Re: idea=$395.00USD
One fancy detail: I tried IDEA at home on a 200 Mhz Pentium with 64 MB RAM on Win 95 - it works fine with smaller projects, even takes less time than JBuilder6 in the office. post scriptum: You can't afford $400?!? where the hell are all you cheap bastards working that you can't scrape up $400? I think you all need to focus a little harder on working and spending less time looking at porn; I really do not think that this is an appropriate discussion style for a mailing list of developers of whom - I suppose - the majority has an IQ of 90 points or even more. And: there are countries where a developer's salary is about 2-300 USD and students have to live on USD 50 monthly. -- Maximilian Eberl [ developer ] - netzdenker.de mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.netzdenker.de Ludwigstrasse 2 D-67346 Speyer / Germany tel: +49-6232-2602-02 fax: +49-6232-2602-05
Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, The Boss wrote: I usually build tools to build tools so I mostly can't afford to accept other people's design philosophies. Thus the tools of choice for me are the simplest because they have the least conceptual overhead. Put it like this, I am NOT interested in making the most out of something like Idea, I AM interested in doing three or four or tens times BETTER than Idea in creating J2EE apps. Yes, I can use a tool like 'vi' to build the better stuff, but I can't use Idea to do better than Idea if you see what I mean. Like a dinosaur Idea has made its evolutionary commitment, as have the other dinosaurs of similar ilke. It sounds a lot better than JBuilder though for what it does ... it simply doesn't sound better than my tools ... ;) Spoken (or typed) like a man who's used JBuilder and assumed IDEA's just like it. IDEA doesn't write code for you unless you tell it to. And when you tell it to, it writes the code you told it to. It doesn't generate GUIs that suck. In fact, it doesn't generate GUIs at all. It's an editor. A java editor. Not a crappy IDE like Netbeans or JBuilder. Not an editor with Java features, like VSE or Emacs (both of which I've more than a passing familiarity with.) It's an editor whose designers said, What do Java people need to do? and the editor enables that. It doesn't require the developer to do things. It enables the developer, and gets out of the way. Sorry for the caustic tone, but it sounds like you're rendering judgement without a clue, based on price and misconceptions. regards goffredo Um, dude... you're using a commercial product. Why? Typically, because the value you get out of licensing it gives you a good return on your investment. I *could* use Tomcat instead of Orion... but Tomcat sucks. It's free, but it sucks. If it didn't suck, the return on the investment of time would be worthwhile. I use Orion. (Do the math.) Editors work the same way. I *could* use vi, or emacs (and I used to use vi and emacs), but I found that IDEA boosted my productivity (the return) so much that I was able to justify the cost (the investment) easily and well. And that's after wasting my time with JBuilder, Forte, Kawa, JEdit, Netbeans (which is better than Forte, despite Forte being based on Netbeans, joe, vi, emacs, and Eclipse (and I'm sure I'm leaving some out in this list). If you're going to wave the It's not free flag, run back to Tomcat and Apache where you belong. JBuilder was a waste of time after using it for years, and waking up to the fact that I only used it to package classes anyway. I bet people who are recommending idea are using other people's money to buy idea licenses? What about Simplicity? regards ... From: Eric Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Java IDE? Date: 22/03/2002 14:33:50 To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Idea for coding, Jbuilder for GUI layout. -Original Message- From: Clay Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:55 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Java IDE? Just a question, any suggestions as to what a good IDE is? I've tried JBuilder, IDEA (I like IDEA) and a few others... any recommendations? Thanks -Clay This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au
Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
Right, he could use Tomcat and probably, like many people, he started using tomcat to get experience. There is nothing wrong with Tomcat except that it is slower than the other containers. If that is not a problem then it's fine. Sometimes the obvious product choice is determined by the level of support so that a newbie can make headway, not by the sophistication of the product. Lets face it, it is easier to make headway on Tomcat than it is on Orion. Free stuff is not the be all and end all, but I think that all products, unless proven to be absolutely beyond redemption, have a place in the developer's arsenal. regards phil - Original Message - From: Joseph Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 4:36 AM Subject: Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At about $800.00 AUD (roughly=$395.00 USD) I'd forget all about idea ... what about some ide's with sensible prices? I realised *looks at from header, notes orion-interest* Um, dude... you're using a commercial product. Why? Typically, because the value you get out of licensing it gives you a good return on your investment. I *could* use Tomcat instead of Orion... but Tomcat sucks. It's free, but it sucks. If it didn't suck, the return on the investment of time would be worthwhile. I use Orion. (Do the math.) Editors work the same way. I *could* use vi, or emacs (and I used to use vi and emacs), but I found that IDEA boosted