Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/24/2010 3:29 PM, paul stenquist wrote:

On Jan 24, 2010, at 3:14 PM, steve harley wrote:

   

On 2010-01-24 13:01 , Ken Waller wrote:
 

Around here, you don't choose to join homeowner's associations - they
come with the house (in most sub divisions) - not joining means no house.
   

i'm so glad i live in an urban neighborhood whose diversity is itself seen as a 
major attraction, and where displays of individuality are not only tolerated, 
they are relished

in the interior west of the USA there persists a spirit of independence; it has been 
abandoned in the landscape of the suburban "projects" as i call them, the mass 
developments of the last 40 years or so; however the urbs, the older suburbs, and the 
exurbs and small towns are largely without restrictions on expression; so one _does_ have 
a choice
 

Plenty of older suburbs have homeowner's associations, and some of them have odious 
restrictions. Some poor urban neighborhoods have introduced similar covenants in an 
effort to combat blight. Most of the high-rise condominiums in New York and San Francisco 
have owner associations that impose restrictions on what residents can do. Some are much 
stricter than any suburban homeowner's association. "No pets" is a common 
restriction.  t's all a matter of what's important to the residents.
   


It really depends on how active the homeowners association wants to be.  
I know of at least one where the association is defunct.   If that 
happens I would guess all association covenants are void.




(the downside of this western freedom is that too few see value in investing in 
the collective welfare and future)

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/24/2010 3:14 PM, steve harley wrote:

On 2010-01-24 13:01 , Ken Waller wrote:


Around here, you don't choose to join homeowner's associations - they
come with the house (in most sub divisions) - not joining means no 
house.


i'm so glad i live in an urban neighborhood whose diversity is itself 
seen as a major attraction, and where displays of individuality are 
not only tolerated, they are relished


in the interior west of the USA there persists a spirit of 
independence; it has been abandoned in the landscape of the suburban 
"projects" as i call them, the mass developments of the last 40 years 
or so; however the urbs, the older suburbs, and the exurbs and small 
towns are largely without restrictions on expression; so one _does_ 
have a choice


(the downside of this western freedom is that too few see value in 
investing in the collective welfare and future)


Freedom must be tempered with responsibility, if you teach one without 
the other you get anarchy which seems to be where we're headed.



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[paul stenquist]

On Jan 24, 2010, at 3:14 PM, steve harley wrote:

> On 2010-01-24 13:01 , Ken Waller wrote:
>> 
>> Around here, you don't choose to join homeowner's associations - they
>> come with the house (in most sub divisions) - not joining means no house.
> 
> i'm so glad i live in an urban neighborhood whose diversity is itself seen as 
> a major attraction, and where displays of individuality are not only 
> tolerated, they are relished
> 
> in the interior west of the USA there persists a spirit of independence; it 
> has been abandoned in the landscape of the suburban "projects" as i call 
> them, the mass developments of the last 40 years or so; however the urbs, the 
> older suburbs, and the exurbs and small towns are largely without 
> restrictions on expression; so one _does_ have a choice

Plenty of older suburbs have homeowner's associations, and some of them have 
odious restrictions. Some poor urban neighborhoods have introduced similar 
covenants in an effort to combat blight. Most of the high-rise condominiums in 
New York and San Francisco have owner associations that impose restrictions on 
what residents can do. Some are much stricter than any suburban homeowner's 
association. "No pets" is a common restriction.  t's all a matter of what's 
important to the residents. 
> 
> (the downside of this western freedom is that too few see value in investing 
> in the collective welfare and future)
> 
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[steve harley]

On 2010-01-24 13:01 , Ken Waller wrote:


Around here, you don't choose to join homeowner's associations - they
come with the house (in most sub divisions) - not joining means no house.


i'm so glad i live in an urban neighborhood whose diversity is itself 
seen as a major attraction, and where displays of individuality are not 
only tolerated, they are relished


in the interior west of the USA there persists a spirit of independence; 
it has been abandoned in the landscape of the suburban "projects" as i 
call them, the mass developments of the last 40 years or so; however the 
urbs, the older suburbs, and the exurbs and small towns are largely 
without restrictions on expression; so one _does_ have a choice


(the downside of this western freedom is that too few see value in 
investing in the collective welfare and future)


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "P. J. Alling" 

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



On 1/20/2010 8:31 AM, paul stenquist wrote:

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:19 AM, William Robb wrote:



- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


We're not even allowed to do it in my community. I guess some consider 
it an eyesore.


If you had the interest to check into it, I bet you'd find that the 
laundry machine lobbyists had a behind the scenes hand in it.



No, it's a local rule passed by the homeowners association and applies 
just to a few hundred homes here. If I cared enough, I'd hang laundry 
anyway. Association rules are non-enforcable. They're more or less 
voluntary. But by breaking them, you run the risk of upsetting your 
neighbors.

Paul



In some places you can be subject to civil suit for breaking association 
rules.


The homeowners association will eventually put a lien on you property if 
they are so inclined.




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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "P. J. Alling" 

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


It's banned by some homeowners associations, and some municipal 
governments in the US at least.  I wouldn't live in a town that did that 
and I certainly wouldn't join any homeowners association regardless.


Around here, you don't choose to join homeowner's associations - they come 
with the house (in most sub divisions) - not joining means no house.




On 1/20/2010 2:17 AM, David Mann wrote:

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:



Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.


It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.

Dave



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/21/2010 8:40 AM, David Savage wrote:

2010/1/21 William Robb:
   

- Original Message - From: "David Mann" Subject: Re: OT - how to
guarantee you luggage won't be lost


 

On Jan 21, 2010, at 2:20 AM, John Sessoms wrote:

   

Tell that to your "Home Owners Association" ...
 

Why do people put up with such shit?

   

It's all done in the name of freedom and liberty.
 

At least they have their guns.

DS
   

Shooting homeowners association members in peacetime is frowned upon.

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

You ask to much, life is.  Humans are a lot more altruistic than could 
possibly be expected from the behavior of all other known life.


On 1/20/2010 3:10 PM, Bob W wrote:

  >  In the US it is against most home owner's association
   

bylaws to do
 

so. Kerry>  was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a
"clothesline out the>  back" when she moved here 10 years ago.


Not even in your own back-yard? Incredible.
   

Home owner's associations.  Making suburbia suck...just a
little bit more.

 

You should tell them to f_ck off to Switzerland where people like that sort
of thing.

Bob


   



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/20/2010 8:31 AM, paul stenquist wrote:

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:19 AM, William Robb wrote:

   

- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



 
 

We're not even allowed to do it in my community. I guess some consider it an 
eyesore.
   

If you had the interest to check into it, I bet you'd find that the laundry 
machine lobbyists had a behind the scenes hand in it.

