RE: English, American version
Boris, We have spoken by phone and your English is good, but not as clear as your written words. This is what I suspected. Well, my understanding is that to correct that I will have to spend considerable time (more than a single vacation, for example) among English speaking people. [...] See if you can get a job in Newcastle-upon-Tyne for a couple of years. The people there have the reputation for speaking unimpeachably clear English that can be understood everywhere. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
Say what? On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 11:56 PM, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: Good Lord. A native Russian who now lives in Isreal doesn't speak English according to some local idiom. To top it off, yor are a bonafide pocket protector wearing computer geek. I think it's wonderful that I can communicate with you at all. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
From: Tom C If it's wrong to be politically incorrect, why is politics so screwed up? Politically incorrect is a pleonasm; use of an unnecessary word that is implicit in the word it describes: A round circle. A big giant. Politically incorrect. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
From: Boris Liberman Here is my situation. I came as an engineer (think - Dilbert) along with the project manager (mid-to-high management, also non-native speaker, but probably more experienced in this specific kind of verbal kung-fu) and worked with both my parallels (system operator and IT person of the company we visited) and also lower-mid managers and some higher ranked boss whose true rank I fail to comprehend. My lame excuse was that in fact I was rather occupied all the time with the technical situation and simply said what I meant - that I suggest that in order to solve the problem they have they do this and don't do that. I indicated that they could do otherwise, but that we would advise them to stick to our suggestion as we think it is the optimal course of action at the moment. I specifically indicated that this was a temporary measure for the duration of their more important work. At then of this period (whose duration was given explicitly) they could return to their normal procedures. To summarize: Your customer has some process that is giving trouble in current circumstances. Your company is involved in making the process work properly. You are presenting possible solutions to a group of peers and higher level management. You laid out possible options for dealing with the problem and said I suggest this specific option BECAUSE ... based on your expertise, you believe it to be the optimal solution. It seems to me, you are acting in the role of consultant. Under the circumstances, your suggestions based on your expertise is exactly what you're customer is buying. Given that context using the phrase I suggest is entirely appropriate. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: English, American version
From: Bob W Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to (Diplomatic) French. Zut Alors! The difference is that one can still get one's point across in English if one chooses succinct language. This has never been the case with French. Mes couilles! ... a dit la Reine. Si je les avais je serais Roi! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
You taught me a new word and it frequently describes my style of communication. :-) neoplasm: 1. the use of more words than are necessary to express an idea Tom C. On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: From: Tom C If it's wrong to be politically incorrect, why is politics so screwed up? Politically incorrect is a pleonasm; use of an unnecessary word that is implicit in the word it describes: A round circle. A big giant. Politically incorrect. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
Except Politically Correct is different from Politics or Politically,
and Correct, so it isn't really a neoplasm.
To do the correct thing is often at odds with the politically
correct, and to be politic, is also often at odds with political
correctness, and correctness and politics are usually at odds with each
other.
On 2/2/2010 12:44 PM, Tom C wrote:
You taught me a new word and it frequently describes my style of
communication. :-)
neoplasm:
1. the use of more words than are necessary to express an idea
Tom C.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, John Sessomsjsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote:
From: Tom C
If it's wrong to be politically incorrect, why is politics so screwed up?
Politically incorrect is a pleonasm; use of an unnecessary word that is
implicit in the word it describes:
A round circle. A big giant. Politically incorrect.
