Re: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Piotr Duszynski]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:52:21PM +1100, Josh G wrote:
> I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
> good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
> any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying
> scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at
> my resume ;-)
> 
> This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
> an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
> make here, which is more like US$20/hr

Hmm. I get about $250 a month! And I don't think that I'm bad programmer...
But this is Poland - Another World :(
-- 

Piotr Duszynski

http://www.softomat.com.pl
http://filmomat.3miasto.pl 
http://www.3miasto.pl

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Randy Katz]

sounds like you cannot afford NOT to have a second wife! DANG! Some
folk have all the luck :!

On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 09:25:35AM +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote:
> 
> > Hah!  My wife has a formal education in graphics design.  My web sites
> > would look like crap without her extensive layout skills.  :) I'm so
> > lucky...
> Ah! kindered spirit 
> 
> My wife has a formal education in Mass Communication and Public Relations 
> I wouldn't be in bussiness if she was not able make presentations to drum
> up clients !
> 
> BUT we still lack a graphic designer - don't  think I can afford a second
> wife ;-)
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Tarique
> 
> 
> -- 
> =
>B2B Application Providers
> http://www.sanisoft.com
>  Vortal for Nagpur http://nagpurcity.net
> =
> 
> 
> -- 
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Richard Lynch]

> So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just
starting?

Dart board :-)

--
Visit the Zend Store at http://www.zend.com/store/
Wanna help me out?  Like Music?  Buy a CD: http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm
Volunteer a little time: http://chatmusic.com/volunteer.htm



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Richard Lynch]

> Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
> rates in this manner?
>
> It's always been my understanding that
> The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
> of pricing between competitors (all or some)
> a federal offense.
>
> Am I taking this too literally?

I think so.

First of all, this isn't a US-only forum.
Secondly, the point is to avoid price-fixing.  Given the current status of
the web-design industry, there are far, far too many wannabes out there for
any real price-fixing to be effective.
Thirdly, the variance already presented is rather wide.
Fourthly, this is a public forum where consumers are also welcome to
contribute their thoughts on these pricings, rather than a non-public
collusion of only one side of the potential transactions.
Finally, why don't we wait until the DOJ actually complains about it, after
they finished breaking up Microsoft :-)  More seriously, I don't think the
DOJ is going to take a dim view of this thread, even if they noticed.



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[John Meyer]

Interesting, that, since I will be graduating with majors in Computer
Information Systems _and_ Mass Communications, but I still need a graphic
artist.

Does anybody where I can get a good wife? *JK*

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:56 PM
To: johnny p.
Cc: Jerry Lake; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote:

> Hah!  My wife has a formal education in graphics design.  My web sites
> would look like crap without her extensive layout skills.  :) I'm so
> lucky...
Ah! kindered spirit

My wife has a formal education in Mass Communication and Public Relations
I wouldn't be in bussiness if she was not able make presentations to drum
up clients !

BUT we still lack a graphic designer - don't  think I can afford a second
wife ;-)


Cheers

Tarique


--
=
   B2B Application Providers
http://www.sanisoft.com
 Vortal for Nagpur http://nagpurcity.net
=


--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk]

> So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just
starting?

Actually you don`t. I doubt very many of us actually know what would be
the only right price to set, I think there`s no such thing. It`s
negotiable, usually. You just have to sell youreself, think of some
company you could sell your services to, make some written offer, don`t
send it to the company, go and talk to the boss of it, explain him what he
would gain from it, tell him/her everything you can to make him/her
interested (but don´t lie). Once you get his attention, you can start
talking about the price. You first ask them if they were be interested in
the project offer you made them. If yes, just ask what would be affordable
to them, ask enough questions to get to know what they would be ready to
pay. They probably don´t want to tell you anything about the price, but
try to read between the lines and then make them an offer, "would $... be
acceptable for you?". If not, keep talking until you have agreed on
something.

Well, yes it isn´t as easy at it my seem, it isn´t easy at all, but that`s
one possibility. And I think this kind of approach should go mainly for
small-medium sized businesses. And it`s just for starters.

Siim Einfeldt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk]

>Ok, I just started my own company and finished work for my first client
>(shameless plug here: http://www.alamosawinecellars.com).  The problem I
>had wasn't in pricing my work by what it's worth and how much time I put
>in it, but pricing it in a way that would work for my client.  I ended
>up making roughly $10/hr., maybe less, for the effort, but I ended up
>with an extra $1000 in the bank. 

Actually when thinking about the projects which I`m making for one
company, 
they end up being 10/h (not $) as well. 

>The part of the
>project that took all my time is in a backend admin tool that allows the
>client to update their pages whenever they need. The data is all stored
>in a mysql db.  

I know, that part takes most of my time as well, but I`m working on some
good 
template which would make my future jobs easier and cheaper as well (for
the clients).

>Anyways, I have noticed that for some clients, like my
>first, charging too much will lose them. 

Right. Usually, when dealing with companies I aleady know, I first listen
them out, give my suggestions and views about it, ask what they think
about them, and then ask if the sum is ok for them (the sum that I have
thought about). I usually give a bit higher one first, I guess quite many
of us do it, many companies like to get the price lower, even if it wasn´t
high at all, so now as I have the possibility to lower the sum, I will do
it. But still, you can´t set the price too low, I would suggest never to
do it, maybe only for friends (for them, why not for free).

>For other clients, like medium
>sized companies, charging too little will send them hunting for someone
>else. 

You are probably right. But as a freelance, you can sometimes afford
asking them maybe even 3-4times less than some big web development company
would. 

>And also, everything can be negotiated.

One of my mottos:-)


Siim Einfeldt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote:

> Hah!  My wife has a formal education in graphics design.  My web sites
> would look like crap without her extensive layout skills.  :) I'm so
> lucky...
Ah! kindered spirit 

My wife has a formal education in Mass Communication and Public Relations 
I wouldn't be in bussiness if she was not able make presentations to drum
up clients !

BUT we still lack a graphic designer - don't  think I can afford a second
wife ;-)


Cheers

Tarique


-- 
=
   B2B Application Providers
http://www.sanisoft.com
 Vortal for Nagpur http://nagpurcity.net
=


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Dave VanAuken]

1) talk to the customer,  in person if at all possible - get a CLEAR
picture of exactly what they want.
2) write down every aspect of what they want
3) take each element of the site and estimate how many hours it will
take you to accomplish it.
4) double the amount (your customer will cause that)
5) take those hours (for example 40 hours) and estimate how much of
that time will account for your required monthly revenue.
6) bill that amount (divide by the number of hours if you want to use
an hourly rate).

that will do you untill you start hiring a number of people.

As you go along you will be able to narrow down the estimated time
involved.

Make sure the customer knows exactly what you are providing for the
amount they are paying.



Another thing to consider in this whole discussion...  the longer you
code, the faster you produce and the less error catching (or tracking)
you have to do...  thus what takes a new programmer/developer 10 hours
to accomplish may only take a seasoned developer with a handful of
code snippets 3 hours.

so while mr junior programmer may charge $25 per hour and $250 for a
quick code change, the more experienced programmer can charge $80 per
hour and bill the same total...  comparing apples and oranges.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: Wade D [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just
starting?




-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Ask the first client if they know of anyone who could utilize your skills.
As an IC, you are more than just a coder; you are the marketing,
sales, finance, and programming departments.  Look online, post
your resume, apply for jobs.  In your application cover letter,
state that you are fully qualified for the position (if you are) and
let them know that you're available for contract work if that is
acceptable to them.  Go ahead and apply for the "full time"
or "permanent" positions.  Sometimes just getting your name out
there and recognized can be invaluable.