 

No, it's a local rule passed by the homeowners association and applies just to 
a few hundred homes here. If I cared enough, I'd hang laundry anyway. 
Association rules are non-enforcable. They're more or less voluntary. But by 
breaking them, you run the risk of upsetting your neighbors.
Paul
   


In some places you can be subject to civil suit for breaking association 
rules.



   

William Robb

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/20/2010 8:20 AM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: David Mann

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:

> Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.


It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.

Dave


Tell that to your "Home Owners Association" ... story from my "own 
back yard" so to speak (figuratively WRAL is the local TV station)



http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2119468/

There have been stories of homeowners associations going after people 
flying flags they didn't approve of.


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

It's banned by some homeowners associations, and some municipal 
governments in the US at least.  I wouldn't live in a town that did that 
and I certainly wouldn't join any homeowners association regardless.


On 1/20/2010 2:17 AM, David Mann wrote:

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:

   

Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.
 

It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.

Dave

   



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[frank theriault]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 1:01 AM, Stan Halpin
 wrote:

> You are letting facts (actual impact on real estate value) confuse you. The 
> issue is one of perception. In the early days of Americans' move from the 
> Cities to the Suburbs,  part of the incentive was to appear to be "higher 
> class". Ruffians and naer-do-wells let their grass grow too long, paint their 
> houses garish colors, cannot afford modern conveniences like electric dryers 
> and thus  hang their clothes out to dry, cannot afford a proper mechanic and 
> thus do car repair in their drive, etc. The way to avoid ruffians and 
> naer-do-wells therefore obviously is to ban signs of such behavior. At least 
> that way you avoid the appearance of being around such people. In one of the 
> early (1920's) developments in the Kansas City area, the developer objected 
> to the look of garages with open doors, and he wrote a prohibition on open 
> doors into the covenants. And on Sundays he and his family would go for a 
> drive, checking for open doors along the way. Here in the Wild West, the 
> attitude is that I can do whatever I want, and everyone else had better do 
> what I want as well. He with the fastest gun or biggest wallet wins.


I think you hit the nail on the head, Stan.  The inner cities of the
early 20th Century were lawless, chaotic, dangerous places.  The
suburbs were places where young families could move to and raise their
children in safety, away from the horrors and squalor of The Big City.

The way to ensure safety is order, the way to maintain order is
control.  It's not ~just~ about appearances, it's lifestyle.  Think
the suburban subdivision in Edward Scissorhands...

cheers,
frank


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Stan Halpin]

> On Jan 21, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Rob Studdert wrote:
> 
> As I mentioned earlier we have laws and local government to manage
> these sorts of issue but the inference that keeping clothes off lines
> or other ridiculous limitations will somehow preserve the value of
> real estate is pure bunk. We have one of the most robust and least
> affordable real estate markets here and clothes on lines in the
> majority of back-yards. Every second back-yard in Sydney features a
> rotary clothes line such as a Hills hoist (easy to see using Google
> Earth)

You are letting facts (actual impact on real estate value) confuse you. The 
issue is one of perception. In the early days of Americans' move from the 
Cities to the Suburbs,  part of the incentive was to appear to be "higher 
class". Ruffians and naer-do-wells let their grass grow too long, paint their 
houses garish colors, cannot afford modern conveniences like electric dryers 
and thus  hang their clothes out to dry, cannot afford a proper mechanic and 
thus do car repair in their drive, etc. The way to avoid ruffians and 
naer-do-wells therefore obviously is to ban signs of such behavior. At least 
that way you avoid the appearance of being around such people. In one of the 
early (1920's) developments in the Kansas City area, the developer objected to 
the look of garages with open doors, and he wrote a prohibition on open doors 
into the covenants. And on Sundays he and his family would go for a drive, 
checking for open doors along the way. Here in the Wild West, the attitude is 
that I can do whatever I want, and everyone else had better do what I want as 
well. He with the fastest gun or biggest wallet wins. 

As I mentioned, I live in an old 1837 farmhouse not at all like my neighbors. I 
didn't have much choice about its location - if I wanted the house, I accepted 
the Home's Association covenants. However, the Association mows and otherwise 
takes care of all lawns. My 80,000 sq. ft. of lawn is mowed as often as my 
neighbors' 400 sq. ft. areas, and I pay the same per-household dues that they 
do. And I have the use of the pool, the tennis courts, and other amenities. It 
balances out.

Several have mentioned putting liens on property as a way of enforcing 
Association rules. We regularly do that in cases of people who don't pay their 
Association dues. 5-10 years later, when they sell or the property is 
foreclosed, we may receive what is due if there is any left after the mortgage 
holder is paid. It is not a very efficient enforcement mechanism.

stan


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Rob Studdert]

On 22/01/2010, Ken Waller  wrote:

> I didn't have to, I could have gone elsewhere, but the homeowner
> associations I'm aware of have similar restrictions.
>
> Its all due to human nature and the lack of respect most people have for
> their neighbors (among other things)

As I mentioned earlier we have laws and local government to manage
these sorts of issue but the inference that keeping clothes off lines
or other ridiculous limitations will somehow preserve the value of
real estate is pure bunk. We have one of the most robust and least
affordable real estate markets here and clothes on lines in the
majority of back-yards. Every second back-yard in Sydney features a
rotary clothes line such as a Hills hoist (easy to see using Google
Earth)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hills_hoist
http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf

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Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "David Mann" 


Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



On Jan 21, 2010, at 2:20 AM, John Sessoms wrote:


Tell that to your "Home Owners Association" ...


Why do people put up with such shit?


I didn't have to, I could have gone elsewhere, but the homeowner 
associations I'm aware of have similar restrictions.


Its all due to human nature and the lack of respect most people have for 
their neighbors (among other things)




We have too many rules as it is, and I don't see how hanging laundry in my 
back yard is going to de-value anyone's property.  Some people need to 
seriously get a life, and some other people need to grow some balls and 
tell them where to shove it.


FWIW there are similar covenants (written by covens I guess) starting to 
appear in this city as part of newer property developments.  But I don't 
know exactly how far they extend.


Dave



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[John Francis]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 07:12:18AM -0500, Christian wrote:
> Stan Halpin wrote:
>> Also, no exterior TV antennas or sat dishes, 
>
> The FCC ruled several years ago that an HOA cannot make rules  
> restricting TV antennas or satellite dishes.  Otherwise no one would be  
> able to have DirecTV.

Not quite.   The ruling said a HOA couldn't simply ban DirecTV, say.
But they could make rules about where you placed the antenna.  If it
was entirely within your space (on a patio, for example) then it was
OK, but you still couldn't stick the satellite dish on an outside wall,
because that was in the shared space.



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[John Sessoms]

From: John Francis

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 03:20:48PM -0500, Ken Waller wrote:

>
> I haven't delved into this much more than a superficial level, but I can  
> tell from experience its due to what some homeowners do in some  
> subdivisions.  You wouldn't believe what homeowners would do to their  
> property if left to their own devices. How about a tree house on the 
> front lawn - in a sub division, or outlandish exterior colors, 
> dismantling old cars in the street, storing all sorts of items out in the 
> open for months/years?


