to production), backups, and recovery. We were able
to
> > knock a 28 GB tablespace down to 12 GBs.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 10:04 PM
> >
> >
> > > Mohammed,
> > >
> > > Comments inline...
> > >
> > > on 1/9/04 2:24 PM, mkb at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> > > >
> > > > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> > > > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> > > > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > > > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.
> > >
> > > On the contrary, not using archivelog mode is what makes less sense,
thus
> > > justifying more careful consideration and justification.
Archivelogging
> > is
> > > the "industry standard" and makes complete sense in all but a few
extreme
> > > cases.
> > >
> > > Have you considered what archive logging actually provides for you,
and
> > what
> > > is necessary to engineer the same effects on your own?  Think it
> > through...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> > > > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> > > > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > > > archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> > > > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> > > > data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> > >
> > > The rebuild-then-reload method seems to make sense on paper, but it is
the
> > > cause of extreme difficultly in actual practice.  If you have not yet
> > > already implemented a very mature change-management procedure, to
record
> > all
> > > changes in the database, complete with all of the security to prevent
it
> > > being bypassed, then you are in for a rough time.
> > >
> > > Robust change-management and ironclad security always makes sense, but
the
> > > extra insurance of being able to recover every change using
archivelogging
> > > makes sense also.
> > >
> > > Also, on the topic of "BCV splits", one of the problems of using "BCV
> > > splits" (or file-system snapshots or similar snapshot schemes) is
that,
> > > while it makes backups very easy, it does not make recovery any
easier.
> > > This type of backup-centric thinking is very seductive.
> > >
> > > What is the purpose of the whole exercise?  Taking backups?  Or being
> > > recoverable?
> > >
> > > Oracle Recovery Manager (RMAN) is not named "Backup Manager" for a
reason.
> > > RMAN is "recovery-centric".  It seems more complex on the backup end
of
> > > things (it isn't), but it is undeniably easier on the recovery side of
> > > things.  Try to work RMAN into your strategy at all times.  It is
worth
> > the
> > > extra consideration.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> > > > BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by users

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Jared Still]

Would it be incorrect to assume that you never do inserts
into newly loaded partitions, or updates that could increase
the length of rows?

1 pctfree could be problematic in that case.

Jared

On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 05:04, Ryan wrote:
> I can understand the concern about ingesting large amount of data. We ingest
> about 200 GB a night. To get around the archiving problem we make a
> noarchivelog 'staging' instance, to run our loads. Then we use transportable
> tablespaces to move the data to production. Its alot quicker and easier to
> restore a backup copy transportable tablespace than it is to roll forward
> plus we dont have to generate massive amounts of redo.
> 
> If you can do your loads in the middle of the night and very few production
> users are on then, you can put your staging instance right on your
> production server. We don't do this, but we have them all on the same
> netapp.
> 
> If you do this, I recommend using 99 percent free and 1 percent used in
> order to 'compact' your tablespace. This keeps the tablespace as small as
> possible and decreases how long it takes to copy. This speeds up the load
> process(getting data to production), backups, and recovery. We were able to
> knock a 28 GB tablespace down to 12 GBs.
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 10:04 PM
> 
> 
> > Mohammed,
> >
> > Comments inline...
> >
> > on 1/9/04 2:24 PM, mkb at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> > >
> > > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> > > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> > > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.
> >
> > On the contrary, not using archivelog mode is what makes less sense, thus
> > justifying more careful consideration and justification.  Archivelogging
> is
> > the "industry standard" and makes complete sense in all but a few extreme
> > cases.
> >
> > Have you considered what archive logging actually provides for you, and
> what
> > is necessary to engineer the same effects on your own?  Think it
> through...
> >
> > >
> > > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> > > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> > > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > > archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> > > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> > > data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> >
> > The rebuild-then-reload method seems to make sense on paper, but it is the
> > cause of extreme difficultly in actual practice.  If you have not yet
> > already implemented a very mature change-management procedure, to record
> all
> > changes in the database, complete with all of the security to prevent it
> > being bypassed, then you are in for a rough time.
> >
> > Robust change-management and ironclad security always makes sense, but the
> > extra insurance of being able to recover every change using archivelogging
> > makes sense also.
> >
> > Also, on the topic of "BCV splits", one of the problems of using "BCV
> > splits" (or file-system snapshots or similar snapshot schemes) is that,
> > while it makes backups very easy, it does not make recovery any easier.
> > This type of backup-centric thinking is very seductive.
> >
> > What is the purpose of the whole exercise?  Taking backups?  Or being
> > recoverable?
> >
> > Oracle Recovery Manager (RMAN) is not named "Backup Manager" for a reason.
> > RMAN is "recovery-centric".  It seems more complex on the backup end of
> > things (it isn't), but it is undeniably easier on the recovery side of
> > things.  Try to work RMAN into your strategy at all times.  It is worth
> the
> > extra consideration.
> >
> > >
> > > Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> > > BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by users
> > > for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> > > database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> > > access these and not the DB directly.
> >
> > Any data warehouse that is shutdown, even for a few minutes, just to take
> a
> > backup, has been engineered to fail.  People keep data warehouses busy on
> a
> > 24x7 basis just like any other system.
> >
> > >
> > > So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > mohammed
> >
> > Hope this helps...
> >
> > -Tim
> >
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Tim Gorman
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >


-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Jared Still
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Ryan]

I can understand the concern about ingesting large amount of data. We ingest
about 200 GB a night. To get around the archiving problem we make a
noarchivelog 'staging' instance, to run our loads. Then we use transportable
tablespaces to move the data to production. Its alot quicker and easier to
restore a backup copy transportable tablespace than it is to roll forward
plus we dont have to generate massive amounts of redo.

If you can do your loads in the middle of the night and very few production
users are on then, you can put your staging instance right on your
production server. We don't do this, but we have them all on the same
netapp.

If you do this, I recommend using 99 percent free and 1 percent used in
order to 'compact' your tablespace. This keeps the tablespace as small as
possible and decreases how long it takes to copy. This speeds up the load
process(getting data to production), backups, and recovery. We were able to
knock a 28 GB tablespace down to 12 GBs.

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 10:04 PM


> Mohammed,
>
> Comments inline...
>
> on 1/9/04 2:24 PM, mkb at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> >
> > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.
>
> On the contrary, not using archivelog mode is what makes less sense, thus
> justifying more careful consideration and justification.  Archivelogging
is
> the "industry standard" and makes complete sense in all but a few extreme
> cases.
>
> Have you considered what archive logging actually provides for you, and
what
> is necessary to engineer the same effects on your own?  Think it
through...
>
> >
> > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> > data that was loaded after the BCV split.
>
> The rebuild-then-reload method seems to make sense on paper, but it is the
> cause of extreme difficultly in actual practice.  If you have not yet
> already implemented a very mature change-management procedure, to record
all
> changes in the database, complete with all of the security to prevent it
> being bypassed, then you are in for a rough time.
>
> Robust change-management and ironclad security always makes sense, but the
> extra insurance of being able to recover every change using archivelogging
> makes sense also.
>
> Also, on the topic of "BCV splits", one of the problems of using "BCV
> splits" (or file-system snapshots or similar snapshot schemes) is that,
> while it makes backups very easy, it does not make recovery any easier.
> This type of backup-centric thinking is very seductive.
>
> What is the purpose of the whole exercise?  Taking backups?  Or being
> recoverable?
>
> Oracle Recovery Manager (RMAN) is not named "Backup Manager" for a reason.
> RMAN is "recovery-centric".  It seems more complex on the backup end of
> things (it isn't), but it is undeniably easier on the recovery side of
> things.  Try to work RMAN into your strategy at all times.  It is worth
the
> extra consideration.
>
> >
> > Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> > BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by users
> > for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> > database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> > access these and not the DB directly.
>
> Any data warehouse that is shutdown, even for a few minutes, just to take
a
> backup, has been engineered to fail.  People keep data warehouses busy on
a
> 24x7 basis just like any other system.
>
> >
> > So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > mohammed
>
> Hope this helps...
>
> -Tim
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: Tim Gorman
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Ryan
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
--

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Mladen Gogala]

Let me explain, because I have a little bit of experience with it.
a) BCV's are replicated disks which are synchronized using TimeFinder.
and then separated from the source.  The phrase "splitting BCV's" means
producing an exact disk copy of the original disks, similarly to what dd can
do. It's an ideal way to make a copy of an instance.  Last time I checked,
BCV's weren't supported by RMAN (it may have changed now), so the
tablespaces had to be put into backup mode or (8i and after) the database
had to be suspended (very litle known trick is "ALTER SYSTEM SUSPEND",
which abruptly ceases all the I/O in the database, without shutting it down).
b) RMAN is an oracle tool which works in conjunction with Legato (EMC), 
NetBackup(Veritas),
Tivoli, Alexandria or SyncSort backups. RMAN doesn't know how to write to tape and 
needs
 a 3rd party backup to do so. The part  that Veritas, Legato or IBM will charge 
you for is 
 called libobk.so and is an interface which enables RMAN to work with their 
particular tool.
 RMAN is a very good tool which can do many things in a very easy way and without
generating a TB of redo archives for the duration of hot backup mode. Robert 
Freeman's 
book is definitely the best source for anything RMAN around.

On 2004.01.09 20:29, mkb wrote:
> Hi Ryan,
> 
> Not for RMAN.  I meant a license for Veritas or
> Legato.
> 
> See Mladen's reply re: BCV (basically EMC takes a
> snapshot of the mount points onto corresponding mount
> points i.e. a 1-to-1 mapping for each mount point onto
> a BCV mount point)
> 
> Hope that clears up the confusion.
> 
> mohammed
> 
> --- Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I never heard about the required license from
> > veritas and legato. Can
> > someone else confirm that this is necessary? They
> > actually charge you more
> > money to do use another product with veriftas and
> > legato?
> > 
> > What is a 'BCV'?
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:19 PM
> > 
> > 
> > > Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't
> > have
> > > a license or busget to use a third party backup
> > tool
> > > like Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a
> > previous
> > > life with Legato NetWorker.  Loved it!!)
> > >
> > > So now I'm left with archive log mode.  Archive
> > logs
> > > backed up nightly and a full backup once a week. 
> > I
> > > have to set aside at least as much disk space for
> > the
> > > data files as the size of the physical db which
> > will
> > > later be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk
> > space
> > > for my BCVs'.  I can't have both (budgetry
> > > constraints).  I'm leaning towards BCV's. 
> > Wouldn't it
> > > be just as quick to restore the entire BCV as to
> > do an
> > > Oracle recovery from tape?
> > >
> > > Also Gene, you mention that while loading data,
> > you
> > > turn off archiving.  So if you lost that dbf
> > during a
> > > load, how would you recover the db?  Restore the
> > dbf,
> > > apply the logs and restart the load, right?
> > >
> > > In the same scenario in my environment I'd just
> > > restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load. 
> > Not
> > > an expert on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin
> > says
> > > it can be done and yes, I'll test before I sign
> > off on
> > > it.
> > >
> > > True, I'd be nice to have archive logging aswell. 
> > But
> > > is it a necassity or have we all been programmed
> > into
> > > believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST BE
> > IN
> > > ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be
> > progressing
> > > beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one
> > large
> > > extents etc...?
> > >
> > > mohammed - jumping into flame proof suit
> > >
> > > --- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev,
> > test,
> > > > and production.  I
> > > > can use test db's to test backup/recovery
> > > > scenario's.  The only time
> > > > they are not in archive mode is when I am doing
> > a
> > > > major load
> > > > (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading
> > data,
> > > > I put them back
> > > > into archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few
> > > > archives?  Ha, well
> > > > worth it :).
> > > > Gene
> > > > PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is
> > a
> > > > must have using
> > > > RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
> > > >
> > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM
> > >>>
> > > > My personal opinion is all production databases
> > > > should be in
> > > > archivelog
> > > > mode.  Period.  End of story.
> > > >
> > > > Less down time, more recovery optionsit's
> > all
> > > > good.
> > > >
> > > > Having said that, given a specific business
> > case,
> > > > with a specific set
> > > > of
> > > > requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog
> > mode,
> > > > and you might
> > > > even
> > > > convince me...but I doubt it...;-)
> > > >
> > > > -Mark
> > > >
>

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Tim Gorman]

Mohammed,

Comments inline...

on 1/9/04 2:24 PM, mkb at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> 
> Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.

On the contrary, not using archivelog mode is what makes less sense, thus
justifying more careful consideration and justification.  Archivelogging is
the "industry standard" and makes complete sense in all but a few extreme
cases.

Have you considered what archive logging actually provides for you, and what
is necessary to engineer the same effects on your own?  Think it through...

> 
> He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> data that was loaded after the BCV split.

The rebuild-then-reload method seems to make sense on paper, but it is the
cause of extreme difficultly in actual practice.  If you have not yet
already implemented a very mature change-management procedure, to record all
changes in the database, complete with all of the security to prevent it
being bypassed, then you are in for a rough time.

Robust change-management and ironclad security always makes sense, but the
extra insurance of being able to recover every change using archivelogging
makes sense also.

Also, on the topic of "BCV splits", one of the problems of using "BCV
splits" (or file-system snapshots or similar snapshot schemes) is that,
while it makes backups very easy, it does not make recovery any easier.
This type of backup-centric thinking is very seductive.

What is the purpose of the whole exercise?  Taking backups?  Or being
recoverable?

Oracle Recovery Manager (RMAN) is not named "Backup Manager" for a reason.
RMAN is "recovery-centric".  It seems more complex on the backup end of
things (it isn't), but it is undeniably easier on the recovery side of
things.  Try to work RMAN into your strategy at all times.  It is worth the
extra consideration.

> 
> Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by users
> for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> access these and not the DB directly.

Any data warehouse that is shutdown, even for a few minutes, just to take a
backup, has been engineered to fail.  People keep data warehouses busy on a
24x7 basis just like any other system.

> 
> So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> mohammed

Hope this helps...

-Tim

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
-- 
Author: Tim Gorman
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Ryan]

Anyone look at the 10g new features? Is this one of 
things Oracle is claiming they can eliminate with 10g? So you dont need this 
license? 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L 
  
  Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 8:29 
  PM
  Subject: Re: Backups in a DW 
  Environment
  The license is for the 
  software that interfaces Veritas NetBackup to RMAN. RMAN has an API and NBU has an API.  The 
  intersection of the 2 will set you 
  back about $1500 US IIRC.Jared 
  


  
  "Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 01/09/2004 04:39 PM 
 Please respond to ORACLE-L 
                  To:     
   Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>         cc:       
        
      Subject:        Re: Backups in a DW 
EnvironmentI never heard about the required license from veritas and legato. 
  Cansomeone else confirm that this is necessary? They actually charge you 
  moremoney to do use another product with veriftas and legato?What 
  is a 'BCV'?- Original Message -To: "Multiple recipients of 
  list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 
  7:19 PM> Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't 
  have> a license or busget to use a third party backup tool> like 
  Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a previous> life with Legato 
  NetWorker.  Loved it!!)>> So now I'm left with archive log 
  mode.  Archive logs> backed up nightly and a full backup once a 
  week.  I> have to set aside at least as much disk space for 
  the> data files as the size of the physical db which will> later 
  be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk space> for my BCVs'. 
   I can't have both (budgetry> constraints).  I'm leaning 
  towards BCV's.  Wouldn't it> be just as quick to restore the 
  entire BCV as to do an> Oracle recovery from tape?>> Also 
  Gene, you mention that while loading data, you> turn off archiving. 
   So if you lost that dbf during a> load, how would you recover the 
  db?  Restore the dbf,> apply the logs and restart the load, 
  right?>> In the same scenario in my environment I'd just> 
  restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load.  Not> an expert 
  on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin says> it can be done and yes, 
  I'll test before I sign off on> it.>> True, I'd be nice 
  to have archive logging aswell.  But> is it a necassity or have we 
  all been programmed into> believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST 
  BE IN> ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be 
  progressing> beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one 
  large> extents etc...?>> mohammed - jumping into flame 
  proof suit>> --- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:> > I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, 
  test,> > and production.  I> > can use test db's to 
  test backup/recovery> > scenario's.  The only time> > 
  they are not in archive mode is when I am doing a> > major 
  load> > (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading 
  data,> > I put them back> > into archive mode.  What 
  does it cost you, a few> > archives?  Ha, well> > 
  worth it :).> > Gene> > PS. On a side note, Robert 
  Freeman, your book is a> > must have using> > RMAN. 
   Thanks for writing it!> >> > >>> 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM >>>> > My 
  personal opinion is all production databases> > should be in> 
  > archivelog> > mode.  Period.  End of story.> 
  >> > Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all> 
  > good.> >> > Having said that, given a specific 
  business case,> > with a specific set> > of> > 
  requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode,> > and you 
  might> > even> > convince me...but I doubt 
  it...;-)> >> > -Mark> >> > Mark J. 
  Bobak> > Oracle DBA> > ProQuest Company> > Ann 
  Arbor, MI> > "Imagination was given to man to compensate him 
  for> > what he is not,> > and> > a sense of 
  humor was provided to console him for> > what he is."> > 
  --Unknown> >> >> > -Original 
  Message-> > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM 
  > > To: Multiple recipients of list 
  ORACLE-L> >> >> > Have a question on backups in 
  a DW environment.> >> > Our DW is somewhat small at the 
  moment but projected> > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard 
  time trying to> > con

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Jared . Still]

The license is for the software that interfaces Veritas NetBackup to RMAN.

