Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Paul Levy via OSList]

Not sure i agree with you, Harrison.

Holding Space involves being gently present, respectfully absent and
conveniently and softly unnoticed.

Warm wishes

Paul Levy
Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019, 21:47 Harrison Owen via OSList, <
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> If I didn’t say it, I could have. Holding Space involves being “totally
> present and absolutely invisible” – to quote myself from “the book.”
> Meditation can get you there, or at least it always has for me. Is this
> right and true? Who knows, but it seems to work.
>
>
>
> ho
>
>
>
> *From:* OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Alan Halford via OSList
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 17, 2019 5:09 AM
> *To:* World wide Open Space Technology email list
> *Cc:* Alan Halford
> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this
> conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.
>
>
>
> I have a vague and distant memory of seeing/hearing HO saying or being
> quoted “ The only training you need for OST is  to meditate”
>
> Not sure whether I imagined  it, but it was a decisive reason for me to
> delve into the world of OST
>
> AND it’s still
>
> “Issue the invitation, sit in a circle, create an agenda and get to work”
>
> WHOO HOO
>
> Alan
>
> *Alan Halford & Associates*
>
>
> *Open Space Technology AficionadosMediation and Conflict Transformation*
>
>
> *Facilitators*
> *www.alanhalford.com.au <http://www.alanhalford.com.au>*
>
>
>
> *www.conflictcompany.com.au <http://www.conflictcompany.com.au> 0421 475
> 252skype: alanhalford*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:59 pm, R Chaffe via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> So does teaching!
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
> On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:47 pm, paul levy via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> I'd never certify OST. Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to
> discover.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Paul Levy
>
>
>
> Paul Levy
> Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker
>
>
>
> O
>
> ___
> OSList mailing list
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Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Harrison Owen via OSList]

If I didn’t say it, I could have. Holding Space involves being “totally present 
and absolutely invisible” – to quote myself from “the book.” Meditation can get 
you there, or at least it always has for me. Is this right and true? Who knows, 
but it seems to work.

 

ho

 

From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of Alan 
Halford via OSList
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 5:09 AM
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
Cc: Alan Halford
Subject: Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this 
conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

 

I have a vague and distant memory of seeing/hearing HO saying or being quoted “ 
The only training you need for OST is  to meditate”

Not sure whether I imagined  it, but it was a decisive reason for me to delve 
into the world of OST

AND it’s still

“Issue the invitation, sit in a circle, create an agenda and get to work”

WHOO HOO

Alan

Alan Halford & Associates

Open Space Technology Aficionados
Mediation and Conflict Transformation

Facilitators

www.alanhalford.com.au

www.conflictcompany.com.au 
0421 475 252
skype: alanhalford

 

 

 

 

On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:59 pm, R Chaffe via OSList 
 wrote:

 

So does teaching!  

Regards

Rob


On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:47 pm, paul levy via OSList 
 wrote:

I'd never certify OST. Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to 
discover.

 

Best wishes,

 

Paul Levy

 

Paul Levy
Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker

 

O

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Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Michael M Pannwitz via OSList]

Dear Alan,

its really a tough life.
I enjoy your admonition.

Looking at my practice in regard to reading, I see that I guide/misguide 
myself by accepting sources in various ways.
For instance the local "Bild" newspaper is simply good at distracting me 
and I believe nothing they print, including their pictures.
And looking at the other papers I read or look through, I see a 
hierarchy, just by the name of the paper. This I need to pay more 
attention to.

And I realize that other folks have really different hierarchies.

I often help myself by looking into the huge Webster Dictionnary on my 
desk. Under "meditation" it says, among other things:

"continued application of the mind"
and cites Grandell Hicks with:
"enforced seclusion has given him opportunity for the meditation out of 
which this novel has come".


Ok, this could mean that my practice of reading the entire "User's 
Guide" everytime before I facilitated an ost event (for which I needed a 
dgree of seclusion and some time) was "application of mind".
Sticking to the Webster's definition my practice could be called 
"meditation".


So that is me training myself? Just reading?
What I did notice reading the Guide (which I did 200 times) is that 
there was always something new, something I had not consciously seen 
before.
Of course, each read was followed by experiencing myself as facilitator 
(200 times). No wonder I kept discovering stuff.


cheers
mmp





Am 18.08.2019 um 12:31 schrieb Alan Halford via OSList:

Hi Michael
Don’t believe everything you read in wikipedia!

On 18 Aug 2019, at 5:56 pm, Michael M Pannwitz via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
wrote:


Dear Alan,

meditate?
Ok, I ain't trained.
Missed it.
Is it too late?

Looking at meditation in wikipedia it tells me:

"Meditation may be used with the aim of reducing stress, anxiety, 
depression, and pain, and increasing peace, perception,[7] self-concept, 
and well-being.[8][9][10][11] Meditation is under research to define its 
possible health (psychological, neurological, and cardiovascular) and 
other effects."


Shocked myself with the section "criticism":

"The psychologist Thomas Joiner argues that modern mindfulness 
meditation has been "corrupted" for commercial gain by self-help 
celebrities, and suggests that it encourages unhealthy narcissistic and 
self-obsessed mindsets."


Hope you you all enjoy a lovely Sunday.
mmp

Am 17.08.2019 um 11:08 schrieb Alan Halford via OSList:
I have a vague and distant memory of seeing/hearing HO saying or being 
quoted “ The only training you need for OST is  to meditate”
Not sure whether I imagined  it, but it was a decisive reason for me 
to delve into the world of OST

AND it’s still
“Issue the invitation, sit in a circle, create an agenda and get to work”
WHOO HOO
Alan
*Alan Halford & Associates*
*Open Space Technology Aficionados
Mediation and Conflict Transformation*


*Alan Halford & Associates*
*Open Space Technology Aficionados
Mediation and Conflict Transformation*
*Facilitators
**
www.alanhalford.com.au *
*www.conflictcompany.com.au 
0421 475 252
skype: alanhalford*
*


--
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
++49 - 30-772 8000
mmpannw...@gmail.com


Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open 
Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries worldwide

www.openspaceworldmap.org

At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in 
German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual

https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation
___
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Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Alan Halford via OSList]

Hi Michael
Don’t believe everything you read in wikipedia!

On 18 Aug 2019, at 5:56 pm, Michael M Pannwitz via OSList 
 wrote:

Dear Alan,

meditate?
Ok, I ain't trained.
Missed it.
Is it too late?

Looking at meditation in wikipedia it tells me:

"Meditation may be used with the aim of reducing stress, anxiety, depression, 
and pain, and increasing peace, perception,[7] self-concept, and 
well-being.[8][9][10][11] Meditation is under research to define its possible 
health (psychological, neurological, and cardiovascular) and other effects."

Shocked myself with the section "criticism":

"The psychologist Thomas Joiner argues that modern mindfulness meditation has 
been "corrupted" for commercial gain by self-help celebrities, and suggests 
that it encourages unhealthy narcissistic and self-obsessed mindsets."

Hope you you all enjoy a lovely Sunday.
mmp

Am 17.08.2019 um 11:08 schrieb Alan Halford via OSList:
> I have a vague and distant memory of seeing/hearing HO saying or being quoted 
> “ The only training you need for OST is  to meditate”
> Not sure whether I imagined  it, but it was a decisive reason for me to delve 
> into the world of OST
> AND it’s still
> “Issue the invitation, sit in a circle, create an agenda and get to work”
> WHOO HOO
> Alan
> *Alan Halford & Associates*
> *Open Space Technology Aficionados
> Mediation and Conflict Transformation*

Alan Halford & Associates
Open Space Technology Aficionados
Mediation and Conflict Transformation
Facilitators

www.alanhalford.com.au 
www.conflictcompany.com.au  
0421 475 252
skype: alanhalford





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Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Michael M Pannwitz via OSList]

The last sentence in my email of just now was meant to say:
"Hope you AND you all enjoy a lovely Sunday."
mmp

Am 18.08.2019 um 11:56 schrieb Michael M Pannwitz:

Dear Alan,

meditate?
Ok, I ain't trained.
Missed it.
Is it too late?

Looking at meditation in wikipedia it tells me:

"Meditation may be used with the aim of reducing stress, anxiety, 
depression, and pain, and increasing peace, perception,[7] self-concept, 
and well-being.[8][9][10][11] Meditation is under research to define its 
possible health (psychological, neurological, and cardiovascular) and 
other effects."


Shocked myself with the section "criticism":

"The psychologist Thomas Joiner argues that modern mindfulness 
meditation has been "corrupted" for commercial gain by self-help 
celebrities, and suggests that it encourages unhealthy narcissistic and 
self-obsessed mindsets."


Hope you you all enjoy a lovely Sunday.
mmp

Am 17.08.2019 um 11:08 schrieb Alan Halford via OSList:
I have a vague and distant memory of seeing/hearing HO saying or being 
quoted “ The only training you need for OST is  to meditate”
Not sure whether I imagined  it, but it was a decisive reason for me 
to delve into the world of OST

AND it’s still
“Issue the invitation, sit in a circle, create an agenda and get to work”
WHOO HOO
Alan
*Alan Halford & Associates*
*Open Space Technology Aficionados
Mediation and Conflict Transformation*
*Facilitators
**
www.alanhalford.com.au *
*www.conflictcompany.com.au 
0421 475 252
skype: alanhalford*
*
*




On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:59 pm, R Chaffe via OSList 
> wrote:


So does teaching!

Regards
Rob

On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:47 pm, paul levy via OSList 
> wrote:


I'd never certify OST. Only takes one minute to explain, or one 
second to discover.


Best wishes,

Paul Levy

Paul Levy
Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker

O


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--
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
++49 - 30-772 8000
mmpannw...@gmail.com


Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open 
Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries worldwide

www.openspaceworldmap.org

At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in 
German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual

https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation
___
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Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Michael M Pannwitz via OSList]

Dear Alan,

meditate?
Ok, I ain't trained.
Missed it.
Is it too late?

