Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
high humpty ??? g Fred
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
That's interesting about the variants of UV filters. Do you carry a lot of UV filter variants with you? How do you decide when to use which one? I've used primarily Skylight's and have noted that the light transmission charts show that some skylights block UV radiation while others do not. In my own kit I went with 49, 58, and 77mm SMC Skylight filters, with step up rings to accommodate different size lenses. I did that mostly for the sake of consistency and because I trust the quality of Pentax filters, and it keeps the system simple. I've been interested in trying a 'minus blue' filter with BW film - haven't gotten around to getting one yet though. - MCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo, MI www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:18 AM Subject: Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters It should be noted that there are different strengths of UV (Sometimes called haze) filters, as there are skylight filters. Tiffen, just for an example, has several UV filters that they offer: UV Protector - Protects lens from dust, moisture, scratches, and breakage. Haze 1 - Reduces excessive blue haze caused by UV light by absorbing 71% of UV. Recommended for all-around UV control. Haze 2A - Absorbs all UV light; reduces haze; maintains color and image clarity. Best for high altitude and marine scenes. UV 17 - Created for the photographer who wants to absorb most but not all UV light. It absorbs slightly less UV light than the Haze 2A. Warm UV - combines the benefits of the UV 17 with the Tiffen 812 Color Warming Filter for added warmth. Other companies may have similar variations in their filter lineup. B+W has several variants of the UV or Haze filter. In some situations the minus blue filter may be a better choice for eliminating the blue found at high altitudes and in other environments, but not all companies make such a filter, which is a yellow filter that falls within a particular range. Not every yellow filter has the same characteristics. One B+W UV filter is the KR6, which is suited for daylight with a high percentage of blue (midday in the mountains during the summer), and which is recommended for color film.used in situations where an extreme blue tone is to be expected. Not only does it block ultraviolet light and reduce blue tones in the shade, but it also penetrates light fog. The bottom line is that it's easy to slap a UV filter on your lens and believe you're getting a certain result, such as the results provided by some of the above and similar filters. Unfortunately, many people believe a UV filter is a UV filter, or that all skylight filters are the same. Such is not the case, and the clever photographer chooses his or her filter with careful thought to the desired results. As for cleaning Multi-Coated filters, the two best cleaners that I;ve come across are the ones sold by The Filter Connection (I think it's their MC formula) and the cleaner sold by ClearSight. Both do a remarkable job with no streaking or leaving of residual haze or film, as another perennial favorite, ROR, cab do if not carefully applied. Shel [Original Message] From: Mark Cassino Hi Boris - I did a simple test with Hoya HMC filters vs Pentax SMC - I took them out into the sun and tried to see how much of a reflection I could bounce off the filter onto a dark wall. The SMC filter was noticeably better in this test. Does it mean anything? I don't know, but I use a filter on my A* 200 macro to protect the front element, and I figure it's penny wise but pound foolish to slap an inferior filter on an excellent lens. In regards to protective filters - I only use them when there are identified risks that could damage the lens. Like little children and food (it's nice to be able to just smile at a little tyke who just put his greasy finger on the _filter_ in front of your camera lens, as opposed to traumatizing him by snatching the camera away) For macros in the field I use a protect filter because it's easy to poke the front element of a lens when you are poking around in brush etc - and when you have the lens set to close focus, you don't always see potential hazards in the finder. Bus absent an identified risk, I don;t use a filter unless I need the filter effect. It's also important to take into consideration those situations where a UV filter or Skylight is truly valuable for it's optical effect. I think there's a tendency to view these filters as merely being protective, but they will actually improve sharpness, cut haze, and help color saturation when shooting outdoors, particularly if you are shooting distant subjects, in bright sun, in situations with high humpty, dust, or smog. I don't know why, but I've found cleaning multicoated filters (Pentax, Hoya
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Hi Mark ... No, I don't carry many, if any, filters with me. I use a minimal number of filters IAC, but, when shooting a specific situation and looking for a particular effect, then it's time to consider which, if any, filter variant may be used. If, for example, I was heading to the mountains, I may take a Haze 2A or equivalent, and/or a minus blue depending on film choice, etc., but around town I may not carry or use any filter at all. Shel [Original Message] From: Mark Cassino That's interesting about the variants of UV filters. Do you carry a lot of UV filter variants with you? How do you decide when to use which one? I've used primarily Skylight's and have noted that the light transmission charts show that some skylights block UV radiation while others do not. In my own kit I went with 49, 58, and 77mm SMC Skylight filters, with step up rings to accommodate different size lenses. I did that mostly for the sake of consistency and because I trust the quality of Pentax filters, and it keeps the system simple. I've been interested in trying a 'minus blue' filter with BW film - haven't gotten around to getting one yet though. - MCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo, MI www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:18 AM Subject: Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters It should be noted that there are different strengths of UV (Sometimes called haze) filters, as there are skylight filters. Tiffen, just for an example, has several UV filters that they offer: UV Protector - Protects lens from dust, moisture, scratches, and breakage. Haze 1 - Reduces excessive blue haze caused by UV light by absorbing 71% of UV. Recommended for all-around UV control. Haze 2A - Absorbs all UV light; reduces haze; maintains color and image clarity. Best for high altitude and marine scenes. UV 17 - Created for the photographer who wants to absorb most but not all UV light. It absorbs slightly less UV light than the Haze 2A. Warm UV - combines the benefits of the UV 17 with the Tiffen 812 Color Warming Filter for added warmth. Other companies may have similar variations in their filter lineup. B+W has several variants of the UV or Haze filter. In some situations the minus blue filter may be a better choice for eliminating the blue found at high altitudes and in other environments, but not all companies make such a filter, which is a yellow filter that falls within a particular range. Not every yellow filter has the same characteristics. One B+W UV filter is the KR6, which is suited for daylight with a high percentage of blue (midday in the mountains during the summer), and which is recommended for color film.used in situations where an extreme blue tone is to be expected. Not only does it block ultraviolet light and reduce blue tones in the shade, but it also penetrates light fog. The bottom line is that it's easy to slap a UV filter on your lens and believe you're getting a certain result, such as the results provided by some of the above and similar filters. Unfortunately, many people believe a UV filter is a UV filter, or that all skylight filters are the same. Such is not the case, and the clever photographer chooses his or her filter with careful thought to the desired results. As for cleaning Multi-Coated filters, the two best cleaners that I;ve come across are the ones sold by The Filter Connection (I think it's their MC formula) and the cleaner sold by ClearSight. Both do a remarkable job with no streaking or leaving of residual haze or film, as another perennial favorite, ROR, cab do if not carefully applied. Shel
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Hi Boris - I did a simple test with Hoya HMC filters vs Pentax SMC - I took them out into the sun and tried to see how much of a reflection I could bounce off the filter onto a dark wall. The SMC filter was noticeably better in this test. Does it mean anything? I don't know, but I use a filter on my A* 200 macro to protect the front element, and I figure it's penny wise but pound foolish to slap an inferior filter on an excellent lens. In regards to protective filters - I only use them when there are identified risks that could damage the lens. Like little children and food (it's nice to be able to just smile at a little tyke who just put his greasy finger on the _filter_ in front of your camera lens, as opposed to traumatizing him by snatching the camera away) For macros in the field I use a protect filter because it's easy to poke the front element of a lens when you are poking around in brush etc - and when you have the lens set to close focus, you don't always see potential hazards in the finder. Bus absent an identified risk, I don;t use a filter unless I need the filter effect. It's also important to take into consideration those situations where a UV filter or Skylight is truly valuable for it's optical effect. I think there's a tendency to view these filters as merely being protective, but they will actually improve sharpness, cut haze, and help color saturation when shooting outdoors, particularly if you are shooting distant subjects, in bright sun, in situations with high humpty, dust, or smog. I don't know why, but I've found cleaning multicoated filters (Pentax, Hoya, and Sigma EX) to be very difficult. Maybe because you can rotate it and really examine the glass, and any little imperfection is more apparent. I've found Kodak lens cleaning paper to do the trick - after thoroughly cleaning with a microfiber cloth, a few wipes with a single sheet of paper does it. - MCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo, MI www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - From: Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: Questions re Pentax made lens filters Hi! For some time I've been using el cheapo (Cokin plastic et al) protective filters on my lenses. Some time ago I stopped doing so. Then recently I found that some of my lenses are now dusty inside. Then on eekBay I found that there are Pentax made lens filters. Some of them are even SMC. Are they worth it? How do they compare to other manufacturer's filters? Finally, but please don't let it be a flame, if not Pentax, what are the protective filters that match optical quality of lenses such as FA 50/1.7 or M 50/1.4 that I have? Then of course as usualy I may be nuts again... I mean may be filters have nothing to do with dust inside lenses... Thanks. -- Boris
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
It should be noted that there are different strengths of UV (Sometimes called haze) filters, as there are skylight filters. Tiffen, just for an example, has several UV filters that they offer: UV Protector - Protects lens from dust, moisture, scratches, and breakage. Haze 1 - Reduces excessive blue haze caused by UV light by absorbing 71% of UV. Recommended for all-around UV control. Haze 2A - Absorbs all UV light; reduces haze; maintains color and image clarity. Best for high altitude and marine scenes. UV 17 - Created for the photographer who wants to absorb most but not all UV light. It absorbs slightly less UV light than the Haze 2A. Warm UV - combines the benefits of the UV 17 with the Tiffen 812 Color Warming Filter for added warmth. Other companies may have similar variations in their filter lineup. B+W has several variants of the UV or Haze filter. In some situations the minus blue filter may be a better choice for eliminating the blue found at high altitudes and in other environments, but not all companies make such a filter, which is a yellow