RMAN has an API and NBU has an API.  The intersection of the 2 will set
you back about $1500 US IIRC.

Jared







"Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 01/09/2004 04:39 PM
 Please respond to ORACLE-L

        
        To:        Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        cc:        
        Subject:        Re: Backups in a DW Environment


I never heard about the required license from veritas and legato. Can
someone else confirm that this is necessary? They actually charge you more
money to do use another product with veriftas and legato?

What is a 'BCV'?
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:19 PM


> Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't have
> a license or busget to use a third party backup tool
> like Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a previous
> life with Legato NetWorker.  Loved it!!)
>
> So now I'm left with archive log mode.  Archive logs
> backed up nightly and a full backup once a week.  I
> have to set aside at least as much disk space for the
> data files as the size of the physical db which will
> later be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk space
> for my BCVs'.  I can't have both (budgetry
> constraints).  I'm leaning towards BCV's.  Wouldn't it
> be just as quick to restore the entire BCV as to do an
> Oracle recovery from tape?
>
> Also Gene, you mention that while loading data, you
> turn off archiving.  So if you lost that dbf during a
> load, how would you recover the db?  Restore the dbf,
> apply the logs and restart the load, right?
>
> In the same scenario in my environment I'd just
> restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load.  Not
> an expert on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin says
> it can be done and yes, I'll test before I sign off on
> it.
>
> True, I'd be nice to have archive logging aswell.  But
> is it a necassity or have we all been programmed into
> believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST BE IN
> ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be progressing
> beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one large
> extents etc...?
>
> mohammed - jumping into flame proof suit
>
> --- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, test,
> > and production.  I
> > can use test db's to test backup/recovery
> > scenario's.  The only time
> > they are not in archive mode is when I am doing a
> > major load
> > (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading data,
> > I put them back
> > into archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few
> > archives?  Ha, well
> > worth it :).
> > Gene
> > PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is a
> > must have using
> > RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM >>>
> > My personal opinion is all production databases
> > should be in
> > archivelog
> > mode.  Period.  End of story.
> >
> > Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all
> > good.
> >
> > Having said that, given a specific business case,
> > with a specific set
> > of
> > requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode,
> > and you might
> > even
> > convince me...but I doubt it...;-)
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> > Mark J. Bobak
> > Oracle DBA
> > ProQuest Company
> > Ann Arbor, MI
> > "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for
> > what he is not,
> > and
> > a sense of humor was provided to console him for
> > what he is."
> > --Unknown
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> >
> > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> > sense.
> >
> > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> > data that was loaded after the BCV spl

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[mkb]

Hi Ryan,

Not for RMAN.  I meant a license for Veritas or
Legato.

See Mladen's reply re: BCV (basically EMC takes a
snapshot of the mount points onto corresponding mount
points i.e. a 1-to-1 mapping for each mount point onto
a BCV mount point)

Hope that clears up the confusion.

mohammed

--- Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I never heard about the required license from
> veritas and legato. Can
> someone else confirm that this is necessary? They
> actually charge you more
> money to do use another product with veriftas and
> legato?
> 
> What is a 'BCV'?
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:19 PM
> 
> 
> > Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't
> have
> > a license or busget to use a third party backup
> tool
> > like Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a
> previous
> > life with Legato NetWorker.  Loved it!!)
> >
> > So now I'm left with archive log mode.  Archive
> logs
> > backed up nightly and a full backup once a week. 
> I
> > have to set aside at least as much disk space for
> the
> > data files as the size of the physical db which
> will
> > later be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk
> space
> > for my BCVs'.  I can't have both (budgetry
> > constraints).  I'm leaning towards BCV's. 
> Wouldn't it
> > be just as quick to restore the entire BCV as to
> do an
> > Oracle recovery from tape?
> >
> > Also Gene, you mention that while loading data,
> you
> > turn off archiving.  So if you lost that dbf
> during a
> > load, how would you recover the db?  Restore the
> dbf,
> > apply the logs and restart the load, right?
> >
> > In the same scenario in my environment I'd just
> > restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load. 
> Not
> > an expert on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin
> says
> > it can be done and yes, I'll test before I sign
> off on
> > it.
> >
> > True, I'd be nice to have archive logging aswell. 
> But
> > is it a necassity or have we all been programmed
> into
> > believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST BE
> IN
> > ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be
> progressing
> > beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one
> large
> > extents etc...?
> >
> > mohammed - jumping into flame proof suit
> >
> > --- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev,
> test,
> > > and production.  I
> > > can use test db's to test backup/recovery
> > > scenario's.  The only time
> > > they are not in archive mode is when I am doing
> a
> > > major load
> > > (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading
> data,
> > > I put them back
> > > into archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few
> > > archives?  Ha, well
> > > worth it :).
> > > Gene
> > > PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is
> a
> > > must have using
> > > RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM
> >>>
> > > My personal opinion is all production databases
> > > should be in
> > > archivelog
> > > mode.  Period.  End of story.
> > >
> > > Less down time, more recovery optionsit's
> all
> > > good.
> > >
> > > Having said that, given a specific business
> case,
> > > with a specific set
> > > of
> > > requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog
> mode,
> > > and you might
> > > even
> > > convince me...but I doubt it...;-)
> > >
> > > -Mark
> > >
> > > Mark J. Bobak
> > > Oracle DBA
> > > ProQuest Company
> > > Ann Arbor, MI
> > > "Imagination was given to man to compensate him
> for
> > > what he is not,
> > > and
> > > a sense of humor was provided to console him for
> > > what he is."
> > > --Unknown
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> > >
> > > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but
> projected
> > > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying
> to
> > > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> > > sense.
> > >
> > > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed
> to
> > > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also
> wants to
> > > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > > archiving if I can restore my DB from last
> night's
> > > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading
> any
> > > data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> > >
> > > Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before
> the
> > > BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by
> > > users
> > > for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access
> the
> > > database and build cubes using Cognos tools. 
> Users
> > > access these and not the DB directly.
> > >
> > > So, again I don't see the need for archive
> logging.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > mohammed
> > >
> > >
> > > __
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> > 

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Mladen Gogala]

BCV = Business Continuity Volume
On 2004.01.09 19:39, Ryan wrote:
> I never heard about the required license from veritas and legato. Can
> someone else confirm that this is necessary? They actually charge you more
> money to do use another product with veriftas and legato?
> 
> What is a 'BCV'?
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:19 PM
> 
> 
> > Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't have
> > a license or busget to use a third party backup tool
> > like Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a previous
> > life with Legato NetWorker.  Loved it!!)
> >
> > So now I'm left with archive log mode.  Archive logs
> > backed up nightly and a full backup once a week.  I
> > have to set aside at least as much disk space for the
> > data files as the size of the physical db which will
> > later be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk space
> > for my BCVs'.  I can't have both (budgetry
> > constraints).  I'm leaning towards BCV's.  Wouldn't it
> > be just as quick to restore the entire BCV as to do an
> > Oracle recovery from tape?
> >
> > Also Gene, you mention that while loading data, you
> > turn off archiving.  So if you lost that dbf during a
> > load, how would you recover the db?  Restore the dbf,
> > apply the logs and restart the load, right?
> >
> > In the same scenario in my environment I'd just
> > restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load.  Not
> > an expert on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin says
> > it can be done and yes, I'll test before I sign off on
> > it.
> >
> > True, I'd be nice to have archive logging aswell.  But
> > is it a necassity or have we all been programmed into
> > believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST BE IN
> > ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be progressing
> > beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one large
> > extents etc...?
> >
> > mohammed - jumping into flame proof suit
> >
> > --- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, test,
> > > and production.  I
> > > can use test db's to test backup/recovery
> > > scenario's.  The only time
> > > they are not in archive mode is when I am doing a
> > > major load
> > > (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading data,
> > > I put them back
> > > into archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few
> > > archives?  Ha, well
> > > worth it :).
> > > Gene
> > > PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is a
> > > must have using
> > > RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM >>>
> > > My personal opinion is all production databases
> > > should be in
> > > archivelog
> > > mode.  Period.  End of story.
> > >
> > > Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all
> > > good.
> > >
> > > Having said that, given a specific business case,
> > > with a specific set
> > > of
> > > requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode,
> > > and you might
> > > even
> > > convince me...but I doubt it...;-)
> > >
> > > -Mark
> > >
> > > Mark J. Bobak
> > > Oracle DBA
> > > ProQuest Company
> > > Ann Arbor, MI
> > > "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for
> > > what he is not,
> > > and
> > > a sense of humor was provided to console him for
> > > what he is."
> > > --Unknown
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> > >
> > > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> > > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> > > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> > > sense.
> > >
> > > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> > > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> > > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > > archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> > > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> > > data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> > >
> > > Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> > > BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by
> > > users
> > > for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> > > database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> > > access these and not the DB directly.
> > >
> > > So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > mohammed
> > >
> > >
> > > __
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> > > Sweepstakes
> > > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
> > > --
> > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:
> > > http://www.orafaq.net
> > > --
> > > Author: mkb
> > >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051
> > > http://www.fatcity.com
> > > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Ryan]

I never heard about the required license from veritas and legato. Can
someone else confirm that this is necessary? They actually charge you more
money to do use another product with veriftas and legato?

What is a 'BCV'?
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:19 PM


> Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't have
> a license or busget to use a third party backup tool
> like Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a previous
> life with Legato NetWorker.  Loved it!!)
>
> So now I'm left with archive log mode.  Archive logs
> backed up nightly and a full backup once a week.  I
> have to set aside at least as much disk space for the
> data files as the size of the physical db which will
> later be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk space
> for my BCVs'.  I can't have both (budgetry
> constraints).  I'm leaning towards BCV's.  Wouldn't it
> be just as quick to restore the entire BCV as to do an
> Oracle recovery from tape?
>
> Also Gene, you mention that while loading data, you
> turn off archiving.  So if you lost that dbf during a
> load, how would you recover the db?  Restore the dbf,
> apply the logs and restart the load, right?
>
> In the same scenario in my environment I'd just
> restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load.  Not
> an expert on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin says
> it can be done and yes, I'll test before I sign off on
> it.
>
> True, I'd be nice to have archive logging aswell.  But
> is it a necassity or have we all been programmed into
> believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST BE IN
> ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be progressing
> beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one large
> extents etc...?
>
> mohammed - jumping into flame proof suit
>
> --- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, test,
> > and production.  I
> > can use test db's to test backup/recovery
> > scenario's.  The only time
> > they are not in archive mode is when I am doing a
> > major load
> > (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading data,
> > I put them back
> > into archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few
> > archives?  Ha, well
> > worth it :).
> > Gene
> > PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is a
> > must have using
> > RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM >>>
> > My personal opinion is all production databases
> > should be in
> > archivelog
> > mode.  Period.  End of story.
> >
> > Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all
> > good.
> >
> > Having said that, given a specific business case,
> > with a specific set
> > of
> > requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode,
> > and you might
> > even
> > convince me...but I doubt it...;-)
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> > Mark J. Bobak
> > Oracle DBA
> > ProQuest Company
> > Ann Arbor, MI
> > "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for
> > what he is not,
> > and
> > a sense of humor was provided to console him for
> > what he is."
> > --Unknown
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> >
> > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> > sense.
> >
> > He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> > (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> > turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> > archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> > BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> > data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> >
> > Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> > BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by
> > users
> > for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> > database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> > access these and not the DB directly.
> >
> > So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > mohammed
> >
> >
> > __
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> > Sweepstakes
> > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:
> > http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: mkb
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051
> > http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web
> > hosting services
> >
> -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an
> > E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of
> > 'ListGuru') and in
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB
> > ORACLE-L
> > (or the name of mailing list 

RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[mkb]

Let's assume RMAN is not an option since we don't have
a license or busget to use a third party backup tool
like Legato or Veritas with RMAN (used in a previous
life with Legato NetWorker.  Loved it!!)

So now I'm left with archive log mode.  Archive logs
backed up nightly and a full backup once a week.  I
have to set aside at least as much disk space for the
data files as the size of the physical db which will
later be copied to tape.  Plus, I also need disk space
for my BCVs'.  I can't have both (budgetry
constraints).  I'm leaning towards BCV's.  Wouldn't it
be just as quick to restore the entire BCV as to do an
Oracle recovery from tape?

Also Gene, you mention that while loading data, you
turn off archiving.  So if you lost that dbf during a
load, how would you recover the db?  Restore the dbf,
apply the logs and restart the load, right?

In the same scenario in my environment I'd just
restore the entire BCV set and re-start the load.  Not
an expert on EMC's BCV technology but my sysadmin says
it can be done and yes, I'll test before I sign off on
it.

True, I'd be nice to have archive logging aswell.  But
is it a necassity or have we all been programmed into
believing that "ALL PRODUCTION DATABASES MUST BE IN
ARCHIVE LOG REGARDLESS".  Should we not be progressing
beyond this like we did with hit ratios and one large
extents etc...?

mohammed - jumping into flame proof suit

--- Gene Sais <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, test,
> and production.  I
> can use test db's to test backup/recovery
> scenario's.  The only time
> they are not in archive mode is when I am doing a
> major load
> (import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading data,
> I put them back
> into archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few
> archives?  Ha, well
> worth it :). 
> Gene
> PS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is a
> must have using
> RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
> 
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM >>>
> My personal opinion is all production databases
> should be in
> archivelog
> mode.  Period.  End of story.
> 
> Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all
> good.
> 
> Having said that, given a specific business case,
> with a specific set
> of
> requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode,
> and you might
> even
> convince me...but I doubt it...;-)
> 
> -Mark
> 
> Mark J. Bobak
> Oracle DBA
> ProQuest Company
> Ann Arbor, MI
> "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for
> what he is not,
> and
> a sense of humor was provided to console him for
> what he is." 
> --Unknown
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> 
> Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> sense.
> 
> He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> 
> Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by
> users
> for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> access these and not the DB directly.
> 
> So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> mohammed
> 
> 
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus 
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:
> http://www.orafaq.net 
> -- 
> Author: mkb
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051
> http://www.fatcity.com 
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web
> hosting services
>
-
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an
> E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of
> 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB
> ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
> from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information
> (like subscribing).
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:
> http://www.orafaq.net 
> -- 
> Author: Bobak, Mark
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051
> http://www.fatcity.com 
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web
> hosting services
>
-
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an
> E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of
> 'ListGuru') and in
> t

RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[Gene Sais]

I put all databases in archive mode, i.e. dev, test, and production.  
I can use test db's to test backup/recovery scenario's.  The only time they 
are not in archive mode is when I am doing a major load 
(import,sqlload,etc).  After I am done loading data, I put them back into 
archive mode.  What does it cost you, a few archives?  Ha, well worth 
it :). 
GenePS. On a side note, Robert Freeman, your book is a must have using 
RMAN.  Thanks for writing it!
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/09/04 04:54PM 
>>>My personal opinion is all production databases should be in 
archivelogmode.  Period.  End of story.Less down time, 
more recovery optionsit's all good.Having said that, given a 
specific business case, with a specific set ofrequirements, one could argue 
for noarchivelog mode, and you might evenconvince me...but I doubt 
it...;-)-MarkMark J. BobakOracle DBAProQuest 
CompanyAnn Arbor, MI"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for 
what he is not, anda sense of humor was provided to console him for what he 
is."  --Unknown-Original Message-Sent: Friday, 
January 09, 2004 4:25 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list 
ORACLE-LHave a question on backups in a DW environment.Our 
DW is somewhat small at the moment but projectedto grow.  I seem to be 
having a hard time trying toconvince the sys admin that I don't want 
archivelogging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much 
sense.He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to(and also 
sounds like a good idea) but also wants toturn on archiving.  My 
thinking is why turn onarchiving if I can restore my DB from last 
night'sBCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading anydata that was 
loaded after the BCV split.Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown 
before theBCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by usersfor 
ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access thedatabase and build cubes 
using Cognos tools.  Usersaccess these and not the DB 
directly.So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.Any 
thoughts?mohammed__Do 
you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakeshttp://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net-- Author: 
mkb  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fat City Network 
Services    -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.comSan Diego, 
California    -- Mailing list and web 
hosting 
services-To 
REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail messageto: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and inthe message 
BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L(or the name of mailing list 
you want to be removed from).  You mayalso send the HELP command for 
other information (like subscribing).-- Please see the official ORACLE-L 
FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net-- 
Author: Bobak, Mark  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fat 
City Network Services    -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.comSan Diego, 
California    -- Mailing list and web 
hosting 
services-To 
REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail messageto: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and inthe message 
BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L(or the name of mailing list 
you want to be removed from).  You mayalso send the HELP command for 
other information (like subscribing).

Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[mkb]

Yes but...

The developers use Cognos tools for all their
development.  Nobody writes any PL/SQL, triggers etc. 
So again, all that the developers might lose is data
that they loaded which can be easily recovered by
re-running the ETL process.

What I'm trying to say is that the environment from
the database perpective is fairly static except when
data is loaded.  No users accessing directly,
deveopers using third party tools for development and
data changing slowly.

Thanks for the input.

mohammed

--- Mladen Gogala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, recovery might be just a wee bit faster then
> re-loading few gigs of data
> using SQL. Also, developers on that DW might lose
> any work that they haven't done
> the night before. This is a production database,
> which means that it absolutely
> must be in archive log mode. One of the big reasons
> is that you'll have to answer 
> the question "why isn't the production DW in the
> archive log mode" whenever you
> encounter an oracle consultant.
> 
> > Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but
> projected
> > to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying
> to
> > convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> > logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> sense.
> 
> --
> Mladen Gogala
> Oracle DBA
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:
> http://www.orafaq.net
> -- 
> Author: Mladen Gogala
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[mkb]

Hi Dennis,

On average, we load data weekly.  The load time is no
more 40 minutes to an hour.  Like I said, we're small
at the moment.  We're at about 70GB which includes
temp and undo and growing at the rate of about 2GB a
month.

Consequence of a failure has been discussed with the
developers and users.  Developers say that they can
live without the DW for one business day.  The users
don't access the database directly so they would not 
be affected.

As far as critical data being lost, well if we loose
the database and we have BCVs in place, we can just
reload any data that is missing from the flat files,
so no biggie there.

Also, I take an export of the entire database after a
load.

As far as how much the sys admin knows about Oracle
well... knows enough from a sys admin perspective that
we can converse intelligently but I suspect still
holds to the old myths about Oracle that have been
discussed on this list. 

Appreciate your input.

mohammed

--- DENNIS WILLIAMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mohammed - When is this database updated? Once/week?
> Daily? Continuously? If
> there is a failure, what is the consequence of
> returning to the last backup?
> How much critical data will be lost? How will
> recovery times be affected
> with/without archive logging? How much does your sys
> admin know about
> Oracle?
>We have a data warehouse that gets updated
> weekly. The day after the load
> we perform a cold backup. We don't use archive
> logging.
> 
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 3:25 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> 
> 
> Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
> 
> Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much
> sense.
> 
> He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> data that was loaded after the BCV split.
> 
> Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by
> users
> for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> access these and not the DB directly.
> 
> So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> mohammed
> 
> 
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RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[Bobak, Mark]

My personal opinion is all production databases should be in archivelog
mode.  Period.  End of story.

Less down time, more recovery optionsit's all good.

Having said that, given a specific business case, with a specific set of
requirements, one could argue for noarchivelog mode, and you might even
convince me...but I doubt it...;-)

-Mark

Mark J. Bobak
Oracle DBA
ProQuest Company
Ann Arbor, MI
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and
a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."  --Unknown


-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:25 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Have a question on backups in a DW environment.

Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.

He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
(and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
data that was loaded after the BCV split.

Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by users
for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
access these and not the DB directly.

So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.

Any thoughts?

mohammed


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Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Ryan]

why do you do a cold backup? why not just use RMAN?
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:34 PM


> Mohammed - When is this database updated? Once/week? Daily? Continuously?
If
> there is a failure, what is the consequence of returning to the last
backup?
> How much critical data will be lost? How will recovery times be affected
> with/without archive logging? How much does your sys admin know about
> Oracle?
>We have a data warehouse that gets updated weekly. The day after the
load
> we perform a cold backup. We don't use archive logging.
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 3:25 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Have a question on backups in a DW environment.
>
> Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.
>
> He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
> (and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
> turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
> archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
> BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
> data that was loaded after the BCV split.
>
> Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
> BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by users
> for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
> database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
> access these and not the DB directly.
>
> So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> mohammed
>
>
> __
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>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Backups in a DW Environment

[Mladen Gogala]

Well, recovery might be just a wee bit faster then re-loading few gigs of data
using SQL. Also, developers on that DW might lose any work that they haven't done
the night before. This is a production database, which means that it absolutely
must be in archive log mode. One of the big reasons is that you'll have to answer 
the question "why isn't the production DW in the archive log mode" whenever you
encounter an oracle consultant.

> Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
> to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
> convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
> logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.

--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
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RE: Backups in a DW Environment

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Mohammed - When is this database updated? Once/week? Daily? Continuously? If
there is a failure, what is the consequence of returning to the last backup?
How much critical data will be lost? How will recovery times be affected
with/without archive logging? How much does your sys admin know about
Oracle?
   We have a data warehouse that gets updated weekly. The day after the load
we perform a cold backup. We don't use archive logging.

Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 3:25 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Have a question on backups in a DW environment.

Our DW is somewhat small at the moment but projected
to grow.  I seem to be having a hard time trying to
convince the sys admin that I don't want archive
logging turned on.  To me, it does'nt make much sense.

He's proposed using EMC BCV's which I've agreed to
(and also sounds like a good idea) but also wants to
turn on archiving.  My thinking is why turn on
archiving if I can restore my DB from last night's
BCV's and then bring it up to date by re-loading any
data that was loaded after the BCV split.

Our system is not 24x7 so we can shutdown before the
BCV split.  Also, it's not directly accessed by users
for ad-hoc queries.  Automated processes access the
database and build cubes using Cognos tools.  Users
access these and not the DB directly.

So, again I don't see the need for archive logging.

Any thoughts?

mohammed


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AW: was re Backups in a SAN with heterogenous environments

[Hemant K Chitale]

{I can't remember the exact title of my previous email --
it is on my home PC and I am at work right now}

I had asked about options for backups when running
heterogenous environments [eg HP and Sun Database
Servers with DBs on FileSystems] in a single SAN.

We had a meeting with Sun and their local dealer
and Hitachi wich actually suppies the HDS 9XXX
storage systems to Sun.  I identified these options
at the end of the meetings 
1.  Tape library connected to both Sun and HP servers 
[SCSI connection]
2.  Add a backup server for each OS in to the SAN
[e.g. one backup server for Sun file-systems, another
for HP file-systems]
3.  Backup over the Network [standard Veritas Netbackup
client and server]
4.  Tape library directly on the SAN switch via FC
and using Veritas NetBackup Shared Storage Option
to share the tape library and yet do LAN-free backups.

My thanks to all those who replied earlier.
Hemant K Chitale
http://hkchital.tripod.com
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Re: Backups

[Tim Gorman]

I didn't say that you would have a problem during OPEN RESETLOGS.  A problem
might occur after the OPEN RESETLOGS if you did not grab an immediate "cold"
backup...

If you just open the database to end-users and transactions immediately
after the OPEN RESETLOGS, then you have a period when it would be
unrecoverable should another media failure or corruption occur before a full
backup can be taken.  That is, before you can complete a full backup of the
database (either "hot" or "cold"), all of the archivelogs generated and
saved are *useless*.  After all, what good is an archivelog without a valid
restored backup to overlay?

That is the reason for the recommendation to get a "cold" backup after an
OPEN RESETLOGS;  so that you can be absolutely certain that any transaction
committed afterwards can be recovered in the event of media failure...

---

There is a certain set of circumstances where the sun, the moon, and the
stars align where you can restore from backups taken *prior* to the OPEN
RESETLOGS and roll forward archivelogs generated after the backup through
the OPEN RESETLOGS to the point-in-time of failure, but the requirements
include:

* database must be version 7.3.3 or higher, so you can save the SCN of
the OPEN RESETLOGS logged to the "alert.log" file
* must have the SCN of the OPEN RESETLOGS available
* the backup taken prior to the resetlogs (used in the restore) must
have been a "hot" backup
* the database instance must not have been shutdown between that "hot"
backup and the events leading to the OPEN RESETLOGS

If any one of these conditions is false, then grabbing a "cold" backup after
an OPEN RESETLOGS is the only way to guarantee that all transactions
committed after the OPEN RESETLOGS can be recovered if media failure occurs
again...

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:13 AM


>
> Tim, et.al,
>
> We use rman on 8.0.6.3 databases.  One of our duvelopers was trying to
> delete records from a table and her query deleted everything  from the
> table.  This caused the application to fail and a point-in_time recovery
was
> nessessary.  I was given a time of 11:00AM.  I had recovered the database
> until 11:00AM and before opening the database with resetlogs, I asked if
the
> time was correct.  After several minutes of discussion with all concerned,
> it was decided that actually we needed to recovery until 9:00AM.  I
changed
> the until time in the restore script, restored the database until 9:00AM
and
> recovered it and opened it resetlogs.  I had no problem with this.
>
> Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:08 PM
>
>
> The one situation where a cold backup can be considered necessary is
> following an OPEN RESETLOGS.  If you have a "no data loss" requirement and
> you are in ARCHIVELOG mode, then there is a window following an OPEN
> RESETLOGS where, if the media crashes prior to completing a "hot" backup,
> you could be unrecoverable.  File that one under "a bad day"...
>
> It is not a hard-and-fast requirement however, as there is a fairly narrow
> set of circumstances (available since v7.3.3) where it is possible to
> recover using backups and archivelogs generated prior to an OPEN RESETLOGS
> and then continue the roll-forward using archivelogs generated after the
> RESETLOGS, but there several "gotchas" that can mess that up.  It would be
a
> gamble to rely on pulling that rabbit out of the hat...
>
> If you ever find yourself entering the command ALTER DATABASE OPEN
RESETLOGS
> on a database that you *really* care about (should be recognized by the
same
> shallow-breathing sweaty-palm symptoms you get when you say, "...now, just
> hand the gun to me, slowly..."), then please get an immediate "cold"
backup
> before opening the database to users.  You may have to argue for it, but
be
> sure to leave time for it when folks are asking, "When will the database
be
> back?"
>
> ..other than that situation, there is no advantage of a "cold" backup over
> a "hot" backup;  just my $0.02...
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:33 AM
>
>
> > Cold backup is very good because I don't have to monitor database during
> the
> > cold backup, no objects will run out of space and I can enjoy a peaceful
> time
> > without any chance for my beeper to go off. You must admit that a cold
> backup
> > cannot guarantee you that. Unfortunately, my bosses somehow  got the
> curious idea
> > that they have paid big bucks for all those HP 9000 to work and not to
sit
> idle. They
> > even calculated a downtime cost per hour for each critical system and
they
> are extremely
> > reluctant to  have them down for extended periods of time (1.1 TB
database
> cannot be
> > backed up in minutes, even with Asymmetrix). That i

Re: Backups

[Ruth Gramolini]

Tim, et.al,

We use rman on 8.0.6.3 databases.  One of our duvelopers was trying to
delete records from a table and her query deleted everything  from the
table.  This caused the application to fail and a point-in_time recovery was
nessessary.  I was given a time of 11:00AM.  I had recovered the database
until 11:00AM and before opening the database with resetlogs, I asked if the
time was correct.  After several minutes of discussion with all concerned,
it was decided that actually we needed to recovery until 9:00AM.  I changed
the until time in the restore script, restored the database until 9:00AM and
recovered it and opened it resetlogs.  I had no problem with this.

Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:08 PM


The one situation where a cold backup can be considered necessary is
following an OPEN RESETLOGS.  If you have a "no data loss" requirement and
you are in ARCHIVELOG mode, then there is a window following an OPEN
RESETLOGS where, if the media crashes prior to completing a "hot" backup,
you could be unrecoverable.  File that one under "a bad day"...

It is not a hard-and-fast requirement however, as there is a fairly narrow
set of circumstances (available since v7.3.3) where it is possible to
recover using backups and archivelogs generated prior to an OPEN RESETLOGS
and then continue the roll-forward using archivelogs generated after the
RESETLOGS, but there several "gotchas" that can mess that up.  It would be a
gamble to rely on pulling that rabbit out of the hat...

If you ever find yourself entering the command ALTER DATABASE OPEN RESETLOGS
on a database that you *really* care about (should be recognized by the same
shallow-breathing sweaty-palm symptoms you get when you say, "...now, just
hand the gun to me, slowly..."), then please get an immediate "cold" backup
before opening the database to users.  You may have to argue for it, but be
sure to leave time for it when folks are asking, "When will the database be
back?"

...other than that situation, there is no advantage of a "cold" backup over
a "hot" backup;  just my $0.02...

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:33 AM


> Cold backup is very good because I don't have to monitor database during
the
> cold backup, no objects will run out of space and I can enjoy a peaceful
time
> without any chance for my beeper to go off. You must admit that a cold
backup
> cannot guarantee you that. Unfortunately, my bosses somehow  got the
curious idea
> that they have paid big bucks for all those HP 9000 to work and not to sit
idle. They
> even calculated a downtime cost per hour for each critical system and they
are extremely
> reluctant to  have them down for extended periods of time (1.1 TB database
cannot be
> backed up in minutes, even with Asymmetrix). That is why they bought me a
toy called
> OPS and why there are policies and procedures about who and how gets
things in the
> production database. I would love to do cold backup every day from 8 PM
until 7 AM and
> during Sunday football games but it is not very likely that my wish will
come true.
> Starlight, starbright, first star I see tonight, I wish I may, I wish I
might have
> the wish I wish tonight. That is my best chance to get cold backups every
day.
>
>
>
> On 2002.10.04 01:38 Jared Still wrote:
> >
> > OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> >
> > The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> > somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> >
> > I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> >
> > No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> >
> > There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> >
> > I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
> > you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have
his
> > > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete
filesystem
> > > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep
good at
> > > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but
when
> > > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > > be needed on occassion.
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> > >
> > > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've
been
> > > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> > >
> > > Tom Mercadante
> > > Oracle Certified Professional
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > 

Re: Backups

[Gene Sais]

I stand corrected.  Guess I shouldn't rely on memory, it keeps failing on those DBA 
sessions :)  Just don't remember anyone doing hot backups during Oracle 6.

Thanks,
Gene

PS. (DBA=DrinkBeerAgain)

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 16:23 PM >>>
gentle correction:  oracle6 had "hot" backup capability...

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:48 AM


Oracle 6 and prior releases required cold backups.  Hot backups became
available in version 7.  The trend appears RMAN is the new way!  Still
waiting for Robert Freeman's new book :).

Gene

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 10:03AM >>>


One of the local dbas said to me recently that Oracle docs
indicate that cold backups are required.  I did a search and
could not find what he was talking about.  Anyone got such a
reference?