my productivity (the return) so much that I was able to justify the cost (the investment) easily and well. And that's after wasting my time with JBuilder, Forte, Kawa, JEdit, Netbeans (which is better than Forte, despite Forte being based on Netbeans, joe, vi, emacs, and Eclipse (and I'm sure I'm leaving some out in this list). If you're going to wave the It's not free flag, run back to Tomcat and Apache where you belong. JBuilder was a waste of time after using it for years, and waking up to the fact that I only used it to package classes anyway. I bet people who are recommending idea are using other people's money to buy idea licenses? What about Simplicity? regards ... From: Eric Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Java IDE? Date: 22/03/2002 14:33:50 To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Idea for coding, Jbuilder for GUI layout. -Original Message- From: Clay Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:55 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Java IDE? Just a question, any suggestions as to what a good IDE is? I've tried JBuilder, IDEA (I like IDEA) and a few others... any recommendations? Thanks -Clay This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au
RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
after enjoying watching this debate for the last while I decided to check out what all the fuss was about so I downloaded the IDEA software. Now I will be honest, JDeveloper has been my tool of choice for a long time I have tried others (ie. JBuilder and I know JDeveloper is licensed from it but I really dont like it, also used the likes of visual cafe I hated that one and so on and so on) back to the plot, I haven't been playing with it for too long but I dont see what all the shouting is about so maybe someone could give me their view who has used both IDEA and JDeveloper 9i extensively cause I am not convinced at all that it is better that JDev9i -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Joseph Ottinger Sent: 24 March 2002 12:50 To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, The Boss wrote: I usually build tools to build tools so I mostly can't afford to accept other people's design philosophies. Thus the tools of choice for me are the simplest because they have the least conceptual overhead. Put it like this, I am NOT interested in making the most out of something like Idea, I AM interested in doing three or four or tens times BETTER than Idea in creating J2EE apps. Yes, I can use a tool like 'vi' to build the better stuff, but I can't use Idea to do better than Idea if you see what I mean. Like a dinosaur Idea has made its evolutionary commitment, as have the other dinosaurs of similar ilke. It sounds a lot better than JBuilder though for what it does ... it simply doesn't sound better than my tools ... ;) Spoken (or typed) like a man who's used JBuilder and assumed IDEA's just like it. IDEA doesn't write code for you unless you tell it to. And when you tell it to, it writes the code you told it to. It doesn't generate GUIs that suck. In fact, it doesn't generate GUIs at all. It's an editor. A java editor. Not a crappy IDE like Netbeans or JBuilder. Not an editor with Java features, like VSE or Emacs (both of which I've more than a passing familiarity with.) It's an editor whose designers said, What do Java people need to do? and the editor enables that. It doesn't require the developer to do things. It enables the developer, and gets out of the way. Sorry for the caustic tone, but it sounds like you're rendering judgement without a clue, based on price and misconceptions. regards goffredo Um, dude... you're using a commercial product. Why? Typically, because the value you get out of licensing it gives you a good return on your investment. I *could* use Tomcat instead of Orion... but Tomcat sucks. It's free, but it sucks. If it didn't suck, the return on the investment of time would be worthwhile. I use Orion. (Do the math.) Editors work the same way. I *could* use vi, or emacs (and I used to use vi and emacs), but I found that IDEA boosted my productivity (the return) so much that I was able to justify the cost (the investment) easily and well. And that's after wasting my time with JBuilder, Forte, Kawa, JEdit, Netbeans (which is better than Forte, despite Forte being based on Netbeans, joe, vi, emacs, and Eclipse (and I'm sure I'm leaving some out in this list). If you're going to wave the It's not free flag, run back to Tomcat and Apache where you belong. JBuilder was a waste of time after using it for years, and waking up to the fact that I only used it to package classes anyway. I bet people who are recommending idea are using other people's money to buy idea licenses? What about Simplicity? regards ... From: Eric Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Java IDE? Date: 22/03/2002 14:33:50 To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Idea for coding, Jbuilder for GUI layout. -Original Message- From: Clay Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:55 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Java IDE? Just a question, any suggestions as to what a good IDE is? I've tried JBuilder, IDEA (I like IDEA) and a few others... any recommendations? Thanks -Clay This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au
Re: idea=$395.00USD