Looking at meditation in wikipedia it tells me:

"Meditation may be used with the aim of reducing stress, anxiety, 
depression, and pain, and increasing peace, perception,[7] self-concept, 
and well-being.[8][9][10][11] Meditation is under research to define its 
possible health (psychological, neurological, and cardiovascular) and 
other effects."


Shocked myself with the section "criticism":

"The psychologist Thomas Joiner argues that modern mindfulness 
meditation has been "corrupted" for commercial gain by self-help 
celebrities, and suggests that it encourages unhealthy narcissistic and 
self-obsessed mindsets."


Hope you you all enjoy a lovely Sunday.
mmp

Am 17.08.2019 um 11:08 schrieb Alan Halford via OSList:
I have a vague and distant memory of seeing/hearing HO saying or being 
quoted “ The only training you need for OST is  to meditate”
Not sure whether I imagined  it, but it was a decisive reason for me to 
delve into the world of OST

AND it’s still
“Issue the invitation, sit in a circle, create an agenda and get to work”
WHOO HOO
Alan
*Alan Halford & Associates*
*Open Space Technology Aficionados
Mediation and Conflict Transformation*
*Facilitators
**
www.alanhalford.com.au *
*www.conflictcompany.com.au 
0421 475 252
skype: alanhalford*
*
*




On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:59 pm, R Chaffe via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
wrote:


So does teaching!

Regards
Rob

On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:47 pm, paul levy via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
wrote:


I'd never certify OST. Only takes one minute to explain, or one second 
to discover.


Best wishes,

Paul Levy

Paul Levy
Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker

O


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--
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
++49 - 30-772 8000
mmpannw...@gmail.com


Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open 
Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries worldwide

www.openspaceworldmap.org

At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in 
German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual

https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation
___
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To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org
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Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Alan Halford via OSList]

I have a vague and distant memory of seeing/hearing HO saying or being quoted “ 
The only training you need for OST is  to meditate”
Not sure whether I imagined  it, but it was a decisive reason for me to delve 
into the world of OST
AND it’s still
“Issue the invitation, sit in a circle, create an agenda and get to work”
WHOO HOO
Alan
Alan Halford & Associates
Open Space Technology Aficionados
Mediation and Conflict Transformation
Facilitators

www.alanhalford.com.au 
www.conflictcompany.com.au  
0421 475 252
skype: alanhalford





On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:59 pm, R Chaffe via OSList 
 wrote:

So does teaching!  

Regards
Rob

On 17 Aug 2019, at 4:47 pm, paul levy via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:

> I'd never certify OST. Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to 
> discover.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Paul Levy
> 
> Paul Levy
> Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker
> 
> O
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Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Michael M Pannwitz via OSList]

It would not surprise me if Jesus had come to the conclusion that all 
organizations created by man are the work of the devil.


That could then have held him back from founding an institute certifying 
his first followers.


Greetings from Berlin where I mulled over all the certification 
organizations that I encountered in my life. They all contributed to the 
ossification of their victims and made a lot of money.


But then, wait a minute, I do remember taking part in  a training for OD 
consultants and parish consultants back in the seventies of the last 
century in the last millenium.
Folks attending were invited for a final day of certification after the 
training concluded (very complex training, including 5 ten day training 
sessions over 2 years, regional groups for gatherings between the blocks 
and prescribed hours of supervision by especially trained supervisors 
that were certified, of course, none other were accepted).


Now, the invitation to get certified was offered to all of us.
Some needed a certification to work with their skills in their 
organizations.

Others did not. I was one of them. Actually, there were 5 of us.
At first we felt it nice to have a free day.
But, I dont know how that came about but from my present stage of 
looking at stuff I am sure it was the Force of Selforganization that got 
us thinking about all 5 of us certifying each and all of the others, 
including oneself. Only if they passed the certification, of course.
So we set out to come up with a process. We did this in open space (had 
not shown its vicious head yet in 1975) and had a wonderful time. We 
actually drew up a certification document and got two of the training 
staff to put their signature to it along with those of us five. This 
made it look gorgeous. I still have it. Its in German. I could dig it up 
in my archives if any of you would like to get a copy.
As we 5 heard later, our collegial certification was enormously tougher 
than that offered by the training institute.


Have a great day wherever you are
mmp

Am 16.08.2019 um 19:45 schrieb Marai Kiele via OSList:



Am 14.08.2019 um 18:42 schrieb Mark Carmel via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>>:


Chris, thank you for your response.  However, an Empire is defined as 
an authoritarian organization of countries, or people, under single 
rule like the Roman empire. The chuch's first rule of becoming 
certified as high priest is that women are not allowed In.  We see how 
that worked out... That is not OS and is not what I recommend. So 
please do not misunderstand my intent. I am not calling for empire 
building or authoritarianism, but calling for organization of an 
Educational Institute to train and educate those who facilitate OST in 
the world of empire building WE all live in. If we leave it to mother 
nature to do it out of Spirit alone we could be waiting another 4,000 
years.  How to prepare facilitators and participants to face the 
inevitable pushback from their own leaders (like now) or from leaders 
of empires once raw honesty is put out there is an advanced skill 
set.  One that will help or hurt outcomes. Chris, you are spot on to 
invoke the Devil. Because the Devil always attacks honesty that 
exposes the hidden, dishonest agendas of leaders who proudly open 
space only to crush those who are Too honest for their liking. Therein 
lies a significant learning moment to train facilitators in the 
ability to discern authenticity in the leadership before engaging. 
Dishonesty has become the new trend in management and leadership. Just 
look at the state of American politics and media coverage of it. The 
number one contraindiction as HO aptly defines it, in my experience is 
dishonest leadership. This must be discerned first, as only one of the 
teaching lessons for all future facilitators. Otherwise good, honest 
participants and their facilitators are given up to the devilish 
empire builders you describe.  Especially in the great

US of A democracy that has become Retaliation Nation.
Thanks again Chris!
Miss you having not seen you since Dulles.
Peace!
MC

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 10:05 AM Chris Corrigan 
mailto:chris.corri...@gmail.com>> wrote:


You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of
Christianity, right? And that subsequent attempts to do so
basically created a toxic blending of Church and Empire that
contributed to mass amounts of suffering through incredibly toxic
and psychopathic uses of power and control for most of the last
1700 years?

And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.

Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It
does not want or need more  people running around saying they are
certified to open space.  It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials
mean nothing if you aren’t actually opening space.  And if you are
opening space, no one will care what your credentials are.  The
best OST meetings I’ve ever been 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Marai Kiele via OSList]

Ooops - a handling mistake. 
Just delete this and the former empty message...

> Am 16.08.2019 um 19:45 schrieb Marai Kiele via OSList 
> :
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 14.08.2019 um 18:42 schrieb Mark Carmel via OSList 
>> mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>>:
>> 
>> Chris, thank you for your response.  However, an Empire is defined as an 
>> authoritarian organization of countries, or people, under single rule like 
>> the Roman empire. The chuch's first rule of becoming certified as high 
>> priest is that women are not allowed In.  We see how that worked out... That 
>> is not OS and is not what I recommend. So please do not misunderstand my 
>> intent. I am not calling for empire building or authoritarianism, but 
>> calling for organization of an Educational Institute to train and educate 
>> those who facilitate OST in the world of empire building WE all live in. If 
>> we leave it to mother nature to do it out of Spirit alone we could be 
>> waiting another 4,000 years.  How to prepare facilitators and participants 
>> to face the inevitable pushback from their own leaders (like now) or from 
>> leaders of empires once raw honesty is put out there is an advanced skill 
>> set.  One that will help or hurt outcomes. Chris, you are spot on to invoke 
>> the Devil. Because the Devil always attacks honesty that exposes the hidden, 
>> dishonest agendas of leaders who proudly open space only to crush those who 
>> are Too honest for their liking. Therein lies a significant learning moment 
>> to train facilitators in the ability to discern authenticity in the 
>> leadership before engaging. Dishonesty has become the new trend in 
>> management and leadership. Just look at the state of American politics and 
>> media coverage of it. The number one contraindiction as HO aptly defines it, 
>> in my experience is dishonest leadership. This must be discerned first, as 
>> only one of the teaching lessons for all future facilitators. Otherwise 
>> good, honest participants and their facilitators are given up to the 
>> devilish empire builders you describe.  Especially in the great 
>> US of A democracy that has become Retaliation Nation.  
>> Thanks again Chris! 
>> Miss you having not seen you since Dulles.
>> Peace! 
>> MC
>> 
>> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 10:05 AM Chris Corrigan > > wrote:
>> You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity, 
>> right? And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic 
>> blending of Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering 
>> through incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for most 
>> of the last 1700 years?
>> 
>> And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.  
>> 
>> Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not 
>> want or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open 
>> space.  It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t 
>> actually opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care what 
>> your credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of were 
>> facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared about the 
>> participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they took nothing 
>> for granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and others.  Some of 
>> these people were 14 years old. 
>> 
>> Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have ever 
>> met, too, for the same reasons. 
>> 
>> Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how I 
>> learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you. Resist 
>> the devilish temptation to build an empire.
>> 
>> Chris
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
>>> mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
>>> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
>>> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time 
>>> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an 
>>> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that 
>>> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, 
>>> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space 
>>> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world 
>>> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who 
>>> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves 
>>> nice fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do 
>>> matter. Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own 
>>> title and otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their 
>>> self given titles. When you talk about overcoming the 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Marai Kiele via OSList]