Not recommended for everyone, but it's worked for me a fair bit -
develop a "hook."  Something that sticks, something different,
something.memorable.  I started early, and "szii" was an intentionally
hard name to type to pkill on a MUD (unless you type correctly, which
many didn't.)  *laugh*  There's too many "Mike Oxford" types running
around, and "Szii" seems to stick pretty well...so I use it. *shrug*

-Szii/Mike


- Original Message -
From: stankusn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


> Ok.I want to start doing outside (extra) contract
work...independantly.
> I have had only
> one clientthey loved the work.and I am having problems finding
> more...I think I am just not looking in the right spotwhere would be a
> good spot to drum up bussinessdoesn't have to be a place onlinebut
> how did everyone get so many customers? Where do you get them?
>
> nick
> ---
> Nick.Stankus
> Software Engineer
> Logicon/Sterling Federal
> 402-232-7870
> ---
> "There are two things that are infinite; Human stupidity and the
> universe. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Wade D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
> | When in doubt, go low - esp when you're just starting out.  If you're a
> good
> | coder, start at USD$20.  You may go from there once you're more
> comfortable
> | with the process, have a small list of clientele, and have refined your
> | working environment (it's a little different than working for a
company.)
> | If you start too high, you risk prematurely damaging your reputation, as
> well
> | as having difficulty finding clients.  Some places, like here in
> | California, you
> | need to stay within the "going rate" which is all over the place for a
> coder.
> | You'll have to evaluate it on a job-by-job basis.  If you're starting
out,
> | I wouldn't
> | go above $60/hr, but it's entirely up to you.  If you don't contract on
a
> | per project
> | basis, and stick to an hourly rate you have the option of raising that
> rate
> | at a
> | later time.  If you do it on a per project basis, you can simply raise
the
> | rate
> | between projects.  If you're too high, and have to come down it looks
bad.
> | Tactfully done, it can give the subtle illusion that they're getting a
> | "good deal"
> | on you.  It's all about image at the negotiating table, and -percieved-
> value.
> | After that it's up to you to make it happen.
> |
> | Above all, watch them taxes.  Independent Contractors get hit (in the
US)
> | with a business tax as well as the expected income tax.  1099-MISC
> | income (ie, independent contract work) can really be a nasty shock if
> | you don't account for the extra tax.  When I was first starting out, my
> first
> | year, I didn't know about it and ended up approx $10k in debt, as well
as
> | being penalized for not making quarterly tax payments.  Not a big debt,
> | but it was definately an unwelcome shock come April 15th.
> |
> | In this field your reputation is EVERYTHING.  The customer is always
> right,
> | and you should do everything you can to make them FEEL good.  Even if
> | thing's aren't going okay, as soon as they start doubting your skill,
your
> | decisions, they may doubt using you. If they like you they'll return,
> | and often times will refer you to other companies.  It's all about great
> code
> | and a "warm fuzzy" for the client.
> |
> | 'Luck
> |
> | -Szii
> |
> | At 11:23 AM 2/2/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> | >So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just
&g

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk]

> Obviously I want to be profitable.  But my primary motivation is to be doing
> challenging work, to enjoy what I'm doing and to build software that makes
> my clients happy.  Sure, we could be like this other company and charge
> $100,000 for a project that's worth $5,000 but we won't do that.  Why?
> Because it will inevitably come back to haunt us.  In this business you have
> little more than your knowledge and your reputation and a tarnished
> reputation won't get you far.  YMMV.

  Well, I`m actually no ripper either, the $100,000 and $5000 example is
actually a little extreme as well. But what i just wanted to say is that
we shouldn`t accept the minimum, but rather add just a bit to the
sum. This is probably mainly just because I unfortunately do not do enough
planning work, but for me most of the works kind of get to go bigger than
they were ment to be. I`m not talking about new features (though these
may come too, but that`s already another story), but rather just something
that you thought will be easy to handle and then it turns out to be much
bigger problem, but then it`s already a bit bigger problem to get the
client pay more. 

  Yes, I admit, probably that`s mainly my problem, but usually I get
*little* jobs, which take week or a few and well, if I wanted to prepare
it real well, then it would be +day or more. And there`s usually just not
enough time, though I`m seriously considering doing it differently,
better.

  Just some time ago (2 months to be exact), I was asked if I would be
ready to take a small little one week project. At the time I was just
staring to make money with php+mysql, so I trusted the web design firm
which gave me the job. But it came out that it`s really, really big
project actually. I`m still working on it and hope to get it ready in some
days. 

  Anyway, what am I saying here...it`s probably something to myself, start
writing project descriptions!

  And as to talking about this one. Could you tell me how you usually
prepare for projects, how long do your projects take on the average?

> Again, I think we're talking about different kinds of clients.  

  Well, I just brought an example.

> energy or expertise to make a qualified decision.  My experience is that a
> lot of these type of clients only speak to 1 to 3 firms.  And these other
> firms are often not qualified - they don't understand the business world or
> don't even do programming.  In fact, last week I spoke to the head of a
  
  You`re probably right about that, got to agree with you on this one.  

> > when talking about programming and php, well, you just can`t say it, can
> > you? Most of the projects can be done even over the internet, no problems.
> 
> My reality is different than your reality.  I don't know if I want to trade
> places or not.  
   
  Well, if you`re talking about telecommuting, then this is actually quite
good way of working, for both parties. Firms get to pay a bit lower wages,
no extra offices needed, etc and programmer, he can do it wherever he
wants to. I`m working myself this way and I must say there`s nothing wrong
with it. For firms it might be a bit frightening thought at first, but I
know some pretty successful companies who`s programmers, almost all of
them work out of office. 
 
  And about that 5000 and 10 again, as i said, this difference is a
bit too big to talk about. And actually I was talking about it just
theoretically, I don`t charge my clients amounts that make them go broke,
not at all, just few days ago made an offer to one real estate company, I
once made them a cheap site, just in html, poor desig, etc and now, a year 
they wanted to improve it, make a total redesign and make the adding of
houses, etc easier (keyword is database+php)+some more features. I made
them a offer which I wasn`t sure about whether it would be too much or
not. And they said yes withou thinking at all. Then I started
thinking...if they would have gone to some firm, instead of talking to me
(freelancer), they would have paid probably 3times more. So I`m not saying
that we should take all we can get, but rather we should take the amount
that we are ready to work for+some extra, which can be cut off, if the
client doesn`t agree with the first offer. 

> Amen.  If you do good work for a fair price and make the experience
> pleasurable for your clients the work will come.  It's like any business.
> People want to work with people they like and if your customers like you
> they'll mention you to others.

  Exactly

Siim Einfeldt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[johnny p.]

Hah!  My wife has a formal education in graphics design.  My web sites
would look like crap without her extensive layout skills.  :) I'm so
lucky...

johnny p.

> -Original Message-
> From: Jerry Lake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:11 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
> Yep, ain't it grand...
> I got hired on as a designer
> and somebody got the bright idea
> that I must be a programmer as well
> funny I don't remember that on my resume.
>
> Jerry Lake- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Web Designer
> Europa Communications - http://www.europa.com
> Pacifier Online   - http://www.pacifier.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robin Vickery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:43 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
> >>>>> "JG" == "Josh G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>  > I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
>  > good programmer, and a good graphic designer.
>
> I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a
> php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're
> quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's
> not something that's generally expected from other professions
> (when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that
> required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers?
>
>
>   -robin (who can't draw for toffee)
>
>
> --
> Robin Vickery.
> BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[johnny p.]

I agree.  I have a separate maintenance agreement for additional changes
and updates and charge them a pre-specified hourly rate.

thanks for the advice... been bit a couple times before, tho.  good for
others to read.

johnny p.

> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Oien [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:37 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
> johnny this is great to start out but if you keep doing it
> you will find
> that you will get a lot of bad clients who don't value your work and
> expect you to do a lot of extra stuff for free or request endless
> changes. That's typical of clients who look for extremely low cost
> work. Be sure to set limits on what you will do and make sure
> they value your work and trust you. Otherwise you will be driven
> to insanity in time. Nice site BTW.
> Jeff Oien
>
> > Ok, I just started my own company and finished work for my
> first client
> > (shameless plug here: http://www.alamosawinecellars.com).
> The problem I
> > had wasn't in pricing my work by what it's worth and how
> much time I put
> > in it, but pricing it in a way that would work for my
> client.  I ended
> > up making roughly $10/hr., maybe less, for the effort, but
> I ended up
> > with an extra $1000 in the bank.  If I wanted to charge
> more, I would
> > have had to take a walk and look for another client.  My
> price wasn't
> > based on an hourly rate, but on the project and my client's
> company size
> > and ability to come up with enough to cover my time.  The
> part of the
> > project that took all my time is in a backend admin tool
> that allows the
> > client to update their pages whenever they need.  The data
> is all stored
> > in a mysql db.  Anyways, I have noticed that for some
> clients, like my
> > first, charging too much will lose them.  For other
> clients, like medium
> > sized companies, charging too little will send them hunting
> for someone
> > else.  Very bizarre environment to work in, but my suggestion is to
> > judge your prices based on the client's perspective.  Interview the
> > client and try to get an idea of what they're looking for.
> Look at what
> > the client thinks they're getting.  Use anything you can to find out
> > what the client's price range is and then set your prices
> in the middle.
> > And also, everything can be negotiated.
> >
> > my 2 cents...
> >
> > johnny p.
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[stankusn]

Ok.I want to start doing outside (extra) contract work...independantly.
I have had only
one clientthey loved the work.and I am having problems finding
more...I think I am just not looking in the right spotwhere would be a
good spot to drum up bussinessdoesn't have to be a place onlinebut
how did everyone get so many customers? Where do you get them?