--- Maximilian Eberl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One fancy detail: I tried IDEA at home on a 200 Mhz Pentium with 64 MB RAM on Win 95 - it works fine with smaller projects, even takes less time than JBuilder6 in the office. post scriptum: You can't afford $400?!? where the hell are all you cheap bastards working that you can't scrape up $400? I think you all need to focus a little harder on working and spending less time looking at porn; I really do not think that this is an appropriate discussion style for a mailing list of developers of whom - I suppose - the majority has an IQ of 90 points or even more. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=satire sat·ire Pronunciation Key (str) n. A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit. The branch of literature constituting such works. See Synonyms at caricature. Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity. This whole thread had already taken a turn into evangelical lunicy, and I was mearly adding a satirical response to the thread. And: there are countries where a developer's salary is about 2-300 USD and students have to live on USD 50 monthly. -- Maximilian Eberl [ developer ] - netzdenker.de mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.netzdenker.de Ludwigstrasse 2 D-67346 Speyer / Germany tel: +49-6232-2602-02 fax: +49-6232-2602-05 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/
RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
At 12:18 AM 3/24/2002, you wrote: You can't afford $400?!? where the hell are all you cheap bastards working that you can't scrape up $400? I think you all need to focus a little harder on working and spending less time looking at porn; then maybe you could get a job that would afford you a salary that gives you disposable income I could come up with $400 in two months just by bringing lunch to work from home... IDEA has rediculously high ROI. And it's normally high productivity is skyrocketed if you are refactoring because of all the advanced refactoring features it has. IDEA was written by people who apparently actually use the editor they're selling. JBuilder is probably used for JBuilder, too, but look at how long it takes Borland to crank out new useless features; Intellij does it every week. to sum it up: get a job that pays well you slackers! (or at least cut down on the ammount you spend on porn every month) Noah I have to agree Noah, I won't work for anyone that does not have the budget for tools, that means they don't have the budget to afford me. Then again I have been a Senior Systems Architect for 8 years now, and have worked on large enterprise scale projects for 10 years now. Personally having at least ONE license for Together from TogetherSoft is a requirement for me to take a job. I have not used IDEA because I have lots of custom modules I have created for Together and just have not seen the need, I may download it and try it out, even though I don't need new useless features every week once a year like Borland does is fine for me ;-) Personally I use LOTS of tools for different tasks. 1. SlickEdit can not be beat for pounding out quicky command line tools in any language, its support for code insight is un-matched in any IDE esp for Java. It is awesome for cranking out straight C/C++ that use a command line interface also. For projects with hundreds of classes in dozens of packages it does get a little cumbersome. That is when I use Together. IDEA looks like the closest competitor that SlickEdit has right now so I would probably say if you don't like SlickEdit then consider IDEA. 2. Together is a MUST for anything that is close to enterprise wide development and has multiple developers, code trees, or any kind of complexity, I only work on extemely large scale projects, that usually have legacy code that has to be dug thru to port to a J2EE container. The key to together is the SEEMLESS round trip engineering and code generation from diagram to code and back again, and seemless integrations with other external editors ( I tend to use SlickEdit as the editor for Together ). If you don't GET the value of a tool like Together you are not doing serious development. There is a FREE community edition for Together with no time limits and most of the useless features removed. If you try it and don't understand what it brings to the development cycle of real world enterprise development efforts you got a ways to go in your career. 3. JBuilder is great for cowboy programming for small shops where you and only you have to work on a code base ( ala Visual Basic ), the new 6 version has one of the prettiest UML diagram generators I have ever seen, but the it does have some things I don't like. I like to use it for GUI based applications and things that need a RAD style developement cycle ( ala VB again ). JBuilder support ANY JDK version unlike the uniformed want to say, all these tools support any JDK, I am using 1.4 in EVERY tool mentioned in this letter with NO PROBLEMS. In my experience people that complain about the price of tools or say that vi is all they need either aren't working on real world enterprise projects or are not real world programmers, ANYTHING that can increase my productivity is worth buying, simply because my TIME is worth MORE than anything else, it is priceless. If you worked on some of the projects I have in the last 6 years you would understand how silly all this vi and emacs and the jdk is all you need rehtoric is. Every minute I SAVE by using a tool gives me a minute to spend with my wife, family, riding my motorcycles, recording music, working on my movie, sleeping or anything else, you get the idea. To paraphrase a shampoo commerical yeah Together is expensive, but I am worth it! I mean if you suck at playing guitar you a crappy guitar will do, because no matter how much the guitar costs, you will still suck. If you don't have any good program design skills then the most expensive IDE will not make your program designs any better. But they will make someone that knows what they are doing work MUCH faster and be more effective. So anyone that chants the FREE mantra keep using Tomcat and Vi and all the other free crap because in the end it will cost you HUNDREDS TIMES more than buying a proper tool and saving money over the long haul. Then again if you are lowballing jobs, and working on crappy little
RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
I believe it comes down to the individual requirements of the developer. You can discuss it till your blue in the face, but if it doesn't fill comfortable, then, like most users, you won't use it. Go with what feels right for you and don't be to swayed with what other people think. I've been lucky that most of the places I've worked at have allowed me to use the editor of my choice and personally I prefer netbeans, but that's more to do with the fact that I was required to use at Uni and at the time their was only a hand full of editors and all of them (except Netbeans) seemed to use a propriety VM - but that's ancient history. Most of the experience is in Swing and I hand code 99% of all my UI, I've yet to meet a UI designer that can cut it. Essentially, try a few, find the one you like and hope it's not to expensive, but at the end of the day, if you can't live without it, you're going to have to pay for it... Good hunting! Shane
Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
Subject: Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? From: Vic Cekvenich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ==I tried CodeGuide, and like it, based on a post in this thread here. I used to use NetBeans. Thanks, Vic Noah Nordrum wrote: You can't afford $400?!? where the hell are all you cheap bastards working that you can't scrape up $400? I think you all need to focus a little harder on working and spending less time looking at porn; then maybe you could get a job that would afford you a salary that gives you disposable income I could come up with $400 in two months just by bringing lunch to work from home... IDEA has rediculously high ROI. And it's normally high productivity is skyrocketed if you are refactoring because of all the advanced refactoring features it has. IDEA was written by people who apparently actually use the editor they're selling. JBuilder is probably used for JBuilder, too, but look at how long it takes Borland to crank out new useless features; Intellij does it every week. to sum it up: get a job that pays well you slackers! (or at least cut down on the ammount you spend on porn every month) Noah --- Clay Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally have been using idea for a couple weeks - It's a great app. The price is a little over the top - $400? Sorry, but I don't have the extra cash to pony up for it - as for work, JBuilder is the standard, so that's not an option. I've used a lot of them - Jbuilder, Forte, NetBeans, but I like idea the most by far. It's *only* problem is that it's price prohibitive. -Clay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Fredrik Lindgren Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:14 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? Did you actually try it out or did you just check the prices? If you spend more than one hour a day writing java, I would say that IDEA is worth that money, even if it has to come from my own pockets. Naturally I would always try to get someone else to pay for it, such as my employer, but that goes for any tool I use at work. Recently I have done some code review on code coming from someone that evidently does not use IDEA, at least not any of the recent early access releases. I would even consider spending money for them to use IDEA for the code I receive to improve. I'd recommend anyone to register for the IDEA early access program, use IDEA with the EAP license until the real release, and then decide if you want to spend the money or not. I think most people would gladly pay the license cost to avoid having to go back to the old tools. It is also important to note that the license includes 8 months of future updates to IDEA (one or two major new releases looking back at the release history to date) By the way, I'm not related to the IDEA team in any way. /Fredrik Lindgren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi, At about $800.00 AUD (roughly=$395.00 USD) I'd forget all about idea ... what about some ide's with sensible prices? I realised JBuilder was a waste of time after using it for years, and waking up to the fact that I only used it to package classes anyway. I bet people who are recommending idea are using other people's money to buy idea licenses? What about Simplicity? regards ... From: Eric Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Java IDE? Date: 22/03/2002 14:33:50 To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Idea for coding, Jbuilder for GUI layout. -Original Message- From: Clay Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:55 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Java IDE? Just a question, any suggestions as to what a good IDE is? I've tried JBuilder, IDEA (I like IDEA) and a few others... any recommendations? Thanks -Clay This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/
Re: idea=$395.00USD