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Re: English, American version
With your described mix of management levels, I believe you'd be safer by forming your recommendation as a question; may I suggest.. Jack --- On Tue, 2/2/10, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: From: John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com Subject: Re: English, American version To: pdml@pdml.net Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 9:18 AM From: Boris Liberman Here is my situation. I came as an engineer (think - Dilbert) along with the project manager (mid-to-high management, also non-native speaker, but probably more experienced in this specific kind of verbal kung-fu) and worked with both my parallels (system operator and IT person of the company we visited) and also lower-mid managers and some higher ranked boss whose true rank I fail to comprehend. My lame excuse was that in fact I was rather occupied all the time with the technical situation and simply said what I meant - that I suggest that in order to solve the problem they have they do this and don't do that. I indicated that they could do otherwise, but that we would advise them to stick to our suggestion as we think it is the optimal course of action at the moment. I specifically indicated that this was a temporary measure for the duration of their more important work. At then of this period (whose duration was given explicitly) they could return to their normal procedures. To summarize: Your customer has some process that is giving trouble in current circumstances. Your company is involved in making the process work properly. You are presenting possible solutions to a group of peers and higher level management. You laid out possible options for dealing with the problem and said I suggest this specific option BECAUSE ... based on your expertise, you believe it to be the optimal solution. It seems to me, you are acting in the role of consultant. Under the circumstances, your suggestions based on your expertise is exactly what you're customer is buying. Given that context using the phrase I suggest is entirely appropriate. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: From: Tom C Politically incorrect is a pleonasm; use of an unnecessary word that is implicit in the word it describes: A round circle. A big giant. Politically incorrect. A polite Canadian. Except Bill Robb of course... ;-) cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
Morris, The diplomacy and diplomatic language references are completely appropriate. That's what this all comes down to. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Morris Galloway morris-gallo...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I suggest versus Perhaps we could proceed One American's analysis. Among general professionals in the central U.S. If Boris Liberman is in upper management speaking to those in middle management, then I suggest would have 10% more of the Imperative. Among peers it would be perceived as an option awaiting the opportunity for other options to be presented. If used by middle management to upper management it might be considered brash or bold. Among Lawyers it would simply be considered as an option. But then we are a rather thick-skinned profession. Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to Diplomatic French. Zut Alors! Galloway. I suggest might have 10% more -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
If it's wrong to be politically incorrect, why is politics so screwed up? Tom C. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote: Morris, The diplomacy and diplomatic language references are completely appropriate. That's what this all comes down to. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Morris Galloway morris-gallo...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I suggest versus Perhaps we could proceed One American's analysis. Among general professionals in the central U.S. If Boris Liberman is in upper management speaking to those in middle management, then I suggest would have 10% more of the Imperative. Among peers it would be perceived as an option awaiting the opportunity for other options to be presented. If used by middle management to upper management it might be considered brash or bold. Among Lawyers it would simply be considered as an option. But then we are a rather thick-skinned profession. Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to Diplomatic French. Zut Alors! Galloway. I suggest might have 10% more -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
- Original Message - From: Morris Galloway Subject: English, American version Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to (Diplomatic) French. Zut Alors! The difference is that one can still get one's point across in English if one chooses succinct language. This has never been the case with French. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
Language spins to suit a point of view. (usually with the help of the media.) Jack --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Tom C caka...@gmail.com wrote: From: Tom C caka...@gmail.com Subject: Re: English, American version To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 8:14 AM If it's wrong to be politically incorrect, why is politics so screwed up? Tom C. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com wrote: Morris, The diplomacy and diplomatic language references are completely appropriate. That's what this all comes down to. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Morris Galloway morris-gallo...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I suggest versus Perhaps we could proceed One American's analysis. Among general professionals in the central U.S. If Boris Liberman is in upper management speaking to those in middle management, then I suggest would have 10% more of the Imperative. Among peers it would be perceived as an option awaiting the opportunity for other options to be presented. If used by middle management to upper management it might be considered brash or bold. Among Lawyers it would simply be considered as an option. But then we are a rather thick-skinned profession. Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to Diplomatic French. Zut Alors! Galloway. I suggest might have 10% more -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