The last two are illegal here (San Jose, California).
As for house colo(u)rs - I got a few comments from my neighbours when
I repainted my house in something other than the ubiquitous pastels:

http://panix.com/~johnf/temp/MyNewCar1.jpg


The house next door reminds me of an old joke ...

Q: What's the difference between a prostitute, a mistress and a wife?

A: The prostitute says "Aren't you done yet?"
   The mistress says "Are you done already?"

...And the wife says "Beige, I think I'll paint the garage beige." ;-D

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[David Savage]

2010/1/21 William Robb :
>
> - Original Message - From: "David Mann" Subject: Re: OT - how to
> guarantee you luggage won't be lost
>
>
>> On Jan 21, 2010, at 2:20 AM, John Sessoms wrote:
>>
>>> Tell that to your "Home Owners Association" ...
>>
>> Why do people put up with such shit?
>>
>
> It's all done in the name of freedom and liberty.

At least they have their guns.

DS

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Mann" 
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




On Jan 21, 2010, at 2:20 AM, John Sessoms wrote:


Tell that to your "Home Owners Association" ...


Why do people put up with such shit?



It's all done in the name of freedom and liberty.

William Robb

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Christian]

Stan Halpin wrote:
Also, no exterior TV antennas or sat dishes, 


The FCC ruled several years ago that an HOA cannot make rules 
restricting TV antennas or satellite dishes.  Otherwise no one would be 
able to have DirecTV.



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[David Mann]

On Jan 21, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

> Here's a breathtaking vista from the North Island of New Zealand,
> complete with laundry.
> 
> http://picasaweb.google.com/rf.sullivan/NorthIslandNewZealand#4999302824687304722

That laundry is *so* spoiling the view.  And they need to mow the lawn.



Dave
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[David Mann]

On Jan 21, 2010, at 2:20 AM, John Sessoms wrote:

> Tell that to your "Home Owners Association" ...

Why do people put up with such shit?

We have too many rules as it is, and I don't see how hanging laundry in my back 
yard is going to de-value anyone's property.  Some people need to seriously get 
a life, and some other people need to grow some balls and tell them where to 
shove it.

FWIW there are similar covenants (written by covens I guess) starting to appear 
in this city as part of newer property developments.  But I don't know exactly 
how far they extend.

Dave
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Add maize trim & you'd be very welcome in Ann Arbor, Michigan - Go Blue

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "John Francis" 

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 03:20:48PM -0500, Ken Waller wrote:


I haven't delved into this much more than a superficial level, but I can
tell from experience its due to what some homeowners do in some
subdivisions.  You wouldn't believe what homeowners would do to their
property if left to their own devices. How about a tree house on the
front lawn - in a sub division, or outlandish exterior colors,
dismantling old cars in the street, storing all sorts of items out in the
open for months/years?


The last two are illegal here (San Jose, California).
As for house colo(u)rs - I got a few comments from my neighbours when
I repainted my house in something other than the ubiquitous pastels:

   http://panix.com/~johnf/temp/MyNewCar1.jpg



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "Stan Halpin" 

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


Also, no exterior TV antennas or sat dishes, no unusual exterior colors, 
fencing only of a specified height and construction, only for small areas 
around the "patio" area, etc. etc.
In our association, I live in the old farmhouse (1837 vintage) whose 
previous owner plus 2 sold the land that became the development of 
duplexes and townhouses. We hang our clothes outside to dry from time to 
time, we drive on the grass, we basically ignore the rules. But most of 
the neighbors don't know that we are even subject to the rules, so we 
aren't setting a bad example. I've been on the Association Board of 
Directors off and on for many years, currently president, and I long ago 
learned that the rules are for show only. The Association is toothless 
when it tries to enforce anything.




My association has placed liens on homeowners not in compliance. They can't 
sell their property without taking care of the lien.



stan

On Jan 20, 2010, at 7:21 AM, Rob Studdert wrote:


On 20/01/2010, Christian  wrote:

In the US it is against most home owner's association bylaws to do so. 
Kerry

was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a "clothesline out the
back" when she moved here 10 years ago.


Not even in your own back-yard? Incredible.

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Stan Halpin]

Also, no exterior TV antennas or sat dishes, no unusual exterior colors, 
fencing only of a specified height and construction, only for small areas 
around the "patio" area, etc. etc.
In our association, I live in the old farmhouse (1837 vintage) whose previous 
owner plus 2 sold the land that became the development of duplexes and 
townhouses. We hang our clothes outside to dry from time to time, we drive on 
the grass, we basically ignore the rules. But most of the neighbors don't know 
that we are even subject to the rules, so we aren't setting a bad example. I've 
been on the Association Board of Directors off and on for many years, currently 
president, and I long ago learned that the rules are for show only. The 
Association is toothless when it tries to enforce anything.

stan

On Jan 20, 2010, at 7:21 AM, Rob Studdert wrote:

> On 20/01/2010, Christian  wrote:
> 
>> In the US it is against most home owner's association bylaws to do so. Kerry
>> was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a "clothesline out the
>> back" when she moved here 10 years ago.
> 
> Not even in your own back-yard? Incredible.
> 
> -- 
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "frank theriault"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



 A homeowner's association took a family to court for
flying a Canadian flag and the court struck down the covenant and
allowed him to be patriotic.



It's amazing that the Supreme Court didn't step in and overturn the lower 
court.

Patriotism is strictly forbidden.

William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[frank theriault]

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:36 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:

> They are semi-enforceable. If you signed the covenant when you bought the
> house and agreed to abide by homeowner's association rules, they can enforce
> it as a contract. Break the rules = breach of contract.
>
> They can get a court order forcing you to conform to the rules.
>
> In some places, the homeowner's association rules gain force of law by being
> enacted as zoning ordinances. That's what they're trying to do around here
> because my neighborhood doesn't have a homeowner's association.
>
> They tried to form one, but I told them I wasn't interested; that if they
> did form one around me, I refused to be bound by their rules; and suggested
> that if they continued to bother me with that crap I would ... Uh,
> demonstrate the depth of my objection in a tangible manner.

They're called restrictive covenants and they're registered on title
by the developer at the time the lots are subdivided.  They run with
the land, so by purchasing the land and registering the deed you are
agreeing to be bound by it.  You do not have to sign a contract with
anyone, it's just "there" with the land.

The homeowners association enforces them, but really, they have
nothing to do with instituting them.  They can only be enforced by
suing for breach of contract in court.

I recall hearing that the restrictive covenants against clothes lines
came about because they were seen as an eyesore in a "modern suburb",
the thought being that clothes lines were seen as a lower class thing,
in inner city slums and such.