nick
---
Nick.Stankus
Software Engineer
Logicon/Sterling Federal
402-232-7870
---
"There are two things that are infinite; Human stupidity and the
universe. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Wade D" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


| When in doubt, go low - esp when you're just starting out.  If you're a
good
| coder, start at USD$20.  You may go from there once you're more
comfortable
| with the process, have a small list of clientele, and have refined your
| working environment (it's a little different than working for a company.)
| If you start too high, you risk prematurely damaging your reputation, as
well
| as having difficulty finding clients.  Some places, like here in
| California, you
| need to stay within the "going rate" which is all over the place for a
coder.
| You'll have to evaluate it on a job-by-job basis.  If you're starting out,
| I wouldn't
| go above $60/hr, but it's entirely up to you.  If you don't contract on a
| per project
| basis, and stick to an hourly rate you have the option of raising that
rate
| at a
| later time.  If you do it on a per project basis, you can simply raise the
| rate
| between projects.  If you're too high, and have to come down it looks bad.
| Tactfully done, it can give the subtle illusion that they're getting a
| "good deal"
| on you.  It's all about image at the negotiating table, and -percieved-
value.
| After that it's up to you to make it happen.
|
| Above all, watch them taxes.  Independent Contractors get hit (in the US)
| with a business tax as well as the expected income tax.  1099-MISC
| income (ie, independent contract work) can really be a nasty shock if
| you don't account for the extra tax.  When I was first starting out, my
first
| year, I didn't know about it and ended up approx $10k in debt, as well as
| being penalized for not making quarterly tax payments.  Not a big debt,
| but it was definately an unwelcome shock come April 15th.
|
| In this field your reputation is EVERYTHING.  The customer is always
right,
| and you should do everything you can to make them FEEL good.  Even if
| thing's aren't going okay, as soon as they start doubting your skill, your
| decisions, they may doubt using you. If they like you they'll return,
| and often times will refer you to other companies.  It's all about great
code
| and a "warm fuzzy" for the client.
|
| 'Luck
|
| -Szii
|
| At 11:23 AM 2/2/2001 -0600, you wrote:
| >So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just
starting?
| >
| >
| >_
| >Do You Yahoo!?
| >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
| >
| >
| >--
| >PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
| >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| >To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| >
|
| --
| PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
| To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[szii]

When in doubt, go low - esp when you're just starting out.  If you're a good
coder, start at USD$20.  You may go from there once you're more comfortable
with the process, have a small list of clientele, and have refined your 
working environment (it's a little different than working for a company.)
If you start too high, you risk prematurely damaging your reputation, as well
as having difficulty finding clients.  Some places, like here in
California, you
need to stay within the "going rate" which is all over the place for a coder.
You'll have to evaluate it on a job-by-job basis.  If you're starting out,
I wouldn't
go above $60/hr, but it's entirely up to you.  If you don't contract on a
per project
basis, and stick to an hourly rate you have the option of raising that rate
at a 
later time.  If you do it on a per project basis, you can simply raise the
rate
between projects.  If you're too high, and have to come down it looks bad.
Tactfully done, it can give the subtle illusion that they're getting a
"good deal"
on you.  It's all about image at the negotiating table, and -percieved- value.
After that it's up to you to make it happen. 

Above all, watch them taxes.  Independent Contractors get hit (in the US)
with a business tax as well as the expected income tax.  1099-MISC 
income (ie, independent contract work) can really be a nasty shock if 
you don't account for the extra tax.  When I was first starting out, my first
year, I didn't know about it and ended up approx $10k in debt, as well as
being penalized for not making quarterly tax payments.  Not a big debt,
but it was definately an unwelcome shock come April 15th.

In this field your reputation is EVERYTHING.  The customer is always right,
and you should do everything you can to make them FEEL good.  Even if
thing's aren't going okay, as soon as they start doubting your skill, your
decisions, they may doubt using you. If they like you they'll return, 
and often times will refer you to other companies.  It's all about great code
and a "warm fuzzy" for the client.

'Luck

-Szii

At 11:23 AM 2/2/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just starting?
>
>
>_
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>-- 
>PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Jeff Oien]

johnny this is great to start out but if you keep doing it you will find
that you will get a lot of bad clients who don't value your work and
expect you to do a lot of extra stuff for free or request endless 
changes. That's typical of clients who look for extremely low cost
work. Be sure to set limits on what you will do and make sure
they value your work and trust you. Otherwise you will be driven
to insanity in time. Nice site BTW.
Jeff Oien

> Ok, I just started my own company and finished work for my first client
> (shameless plug here: http://www.alamosawinecellars.com).  The problem I
> had wasn't in pricing my work by what it's worth and how much time I put
> in it, but pricing it in a way that would work for my client.  I ended
> up making roughly $10/hr., maybe less, for the effort, but I ended up
> with an extra $1000 in the bank.  If I wanted to charge more, I would
> have had to take a walk and look for another client.  My price wasn't
> based on an hourly rate, but on the project and my client's company size
> and ability to come up with enough to cover my time.  The part of the
> project that took all my time is in a backend admin tool that allows the
> client to update their pages whenever they need.  The data is all stored
> in a mysql db.  Anyways, I have noticed that for some clients, like my
> first, charging too much will lose them.  For other clients, like medium
> sized companies, charging too little will send them hunting for someone
> else.  Very bizarre environment to work in, but my suggestion is to
> judge your prices based on the client's perspective.  Interview the
> client and try to get an idea of what they're looking for.  Look at what
> the client thinks they're getting.  Use anything you can to find out
> what the client's price range is and then set your prices in the middle.
> And also, everything can be negotiated.
> 
> my 2 cents...
> 
> johnny p. 

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Wade D]

So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just starting?


_
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Steve Werby]

"Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But here I have to disagree with you. Yes, some guys who charge only $10/h
> might sometimes be better than $200/h, but you can´t say that there is
> *no* corralation between rates and quality. Sometimes there actually
> is.

$10 versus $200 is a little extreme, but I agree that there is sometimes a
correlation between rates and quality if we're talking about programmers or
firms that deal with larger, better educated (in terms of software
development) clients.  If we're talking about individual programmers that
deal with smaller clients I don't find this to be the case.  Because smaller
clients tend to understand the technology and the process less and often
can't recognize the difference between a guru and a hack.

> I usually don´t charge for hour either, rather per project, but your
> example of $5000 and $100,000. Well, what is the purpose of your
> doings? Many of us like what we do, but the second reason (if not the
> first) for doing it, is money, you can say whatever you want, but this is
> true for mosy of the peops.

Obviously I want to be profitable.  But my primary motivation is to be doing
challenging work, to enjoy what I'm doing and to build software that makes
my clients happy.  Sure, we could be like this other company and charge
$100,000 for a project that's worth $5,000 but we won't do that.  Why?
Because it will inevitably come back to haunt us.  In this business you have
little more than your knowledge and your reputation and a tarnished
reputation won't get you far.  YMMV.

> And lets talk about clients just a bit more. A decent firm, before it
> starts buying something, it looks on more than one direction, they make
> their job on getting to know the prices and services that are being
> offered to decide where to order something.

Again, I think we're talking about different kinds of clients.  A large
corporate client looking for someone to fulfill a large project will spend a
lot of time doing research, soliciting quotes and in general will be well
educated in terms of what's involved and what it should cost.  A small brick
and mortar company or shoestring budget startup headed by a non-technical
person might not have that luxury and generally doesn't have the time,
energy or expertise to make a qualified decision.  My experience is that a
lot of these type of clients only speak to 1 to 3 firms.  And these other
firms are often not qualified - they don't understand the business world or
don't even do programming.  In fact, last week I spoke to the head of a
small internet startup that was soliciting bids for a search engine for his
site.  His site consisted *entirely* of hundreds of identically formatted
static pages that were created by combining text and images in Photoshop.
He got bids from 2 other firms before me about building a search engine for
the site.  We were the only firm that informed him that no search engine can
search text from within an image (meaning the other firms had no clue) and
that if we built him a database driven site with an admin interface to
upload images, create records and modify text he could save 15 minutes per
page built for the site and modify the entire look of the site in under an
hour.  Based on his projection this would save him about 300 hours a year.
These are the type of clients we typically deal with 80% of the time.  We're
comfortable doing it, but we don't rip them off just because they're
uneducated.

> $100,000 instead of $5000? You shouldn´t. In some other fields you could
> say that they just didn`t have any other candidates to choose from, but
> when talking about programming and php, well, you just can`t say it, can
> you? Most of the projects can be done even over the internet, no problems.

My reality is different than your reality.  I don't know if I want to trade
places or not.  