> Am 14.08.2019 um 18:42 schrieb Mark Carmel via OSList 
> :
> 
> Chris, thank you for your response.  However, an Empire is defined as an 
> authoritarian organization of countries, or people, under single rule like 
> the Roman empire. The chuch's first rule of becoming certified as high priest 
> is that women are not allowed In.  We see how that worked out... That is not 
> OS and is not what I recommend. So please do not misunderstand my intent. I 
> am not calling for empire building or authoritarianism, but calling for 
> organization of an Educational Institute to train and educate those who 
> facilitate OST in the world of empire building WE all live in. If we leave it 
> to mother nature to do it out of Spirit alone we could be waiting another 
> 4,000 years.  How to prepare facilitators and participants to face the 
> inevitable pushback from their own leaders (like now) or from leaders of 
> empires once raw honesty is put out there is an advanced skill set.  One that 
> will help or hurt outcomes. Chris, you are spot on to invoke the Devil. 
> Because the Devil always attacks honesty that exposes the hidden, dishonest 
> agendas of leaders who proudly open space only to crush those who are Too 
> honest for their liking. Therein lies a significant learning moment to train 
> facilitators in the ability to discern authenticity in the leadership before 
> engaging. Dishonesty has become the new trend in management and leadership. 
> Just look at the state of American politics and media coverage of it. The 
> number one contraindiction as HO aptly defines it, in my experience is 
> dishonest leadership. This must be discerned first, as only one of the 
> teaching lessons for all future facilitators. Otherwise good, honest 
> participants and their facilitators are given up to the devilish empire 
> builders you describe.  Especially in the great 
> US of A democracy that has become Retaliation Nation.  
> Thanks again Chris! 
> Miss you having not seen you since Dulles.
> Peace! 
> MC
> 
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 10:05 AM Chris Corrigan  > wrote:
> You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity, 
> right? And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic 
> blending of Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering 
> through incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for most 
> of the last 1700 years?
> 
> And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.  
> 
> Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not want 
> or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open space.  
> It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t actually 
> opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care what your 
> credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of were 
> facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared about the 
> participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they took nothing 
> for granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and others.  Some of 
> these people were 14 years old. 
> 
> Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have ever 
> met, too, for the same reasons. 
> 
> Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how I 
> learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you. Resist 
> the devilish temptation to build an empire.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
>> mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
>> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
>> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time 
>> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an 
>> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that 
>> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, 
>> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space 
>> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world 
>> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who 
>> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves nice 
>> fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. 
>> Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own title and 
>> otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given 
>> titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and with 
>> the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it makes 
>> sense to put some structure to the educational credentialing of OSTsters 
>> from apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and MISSION and 
>> 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Tonnie van der Zouwen via OSList]

Hear hear!


Thanks Harrison. 


Greetings from Tanzania (great place to be on holiday, talking about being 
natural) 


Tonnie




Tonnie van der Zouwen


Van der Zouwen Organisatieadvies


www.tonnievanderzouwen.nl


+31 6 50 69 79 82







On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 8:24 PM +0300, "Harrison Owen via OSList" 
 wrote:












Actually, I beg to differ. As one who has been in the Open Space game as long 
as anyone, I suppose – the whole possibility of certification (or whatever, by 
which ever name) is a) oxymoronic, b) technically dubious (I can’t imagine how 
you would actually do it), and strategically a bad play. Teaching/certifying 
Open Space is rather like certifying breathing … a natural activity which comes 
with our existence. It is true that some people learn to do it (breathing) 
better … Olympic Athletes for example … but it really is a natural act. Opening 
space is a natural act. Some do it better than others … but it is what we do. 
Creating a Certification program for enabling that boggles my mind. Right up 
there with creating a “certification program” for being “human.”  B) 
Technically dubious… Every situation is so contextually defined that any 
criteria for performance (certification) would be so limited as to be not 
useful. Translated that would mean something like – would Open Space 
Certification guarantee that the individual would work with equal effectiveness 
with Afghanis and North American White Supremacists? I doubt that, and more 
than that… it all seems to happen very naturally all by itself, has for a 
number of years … (with absolutely NO Program, OST is now a worldwide 
phenomenon). C) Strategically a bad play… Fact is, OST is the control oriented, 
certification aficionada, managers -- worst nightmare.  If it actually did what 
30+ years of global experience seems to demonstrate that it does… Much if not 
all of what currently is the “lode star” of managerial competence, “CONTROL” … 
Never happened. But we can’t let that secret out. Blow our cover! However, if 
you quietly open space wherever, whenever, however, about what ever… as often 
as you can – Magic does seem to happen. And the truth is ( my truth) is that 
anybody can do it. 

 

ho

 

From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of David 
Osborne via OSList
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 12:33 PM
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
Cc: David Osborne; Mark Carmel
Subject: Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this 
conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

 

Great thoughtful post Mark. Thanks for stimulating my thinking, reflection and 
imagination. 

 

David

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 14, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
 wrote:

Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time as 
Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an invitation 
and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that from the most 
seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, saying...we 
discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space facilitator 
normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world has evolved 
into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who spoke the 
strongest against certification have already given themselves nice fancy 
titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. Right now 
open space facilitators must give themself their own title and otherwise have 
no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given titles. When you 
talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and with the retaliation 
nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it makes sense to put some 
structure to the educational credentialing of OSTsters from apprentice  to 
Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and MISSION and VALUES and STRATEGY, why 
is it that we facilitators want to apply that same organizational structure for 
ALL other organizations but resist doing the same for OUR work, to create OUR 
organization... What IS our vision...to hope the world magically organizes 
around OST... or to make it happen through a viable 1,000 year vision.  In his 
great book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is spot on to define OST as the ONE way 
for leaders to be a caretaker of the Spirit.  We must not be naive to believe 
that leaders will not crush the Spirit once it emerges in Open Space. This 
requires highly advanced training to be able to navigate the process over 
decades of implementation.  ALL great decisions require great leadership. If 
OST ever gets an organization, I hope this idea will be considered by its 
leaders or of course someone else will do it or it will not be done. In some 
ways, or all ways, Harrison has created a new religion of Sp

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc. WHY JESUS SHOULD HAVE set certification criteria...

[Ron Quartel via OSList]

I have been part of the Agile movement from early on - 2002.

Agile felt different before and after certifications crept in. In
my opinion, Agile went in a direction different to what it started out from
and I wonder how much certification played into that.

I would rather OST remained without certification.

Ron Quartel


On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 3:28 AM Royle, Karl via OSList <
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> Mark, have you read reinventing organisations by Laloux?
>
>
>
> Bosslessness   or Bosslessly   new words for a new age coined by my
> colleague and collaborator Jasmina Nikolic (that’s where I first heard the
> term).
>
>
>
> Vison mission….etc can translate to purpose… or it can emerge from
> conversation.. human agency and agency freedom.. there’s the thing ☺
>
>
>
> K
>
> *From: *OSList  on behalf of Mark
> Carmel via OSList 
> *Reply to: *World wide Open Space Technology email list <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> *Date: *Wednesday, 14 August 2019 at 18:21
> *To: *Chris Corrigan 
> *Cc: *Mark Carmel , World wide Open Space
> Technology email list 
> *Subject: *[OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this
> conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc. WHY JESUS SHOULD HAVE
> set certification criteria...
>
>
>
> Chris Corrigan thank you . You just hit the nail on the head giving fodder
> the argument FOR certification.  You're right Jesus did not certify
> practitioners. He left it to human nature. Then women were banned so the
> men could continue to control the women (and children). Jesus did set the
> Strategy with his disciples: What to do.  But did not set the Tactics: How
> to do it. Every good strategic plan has strategies AND  tactics to
> implement strategies, right...  What IF Jesus certified
> practitioners...would he have banned women, etc Had Jesus set the
> implementation tactical guidelines then perhaps it would not have become so
> duplicitous.  Jesus is the best example of a person being crucified for
> honesty in speaking out about what he saw as right and wrong in the empire.
> . Harrison Owen thank you for giving us our Bible...and religion.
>
> Godspeed to ALL in implementing it.
>
> Mark Carmel
>
> MC the MC - Global Guru of Peace and Human Understanding - Desciple and
> Friend of the GREAT LEADER Harrison Owen...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 10:05 AM Chris Corrigan 
> wrote:
>
> You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity,
> right? And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic
> blending of Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering
> through incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for
> most of the last 1700 years?
>
>
>
> And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.
>
>
>
> Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not
> want or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open
> space.  It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t
> actually opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care
> what your credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of
> were facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared
> about the participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they
> took nothing for granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and
> others.  Some of these people were 14 years old.
>
>
>
> Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have
> ever met, too, for the same reasons.
>
>
>
> Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how
> I learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you.
> Resist the devilish temptation to build an empire.
>
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like
> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train
> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time
> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an
> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that
> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down,
> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space
> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world
> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who
> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves
> nice fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do
> matter. Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own
> title and otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their
> self given titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of
> executives and with the 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Michael M Pannwitz via OSList]

Dear Karl,

thanks for your note and especially the third paragraph:
"Certification becomes necessary I guess when you need to commodify."
This points to another perspective around our issue at hand.

Allow me to add the link to "commodification" in wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodification


In addition I quote the first 5 sentences at the beginning of the 
wikipedia entry:
"Within a capitalist economic system, Commodification is the 
transformation of goods, services, ideas and people into commodities or 
objects of trade. A commodity at its most basic, according to Arjun 
Appadurai, is "anything intended for exchange," or any object of 
economic value.[1]


Commodification is often criticised on the grounds that some things 
ought not to be treated as commodities—for example water, education, 
data, information, knowledge, human life, and animal life.[2][3]


According to Gøsta Esping-Andersen people are commodified or 'turned 
into objects' when selling their labour on the market to an employer.[4] 
Slavery is a form of the commodification of people."


In the last couple of years I busied myself investigating the Dialogue 
according to David Bohm. One central element in that form of dialogue is 
to become aware or more aware of ones own assumptions and of the 
assumptions of others. Its a tough exercise for me. Especially when I 
follow Bohms suggestion, to sort of holding an assumption in front of 
you and study it, try to find its source.

This has helped me with my assumptions about "certification".

Have a great day
mmp




Am 15.08.2019 um 11:35 schrieb Royle, Karl via OSList:

On certification…

As an educator of many years… there are purposes for certification. 
These mainly sit around competency to perform certain services… 
paramedics, medical doctors etc. They provide entry to a guild of sorts 
and tell people, in theory, that I’m not dangerous.