filter that falls within a particular range. Not every yellow filter has the same characteristics. One B+W UV filter is the KR6, which is suited for daylight with a high percentage of blue (midday in the mountains during the summer), and which is recommended for color film.used in situations where an extreme blue tone is to be expected. Not only does it block ultraviolet light and reduce blue tones in the shade, but it also penetrates light fog. The bottom line is that it's easy to slap a UV filter on your lens and believe you're getting a certain result, such as the results provided by some of the above and similar filters. Unfortunately, many people believe a UV filter is a UV filter, or that all skylight filters are the same. Such is not the case, and the clever photographer chooses his or her filter with careful thought to the desired results. As for cleaning Multi-Coated filters, the two best cleaners that I;ve come across are the ones sold by The Filter Connection (I think it's their MC formula) and the cleaner sold by ClearSight. Both do a remarkable job with no streaking or leaving of residual haze or film, as another perennial favorite, ROR, cab do if not carefully applied. Shel [Original Message] From: Mark Cassino Hi Boris - I did a simple test with Hoya HMC filters vs Pentax SMC - I took them out into the sun and tried to see how much of a reflection I could bounce off the filter onto a dark wall. The SMC filter was noticeably better in this test. Does it mean anything? I don't know, but I use a filter on my A* 200 macro to protect the front element, and I figure it's penny wise but pound foolish to slap an inferior filter on an excellent lens. In regards to protective filters - I only use them when there are identified risks that could damage the lens. Like little children and food (it's nice to be able to just smile at a little tyke who just put his greasy finger on the _filter_ in front of your camera lens, as opposed to traumatizing him by snatching the camera away) For macros in the field I use a protect filter because it's easy to poke the front element of a lens when you are poking around in brush etc - and when you have the lens set to close focus, you don't always see potential hazards in the finder. Bus absent an identified risk, I don;t use a filter unless I need the filter effect. It's also important to take into consideration those situations where a UV filter or Skylight is truly valuable for it's optical effect. I think there's a tendency to view these filters as merely being protective, but they will actually improve sharpness, cut haze, and help color saturation when shooting outdoors, particularly if you are shooting distant subjects, in bright sun, in situations with high humpty, dust, or smog. I don't know why, but I've found cleaning multicoated filters (Pentax, Hoya, and Sigma EX) to be very difficult. Maybe because you can rotate it and really examine the glass, and any little imperfection is more apparent. I've found Kodak lens cleaning paper to do the trick - after thoroughly cleaning with a microfiber cloth, a few wipes with a single sheet of paper does it. - MCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo, MI www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - From: Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: Questions re Pentax made lens filters Hi! For some time I've been using el cheapo (Cokin plastic et al) protective filters on my lenses. Some time ago I stopped doing so. Then recently I found that some of my lenses are now dusty inside. Then on eekBay I found that there are Pentax made lens filters. Some of them are even SMC. Are they worth it? How do
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Hi! Har! I have one Vivitar VMC filter that is real bitch to clean :). I suppose I will eventually get across the pond and then the shopping will happen. Thanks Shel and thanks Mark - your comments are very much appreciated. Boris
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Hi! If I may make a suggestion Yes of course... Seriously, don't go out and buy a bunch of clear glass. It's not really time consuming to change filters. If you are in an all fired rush to get some glass, get a really good polarizer in each of the sizes you use, and one protective filter in each of the sizes you use. If you still shoot BW film, consider some filters for that. I have two Cokin A system holders and a good bunch of filters including polarizer... So perhaps it would translate your suggestion to buying just one protective 49 mm and one protective 52 mm... Well, given what eBay/PDML offers I will do more or less just that. May I ask what is it mail order? And can I use mail order from Israel? -- Boris
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Quoting Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: May I ask what is it mail order? And can I use mail order from Israel? Mail order is what you do when you buy things from shops and have them sent to you by mail. Like BH. :-) Jostein This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Tuesday, May 31, 2005, 4:09:32 AM, Fred wrote: I like both Pentax SMC and Hoya HMC filters (and, I've found the Hoya HMC's easier to clean). I've never tried a Hoya SHMC - it does sound like a marketing ploy - g. LOL. I happen to have HMC (97%) Super HMC (99.7%). The Super HMC is indeed more flare resistance and shows less reflection when compared side by side. F That's interesting, Alan. Maybe I should try an HSMC filter and see for F myself then... Thanks for the report. Hi Fred, I have had a similar experience as Alan. There is indeed a small difference between HMC and SHMC. Not much but sometimes visible. Good light! fra
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
F That's interesting, Alan. Maybe I should try an HSMC filter and see for F myself then... Thanks for the report. Hi Fred, I have had a similar experience as Alan. There is indeed a small difference between HMC and SHMC. Not much but sometimes visible. Ah, good - thanks, Frantisek. Fred
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Ditto. Except for the Pentax bayonet mount ones for the P67 lenses... Norm William Robb wrote: My preference for filters has always been B+W.