On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Maximilian Eberl wrote: You can't afford $400?!? where the hell are all you cheap bastards working that you can't scrape up $400? I think you all need to focus a little harder on working and spending less time looking at porn; I really do not think that this is an appropriate discussion style for a mailing list of developers of whom - I suppose - the majority has an IQ of 90 points or even more. Pardon my elitism, but developers with an IQ of 90 aren't going to be very good developers, and such people *really* want to invest their money in the best tools possible, in order to eke out every last drop of performance they can muster. After all, that's below average. On the other hand, maybe develoeprs with IQ of 90 are part of why our industry has such a crappy success rate. And: there are countries where a developer's salary is about 2-300 USD and students have to live on USD 50 monthly. Note that Intellij has student pricing... -- Maximilian Eberl [ developer ] - netzdenker.de mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.netzdenker.de Ludwigstrasse 2 D-67346 Speyer / Germany tel: +49-6232-2602-02 fax: +49-6232-2602-05
Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
IDEA has rediculously high ROI. And it's normally high productivity is skyrocketed if you are refactoring because of all the advanced refactoring features it has. IDEA was written by people who apparently actually use the editor they're selling. JBuilder is probably used for JBuilder, too, but look at how long it takes Borland to crank out new useless features; Intellij does it every week. I've used JBuilder for years, and have recommended it often. However, IDEA is simply way more productive, and appropriate to the way I work. Refactoring is the major advantage IDEA has over anything else I've tried (which includes codeguide). I am now more evolutionary in my programming approach, iterating toward the proper packaging and naming of things later in the project when the issues of feasibility and functionality have been settled. Often the cost/tediousness of repackaging classes (for example) in a normal IDE, is such that you just avoid it, if at all possible. I'm an independent contract developer, and I normally pick up free or inexpensive software tools (Net beans, jedit, ant, Metamill, etc). For me to commit US$400.00 to an IDE is sincere testimony to the productivity of IDEA. It has saved me probably a hundred hours development time in the last 6 months, and my products are better structured than they would otherwise be. However, I wish intellij would drop the price. More developers (including clients - why dont you use our jDeveloper?) should know the joy of immediate refactoring. Oh well, its intellij's business model. I suppose those excluded by the current pricing will just have to wait a few months for the open source and competitors (Borland ?) to come up to speed. Bill Winspur.
OK, here's Real World: was: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
Hi Jarrod, I would like to share some IBM insights with you relevant to some of your comments ... So anyone that chants the FREE mantra keep using Tomcat and Vi and all the other free crap because in the end it will cost you HUNDREDS TIMES more than buying a proper tool and saving money over the long haul. Then again if you are lowballing jobs, and working on crappy little projects all this is moot, why are you using Orion then, why not use JBoss or any of the other FREE EJB containers. I mean you COULD move a mountian with a plastic spoon, hell they are FREE at every fast food joint, but would'nt a sane and reasonable person spend the money on real earth moving equipment and get the job done quickly so they could move on to the next paying job moving the next mountain. Some time ago I was involved in IBM's San Fransisco project, about which you may know. This enterrpise level tool was very large and free for development I understand. Various tool makers came up with ways of enhancing the development process including the integration of the Rational suite of products. OK. That was the story from the West. It turned out that the most productive developers of San Fransisco applications were NOT the people who used fancy, expensive Yankee IDE's or tools, but the teams of hundreds of Indian programmers around Mumbai. The Indian software houses could not afford to pay guys like you, and provide guys like you with tools to make you productive, and save you time, so you could be with your family. No. They could afford to hire hundreds of developers and provide them with cheap development tools, like 'vi' ;), and let them loose on a task. So from this International competitive perspective your comments are way off the mark, the kind of productivity you speak about, (great design guys, large scale projects, etc) are irrelevant in the global domain. It doesn't matter in the end how productive you are, or what tools you use, you will NEVER be able to compete with the developer farms of countries like India, and just wait till China comes on line! I guess the same thing that happened to the Western clothing industry WILL happen to the Western software development business - it will be moved off-shore into countries that have large volumes of super-cheap educated labour, using free development tools. Unfortunately your comments sound like those of an ageing Western prima donna whose tunes are increasingly less popular. Sure tools like Idea were built for prima donna Western software developers ... but with developer farms coming on line ... prima donnas and the tools that support them are becoming less and less of a good business proposition. Perhaps you could start a crappy little project that could make you a lot of money, so you could retire early? ;) Regards goffredo
RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