On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:38:20PM -0800, Jared Still wrote:
>
> OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
>
> The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
>
> I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
>
> No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
>
> There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
>
> I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
> you that a hot backup won't deliver.
>
> Jared
>
> On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> > than a corrupted database.  cold backups ae a good thing.  i sleep good
at
> > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but
when
> > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > be needed on occassion.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> >
> > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> >
> > Tom Mercadante
> > Oracle Certified Professional
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> >
> > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > Ron
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> >
> > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > rman
> > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> >
> >
> > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> >
> > John P Weatherman
> > Database Administrator
> > Replacements Ltd.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > database must be closed wen you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > won't be
> > able to recover.
> >
> > Just a thot,
> > Ruth
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> >
> >
> > Robyn,
> >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > a
> > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > function
> > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > the dd tape.
> > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > Ron
> >  ROR m???m
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > moves the files to tape.
> >
> > Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> > provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> > system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided 

Re: Backups

[Gene Sais]

I stand corrected.  Guess I shouldn't rely on memory, it keeps failing on those DBA 
sessions :)  Just don't remember anyone doing hot backups during Oracle 6.

Thanks,
Gene

PS. (DBA=DrinkBeerAgain)

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 16:23 PM >>>
gentle correction:  oracle6 had "hot" backup capability...

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:48 AM


Oracle 6 and prior releases required cold backups.  Hot backups became
available in version 7.  The trend appears RMAN is the new way!  Still
waiting for Robert Freeman's new book :).

Gene

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 10:03AM >>>


One of the local dbas said to me recently that Oracle docs
indicate that cold backups are required.  I did a search and
could not find what he was talking about.  Anyone got such a
reference?




On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:38:20PM -0800, Jared Still wrote:
>
> OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
>
> The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
>
> I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
>
> No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
>
> There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
>
> I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
> you that a hot backup won't deliver.
>
> Jared
>
> On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> > than a corrupted database.  cold backups ae a good thing.  i sleep good
at
> > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but
when
> > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > be needed on occassion.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> >
> > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> >
> > Tom Mercadante
> > Oracle Certified Professional
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> >
> > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > Ron
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> >
> > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > rman
> > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> >
> >
> > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> >
> > John P Weatherman
> > Database Administrator
> > Replacements Ltd.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > database must be closed wen you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > won't be
> > able to recover.
> >
> > Just a thot,
> > Ruth
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> >
> >
> > Robyn,
> >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > a
> > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > function
> > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > the dd tape.
> > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > Ron
> >  ROR m???m
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > moves the files to tape.
> >
> > Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> > provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> > system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided 

Re: Backups

[Jared . Still]

After a RESETLOGS is one I had in mind.

I understand that you  must do cold backups on Oracle Directory Server 
repositories (LDAP)

Backing up RMAN catalogs cold is not a bad idea either.

Jared





"Tim Gorman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10/04/2002 02:08 PM
 Please respond to ORACLE-L

 
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
        Subject:Re: Backups


The one situation where a cold backup can be considered necessary is
following an OPEN RESETLOGS.  If you have a "no data loss" requirement and
you are in ARCHIVELOG mode, then there is a window following an OPEN
RESETLOGS where, if the media crashes prior to completing a "hot" backup,
you could be unrecoverable.  File that one under "a bad day"...

It is not a hard-and-fast requirement however, as there is a fairly narrow
set of circumstances (available since v7.3.3) where it is possible to
recover using backups and archivelogs generated prior to an OPEN RESETLOGS
and then continue the roll-forward using archivelogs generated after the
RESETLOGS, but there several "gotchas" that can mess that up.  It would be 
a
gamble to rely on pulling that rabbit out of the hat...

If you ever find yourself entering the command ALTER DATABASE OPEN 
RESETLOGS
on a database that you *really* care about (should be recognized by the 
same
shallow-breathing sweaty-palm symptoms you get when you say, "...now, just
hand the gun to me, slowly..."), then please get an immediate "cold" 
backup
before opening the database to users.  You may have to argue for it, but 
be
sure to leave time for it when folks are asking, "When will the database 
be
back?"

...other than that situation, there is no advantage of a "cold" backup 
over
a "hot" backup;  just my $0.02...

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:33 AM


> Cold backup is very good because I don't have to monitor database during
the
> cold backup, no objects will run out of space and I can enjoy a peaceful
time
> without any chance for my beeper to go off. You must admit that a cold
backup
> cannot guarantee you that. Unfortunately, my bosses somehow  got the
curious idea
> that they have paid big bucks for all those HP 9000 to work and not to 
sit
idle. They
> even calculated a downtime cost per hour for each critical system and 
they
are extremely
> reluctant to  have them down for extended periods of time (1.1 TB 
database
cannot be
> backed up in minutes, even with Asymmetrix). That is why they bought me 
a
toy called
> OPS and why there are policies and procedures about who and how gets
things in the
> production database. I would love to do cold backup every day from 8 PM
until 7 AM and
> during Sunday football games but it is not very likely that my wish will
come true.
> Starlight, starbright, first star I see tonight, I wish I may, I wish I
might have
> the wish I wish tonight. That is my best chance to get cold backups 
every
day.
>
>
>
> On 2002.10.04 01:38 Jared Still wrote:
> >
> > OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> >
> > The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> > somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> >
> > I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> >
> > No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> >
> > There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> >
> > I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
> > you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have
his
> > > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete
filesystem
> > > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep
good at
> > > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox. but
when
> > > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > > be needed on occassion.
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> > >
> > > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've
been
> >

Re: Backups

[Tim Gorman]

The one situation where a cold backup can be considered necessary is
following an OPEN RESETLOGS.  If you have a "no data loss" requirement and
you are in ARCHIVELOG mode, then there is a window following an OPEN
RESETLOGS where, if the media crashes prior to completing a "hot" backup,
you could be unrecoverable.  File that one under "a bad day"...

It is not a hard-and-fast requirement however, as there is a fairly narrow
set of circumstances (available since v7.3.3) where it is possible to
recover using backups and archivelogs generated prior to an OPEN RESETLOGS
and then continue the roll-forward using archivelogs generated after the
RESETLOGS, but there several "gotchas" that can mess that up.  It would be a
gamble to rely on pulling that rabbit out of the hat...

If you ever find yourself entering the command ALTER DATABASE OPEN RESETLOGS
on a database that you *really* care about (should be recognized by the same
shallow-breathing sweaty-palm symptoms you get when you say, "...now, just
hand the gun to me, slowly..."), then please get an immediate "cold" backup
before opening the database to users.  You may have to argue for it, but be
sure to leave time for it when folks are asking, "When will the database be
back?"

...other than that situation, there is no advantage of a "cold" backup over
a "hot" backup;  just my $0.02...

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:33 AM


> Cold backup is very good because I don't have to monitor database during
the
> cold backup, no objects will run out of space and I can enjoy a peaceful
time
> without any chance for my beeper to go off. You must admit that a cold
backup
> cannot guarantee you that. Unfortunately, my bosses somehow  got the
curious idea
> that they have paid big bucks for all those HP 9000 to work and not to sit
idle. They
> even calculated a downtime cost per hour for each critical system and they
are extremely
> reluctant to  have them down for extended periods of time (1.1 TB database
cannot be
> backed up in minutes, even with Asymmetrix). That is why they bought me a
toy called
> OPS and why there are policies and procedures about who and how gets
things in the
> production database. I would love to do cold backup every day from 8 PM
until 7 AM and
> during Sunday football games but it is not very likely that my wish will
come true.
> Starlight, starbright, first star I see tonight, I wish I may, I wish I
might have
> the wish I wish tonight. That is my best chance to get cold backups every
day.
>
>
>
> On 2002.10.04 01:38 Jared Still wrote:
> >
> > OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> >
> > The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> > somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> >
> > I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> >
> > No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> >
> > There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> >
> > I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
> > you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have
his
> > > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete
filesystem
> > > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep
good at
> > > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but
when
> > > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > > be needed on occassion.
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> > >
> > > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've
been
> > > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> > >
> > > Tom Mercadante
> > > Oracle Certified Professional
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> > >
> > > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > > Ron
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> > >
> > > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > > rman
> > > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > > Ruth
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like 

Re: Backups

[Tim Gorman]

gentle correction:  oracle6 had "hot" backup capability...

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:48 AM


Oracle 6 and prior releases required cold backups.  Hot backups became
available in version 7.  The trend appears RMAN is the new way!  Still
waiting for Robert Freeman's new book :).

Gene

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 10:03AM >>>


One of the local dbas said to me recently that Oracle docs
indicate that cold backups are required.  I did a search and
could not find what he was talking about.  Anyone got such a
reference?




On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:38:20PM -0800, Jared Still wrote:
>
> OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
>
> The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
>
> I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
>
> No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
>
> There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
>
> I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
> you that a hot backup won't deliver.
>
> Jared
>
> On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good
at
> > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but
when
> > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > be needed on occassion.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> >
> > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> >
> > Tom Mercadante
> > Oracle Certified Professional
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> >
> > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > Ron
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> >
> > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > rman
> > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> >
> >
> > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> >
> > John P Weatherman
> > Database Administrator
> > Replacements Ltd.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > won't be
> > able to recover.
> >
> > Just a thot,
> > Ruth
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> >
> >
> > Robyn,
> >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > a
> > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > function
> > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > the dd tape.
> > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > Ron
> >  ROR m???m
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > moves the files to tape.
> >
> > Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> > provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> > system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> > ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> > recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> > backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
> >
> > Robyn
> >
> > --
> > P

Re: Backups

[Jared . Still]

>  4) Old habits are hard to break :).

Ah, there we have it.  ;)

Jared






"Gene Sais" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10/04/2002 07:28 AM
 Please respond to ORACLE-L

 
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
    Subject:Re: Backups


lol, OK my reasons for occasional cold backups.  As a prior sysadmin, I 
prefer single user mode full filesystem backups (i.e. databases shut down) 
prior to any upgrade whether its an application, database, or operating 
system.  There are benefits of cold over hot backups (of course this 
assumes you have the luxury to take a database offline):

1) Archive logs not needed.

2) No need to be concerned which databases are in archivelog mode.

3) Easier to backup and restore, even the sysadmin can do it :), i.e. no 
DBA required, no database recovery.  OS utilities can be used for 
backup/restore.

4) Old habits are hard to break :).

Gene

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 01:38AM >>>

OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)

The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.

I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...

No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)

There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.

I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying 
you that a hot backup won't deliver.

Jared

On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i 
prefer
> to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good 
at
> nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but 
when
> that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will 
still
> be needed on occassion.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
>
> I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
>
>
> I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
>
> Tom Mercadante
> Oracle Certified Professional
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
>
> Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> Ron
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
>
> I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> rman
> to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
>
>
> This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
>
> John P Weatherman
> Database Administrator
> Replacements Ltd.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> won't be
> able to recover.
>
> Just a thot,
> Ruth
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
>
>
> Robyn,
>  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> a
> small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> function
> is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> the dd tape.
> Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> Ron
>  ROR mª¿ªm
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
>
> Hello,
>
> I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> have impl

Re: Backups

[Ruth Gramolini]

I would do a cold backup of the Oracle executables and application stuff but
I would do an rman level 0 for the database(s).

Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:18 PM


Not mentioning that there is usually hot in Florida, so cold is good.

Saying that, I wonder how many people would go into software upgrade or a
major change without a full cold backup.

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:28 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


lol, OK my reasons for occasional cold backups.  As a prior sysadmin, I
prefer single user mode full filesystem backups (i.e. databases shut down)
prior to any upgrade whether its an application, database, or operating
system.  There are benefits of cold over hot backups (of course this assumes
you have the luxury to take a database offline):

1) Archive logs not needed.

2) No need to be concerned which databases are in archivelog mode.

3) Easier to backup and restore, even the sysadmin can do it :), i.e. no DBA
required, no database recovery.  OS utilities can be used for
backup/restore.

4) Old habits are hard to break :).

Gene

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 01:38AM >>>

OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)

The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.

I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...

No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)

There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.

I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
you that a hot backup won't deliver.

Jared

On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good
at
> nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but when
> that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will still
> be needed on occassion.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
>
> I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
>
>
> I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
>
> Tom Mercadante
> Oracle Certified Professional
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
>
> Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> Ron
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
>
> I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> rman
> to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
>
>
> This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
>
> John P Weatherman
> Database Administrator
> Replacements Ltd.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> won't be
> able to recover.
>
> Just a thot,
> Ruth
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
>
>
> Robyn,
>  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> a
> small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> function
> is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> the dd tape.
> Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> Ron
>  ROR mª¿ªm
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
>
> Hello,
>
> I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> moves the files to tape.
>
> Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> provides a succinct output he can email t

RE: Backups

[Miller, Jay]

I believe it shows up in some upgrade documentation. I know our Oracle rep
recommended it.

And I'll admit that I did a cold backup before my upgrade rather than hot
just because it's a little easier to recover from if a problem arises (I
just padded the downtime for my upgrade to include the cold backup time).

Jay Miller

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:03 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L




One of the local dbas said to me recently that Oracle docs
indicate that cold backups are required.  I did a search and
could not find what he was talking about.  Anyone got such a 
reference?  




On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:38:20PM -0800, Jared Still wrote:
> 
> OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> 
> The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> 
> I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> 
> No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> 
> There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> 
> I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying 
> you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> 
> Jared
> 
> On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good
at
> > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but
when
> > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > be needed on occassion.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> >
> > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> >
> > Tom Mercadante
> > Oracle Certified Professional
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> >
> > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > Ron
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> >
> > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > rman
> > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> >
> >
> > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> >
> > John P Weatherman
> > Database Administrator
> > Replacements Ltd.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > won't be
> > able to recover.
> >
> > Just a thot,
> > Ruth
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> >
> >
> > Robyn,
> >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > a
> > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > function
> > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > the dd tape.
> > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > Ron
> >  ROR m???m
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > moves the files to tape.
> >
> > Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> > provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> > system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> > ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> > recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> > backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
> >
> > R

RE: Backups

[Mercadante, Thomas F]

I agree with you Ruth.

Ray, this may be something that your local DBA read in an older manual
someplace.

Have your DBA start reading about Rman.  If he/she needs to see it in a
book, it might change his/her mind.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I never heard that, and I never do them, except my recovery catalog database
which I can shut down.

Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:03 AM


>
>
> One of the local dbas said to me recently that Oracle docs
> indicate that cold backups are required.  I did a search and
> could not find what he was talking about.  Anyone got such a
> reference?
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:38:20PM -0800, Jared Still wrote:
> >
> > OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> >
> > The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> > somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> >
> > I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> >
> > No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> >
> > There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> >
> > I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
> > you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have
his
> > > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete
filesystem
> > > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep
good at
> > > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but
when
> > > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > > be needed on occassion.
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> > >
> > > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've
been
> > > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> > >
> > > Tom Mercadante
> > > Oracle Certified Professional
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> > >
> > > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > > Ron
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> > >
> > > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > > rman
> > > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > > Ruth
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> > >
> > > John P Weatherman
> > > Database Administrator
> > > Replacements Ltd.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > > database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > > won't be
> > > able to recover.
> > >
> > > Just a thot,
> > > Ruth
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > Robyn,
> > >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > > a
> > > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > > function
> > > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > > the dd tape.
> > > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > > Ron
> > >  ROR m???m
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > > moves the files to tape.
> > >
> > > Here's th

RE: Backups

[Inka Bezdziecka]

Not mentioning that there is usually hot in Florida, so cold is good.

Saying that, I wonder how many people would go into software upgrade or a major change 
without a full cold backup.

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:28 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


lol, OK my reasons for occasional cold backups.  As a prior sysadmin, I prefer single 
user mode full filesystem backups (i.e. databases shut down) prior to any upgrade 
whether its an application, database, or operating system.  There are benefits of cold 
over hot backups (of course this assumes you have the luxury to take a database 
offline):

1) Archive logs not needed.

2) No need to be concerned which databases are in archivelog mode.

3) Easier to backup and restore, even the sysadmin can do it :), i.e. no DBA required, 
no database recovery.  OS utilities can be used for backup/restore.

4) Old habits are hard to break :).

Gene

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 01:38AM >>>

OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)

The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.

I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...

No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)

There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.