> shouldn`t count on all the jobsites available in the internet, rather word
> of mouth, this is the best way.

Amen.  If you do good work for a fair price and make the experience
pleasurable for your clients the work will come.  It's like any business.
People want to work with people they like and if your customers like you
they'll mention you to others.

--
Steve Werby
COO
24-7 Computer Services, LLC
Tel: 804.817.2470
http://www.247computing.com/


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[johnny p.]

Ok, I just started my own company and finished work for my first client
(shameless plug here: http://www.alamosawinecellars.com).  The problem I
had wasn't in pricing my work by what it's worth and how much time I put
in it, but pricing it in a way that would work for my client.  I ended
up making roughly $10/hr., maybe less, for the effort, but I ended up
with an extra $1000 in the bank.  If I wanted to charge more, I would
have had to take a walk and look for another client.  My price wasn't
based on an hourly rate, but on the project and my client's company size
and ability to come up with enough to cover my time.  The part of the
project that took all my time is in a backend admin tool that allows the
client to update their pages whenever they need.  The data is all stored
in a mysql db.  Anyways, I have noticed that for some clients, like my
first, charging too much will lose them.  For other clients, like medium
sized companies, charging too little will send them hunting for someone
else.  Very bizarre environment to work in, but my suggestion is to
judge your prices based on the client's perspective.  Interview the
client and try to get an idea of what they're looking for.  Look at what
the client thinks they're getting.  Use anything you can to find out
what the client's price range is and then set your prices in the middle.
And also, everything can be negotiated.

my 2 cents...

johnny p.

> -Original Message-
> From: Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:23 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
>
>
> >As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the
> >emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me.  Not all
> >programmers are created equal.  A lot of clients don't recognize
> that.  Some
> >mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more
> productive than
> a
> >$100/hr. programmer.  Yet others think that a $200/hr.
> programmer must be
> >twice as good as a $100/hr. programmer.
>


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk]

>As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the
>emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me.  Not all
>programmers are created equal.  A lot of clients don't recognize
that.  Some
>mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more productive than
a
>$100/hr. programmer.  Yet others think that a $200/hr. programmer must be
>twice as good as a $100/hr. programmer.  

Yes, you`re right about that, you can´t take it that literally. That`s not
the way to decide who you should hire. Even one programmer could make
things for a quite different price for different clients. I know it, I`m
pretty much working this way right now. I`m doing some project based work
for one firm (continuing stuff) and then for separate firms I just set the
price that seems to be acceptable to both of us. 

>I find that there is *no*
>correlation between hourly rate and the quality, productivity and value
of a
>programmer.

But here I have to disagree with you. Yes, some guys who charge only $10/h
might sometimes be better than $200/h, but you can´t say that there is
*no* corralation between rates and quality. Sometimes there actually
is. First, when you start with something, let it be php or something else
and when you start then selling your services, you know you`re new, you
just give your hours away for smaller money, you`re productivity is a bit
lower, etc. In the other hand, an experienced guy already knows how much
work it actually takes, he knows he can do it well and because of that, he
charges more. Yes, it`s not always so, but still. 

>We've talked to a number of prospective clients who were
>charged $100,000+ for projects we could have done for $5,000.  I couldn't
>sleep at night if we gouged clients like that and in the long run I think
>gouging clients will come back to bite you.  We try to emphasize the
total
>cost to the client along with the benefits of our proposed solutions.  We
>try to state these benefits in terms of time savings, exposure,
value-added
>capabilities, revenue and process improvement.  When you can put what you
>can bring to the table in these terms the hourly rate becomes less
critical
>and it makes it easier to compete with inferior competitors that compete
on
>price alone.

I usually don´t charge for hour either, rather per project, but your
example of $5000 and $100,000. Well, what is the purpose of your
doings? Many of us like what we do, but the second reason (if not the
first) for doing it, is money, you can say whatever you want, but this is
true for mosy of the peops. I just read somewhere (maybe from this list
itself), that when setting the price, first think of your own needs, how
much work would it take and how much would you charge for it and then
think about the value of it to your customer (who may sometimes think
bigger is better), what would he be ready to pay for it and then ask the
higher amount. You say you couldn´t sleep at night, but the price you set,
it actually pretty much depends on the country, area, where  you live, so
maybe the ones who asked $200/h just had to ask it (probably not, but just
think of the idea for a moment). I could afford making something for
30$/h, maybe even cheaper, lets say you do it for $50 - you can`t say you
charge too much because I charge less and neiter vice versa.

And lets talk about clients just a bit more. A decent firm, before it
starts buying something, it looks on more than one direction, they make
their job on getting to know the prices and services that are being
offered to decide where to order something. Now, the ball is in their
side, it`s totally their choice who,which firm they choose to do the job,
so why should you worry, if your customer feedback was the best, your
marketing guys made great job, why should you worry about charging
$100,000 instead of $5000? You shouldn´t. In some other fields you could
say that they just didn`t have any other candidates to choose from, but
when talking about programming and php, well, you just can`t say it, can
you? Most of the projects can be done even over the internet, no problems. 


But yes, when talking about starting, then it might seem quite hard to
find work at first, I was in this situation 6 months ago myself, but right
now I could soon probably give work to a whole team. At first, you
shouldn`t count on all the jobsites available in the internet, rather word
of mouth, this is the best way. Maybe, for some contract work, go to some
company for which you think you could really do something and convince
them as well. And then don´t worry, it might take time, but if try hard,
there`s a green light in the end of the year.


Siim Einfeldt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[Robin Vickery]

> "SW" == "Steve Werby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 > "Benjamin Munoz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 >> Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a
 >> recruiter told  me
 >> that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for
 >> developers of PHP web apps (in Los Angeles).

 > Interesting.  We're located in [not very large, but high
 > tech/internet concentration] Charlottesville, Virginia and there's
 > a pretty significant demand for PHP-based apps and websites.

 >> A search today
 >> on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262,
 >> JSP yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields
 >> 16.

 > Odd.  My search on monster.com for "php" turned up 324 listings.  I
 > *wish* there were less - we have listings 135 and 136 and have not
 > found the right candidate yet.

OK, a quick search on jobserve.com (mainly UK based jobs) threw up
52 contract and 282 permanent job postings mentioning PHP within the
last five days.

I've not noticed any problem at all in getting PHP jobs in London.
Although I've not tried contracting yet.

ContractorUK (http://www.contractoruk.co.uk/data-web.html) has a
table of contractor rates which ranks PHP at number 15 in order
of earning power at 44.31 GBP/hour (approx $65). Perl is number 6
at 52.66 GBP/hour (approx $78), just below Java at 54.32 GBP/hour.

Talking to the Perl and PHP Contractors that I know, they tell me
these rates are at the lower/middle end of the range. And speaking
from personal experience, previous companies I've worked for have
regularly charged out my time at over double those rates (not that
I see anything near that money myself). London rates tend to be
higher than in civilized places, as with all things.

(Brief history: 
 I learnt various fun, but not particularly commercial languages at Uni. 
 Picked up Perl while working in a Sysadmin role, then PHP/FI when roped 
 into developing a website. I converted to PHP3 with some relief as soon 
 as it came out and now most of my work is in PHP4 and Perl.)


-robin

-- 
Robin Vickery.
BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Angus Mann]

At 11:54 1/02/2001 -0800, Terrence Chay wrote:
> We should be prudent when discussing how much we charge for programming.
>I'm no lawyer but I believe it's okay to discuss hypotheticals, histories,
>and such, but remember that discussing wage rates may run against anti-trust
>regulation as evidence of collusion (at least in the United States).

You'd better tell the unions that.


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Josh G]

Ok, you got me on a technicality :)

Of course, every rule has an exception. Even the rule that
says every rule has an exception ;-)

Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/

I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.


