[ozmidwifery] Fw: Joyous Birth Big sigh :) This is lovely
Subject: Joyous Birth Big sigh :) This is lovely http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw104008_20040910.htmGreat, short homebirth story! Love Abby Every woman and every baby and every family have the right to Joyous Birth! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/joyousbirth/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Victorian Home Birth Stats
Hi Katrina, MIPPs have just received their copies in the mail of the 2003 stats. Is there anything I can help you with or copy for you? Andrea Bilcliff - Original Message - Hi, can someone please email me or point me in the direction of the most recent Vic Homebirth Stats? Many thanks, Katrina -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] antenatal notes template
Kirsten, Sorry for taking so long to answer but I havent seen any other replies. I just made up a card on my computer basing it on locally used ones that are quite good. The woman keep these. My antenatal notes I just do on my computer and is a copy of the same page and then I write contemporous notes as I need. Make up your own on your computer and then you can review and change them to suit your local need and make the language on them woman friendly. Is this what you wanted to know Andrea Quanchi On Friday, September 10, 2004, at 11:29 AM, Callum Kirsten wrote: Hi, can i get advice please regarding antenatal notes? Are there any independents out there who make their own version of the hand held notes? I am looking at making my own, partly due to having to for uni, but also for myself eventually when i'm independent. Or any ideas on where to find really good ones? Kirsten student midwife Darwin ~~~start life with a midwife~~~
[ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc
I am extraordinarily disappointed that for some women the devotion to thecare and wellbeing of women extends only to those who 'fit'. I accept anywoman's right to belief in how to manage their own lifestyle and the choicestherein, therefore I think it is absolutely okay to disagree withabortions. However using language of violence (belonging usually to thedomain of men) to propagate a viewpoint through its emotive intent isnarrow-minded, shortsighted and I feel illustrates the simplistic socialviewpoint of women and the framework that enables the judgement of theirsupposed choices. There is no room in this for compassion or humanity. Asthe saying goes you have to walk a mile in a persons shoes before you shoulddeem to understand therefore judge them.It is (disappointedly) interesting that violent language is the very natureof the obstetric reasons for intervening in birth i.e. forceps to stop thebaby being battered against the rigid wall of the perineum, uncontrolledmutilating tears as a reason to cut a woman's vagina and perineum, etc etc.There is no way in my mind that it is women centered or woman focused todescribe the complexity of the choices; reasons and emotions around abortionin such simplistic demeaning and judgmental ways.Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous!Is it better to go back to forcing women who still have little sexualautonomy in todays society to birth children that for what ever reason arenot 'wanted' or whom will place a particular burden on the woman. We canalways say yes but I would do ..., hwoever it is not you or me, it is noones place to make such chocies and live with those choices but the womanherslef. Violence is perpetrated against women and children all over theworld, lets not equate abortion in this, lets make the world a better placefor women and children to be born into and to live.Like anything in life there are no easy answers"This is a complicated and muddled world where unplanned pregnancues may bewanted, where wanted children may emerge from unwnated pregnancues, wherethe offspring of wanted pregnancies may be rejected, where infatuation withinfants grows cold and where children may be wanted soley to meet theirparents pathological needs." Juliet Cheetham 1977I think if we can sit back and say the world is good, women are truly ableto make choices that do not stem from the social and cultural contexts' ofoppression; sexual and generded inequality and expolitation, patricahialinterest etc etc then maybe we can sit in judgement of drug addicts, andchoices such as abortion, until then vioence is perpetrated through languageand judegment. Unfortunatly it is, as it seems always, women who bear thebrunt, blame and gulit of peoples belief that they know better and sit injudgement.I have had to make hard choices in my career - do I really want to be withwomEn or not. It means I often have to leave my own sense of morality andvalues where they belong in my private domain, this does not mean that I amcompromised, it does mean I can help far more women and maybe leave a littleof me with them...For anyone who knows me knows I love quotes so I will finish here with acouple...your pain is the breaking of the shell that enclosesyour undserstanding. Kahil Gibranmen are disturbed not by thingsthat happenbut by their opinion of the thingsthat happen EpictetusBefore enlightenmentchopping woodcarrying waterAfter enlightenmentchopping woodcarrying water Zen ProverbBelinda
Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc
More quotes and generosity of spirit thank you Denise Hynd "Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever have." Margaret Mead - Original Message - From: Belinda Maier To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:05 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc I am extraordinarily disappointed that for some women the devotion to thecare and wellbeing of women extends only to those who 'fit'. I accept anywoman's right to belief in how to manage their own lifestyle and the choicestherein, therefore I think it is absolutely okay to disagree withabortions. However using language of violence (belonging usually to thedomain of men) to propagate a viewpoint through its emotive intent isnarrow-minded, shortsighted and I feel illustrates the simplistic socialviewpoint of women and the framework that enables the judgement of theirsupposed choices. There is no room in this for compassion or humanity. Asthe saying goes you have to walk a mile in a persons shoes before you shoulddeem to understand therefore judge them.It is (disappointedly) interesting that violent language is the very natureof the obstetric reasons for intervening in birth i.e. forceps to stop thebaby being battered against the rigid wall of the perineum, uncontrolledmutilating tears as a reason to cut a woman's vagina and perineum, etc etc.There is no way in my mind that it is women centered or woman focused todescribe the complexity of the choices; reasons and emotions around abortionin such simplistic demeaning and judgmental ways.Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous!Is it better to go back to forcing women who still have little sexualautonomy in todays society to birth children that for what ever reason arenot 'wanted' or whom will place a particular burden on the woman. We canalways say yes but I would do ..., hwoever it is not you or me, it is noones place to make such chocies and live with those choices but the womanherslef. Violence is perpetrated against women and children all over theworld, lets not equate abortion in this, lets make the world a better placefor women and children to be born into and to live.Like anything in life there are no easy answers"This is a complicated and muddled world where unplanned pregnancues may bewanted, where wanted children may emerge from unwnated pregnancues, wherethe offspring of wanted pregnancies may be rejected, where infatuation withinfants grows cold and where children may be wanted soley to meet theirparents pathological needs." Juliet Cheetham 1977I think if we can sit back and say the world is good, women are truly ableto make choices that do not stem from the social and cultural contexts' ofoppression; sexual and generded inequality and expolitation, patricahialinterest etc etc then maybe we can sit in judgement of drug addicts, andchoices such as abortion, until then vioence is perpetrated through languageand judegment. Unfortunatly it is, as it seems always, women who bear thebrunt, blame and gulit of peoples belief that they know better and sit injudgement.I have had to make hard choices in my career - do I really want to be withwomEn or not. It means I often have to leave my own sense of morality andvalues where they belong in my private domain, this does not mean that I amcompromised, it does mean I can help far more women and maybe leave a littleof me with them...For anyone who knows me knows I love quotes so I will finish here with acouple...your pain is the breaking of the shell that enclosesyour undserstanding. Kahil Gibranmen are disturbed not by thingsthat happenbut by their opinion of the thingsthat happen EpictetusBefore enlightenmentchopping woodcarrying waterAfter enlightenmentchopping woodcarrying water Zen ProverbBelinda
Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc
Violence is perpetrated against women and children all over the world, lets not equate abortion in this, lets make the world a better place for women and children to be born into and to live. I'm not sure that I quite understand what you are saying, but I think you are saying that we shouldn't use violent sayings when talking about abortion. If that is correct then I would like to ask how you would describe it, if not violent. I believe that abortion is incredibly violent toward the unborn baby eg.dismemberment, limbs being torn fromthe body, being cut up and sucked out through a tube in a process called "menstrual extraction", "suction aspiration" tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded,poisoning-which we all know causes extreme pain in most cases,etc etc, I am not sure how else you can describe these things. They are definitely not loving and kind and gentle. What about the use of aborted babies bodies for research, is that too not violent? Let's face facts it is the killing of a life, life in its simplest most innocent form, how can anyone deny that. Even someone that is pro-abortion, I imagine, would have a hard time denying that those are all violent acts. It can also be very violent to women, physically and emotionally. It is a completely unnatural event, in most cases, and thus immeadiately creates risks. Having a vaccum stuck inside you to suck out the "contents", that you helped create, out of your uterus can of course pose a risk.Different procedures offer different risks, but here is a short list of damage that can be done -hemorrhage, infection, embolism, death, uterine perforation, cervical lacerations, pelvic inflammatory disease, increased risks of breast cancer, ectopic pregnancy, uterine damage etc etc. "National statistics on abortion show that 10% of women who undergo this procedure suffer from immediate complications. (1) Over one hundred different complications have been associated with induced abortion. Minor complications include: infections, bleeding, fevers, chronic abdominal pain, gastro-intestinal disturbances, vomiting, and Rh Sensitization. The nine most common major complications are infection, excessive bleeding, embolism, ripping or perforation of the uterus, anesthesia complications, convulsions, hemorrhage, cervical injury and endotoxic shock. (2) Can you imagine what an honest warning label might read like for such a procedure?! " Mary Cunningham Agee How can we honestly say that abortion is not a violent act, against a mother and her child. these are only the physical risks, but many women carry emotionalscars all their lives. Just as we see women very uninformed of the risks of intervention during childbirth, we too see the very uninformed choice of abortion. By trying to not see the reality of abortion procedures ie. how violent they are, are we not exactly the same as the doctors that gloss over intervention in pregnancy and childbirth? This is a quote from www.plannedparenthood.org and the kind of glossing over I am talking about A tube is inserted through the cervix into the uterus. A hand-held instrument gently empties the uterus. Please someone tell me where is the description of the "hand-held" instrument? Where