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
I prefer the Pentax SMC filters and the MRC B+W filters. Shel [Original Message] From: Norman Baugher Ditto. Except for the Pentax bayonet mount ones for the P67 lenses... Norm William Robb wrote: My preference for filters has always been B+W.
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Hi! Shel: I prefer the Pentax SMC filters and the MRC B+W filters. Norman Baugher: Ditto. Except for the Pentax bayonet mount ones for the P67 lenses... William Robb: My preference for filters has always been B+W. Very well. I see the point. Thanks everyone who responded... I suppose I am going to buy me some 49 mm and 52 mm protective filters for my most valuable lenses... The final question: what is the a decent price for a decent condition SMCP or MRC B+W filters? Anyone willing to enable me? Seriously. Boris
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
- Original Message - From: Boris Liberman Subject: Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters I suppose I am going to buy me some 49 mm and 52 mm protective filters for my most valuable lenses... If I may make a suggestion Seriously, don't go out and buy a bunch of clear glass. It's not really time consuming to change filters. If you are in an all fired rush to get some glass, get a really good polarizer in each of the sizes you use, and one protective filter in each of the sizes you use. If you still shoot BW film, consider some filters for that. The final question: what is the a decent price for a decent condition SMCP or MRC B+W filters? Anyone willing to enable me? Seriously. eBay, or mail order... William Robb
Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Hi! For some time I've been using el cheapo (Cokin plastic et al) protective filters on my lenses. Some time ago I stopped doing so. Then recently I found that some of my lenses are now dusty inside. Then on eekBay I found that there are Pentax made lens filters. Some of them are even SMC. Are they worth it? How do they compare to other manufacturer's filters? Finally, but please don't let it be a flame, if not Pentax, what are the protective filters that match optical quality of lenses such as FA 50/1.7 or M 50/1.4 that I have? Then of course as usualy I may be nuts again... I mean may be filters have nothing to do with dust inside lenses... Thanks. -- Boris
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
On Mon, 30 May 2005, Boris Liberman wrote: Then of course as usualy I may be nuts again... I mean may be filters have nothing to do with dust inside lenses... I should think so. If you mentioned scratches on the front element though... To your question, SMC Pentax filters are highly reputed. Hoya HMC are good and affordable; I have even heard that going SHMC is falling for marketing ploy. I have also used Heliopan filters (for BW) and was amazed by the smoothness of fitting. I only use filters for BW anymore, and that seldom as they reduce my ability to focus in low light. Kostas
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
I mean may be filters have nothing to do with dust inside lenses... Indeed. I think most internal dust enters between moving parts (when focusing (and zooming, with zooms) (and perhaps also through the mount end). I think front filters have very little to do with internal dust (but a lot to do with dust on the front element - g). Furthermore, I think that any lens that focuses without changing length (e.g., IF lenses) will gather less internal dust than those lenses that focus (and/or zoom) by acting as a bellows, sucking in and blowing out air every time their helicoids are exercised. Even in the case of the above bellows-action lenses, keeping their outsides as free of dust as possible helps - why have dust sitting on them just waiting to be sucked in the next time they are focused? One interesting way of coping with this bellows-action ability to collect internal dust is in the VS1 600/8 and 800/11 Solid Cats - there are four little air filters over four openings at the back of the lens, intended to filter air on the way in when the lenses are focused closer (which is when air would be sucked in). Presumably the internal construction of these lenses includes some gasketry that slows down dust entering at the edge of the focus ring, or the filters would not be very effective. Fred
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
To your question, SMC Pentax filters are highly reputed. Hoya HMC are good and affordable; I have even heard that going SHMC is falling for marketing ploy. I have also used Heliopan filters (for BW) and was amazed by the smoothness of fitting. I like both Pentax SMC and Hoya HMC filters (and, I've found the Hoya HMC's easier to clean). I've never tried a Hoya SHMC - it does sound like a marketing ploy - g. I once tried getting a couple of Heliopan filters but could not seem to locate multicoated ones, so I gave up. I don't use filters all the time - I try to use filters only on frequently used lenses that see a lot of outdoors service. Fred