Open space, I think, is a little different as it’s a human good rather 
than a commodity or a service that any human being could pick up and 
use. Clearly, there is expertise involved in facilitating that is grown 
over several years’ experience and I guess people never stop learning 
because by their very nature each event is different.  However, 
essentially, any community could use open space.


Certification becomes necessary I guess when you need to commodify.

Varoufakis notes: “/A dive, a sunset, a joke: all can have an enormous 
amount of experiential value and no exchange value whatsoever.” 
“Anything without a price, anything that can’t be sold, tends to be 
considered worthless, whereas anything with a price, it is thought, will 
be desirable.”/


I have several agile certifications and several teaching ones. These 
don’t necessarily make me a great practitioner of either that comes 
through review from participants and reflection and improvement each 
time on my part. One thing I do know is that using OST is always an 
adventure an a bit of a leap of faith for the person/people who want to 
use it. The technique or framework just works and works well and I have 
a few ideas for why it does but we all have those.


Finally…. A few words from McLuhan..

*Someday, all of us will spend our lives in our own school, the world. 
And education –in the sense of learning to love, to grow, to change– can 
become not the woeful preparation for some job that makes us less than 
we could be but the very essence, the joyful whole of existence itself. 
**FULL CITATION: McLuhan, M., & Leonard, G. B. (1967). The future of 
education: The class of 1989. /Look, February 21/, 23-24. Online Source 
http://learningspaces.org/files/mcluhanfs.html *


I think OST supports this notion.

*From: *OSList  on behalf of 
Bhavesh Patel via OSList 
*Reply to: *World wide Open Space Technology email list 


*Date: *Wednesday, 14 August 2019 at 23:16
*To: *World wide Open Space Technology email list 

*Cc: *Bhavesh Patel , Mark Carmel 

*Subject: *Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this 
conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.


Hey Mark,

If you have passion for that, and in your freedom you want to take 
responsibility for that, then please do what ever you feel called to 
do... and the results will speak for themselves. None of us can control 
the space for you. And one thing is for sure, we will learn from your 
experiments...


Smiles Bhav...

On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 at 18:18, Mark Carmel via OSList 
mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
wrote:


Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a
certification-like program and an organizational structure for the
future if we want to train people in the finer points of sustaining
open space interventions over time as Chris has done. There is a lot
more to it than just throwing out an invitation and opening up the
market place. It is interesting to me that from the most seasoned
   

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Mark Carmel via OSList]

Beautiful thoughts and logic Marai! Thanks for sharing!
MC


On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 12:24 PM Marai Kiele <
genuine-cont...@joyful-together.com> wrote:

>
> Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to discover.
>
>
> Which I neither believe nor agree to, Paul.
>
> If it only took one minute to explain, wouldn’t this whole list, all of
> Harrison’s books, thousands of peoples postings, conversations, training
> materials etc all be totally obsolete?
> Why would we even have any further conversation about it?
>
> *
>
> In 2002, when first I read about OST for the first time, I „got“ it, on a
> deep spiritual level.
> Half a year later I went to my first OST, which happened to be a full 2,5
> days exposure.
> I was thoroughly impacted.
>
> Afterwards, I knew that I wanted to not only „use“ OST as a process, but I
> acknowledged it as a way of living.
> And I also knew I was setting myself up for quite a journey.
>
> I learned about practicalities of setting up OST with small and large
> numbers of people, and later in online settings.
> I learned about helping a group of people to discover a burning theme.
> About when to use it and when not.
> About presence and holding space.
> About becoming an embodiment of „Whatever happens…“ which to me is quit
> different than just declaring the principle, but not living it
> And so much more...
>
> Especially I learned about the difference of using OST as a one-time event
> (conference / annual meeting …) or within a long term project / an
> organisation.
>
> To me, that difference is like having one deep conversation on the train
> with a stranger (easy, at least for me)
> OR
> building a long-term relationship, really getting to know another, on good
> days and bad days, moving through conflict, evolving together over time
> (not so easy, at least not for me)
>
> Two quite different endeavours.
>
> Not something to learn within only one minute.
> But maybe I am just a very slow learner…
>
> Marai
>
> Joyful Together
> Liberating Joy at Work
> phone: +49 171-810 7161
> *www.about.me* 
>
> Virtual: Join the monthly
> Global Oasis for Emerging Leaders
> 
> In person: Join the OLS in Berlin, Nov 18 - 20, 2019
> Open Leadership Symposium Berlin
> 
>
> Am 14.08.2019 um 19:38 schrieb paul levy via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>:
>
> I'd never certify OST. Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to
> discover.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Paul Levy
>
> Paul Levy
> Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker
>
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2019, 17:05 Chris Corrigan via OSList, <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>> You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity,
>> right? And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic
>> blending of Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering
>> through incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for
>> most of the last 1700 years?
>>
>> And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.
>>
>> Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not
>> want or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open
>> space.  It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t
>> actually opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care
>> what your credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of
>> were facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared
>> about the participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they
>> took nothing for granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and
>> others.  Some of these people were 14 years old.
>>
>> Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have
>> ever met, too, for the same reasons.
>>
>> Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how
>> I learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you.
>> Resist the devilish temptation to build an empire.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a
>> certification-like program and an organizational structure for the future
>> if we want to train people in the finer points of sustaining open space
>> interventions over time as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than
>> just throwing out an invitation and opening up the market place. It is
>> interesting to me that from the most seasoned open space masters the idea
>> was instantly shot down, saying...we discussed that already... Now that is
>> not what an open space facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other
>> people's ideas. The world has evolved into one that respects credentials.
>> Interestingly the ones who 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[R Chaffe via OSList]

Michael, 
I would add one thing and that open space is about a living evolving system, 
each “space” has unique characteristics that relate to that group at that time. 

I think I am saying that although the principles are the same effective open 
space will be unique to that time and those present.  The timing of events and 
the staging will suit the special space in the life of that group or 
organisation.  “It lives”.   There is a hymn that says “He lives in me and He 
lives in you.”. Open Space by definition will grow and organise itself as a 
self organising sustainable system.  How good is that!

Regards
Rob

> On 15 Aug 2019, at 5:08 am, Harrison Owen via OSList 
>  wrote:
> 
> Brilliant… Michael. Thank You!
>  
> ho
>  
> From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of 
> Michael Herman via OSList
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 2:46 PM
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> Cc: Michael Herman
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this 
> conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.
>  
> Harrison, your likening OS to breathing is true enough.  And maybe 
> storytelling would be a better example.  Everyone tells stories, the audience 
> matters, your history matters, their history matters, what works in one 
> story/situation won't work in another.  Every invitation is a story.  What 
> matters is practice, and after telling a few stories, we can start to tell 
> stories about the stories we've invited people into.  
>  
> As for breaking into this invitation/story game, find a teacher, anyone who's 
> done it before, and share their stories a bit until someone lets us do you 
> first one.  The first time I tried to open space, the (Catholic church) 
> organizers were doubtful.  I told them stories I'd heard from you and others. 
>  Still doubtful, as those stories were about AT and other strange places, I 
> found a 68-year old nun you'd trained to tell her stories, who assured them 
> that "Catholics can indeed do this."  And I was on my way.  
>  
> From the standpoint of storytelling, OS is self-certifying.  Better to tell a 
> good story about "how I did it somewhere before" than tell a story or wave a 
> piece of paper that says "i paid for a training and so-and-so says i know 
> what i'm doing."  And getting started, better to rely on others' stories, 
> because we still need to be able to tell them in a way that encourages trust. 
>  We shape their stories into our own story of what's possible in this new 
> situation.  If, when, we succeed, we have been certified by our sponsors, 
> clients, organizers, colleagues.  These people can't outsource their work to 
> an OS certification body, they need to investigate the would-be 
> facilitator/leader for themselves, listen to and test and join the stories 
> that the aspiring facilitator can tell, and decide for themselves if this can 
> work for them.  Then they certify to the community that this event is worth 
> attending.  Then the facilitator certifies to the group that they are worth 
> listening to, and following.  It's all a very circular process in some ways.
>  
> It's also linear, so I want to put a plug in for "lineage."  It matters to 
> me, and has mattered to some clients perhaps along my way, that I have spent 
> time learning and practicing with Harrison and some of his oldest students.  
> They haven't necessarily met these folks, but they know some of their stories 
> from me and they know that I know these people.  Community and a line of 
> storytelling matters.  When I've sat with Tibetans teachers, even very high 
> lamas like Dalai Lama, they typically tell you right up front, "This is not 
> my teaching I'm going to give you, this is what I got from my teacher, who 
> got it from his teacher, who got it from her teacher..."  This kind of 
> expanding storytelling lineage is what allows for the wild diversification of 
> practice without a loss of potency.  In this way, each branch of the teaching 
> is an experiment, a test, in community, that can succeed or fail on its own.  
> The buddhists generally draw this as a lineage tree, with the root teacher at 
> the bottom, rather than a hierarchy with a certify chief or council at the 
> top.  Some branches might prove weak and fail, but that's okay.  There are 
> still many other connections to the root.
>  
> There is no need to certify practice, only to keep telling stories about our 
> connections to the root teacher and story.  At this point, Harrison has been 
> certified as root teacher by Berrett-Koehler, but that came many years after 
> he was certified by a community of practitioners who read the book where he 
> self-certified h

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[R Chaffe via OSList]

Yes! Head and heart linked by a passion to serve.