is the description of what happens to the baby? How at all does this empower women in their choices? I wasn't going to enter my own thoughts into this but I am sick of women being told BS and am tired of people trying to see abortion as a "gentle" and loving thing to do for an unwanted baby. How many women do you think would really have an abortion if they could see the reality of what goes on, from what the drugs administered are doing to their bodies, to the baby being ripped apart, to a part of the being taken away? I appreciate Jeanine as she is talking about real empowerment. Encouraging women to take control of their fertility and their bodies rather than being fed BS about their "choices" ( obviously if a woman is raped then it is not her choice, but she should still be told about the realities of her choices. Some women that are raped feel like they get raped a second time if they have an abortion. I can't find the link but I think it was something like 1% of abortions in Australia are because of rape.) I find it so distressing that abortion is used as a general form of "birth control". Apparently "98% of abortions are for convenience (these reasons do not include medical purposes, rape or foetal deformities)." This email has bevome very long, so I will send a seperate one for other distressing facts about abortion. Love Abby
[ozmidwifery] Abortion Facts in Australia
Here are some, what I find, disturbing facts about abortion in Australia. -There are 100,000 abortions in Australia each year.-There are 800 abortions each week in NSW - approximately 40,000 annually.-There are 250,000 live births each year in Australia, which means that there are 2 aborted babies for every 5 born.-Worldwide, there are about 60-70 million abortions being carried out.-The average age of an aborted baby is 8 weeks.-There were only 40 adoptions in NSW in 1997.-Abortion is a multi-million dollar industry subsidised by the Australian taxpayer.-The top five abortionists in NSW earn $1.5 million per year from Medicare alone.-In Australia we now have a low birth rate (zero population growth), a high abortion rate and an aging population.-98% of abortions are for convenience (these reasons do not include medical purposes, rape or foetal deformities).In South Australia only 1% of abortions are claimed for medical grounds.Many women who have had abortions suffer from a condition known as Post-abortion syndrome No wonder abortionists are so keen to keep abortion going, they sure do reap the "benefits". Love Abby
Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc
Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous! I just can't get this comment out of my head. It is so ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat because they don't want to harm or killan animal, yet they will willfully, and by choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this incredibly ridiculous. Abby
[ozmidwifery] Fw: Joyous Birth Fw: [birthnews] FW: raffle to support Jeanine Parvati Baker, birthkeeper
-Original Message-From: Sarah J Buckley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Monday, 13 September 2004 8:12 PMTo: Sarah BuckleySubject: raffle to support Jeanine Parvati Baker, birthkeeper Dear friends I am organising the Australian branch of a US raffle to benefit my friendand mentorJeanine Parvati Baker. Jeanine Parvati Bakerhas been abirthkeeper, as she callsherself,for over 30 years.Jeanine Parvati wrote the first-ever book on prenatalyoga in 1972 (Prenatal Yoga and Natural Childbirth,recently revised)and has beenattending women as a lay midwife in her home state of Utah for a generation.A mother of 6 and grandmother, sheis also an accomplished herbalist (as her book Hygeia, A Woman's Herbal shows); astrologer and yogini. She also co-wrote the awesome Conscious Conception, one of my favourite-ever books.Jeanine Parvati coined the phrase Healing birth is healing the earth, and her life has been dedicated to this work foreveryoneon our planet. JP visited Australia in 1996, where she touched many lives and families, including mine. For more about JP and her writing, see her luscious site www.birthkeeper.com. Jeanine Parvati has been seriously unwell this year, and unable to work. A raffle has been organised by her friends, based in the US, with first prizeof a gorgeous king-size quilt,named Parvati's paradise. For a vision of the quilt, and more info about the raffle, see http://sparklinglotusink.com/PPQP.html(NB ticket prices on this site are in US Dollars). As well as the quilt, ancillary prizes include a copy of the book Lotus Birth (withchapter byJP - see http://www.acegraphics.com.au/product/book/bk663.html) and, for Australian supporters, three copies of the2005 Bellies Bots, Boobs and Babes calendars, valued at $15 each.(See http://www.cybercoast.com.au/homebirth/calendar.htm) Also an additional ancillary prize -- JP is donating her newest collection of writing, THE POSSIBLE MOTHER BOOKLET valued at $25AUS-- a compilation of her columns2002-2004 for the U.K. magazine, TheMother, see http://www.birthkeeper.com/Giftshop.html Tickets are as follows, in Australian dollars $5 (minimum purchase) for 4 tickets $10 for 8 tickets $15 for 13 tickets $20 for18 tickets $40 for 38 tickets $50 for 50 tickets Please deposit the money into my account (AUSTRALIA ONLY) , as below, and send me the receipt, along with your name,address, email andphone number. I will check and reply to you, send your details to the US where ticket numbers will be assigned to you, and forward the money toJPB's Australian account. She will draw the raffle personally on November 26th. Commonwealth Bank Account number BSB 063151 10056443 name- Sarah J Buckley Alternatively, you can make a cheque out to Jeanine A Baker and post to me at the address below. FOR THOSE IN THEUS, see the website http://sparklinglotusink.com/PPQP.html to buy tickets. Pleasehelp to spread the word for JP, our living treasure, and email on to your friends and contacts. Thank you for your support Blessings Sarah Sarah J Buckley245 Sugars RdAnstead, Qld 4070Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]"Healing birth is healing the earth"www.freestone.org/hygieia/additionalpostings.htmlwww.womenofspirit.asn.au/sarahjbuckleywww.birthlove.com/pages/sarahwww.mothering.com/11-0-0/html/11-2-0/ecstatic-birth.shtml Sarah J Buckley245 Sugars RdAnstead, Qld 4070Australia[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]"Healing birth is healing the earth"www.freestone.org/hygieia/additionalpostings.htmlwww.womenofspirit.asn.au/sarahjbuckleywww.birthlove.com/pages/sarahwww.mothering.com/11-0-0/html/11-2-0/ecstatic-birth.shtmlEvery woman and every baby and every family have the right to Joyous Birth! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/joyousbirth/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: drug use in pregnancy