Succinct takes all the fun out of the language performance and disallows the speaker to clarify their meaning in a tutorial manner. I'm impatient with wordiness, so had best end this. ;) Jack --- On Mon, 2/1/10, William Robb war...@gmail.com wrote: From: William Robb war...@gmail.com Subject: Re: English, American version To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 8:30 AM - Original Message - From: Morris Galloway Subject: English, American version Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to (Diplomatic) French. Zut Alors! The difference is that one can still get one's point across in English if one chooses succinct language. This has never been the case with French. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
On 2010-02-01 08:10 , Morris Galloway wrote: I suggest versus Perhaps we could proceed One American's analysis. Among general professionals in the central U.S. If Boris Liberman is in upper management speaking to those in middle management, then I suggest would have 10% more of the Imperative. Among peers it would be perceived as an option awaiting the opportunity for other options to be presented. If used by middle management to upper management it might be considered brash or bold. good points, and in addition to regional and status variations, i think your words' reception will vary within different corporate cultures and when written versus spoken in person versus telephoned ... in my own small, informal workplace, and as a consultant, i use i suggest to signal: please take my idea seriously, but i won't be disappointed if another idea is selected; i use less direct language like perhaps it would when being more polite (generally with people i know less well), or to signal tentativeness; but such polite forms can also indicate frustration -- meanings can shift within the context of tone and rapport, which i'd expect to be even more important when people know English is not someone's first language i tend to look at etymology when pondering such questions -- i see that the Latin roots of 'suggest' mean bring from below; in my eyes, this makes 'suggest' a good, humble term -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
As a consultant I tend to present options and then suggest the one I personally feel is best. I make it a rule never to say things more than twice, because the client is 'always right'. If I have an idea I express it once. If I feel strongly about, I express it a second time. A third time invariably will make me look like the kind of person I am. An overbearing opinionated pedantic prima donna (so I don't do that). After that if the client has me do things the wrong way, I'm a hero for getting the job done on time, the first time. When they realize there's a problem and I then suggest the fix, I'm a hero for getting the job done right, the second time. I was a hero twice and got paid twice. Tom C. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:28 PM, steve harley p...@paper-ape.com wrote: On 2010-02-01 08:10 , Morris Galloway wrote: I suggest versus Perhaps we could proceed One American's analysis. Among general professionals in the central U.S. If Boris Liberman is in upper management speaking to those in middle management, then I suggest would have 10% more of the Imperative. Among peers it would be perceived as an option awaiting the opportunity for other options to be presented. If used by middle management to upper management it might be considered brash or bold. good points, and in addition to regional and status variations, i think your words' reception will vary within different corporate cultures and when written versus spoken in person versus telephoned ... in my own small, informal workplace, and as a consultant, i use i suggest to signal: please take my idea seriously, but i won't be disappointed if another idea is selected; i use less direct language like perhaps it would when being more polite (generally with people i know less well), or to signal tentativeness; but such polite forms can also indicate frustration -- meanings can shift within the context of tone and rapport, which i'd expect to be even more important when people know English is not someone's first language i tend to look at etymology when pondering such questions -- i see that the Latin roots of 'suggest' mean bring from below; in my eyes, this makes 'suggest' a good, humble term -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
Thanks, Morris. This is fascinating analysis. Here is my situation. I came as an engineer (think - Dilbert) along with the project manager (mid-to-high management, also non-native speaker, but probably more experienced in this specific kind of verbal kung-fu) and worked with both my parallels (system operator and IT person of the company we visited) and also lower-mid managers and some higher ranked boss whose true rank I fail to comprehend. My lame excuse was that in fact I was rather occupied all the time with the technical situation and simply said what I meant - that I suggest that in order to solve the problem they have they do this and don't do that. I indicated that they could do otherwise, but that we would advise them to stick to our suggestion as we think it is the optimal course of action at the moment. I specifically indicated that this was a temporary measure for the duration of their more important work. At then of this period (whose duration was given explicitly) they could return to their normal procedures. As to what others suggested - due to my accent, it is rather difficult for me to both keep my speaking clear and understandable and also spice it with intonation and intent. In fact, if AnnSan, Cotty, Bob W, Mike Wilson or Jostein would chime in