Regards
Rob

> On 15 Aug 2019, at 2:05 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList 
>  wrote:
> 
> You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity, 
> right? And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic 
> blending of Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering 
> through incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for most 
> of the last 1700 years?
> 
> And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.  
> 
> Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not want 
> or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open space.  
> It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t actually 
> opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care what your 
> credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of were 
> facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared about the 
> participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they took nothing 
> for granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and others.  Some of 
> these people were 14 years old. 
> 
> Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have ever 
> met, too, for the same reasons. 
> 
> Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how I 
> learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you. Resist 
> the devilish temptation to build an empire.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
>> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
>> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time 
>> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an 
>> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that 
>> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, 
>> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space 
>> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world 
>> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who 
>> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves nice 
>> fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. 
>> Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own title and 
>> otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given 
>> titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and with 
>> the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it makes 
>> sense to put some structure to the educational credentialing of OSTsters 
>> from apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and MISSION and 
>> VALUES and STRATEGY, why is it that we facilitators want to apply that same 
>> organizational structure for ALL other organizations but resist doing the 
>> same for OUR work, to create OUR organization... What IS our vision...to 
>> hope the world magically organizes around OST... or to make it happen 
>> through a viable 1,000 year vision.  In his great book, Leadership Is,  
>> Harrison is spot on to define OST as the ONE way for leaders to be a 
>> caretaker of the Spirit.  We must not be naive to believe that leaders will 
>> not crush the Spirit once it emerges in Open Space. This requires highly 
>> advanced training to be able to navigate the process over decades of 
>> implementation.  ALL great decisions require great leadership. If OST ever 
>> gets an organization, I hope this idea will be considered by its leaders or 
>> of course someone else will do it or it will not be done. In some ways, or 
>> all ways, Harrison has created a new religion of Spirit and I hope that an 
>> organizational structure WILL be created kinda like that other dude who 
>> started out with 12 disciples. 
>> Peace,
>> Mark Carmel
>> 
>>> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 11:03 PM  
>>> wrote:
>>> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>>> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>> 
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> oslist-requ...@lists.openspacetech.org
>>> 
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> oslist-ow...@lists.openspacetech.org
>>> 
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Today's Topics:
>>> 
>>>1. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Chris Kloth)
>>>2. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Harrison Owen)
>>>3. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Peggy Holman)
>>>4. 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[doug via OSList]

Mark--

It has been my experience that people who want certification of anything
are the ones who want to do the certifying.

OST does have an organization. Several of them around the world.

:- Doug. Germann



On 8/14/19 11:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a
> certification-like program and an organizational structure for the
> future if we want to train people in the finer points of sustaining open
> space interventions over time as Chris has done. There is a lot more to
> it than just throwing out an invitation and opening up the market place.
> It is interesting to me that from the most seasoned open space masters
> the idea was instantly shot down, saying...we discussed that already...
> Now that is not what an open space facilitator normally does right?
> Shoot down other people's ideas. The world has evolved into one that
> respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who spoke the strongest
> against certification have already given themselves nice fancy titles.
> Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. Right now
> open space facilitators must give themself their own title and otherwise
> have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given
> titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and
> with the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it
> makes sense to put some structure to the educational credentialing of
> OSTsters from apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and
> MISSION and VALUES and STRATEGY, why is it that we facilitators want to
> apply that same organizational structure for ALL other organizations but
> resist doing the same for OUR work, to create OUR organization... What
> IS our vision...to hope the world magically organizes around OST... or
> to make it happen through a viable 1,000 year vision.  In his great
> book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is spot on to define OST as the ONE way
> for leaders to be a caretaker of the Spirit.  We must not be naive to
> believe that leaders will not crush the Spirit once it emerges in Open
> Space. This requires highly advanced training to be able to navigate the
> process over decades of implementation.  ALL great decisions require
> great leadership. If OST ever gets an organization, I hope this idea
> will be considered by its leaders or of course someone else will do it
> or it will not be done. In some ways, or all ways, Harrison has created
> a new religion of Spirit and I hope that an organizational structure
> WILL be created kinda like that other dude who started out with 12
> disciples. 
> Peace,
> Mark Carmel
> 
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 11:03 PM  > wrote:
> 
> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>         oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> 
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         oslist-requ...@lists.openspacetech.org
> 
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         oslist-ow...@lists.openspacetech.org
> 
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Chris Kloth)
>    2. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Harrison Owen)
>    3. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Peggy Holman)
>    4. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Jake Yeager)
>    5. Open Space Hangout! Tues Aug 13, 12 PM EDT! (Tony Budak)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 17:25:41 -0400
> From: Chris Kloth  >
> To: jacob.yea...@gmail.com 
> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>          >
> Subject: Re: [OSList] OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning?
> Message-ID:
>         <20190812172541.20436ug8j3rp3...@tcsso-mail2.inetuhosted.net
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed"
> 
> Jake, I hope to get back to you by this weekend. I am in the middle of 
> a project with Prosecutor Impact (see Adam Foss' Ted Talk) that is 
> pretty consuming. I know I have the file somewhere.
> 
> That said, Michael's comment about what's on the wall triggered a 
> powerful memory. When I got to my site the night before we 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Bhavesh Patel via OSList]

Hey Mark,

If you have passion for that, and in your freedom you want to take
responsibility for that, then please do what ever you feel called to do...
and the results will speak for themselves. None of us can control the space
for you. And one thing is for sure, we will learn from your experiments...


Smiles Bhav...



On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 at 18:18, Mark Carmel via OSList <
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like
> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train
> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time
> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an
> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that
> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down,
> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space
> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world
> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who
> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves
> nice fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do
> matter. Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own
> title and otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their
> self given titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of
> executives and with the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at
> Hong Kong) it makes sense to put some structure to the educational
> credentialing of OSTsters from apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms
> of VISION and MISSION and VALUES and STRATEGY, why is it that we
> facilitators want to apply that same organizational structure for ALL other
> organizations but resist doing the same for OUR work, to create OUR
> organization... What IS our vision...to hope the world magically organizes
> around OST... or to make it happen through a viable 1,000 year vision.  In
> his great book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is spot on to define OST as the
> ONE way for leaders to be a caretaker of the Spirit.  We must not be naive
> to believe that leaders will not crush the Spirit once it emerges in Open
> Space. This requires highly advanced training to be able to navigate the
> process over decades of implementation.  ALL great decisions require great
> leadership. If OST ever gets an organization, I hope this idea will be
> considered by its leaders or of course someone else will do it or it will
> not be done. In some ways, or all ways, Harrison has created a new religion
> of Spirit and I hope that an organizational structure WILL be created kinda
> like that other dude who started out with 12 disciples.
> Peace,
> Mark Carmel
>
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 11:03 PM 
> wrote:
>
>> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> oslist-requ...@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> oslist-ow...@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>1. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Chris Kloth)
>>2. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Harrison Owen)
>>3. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Peggy Holman)
>>4. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Jake Yeager)
>>5. Open Space Hangout! Tues Aug 13, 12 PM EDT! (Tony Budak)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 17:25:41 -0400
>> From: Chris Kloth 
>> To: jacob.yea...@gmail.com
>> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning?
>> Message-ID:
>> <20190812172541.20436ug8j3rp3...@tcsso-mail2.inetuhosted.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed"
>>
>> Jake, I hope to get back to you by this weekend. I am in the middle of
>> a project with Prosecutor Impact (see Adam Foss' Ted Talk) that is
>> pretty consuming. I know I have the file somewhere.
>>
>> That said, Michael's comment about what's on the wall triggered a
>> powerful memory. When I got to my site the night before we were to
>> start a very resistant top executive made it clear to me that he
>> thought this approach a ridiculous waste of time. He also made it
>> clear that he was sure labor issues over wages and other workplace
>> issues would probably come up and that there was no way these could be
>> addressed in such a setting.
>>
>> I thanked him for sharing 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Harrison Owen via OSList]

Brilliant… Michael. Thank You!

 

ho

 

From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of 
Michael Herman via OSList
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 2:46 PM
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
Cc: Michael Herman
Subject: Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this 
conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

 

Harrison, your likening OS to breathing is true enough.  And maybe storytelling 
would be a better example.  Everyone tells stories, the audience matters, your 
history matters, their history matters, what works in one story/situation won't 
work in another.  Every invitation is a story.  What matters is practice, and 
after telling a few stories, we can start to tell stories about the stories 
we've invited people into.  

 

As for breaking into this invitation/story game, find a teacher, anyone who's 
done it before, and share their stories a bit until someone lets us do you 
first one.  The first time I tried to open space, the (Catholic church) 
organizers were doubtful.  I told them stories I'd heard from you and others.  
Still doubtful, as those stories were about AT and other strange places, I 
found a 68-year old nun you'd trained to tell her stories, who assured them 
that "Catholics can indeed do this."  And I was on my way.  

 

>From the standpoint of storytelling, OS is self-certifying.  Better to tell a 
>good story about "how I did it somewhere before" than tell a story or wave a 
>piece of paper that says "i paid for a training and so-and-so says i know what 
>i'm doing."  And getting started, better to rely on others' stories, because 
>we still need to be able to tell them in a way that encourages trust.  We 
>shape their stories into our own story of what's possible in this new 
>situation.  If, when, we succeed, we have been certified by our sponsors, 
>clients, organizers, colleagues.  These people can't outsource their work to 
>an OS certification body, they need to investigate the would-be 
>facilitator/leader for themselves, listen to and test and join the stories 
>that the aspiring facilitator can tell, and decide for themselves if this can 
>work for them.  Then they certify to the community that this event is worth 
>attending.  Then the facilitator certifies to the group that they are worth 
>listening to, and following.  It's all a very circular process in some ways.

 

It's also linear, so I want to put a plug in for "lineage."  It matters to me, 
and has mattered to some clients perhaps along my way, that I have spent time 
learning and practicing with Harrison and some of his oldest students.  They 
haven't necessarily met these folks, but they know some of their stories from 
me and they know that I know these people.  Community and a line of 
storytelling matters.  When I've sat with Tibetans teachers, even very high 
lamas like Dalai Lama, they typically tell you right up front, "This is not my 
teaching I'm going to give you, this is what I got from my teacher, who got it 
from his teacher, who got it from her teacher..."  This kind of expanding 
storytelling lineage is what allows for the wild diversification of practice 
without a loss of potency.  In this way, each branch of the teaching is an 
experiment, a test, in community, that can succeed or fail on its own.  The 
buddhists generally draw this as a lineage tree, with the root teacher at the 
bottom, rather than a hierarchy with a certify chief or council at the top.  
Some branches might prove weak and fail, but that's okay.  There are still many 
other connections to the root.