Unfortunately drugs and violence are a fact of life, we see it every day on the TV and in the papers, so it goes without saying that women and children are affected. We need to give these women and children the best possible care, to give them the best possible chance to help them change their lives. Yes, it is very confronting, but as midwives being 'with women', are in the best postion to provide this essential care. We have a service specifically for drug and alcohol dependent women at the hospital I work, and I have had the honour or working with the the two most amazing and dedicated midwives who provide this service. I have also worked as an Independent midwife.so I know what it is like on both sides of the fence.The divide between the women accessing these services is practically insurmountable but equally so, so important. Sally - Original Message - From: Nicole Christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: drug use in pregnancy Thank you Belinda - I too hope that she recieves the extra support you mentioned (and that it is actually available here!) - both ante and post-natally ...for both her AND her baby kindest regards, Nicole ps. I have dreams and aspirations of undertaking the direct entry Bach. of Midwifery at UTS when my 2 little ones are older (at least 4 years away)but would find this kind of thing VERY difficult ...(ie. drug use in pregnancy/violent homes)... - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:22 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re: drug use in pregnancy Dear Nicole, I work at the Royal Women's Hospital in melb and we see a lot of women with drug problems. They are asked in clinic if they smoke/drink or take drugs and they are usually very honest about this. We have a special clinic that look after young Mums and another especially for women with drug problems. They are given extra support and are followed up more thoroughly too. I hope she sees the light now she is pregnant. Take care Belinda. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Are there any Alice Springs midwives out there?
Hi all, Just wondering if any midwives who work at ASH read this mailing list. If so, I'd love to hear from you! I am presently working in the UK but coming to work in Alice Springs early next year. You can contact me off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Claudia Riley. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] West Today
Dear all I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by Geraldine Mellett Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who did not?? Denise Hynd "Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever have." Margaret Mead
[ozmidwifery] West Today
Dear all I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by Geraldine Mellett Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who did not?? Denise Hynd "Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever have." Margaret Mead
Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc
Abby: I don't find it ridiculous that you would say it. Vegetarians are often held to much "higher" expectations than others, but just in case you hadn't noticed they are human too and liable to all such vagaries. Apparently refusing to eat animals or objecting to animal cruelty implies one is on another plane. Only to those who for some reason are offended by such a position. Vegetarians never portray themselves as "perfect". At least not in my experience (always the caveat). As the mother of 3 fabulous vegetarians (all women) and an aspiring one myself (vegetarian that is)I am amazed that you find the incongruities of life amazing. My daughters are vegetarians primarily because they find all life sacred including vegetables, if people photosynthetized they would be far happier, however they don't (and neither so I) and so we eat...vegetables. Already a compromise has been made. Of course we find all human life sacred. However,as the daughters of midwives (my mother was one too) they and I are aware of the disparate lives many people lead including women who choose a vegetarian lifestyle. Truly, noone is immune. As Belinda said very well compassion and non-judgement of others is where we (midwives)must come from. Since my mother was a midwife in the good old days before women had their ever tentative "right" to safe abortions I actually do remember her grief when young healthy women came into hospital with gas gangrene often dying from septic shock. That was violence. Women from all walks of life and philosophies choose abortions for various reasonsbut I have yet to meet one who made the decision lightly or as just another method of birth control. In the women I attend at birth I have yet to notice if previous abortions effected their birth process: I mean as a far asI am aware some such women birth spontaneously and well and othersstruggle trapped by the medicalised nature of their birthing environment: what I am saying is that there does not appear to be either a birthing advantage or disadvantage to having previous abortions. Perhaps we need a retrospective study? I have worked on both sides of the fence so to speak in abortion clinics couselling women pre and postabortion and assisting (though not doing) the procedure. I also work as a midwife.The planned parenthood quote "A tube is inserted through the cervix into the uterus. A hand-held instrument gently empties the uterus" is actually entirely accurate: in a first trimester abortion the uterus is still very small not yet out of the pelvis the procedure has to be physically gentle or the uterus will be perforated. The tube is very small because the cervix does not have to dilate fully. Because of previous experiences some women find any vaginal procedure tantamount to rape this includes a speculum exam for a pap smear, ve's during labour and birth, and most certainly an abortion. Surely if any of these procedures occurs when a woman is objecting then it is exactly that...rape. I personally have not witnessed such an event and have not met a practitioner who would proceed in such circumstance. Sadly, apparentlythis does not mean it has not happened. Of course abortion is NEVER an emotionally or spiritually or psychologically "gentle" procedure. I could go on and on but there is a time limit and I have to go to work. I totally agree with all Belinda and Justine have said. marilyn - Original Message - From: Abby and Toby To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:54 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous! I just can't get this comment out of my head. It is so ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat because they don't want to harm or killan animal, yet they will willfully, and by choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this incredibly ridiculous. Abby
[ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)
Abby and Toby wrote: Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous! I just can't get this comment out of my head. It is so ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat because they don't want to harm or kill an animal, yet they will willfully, and by choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this incredibly ridiculous. As a pro-choice vegan, I actually find that quite offensive. One could argue (as you've raised the issue), it is equally (if not more) ridiculous to claim to be 'pro-life' yet to kill intelligent, sentient animals needlessly for your pleasure because you happen to like the taste of their dead bodies. Being a selectively 'pro-life' omnivore is more than a little hypocritical! Or do some lives matter more than others? And who are we to judge? No-one in Western countries *needs* to consume animal flesh, so the slaughter and cruelty involved in the animal flesh industries is absolutely needless (I do not believe the same of third world countries, where food resources may be scarce and there may be absolute need to consume animal flesh, however). Cruelty and animal abuse for no valid reason whatsoever can never be justified logically, whereas legal abortion certainly can be on numerous grounds (including the social and mental welfare of the woman, the specific situation involving her pregnancy, disabled or deformed fetuses, the avoidance of illegal, unsafe abortion etc.) It should also be pointed out that in Australia, abortion is only legal several weeks before a fetus is medically 'viable'. We are not talking about killing sentient, viable children. We are talking about a procedure much more akin to the removal of unwanted/unviable flesh from a woman's body, to assess it from a purely medical point of view. Any genuine argument against abortion of non-viable fetuses must invariably come from a religious / personal ethics point of view, and is simply not logical. Fortunately, we do not live in a society where the ethics/religious beliefs of a small percentage of Australians dictate the lives of the majority. Women who do not support abortion can simply choose not to have one. But they do not have the right to pass judgement on other women and their rights any more than I, as a vegan, have the right to force the omnivorous majority not to eat animal flesh. Being pro-choice is a compassionate decision - we place the needs of women above the needs of an unborn fetus that is, scientifically and literally speaking, nowhere near as developed as the average pig going to slaughter. Being vegan and pro-choice, I am showing compassion and non-judgement for both women and animals. Being omnivorous and fiercely 'pro-life' is, arguably, being compassionate to neither. You have every right to be pro-choice, but you do not have the right to make decisions for other women, nor do you have the right to pass judgement on women who might have perfectly valid reasons for termination. I do not wish to turn this issue into a huge debate or flame-war, so I will end my post on the note that we all have different beliefs, we all have different views, and we all have different ethics. That is what being part of the Australian community is about. But perhaps if we all showed a little more tolerance for ideas that differ from our own, instead of branding them as 'ridiculous' and trying to shove our own viewpoint down other people's necks, we'd all get along a great deal better. Respect for life - *all* life - must begin with respect for other people and their autonomy. Should anyone wish to continue this discussion, please feel free to email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that we show the courtesy of not bombarding the rest of the list (who may not be interested in this off-topic issue) with emails. Leanne. Abby -- Leanne Veitch Melbourne Product Centre Technical Writer Level 1 594 Elizabeth Street Agent Oriented Software Pty. Ltd. Melbourne VIC 3000 ABN: 98 078 321 589P O Box 639 T: +61 3 9349 5055 Carlton South VIC 3053 F: +61 3 9349 5088 Australia E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.agent-software.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)