A court will strike down a restrictive covenant in some cases.  I seem
to recall one that restricted homeowners from putting a flagpoles on
their property.  A homeowner's association took a family to court for
flying a Canadian flag and the court struck down the covenant and
allowed him to be patriotic.

cheers,
frank

-- 
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "John Francis"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




The last two are illegal here (San Jose, California).
As for house colo(u)rs - I got a few comments from my neighbours when
I repainted my house in something other than the ubiquitous pastels:

   http://panix.com/~johnf/temp/MyNewCar1.jpg


I'd complain too. That blue is hideous beside the red Mini.

William Robb

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[John Francis]

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 03:20:48PM -0500, Ken Waller wrote:
>
> I haven't delved into this much more than a superficial level, but I can  
> tell from experience its due to what some homeowners do in some  
> subdivisions.  You wouldn't believe what homeowners would do to their  
> property if left to their own devices. How about a tree house on the 
> front lawn - in a sub division, or outlandish exterior colors, 
> dismantling old cars in the street, storing all sorts of items out in the 
> open for months/years?

The last two are illegal here (San Jose, California).
As for house colo(u)rs - I got a few comments from my neighbours when
I repainted my house in something other than the ubiquitous pastels:

http://panix.com/~johnf/temp/MyNewCar1.jpg


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Christian]

Rob Studdert wrote:


Frankly I can't see
any justification for preventing people from drying clothes in their
own private back-yard (especially in light of the ridiculous energy
waste).



The town i live in now had a bad water shortage a couple of years ago 
and encourages homeowners to collect rain water from every downspout on 
their houses and gives a small tax incentive to do so.  My home-owners 
association allows a maximum of 2 rain barrels and only in the back.  I 
live within the town limits and they encourage conservation yet my HOA 
limits what I can do.  Unfortunately the HOA is the final authority so I 
have to comply with them or get a lein on my house.  Of course now that 
my deck has been approved and built, my neighbors and I are going to 
challenge all the dumb "architectural" by-laws.


--

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Bob Sullivan]

Here's a breathtaking vista from the North Island of New Zealand,
complete with laundry.

http://picasaweb.google.com/rf.sullivan/NorthIslandNewZealand#4999302824687304722

Obvously, there were no homeowner associations in this neighborhood.

Regards,  Bob S.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 1:17 AM, David Mann  wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:
>
>> Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.
>
> It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.
>
> Dave
>
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Rob Studdert]

On 21/01/2010, Ken Waller  wrote:

> I haven't delved into this much more than a superficial level, but I can
> tell from experience its due to what some homeowners do in some
> subdivisions.  You wouldn't believe what homeowners would do to their
> property if left to their own devices. How about a tree house on the front
> lawn - in a sub division, or outlandish exterior colors, dismantling old
> cars in the street, storing all sorts of items out in the open for
> months/years?
> These all have an effect on real estate values, especially in a grouping of
> houses. In a perfect world, association rules against these things wouldn't
> be necessary.

That's all dealt with under building codes and local council
regulations here, it's more to do with safety and health than anything
else though. I think the only regulations regarding outside clothes
drying here are in unit (multi-story) complexes. Frankly I can't see
any justification for preventing people from drying clothes in their
own private back-yard (especially in light of the ridiculous energy
waste).

-- 
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Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "William Robb" 


Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


We're not even allowed to do it in my community. I guess some consider it 
an eyesore.


If you had the interest to check into it, I bet you'd find that the 
laundry machine lobbyists had a behind the scenes hand in it.


I haven't delved into this much more than a superficial level, but I can 
tell from experience its due to what some homeowners do in some 
subdivisions.  You wouldn't believe what homeowners would do to their 
property if left to their own devices. How about a tree house on the front 
lawn - in a sub division, or outlandish exterior colors, dismantling old 
cars in the street, storing all sorts of items out in the open for 
months/years?
These all have an effect on real estate values, especially in a grouping of 
houses. In a perfect world, association rules against these things wouldn't 
be necessary.
BTW enforcement of these rules are generally lax, but in my sub it will 
eventually result in a lein on you house.




William Robb



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RE: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Bob W]

> >  > In the US it is against most home owner's association 
> bylaws to do 
> > so. Kerry  > was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a 
> > "clothesline out the  > back" when she moved here 10 years ago.
> >
> >
> > Not even in your own back-yard? Incredible.
> 
> Home owner's associations.  Making suburbia suck...just a 
> little bit more.
> 

You should tell them to f_ck off to Switzerland where people like that sort
of thing.

Bob


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[John Sessoms]

From: paul stenquist

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:19 AM, William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist" Subject: Re:
OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost






We're not even allowed to do it in my community. I guess some
consider it an eyesore.


If you had the interest to check into it, I bet you'd find that
the laundry machine lobbyists had a behind the scenes hand in it.



No, it's a local rule passed by the homeowners association and
applies just to a few hundred homes here. If I cared enough, I'd hang
laundry anyway. Association rules are non-enforcable. They're more or
less voluntary. But by breaking them, you run the risk of upsetting
your neighbors. Paul



They are semi-enforceable. If you signed the covenant when you bought 
the house and agreed to abide by homeowner's association rules, they can 
enforce it as a contract. Break the rules = breach of contract.


They can get a court order forcing you to conform to the rules.

In some places, the homeowner's association rules gain force of law by 
being enacted as zoning ordinances. That's what they're trying to do 
around here because my neighborhood doesn't have a homeowner's association.


They tried to form one, but I told them I wasn't interested; that if 
they did form one around me, I refused to be bound by their rules; and 
suggested that if they continued to bother me with that crap I would ... 
Uh, demonstrate the depth of my objection in a tangible manner.



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Scott Loveless]

On 1/20/10, Rob Studdert  wrote:
> On 20/01/2010, Christian  wrote:
>
>  > In the US it is against most home owner's association bylaws to do so. 
> Kerry
>  > was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a "clothesline out the
>  > back" when she moved here 10 years ago.
>
>
> Not even in your own back-yard? Incredible.

Home owner's associations.  Making suburbia suck...just a little bit more.

-- 
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Mark Roberts]

paul stenquist wrote:
 
>But nothing smells as good as laundry that dried outdoors on a breezy summer 
>day.

...except napalm in the morning!


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist" 


Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




On Jan 20, 2010, at 2:17 AM, David Mann wrote:


On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:


Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.


It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.

We're not even allowed to do it in my community. I guess some consider it 
an eyesore.
But nothing smells as good as laundry that dried outdoors on a breezy 
summer day. And of course it reminds me of my childhood in the fifties, 
when everyone here dried their laundry outdoors.


Ditto..



Paul

Dave



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Christian]

Rob Studdert wrote:

On 20/01/2010, Christian  wrote:


In the US it is against most home owner's association bylaws to do so. Kerry
was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a "clothesline out the
back" when she moved here 10 years ago.


Not even in your own back-yard? Incredible.



Nope.