 

There is no need to certify practice, only to keep telling stories about our 
connections to the root teacher and story.  At this point, Harrison has been 
certified as root teacher by Berrett-Koehler, but that came many years after he 
was certified by a community of practitioners who read the book where he 
self-certified his own experiences with OS, where he told his own stories and 
invited others to try them with and without him.  

 

So what we really need to do is keep going back to that root practice, shared 
right up in the introduction to the user's guide, simply and profoundly:  Try 
this this thing.  See what happens.  Tell the story.  Try it again and see if 
you can do it better.  Everything that comes after that in the user's guide is 
just one story of how it might work.

 

In this way, the answer to Jake's question to MMP a couple messages ago, about 
when does the length of the OS meeting get determined, the answer would be 
"before the event begins" in a thousand different stories about how/why/when 
the sponsors determined, with the facilitator (or not!) how long it should 
be... AND... it would be the same story for every single OS event all of us 
have ever facilitated... the duration was ultimately, i.e. in the end, 
determined by t

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Michael Herman via OSList]

This reminds me of something else, Marai, that might I left out of my
previous response to Mark's question...

What is an new, uncertified, would-be, wanna-be facilitator to do about
cracking into this game?

I would say they should do just what you have done here, Marai, to tell
their own story... When I first found this "thing" I was... and there will
be all kinds of connections in that... "I was up late trying to think of
how to solve this community/organizational/technical/leadership/whatever
sort of problem or issue and i stumbled on this idea..."  and then anywhere
it goes, anything that made me think it might work "here" is the story I
can immediately and naturally tell my colleagues.  If they see it, we can
proceed.  If now, well it might not be time.

Alternatively, there is also the scenario where I stumble upon this OS
thing and I am the decision-maker, I am the one who could write the invite
and bring people together around the story/theme that is most important to
me.  So I go straight to the people I know and ask them to join me, to
address this issue that I think we might all care about.  This is even
better than the first scenario, because it goes straight to action, no
talking about process and design... just invite and get to work.  And in
this case, the "story" I tell is also same as yours, Marai.  It's still
what I call, "the story of how I/we got here."

And that is a story that anyone can tell.  Every time I work with a
leader/sponsor, I let them know they have three minutes (this thanks to
MMP, but that's another story) to welcome and address the people who've
gathered.  This "3-mins" always piques their curiosity and many think I
must have something very specific I want them to do, given that I know so
specifically how long is needed.  And I always suggest the same thing:
"simply tell the story of how we got here."

Sometimes that's the history of the company.   Sometimes it's the history
of the issue, or the journey the organizing committee traveled in choosing
this crazy way of meeting.  Sometimes it's even been how we traveled to
this conference, as 1/3 of the group was delayed by a snowstorm.  But it
always ends up being grounded in some purpose.  We always find the
organizing impetus in the chaos of the journey.

And then, when we make the agenda and everyone breaks out into the corners
of the room, without any instruction, the natural thing for each convener
to do is begin with something like, "Well, I guess we should start... Maybe
I will tell you something about how I got to writing these words in my
topic ..." and then the group directly or indirectly ends up going around
and others share their stories of how they got to thinking this issue was
important and how they decided to join this breakout and what they are
hoping might happen as a result.

And this is why I think OS is self-certifying, because it's always only
ever been about each of us certifying our own story, in the context of
working community.



--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)

http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org




On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 12:24 PM Marai Kiele via OSList <
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

>
> Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to discover.
>
>
> Which I neither believe nor agree to, Paul.
>
> If it only took one minute to explain, wouldn’t this whole list, all of
> Harrison’s books, thousands of peoples postings, conversations, training
> materials etc all be totally obsolete?
> Why would we even have any further conversation about it?
>
> *
>
> In 2002, when first I read about OST for the first time, I „got“ it, on a
> deep spiritual level.
> Half a year later I went to my first OST, which happened to be a full 2,5
> days exposure.
> I was thoroughly impacted.
>
> Afterwards, I knew that I wanted to not only „use“ OST as a process, but I
> acknowledged it as a way of living.
> And I also knew I was setting myself up for quite a journey.
>
> I learned about practicalities of setting up OST with small and large
> numbers of people, and later in online settings.
> I learned about helping a group of people to discover a burning theme.
> About when to use it and when not.
> About presence and holding space.
> About becoming an embodiment of „Whatever happens…“ which to me is quit
> different than just declaring the principle, but not living it
> And so much more...
>
> Especially I learned about the difference of using OST as a one-time event
> (conference / annual meeting …) or within a long term project / an
> organisation.
>
> To me, that difference is like having one deep conversation on the train
> with a stranger (easy, at least for me)
> OR
> building a long-term relationship, really getting to know another, on good
> days and bad days, moving through conflict, evolving together over time
> (not so easy, at least not for me)
>
> Two quite different endeavours.
>
> Not something to learn within only one minute.
> But 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Michael Herman via OSList]

ying to capture and encase what Harrison and and few thousand other
> people have let loose on the world:
>
>
> https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812861/jewish/A-Pillow-Full-of-Feathers.htm
>
> Enjoy.  I love a good parable.
>
> Chris
>
> On Aug 14, 2019, at 10:24 AM, Harrison Owen via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> Actually, I beg to differ. As one who has been in the Open Space game as
> long as anyone, I suppose – the whole possibility of certification (or
> whatever, by which ever name) is a) oxymoronic, b) technically dubious (I
> can’t imagine how you would actually do it), and strategically a bad play.
> Teaching/certifying Open Space is rather like certifying breathing … a
> natural activity which comes with our existence. It is true that some
> people learn to do it (breathing) better … Olympic Athletes for example …
> but it really is a natural act. Opening space is a natural act. Some do it
> better than others … but it is what we do. Creating a Certification program
> for enabling that boggles my mind. Right up there with creating a
> “certification program” for being “human.”  B) Technically dubious… Every
> situation is so contextually defined that any criteria for performance
> (certification) would be so limited as to be not useful. Translated that
> would mean something like – would Open Space Certification guarantee that
> the individual would work with equal effectiveness with Afghanis and North
> American White Supremacists? I doubt that, and more than that… it all seems
> to happen very naturally all by itself, has for a number of years … (with
> absolutely NO Program, OST is now a worldwide phenomenon). C) Strategically
> a bad play… Fact is, OST is the control oriented, certification aficionada,
> managers -- worst nightmare.  If it actually did what 30+ years of global
> experience seems to demonstrate that it does… Much if not all of what
> currently is the “lode star” of managerial competence, “CONTROL” … Never
> happened. But we can’t let that secret out. Blow our cover! However, if you
> quietly open space wherever, whenever, however, about what ever… as often
> as you can – Magic does seem to happen. And the truth is ( my truth) is
> that anybody can do it.
>
> ho
>
> *From:* OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *David Osborne
> via OSList
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 14, 2019 12:33 PM
> *To:* World wide Open Space Technology email list
> *Cc:* David Osborne; Mark Carmel
> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this
> conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.
>
> Great thoughtful post Mark. Thanks for stimulating my thinking, reflection
> and imagination.
>
>
> David
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like
> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train
> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time
> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an
> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that
> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down,
> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space
> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world
> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who
> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves
> nice fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do
> matter. Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own
> title and otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their
> self given titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of
> executives and with the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at
> Hong Kong) it makes sense to put some structure to the educational
> credentialing of OSTsters from apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms
> of VISION and MISSION and VALUES and STRATEGY, why is it that we
> facilitators want to apply that same organizational structure for ALL other
> organizations but resist doing the same for OUR work, to create OUR
> organization... What IS our vision...to hope the world magically organizes
> around OST... or to make it happen through a viable 1,000 year vision.  In
> his great book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is spot on to define OST as the
> ONE way for leaders to be a caretaker of the Spirit.  We must not be naive
> to believe that leaders will not crush the Spirit o

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Marai Kiele via OSList]

> Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to discover.

Which I neither believe nor agree to, Paul.

If it only took one minute to explain, wouldn’t this whole list, all of 
Harrison’s books, thousands of peoples postings, conversations, training 
materials etc all be totally obsolete?
Why would we even have any further conversation about it?

*

In 2002, when first I read about OST for the first time, I „got“ it, on a deep 
spiritual level. 
Half a year later I went to my first OST, which happened to be a full 2,5 days 
exposure.
I was thoroughly impacted.

Afterwards, I knew that I wanted to not only „use“ OST as a process, but I 
acknowledged it as a way of living.
And I also knew I was setting myself up for quite a journey. 

I learned about practicalities of setting up OST with small and large numbers 
of people, and later in online settings. 
I learned about helping a group of people to discover a burning theme. 
About when to use it and when not. 
About presence and holding space. 
About becoming an embodiment of „Whatever happens…“ which to me is quit 
different than just declaring the principle, but not living it
And so much more...

Especially I learned about the difference of using OST as a one-time event 
(conference / annual meeting …) or within a long term project / an organisation.

To me, that difference is like having one deep conversation on the train with a 
stranger (easy, at least for me) 
OR
building a long-term relationship, really getting to know another, on good days 
and bad days, moving through conflict, evolving together over time (not so 
easy, at least not for me)

Two quite different endeavours.

Not something to learn within only one minute.
But maybe I am just a very slow learner…

Marai

Joyful Together
Liberating Joy at Work
phone: +49 171-810 7161
www.about.me 

Virtual: Join the monthly
Global Oasis for Emerging Leaders 

In person: Join the OLS in Berlin, Nov 18 - 20, 2019
Open Leadership Symposium Berlin 


> Am 14.08.2019 um 19:38 schrieb paul levy via OSList 
> :
> 
> I'd never certify OST. Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to 
> discover.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Paul Levy
> 
> Paul Levy
> Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker
> 
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2019, 17:05 Chris Corrigan via OSList, 
> mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
> wrote:
> You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity, 
> right? And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic 
> blending of Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering 
> through incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for most 
> of the last 1700 years?
> 
> And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.  
> 
> Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not want 
> or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open space.  
> It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t actually 
> opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care what your 
> credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of were 
> facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared about the 
> participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they took nothing 
> for granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and others.  Some of 
> these people were 14 years old. 
> 
> Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have ever 
> met, too, for the same reasons. 
> 
> Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how I 
> learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you. Resist 
> the devilish temptation to build an empire.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
>> mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
>> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
>> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time 
>> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an 
>> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that 
>> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, 
>> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space 
>> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world 
>> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who 
>> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves nice 
>> fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. 
>> Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own title 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[paul levy via OSList]

I'd never certify OST. Only takes one minute to explain, or one second to
discover.