Dear Listers. I can't resist my two-bob's worth (yes a child of the predecimal era). I would personally resist fundamentalism in all things, that is, the extremist views on any topic, one way or the other. Fundamentalism is the cause of many of the world's woes. Extremist views on abortion do defy logic, but it is not merely an issue of logic. It is one of extreme complexity that involves emotions, moral standpoints, ethical considerations for the individual and her close associates, and the interests of society. It begs a general rule to protect the generally held value for life (and logic dictates that it is life, though of what kind is the subject of considerable debate), yet it is always the value of one life against the value of its impact upon another life. Therefore each circumstance requires its own merits in deliberating how it plays out. What I mean is, general values for life might be: Society values the life of unborn children, therefore it resists ending such lives. However, society also values the lives of women, perhaps more as already contributing members, and therefore seeks to support her ability to live a meaningful, prosperous and healthy existence. General Rule: Her life has primacy over the life of her unborn child. If we hold that killing another human is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what 'quality' that human is, then we must logically refrain from killing all human life (again the thorny issues of reproductive technologies raise their head should we create a life knowing it will in likelihood be killed as in creation of embryos for transplant). Should the fetus live at his mother's expense? If we hold to a sort of sliding scale of value for human life that sees some life as more valuable, viable, important than others (eg judged against its potential to improve or impede the general good) then we might make judicious decisions about when and whose life to end. Logic then allows for termination of pregnancy, euthenasia, capital punishment, self-defence killing, and war. If we hold that the choice of the individual outweighs the opinions of others on issues such as sovereignty of the self over the body, any woman may make a choice to terminate a pregnancy, and a person may kill himself. If we hold women and others are not sovereign over their own bodies, but are a vessel of the product of the state or paterfamilias (the baby belongs to society so is not hers in any case, or may be the father's etc), then she must go to jail for smoking in pregnancy or be tried for murder if the baby dies in utero. Imagine what might happen in cases of unexplained fetal death, just like what has happened with multiple SIDS in one family, the woman is always blamed. Perhaps the issue is debated on personhood. Is it wrong to kill a person? If so, when does the embryo become one? If based on traditional definitions of self-awareness, cognitive abilities and the ability for self-determination, then this allows for infanticide and involuntary euthenasia of the severely mentally impaired, but not for war or capital punishment. You can see that ethically the matter is not clear cut. Yes, abortion is killing, but so is war, so is self-defense slaying, and so is capital punishment. So is bombing Iraquis.. In reality, most people don't make moral/ethical decisions based on if/then moral principles. They make them based on a thousand contingencies and interests, and I believe that since we can never know first hand what these are or how they are experienced by the individual we should never stand in judgment of her. The best we can/should do is know ourself, and if we can't serperate our own moral outrage from the actions of another, we should simply decline to take part. In termination of pregnancy we have this choice. But we should never make our opinions impact in a negative manner on her, she is going through enough. That's my stance um, well, stances, well, shifting positions. Oh, heck, until it happens to me I will never know. Trish -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)
Well said Trish. Years ago when I first started @ uni, we had one subject on abortion specifically. As I read, I found that I needed to take a stand, one way or another, but the more that I read the less able I was to make a stand. I guess the old adage of walk a mile in their shoes is very true for this subject Judy Giesaitis -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] review of maternity services in QLD
Hi, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned previously. I have just seen Saturdays Australian (I live in a remote part of Australia and get the paper days later)regarding an invitation for public comment on pg 7.,.into review of maternity services in QLD. There is an email for information. info@maternityservicesreviewqld.net.au or see the website. www.maternityservicesreviewqld.net.au contributions are sought by Mon 1 Nov. Cath
Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc Abby, use your passion to work to reduce unwanted pregnancies, rather than judge those who make such a difficult choice. Just wanted to make it clear that I judge the action, not the woman. A very good friend of mine had an abortion, I love her but I hate the decision she made. I mourn for her baby. I also think that calling it as it is, isn't judging, it's just seeing the reality. Thanks for the reminder to work to help reduce unwanted pregnancies. I think it is important that we also remember that those "unwanted pregnancies" are not unwanted babies. There are hundreds of women and men around our country that would like to parent those babies through adoption. Love Abby
Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc
I don't find it ridiculous that you would say it. Vegetarians are often held to much "higher" expectations than others, but just in case you hadn't noticed they are human too and liable to all such vagaries. Apparently refusing to eat animals or objecting to animal cruelty implies one is on another plane. Only to those who for some reason are offended by such a position. Vegetarians never portray themselves as "perfect". At least not in my experience (always the caveat). Oh the joys of email without emotion! lol! I think you have misinterpreted what I was saying. I was a vego for years and still now am 90%. So...I don't think anything of vegetarians, except, yes, they are human. I don't believe that what you eat makes you any more or any less of a person. My point being that I find it ironic that some vegos are so concerned by harming animallife, yet they will kill their own offspring. To me, this goes against their own philosophies, hence, irony. Love Abby
[ozmidwifery] Another client moving east!!!!