I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying 
you that a hot backup won't deliver.

Jared

On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i prefer
> to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good at
> nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but when
> that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will still
> be needed on occassion.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
>
> I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
>
>
> I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
>
> Tom Mercadante
> Oracle Certified Professional
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
>
> Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> Ron
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
>
> I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> rman
> to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
>
>
> This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
>
> John P Weatherman
> Database Administrator
> Replacements Ltd.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> won't be
> able to recover.
>
> Just a thot,
> Ruth
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
>
>
> Robyn,
>  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> a
> small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> function
> is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> the dd tape.
> Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> Ron
>  ROR mª¿ªm
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
>
> Hello,
>
> I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> moves the files to tape.
>
> Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> backup method? T

Re: Backups

[Gene Sais]

Oracle 6 and prior releases required cold backups.  Hot backups became available in 
version 7.  The trend appears RMAN is the new way!  Still waiting for Robert Freeman's 
new book :).

Gene

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 10:03AM >>>


One of the local dbas said to me recently that Oracle docs
indicate that cold backups are required.  I did a search and
could not find what he was talking about.  Anyone got such a 
reference?  




On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:38:20PM -0800, Jared Still wrote:
> 
> OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> 
> The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> 
> I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> 
> No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> 
> There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> 
> I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying 
> you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> 
> Jared
> 
> On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i prefer
> > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good at
> > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but when
> > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will still
> > be needed on occassion.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> >
> > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> >
> > Tom Mercadante
> > Oracle Certified Professional
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> >
> > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > Ron
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> >
> > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > rman
> > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> >
> >
> > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> >
> > John P Weatherman
> > Database Administrator
> > Replacements Ltd.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > won't be
> > able to recover.
> >
> > Just a thot,
> > Ruth
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> >
> >
> > Robyn,
> >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > a
> > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > function
> > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > the dd tape.
> > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > Ron
> >  ROR m???m
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > moves the files to tape.
> >
> > Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> > provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> > system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> > ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> > recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> > backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
> >
> > Robyn
> >
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com 
> > --
> > Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-

Re: Backups

[Ruth Gramolini]

I never heard that, and I never do them, except my recovery catalog database
which I can shut down.

Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:03 AM


>
>
> One of the local dbas said to me recently that Oracle docs
> indicate that cold backups are required.  I did a search and
> could not find what he was talking about.  Anyone got such a
> reference?
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:38:20PM -0800, Jared Still wrote:
> >
> > OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> >
> > The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> > somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> >
> > I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> >
> > No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> >
> > There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> >
> > I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying
> > you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i
prefer
> > > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have
his
> > > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete
filesystem
> > > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep
good at
> > > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but
when
> > > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will
still
> > > be needed on occassion.
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> > >
> > > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've
been
> > > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> > >
> > > Tom Mercadante
> > > Oracle Certified Professional
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> > >
> > > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > > Ron
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> > >
> > > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > > rman
> > > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > > Ruth
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> > >
> > > John P Weatherman
> > > Database Administrator
> > > Replacements Ltd.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > > database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > > won't be
> > > able to recover.
> > >
> > > Just a thot,
> > > Ruth
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > Robyn,
> > >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > > a
> > > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > > function
> > > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > > the dd tape.
> > > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > > Ron
> > >  ROR m???m
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > > moves the files to tape.
> > >
> > > Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> > > provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> > > system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> > > ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> > > recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> > > backup met

Re: Backups

[Gene Sais]

lol, OK my reasons for occasional cold backups.  As a prior sysadmin, I prefer single 
user mode full filesystem backups (i.e. databases shut down) prior to any upgrade 
whether its an application, database, or operating system.  There are benefits of cold 
over hot backups (of course this assumes you have the luxury to take a database 
offline):

1) Archive logs not needed.

2) No need to be concerned which databases are in archivelog mode.

3) Easier to backup and restore, even the sysadmin can do it :), i.e. no DBA required, 
no database recovery.  OS utilities can be used for backup/restore.

4) Old habits are hard to break :).

Gene

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/02 01:38AM >>>

OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)

The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.

I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...

No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)

There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.

I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying 
you that a hot backup won't deliver.

Jared

On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i prefer
> to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good at
> nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but when
> that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will still
> be needed on occassion.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
>
> I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
>
>
> I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
>
> Tom Mercadante
> Oracle Certified Professional
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
>
> Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> Ron
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
>
> I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> rman
> to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
>
>
> This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
>
> John P Weatherman
> Database Administrator
> Replacements Ltd.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> won't be
> able to recover.
>
> Just a thot,
> Ruth
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
>
>
> Robyn,
>  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> a
> small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> function
> is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> the dd tape.
> Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> Ron
>  ROR mª¿ªm
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
>
> Hello,
>
> I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> moves the files to tape.
>
> Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
>
> Robyn
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com 
> --
> Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com 
> San Diego, California-- Mailing l

Re: Backups

[Ray Stell]

One of the local dbas said to me recently that Oracle docs
indicate that cold backups are required.  I did a search and
could not find what he was talking about.  Anyone got such a 
reference?  




On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:38:20PM -0800, Jared Still wrote:
> 
> OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> 
> The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> 
> I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> 
> No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> 
> There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> 
> I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying 
> you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> 
> Jared
> 
> On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i prefer
> > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good at
> > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but when
> > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will still
> > be needed on occassion.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> >
> > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> >
> > Tom Mercadante
> > Oracle Certified Professional
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> >
> > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > Ron
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> >
> > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > rman
> > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> >
> >
> > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> >
> > John P Weatherman
> > Database Administrator
> > Replacements Ltd.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > won't be
> > able to recover.
> >
> > Just a thot,
> > Ruth
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> >
> >
> > Robyn,
> >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > a
> > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > function
> > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > the dd tape.
> > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > Ron
> >  ROR m???m
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > moves the files to tape.
> >
> > Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> > provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> > system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> > ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> > recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> > backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
> >
> > Robyn
> >
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> > --
> > Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail 

RE: Backups

[Mercadante, Thomas F]

Dennis,

I guess you just gotta have faith after a complete test of various types of
recovery that the software works.  Once it passes all your tests, and you
are comfortable that it orks as advertised, it's just a matter of going for
it.  

I am also convinced that Oracle support is able to help with Rman recovery
as long as you use the software in an approved manner.  This is one reason
that I always stress to people on this list to use Oracle as the
documentation says to use it - like the discussion the other day about
putting indexes on SYS objects.  Stuff like this gets you in trouble sooner
or later.

Cold backups are a good thing for the installed software.  Stuff like the OS
system files, Oracle software etc.

But, in my view, we (as DBA's) just don't have the luxury anymore of taking
a database offline for a backup - the costs (both in real $$'s and
politically) are just too high.  Especially when we are provided tools that
are reliable.  And Rman has entered this category.

Just my 2 cents.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:08 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Ruth, Tom, or anyone
   So what is the final checklist before you take a deep breath and stop
cold backups. I have successfully run a disaster recovery test, but after so
many years of the comfort of a cold to go back to, it sorta takes you back.


Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:33 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM


I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: Backups

[Gesler, Rich]

Isn't the "object point in time recovery" called LogMiner?  :)

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:11 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



You are lucky to have all your databases in archivelog mode. We have large
datawarehouses here, where business is quite acceptable to a recovery from
a cold backup taken 3 months earlier. RMAN is goood, but waiting for
Oracle to come out with an object point in time recovery, before we can
completely do away with exports. Not that it cannot be done using RMAN, but
with limited resources at our disposal, a logical backup and restore is
much easier. Having said that, we use RMAN for 90% of our databases, and HP
omniback as the media manager.

Raj




   

"Mercadante,   

Thomas F"   To: Multiple recipients of list 
ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]cc:

ate.ny.us>  Subject: RE: Backups   

Sent by:   

[EMAIL PROTECTED]   

   

   

October 03, 2002   

04:17 PM   

Please respond 

to ORACLE-L

   

   





I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another in

Re: Backups

[Mladen Gogala]

Cold backup is very good because I don't have to monitor database during the 
cold backup, no objects will run out of space and I can enjoy a peaceful time 
without any chance for my beeper to go off. You must admit that a cold backup 
cannot guarantee you that. Unfortunately, my bosses somehow  got the curious idea
that they have paid big bucks for all those HP 9000 to work and not to sit idle. They 
even calculated a downtime cost per hour for each critical system and they are 
extremely
reluctant to  have them down for extended periods of time (1.1 TB database cannot be
backed up in minutes, even with Asymmetrix). That is why they bought me a toy called 
OPS and why there are policies and procedures about who and how gets things in the 
production database. I would love to do cold backup every day from 8 PM until 7 AM and
during Sunday football games but it is not very likely that my wish will come true.
Starlight, starbright, first star I see tonight, I wish I may, I wish I might have
the wish I wish tonight. That is my best chance to get cold backups every day.



On 2002.10.04 01:38 Jared Still wrote:
> 
> OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)
> 
> The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
> somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.
> 
> I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...
> 
> No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)
> 
> There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.
> 
> I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying 
> you that a hot backup won't deliver.
> 
> Jared
> 
> On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> > wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i prefer
> > to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> > way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> > than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good at
> > nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but when
> > that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will still
> > be needed on occassion.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
> >
> > I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
> >
> >
> > I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> > using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
> >
> > Tom Mercadante
> > Oracle Certified Professional
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
> >
> > Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> > Ron
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
> >
> > I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> > rman
> > to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> > Ruth
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
> >
> >
> > This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> > backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> > is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> > come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
> >
> > John P Weatherman
> > Database Administrator
> > Replacements Ltd.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> > database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> > won't be
> > able to recover.
> >
> > Just a thot,
> > Ruth
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
> >
> >
> > Robyn,
> >  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> > fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> > a
> > small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> > on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> > function
> > is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> > sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> > the dd tape.
> > Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> > Ron
> >  ROR mª¿ªm
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> > have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> > separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> > moves the files to tape.
> >
>

Re: Backups

[Jared Still]

OK, Gene, you asked for it.  :)

The context of your message suggests that a hot backup is
somehow more likely to be corrupted than a cold one.

I hate to resurrect an old flame war, but...

No, I take it back.  I don't hate it a bit.  ;)

There aren't many occasions that call for a cold backup.

I'm just curious what you believe a cold backup is buying 
you that a hot backup won't deliver.

Jared

On Thursday 03 October 2002 14:54, Gene Sais wrote:
> wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i prefer
> to shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his
> way.  if he screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem
> than a corrupted database.  cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good at
> nite :)  soon, rman will be another backup method in my toolbox.  but when
> that happens, i can see hot backups going away but cold backups will still
> be needed on occassion.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
>
> I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM
>
>
> I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
> using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.
>
> Tom Mercadante
> Oracle Certified Professional
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
>
> Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
> Ron
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
>
> I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
> rman
> to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
> Ruth
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
>
>
> This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
> backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
> is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
> come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?
>
> John P Weatherman
> Database Administrator
> Replacements Ltd.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
> database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
> won't be
> able to recover.
>
> Just a thot,
> Ruth
>
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM
>
>
> Robyn,
>  We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
> fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
> a
> small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
> on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
> function
> is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
> sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
> the dd tape.
> Other users will know about the transportability issues.
> Ron
>  ROR mª¿ªm
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
>
> Hello,
>
> I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> moves the files to tape.
>
> Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
>
> Robyn
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
> -
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Ron Rogers
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hostin

RE: Backups

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Ruth, Tom, or anyone
   So what is the final checklist before you take a deep breath and stop
cold backups. I have successfully run a disaster recovery test, but after so
many years of the comfort of a cold to go back to, it sorta takes you back.


Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:33 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM


I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Ron Rogers
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

--
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--
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  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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ng list and web hosting services
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RE: RE: RE: Backups

[Jared . Still]

Not using any version of it now.

Veritas Net Backup and RMAN.

When BMC purchased DataTools, the support for SQL*Backtrack
really went down the tubes.  I don't know if it's improved or not, but
I don't really miss it now.

Jared





"Smith, Ron L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10/03/2002 02:38 PM
 Please respond to ORACLE-L

 
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
    Subject:RE: RE: RE: Backups


You must be using an old version.  Been there done that.  Works!

Ron

PS: Also works on NT!

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:11 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Unless:

You do a point in time recovery, find out you were
given the wrong time, and try  to do it again.

Not so simple, can't be done from the SQL*Bactrack menu.

Jared






"Smith, Ron L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10/03/2002 01:26 PM
 Please respond to ORACLE-L

 
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:RE: RE: RE: Backups


SQL Backtrack and Netbackup! No manual tracking.  Restores couldn't be
simpler.

R. Smith

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:04 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Richard,

Distateful is being nice.  Try down right horrifying is a more
appriopriate
description.  Been There, Done that, now have three Unix SA's who handle 
it.

Life is so grand!!

Dick Goulet

Reply Separator
Author: "Markham; Richard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   10/3/2002 10:53 AM

Yes I personally run Veritas Netbackup for both cold and RMAN.  A fiber
SAN has its added benefits as well =).  I have never really explored the
implications of these other utilities.  My head filled with many
distasteful visuals. Yes, I agree with you and I realize that I am
spoiled .

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:38 PM
To: Markham; Richard; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I've used cpio, dd, and fbackup to do hot and cold backups before, but 
never
again.  With those utilities the burden of keeping track of what is on 
which
tape rests with you and normally a stubby pencil & pad of paper because 
you
know
what won't be available when you need to do a recovery.  They do work be
assured, but the administrative overhead is just not worth it anymore, 
even
for
a small shop.  Get a copy of Veritas or OmniBack or some other software
package
that does library management for you and preferably integrates with RMAN.
Life
can be so much easier!!

Dick Goulet

Reply Separator
Author: "Markham; Richard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   10/3/2002 10:03 AM

It would be interesting to see how you would explain how either
cp or dd (which know nothing of archive log mode, or the concept
of hot backup, itself, none the less) is going to keep things
consistent, when these utilities themselves are for point in 
time operations.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover? 

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't 
be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
p

Re: Backups

[Gene Sais]

wow, never a cold backup for any os,oracle, application upgrades?  i prefer to 
shutdown everything, backup the filesystems, let the vendor have his way.  if he 
screws up, its much easier to restore a complete filesystem than a corrupted database. 
 cold backups are a good thing.  i sleep good at nite :)  soon, rman will be another 
backup method in my toolbox.  but when that happens, i can see hot backups going away 
but cold backups will still be needed on occassion.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 04:33PM >>>
I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM


I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com 
--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com 
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com 
--
Author: Ron Rogers
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

--
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--
Author: Ruth Gramolini
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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San Diego, California-- Maili
ng list and web hosting services
-

RE: RE: RE: Backups

[Smith, Ron L.]

You must be using an old version.  Been there done that.  Works!

Ron

PS: Also works on NT!

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:11 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Unless:

You do a point in time recovery, find out you were
given the wrong time, and try  to do it again.

Not so simple, can't be done from the SQL*Bactrack menu.

Jared






"Smith, Ron L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10/03/2002 01:26 PM
 Please respond to ORACLE-L

 
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
    Subject:RE: RE: RE: Backups


SQL Backtrack and Netbackup! No manual tracking.  Restores couldn't be
simpler.

R. Smith

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:04 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Richard,

Distateful is being nice.  Try down right horrifying is a more
appriopriate
description.  Been There, Done that, now have three Unix SA's who handle 
it.

Life is so grand!!

Dick Goulet

Reply Separator
Author: "Markham; Richard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   10/3/2002 10:53 AM

Yes I personally run Veritas Netbackup for both cold and RMAN.  A fiber
SAN has its added benefits as well =).  I have never really explored the
implications of these other utilities.  My head filled with many
distasteful visuals. Yes, I agree with you and I realize that I am
spoiled .

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:38 PM
To: Markham; Richard; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I've used cpio, dd, and fbackup to do hot and cold backups before, but 
never
again.  With those utilities the burden of keeping track of what is on 
which
tape rests with you and normally a stubby pencil & pad of paper because 
you
know
what won't be available when you need to do a recovery.  They do work be
assured, but the administrative overhead is just not worth it anymore, 
even
for
a small shop.  Get a copy of Veritas or OmniBack or some other software
package
that does library management for you and preferably integrates with RMAN.
Life
can be so much easier!!