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[paul stenquist]

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:19 AM, William Robb wrote:

> 
> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
> Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
> 
> 
> 
>>> 
>> We're not even allowed to do it in my community. I guess some consider it an 
>> eyesore.
> 
> If you had the interest to check into it, I bet you'd find that the laundry 
> machine lobbyists had a behind the scenes hand in it.
> 
No, it's a local rule passed by the homeowners association and applies just to 
a few hundred homes here. If I cared enough, I'd hang laundry anyway. 
Association rules are non-enforcable. They're more or less voluntary. But by 
breaking them, you run the risk of upsetting your neighbors.
Paul

> William Robb 
> 
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[David Savage]

2010/1/20 Rob Studdert :
> On 20/01/2010, Christian  wrote:
>
>> In the US it is against most home owner's association bylaws to do so. Kerry
>> was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a "clothesline out the
>> back" when she moved here 10 years ago.
>
> Not even in your own back-yard? Incredible.

That nucking futs.

DS

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost





We're not even allowed to do it in my community. I guess some consider it 
an eyesore.


If you had the interest to check into it, I bet you'd find that the laundry 
machine lobbyists had a behind the scenes hand in it.


William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Rob Studdert]

On 20/01/2010, Christian  wrote:

> In the US it is against most home owner's association bylaws to do so. Kerry
> was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a "clothesline out the
> back" when she moved here 10 years ago.

Not even in your own back-yard? Incredible.

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[John Sessoms]

From: David Mann

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:

> Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.


It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.

Dave


Tell that to your "Home Owners Association" ... story from my "own back 
yard" so to speak (figuratively WRAL is the local TV station)



http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2119468/

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[paul stenquist]

On Jan 20, 2010, at 2:17 AM, David Mann wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:
> 
>> Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.
> 
> It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.
> 
We're not even allowed to do it in my community. I guess some consider it an 
eyesore. 
But nothing smells as good as laundry that dried outdoors on a breezy summer 
day. And of course it reminds me of my childhood in the fifties, when everyone 
here dried their laundry outdoors.

Paul
> Dave
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Christian]

David Mann wrote:

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:


Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.


It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.

Dave



In the US it is against most home owner's association bylaws to do so. 
Kerry was so disappointed to find out we couldn't have a "clothesline 
out the back" when she moved here 10 years ago.



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[David Mann]

On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:38 AM, P N Stenquist wrote:

> Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to dry.

It strikes me as odd that someone would find that unusual.

Dave

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P N Stenquist]

On Jan 19, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Bob W wrote:



Don't confuse Aussie Dave Savage, with Kiwi Dave Mann.  Kiwi
Dave is merely gloating that NZ was never a penal colony,
unlike so many other former British possessions.



New Zealand is where British people go when they want to live in the  
1950s.



Americans too!
I love the south island. Folks hang their laundry on clothes lines to  
dry. There are no superhighways. And everyone I  met during my three  
weeks of work on the island was very nice. Throw in spectacular  
mountains, beautiful streams and lakes, lots of coast line, and you  
have a 1950s paradise. Fabulous.

Paul

Bob


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RE: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Bob W]

> 
> Don't confuse Aussie Dave Savage, with Kiwi Dave Mann.  Kiwi 
> Dave is merely gloating that NZ was never a penal colony, 
> unlike so many other former British possessions.
> 

New Zealand is where British people go when they want to live in the 1950s.

Bob


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Anthony Farr]

2010/1/19 P. J. Alling :
>
>
> I kind of thought that you threw off the English yoke, freed the prisoners
> and such...
>
>

Don't confuse Aussie Dave Savage, with Kiwi Dave Mann.  Kiwi Dave is
merely gloating that NZ was never a penal colony, unlike so many other
former British possessions.

regards, Anthony

   "Of what use is lens and light
to those who lack in mind and sight"
   (Anon)

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Christian"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost





I kind of thought that you threw off the English yoke, freed the 
prisoners and such...





The Queen is still on their money...  'nuff said! :-)


There's a lot of good things to be said about a Consitutional Monarchy, 
providing the Queen (or her representative) would do their bloody jobs.


William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Christian]

P. J. Alling wrote:

On 1/18/2010 2:03 AM, David Mann wrote:

On Jan 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:

  

Didn't Australia used to be a free country?
 

Only until the English turned up and used it as a prison.

Dave
   
I kind of thought that you threw off the English yoke, freed the 
prisoners and such...





The Queen is still on their money...  'nuff said! :-)

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

But I don't want to talk politics. I have photos to take.


Mark !

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "P N Stenquist" 


Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




On Jan 18, 2010, at 9:40 AM, William Robb wrote:



- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




And Germany was a secure country until 1939.




As an aside Paul, do you think Europe would have been a more secure  
or less place to live from 1939 to 1945 if Germany had had no guns?


I don't have strong feelings one way or another on issues of gun  
control, but I do know that Europe would have been -- and is -- a much  
more secure place to live without Hitler. So too, the middle east will  
ultimately be more secure without Sadaam, whose ambitions, rhetoric  
and genocidal actions were much akin to those of the German dictator.


I only responded to this because you were US-bashing again. But I  
don't want to talk politics. I have photos to take.


Done.
Paul



William Robb



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RE: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[John Sessoms]

Hmmm ... Y'all need to remember there's only about 308,509,715 of us (as 
of 11:30 am EST this morning),


... which means there's at least 617,019,430 different opinions on just 
about any subject you can think of.


There's a few people who like having guns around, and there's a few who 
don't. And there's a few of us who think the RIGHT to have guns is 
important, even while we don't actually want to have guns around.


About the only thing we do agree on is the government is doing something 
we don't like with our tax money, even if we can't agree on exactly what 
that something is.


Don't make the mistake that the government of the U.S. is the same thing 
as the people of the U.S. ... although that's what it's supposed to be.


Practice doesn't work as well as theory most of the time.

From: "Tanya Love"
Well said, Bill!  :) 


-Original Message-
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of
William Robb
Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 9:37 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


----- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Studdert"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



> On 18/01/2010, P. J. Alling  wrote:
>

>> Didn't Australia used to be a free country?

>
> Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of  ;-) 


Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a gun 
barrel.


William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[David Savage]

2010/1/19 P. J. Alling :
> On 1/18/2010 2:03 AM, David Mann wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Didn't Australia used to be a free country?
>>>
>>
>> Only until the English turned up and used it as a prison.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
> I kind of thought that you threw off the English yoke, freed the prisoners
> and such...

We're still part of The Commonwealth and Queen Elizabeth II is still
officially our head of state.

But that doesn't concern me. They can have their grey rock, and I'll
enjoy our red one surrounded by warm water:



Not a bad way to spend a 43°C summers day: scuba diving & enjoying all
the scenery on offer.

DS

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/18/2010 2:03 AM, David Mann wrote:

On Jan 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:

   

Didn't Australia used to be a free country?
 

Only until the English turned up and used it as a prison.