Hi all again, this time I have a Community Midwifery Program client moving around but will be in Brisbane for Christmas, and then probably birth in Tamworth EDB 5-02-05. They are there for the Country Music Festival (about Jan 24th). She had planned a homebirth here in WA, but will be travelling in a caravan/camper so is unsure whether it will be possible to birth in it. She has a 5 yr old and a 3 yr old also - straight forward births. What is the birthing situation in Brisbane and Tamworth? Mid led care? Any homebirth midwives close by???Hospital situation?? Thanks, Laraine. In defence of this apparent exodus, we have also had several women and families travelling in buses etc, arrive in WA in time for a home birth!
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)
We are talking about a procedure much more akin to the removal of unwanted/unviable flesh from a woman's body, to assess it from a purely medical point of view. I would love to hear this said to Gianna, the aborted fetus that lived to tell of her story. How can we call, something two people have partaked in creating unwanted/unviable flesh? The problem is, that piece of flesh has a soul, has nerve endings, can feel pain, can have eyes, ears, toes, finger, organs etc etc this is not just flesh. How can we assess anything from a purely medical view for our bodies are not purely medical. We are body, mind and spirit, living as one being. I find the idea of viability an interesting one, because, if a baby and mother were all alone, no support, but the baby was alive and born, would it then be okay for the mother to kill her baby? It certainly wouldn't be viable if she left it alone never to return. I agree that this is not a list to argue on and I don't really fancy arguing by email as so many things are misinterpreted. I will admit that I am a hypocrite in the fact of eating meat (though, as soon as I could I made a decision not to eat meat and started only when I felt my body needed it for a time) though I do hold human life in much higher regard, way above an animals life. I don't ever believe that their is a need for abortion. Most, true unviable pregnancies are naturally aborted by the mothers body. Love Abby -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] West Today
Dear all I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by Geraldine Mellett Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who did not?? Denise Hynd "Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever have." Margaret Mead
[ozmidwifery] abortion and working with women etc
Abby I find your writings on abortion very judgemental of others. How can you sit in judgment when you personally have not been through abortion and know what it is like, or know why a woman would make that choice? It seems youhave never had to face a situation personally with abortion. Or if you have you need to deal with your feelings about it adequetly rather than sit in judgment of others. I have had two abortions personally -one an unwanted pregnancy at a very young age with failed contraceptives and the other a very much wanted pregnancy and abortion due to medical reasons (my health not the fetus'). They werehard situations and the grief I have experienced is enormous. I have reflected on my views on abortion many times and althoughIdon't believe I wouldchoose an abortion again for myselfI still believe in a womans right to choose an abortion. Perhaps its time you turned the attention and energy around and focus on yourself and look at what it is inside yourself that you can't accept. I worry that someone who works with women regulary would hold such harsh views.How can you care and support them adequetly feeling the way you do? Do you ask each woman before you work with them about their "abortion status" and decline working with them if they have had an abortion? I didn't want to join this debate as it is such an emotive one and probably does no good, but your comments affected me and there are probably many women on this list who have had abortions so you are sitting in judgement of many and bringing up pain and many feelings for women in a very unloving and unsupportive way. perhaps its time to take this debate to an abortion list rather than an ozmid one. Thanks - Original Message - From: Abby and Toby To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] re: abortion etc Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous! I just can't get this comment out of my head. It is so ridiculous...so ridiculous that some women don't eat meat because they don't want to harm or killan animal, yet they will willfully, and by choice, harm and kill their unborn baby. I find this incredibly ridiculous. Abby
[ozmidwifery] abortion 'discussion'?