- Original Message -
From: "Michael Kimsal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Josh G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


>
>
> Josh G wrote:
>
> > 
> >
> > It comes down to one simple thing:
> > You cannot know how much a project is worth to a client. If they're
> > willing to pay you $5000, it's worth $5000, wether you think it's worth
> > $500 or $5.
>
> I hear you, but have to disagree a bit - I think you CAN sometimes know
> what something is objectively worth.  Not always, but sometimes.
> We wrote an ordering system for a client that, when implemented,
> would make 8 people redundant.  Even on the low end of ~$20k/person,
> plus admin overhead, that project would be saving them ~$200k/year, plus
> the other benefits of having their data faster and with fewer errors.
> That was a no brainer, imo.  They knew they'd save a MINIMUM of $x/year,
> perhaps more.  We knew what the project was worth to them.  If they
> didn't pay our price, yes, in the abstract it wasn't "worth" it to them,
> but that's on an emotional level at that point (worth) not a paper
> figure level.  :)
>
>
>
>
> > If I buy a pack of basketball cards for $2 that has
> > ten cards in it, then they're worth 20c each. If suddenly some
> > collecter says "ohmigod you have a jordan rookie card in there, i'll
> > give you $3000", it's now worth $3000, because that's what
> > he is willing to part with to own it.
> >
> > In short, any skill, service, or product, is "worth" the amount of money
> > you can exchange it for" this is how the stock market works
> > (sometimes), it's how just about everything works. If they're willing
> > to pay it, you should charge it. They can go somewhere else, noone
> > is holding a gun to their heads.
> >
> > Everything is a game. You want the most money possible for it, they
> > want it for the least amount of money, you compromise on something
> > you can both live with, or you don't do business, and next job, you
> > have to start over.
> >
> > Some people won't look at you if you charge less than $150/hr, some
> > people won't look at you if you chargre more than 40 it's just the
> > way it is.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/
>


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Josh G]

It comes down to one simple thing:
You cannot know how much a project is worth to a client. If they're
willing to pay you $5000, it's worth $5000, wether you think it's worth
$500 or $5. If I buy a pack of basketball cards for $2 that has
ten cards in it, then they're worth 20c each. If suddenly some
collecter says "ohmigod you have a jordan rookie card in there, i'll
give you $3000", it's now worth $3000, because that's what
he is willing to part with to own it.

In short, any skill, service, or product, is "worth" the amount of money
you can exchange it for" this is how the stock market works
(sometimes), it's how just about everything works. If they're willing
to pay it, you should charge it. They can go somewhere else, noone
is holding a gun to their heads.

Everything is a game. You want the most money possible for it, they
want it for the least amount of money, you compromise on something
you can both live with, or you don't do business, and next job, you
have to start over.

Some people won't look at you if you charge less than $150/hr, some
people won't look at you if you chargre more than 40 it's just the
way it is.



Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/

I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.


- Original Message -
From: "Steve Werby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Shane McBride" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


> "Shane McBride" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP?
>
> There's no magic answer.  And no offense, but if you categorize building
> business solutions delivered via the internet as "writing PHP" then your
> services probably shouldn't be priced at the higher end of the spectrum.
> There are so many factors - size of project, complexity, reusability of
> project components, turnaround time, your reputation, your speed,
geography,
> etc.  And there are many ways to price a project.  We use a combination of
> flat rate pricing, estimates with a cap, hourly rates, retainer
arrangements
> and some more creative terms depending on another long list of factors.
>
> As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the
> emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me.  Not all
> programmers are created equal.  A lot of clients don't recognize that.
Some
> mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more productive than
a
> $100/hr. programmer.  Yet others think that a $200/hr. programmer must be
> twice as good as a $100/hr. programmer.  I find that there is *no*
> correlation between hourly rate and the quality, productivity and value of
a
> programmer.  Sure, in other non_knowledge_based occupations, there may be
a
> correlation, but in our biz I don't see one.  Some say "you get what you
pay
> for", but b/c this industry is new there are a lot of unscrupulous
> developers out there talking with naive uneducated clients.  This is a
> dangerous mix.  We've talked to a number of prospective clients who were
> charged $100,000+ for projects we could have done for $5,000.  I couldn't
> sleep at night if we gouged clients like that and in the long run I think
> gouging clients will come back to bite you.  We try to emphasize the total
> cost to the client along with the benefits of our proposed solutions.  We
> try to state these benefits in terms of time savings, exposure,
value-added
> capabilities, revenue and process improvement.  When you can put what you
> can bring to the table in these terms the hourly rate becomes less
critical
> and it makes it easier to compete with inferior competitors that compete
on
> price alone.
>
> So, in general what should you charge based on your skills, experience and
> the types of things you are building?  At a mimimum you should charge
enough
> to cover the cost of your operation taking into account the risk of not
> staying fully utlized and adding on enough to make an acceptable amount of
> profit.  If after arriving at that number it seems that your target market
> can't support that rate, reassess your strategy.  As a rule of thumb, a
> consulting biz needs to charge 2.5 - 3 times the hourly rate payed to its
> employees.  If you're a one person operation, you might think you need to
> charge less, but I wouldn't look at it that way.  Unless you have clients
> breaking your door down and your clients aren't aware that there *are*
> others like you, you'll probably have to spend a significant amount of
> non-billa

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Steve Werby]

"Shane McBride" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP?

There's no magic answer.  And no offense, but if you categorize building
business solutions delivered via the internet as "writing PHP" then your
services probably shouldn't be priced at the higher end of the spectrum.
There are so many factors - size of project, complexity, reusability of
project components, turnaround time, your reputation, your speed, geography,
etc.  And there are many ways to price a project.  We use a combination of
flat rate pricing, estimates with a cap, hourly rates, retainer arrangements
and some more creative terms depending on another long list of factors.

As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the
emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me.  Not all
programmers are created equal.  A lot of clients don't recognize that.  Some
mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more productive than a
$100/hr. programmer.  Yet others think that a $200/hr. programmer must be
twice as good as a $100/hr. programmer.  I find that there is *no*
correlation between hourly rate and the quality, productivity and value of a
programmer.  Sure, in other non_knowledge_based occupations, there may be a
correlation, but in our biz I don't see one.  Some say "you get what you pay
for", but b/c this industry is new there are a lot of unscrupulous
developers out there talking with naive uneducated clients.  This is a
dangerous mix.  We've talked to a number of prospective clients who were
charged $100,000+ for projects we could have done for $5,000.  I couldn't
sleep at night if we gouged clients like that and in the long run I think
gouging clients will come back to bite you.  We try to emphasize the total
cost to the client along with the benefits of our proposed solutions.  We
try to state these benefits in terms of time savings, exposure, value-added
capabilities, revenue and process improvement.  When you can put what you
can bring to the table in these terms the hourly rate becomes less critical
and it makes it easier to compete with inferior competitors that compete on
price alone.

So, in general what should you charge based on your skills, experience and
the types of things you are building?  At a mimimum you should charge enough
to cover the cost of your operation taking into account the risk of not
staying fully utlized and adding on enough to make an acceptable amount of
profit.  If after arriving at that number it seems that your target market
can't support that rate, reassess your strategy.  As a rule of thumb, a
consulting biz needs to charge 2.5 - 3 times the hourly rate payed to its
employees.  If you're a one person operation, you might think you need to
charge less, but I wouldn't look at it that way.  Unless you have clients
breaking your door down and your clients aren't aware that there *are*
others like you, you'll probably have to spend a significant amount of
non-billable time dealing with running the business, doing marketing, sales
and other business functions.  And if you're alternative is working as an
employee of another company and earning a steady paycheck (unless you just
don't want to work for anyone else) you should plan on at least making
enough to earn more than this alternative.

If I was trying to gauge my value I would probably start low, build up word
of mouth, client referrals and long term relationships and then increase my
rates gradually over time if the market allows you to do so.  In my area a
green PHP programmer working part time might be able do contract work for
$15 an hour while a seasoned guru might be able to command $150 an hour.
Over time your programming skills, productivity and business knowledge
should continuously increase.  As a result your margins should increase,
even if your so called "hourly rate" remains flat.  Unless of course you
hire other people.  That may make your operation much more complex and
difficult to manage than you may think.  Plus, any development firm that
hires a PHP programmer is reducing the pool of PHP programmers available to
my company and I just can't have that.  

--
Steve Werby
COO
24-7 Computer Services, LLC
Tel: 804.817.2470
http://www.247computing.com/


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[Steve Werby]

"Benjamin Munoz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told
me
> that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
> web apps (in Los Angeles).

Interesting.  We're located in [not very large, but high tech/internet
concentration] Charlottesville, Virginia and there's a pretty significant
demand for PHP-based apps and websites.  Then again, our target market is
small/medium businesses and small internet startups and after assessing a
client's needs, working with them to define a solution and developing a
proposal that nearly always uses LAMP the clients rarely care what we use as
long as we deliver.  Sure, larger, stodgier corportate clients with IT
departments are more resistent to utilizing PHP and open source technology
for their enterprise solutions, but they aren't the only customers out
there.

> therefore command a higher wage.  Demand vs supply, right?.  A search
today
> on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262, JSP
> yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields 16.

Odd.  My search on monster.com for "php" turned up 324 listings.  I *wish*
there were less - we have listings 135 and 136 and have not found the right
candidate yet.

--
Steve Werby
COO
24-7 Computer Services, LLC
Tel: 804.817.2470
http://www.247computing.com/


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[Maxim Maletsky]

>> -What can we as a developer community do to change this?
>Prove that Open Source is working, and better than many commercial
>solutions, too.