Dave
   
I kind of thought that you threw off the English yoke, freed the 
prisoners and such...



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/18/2010 9:40 AM, William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




And Germany was a secure country until 1939.




As an aside Paul, do you think Europe would have been a more secure or 
less place to live from 1939 to 1945 if Germany had had no guns?


William Robb

The German Army had guns. For the German subject, guns were strictly 
controlled and registered, and German Jews had their private firearms 
confiscated in 1938 when Gun ownership for Jews, was made illegal.


An individual even armed with a machine gun can do only limited damage, 
and army with machine guns is another matter.


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P N Stenquist]

On Jan 18, 2010, at 9:40 AM, William Robb wrote:



- Original Message - From: "paul stenquist"
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




And Germany was a secure country until 1939.




As an aside Paul, do you think Europe would have been a more secure  
or less place to live from 1939 to 1945 if Germany had had no guns?


I don't have strong feelings one way or another on issues of gun  
control, but I do know that Europe would have been -- and is -- a much  
more secure place to live without Hitler. So too, the middle east will  
ultimately be more secure without Sadaam, whose ambitions, rhetoric  
and genocidal actions were much akin to those of the German dictator.


I only responded to this because you were US-bashing again. But I  
don't want to talk politics. I have photos to take.


Done.
Paul



William Robb

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




And Germany was a secure country until 1939.




As an aside Paul, do you think Europe would have been a more secure or less 
place to live from 1939 to 1945 if Germany had had no guns?


William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist" 
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost






Security sure does.


Apparently Iraq was a secure country until 2003.

And Germany was a secure country until 1939.


And Canada is still a secure country.
Are you trying to make a point?

William Robb

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[paul stenquist]

On Jan 18, 2010, at 8:06 AM, William Robb wrote:

> 
> - Original Message - From: "Ken Waller"
> Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
> 
> 
> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Didn't Australia used to be a free country?
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)
>>> 
>>> Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a gun 
>>> barrel.
>> 
>> Security sure does.
> 
> Apparently Iraq was a secure country until 2003.
And Germany was a secure country until 1939.
> 
> William Robb 
> 
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Waller"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost






Didn't Australia used to be a free country?


Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)


Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a gun 
barrel.


Security sure does.


Apparently Iraq was a secure country until 2003.

William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[David Mann]

On Jan 18, 2010, at 9:08 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:

> Didn't Australia used to be a free country?

Only until the English turned up and used it as a prison.

Dave

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "William Robb" 


Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Studdert"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



On 18/01/2010, P. J. Alling  wrote:


Didn't Australia used to be a free country?


Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)


Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a gun 
barrel.


Security sure does.



William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist" 
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost







Well said, Bill! :)


In truth, it's a cliche.


I'm sure that from where you sit, that's all it is, too.

William Robb

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[paul stenquist]

On Jan 17, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Tanya Love wrote:

> Well said, Bill! :)
> 
In truth, it's a cliche.

> -Original Message-
> From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of
> William Robb
> Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 9:37 AM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
> 
> 
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Studdert"
> Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
> 
> 
>> On 18/01/2010, P. J. Alling  wrote:
>> 
>>> Didn't Australia used to be a free country?
>> 
>> Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)
> 
> Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a gun 
> barrel.
> 
> William Robb 
> 
> 
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RE: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Tanya Love]

Well said, Bill! :)

-Original Message-
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of
William Robb
Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 9:37 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Studdert"
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


> On 18/01/2010, P. J. Alling  wrote:
>
>> Didn't Australia used to be a free country?
>
> Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)

Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a gun 
barrel.

William Robb 


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/17/2010 6:36 PM, William Robb wrote:


- Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert"
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



On 18/01/2010, P. J. Alling  wrote:


Didn't Australia used to be a free country?


Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)


Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a 
gun barrel.


William Robb

Freedom comes from the heart, slavery comes from a gun barrel, after 
those with heart are all dead.


However I just commenting on the damned form, no society that can demand 
that kind of crap from a citizen can pretend to have citizens.


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[paul stenquist]

On Jan 17, 2010, at 7:20 PM, William Robb wrote:

> 
> - Original Message - From: "paul stenquist" Subject: Re: OT - how to 
> guarantee you luggage won't be lost
> 
> 
> 
>> Sieg Heil! Without the gun barrel, you'd all be goos-stepping.
> 
> Well, that thread's done.
Har!

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "paul stenquist" 
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost






Sieg Heil! 
Without the gun barrel, you'd all be goos-stepping.




Well, that thread's done.


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[paul stenquist]

On Jan 17, 2010, at 7:02 PM, Rob Studdert wrote:

> On 18/01/2010, paul stenquist  wrote:
> 
>> Sieg Heil!
>> Without the gun barrel, you'd all be goos-stepping.
> 
> Our Army has guns,

Good to hear!

> Austrian of course, my brother (ex red beret) says
> they jam a lot!
> 
Can't have everything. Never trust an Austrian. Wait, I'm an Austrian! (Half 
anyway:-)
Paul

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_AUG
> 
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Rob Studdert]

On 18/01/2010, paul stenquist  wrote:

> Sieg Heil!
> Without the gun barrel, you'd all be goos-stepping.

Our Army has guns, Austrian of course, my brother (ex red beret) says
they jam a lot!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_AUG

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[paul stenquist]

On Jan 17, 2010, at 6:36 PM, William Robb wrote:

> 
> - Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert"
> Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
> 
> 
>> On 18/01/2010, P. J. Alling  wrote:
>> 
>>> Didn't Australia used to be a free country?
>> 
>> Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)
> 
> Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a gun 
> barrel.
> 
Sieg Heil! 
Without the gun barrel, you'd all be goos-stepping.

> William Robb 
> 
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Studdert"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



On 18/01/2010, P. J. Alling  wrote:


Didn't Australia used to be a free country?


Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)


Americans still haven't figured out that freedom doesn't come from a gun 
barrel.


William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Rob Studdert]

On 18/01/2010, P. J. Alling  wrote:

> Didn't Australia used to be a free country?

Yes, there's a lot of things we're free of ;-)

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/16/2010 5:37 PM, Rob Studdert wrote:

On 17/01/2010, Christian  wrote:

   

I originally posted the video with a very detailed account of how to travel
with guns to protect your other valuables like electronics and camera gear.
The guy in the video never mentioned Australia but did mention that he
traveled outside the US with the same techniques.  The TSA is not allowed
to, BY LAW, open luggage that has been locked and has the firearms
stickers/documentation all over it.  It is up to the check-in counter to
verify what's in the luggage before the passenger locks it.  It seems like a
great idea especially when you consider that a flare gun is classified as a
firearm.
 

Here you need to apply and purchase a permit and also have a safe for
storage etc, I personally wouldn't try to bring any kind of firearm
into Oz.

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/133228/fact_sheet_starting_pistol_permit.pdf
   

Didn't Australia used to be a free country?