here - it would be cool - they spoke to me in person. I also spoke on the phone with Rob, Bill Robb and Bob S. Surely next time I will be more deliberate about my wording. At least I would try to use more neutral variations so as to at least remove any possibility of imperativeness when talking to customers. In principle I should lay in front of them a number of options and they should make their choice how to proceed. It is good to be a PDMLer even if one's native language is not English :-). Thanks a whole lot! Boris On 2/1/2010 5:10 PM, Morris Galloway wrote: I suggest versus Perhaps we could proceed One American's analysis. Among general professionals in the central U.S. If Boris Liberman is in upper management speaking to those in middle management, then I suggest would have 10% more of the Imperative. Among peers it would be perceived as an option awaiting the opportunity for other options to be presented. If used by middle management to upper management it might be considered brash or bold. Among Lawyers it would simply be considered as an option. But then we are a rather thick-skinned profession. Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to Diplomatic French. Zut Alors! Galloway. I suggest might have 10% more -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: English, American version
Thanks, Morris. This is fascinating analysis. Here is my situation. I came as an engineer (think - Dilbert) along with the project manager (mid-to-high management, also non-native speaker, but probably more experienced in this specific kind of verbal kung-fu) and worked with both my parallels (system operator and IT person of the company we visited) and also lower-mid managers and some higher ranked boss whose true rank I fail to comprehend. My lame excuse was that in fact I was rather occupied all the time with the technical situation and simply said what I meant - that I suggest that in order to solve the problem they have they do this and don't do that. I indicated that they could do otherwise, but that we would advise them to stick to our suggestion as we think it is the optimal course of action at the moment. I specifically indicated that this was a temporary measure for the duration of their more important work. At then of this period (whose duration was given explicitly) they could return to their normal procedures. As to what others suggested - due to my accent, it is rather difficult for me to both keep my speaking clear and understandable and also spice it with intonation and intent. In fact, if AnnSan, Cotty, Bob W, Mike Wilson or Jostein would chime in here - it would be cool - they spoke to me in person. I also spoke on the phone with Rob, Bill Robb and Bob S. Surely next time I will be more deliberate about my wording. At least I would try to use more neutral variations so as to at least remove any possibility of imperativeness when talking to customers. In principle I should lay in front of them a number of options and they should make their choice how to proceed. It is good to be a PDMLer even if one's native language is not English :-). Thanks a whole lot! Boris Boris, If you are there as a technical expert advisor then it is your duty to advise. I suggest is a good way of starting a piece of advice. I have been, and often still am, in the position of giving technical advice. If I think one option is better than the others then I have no hesitation in suggesting it. So I might say You can do W, X, Y or Z. K is distinctly subprime. I suggest you do X until the fires have burnt themselves out, then you'll have a bit of time to do Y If they then decide to do Z instead, or even W, then that is their prerogative. But if it all goes Rs over Ts I have at least done my duty to the best of my ability. It is good to be a PDMLer even if one's native language is not English :-). It would be even better if we all spoke Mongolian. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: English, American version
i tend to look at etymology when pondering such questions -- i see that the Latin roots of 'suggest' mean bring from below; in my eyes, this makes 'suggest' a good, humble term Either that or an idea you just pulled out of your ass... Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
On 2010-02-01 12:53 , Bob W wrote: i tend to look at etymology when pondering such questions -- i see that the Latin roots of 'suggest' mean bring from below; in my eyes, this makes 'suggest' a good, humble term Either that or an idea you just pulled out of your ass... well i guess we have to watch to whom we're speaking when we reference what's below -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: English, American version
Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to (Diplomatic) French. Zut Alors! The difference is that one can still get one's point across in English if one chooses succinct language. This has never been the case with French. Mes couilles! Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
Boris, We have spoken by phone and your English is good, but not as clear as your written words. I suspected the situation was as you described - Dilbert vs the Product Manager/Marketer. Tom C. had good advice. Don't say anything more than twice. Don't use the word 'suggest' more than twice, find something else. This poses particular problems when two languages are involved. There is always the problem of mis-understanding by either party. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks, Morris. This is fascinating analysis. Here is my situation. I came as an engineer (think - Dilbert) along with the project manager (mid-to-high management, also non-native speaker, but probably more experienced in this specific kind of verbal kung-fu) and worked with both my parallels (system operator and IT person of the company we visited) and also lower-mid managers and some higher ranked boss whose true rank I fail to comprehend. My lame excuse was that in fact I was rather occupied all the time with the technical situation and simply said what I meant - that I suggest that in order to solve the problem they have they do this and don't do that. I indicated that they could do otherwise, but that we would advise them to stick to our suggestion as we think it is the optimal course of action at the moment. I specifically indicated that this was a temporary measure for the duration of their more important work. At then of this period (whose duration was given explicitly) they could return to their normal procedures. As to what others suggested - due to my accent, it is rather difficult for me to both keep my speaking clear and understandable and also spice it with intonation and intent. In fact, if AnnSan, Cotty, Bob W, Mike Wilson or Jostein would chime in here - it would be cool - they spoke to me in person. I also spoke on the phone with Rob, Bill Robb and Bob S. Surely next time I will be more deliberate about my wording. At least I would try to use more neutral variations so as to at least remove any possibility of imperativeness when talking to customers. In principle I should lay in front of them a number of options and they should make their choice how to proceed. It is good to be a PDMLer even if one's native language is not English :-). Thanks a whole lot! Boris On 2/1/2010 5:10 PM, Morris Galloway wrote: I suggest versus Perhaps we could proceed One American's analysis. Among general professionals in the central U.S. If Boris Liberman is in upper management speaking to those in middle management, then I suggest would have 10% more of the Imperative. Among peers it would be perceived as an option awaiting the opportunity for other options to be presented. If used by middle management to upper management it might be considered brash or bold. Among Lawyers it would simply be considered as an option. But then we are a rather thick-skinned profession. Wow! Perhaps English is becoming a language similar to Diplomatic French. Zut Alors! Galloway. I suggest might have 10% more -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
Oh, that's a very good suggestion ;-). Thanks, Tom. Your advice in fact is most valuable. Boris On 2/1/2010 7:57 PM, Tom C wrote: As a consultant I tend to present options and then suggest the one I personally feel is best. I make it a rule never to say things more than twice, because the client is 'always right'. If I have an idea I express it once. If I feel strongly about, I express it a second time. A third time invariably will make me look like the kind of person I am. An overbearing opinionated pedantic prima donna (so I don't do that). After that if the client has me do things the wrong way, I'm a hero for getting the job done on time, the first time. When they realize there's a problem and I then suggest the fix, I'm a hero for getting the job done right, the second time. I was a hero twice and got paid twice. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
On 2/2/2010 1:23 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: Boris, We have spoken by phone and your English is good, but not as clear as your written words. This is what I suspected. Well, my understanding is that to correct that I will have to spend considerable time (more than a single vacation, for example) among English speaking people. I suspected the situation was as you described - Dilbert vs the Product Manager/Marketer. Tom C. had good advice. Don't say anything more than twice. Don't use the word 'suggest' more than twice, find something else. This poses particular problems when two languages are involved. There is always the problem of mis-understanding by either party. Regards, Bob S. It is also a matter of willing to go that extra mile from both parties - me trying to be as clear as possible and them being aware that they are not talking to one of their (linguistic) peers. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: English, American version
- Original Message - From: Boris Liberman Subject: Re: English, American version Thanks, Morris. This is fascinating analysis. Here is my situation. I came as an engineer (think - Dilbert) along with the project manager (mid-to-high management, also non-native speaker, but probably more experienced in this specific kind of verbal kung-fu) and worked with both my parallels (system operator and IT person of the company we visited) and also lower-mid managers and some higher ranked boss whose true rank I fail to comprehend. My lame excuse was that in fact I was rather occupied all the time with the technical situation and simply said what I meant - that I suggest that in order to solve the problem they have they do this and don't do that. I indicated that they could do otherwise, but that we would advise them to stick to our suggestion as we think it is the optimal course of action at the moment. I specifically indicated that this was a temporary measure for the duration of their more important work. At then of this period (whose duration was given explicitly) they could return to their normal procedures. As to what others suggested - due to my accent, it is rather difficult for me to both keep my speaking clear and understandable and also spice it with intonation and intent. In fact, if AnnSan, Cotty, Bob W, Mike Wilson or Jostein would chime in here - it would be cool - they spoke to me in person. I also spoke on the phone with Rob, Bill Robb and Bob S. Surely next time I will be more deliberate about my wording. At least I would try to use more neutral variations so as to at least remove any possibility of imperativeness when talking to customers. In principle I should lay in front of them a number of options and they should make their choice how to proceed. It is good to be a PDMLer even if one's native language is not English :-). Thanks a whole lot! Boris Good Lord. A native Russian who now lives in Isreal doesn't speak English according to some local idiom. To top it off, yor are a bonafide pocket protector wearing computer geek. I think it's wonderful that I can communicate with you at all. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