This is something I like to do within my company: they used to buy software
online saying that it is still cheaper then develop it ourselves. Hmm.. I
always agreed, BUT in a different way -- sending them a link to Source Forge
- "Look guys, they have done a similar soft already and even in a similar
language, but, 4 FREE "  Gezz,, when will they ever understand that
Phorum runs better then some $200 cgi-perl application easier to find for a
manager on AltaVista.

This is how we have to teach them.

Cheers,
Maxim Maletsky

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[Ben Peter]

Hi Ben,

> I know that that Java/EJB/JSP and COM/ASP is in MUCH more demand, and
> therefore command a higher wage.  Demand vs supply, right?.  A search today
> on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262, JSP
> yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields 16.

Take into account that you need 5 Java programmers where one PHP
programmer would do the job (this is not blind rage against Java; we
have recently completed a Java [ATG Dynamo] project and it has taken 10
times the resources the same solution in PHP would have needed).

> -Has the demand changed much in your city since middle of last year?
Can't tell.

> -Also, for developers who are proficient in several web dev environments, is
> it mostly true that you use PHP for your own personal projects, but some
> other language for big corporate clients.
This is true for our major client; they have decided to go to Java,
leaving us no choice but to follow. They might yet make up their mind,
as ATG Dynamo and Oracle bring in licensing costs of ~ $1m.

> -What is the perception of PHP for mid/large organizations with more to
> risk?
A lot of IT consultants will recommend something expensive so that they
can claim they wanted a 'bussiness standard' if there are problems. Get
more trouble when you have recommended Open Source [*sigh*]. I still
wouldn't, though.

> -What can we as a developer community do to change this?
Prove that Open Source is working, and better than many commercial
solutions, too.

Regards,
Ben

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Miles Thompson]

Simply because both involve computers.

Miles

At 11:43 AM 2/1/01 +, Robin Vickery wrote:
> > "JG" == "Josh G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>  > I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
>  > good programmer, and a good graphic designer.
>
>I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a
>php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're
>quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's
>not something that's generally expected from other professions
>(when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that
>required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers?
>
>
> -robin (who can't draw for toffee)
>
>
>--
>Robin Vickery.
>BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE
>
>--
>PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[Michael Kimsal]

Benjamin Munoz wrote:

> Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told me
> that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
> web apps (in Los Angeles). Although I've been very productive developing in
> PHP, he advised me to learn something else, b/c the demand just isn't there.
> I prefer PHP for my web dev, but I'm still curious how accurate he was.
>
> I know that that Java/EJB/JSP and COM/ASP is in MUCH more demand, and
> therefore command a higher wage.  Demand vs supply, right?.  A search today
> on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262, JSP
> yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields 16.
>

There was some discussion on this list a few months back re: an employer looking

for PHP coders.  The job description on their site listed "PHP" as "an open
source
ASP".  *MANY* "recruiters" don't know what the hell they're looking for,
especially for smaller companies.  They know they want result X and have heard
'java' is the answer, so they want 'java'.  If they take the time to learn
the lingo, and still want java, fine.  But if they don't want to take the time
to
learn the options (benefits/drawbacks) then I wouldn't want to do business with
them
anyway.

I also got turned down for a job some time ago because I didn't program CGI.
Perl?  yes.  PHP?  yes.  CGI - no.  I was talking to a recruiter and he'd looked
at
what I knew and said, sorry, no job for "perl" people - we need people who can
code in CGI.  I walked out at that point.

In 1997, I saw a job posting in our local paper (detroit news) wanting people
with 5 years Java experience.

When talking to potential clients, don't push PHP - push solutions.  When they
learn that an equivalent ASP solution will be an extra $7000 in licensing
over the open source equivalent, they'll often go open source.  But only
after they trust that you can deliver the end result in the first place,
language
choice aside.

Obviously this doesn't work well with companies that already have a huge
investment in one technology - people who dropped 5 figures on CF
aren't going to throw it away tomorrow.


>
> -Has the demand changed much in your city since middle of last year?

The demand for competent individuals who can deliver quality on time
for a reasonable cost has gone up.  Demand for people with particular
language skills has, AFAICT, gone down.

>
> -Also, for developers who are proficient in several web dev environments, is
> it mostly true that you use PHP for your own personal projects, but some
> other language for big corporate clients.
>

We migrated two relatively large clients from ASP to PHP recently, and use it
for all 'smaller' projects.

> -What is the perception of PHP for mid/large organizations with more to
> risk?

"if it doesn't crash my servers, use it".  PHP definitely has a leg up over ASP.

> -What can we as a developer community do to change this?
>

Discussions like this for a start.  :)


>
> Thanks, I'm very interested in others' opinions on this.
>
> -Ben
>


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Jade Ohlhauser]

Who cares, they could never bust us. So lets decide on this list that we are
going to set (or "fix" if you will) the price of PHP work at $100/per hour.
Oh just a second, someone's at the door...

. Jade Ohlhauser
[website architect]... http://bandwidthplace.com


- Original Message -
From: "James Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:10 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


>
> > Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
> > rates in this manner?
> >
> > It's always been my understanding that
> > The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
> > of pricing between competitors (all or some)
> > a federal offense.



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[James Moore]

> Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
> rates in this manner?
> 
> It's always been my understanding that
> The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
> of pricing between competitors (all or some)
> a federal offense. 
> 
> Am I taking this too literally?

Lucky most of us arnt in the US then isnt it.

James

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[Navid]

Mr. Delap,

Perhaps the following site may help you in your quest for new employees that
know not only PHP, but almost anything computer related, from beginners to
advanced. If you haven't ran across it already, I think you might like it.
Roam around it a bit:  www.computerjobs.com.

Also, I am planning on starting up my own Web Development company, something
small for now. I want to focus more on XML, Push Technology, and Wireless
Communications. Do you have any tips to get me started? Thanks.   :)

-- Navid Yar



-Original Message-
From: DELAP, SCOTT F (SBCSI) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:20 PM
To: Benjamin Munoz; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")


Just some thoughts on this topic.   I've ran a web development business for
6 years.  I've seen demand for PHP grow exponentially in recent months.
However, it still isn't anywhere near where it could be.  I think the new
Zend Products will help corporate acceptance and job growth.  Right now when
I look at sites like monster, hotjobs, guru.com, etc. there are few php
listings.  It is hard for clients looking explicitly for good php talent to
find it easily.  We used to get a number of good leads every month off of
PHPBuilder.com's job board.   However, it was taken down in recent months at
parent company internet.com's request.  I think we need a central site where
people looking for contract work and full time employment positions can come
and post jobs related to php.  If anyone has a good domain idea or one
already bought, I'd be glad to work with them on such a site.  This type of
site would need to be pushed by the community if they want to benefit from
it.  Just putting a job board up and letting it sit won't do the trick.

Scott Delap
SBC Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
314-235-6216


-Original Message-
From: Benjamin Munoz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Dean Hall'; PHP General
Subject: RE: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
pr ogramming???")



Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told me
that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
web apps (in Los Angeles). Although I've been very productive developing in
PHP, he advised me to learn something else, b/c the demand just isn't there.
I prefer PHP for my web dev, but I'm still curious how accurate he was.

I know that that Java/EJB/JSP and COM/ASP is in MUCH more demand, and
therefore command a higher wage.  Demand vs supply, right?.  A search today
on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262, JSP
yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields 16.

-Has the demand changed much in your city since middle of last year?
-Also, for developers who are proficient in several web dev environments, is
it mostly true that you use PHP for your own personal projects, but some
other language for big corporate clients.
-What is the perception of PHP for mid/large organizations with more to
risk?
-What can we as a developer community do to change this?

Thanks, I'm very interested in others' opinions on this.

-Ben

-Original Message-
From: Dean Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:43 AM
To: PHP General
Subject: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")


Somewhat related to the recent discussion on pricing for contractors, I
thought I'd ask if anyone knows of any good resources to help budding
contrators/consultants find their way around.

I'm a skilled web developer, but I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to
law and conventions in the US for contractors and consultants doing web
development (or anything else).

If there are any good books or websites that talk about this type of
self-employment, or if anyone has personal experience they wish to offer,
please let me know.

Thanks.
Dean.

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[DELAP, SCOTT F (SBCSI)]

Just some thoughts on this topic.   I've ran a web development business for
6 years.  I've seen demand for PHP grow exponentially in recent months.
However, it still isn't anywhere near where it could be.  I think the new
Zend Products will help corporate acceptance and job growth.  Right now when
I look at sites like monster, hotjobs, guru.com, etc. there are few php
listings.  It is hard for clients looking explicitly for good php talent to
find it easily.  We used to get a number of good leads every month off of
PHPBuilder.com's job board.   However, it was taken down in recent months at
parent company internet.com's request.  I think we need a central site where
people looking for contract work and full time employment positions can come
and post jobs related to php.  If anyone has a good domain idea or one
already bought, I'd be glad to work with them on such a site.  This type of
site would need to be pushed by the community if they want to benefit from
it.  Just putting a job board up and letting it sit won't do the trick.