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Rob Studdert]

On 17/01/2010, Christian  wrote:

> I originally posted the video with a very detailed account of how to travel
> with guns to protect your other valuables like electronics and camera gear.
> The guy in the video never mentioned Australia but did mention that he
> traveled outside the US with the same techniques.  The TSA is not allowed
> to, BY LAW, open luggage that has been locked and has the firearms
> stickers/documentation all over it.  It is up to the check-in counter to
> verify what's in the luggage before the passenger locks it.  It seems like a
> great idea especially when you consider that a flare gun is classified as a
> firearm.

Here you need to apply and purchase a permit and also have a safe for
storage etc, I personally wouldn't try to bring any kind of firearm
into Oz.

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/133228/fact_sheet_starting_pistol_permit.pdf

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Christian]

Rob Studdert wrote:

On 16/01/2010, Bob Sullivan  wrote:

Ken,
Interesting. That website was using the weapon to lock out TSA.


I don't think I'd be willing to test the theory outside the USA.



I originally posted the video with a very detailed account of how to 
travel with guns to protect your other valuables like electronics and 
camera gear.  The guy in the video never mentioned Australia but did 
mention that he traveled outside the US with the same techniques.  The 
TSA is not allowed to, BY LAW, open luggage that has been locked and has 
the firearms stickers/documentation all over it.  It is up to the 
check-in counter to verify what's in the luggage before the passenger 
locks it.  It seems like a great idea especially when you consider that 
a flare gun is classified as a firearm.


--

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http://404mohawknotfound.blogspot.com/

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Rob Studdert]

On 16/01/2010, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> Ken,
> Interesting. That website was using the weapon to lock out TSA.

I don't think I'd be willing to test the theory outside the USA.

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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Bob Sullivan]

Ken,
Interesting. That website was using the weapon to lock out TSA.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Ken Waller  wrote:
> Bob -
> On my last trip to Alaska in 04, I packed my tripod (in a heavy cardboard
> tube) in a duffel bag with some clothes. The tripod tube was sealed with
> body tape (helicopter tape). the duffel was locked with a large padlock.
> Unpacking in Denali, I noticed the tape was disturbed & had been removed &
> reinstalled on the tube, nothing else was out of the ordinary. I called the
> airline & was advised it was most likely opened by the TSA - probably
> because of the rigid cardboard tube inside. The airline stated the TSA has
> the ability to open any locked container.
>
> The same situation was noted with the duffel upon my return back to
> Michigan. I again called the airline, to check on the story I had been given
> previously & was again told by the airline that the TSA had the ability to
> open any locked container.
>
>
> Kenneth Waller
> http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f
>
> ----- Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" 
> Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
>
>
>> Ken,
>> I don't know if this is the same site, but somebody here posted a site
>> on how to transport guns in your luggage.  It was pretty detailed and
>> included your choice of locks that TSA couldn't open.  You checked-in
>> at the front counter declaring the gun, showed it as not loaded, and
>> the author used a big metal ammo case with sturdy locks and labels.
>> Apparently anything that shoots a projectile must be
>> declared/transported this way.  The author suggested it as a strategy
>> to be able to lock your baggage against TSA search...just throw in a
>> pistol with your cameras and underwear.  I'd guess it gets some pretty
>> special handling from the airlines.
>> Regards,  Bob S.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Ken Waller  wrote:
>>>
>>> Kenneth Waller
>>> http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Igor Roshchin" 
>>> Subject: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
>>>>
>>>> I found this great idea.
>>>> How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
>>>> You don't even need a real firearm.
>>>>
>>>> http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or
>>>
>>> Sounds good but from experience, I know that any lock can be opened by
>>> the
>>> TSA - so much for security !
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It can be great for the safety of your photo-gear - if you ever have
>>>> to check it in.
>>>>
>>>> YMMV.
>>>>
>>>> Igor
>
>
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[frank theriault]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Bob W  wrote:

> Let me know when you're coming through Heathrow with one of those - I want
> to come and watch.

Don't forget to bring your camera, Bob.

cheers,
frank


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

On 1/15/2010 5:01 PM, Ken Waller wrote:


Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - From: "John Sessoms" 
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



From: "Ken Waller"

From: "Igor Roshchin"

>
> I found this great idea.
> How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
> You don't even need a real firearm.
>
> http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or


Sounds good but from experience, I know that any lock can be opened 
by the TSA - so much for security !




I thought the extra security came because the TSA knows there's a 
"weapon" in the bag, lock it for you and keep careful track of it.


Seems a little tongue in cheekish to me. Just because TSA is going to 
make sure they know exactly where your bag is doesn't mean the 
airline will actually manage to get it on the plane with you.


Also doesn't mean someone @ TSA wouldn't steal from the locked 
container - a neat way to get a weapon.


That's the point, they know where it is at all times and who has it.  
Stealing it would be a quick route to unemployment and prison since the 
number of suspects would be strictly limited.






But, the TSA will know WHERE your bag got misrouted to.

Reminds me of a joke about checked baggage I heard comedian Alan King 
tell on the Tonight Show years ago. He said something like "I flew 
into LA, but my baggage got a week's vacation in Hawaii."






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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[P. J. Alling]

The TSA has the ability, but when transporting a weapon, if it's been 
properly declared, they're not allowed to by law.  I don't know about 
traveling outside the US.


On 1/15/2010 4:55 PM, Ken Waller wrote:

Bob -
On my last trip to Alaska in 04, I packed my tripod (in a heavy 
cardboard tube) in a duffel bag with some clothes. The tripod tube was 
sealed with body tape (helicopter tape). the duffel was locked with a 
large padlock. Unpacking in Denali, I noticed the tape was disturbed & 
had been removed & reinstalled on the tube, nothing else was out of 
the ordinary. I called the airline & was advised it was most likely 
opened by the TSA - probably because of the rigid cardboard tube 
inside. The airline stated the TSA has the ability to open any locked 
container.


The same situation was noted with the duffel upon my return back to 
Michigan. I again called the airline, to check on the story I had been 
given previously & was again told by the airline that the TSA had the 
ability to open any locked container.



Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" 
Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



Ken,
I don't know if this is the same site, but somebody here posted a site
on how to transport guns in your luggage.  It was pretty detailed and
included your choice of locks that TSA couldn't open.  You checked-in
at the front counter declaring the gun, showed it as not loaded, and
the author used a big metal ammo case with sturdy locks and labels.
Apparently anything that shoots a projectile must be
declared/transported this way.  The author suggested it as a strategy
to be able to lock your baggage against TSA search...just throw in a
pistol with your cameras and underwear.  I'd guess it gets some pretty
special handling from the airlines.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Ken Waller  
wrote:


Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - From: "Igor Roshchin" 
Subject: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


I found this great idea.
How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
You don't even need a real firearm.

http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or


Sounds good but from experience, I know that any lock can be opened 
by the

TSA - so much for security !