Dick Goulet

Reply Separator
Author: "Markham; Richard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   10/3/2002 10:03 AM

It would be interesting to see how you would explain how either
cp or dd (which know nothing of archive log mode, or the concept
of hot backup, itself, none the less) is going to keep things
consistent, when these utilities themselves are for point in 
time operations.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover? 

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't 
be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 htt

RE: Backups

[Rajesh . Rao]

You are lucky to have all your databases in archivelog mode. We have large
datawarehouses here, where business is quite acceptable to a recovery from
a cold backup taken 3 months earlier. RMAN is goood, but waiting for
Oracle to come out with an object point in time recovery, before we can
completely do away with exports. Not that it cannot be done using RMAN, but
with limited resources at our disposal, a logical backup and restore is
much easier. Having said that, we use RMAN for 90% of our databases, and HP
omniback as the media manager.

Raj




   

"Mercadante,   

Thomas F"   To: Multiple recipients of list 
ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]cc:

ate.ny.us>      Subject: RE: Backups   

Sent by:   

[EMAIL PROTECTED]   

   

   

October 03, 2002   

04:17 PM   

Please respond 

to ORACLE-L

   

   





I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is bu

RE: RE: RE: Backups

[Jared . Still]

Unless:

You do a point in time recovery, find out you were
given the wrong time, and try  to do it again.

Not so simple, can't be done from the SQL*Bactrack menu.

Jared






"Smith, Ron L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10/03/2002 01:26 PM
 Please respond to ORACLE-L

 
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
    Subject:RE: RE: RE: Backups


SQL Backtrack and Netbackup! No manual tracking.  Restores couldn't be
simpler.

R. Smith

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:04 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Richard,

Distateful is being nice.  Try down right horrifying is a more
appriopriate
description.  Been There, Done that, now have three Unix SA's who handle 
it.

Life is so grand!!

Dick Goulet

Reply Separator
Author: "Markham; Richard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   10/3/2002 10:53 AM

Yes I personally run Veritas Netbackup for both cold and RMAN.  A fiber
SAN has its added benefits as well =).  I have never really explored the
implications of these other utilities.  My head filled with many
distasteful visuals. Yes, I agree with you and I realize that I am
spoiled .

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:38 PM
To: Markham; Richard; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I've used cpio, dd, and fbackup to do hot and cold backups before, but 
never
again.  With those utilities the burden of keeping track of what is on 
which
tape rests with you and normally a stubby pencil & pad of paper because 
you
know
what won't be available when you need to do a recovery.  They do work be
assured, but the administrative overhead is just not worth it anymore, 
even
for
a small shop.  Get a copy of Veritas or OmniBack or some other software
package
that does library management for you and preferably integrates with RMAN.
Life
can be so much easier!!

Dick Goulet

Reply Separator
Author: "Markham; Richard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   10/3/2002 10:03 AM

It would be interesting to see how you would explain how either
cp or dd (which know nothing of archive log mode, or the concept
of hot backup, itself, none the less) is going to keep things
consistent, when these utilities themselves are for point in 
time operations.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover? 

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't 
be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, s

Re: Backups

[Ruth Gramolini]

I don't do them either, 4.5 years here.  Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:17 PM


I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Ron Rogers
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

--
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--
Author: Ruth Gramolini
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Maili
ng list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
--
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--
Author: John Weatherman
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network S

RE: RE: RE: Backups

[Smith, Ron L.]

ECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
-
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

-- 
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-- 
Author: Ruth Gramolini
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).






RE: Backups



It would be interesting to see how you would explain how
either
cp or dd (which know nothing of archive log mode, or the
concept
of hot backup, itself, none the less) is going to keep
things
consistent, when these utilities themselves are for point
in

time operations.




-Original Message-
From: John Weatherman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>mailto:john.weatherman@replac
emen
ts.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Backups



This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot
backup
mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster
here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other
utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able
to
recover? 


John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.




-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



If you want to be able to use any OS backup for
restore/recovery
that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it
is
not, you won't be
able to recover.


Just a thot,
Ruth


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM



Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW
devices.
It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw
device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy
of
the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed.
The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I
don't
know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about
transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability
issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM
>>>
Hello,


I need some info about backups.  I am working on a
customer
site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both
jobs
copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another
individual
then
moves the files to tape.


Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily
because
it
provides a succinct output he can email to
non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've
provided
him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the
system
be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a
dd
for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.


Robyn


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TARGET="_blank">http://www.orafaq.com
--
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the me

RE: Backups

[Mercadante, Thomas F]

I haven't done nor recommended a cold backup in 3 years since I've been
using Rman.  Just not needed anymore.

Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

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--
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Re:RE: RE: Backups

[dgoulet]

ail message
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

-- 
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RE: Backups



It would be interesting to see how you would explain how
either
cp or dd (which know nothing of archive log mode, or the
concept
of hot backup, itself, none the less) is going to keep
things
consistent, when these utilities themselves are for point
in

time operations.




-Original Message-
From: John Weatherman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>mailto:john.weatherman@replac
emen
ts.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Backups



This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot
backup
mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster
here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other
utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able
to
recover? 


John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.




-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



If you want to be able to use any OS backup for
restore/recovery
that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it
is
not, you won't be
able to recover.


Just a thot,
Ruth


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM



Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW
devices.
It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw
device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy
of
the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed.
The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I
don't
know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about
transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability
issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM
>>>
Hello,


I need some info about backups.  I am working on a
customer
site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both
jobs
copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another
individual
then
moves the files to tape.


Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily
because
it
provides a succinct output he can email to
non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've
provided
him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the
system
be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a
dd
for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.


Robyn


--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com";
TARGET="_blank">http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like
subscribing).
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Please s

RE: Backups

[Steve McClure]

Title: RE: Backups



Lots 
of folks here on the list can explain it, but really you would get more 
from the Oracle Backup and Recovery Manual.  In short, you place your 
tablespaces in 'backup mode', one TS at a time is the prefered method.  You 
backup the datafiles associated with the Tablespaces in backup mode, using cp or 
tar or dd or whatever you prefer.  You end backup mode, perform a log 
switch, and backup all archived redo logs created during your backup.  You 
do this, and you can restore your backup, and Oracle will, for the purposes of 
this response, magically recover your database.
 
Steve 
McClure
60% 
certified and counting

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Markham, RichardSent: 
  Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:03 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list 
  ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Backups
  It would be interesting to see how you would explain how 
  either cp or dd (which know nothing of archive log 
  mode, or the concept of hot backup, itself, none the 
  less) is going to keep things consistent, when these 
  utilities themselves are for point in time 
  operations. 
  -Original Message- From: John 
  Weatherman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Backups 
  This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup 
  mode, backup (whether using cp to a staging point like 
  the poster here is doing or straight to tape using dd 
  or dump or some other utility), come out of hot backup 
  mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover? 
  John P Weatherman Database 
  Administrator Replacements Ltd. 
  -Original Message- Sent: 
  Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM To: Multiple 
  recipients of list ORACLE-L 
  If you want to be able to use any OS backup for 
  restore/recovery that database must be closed when you 
  do the backup.  If it is not, you won't be able 
  to recover. 
  Just a thot, Ruth 
  - Original Message - To: 
  "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM 
  Robyn,  We used the DD method on 
  pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked fine except 
  that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a 
  small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of 
  the data on tape should not be a problem if a restoral 
  is needed. The dd function is just another OS method 
  of copying data to a tape. I don't know for sure but I 
  think there might be some issues about transportability of the dd tape. Other users will know about the 
  transportability issues. Ron  ROR mª¿ªm 
  >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM 
  >>> Hello, 
  I need some info about backups.  I am working on a 
  customer site, and have implemented both exports and 
  hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a separate mount 
  point, and a job scripted by another individual then moves the files to tape. 
  Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily 
  because it provides a succinct output he can email to 
  non-technicals.  The file system is built on a 12 
  disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system 
  be recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever 
  relied on a dd for a daily backup method? The system 
  is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8. 
  Robyn 
  -- Please see the official ORACLE-L 
  FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- 
  Author: Robyn Anderson Sands   
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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  San Diego, 
  California    -- Mailing list and web 
  hosting services - 
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  message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling 
  of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line 
  containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing 
  list you want to be removed from).  You may also 
  send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). 
  -- Please see the official ORACLE-L 
  FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- 
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  FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -

Re: Backups

[Ruth Gramolini]

But of course, rman... backup archivelogs delete.  Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:28 PM


Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
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--
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Re: Backups

[Gene Sais]

I still prefer cold backups when performing full OS backups.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 02:28PM >>>
Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
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--
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RE: RE: Backups

[Markham, Richard]

Title: RE: RE: Backups





Yes I personally run Veritas Netbackup for both cold and RMAN.  A fiber
SAN has its added benefits as well =).  I have never really explored the
implications of these other utilities.  My head filled with many
distasteful visuals. Yes, I agree with you and I realize that I am
spoiled .


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:38 PM
To: Markham; Richard; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: Re:RE: Backups



I've used cpio, dd, and fbackup to do hot and cold backups before, but never
again.  With those utilities the burden of keeping track of what is on which
tape rests with you and normally a stubby pencil & pad of paper because you know
what won't be available when you need to do a recovery.  They do work be
assured, but the administrative overhead is just not worth it anymore, even for
a small shop.  Get a copy of Veritas or OmniBack or some other software package
that does library management for you and preferably integrates with RMAN.  Life
can be so much easier!!


Dick Goulet


Reply Separator____
Subject:    RE: Backups
Author: "Markham; Richard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:   10/3/2002 10:03 AM


It would be interesting to see how you would explain how either
cp or dd (which know nothing of archive log mode, or the concept
of hot backup, itself, none the less) is going to keep things
consistent, when these utilities themselves are for point in 
time operations.




-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover? 


John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.




-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't be
able to recover.


Just a thot,
Ruth


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM



Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,


I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.


Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.


Robyn


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--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
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Re: Backups

[Ron Rogers]

Lest we not forget the archivelogs also during this backup procedure.
Ron

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/02 01:53PM >>>
I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use
rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you
won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only
a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd
function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
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--
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-- 
Please see the offic

RE: Backups

[Markham, Richard]

Title: RE: Backups





It would be interesting to see how you would explain how either
cp or dd (which know nothing of archive log mode, or the concept
of hot backup, itself, none the less) is going to keep things
consistent, when these utilities themselves are for point in 
time operations.




-Original Message-
From: John Weatherman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Backups



This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover? 


John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.




-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't be
able to recover.


Just a thot,
Ruth


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM



Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,


I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.


Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.


Robyn


--
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--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
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Re: Backups

[Ruth Gramolini]

I forgot about alter tablespace begin backup; etc. I am spoiled, I use rman
to do online backups.  No problem with recovery!
Ruth
- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:18 PM


This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover?

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Fat City Network Services-- 858-5

RE: Backups

[John Weatherman]

This doesn't sound right.  Put the database in hot backup mode,
backup (whether using cp to a staging point like the poster here
is doing or straight to tape using dd or dump or some other utility),
come out of hot backup mode.  Why wouldn't you be able to recover? 

John P Weatherman
Database Administrator
Replacements Ltd.



-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
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--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: Backups

[Naveen Nahata]

I disagree. ALTER TABLESPACE tblsp_name BEGIN BACKUP, and you can copy the
datafiles of that tablespace using OS commands and use them for restore

Regards
Naveen

-Original Message-
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 7:48 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

--
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--
Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Backups

[Ruth Gramolini]

If you want to be able to use any OS backup for restore/recovery that
database must be closed when you do the backup.  If it is not, you won't be
able to recover.

Just a thot,
Ruth

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:08 AM


Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

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Re: Backups

[Ron Rogers]

Robyn,
 We used the DD method on pre 7.1 oracle with RAW devices. It worked
fine except that it  used a lot of tape dumping a raw device when only a
small portion was used. Using a dd command to place a copy of the data
on tape should not be a problem if a restoral is needed. The dd function
is just another OS method of copying data to a tape. I don't know for
sure but I think there might be some issues about transportability of
the dd tape.
Other users will know about the transportability issues.
Ron
 ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/02/02 08:08PM >>>
Hello,

I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and 
have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a 
separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then 
moves the files to tape.

Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it 
provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file 
system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a 
ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be 
recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily 
backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.

Robyn

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Re: Backups

[Robyn Anderson Sands]

Thank you for the response - I especially liked (& agreed with) the 
rant.  You expressed many of the same concerns that I have, but this is 
a small operation and there's a lot to clean up.  The application was 
installed in the system schema, the users all had 'SYSTEM' for their 
temporary tablespace, dual had 121 rows in it, backup was copying the 
wrong $ORACLE_HOME, the database and configuration files were in 
'unusual' locations and the developer uses a where clause to sequence 
his results instead of specifying 'order by'. Did I mention there's no 
test server?

Maybe I'll get them on RMAN eventually, and I will be testing the 
recovery process, but for now, I'll just be happy to get a complete 
backup on tape.  If anyone is aware of potential pitfalls to watch out 
for until the situation can be improved, I'd appreciate add'l input.

Robyn

Tim Gorman wrote:
> I've relied on "dd", mainly when working with "raw" devices.  "dd" is
> probably one of the oldest commands in the UNIX lexicon.  It's just another
> way to get the job done...
> 
> 
> RMAN is a *much* better solution.  After all, how are these exports, backup
> scripts, and what-not going to check the database for block corruption?  For
> archived redo logfile corruption?  How will someone be able to determine how
> many backups are on tape for each datafile and archived redo logfile?  Can
> you do trial restores, to test what's on tape?  Will any restore/recovery
> scenarios be scripted?
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:08 PM
> 
> 
> 
>>Hello,
>>
>>I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
>>have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
>>separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
>>moves the files to tape.
>>
>>Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
>>provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
>>system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
>>ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
>>recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
>>backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
>>
>>Robyn
>>
>>--
>>Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
>>--
>>Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
>>  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
>>San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
>>-
>>To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
>>to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
>>the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
>>(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
>>also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> 
> 


-- 
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Office: 404.816.6920
Mobile: 404.234.4873

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Re: Backups

[Tim Gorman]

I've relied on "dd", mainly when working with "raw" devices.  "dd" is
probably one of the oldest commands in the UNIX lexicon.  It's just another
way to get the job done...


RMAN is a *much* better solution.  After all, how are these exports, backup
scripts, and what-not going to check the database for block corruption?  For
archived redo logfile corruption?  How will someone be able to determine how
many backups are on tape for each datafile and archived redo logfile?  Can
you do trial restores, to test what's on tape?  Will any restore/recovery
scenarios be scripted?


- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:08 PM


> Hello,
>
> I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and
> have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a
> separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then
> moves the files to tape.
>
> Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it
> provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file
> system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a
> ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be
> recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily
> backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
>
> Robyn
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
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Re: Backups

[Ray Stell]

Yes, you can use dd to read a tape.

from man dd:

 Example 3: Reading a Tape Into an ASCII File

 This example reads an EBCDIC tape blocked ten 80-byte EBCDIC
 card images per block into the ASCII file x:

 example% dd if=/dev/tape of=x ibs=800 cbs=80 conv=ascii,lcase


Are you going to sleep well until you have tested and documented
the recovery procedure?  No.  




On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 04:08:27PM -0800, Robyn Anderson Sands wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I need some info about backups.  I am working on a customer site, and 
> have implemented both exports and hot backups.  Both jobs copy to a 
> separate mount point, and a job scripted by another individual then 
> moves the files to tape.
> 
> Here's the problem - he's using a dd command, primarily because it 
> provides a succinct output he can email to non-technicals.  The file 
> system is built on a 12 disk A1000 array.  We've provided him with a 
> ufsdump script, but he's doesn't want to use it. Can the system be 
> recovered from this tape?  Has anyone ever relied on a dd for a daily 
> backup method? The system is Oracle 9i on Solaris 8.
> 
> Robyn
> 
> -- 
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> -- 
> Author: Robyn Anderson Sands
>  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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===
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RE: Backups

[Mercadante, Thomas F]

Charlie,

I use Rman for all my backups.  I like to have my database's up and
available to the users all the time.

Rman makes backup and recovery a simple process.  For my production db's, I
will perform nightly Rman backups of the database and archivelog files, and
weekly Rman Validates for both types of backup.