Best wishes,

Paul Levy

Paul Levy
Writer, facilitator, conversifier and collusion breaker

On Wed, 14 Aug 2019, 17:05 Chris Corrigan via OSList, <
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity,
> right? And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic
> blending of Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering
> through incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for
> most of the last 1700 years?
>
> And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.
>
> Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not
> want or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open
> space.  It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t
> actually opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care
> what your credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of
> were facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared
> about the participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they
> took nothing for granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and
> others.  Some of these people were 14 years old.
>
> Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have
> ever met, too, for the same reasons.
>
> Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how
> I learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you.
> Resist the devilish temptation to build an empire.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like
> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train
> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time
> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an
> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that
> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down,
> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space
> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world
> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who
> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves
> nice fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do
> matter. Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own
> title and otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their
> self given titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of
> executives and with the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at
> Hong Kong) it makes sense to put some structure to the educational
> credentialing of OSTsters from apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms
> of VISION and MISSION and VALUES and STRATEGY, why is it that we
> facilitators want to apply that same organizational structure for ALL other
> organizations but resist doing the same for OUR work, to create OUR
> organization... What IS our vision...to hope the world magically organizes
> around OST... or to make it happen through a viable 1,000 year vision.  In
> his great book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is spot on to define OST as the
> ONE way for leaders to be a caretaker of the Spirit.  We must not be naive
> to believe that leaders will not crush the Spirit once it emerges in Open
> Space. This requires highly advanced training to be able to navigate the
> process over decades of implementation.  ALL great decisions require great
> leadership. If OST ever gets an organization, I hope this idea will be
> considered by its leaders or of course someone else will do it or it will
> not be done. In some ways, or all ways, Harrison has created a new religion
> of Spirit and I hope that an organizational structure WILL be created kinda
> like that other dude who started out with 12 disciples.
> Peace,
> Mark Carmel
>
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 11:03 PM 
> wrote:
>
>> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> oslist-requ...@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> oslist-ow...@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>1. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Chris Kloth)
>>2. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Harrison Owen)
>>3. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Chris Corrigan via OSList]

Inspired by Harrison’s reflections here, I’ll offer one final thought on this 
thread, and then I’m out.  This is a well known story that is often used to 
apply to gossip, but I believe can be applied to the folly of trying to capture 
and encase what Harrison and and few thousand other people have let loose on 
the world:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812861/jewish/A-Pillow-Full-of-Feathers.htm
 
<https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/812861/jewish/A-Pillow-Full-of-Feathers.htm>

Enjoy.  I love a good parable.  

Chris

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 10:24 AM, Harrison Owen via OSList 
>  wrote:
> 
> Actually, I beg to differ. As one who has been in the Open Space game as long 
> as anyone, I suppose – the whole possibility of certification (or whatever, 
> by which ever name) is a) oxymoronic, b) technically dubious (I can’t imagine 
> how you would actually do it), and strategically a bad play. 
> Teaching/certifying Open Space is rather like certifying breathing … a 
> natural activity which comes with our existence. It is true that some people 
> learn to do it (breathing) better … Olympic Athletes for example … but it 
> really is a natural act. Opening space is a natural act. Some do it better 
> than others … but it is what we do. Creating a Certification program for 
> enabling that boggles my mind. Right up there with creating a “certification 
> program” for being “human.”  B) Technically dubious… Every situation is so 
> contextually defined that any criteria for performance (certification) would 
> be so limited as to be not useful. Translated that would mean something like 
> – would Open Space Certification guarantee that the individual would work 
> with equal effectiveness with Afghanis and North American White Supremacists? 
> I doubt that, and more than that… it all seems to happen very naturally all 
> by itself, has for a number of years … (with absolutely NO Program, OST is 
> now a worldwide phenomenon). C) Strategically a bad play… Fact is, OST is the 
> control oriented, certification aficionada, managers -- worst nightmare.  If 
> it actually did what 30+ years of global experience seems to demonstrate that 
> it does… Much if not all of what currently is the “lode star” of managerial 
> competence, “CONTROL” … Never happened. But we can’t let that secret out. 
> Blow our cover! However, if you quietly open space wherever, whenever, 
> however, about what ever… as often as you can – Magic does seem to happen. 
> And the truth is ( my truth) is that anybody can do it. 
>  
> ho
>  
> From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of 
> David Osborne via OSList
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 12:33 PM
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> Cc: David Osborne; Mark Carmel
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this 
> conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.
>  
> Great thoughtful post Mark. Thanks for stimulating my thinking, reflection 
> and imagination. 
>  
> David
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 14, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
> mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>> 
> wrote:
> 
>> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
>> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
>> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time 
>> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an 
>> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that 
>> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, 
>> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space 
>> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world 
>> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who 
>> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves nice 
>> fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. 
>> Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own title and 
>> otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given 
>> titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and with 
>> the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it makes 
>> sense to put some structure to the educational credentialing of OSTsters 
>> from apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and MISSION and 
>> VALUES and STRATEGY, why is it that we facilitators want to apply that same 
>> organizational structure for ALL other organizations but resist doing the 
>> same for OUR work, to creat

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Harrison Owen via OSList]

Actually, I beg to differ. As one who has been in the Open Space game as long 
as anyone, I suppose – the whole possibility of certification (or whatever, by 
which ever name) is a) oxymoronic, b) technically dubious (I can’t imagine how 
you would actually do it), and strategically a bad play. Teaching/certifying 
Open Space is rather like certifying breathing … a natural activity which comes 
with our existence. It is true that some people learn to do it (breathing) 
better … Olympic Athletes for example … but it really is a natural act. Opening 
space is a natural act. Some do it better than others … but it is what we do. 
Creating a Certification program for enabling that boggles my mind. Right up 
there with creating a “certification program” for being “human.”  B) 
Technically dubious… Every situation is so contextually defined that any 
criteria for performance (certification) would be so limited as to be not 
useful. Translated that would mean something like – would Open Space 
Certification guarantee that the individual would work with equal effectiveness 
with Afghanis and North American White Supremacists? I doubt that, and more 
than that… it all seems to happen very naturally all by itself, has for a 
number of years … (with absolutely NO Program, OST is now a worldwide 
phenomenon). C) Strategically a bad play… Fact is, OST is the control oriented, 
certification aficionada, managers -- worst nightmare.  If it actually did what 
30+ years of global experience seems to demonstrate that it does… Much if not 
all of what currently is the “lode star” of managerial competence, “CONTROL” … 
Never happened. But we can’t let that secret out. Blow our cover! However, if 
you quietly open space wherever, whenever, however, about what ever… as often 
as you can – Magic does seem to happen. And the truth is ( my truth) is that 
anybody can do it. 

 

ho

 

From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of David 
Osborne via OSList
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 12:33 PM
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
Cc: David Osborne; Mark Carmel
Subject: Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this 
conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

 

Great thoughtful post Mark. Thanks for stimulating my thinking, reflection and 
imagination. 

 

David

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 14, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
 wrote:

Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time as 
Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an invitation 
and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that from the most 
seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, saying...we 
discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space facilitator 
normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world has evolved 
into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who spoke the 
strongest against certification have already given themselves nice fancy 
titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. Right now 
open space facilitators must give themself their own title and otherwise have 
no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given titles. When you 
talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and with the retaliation 
nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it makes sense to put some 
structure to the educational credentialing of OSTsters from apprentice  to 
Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and MISSION and VALUES and STRATEGY, why 
is it that we facilitators want to apply that same organizational structure for 
ALL other organizations but resist doing the same for OUR work, to create OUR 
organization... What IS our vision...to hope the world magically organizes 
around OST... or to make it happen through a viable 1,000 year vision.  In his 
great book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is spot on to define OST as the ONE way 
for leaders to be a caretaker of the Spirit.  We must not be naive to believe 
that leaders will not crush the Spirit once it emerges in Open Space. This 
requires highly advanced training to be able to navigate the process over 
decades of implementation.  ALL great decisions require great leadership. If 
OST ever gets an organization, I hope this idea will be considered by its 
leaders or of course someone else will do it or it will not be done. In some 
ways, or all ways, Harrison has created a new religion of Spirit and I hope 
that an organizational structure WILL be created kinda like that other dude who 
started out with 12 disciples. 