It can be great for the safety of your photo-gear - if you ever have
to check it in.

YMMV.

Igor






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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "John Sessoms" 

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



From: "Ken Waller"

From: "Igor Roshchin"

>
> I found this great idea.
> How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
> You don't even need a real firearm.
>
> http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or


Sounds good but from experience, I know that any lock can be opened by 
the TSA - so much for security !




I thought the extra security came because the TSA knows there's a "weapon" 
in the bag, lock it for you and keep careful track of it.


Seems a little tongue in cheekish to me. Just because TSA is going to make 
sure they know exactly where your bag is doesn't mean the airline will 
actually manage to get it on the plane with you.


Also doesn't mean someone @ TSA wouldn't steal from the locked container - a 
neat way to get a weapon.




But, the TSA will know WHERE your bag got misrouted to.

Reminds me of a joke about checked baggage I heard comedian Alan King tell 
on the Tonight Show years ago. He said something like "I flew into LA, but 
my baggage got a week's vacation in Hawaii."



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Bob -
On my last trip to Alaska in 04, I packed my tripod (in a heavy cardboard 
tube) in a duffel bag with some clothes. The tripod tube was sealed with 
body tape (helicopter tape). the duffel was locked with a large padlock. 
Unpacking in Denali, I noticed the tape was disturbed & had been removed & 
reinstalled on the tube, nothing else was out of the ordinary. I called the 
airline & was advised it was most likely opened by the TSA - probably 
because of the rigid cardboard tube inside. The airline stated the TSA has 
the ability to open any locked container.


The same situation was noted with the duffel upon my return back to 
Michigan. I again called the airline, to check on the story I had been given 
previously & was again told by the airline that the TSA had the ability to 
open any locked container.



Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan" 

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



Ken,
I don't know if this is the same site, but somebody here posted a site
on how to transport guns in your luggage.  It was pretty detailed and
included your choice of locks that TSA couldn't open.  You checked-in
at the front counter declaring the gun, showed it as not loaded, and
the author used a big metal ammo case with sturdy locks and labels.
Apparently anything that shoots a projectile must be
declared/transported this way.  The author suggested it as a strategy
to be able to lock your baggage against TSA search...just throw in a
pistol with your cameras and underwear.  I'd guess it gets some pretty
special handling from the airlines.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Ken Waller  wrote:


Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - From: "Igor Roshchin" 
Subject: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost


I found this great idea.
How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
You don't even need a real firearm.

http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or


Sounds good but from experience, I know that any lock can be opened by 
the

TSA - so much for security !



It can be great for the safety of your photo-gear - if you ever have
to check it in.

YMMV.

Igor



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Mark Roberts]

John Sessoms wrote:

>Reminds me of a joke about checked baggage I heard comedian Alan King 
>tell on the Tonight Show years ago. He said something like "I flew into 
>LA, but my baggage got a week's vacation in Hawaii."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGAD1uTR1SY


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[John Sessoms]

From: "Ken Waller"

From: "Igor Roshchin"

>
> I found this great idea.
> How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
> You don't even need a real firearm.
>
> http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or


Sounds good but from experience, I know that any lock can be opened by the 
TSA - so much for security !




I thought the extra security came because the TSA knows there's a 
"weapon" in the bag, lock it for you and keep careful track of it.


Seems a little tongue in cheekish to me. Just because TSA is going to 
make sure they know exactly where your bag is doesn't mean the airline 
will actually manage to get it on the plane with you.


But, the TSA will know WHERE your bag got misrouted to.

Reminds me of a joke about checked baggage I heard comedian Alan King 
tell on the Tonight Show years ago. He said something like "I flew into 
LA, but my baggage got a week's vacation in Hawaii."


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Bob Sullivan]

Ken,
I don't know if this is the same site, but somebody here posted a site
on how to transport guns in your luggage.  It was pretty detailed and
included your choice of locks that TSA couldn't open.  You checked-in
at the front counter declaring the gun, showed it as not loaded, and
the author used a big metal ammo case with sturdy locks and labels.
Apparently anything that shoots a projectile must be
declared/transported this way.  The author suggested it as a strategy
to be able to lock your baggage against TSA search...just throw in a
pistol with your cameras and underwear.  I'd guess it gets some pretty
special handling from the airlines.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Ken Waller  wrote:
>
> Kenneth Waller
> http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f
>
> - Original Message - From: "Igor Roshchin" 
> Subject: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
>
>
>>
>> I found this great idea.
>> How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
>> You don't even need a real firearm.
>>
>> http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or
>
> Sounds good but from experience, I know that any lock can be opened by the
> TSA - so much for security !
>
>>
>> It can be great for the safety of your photo-gear - if you ever have
>> to check it in.
>>
>> YMMV.
>>
>> Igor
>>
>>
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Ken Waller]

Kenneth Waller
http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f

- Original Message - 
From: "Igor Roshchin" 

Subject: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost




I found this great idea.
How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
You don't even need a real firearm.

http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or


Sounds good but from experience, I know that any lock can be opened by the 
TSA - so much for security !




It can be great for the safety of your photo-gear - if you ever have
to check it in.

YMMV.

Igor


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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Tom C]

LOL.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 11:46 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Tom C"
> Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost
>
>
>> I've always wanted to take 1/2 dozen candles bundled with a ribbon,
>> attach an old fashiond alarm clock on top with more ribbon, box it and
>> take it though security.  It's just a gift for my wife.
>
> And here I thought you loved her and wanted to spend the rest of your life
> with her.
>
> William Robb
>
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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C"

Subject: Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost



I've always wanted to take 1/2 dozen candles bundled with a ribbon,
attach an old fashiond alarm clock on top with more ribbon, box it and
take it though security.  It's just a gift for my wife.


And here I thought you loved her and wanted to spend the rest of your life 
with her.


William Robb 



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Re: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Tom C]

I've always wanted to take 1/2 dozen candles bundled with a ribbon,
attach an old fashiond alarm clock on top with more ribbon, box it and
take it though security.  It's just a gift for my wife.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Bob W  wrote:
>> I found this great idea.
>> How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
>> You don't even need a real firearm.
>>
>> http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or
>>
>> It can be great for the safety of your photo-gear - if you
>> ever have to check it in.
>>
>> YMMV.
>>
>> Igor
>
> Let me know when you're coming through Heathrow with one of those - I want
> to come and watch.
>
> Bob
>
>
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RE: OT - how to guarantee you luggage won't be lost

[Bob W]

> I found this great idea. 
> How to guarantee your luggage won't be lost? pack a pistol.
> You don't even need a real firearm.
> 
> http://bakadesuyo.com/how-to-guarantee-your-luggage-wont-be-lost-or
> 
> It can be great for the safety of your photo-gear - if you 
> ever have to check it in.
> 
> YMMV.
> 
> Igor

Let me know when you're coming through Heathrow with one of those - I want
to come and watch.

Bob


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