Go Shane! This is one of the few sensible posts on IDE religion I've ever read! :-) Theres nothing like a little common sense to distinguish the smart developer from the average developer... :-) Anyway, my .2c (apart from what shane said) - I'd recommend any of these tools depending on the task at hand... - IDEA (best all round, brilliant for XP, reasonable price, no GUI or wizard hand-holding) - Together (if you have _lots_ of $ and you _must_ use UML) - JBlunder Enterprise (if you have _lots_ of $ and you really can't deal with J2EE without a Wizard to hold your hand) - CodeGuide (if you don't like NetBeans and you can't afford IDEA) - Netbeans (if you like the price and can handle the clunky interface) - Emacs / vi (if you are a Linux freak and bone-headed :-) - Textpad (if you are a Win32 user and if all else fails :-) Geoff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Shane Whitehead Sent: Monday, 25 March 2002 8:21 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? I believe it comes down to the individual requirements of the developer. You can discuss it till your blue in the face, but if it doesn't fill comfortable, then, like most users, you won't use it. Go with what feels right for you and don't be to swayed with what other people think. I've been lucky that most of the places I've worked at have allowed me to use the editor of my choice and personally I prefer netbeans, but that's more to do with the fact that I was required to use at Uni and at the time their was only a hand full of editors and all of them (except Netbeans) seemed to use a propriety VM - but that's ancient history. Most of the experience is in Swing and I hand code 99% of all my UI, I've yet to meet a UI designer that can cut it. Essentially, try a few, find the one you like and hope it's not to expensive, but at the end of the day, if you can't live without it, you're going to have to pay for it... Good hunting! Shane
RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
IDEA with widows installer is released The only major disadvantage with idea is u have to click a garbage collector button atleast once in 6 hours to make it run fast I tried with codeguide4.0 its fast and almost has all the features of IDEA -Original Message- From: The Boss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 5:57 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? Hi Joe, I usually build tools to build tools so I mostly can't afford to accept other people's design philosophies. Thus the tools of choice for me are the simplest because they have the least conceptual overhead. Put it like this, I am NOT interested in making the most out of something like Idea, I AM interested in doing three or four or tens times BETTER than Idea in creating J2EE apps. Yes, I can use a tool like 'vi' to build the better stuff, but I can't use Idea to do better than Idea if you see what I mean. Like a dinosaur Idea has made its evolutionary commitment, as have the other dinosaurs of similar ilke. It sounds a lot better than JBuilder though for what it does ... it simply doesn't sound better than my tools ... ;) regards goffredo Um, dude... you're using a commercial product. Why? Typically, because the value you get out of licensing it gives you a good return on your investment. I *could* use Tomcat instead of Orion... but Tomcat sucks. It's free, but it sucks. If it didn't suck, the return on the investment of time would be worthwhile. I use Orion. (Do the math.) Editors work the same way. I *could* use vi, or emacs (and I used to use vi and emacs), but I found that IDEA boosted my productivity (the return) so much that I was able to justify the cost (the investment) easily and well. And that's after wasting my time with JBuilder, Forte, Kawa, JEdit, Netbeans (which is better than Forte, despite Forte being based on Netbeans, joe, vi, emacs, and Eclipse (and I'm sure I'm leaving some out in this list). If you're going to wave the It's not free flag, run back to Tomcat and Apache where you belong. JBuilder was a waste of time after using it for years, and waking up to the fact that I only used it to package classes anyway. I bet people who are recommending idea are using other people's money to buy idea licenses? What about Simplicity? regards ... From: Eric Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Java IDE? Date: 22/03/2002 14:33:50 To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Idea for coding, Jbuilder for GUI layout. -Original Message- From: Clay Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:55 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Java IDE? Just a question, any suggestions as to what a good IDE is? I've tried JBuilder, IDEA (I like IDEA) and a few others... any recommendations? Thanks -Clay This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au
Re: idea=$395.00USD
At 07:28 PM 3/24/2002, you wrote: On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Maximilian Eberl wrote: You can't afford $400?!? where the hell are all you cheap bastards working that you can't scrape up $400? I think you all need to focus a little harder on working and spending less time looking at porn; I really do not think that this is an appropriate discussion style for a mailing list of developers of whom - I suppose - the majority has an IQ of 90 points or even more. Pardon my elitism, but developers with an IQ of 90 aren't going to be very good developers, and such people *really* want to invest their money in the best tools possible, in order to eke out every last drop of performance they can muster. After all, that's below average. On the other hand, maybe develoeprs with IQ of 90 are part of why our industry has such a crappy success rate. now that is the truth!