For development, I perform twice-weekly database backups, with interspersed
archivelog backups with, again, weekly Rman Validates for both types of
backups.

Hope this helps


Tom Mercadante
Oracle Certified Professional


-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 9:38 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Charlie - Currently on most of our systems we do a weekly cold backup and
rely on archive logs for the rest of the week. We augment this with full
exports a couple of days/week. This is not ideal. Previously we did nightly
cold backups, but our systems grew to the point that wasn't practical. We
tried hot backups a couple of years ago, but the time between issuing the
start backup command and the system responding took too long on each
tablespace, so we had to give that up. If I tried that today, I would ask
this list for suggestions and might resolve the problem. 
Now we are looking at moving to RMAN. Depending on the size of your
system, you should consider RMAN. It seems to offer many advantages,
especially the ability to perform on-line backups with no penalties. We are
starting by backing up to disk because that appears to be a little simpler.
Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 7:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Charlie,
 We do a cold backup of the production database active tablespaces (36
GIG) each night and a cold backup each Sunday night of the full
database(active and read-only tablespaces 70 GIG). The reason we backup
the read-only each week is it is easier to restore from one tape and  I
do not control the backup script. I find it easier to have the group in
control of the backups to just backup the whole server once a week. Then
I do not have to double check them all the time if I make changes to the
database read-only data. Every 6 months I move a lot of data from the
active tables to the archive tables and the majority of the time it will
take 2 - 3 weeks to gat all the data moved( I have space limits on my
archivelog destination). It can be a challange to make sure another
department updates  and completes their work. Our system is primarly a
load in the am and query all day but there is a second instance that
contains all of the applications that are query and update
applications.
ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/29/02 04:33PM >>>
How many sites are doing cold backups? At what frequency?

How many sites are doing hot  backups? At what frequency?

Does anybody know the existance of any "Best Practices"
paper on the web that discuss the topic of Oracle backups?
If so, what's the URL?

TIA!

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10641 Scripps Summit Ct.
858-831-2229 San Diego, CA 92131
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RE: Backups

[DENNIS WILLIAMS]

Charlie - Currently on most of our systems we do a weekly cold backup and
rely on archive logs for the rest of the week. We augment this with full
exports a couple of days/week. This is not ideal. Previously we did nightly
cold backups, but our systems grew to the point that wasn't practical. We
tried hot backups a couple of years ago, but the time between issuing the
start backup command and the system responding took too long on each
tablespace, so we had to give that up. If I tried that today, I would ask
this list for suggestions and might resolve the problem. 
Now we are looking at moving to RMAN. Depending on the size of your
system, you should consider RMAN. It seems to offer many advantages,
especially the ability to perform on-line backups with no penalties. We are
starting by backing up to disk because that appears to be a little simpler.
Dennis Williams
DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 7:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Charlie,
 We do a cold backup of the production database active tablespaces (36
GIG) each night and a cold backup each Sunday night of the full
database(active and read-only tablespaces 70 GIG). The reason we backup
the read-only each week is it is easier to restore from one tape and  I
do not control the backup script. I find it easier to have the group in
control of the backups to just backup the whole server once a week. Then
I do not have to double check them all the time if I make changes to the
database read-only data. Every 6 months I move a lot of data from the
active tables to the archive tables and the majority of the time it will
take 2 - 3 weeks to gat all the data moved( I have space limits on my
archivelog destination). It can be a challange to make sure another
department updates  and completes their work. Our system is primarly a
load in the am and query all day but there is a second instance that
contains all of the applications that are query and update
applications.
ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/29/02 04:33PM >>>
How many sites are doing cold backups? At what frequency?

How many sites are doing hot  backups? At what frequency?

Does anybody know the existance of any "Best Practices"
paper on the web that discuss the topic of Oracle backups?
If so, what's the URL?

TIA!

-- 
Charlie Mengler  Maintenance Warehouse  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10641 Scripps Summit Ct.
858-831-2229 San Diego, CA 92131
Lead, follow, or at least have the courtesy to get out of my way!
-- 
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Re: Backups

[Ron Rogers]

Charlie,
 We do a cold backup of the production database active tablespaces (36
GIG) each night and a cold backup each Sunday night of the full
database(active and read-only tablespaces 70 GIG). The reason we backup
the read-only each week is it is easier to restore from one tape and  I
do not control the backup script. I find it easier to have the group in
control of the backups to just backup the whole server once a week. Then
I do not have to double check them all the time if I make changes to the
database read-only data. Every 6 months I move a lot of data from the
active tables to the archive tables and the majority of the time it will
take 2 - 3 weeks to gat all the data moved( I have space limits on my
archivelog destination). It can be a challange to make sure another
department updates  and completes their work. Our system is primarly a
load in the am and query all day but there is a second instance that
contains all of the applications that are query and update
applications.
ROR mª¿ªm

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/29/02 04:33PM >>>
How many sites are doing cold backups? At what frequency?

How many sites are doing hot  backups? At what frequency?

Does anybody know the existance of any "Best Practices"
paper on the web that discuss the topic of Oracle backups?
If so, what's the URL?

TIA!

-- 
Charlie Mengler  Maintenance Warehouse  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10641 Scripps Summit Ct.
858-831-2229 San Diego, CA 92131
Lead, follow, or at least have the courtesy to get out of my way!
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com 
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Re: Backups

[A. Bardeen]

Ryn,

I know nothing about the VxFS/UFS snapshot utlities,
but from a backup standpoint, other than using RMAN,
the only way a valid backup can be taken with the
database up and running is to put the tablespaces in
backup mode before the datafiles, or the filesystems
on which they reside, are copied.

If this is similar to a disk split, for example, you
can restore the split and open the database because
this is essentially the same case as starting up a db
after a shutdown abort and SMON will do instance
recovery.  This is NOT a valid backup, however, and
attempting to do media recovery and apply archived
logs will write warnings to the alert.log that you are
attempting to recover from a fuzzy backup and the db
will not open.

HTH,

--Anita

--- Ryn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello folks,
> 
> We are looking into the VxFS/UFS snapshot utlities,
> and I am curious how you can
> quiesce an Oracle instance? I would like all changes
> to the buffer cache to be
> flushed
> to the file system and checkpoints to occur. What
> would I need to run to do
> this? I
> assume this would give the file system a consistent
> view of the database. We are
> going
> to play with this in our test environment.
> 
> Thanks for any info,
> 
> - Ryn


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
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also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

RE: Backups on raw devices

[Reardon, Bruce (CALBBAY)]

Steve,

>From the 817 documentation on RMAN:
"
Storage of the RMAN Repository Exclusively in the Control File
Because most information in the recovery catalog is also available in the
target database's control file, RMAN supports an operational mode in which
it uses the target database control file instead of a recovery catalog. This
mode is especially appropriate for small databases where installation and
administration of another database for the sole purpose of maintaining the
recovery catalog is burdensome. 

Oracle does not support the following features in this operational mode: 

Stored scripts 

Restore and recovery when the control file is lost or damaged 

Types of Records in the Control File
When you do not use a recovery catalog, the control file is the exclusive
source of information about backups and copies as well as other relevant
information. The control file contains two types of records: circular reuse
records and non-circular reuse records. 

Circular Reuse Records
Circular reuse records contain non-critical information that is eligible to
be overwritten if the need arises. These records contain information that is
continually generated by the database. Some examples of information circular
reuse records include: 

Log history 

Archived redo logs 

Backups 

Offline ranges for datafiles 

Circular re-use records are arranged in a logical ring. When all available
record slots are full, Oracle either expands the control file to make room
for a new records or overwrites the oldest record. The
CONTROL_FILE_RECORD_KEEP_TIME initialization parameter specifies the minimum
age in days of a record before it can be reused. 

See Also: 
"Monitoring the Overwriting of Control File Records" to learn how to manage
Oracle's treatment of circular-reuse records.  
 
 


Non-Circular Reuse Records
Non-circular reuse records contain critical information that does not change
often and cannot be overwritten. Some examples of information in circular
reuse records include: 

Datafiles 

Online redo logs 

Redo threads 

Recovery Without a Catalog
To restore and recover your database without using a recovery catalog,
Oracle recommends that you: 

Use a minimum of two multiplexed or mirrored control files, each on separate
disks. 

Keep excellent records of which files were backed up, the date they were
backed up, and the names of the backup pieces that each file was written to
(see Chapter 4, "Generating Lists and Reports with Recovery Manager"). Keep
all Recovery Manager backup logs. 




WARNING: 
It is difficult to restore and recover if you lose your control files and do
not use a recovery catalog. The only way to restore and recover when you
have lost all control files and need to restore and recover datafiles is to
call Oracle Support Services. Support will need to know: 

The current schema of the database. 

Which files were backed up. 

When the files were backed up. 

The names of the backup pieces containing the files. 

  


 
 


See Also: 
"Understanding Catalog-Only Command Restrictions" for a complete list of
commands that are disabled unless you use a recovery catalog.  
"

Regards,
Bruce


-Original Message-
Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2001 2:02 
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


With Oracle 8.0 there was RMAN functionality that you could only get by
having a repository in a database. But with Oracle 8.1 it seems that you get
all the functionality you need with controlfiles. What functionality do you
lose by using RMAN with controlfiles?


Steve Orr


-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 2:11 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


You can just use the controlfile so you don't have to setup a database
repository. Here's a clip from page 2-8 of the User's Guide:

"When you use a control file as the RMAN repository, RMAN still functions
very effectively. If you choose not to use a recovery catalog, follow the
guidelines in "Managing the RMAN Repository Without a Recovery Catalog" on
page 3-45. Specifically, make sure you understand which commands require a
catalog, and develop a strategy for backing up the repository."

You can configure the amount of history kept in you controlfiles with the
following init.ora entry:
# Keep 14 days of history in the control file for the RMAN backups...
CONTROL_FILE_RECORD_KEEP_TIME = 14

Of course, make sure you backup the controlfiles. :-) 


Steve Orr



-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 9:17 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I've logged a TAR on this one with Oracle.  They have verified what I
suspected all along.  The SAs here don't understand how Oracle performs a
hot backup.  There is no difference between raw and cooked file systems as
far as Oracle is concerned when performing a hot backup.  Also, the skipping
of the header

RE: Backups on raw devices

[Orr, Steve]

With Oracle 8.0 there was RMAN functionality that you could only get by
having a repository in a database. But with Oracle 8.1 it seems that you get
all the functionality you need with controlfiles. What functionality do you
lose by using RMAN with controlfiles?


Steve Orr


-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 2:11 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


You can just use the controlfile so you don't have to setup a database
repository. Here's a clip from page 2-8 of the User's Guide:

"When you use a control file as the RMAN repository, RMAN still functions
very effectively. If you choose not to use a recovery catalog, follow the
guidelines in "Managing the RMAN Repository Without a Recovery Catalog" on
page 3-45. Specifically, make sure you understand which commands require a
catalog, and develop a strategy for backing up the repository."

You can configure the amount of history kept in you controlfiles with the
following init.ora entry:
# Keep 14 days of history in the control file for the RMAN backups...
CONTROL_FILE_RECORD_KEEP_TIME = 14

Of course, make sure you backup the controlfiles. :-) 


Steve Orr



-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 9:17 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I've logged a TAR on this one with Oracle.  They have verified what I
suspected all along.  The SAs here don't understand how Oracle performs a
hot backup.  There is no difference between raw and cooked file systems as
far as Oracle is concerned when performing a hot backup.  Also, the skipping
of the header is only applicable to certain variants of UNIX.

One other question here.  Does anyone have recommendations on the repository
database required for RMAN?  Do we need to keep a separate instance on
another production box?  Or the same production box?  Does everybody have
all of there repository information for all of their database in one
instance?  It seems like you would want a separate instance for each
repository and have them staggered across different machines so that the
odds of losing your database and it's repository at the same time would be
low.  Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the replies so far!

--Michael

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Michael,
 We use RMAN on RAW with EDM (EMC) backups, without any problem. When using
RMAN, it will take care of all blocks that are being changed while the
backup is
going on. Also as EDM interfaces with the Tape library, RMAN will write
directly
to the Tape . Have this set up on about 15 databases and all of them are
working
fine. But occasionally our backups fail on 8.1.6 databases due to lack of
resources on the Server (and some bugs!).

Rama

"Jenkins, Michael" wrote:

> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
a
> hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
the
> raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> 
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
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RE: Backups on raw devices

[Orr, Steve]

You can just use the controlfile so you don't have to setup a database
repository. Here's a clip from page 2-8 of the User's Guide:

"When you use a control file as the RMAN repository, RMAN still functions
very effectively. If you choose not to use a recovery catalog, follow the
guidelines in "Managing the RMAN Repository Without a Recovery Catalog" on
page 3-45. Specifically, make sure you understand which commands require a
catalog, and develop a strategy for backing up the repository."

You can configure the amount of history kept in you controlfiles with the
following init.ora entry:
# Keep 14 days of history in the control file for the RMAN backups...
CONTROL_FILE_RECORD_KEEP_TIME = 14

Of course, make sure you backup the controlfiles. :-) 


Steve Orr



-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 9:17 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I've logged a TAR on this one with Oracle.  They have verified what I
suspected all along.  The SAs here don't understand how Oracle performs a
hot backup.  There is no difference between raw and cooked file systems as
far as Oracle is concerned when performing a hot backup.  Also, the skipping
of the header is only applicable to certain variants of UNIX.

One other question here.  Does anyone have recommendations on the repository
database required for RMAN?  Do we need to keep a separate instance on
another production box?  Or the same production box?  Does everybody have
all of there repository information for all of their database in one
instance?  It seems like you would want a separate instance for each
repository and have them staggered across different machines so that the
odds of losing your database and it's repository at the same time would be
low.  Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the replies so far!

--Michael

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Michael,
 We use RMAN on RAW with EDM (EMC) backups, without any problem. When using
RMAN, it will take care of all blocks that are being changed while the
backup is
going on. Also as EDM interfaces with the Tape library, RMAN will write
directly
to the Tape . Have this set up on about 15 databases and all of them are
working
fine. But occasionally our backups fail on 8.1.6 databases due to lack of
resources on the Server (and some bugs!).

Rama

"Jenkins, Michael" wrote:

> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
a
> hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
the
> raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> 
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
-- 
Author: Jenkins, Michael
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RE: Backups on raw devices

[Cherie_Machler]

We have three separate databases (RCAT80, RCAT815, and RCAT817) which
reside on a separate, small, UNIX box that we only use for backups.   All
the 8.0.4
databases are backed up to the RCAT80 database, 8.1.5 databases to RCAT815,
and 8.1.7 databases to RCAT817.  Each of these databases has it's own
ORACLE_HOME.

Then we have a second small unix box which hosts RCAT802, RCAT8152, and
RDAT8172
which all have their own ORACLE_HOME.  We backup up RCAT80 to RCAT802,
RCAT815 to
RCAT8152, and RCAT817 to RCAT8172.

We use Sun Solaris 2.6 and we also use Veritas file manager and Netbackup
in conjunction
with RMAN.

Cherie Machler
Oracle DBA
Gelco Information Network


   

"Jenkins, Michael" 

  
extel.com>cc:  

Sent by:      Subject: RE: Backups on raw devices  

[EMAIL PROTECTED]   

   

   

06/18/01 10:16 AM  

Please respond to  

ORACLE-L   

   

   





I've logged a TAR on this one with Oracle.  They have verified what I
suspected all along.  The SAs here don't understand how Oracle performs a
hot backup.  There is no difference between raw and cooked file systems as
far as Oracle is concerned when performing a hot backup.  Also, the
skipping
of the header is only applicable to certain variants of UNIX.

One other question here.  Does anyone have recommendations on the
repository
database required for RMAN?  Do we need to keep a separate instance on
another production box?  Or the same production box?  Does everybody have
all of there repository information for all of their database in one
instance?  It seems like you would want a separate instance for each
repository and have them staggered across different machines so that the
odds of losing your database and it's repository at the same time would be
low.  Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the replies so far!