Scott Delap
SBC Services, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
314-235-6216


-Original Message-
From: Benjamin Munoz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Dean Hall'; PHP General
Subject: RE: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
pr ogramming???")



Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told me
that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
web apps (in Los Angeles). Although I've been very productive developing in
PHP, he advised me to learn something else, b/c the demand just isn't there.
I prefer PHP for my web dev, but I'm still curious how accurate he was.

I know that that Java/EJB/JSP and COM/ASP is in MUCH more demand, and
therefore command a higher wage.  Demand vs supply, right?.  A search today
on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262, JSP
yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields 16.

-Has the demand changed much in your city since middle of last year?  
-Also, for developers who are proficient in several web dev environments, is
it mostly true that you use PHP for your own personal projects, but some
other language for big corporate clients.  
-What is the perception of PHP for mid/large organizations with more to
risk?
-What can we as a developer community do to change this?

Thanks, I'm very interested in others' opinions on this.

-Ben

-Original Message-
From: Dean Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:43 AM
To: PHP General
Subject: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")


Somewhat related to the recent discussion on pricing for contractors, I
thought I'd ask if anyone knows of any good resources to help budding
contrators/consultants find their way around.

I'm a skilled web developer, but I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to
law and conventions in the US for contractors and consultants doing web
development (or anything else).

If there are any good books or websites that talk about this type of
self-employment, or if anyone has personal experience they wish to offer,
please let me know.

Thanks.
Dean.

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Demand is rising, insanely.  I left an NT Systems programming position for
a PHP position.  Not every company develops software, but almost every
company can benefit from a website/presence.

Most "large organizations" like turnkey solutions from large "notable"
companies.
This is one of ASPs strongest points.  However, as PHP grows, people will
notice.
Open Source ANYTHING still has a ways to go, but it's getting there.

-Szii


- Original Message -
From: Benjamin Munoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'Dean Hall' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; PHP General <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")


>
> Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told
me
> that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
> web apps (in Los Angeles). Although I've been very productive developing
in
> PHP, he advised me to learn something else, b/c the demand just isn't
there.
> I prefer PHP for my web dev, but I'm still curious how accurate he was.
>
> I know that that Java/EJB/JSP and COM/ASP is in MUCH more demand, and
> therefore command a higher wage.  Demand vs supply, right?.  A search
today
> on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262, JSP
> yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields 16.
>
> -Has the demand changed much in your city since middle of last year?
> -Also, for developers who are proficient in several web dev environments,
is
> it mostly true that you use PHP for your own personal projects, but some
> other language for big corporate clients.
> -What is the perception of PHP for mid/large organizations with more to
> risk?
> -What can we as a developer community do to change this?
>
> Thanks, I'm very interested in others' opinions on this.
>
> -Ben
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: Dean Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:43 AM
> To: PHP General
> Subject: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
> programming???")
>
>
> Somewhat related to the recent discussion on pricing for contractors, I
> thought I'd ask if anyone knows of any good resources to help budding
> contrators/consultants find their way around.
>
> I'm a skilled web developer, but I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to
> law and conventions in the US for contractors and consultants doing web
> development (or anything else).
>
> If there are any good books or websites that talk about this type of
> self-employment, or if anyone has personal experience they wish to offer,
> please let me know.
>
> Thanks.
> Dean.
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

If you're in the US, look at your local Chamber of Commerce, or other County
agencies.  Most
places have a "small business" division.  As an Independent Contractor
you're effectively a
sole-proprieter business and follow the same laws, tax hits, etc.

-Szii

- Original Message -
From: Dean Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: PHP General <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:43 AM
Subject: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")


Somewhat related to the recent discussion on pricing for contractors, I
thought I'd ask if anyone knows of any good resources to help budding
contrators/consultants find their way around.

I'm a skilled web developer, but I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to
law and conventions in the US for contractors and consultants doing web
development (or anything else).

If there are any good books or websites that talk about this type of
self-employment, or if anyone has personal experience they wish to offer,
please let me know.

Thanks.
Dean.



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

If you can deal with the obscene cost of living, here in Silicon Valley,
California
you can make ~80/hr doing being just a webmaster.  ~100/hr for a GOOD coder,
and ~120+/hr for a really good "real language" coder.  That's obviously
without
benefits, options, guaranteed income, vacation, sick days, etc.

-Szii

- Original Message -
From: Jonathan Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Philip Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Josh G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: PHP User Group <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


> Yeah, I'm consulting though...but yes there are some other options...where
> does it say $80/hour in the US?!
>
> -Jonathan
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:05 PM
> > To: Josh G
> > Cc: PHP User Group
> > Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> >
> >
> >
> > One thing to keep in mind is we're mixing up contract jobs and "real"
jobs
> > with contract jobs usually being much higher rates.  Not sure on any
> > specifics though but real jobs are pretty secure, eight hours a day ...
so
> > it's a tradeoff.  Most (if not all) quotes thus far are in regard to
> > contract jobs.
> >
> > Philip
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Josh G wrote:
> >
> > > I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
> > > good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
> > > any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying
> > > scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at
> > > my resume ;-)
> > >
> > > This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
> > > an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
> > > make here, which is more like US$20/hr
> > >
> > > Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/
> > >
> > > I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
> > > hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Jonathan Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> > >
> > >
> > > > I find this an interesting topic...
> > > >
> > > > One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP
> > programmers to
> > > > add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out
there
> > > > coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or
> > some of the
> > > > design considerations. We've looked at various places from
> > techies.com to
> > > > guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So
> > in terms of
> > > > skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm
currently
> > > > underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project
> > > management,
> > > > engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all
the
> > > > network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're
a
> > > > starup what did you expect?! =)
> > > >
> > > > Comments?
> > > >
> > > > Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes
> > in PHP. But
> > > > from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who
> > can really
> > > code
> > > > clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been
> > > virtually
> > > > non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > -Jonathan Sharp
> > > >
> > > > Director of Technology - Imprev Inc.
> > > > Renwick Development Group - Flyerware
> > > > http://www.flyerware.com/
> > > > Phone: (425)688-9200
> > > > Cell: (425)766-1398
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM
> > > > To: Shane McBride
> > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> > > >
> > > >
&

RE: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[Benjamin Munoz]

Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told me
that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
web apps (in Los Angeles). Although I've been very productive developing in
PHP, he advised me to learn something else, b/c the demand just isn't there.
I prefer PHP for my web dev, but I'm still curious how accurate he was.

I know that that Java/EJB/JSP and COM/ASP is in MUCH more demand, and
therefore command a higher wage.  Demand vs supply, right?.  A search today
on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262, JSP
yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields 16.

-Has the demand changed much in your city since middle of last year?  
-Also, for developers who are proficient in several web dev environments, is
it mostly true that you use PHP for your own personal projects, but some
other language for big corporate clients.  
-What is the perception of PHP for mid/large organizations with more to
risk?
-What can we as a developer community do to change this?

Thanks, I'm very interested in others' opinions on this.

-Ben

-Original Message-
From: Dean Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:43 AM
To: PHP General
Subject: [PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")


Somewhat related to the recent discussion on pricing for contractors, I
thought I'd ask if anyone knows of any good resources to help budding
contrators/consultants find their way around.

I'm a skilled web developer, but I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to
law and conventions in the US for contractors and consultants doing web
development (or anything else).

If there are any good books or websites that talk about this type of
self-employment, or if anyone has personal experience they wish to offer,
please let me know.

Thanks.
Dean.

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[PHP] contracting & consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???")

[Dean Hall]

Somewhat related to the recent discussion on pricing for contractors, I thought I'd 
ask if anyone knows of any good resources to help budding contrators/consultants find 
their way around.

I'm a skilled web developer, but I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to law and 
conventions in the US for contractors and consultants doing web development (or 
anything else).

If there are any good books or websites that talk about this type of self-employment, 
or if anyone has personal experience they wish to offer, please let me know.

Thanks.
Dean.

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Chana Black]

I agree 100%. It looks simple, but to write really good code you need to 
know your stuff.