RE: OK, here's Real World: was: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
And don't forget we'll all be using Drag and Drop Visual tools to do coding soon, so we won't even need tools like IDEA. I guess this will make Computer Science degrees irrelevant as well? LOL Geoff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of The Boss Sent: Monday, 25 March 2002 10:27 PM To: Orion-Interest Cc: Jarrod Roberson Subject: OK, here's Real World: was: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? Hi Jarrod, I would like to share some IBM insights with you relevant to some of your comments ... So anyone that chants the FREE mantra keep using Tomcat and Vi and all the other free crap because in the end it will cost you HUNDREDS TIMES more than buying a proper tool and saving money over the long haul. Then again if you are lowballing jobs, and working on crappy little projects all this is moot, why are you using Orion then, why not use JBoss or any of the other FREE EJB containers. I mean you COULD move a mountian with a plastic spoon, hell they are FREE at every fast food joint, but would'nt a sane and reasonable person spend the money on real earth moving equipment and get the job done quickly so they could move on to the next paying job moving the next mountain. Some time ago I was involved in IBM's San Fransisco project, about which you may know. This enterrpise level tool was very large and free for development I understand. Various tool makers came up with ways of enhancing the development process including the integration of the Rational suite of products. OK. That was the story from the West. It turned out that the most productive developers of San Fransisco applications were NOT the people who used fancy, expensive Yankee IDE's or tools, but the teams of hundreds of Indian programmers around Mumbai. The Indian software houses could not afford to pay guys like you, and provide guys like you with tools to make you productive, and save you time, so you could be with your family. No. They could afford to hire hundreds of developers and provide them with cheap development tools, like 'vi' ;), and let them loose on a task. So from this International competitive perspective your comments are way off the mark, the kind of productivity you speak about, (great design guys, large scale projects, etc) are irrelevant in the global domain. It doesn't matter in the end how productive you are, or what tools you use, you will NEVER be able to compete with the developer farms of countries like India, and just wait till China comes on line! I guess the same thing that happened to the Western clothing industry WILL happen to the Western software development business - it will be moved off-shore into countries that have large volumes of super-cheap educated labour, using free development tools. Unfortunately your comments sound like those of an ageing Western prima donna whose tunes are increasingly less popular. Sure tools like Idea were built for prima donna Western software developers ... but with developer farms coming on line ... prima donnas and the tools that support them are becoming less and less of a good business proposition. Perhaps you could start a crappy little project that could make you a lot of money, so you could retire early? ;) Regards goffredo
RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE?
What about JCreator? Have you tried? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Geoff Soutter Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 6:35 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? Go Shane! This is one of the few sensible posts on IDE religion I've ever read! :-) Theres nothing like a little common sense to distinguish the smart developer from the average developer... :-) Anyway, my .2c (apart from what shane said) - I'd recommend any of these tools depending on the task at hand... - IDEA (best all round, brilliant for XP, reasonable price, no GUI or wizard hand-holding) - Together (if you have _lots_ of $ and you _must_ use UML) - JBlunder Enterprise (if you have _lots_ of $ and you really can't deal with J2EE without a Wizard to hold your hand) - CodeGuide (if you don't like NetBeans and you can't afford IDEA) - Netbeans (if you like the price and can handle the clunky interface) - Emacs / vi (if you are a Linux freak and bone-headed :-) - Textpad (if you are a Win32 user and if all else fails :-) Geoff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Shane Whitehead Sent: Monday, 25 March 2002 8:21 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: idea=$395.00USD was: RE: Java IDE? I believe it comes down to the individual requirements of the developer. You can discuss it till your blue in the face, but if it doesn't fill comfortable, then, like most users, you won't use it. Go with what feels right for you and don't be to swayed with what other people think. I've been lucky that most of the places I've worked at have allowed me to use the editor of my choice and personally I prefer netbeans, but that's more to do with the fact that I was required to use at Uni and at the time their was only a hand full of editors and all of them (except Netbeans) seemed to use a propriety VM - but that's ancient history. Most of the experience is in Swing and I hand code 99% of all my UI, I've yet to meet a UI designer that can cut it. Essentially, try a few, find the one you like and hope it's not to expensive, but at the end of the day, if you can't live without it, you're going to have to pay for it... Good hunting! Shane