Peace,

Mark Carmel

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 11:03 PM  wrote:

Send OSList mailing list submissions to
oslist@lists.openspacetech.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Mark Carmel via OSList]

Chris, thank you for your response.  However, an Empire is defined as an
authoritarian organization of countries, or people, under single rule like
the Roman empire. The chuch's first rule of becoming certified as high
priest is that women are not allowed In.  We see how that worked out...
That is not OS and is not what I recommend. So please do not misunderstand
my intent. I am not calling for empire building or authoritarianism, but
calling for organization of an Educational Institute to train and educate
those who facilitate OST in the world of empire building WE all live in. If
we leave it to mother nature to do it out of Spirit alone we could be
waiting another 4,000 years.  How to prepare facilitators and participants
to face the inevitable pushback from their own leaders (like now) or from
leaders of empires once raw honesty is put out there is an advanced skill
set.  One that will help or hurt outcomes. Chris, you are spot on to invoke
the Devil. Because the Devil always attacks honesty that exposes the
hidden, dishonest agendas of leaders who proudly open space only to crush
those who are Too honest for their liking. Therein lies a significant
learning moment to train facilitators in the ability to discern
authenticity in the leadership before engaging. Dishonesty has become the
new trend in management and leadership. Just look at the state of American
politics and media coverage of it. The number one contraindiction as HO
aptly defines it, in my experience is dishonest leadership. This must be
discerned first, as only one of the teaching lessons for all future
facilitators. Otherwise good, honest participants and their facilitators
are given up to the devilish empire builders you describe.  Especially in
the great
US of A democracy that has become Retaliation Nation.
Thanks again Chris!
Miss you having not seen you since Dulles.
Peace!
MC

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 10:05 AM Chris Corrigan 
wrote:

> You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity,
> right? And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic
> blending of Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering
> through incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for
> most of the last 1700 years?
>
> And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.
>
> Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not
> want or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open
> space.  It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t
> actually opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care
> what your credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of
> were facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared
> about the participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they
> took nothing for granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and
> others.  Some of these people were 14 years old.
>
> Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have
> ever met, too, for the same reasons.
>
> Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how
> I learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you.
> Resist the devilish temptation to build an empire.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like
> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train
> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time
> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an
> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that
> from the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down,
> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space
> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world
> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who
> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves
> nice fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do
> matter. Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own
> title and otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their
> self given titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of
> executives and with the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at
> Hong Kong) it makes sense to put some structure to the educational
> credentialing of OSTsters from apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms
> of VISION and MISSION and VALUES and STRATEGY, why is it that we
> facilitators want to apply that same organizational structure for ALL other
> organizations but resist doing the same for OUR work, to create OUR
> organization... What IS our vision...to hope the world magically organizes
> around 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[David Osborne via OSList]

Great thoughtful post Mark. Thanks for stimulating my thinking, reflection and 
imagination. 

David

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
>  wrote:
> 
> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time 
> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an 
> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that from 
> the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, 
> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space 
> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world 
> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who 
> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves nice 
> fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. 
> Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own title and 
> otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given 
> titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and with 
> the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it makes 
> sense to put some structure to the educational credentialing of OSTsters from 
> apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and MISSION and VALUES 
> and STRATEGY, why is it that we facilitators want to apply that same 
> organizational structure for ALL other organizations but resist doing the 
> same for OUR work, to create OUR organization... What IS our vision...to hope 
> the world magically organizes around OST... or to make it happen through a 
> viable 1,000 year vision.  In his great book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is 
> spot on to define OST as the ONE way for leaders to be a caretaker of the 
> Spirit.  We must not be naive to believe that leaders will not crush the 
> Spirit once it emerges in Open Space. This requires highly advanced training 
> to be able to navigate the process over decades of implementation.  ALL great 
> decisions require great leadership. If OST ever gets an organization, I hope 
> this idea will be considered by its leaders or of course someone else will do 
> it or it will not be done. In some ways, or all ways, Harrison has created a 
> new religion of Spirit and I hope that an organizational structure WILL be 
> created kinda like that other dude who started out with 12 disciples. 
> Peace,
> Mark Carmel
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 11:03 PM  
>> wrote:
>> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> oslist-requ...@lists.openspacetech.org
>> 
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> oslist-ow...@lists.openspacetech.org
>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>> 
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>1. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Chris Kloth)
>>2. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Harrison Owen)
>>3. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Peggy Holman)
>>4. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Jake Yeager)
>>5. Open Space Hangout! Tues Aug 13, 12 PM EDT! (Tony Budak)
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 17:25:41 -0400
>> From: Chris Kloth 
>> To: jacob.yea...@gmail.com
>> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning?
>> Message-ID:
>> <20190812172541.20436ug8j3rp3...@tcsso-mail2.inetuhosted.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed"
>> 
>> Jake, I hope to get back to you by this weekend. I am in the middle of  
>> a project with Prosecutor Impact (see Adam Foss' Ted Talk) that is  
>> pretty consuming. I know I have the file somewhere.
>> 
>> That said, Michael's comment about what's on the wall triggered a  
>> powerful memory. When I got to my site the night before we were to  
>> start a very resistant top executive made it clear to me that he  
>> thought this approach a ridiculous waste of time. He also made it  
>> clear that he was sure labor issues over wages and other workplace  
>> issues would probably come up and that there was no way these could be  
>> addressed in such a setting.
>> 
>> I thanked him for sharing his concerns and observed that labor issues  
>> would probably come up if it mattered to those in the room and  
>> requested that he trust me that it would be 

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Harrison Owen via OSList]

YES!

 

ho

 

From: OSList [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of Chris 
Corrigan via OSList
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 12:06 PM
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
Cc: Chris Corrigan; Mark Carmel
Subject: Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this 
conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

 

You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity, right? 
And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic blending of 
Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering through 
incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for most of the 
last 1700 years?

 

And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.  

 

Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not want 
or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open space.  
It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t actually 
opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care what your 
credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of were 
facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared about the 
participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they took nothing for 
granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and others.  Some of these 
people were 14 years old. 

 

Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have ever 
met, too, for the same reasons. 

 

Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how I 
learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you. Resist 
the devilish temptation to build an empire.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 





On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
 wrote:

 

Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time as 
Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an invitation 
and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that from the most 
seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, saying...we 
discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space facilitator 
normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world has evolved 
into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who spoke the 
strongest against certification have already given themselves nice fancy 
titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. Right now 
open space facilitators must give themself their own title and otherwise have 
no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given titles. When you 
talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and with the retaliation 
nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it makes sense to put some 
structure to the educational credentialing of OSTsters from apprentice  to 
Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and MISSION and VALUES and STRATEGY, why 
is it that we facilitators want to apply that same organizational structure for 
ALL other organizations but resist doing the same for OUR work, to create OUR 
organization... What IS our vision...to hope the world magically organizes 
around OST... or to make it happen through a viable 1,000 year vision.  In his 
great book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is spot on to define OST as the ONE way 
for leaders to be a caretaker of the Spirit.  We must not be naive to believe 
that leaders will not crush the Spirit once it emerges in Open Space. This 
requires highly advanced training to be able to navigate the process over 
decades of implementation.  ALL great decisions require great leadership. If 
OST ever gets an organization, I hope this idea will be considered by its 
leaders or of course someone else will do it or it will not be done. In some 
ways, or all ways, Harrison has created a new religion of Spirit and I hope 
that an organizational structure WILL be created kinda like that other dude who 
started out with 12 disciples. 

Peace,

Mark Carmel

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 11:03 PM  wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Chris Kloth)
   2. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Harrison Owen)
   3. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Peggy Holman

Re: [OSList] Why CERTIFICATION makes sense considering this conversation on Mission, Vision Strategy Plans, etc.

[Chris Corrigan via OSList]

You do realize that Jesus never certified practitioners of Christianity, right? 
And that subsequent attempts to do so basically created a toxic blending of 
Church and Empire that contributed to mass amounts of suffering through 
incredibly toxic and psychopathic uses of power and control for most of the 
last 1700 years?

And I say that as a Christian who works with churches.  

Mark, just open space.  That’s what the world wants more of. It does not want 
or need more  people running around saying they are certified to open space.  
It truly doesn’t care. Your credentials mean nothing if you aren’t actually 
opening space.  And if you are opening space, no one will care what your 
credentials are.  The best OST meetings I’ve ever been a part of were 
facilitated by people who had never done them before.  They cared about the 
participants, they took care to follow the instructions, they took nothing for 
granted, and they learned a lot about themselves and others.  Some of these 
people were 14 years old. 

Coincidently, some of these people are also the best Christians I have ever 
met, too, for the same reasons. 

Just do the work and share your learning and get better at it. That’s how I 
learned, that’s how I support others and that’s my invitation to you. Resist 
the devilish temptation to build an empire.

Chris





> On Aug 14, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList 
>  wrote:
> 
> Fascinating conversation. This is exactly why we need a certification-like 
> program and an organizational structure for the future if we want to train 
> people in the finer points of sustaining open space interventions over time 
> as Chris has done. There is a lot more to it than just throwing out an 
> invitation and opening up the market place. It is interesting to me that from 
> the most seasoned open space masters the idea was instantly shot down, 
> saying...we discussed that already... Now that is not what an open space 
> facilitator normally does right? Shoot down other people's ideas. The world 
> has evolved into one that respects credentials. Interestingly the ones who 
> spoke the strongest against certification have already given themselves nice 
> fancy titles. Which is wonderful.  Because credentials really do matter. 
> Right now open space facilitators must give themself their own title and 
> otherwise have no backing whatsoever to lend credibility to their self given 
> titles. When you talk about overcoming the resistance of executives and with 
> the retaliation nation nature of things now (look at Hong Kong) it makes 
> sense to put some structure to the educational credentialing of OSTsters from 
> apprentice  to Master to mentor.  In terms of VISION and MISSION and VALUES 
> and STRATEGY, why is it that we facilitators want to apply that same 
> organizational structure for ALL other organizations but resist doing the 
> same for OUR work, to create OUR organization... What IS our vision...to hope 
> the world magically organizes around OST... or to make it happen through a 
> viable 1,000 year vision.  In his great book, Leadership Is,  Harrison is 
> spot on to define OST as the ONE way for leaders to be a caretaker of the 
> Spirit.  We must not be naive to believe that leaders will not crush the 
> Spirit once it emerges in Open Space. This requires highly advanced training 
> to be able to navigate the process over decades of implementation.  ALL great 
> decisions require great leadership. If OST ever gets an organization, I hope 
> this idea will be considered by its leaders or of course someone else will do 
> it or it will not be done. In some ways, or all ways, Harrison has created a 
> new religion of Spirit and I hope that an organizational structure WILL be 
> created kinda like that other dude who started out with 12 disciples. 
> Peace,
> Mark Carmel
> 
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 11:03 PM  > wrote:
> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org 
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org 
> 
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> oslist-requ...@lists.openspacetech.org 
> 
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> oslist-ow...@lists.openspacetech.org 
> 
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Chris Kloth)
>2. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Harrison Owen)
>3. Re: OST for Mission/Vision and Strategic Planning? (Peggy Holman)
>4. Re: OST for