--Michael

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Michael,
 We use RMAN on RAW with EDM (EMC) backups, without any problem. When using
RMAN, it will take care of all blocks that are being changed while the
backup is
going on. Also as EDM interfaces with the Tape library, RMAN will write
directly
to the Tape . Have this set up on about 15 databases and all of them are
working
fine. But occasionally our backups fail on 8.1.6 databases due to lack of
resources on the Server (and some bugs!).

Rama

"Jenkins, Michael" wrote:

> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are
looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm
as
a
> hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
the
> raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (85

Re: Backups on raw devices

[Rama Malladi]

Michael,
 We have about 160 DBs connecting to a central RMAN Repository. All Dev/Test DBs
connect to one RMAN repository on a separate UNIX box and all the production DBs
connect to another Production Repository.

 Production RMAN repository is clustered using MC/Service guard for high
availability. We take exports of RMAN repositories, also RMAN (Test) repository
is backed-up to RMAN (Prod) repository and vice versa!

Rama
===

"Jenkins, Michael" wrote:

> I've logged a TAR on this one with Oracle.  They have verified what I
> suspected all along.  The SAs here don't understand how Oracle performs a
> hot backup.  There is no difference between raw and cooked file systems as
> far as Oracle is concerned when performing a hot backup.  Also, the skipping
> of the header is only applicable to certain variants of UNIX.
>
> One other question here.  Does anyone have recommendations on the repository
> database required for RMAN?  Do we need to keep a separate instance on
> another production box?  Or the same production box?  Does everybody have
> all of there repository information for all of their database in one
> instance?  It seems like you would want a separate instance for each
> repository and have them staggered across different machines so that the
> odds of losing your database and it's repository at the same time would be
> low.  Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks for all the replies so far!
>
> --Michael
>
> -Original Message-
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:55 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
> Michael,
>  We use RMAN on RAW with EDM (EMC) backups, without any problem. When using
> RMAN, it will take care of all blocks that are being changed while the
> backup is
> going on. Also as EDM interfaces with the Tape library, RMAN will write
> directly
> to the Tape . Have this set up on about 15 databases and all of them are
> working
> fine. But occasionally our backups fail on 8.1.6 databases due to lack of
> resources on the Server (and some bugs!).
>
> Rama
>
> "Jenkins, Michael" wrote:
>
> > We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> > for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> > use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> > read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
> a
> > hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
> the
> > raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> > file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> > popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> > tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> > utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> > anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> > database still has active users logged in?
> >
> > I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Michael L. Jenkins
> > Oracle Certified DBA
> > Nextel Communications
> > Norcross, GA
> >
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> > --
> > Author: Jenkins, Michael
> >   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> > San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> > 
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> 
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).


begin:vcard 
n:Malladi;Rama
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
org:Toyota Motor Sales (USA);Toyota Production Services
adr:;;
version:2.1
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Production Lead / DBA
fn:Rama Malladi (Oracle 8i Certified DBA)
end:vcard

RE: Backups on raw devices

[Christopher Spence]

You can put the repository anywhere you like.  Even on the production box.
But that will mean you will need to recover the RCAT, then the production
database.  If you have the resourcs, put the RCAT on another box to backup
production.

"Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if
both are frozen."

Christopher R. Spence
Oracle DBA
Fuelspot 



-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:17 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I've logged a TAR on this one with Oracle.  They have verified what I
suspected all along.  The SAs here don't understand how Oracle performs a
hot backup.  There is no difference between raw and cooked file systems as
far as Oracle is concerned when performing a hot backup.  Also, the skipping
of the header is only applicable to certain variants of UNIX.

One other question here.  Does anyone have recommendations on the repository
database required for RMAN?  Do we need to keep a separate instance on
another production box?  Or the same production box?  Does everybody have
all of there repository information for all of their database in one
instance?  It seems like you would want a separate instance for each
repository and have them staggered across different machines so that the
odds of losing your database and it's repository at the same time would be
low.  Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the replies so far!

--Michael

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Michael,
 We use RMAN on RAW with EDM (EMC) backups, without any problem. When using
RMAN, it will take care of all blocks that are being changed while the
backup is
going on. Also as EDM interfaces with the Tape library, RMAN will write
directly
to the Tape . Have this set up on about 15 databases and all of them are
working
fine. But occasionally our backups fail on 8.1.6 databases due to lack of
resources on the Server (and some bugs!).

Rama

"Jenkins, Michael" wrote:

> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
a
> hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
the
> raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> 
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
-- 
Author: Jenkins, Michael
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
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to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
-- 
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-- 
Author: Christopher Spence
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: Backups on raw devices

[Jenkins, Michael]

I've logged a TAR on this one with Oracle.  They have verified what I
suspected all along.  The SAs here don't understand how Oracle performs a
hot backup.  There is no difference between raw and cooked file systems as
far as Oracle is concerned when performing a hot backup.  Also, the skipping
of the header is only applicable to certain variants of UNIX.

One other question here.  Does anyone have recommendations on the repository
database required for RMAN?  Do we need to keep a separate instance on
another production box?  Or the same production box?  Does everybody have
all of there repository information for all of their database in one
instance?  It seems like you would want a separate instance for each
repository and have them staggered across different machines so that the
odds of losing your database and it's repository at the same time would be
low.  Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the replies so far!

--Michael

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:55 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


Michael,
 We use RMAN on RAW with EDM (EMC) backups, without any problem. When using
RMAN, it will take care of all blocks that are being changed while the
backup is
going on. Also as EDM interfaces with the Tape library, RMAN will write
directly
to the Tape . Have this set up on about 15 databases and all of them are
working
fine. But occasionally our backups fail on 8.1.6 databases due to lack of
resources on the Server (and some bugs!).

Rama

"Jenkins, Michael" wrote:

> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
a
> hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
the
> raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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Re: Backups on raw devices

[Vladimir Begun]

On Jun 15, 2001 at 04:05:49PM, Christopher Spence wrote:
> >In Oracle, you will get an "inconsistent" 
> >image of the data file, but that is true 
> >with any "manual" hot backup - cpio, tar, 
> >cp, etc.  It is not a problem - iff the 
> >tablespace(s) are in backup mode.  
> >(Wasn't there something about this on the OCP exam?)
> 
> This is exactly the reason why Oracle will write full blocks to the redo
> logs during tablespace backup mode.  Yes, the block is inconsistent, but if

It's done if a block appears in the buffer cache -- the full image
of a block is written. If the block remains in the buffer cache
for a long period of time the regular logging will be done. If it's
flushed and loaded again (and the tablespace still in hot backup
mode) -- the full image block will be logged again. It's not a
logical approach but it's done like that. RMAN can be used to
eliminate such a behavior for some heavy loaded systems.

-- 
Vladimir Begun   | The more things change, the more they'll
http://vbegun.net/   | never be the same again.
http://vbegun.net/wap/   | 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]| 
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-- 
Author: Vladimir Begun
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Re: Backups on raw devices

[Rama]

Michael,
 We use RMAN on RAW with EDM (EMC) backups, without any problem. When using
RMAN, it will take care of all blocks that are being changed while the backup is
going on. Also as EDM interfaces with the Tape library, RMAN will write directly
to the Tape . Have this set up on about 15 databases and all of them are working
fine. But occasionally our backups fail on 8.1.6 databases due to lack of
resources on the Server (and some bugs!).

Rama

"Jenkins, Michael" wrote:

> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as a
> hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that the
> raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> 
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).


begin:vcard 
n:Malladi;Rama
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
org:Toyota Motor Sales (USA);Toyota Production Services
adr:;;
version:2.1
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Production Lead / DBA
fn:Rama Malladi (Oracle 8i Certified DBA)
end:vcard

RE: Backups on raw devices

[Loughmiller, Greg]

we used raw devices for years... And never had a problem with hot backups
and restores...

I question the need to skip the fist block of the raw device..  We never did
that... Even in a parallel server mode as well

Greg

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 7:10 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I agree as long you put the TS in backup mode.
Also I'm not sure about skipping the header block!

Regards,

Waleed

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 6:42 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L




How would this be any different than reading a file system
when write activity is taking place?  It doesn't matter
if it's the OS or Oracle managing the disk, block can and
will be split during a hot backup.

I think your sysadmins need to reconsider.

And if I'm all wet on this, someone will be sure to tell me. :)

Jared



On Friday 15 June 2001 12:37, Jenkins, Michael wrote:
> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
> a hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
> the raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the
> data file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that
contrary
> to popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
-- 
Author: Jared Still
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: Backups on raw devices

[Christopher Spence]

>In Oracle, you will get an "inconsistent" 
>image of the data file, but that is true 
>with any "manual" hot backup - cpio, tar, 
>cp, etc.  It is not a problem - iff the 
>tablespace(s) are in backup mode.  
>(Wasn't there something about this on the OCP exam?)


This is exactly the reason why Oracle will write full blocks to the redo
logs during tablespace backup mode.  Yes, the block is inconsistent, but if
we have the entire block since the backup mode, we can restore the file,
then lay the blocks in and create a consistent datafile.  This is the same
no matter if your using Raw or Cooked.  And yes, there are a few things on
the OCP exams on this.


"Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if
both are frozen."

Christopher R. Spence
Oracle DBA
Fuelspot 



-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 7:30 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


I have extensive, but aging, experience with hot backups of raw devices on
active systems - on Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, and a handful of other Unix
variants - and some significant experience with OPS on Sun Cluster.

"dd" works, but certainly isn't "the easiest way" - or the fastest!  For one
thing it will take a *LOT* longer than any modern backup utility.  For
example, dd will read the entire device - used or not.  RMAN will know how
to do "null block compression" - which isn't what it sounds like, but can be
significantly faster.  If you are on Sun Solaris and already have Veritos
Netbackup for the system backups, use Netbackup as the media management
layer and RMAN as the backup utility.  This is how I've been doing all
Oracle backups on Sun for the past 3.5 years.  It isn't that hard to set up.
RMAN is fairly easy in fact, but Netbackup is generally a bit more complex.
Make sure you have your catalogs (RMAN and Netbackup) set up properly and
test everything very thoroughly!

The SAs are wrong.  What they are thinking of is a normal system backup -
what they typically do.  In Oracle, you will get an "inconsistent" image of
the data file, but that is true with any "manual" hot backup - cpio, tar,
cp, etc.  It is not a problem - iff the tablespace(s) are in backup mode.
(Wasn't there something about this on the OCP exam?)

I have not used "dd" for a few years, but what is this stuff about "skipping
the header"?  I never did anything like that and I used dd on raw devices
for years - on hundreds of systems - and never had a problem with either
backup or restore&recovery.  I think this is more bad information from the
SAs.
[e.g With Veritos volumes, dd if=/dev/vx/rdsk/oradg/
of=/dev/rmt0n bs=]
(NOTE: "bs=.." may be optional! And I don't remember offhand if it is
/dev/rmt0n or /dev/rmt/0n in Solaris)

I suspect that your SAs are going to be a problem...  I might have to
withdraw the Netbackup recommendation!  You and the SA(s) will need to be in
"perfect harmony" to get it working reliably.  My first experience with
Netbackup/RMAN|EBU was with a rather unsophisticated (and arrogant) SA.  He
fought it for months and never did get it working right anywhere... and kept
blaming it on Oracle and RMAN/EBU.  After he was replaced with a MUCH better
SA, we had it nailed down tight on over fifty database servers in under a
week.

Seriously, if you can afford OPS, you can afford decent backup software -
RMAN and Netbackup or something other than plain old "dd"!

Don Granaman
[OraSaurus]

PS:  If you do use Netbackup, be aware of how to modify bp.conf to do a
restore the another node should the one where you do the backups fail and
you have to restore from somewhere else.

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:37 PM


> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
a
> hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
the
> raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
>
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California   

Re: Backups on raw devices

[Don Granaman]

I have extensive, but aging, experience with hot backups of raw devices on
active systems - on Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, and a handful of other Unix
variants - and some significant experience with OPS on Sun Cluster.

"dd" works, but certainly isn't "the easiest way" - or the fastest!  For one
thing it will take a *LOT* longer than any modern backup utility.  For
example, dd will read the entire device - used or not.  RMAN will know how
to do "null block compression" - which isn't what it sounds like, but can be
significantly faster.  If you are on Sun Solaris and already have Veritos
Netbackup for the system backups, use Netbackup as the media management
layer and RMAN as the backup utility.  This is how I've been doing all
Oracle backups on Sun for the past 3.5 years.  It isn't that hard to set up.
RMAN is fairly easy in fact, but Netbackup is generally a bit more complex.
Make sure you have your catalogs (RMAN and Netbackup) set up properly and
test everything very thoroughly!

The SAs are wrong.  What they are thinking of is a normal system backup -
what they typically do.  In Oracle, you will get an "inconsistent" image of
the data file, but that is true with any "manual" hot backup - cpio, tar,
cp, etc.  It is not a problem - iff the tablespace(s) are in backup mode.
(Wasn't there something about this on the OCP exam?)

I have not used "dd" for a few years, but what is this stuff about "skipping
the header"?  I never did anything like that and I used dd on raw devices
for years - on hundreds of systems - and never had a problem with either
backup or restore&recovery.  I think this is more bad information from the
SAs.
[e.g With Veritos volumes, dd if=/dev/vx/rdsk/oradg/
of=/dev/rmt0n bs=]
(NOTE: "bs=.." may be optional! And I don't remember offhand if it is
/dev/rmt0n or /dev/rmt/0n in Solaris)

I suspect that your SAs are going to be a problem...  I might have to
withdraw the Netbackup recommendation!  You and the SA(s) will need to be in
"perfect harmony" to get it working reliably.  My first experience with
Netbackup/RMAN|EBU was with a rather unsophisticated (and arrogant) SA.  He
fought it for months and never did get it working right anywhere... and kept
blaming it on Oracle and RMAN/EBU.  After he was replaced with a MUCH better
SA, we had it nailed down tight on over fifty database servers in under a
week.

Seriously, if you can afford OPS, you can afford decent backup software -
RMAN and Netbackup or something other than plain old "dd"!

Don Granaman
[OraSaurus]

PS:  If you do use Netbackup, be aware of how to modify bp.conf to do a
restore the another node should the one where you do the backups fail and
you have to restore from somewhere else.

- Original Message -
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:37 PM


> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
a
> hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
the
> raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the data
> file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary to
> popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
>
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Jenkins, Michael
>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Fat City Network Services-- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California-- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> 
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
-- 
Author: Don Granaman
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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t

RE: Backups on raw devices

[Khedr, Waleed]

I agree as long you put the TS in backup mode.
Also I'm not sure about skipping the header block!

Regards,

Waleed

-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 6:42 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L




How would this be any different than reading a file system
when write activity is taking place?  It doesn't matter
if it's the OS or Oracle managing the disk, block can and
will be split during a hot backup.

I think your sysadmins need to reconsider.

And if I'm all wet on this, someone will be sure to tell me. :)

Jared



On Friday 15 June 2001 12:37, Jenkins, Michael wrote:
> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
> a hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
> the raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the
> data file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that
contrary
> to popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
-- 
Author: Jared Still
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
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Re: Backups on raw devices

[Jared Still]

How would this be any different than reading a file system
when write activity is taking place?  It doesn't matter
if it's the OS or Oracle managing the disk, block can and
will be split during a hot backup.

I think your sysadmins need to reconsider.

And if I'm all wet on this, someone will be sure to tell me. :)

Jared



On Friday 15 June 2001 12:37, Jenkins, Michael wrote:
> We have parallel server running on on a Sun Cluster 2.2 and we are looking
> for the easiest way to perform hot backups.  Now, I know that you have to
> use the "dd" command and skip the header at the beginning.  Everything I
> read on metalink indicates that you can use basically the same paradigm as
> a hot backup on cooked file systems.  But, the sysadmins here tell me that
> the raw device can't be backed up if there is any write activity on the
> data file that is currently being backed up.  Now we all know that contrary
> to popular belief there is write activity on a data file even when the
> tablespace is in backup mode.  Is "rman" or some other block-level backup
> utility the only way to get a reliable hot backup on raw devices?  Does
> anybody have any experience with hot backups that are made while the
> database still has active users logged in?
>
> I look forward to everyone's thought on this.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Michael L. Jenkins
> Oracle Certified DBA
> Nextel Communications
> Norcross, GA
-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
-- 
Author: Jared Still
  INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).