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
Boris Liberman wrote on 30.05.05 15:32: Are they worth it? How do they compare to other manufacturer's filters? Boris, main problem with filters is that they can cause unwanted flare and gosting. That's why SMC-coated filters theoretically should be the best. However I use Marumi WPC thin filters and they are quite good too and with more scratch and moisture resistant coatings (Water Proof Coated) - something similar to B+W MRC. More on flare and gosting when using UV filters you can read here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-feb-05.shtml -- Balance is the ultimate good... Best Regards Sylwek
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
--- Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are they worth it? How do they compare to other manufacturer's filters? Consider used SMC filters are expensive, I'd say it's better to buy brand new B+W MRC or HOYA SUPER HMC. Finally, but please don't let it be a flame, if not Pentax, what are the protective filters that match optical quality of lenses such as FA 50/1.7 or M 50/1.4 that I have? I am a sharpness nut, but I honestly do not think it is such a big deal. Have been using HOYA monocoated, HMC, Super HMC, Nikon, Pentax, B+W and some others. Some very low quality like uncoated, Cokin resin or Tiffen degrade the image quality, but coated HOYA, Nikon, Pentax B+W do not show any difference at all. The thing is, when the front of the lens was hit by any strong light, even the best filter flares, simple as that. Then of course as usualy I may be nuts again... I mean may be filters have nothing to do with dust inside lenses... Of course not. :-) Alan Chan http://www.pbase.com/wlachan __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
I am a sharpness nut, but I honestly do not think it is such a big deal. Have been using HOYA monocoated, HMC, Super HMC, Nikon, Pentax, B+W and some others. Some very low quality like uncoated, Cokin resin or Tiffen degrade the image quality, but coated HOYA, Nikon, Pentax B+W do not show any difference at all. The thing is, when the front of the lens was hit by any strong light, even the best filter flares, simple as that. But if cost/quality is concerned, I recommend HOYA HMC (or Super HMC if you managed to buy them as cheap). Some people having difficulty to clean HOYA coating, but folded toilet paper with acetone will restore them in factory condition, just don't rub them hard. Alan Chan http://www.pbase.com/wlachan __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
--- Fred [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like both Pentax SMC and Hoya HMC filters (and, I've found the Hoya HMC's easier to clean). I've never tried a Hoya SHMC - it does sound like a marketing ploy - g. LOL. I happen to have HMC (97%) Super HMC (99.7%). The Super HMC is indeed more flare resistance and shows less reflection when compared side by side. Pity recent HOYA rims are not as nicely made as they used to. Alan Chan http://www.pbase.com/wlachan __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
- Original Message - From: Boris Liberman Subject: Questions re Pentax made lens filters Hi! For some time I've been using el cheapo (Cokin plastic et al) protective filters on my lenses. Some time ago I stopped doing so. Then recently I found that some of my lenses are now dusty inside. Then on eekBay I found that there are Pentax made lens filters. Some of them are even SMC. Are they worth it? How do they compare to other manufacturer's filters? Finally, but please don't let it be a flame, if not Pentax, what are the protective filters that match optical quality of lenses such as FA 50/1.7 or M 50/1.4 that I have? Then of course as usualy I may be nuts again... I mean may be filters have nothing to do with dust inside lenses... I don't keep protective filters on my lenses unless I am putting the front of the lens at some risk by not doing so. However, I do keep some protective filters around in case I want one. My preference for filters has always been B+W. I think they make 2 lines now, one with aluminium rings, the other with brass. The brass ones won't weld themselves onto the front of the lens. I've never been concerned with the quality of the glass they use. I don't think a filter will keep dust from getting into a lens. William Robb
Re: Questions re Pentax made lens filters
I like both Pentax SMC and Hoya HMC filters (and, I've found the Hoya HMC's easier to clean). I've never tried a Hoya SHMC - it does sound like a marketing ploy - g. LOL. I happen to have HMC (97%) Super HMC (99.7%). The Super HMC is indeed more flare resistance and shows less reflection when compared side by side. That's interesting, Alan. Maybe I should try an HSMC filter and see for myself then... Thanks for the report. Fred