I am extraordinarily disappointed that for some women the devotion to the care and wellbeing of women extends only to those who 'fit'. I accept any woman's right to belief in how to manage their own lifestyle and the choices therein, therefore I think it is absolutely okay to disagree with abortions. However using language of violence (belonging usually to the domain of men) to propagate a viewpoint through its emotive intent is narrow-minded, shortsighted and I feel illustrates the simplistic social viewpoint of women and the framework that enables the judgement of their supposed choices. There is no room in this for compassion or humanity. As the saying goes you have to walk a mile in a persons shoes before you should deem to understand therefore judge them. It is (disappointedly) interesting that violent language is the very nature of the obstetric reasons for intervening in birth i.e. forceps to stop the baby being battered against the rigid wall of the perineum, uncontrolled mutilating tears as a reason to cut a woman's vagina and perineum, etc etc. There is no way in my mind that it is women centered or woman focused to describe the complexity of the choices; reasons and emotions around abortion in such simplistic demeaning and judgmental ways. Vegetarianism and abortion, I find that incredibly ridiculous! Is it better to go back to forcing women who still have little sexual autonomy in todays society to birth children that for what ever reason are not 'wanted' or whom will place a particular burden on the woman. We can always say yes but I would do ..., hwoever it is not you or me, it is no ones place to make such chocies and live with those choices but the woman herslef. Violence is perpetrated against women and children all over the world, lets not equate abortion in this, lets make the world a better place for women and children to be born into and to live. Like anything in life there are no easy answers This is a complicated and muddled world where unplanned pregnancues may be wanted, where wanted children may emerge from unwnated pregnancues, where the offspring of wanted pregnancies may be rejected, where infatuation with infants grows cold and where children may be wanted soley to meet their parents pathological needs. Juliet Cheetham 1977 I think if we can sit back and say the world is good, women are truly able to make choices that do not stem from the social and cultural contexts' of oppression; sexual and generded inequality and expolitation, patricahial interest etc etc then maybe we can sit in judgement of drug addicts, and choices such as abortion, until then vioence is perpetrated through language and judegment. Unfortunatly it is, as it seems always, women who bear the brunt, blame and gulit of peoples belief that they know better and sit in judgement. I have had to make hard choices in my career - do I really want to be with womEn or not. It means I often have to leave my own sense of morality and values where they belong in my private domain, this does not mean that I am compromised, it does mean I can help far more women and maybe leave a little of me with them... For anyone who knows me knows I love quotes so I will finish here with a couple... your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your undserstanding. Kahil Gibran men are disturbed not by things that happen but by their opinion of the things that happen Epictetus Before enlightenment chopping wood carrying water After enlightenment chopping wood carrying water Zen Proverb Belinda -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vegan and pro-choice (was abortion etc)
Abby, This is clearly an issue that you feel very strongly about and one that you are willing to fight for. I applaud you for having such a passion. Thought it might be worth considering the perspective of others for short time. Abortion for most women is not an easy decision. It is not something they do without an enormous amount of consideration and addressing each of the alternatives. Yet for many, there simply is not a viable alternative. There are women who choose abortion following a rape, or a diagnosis of abnormality - sometimes one that is incompatible with life. For others they decide to have an abortion because their financial circumstances, their emotional state or their immaturity are not compatible with the raising of a child. Yes, for many adoption is an option. However, this is not something many women wish to consider since it still means continuing with a pregnancy that they do not want. You may see this as convenience, but to do so negates the emotional impact of an unwanted pregnancy on a woman's life. You may also argue that in these cases the mother is not considering the emotional impact on the baby who did not ask to be conceived and certainly would not ask to be aborted. Perhaps. At the end of the day though, if abortion were not a viable alternative for women legally, it would still take place illegally and would increase the health risk to many many women. You said that you judge the choice rather than the woman. However, in using such emotional language your argument comes across as being extremely judgemental of the woman. I fail to see how you can judge the choice and not the woman who made it. Judging someone does not mean that you cease to be friends with them as you seemed to imply when you mentioned that your close friend had an abortion. Judging someone is about thinking less of them for their choices or lifestyle. Can you honestly say that you still have the same respect for your friend after she chose an abortion? If you have ever been in a position where you had to face an unwanted pregnancy, then I applaud you again for making the decision to keep your baby against the odds or for making an extremely difficult choice of adoption. If you have never been in this position then please consider how it feels to walk the shoes of a woman who discovers she is pregnant and feels simply devastated by this and unable to continue with her pregnancy. Women who choose abortion know all too well that they are ending a life. They also understand the magnitude of such a decision. It is not light hearted nor is it a choice they want to make. Surely our goal should be to help women have healthy babies when they want them, provide support to those who choose to adopt their babies out and show compassion for those who feel they can no longer continue with their pregnancy and choose abortion. Clearly those on the pro life and the pro choice sides of the fence are never going to see eye to eye on this issue. But if our focus is on helping women in all their choices to make the choice that is best for them, and providing education to help women understand their options, we are at least working towards the same goal. Respectfully, Nikki Macfarlane www.childbirthinternational.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] West Today
Dear all I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by Geraldine Mellett Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who did not?? Denise Hynd "Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever have." Margaret Mead
[ozmidwifery] West Today
Dear all I trust you all read page 15 in today's West by Geraldine Mellett Anyone able to transcribe to the list for those who did not?? Denise Hynd "Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever have." Margaret Mead