CB

At 01:56 PM 2/1/01 -0600, Boget, Chris wrote:
> > Besides, sometimes I think that PHP is so easy to learn
> > that we should be considered unskilled labor ;-)
>
>The skill is in the shaping.  Any joe off the street can make an
>ugly sculpture.  It takes talent and skill to make art...
>:p
>
>Chris



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Boget, Chris]

> Besides, sometimes I think that PHP is so easy to learn 
> that we should be considered unskilled labor ;-)

The skill is in the shaping.  Any joe off the street can make an
ugly sculpture.  It takes talent and skill to make art...
:p

Chris

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Terrence Chay]

We should be prudent when discussing how much we charge for programming.
I'm no lawyer but I believe it's okay to discuss hypotheticals, histories,
and such, but remember that discussing wage rates may run against anti-trust
regulation as evidence of collusion (at least in the United States).

Having said that, I seriously doubt we'd have the DOJ banging down on
listers. And I find this topic honest and interesting, even though it
doesn't concern me.

Besides, sometimes I think that PHP is so easy to learn that we should
be considered unskilled labor ;-)

Take care,

terry

-- 
terry chay, Director of Engineering, 
QIXO /kick.so/ - Integrating Many Travel Web Sites Into One
W: 1.408.394-8102 F:1.408.516.9090M: 1.408.314.0717
E-Mail:  ICQ: 16069322
PGP Fingerprint: 6DCF 1634 547C 935D 4912  2A44 A4A2 79AB DFFF F110 


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Jerry Lake]

Yep, ain't it grand...
I got hired on as a designer
and somebody got the bright idea
that I must be a programmer as well
funny I don't remember that on my resume.

Jerry Lake- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Designer
Europa Communications - http://www.europa.com
Pacifier Online - http://www.pacifier.com


-Original Message-
From: Robin Vickery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:43 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


>>>>> "JG" == "Josh G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 > I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
 > good programmer, and a good graphic designer. 

I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a
php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're
quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's
not something that's generally expected from other professions
(when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that
required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers?


-robin (who can't draw for toffee)


-- 
Robin Vickery.
BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Jon Haworth]

Of course, this might also be something to do with the fact that if one
place is charging 80p/litre and one is charging 90p/litre, where are you
going to spend your cash, given there's no difference between the petrol?


-Original Message-
From: thor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 01 February 2001 17:30
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


What you may be referring to is when competitors in a small market (or in a
market with limited competition) compare their prices behind the scenes in
order to keep the prices high.  Which is what the oil companies are often
accused of doing (ever wonder why gas prices are usually within a few cents
or even identical between stations even though they're supposed
competitors?).



-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[thor]

Yes, you are taking this too literally.
Our first amendment right superecedes any law.

What you may be referring to is when competitors in a small market (or in a market 
with limited competition) compare their prices behind the scenes in order to keep the 
prices high.  Which is what the oil companies are often accused of doing (ever wonder 
why gas prices are usually within a few cents or even identical between stations even 
though they're supposed competitors?).


-- Original Message --
From: "Brian V Bonini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:49:00 -0500

>Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
>rates in this manner?
>
>It's always been my understanding that
>The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
>of pricing between competitors (all or some)
>a federal offense. 
>
>Am I taking this too literally?
>
>-- 
>PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Brian V Bonini]

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

I only asked because the HTML lists @
the HTML Writers Guild strictly prohibit
this sort of discussion, their reason always
having been that they are concerned about
'price fixing' laws.
It always seemed a little overkill to me.

Thanks,
-Brian
*
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Stump [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:52 AM
> To: Brian V Bonini
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
> You are taking this WAY to seriously. What you are talking about
> is the Sherman
> Act that developed our current antitrust laws. Specifically you
> are talking
> about "price fixing", which is illegal in the US. If EVERY PHP
> coder in the US
> got together at a trade show and said "We will all demand $150.00
> an hour no
> matter what" then THAT would be illegal. Me mentioning to you how
> much I charge
> is totally legal.
>
> This mainly applies to big businesses and large manufacturers -
> OPEC for example
> would be TOTALLY illegal in the US.
>
> --Joe
>
> On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 08:49:00AM -0500, Brian V Bonini wrote:
> > Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
> > rates in this manner?
> >
> > It's always been my understanding that
> > The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
> > of pricing between competitors (all or some)
> > a federal offense.
> >
> > Am I taking this too literally?
> >
> > --
> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
>
> --
> -
> Joe Stump, PHP Hacker, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   -o)
> http://www.miester.org http://www.care2.com
>   /\\
> "It's not enough to succeed. Everyone else must fail" -- Larry
> Ellison _\_V
> --
> -
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Krznaric Michael]

I have over 6 years programming experience, almost 3 include PHP.  I
also have sound database knowledge. Where is the best place to find PHP
consulting work?

Mike

-Original Message-
From: Jonathan Sharp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:26 PM
To: Philip Olson; Josh G
Cc: PHP User Group
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


Yeah, I'm consulting though...but yes there are some other options...where
does it say $80/hour in the US?!

-Jonathan

> -Original Message-
> From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:05 PM
> To: Josh G
> Cc: PHP User Group
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
>
> One thing to keep in mind is we're mixing up contract jobs and "real" jobs
> with contract jobs usually being much higher rates.  Not sure on any
> specifics though but real jobs are pretty secure, eight hours a day ... so
> it's a tradeoff.  Most (if not all) quotes thus far are in regard to
> contract jobs.
>
> Philip
>
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Josh G wrote:
>
> > I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
> > good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
> > any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying
> > scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at
> > my resume ;-)
> >
> > This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
> > an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
> > make here, which is more like US$20/hr
> >
> > Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/
> >
> > I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
> > hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Jonathan Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> >
> >
> > > I find this an interesting topic...
> > >
> > > One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP
> programmers to
> > > add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there
> > > coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or
> some of the
> > > design considerations. We've looked at various places from
> techies.com to
> > > guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So
> in terms of
> > > skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently
> > > underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project
> > management,
> > > engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the
> > > network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a
> > > starup what did you expect?! =)
> > >
> > > Comments?
> > >
> > > Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes
> in PHP. But
> > > from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who
> can really
> > code
> > > clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been
> > virtually
> > > non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -Jonathan Sharp
> > >
> > > Director of Technology - Imprev Inc.
> > > Renwick Development Group - Flyerware
> > > http://www.flyerware.com/
> > > Phone: (425)688-9200
> > > Cell: (425)766-1398
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM
> > > To: Shane McBride
> > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey Shane,
> > >
> > > This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD):
> > >
> > >   $60/hr
> > >   $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings)
> > >
> > > General discounts for features such as : fun,true
> non-profit,intelligent
> > > employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale
> depending on
> > > their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time).
> Also, barter
> > > is usually an option.  Usually hovers between 30-50 and one
> day this will
> > > go up :-)  This is the most difficult part of the job, time e

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Michael Kimsal]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
> Just an observation from some people I know in the USA - they charge
> whatever they can get away with.
> How about honestly charging what you think you are worth ?
> Knowing how to use php means nothing - but if you know it well you will
> be worth a lot.
>

Slight philosophical disagreement here - knowing PHP extremely well still doesn't
make it worth anything, unless you can apply that knowledge to a client's
problems and create solutions/applications that are valuable to them.

Don't charge what you think you're worth.  Wait, no.
Charge what you think you're worth OR what the project is worth to the
client, whatever is higher.  If what you think you're worth is more than they
want to (or can) pay, move on.

You may think it's worth $3000.  The client may think it's worth (and willing to pay)
$30,000.  As a matter of fact, you MAY not get the work if your price is too
low (perceived value).

There is a book out there called "million dollar consulting" (author=weiss I think) 
which
might be a good read for list members, at least the chapter on pricing.


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Joe Stump]

You are taking this WAY to seriously. What you are talking about is the Sherman
Act that developed our current antitrust laws. Specifically you are talking
about "price fixing", which is illegal in the US. If EVERY PHP coder in the US
got together at a trade show and said "We will all demand $150.00 an hour no
matter what" then THAT would be illegal. Me mentioning to you how much I charge
is totally legal.

This mainly applies to big businesses and large manufacturers - OPEC for example
would be TOTALLY illegal in the US.

--Joe

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 08:49:00AM -0500, Brian V Bonini wrote:
> Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
> rates in this manner?
> 
> It's always been my understanding that
> The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
> of pricing between competitors (all or some)
> a federal offense. 
> 
> Am I taking this too literally?
> 
> -- 
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

---
Joe Stump, PHP Hacker, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -o)
http://www.miester.org http://www.care2.com /\\
"It's not enough to succeed. Everyone else must fail" -- Larry Ellison _\_V
---


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Brian V Bonini]

Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
rates in this manner?

It's always been my understanding that
The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
of pricing between competitors (all or some)
a federal offense. 

Am I taking this too literally?

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Jonathan Sharp]

Yeah, I'm consulting though...but yes there are some other options...where
does it say $80/hour in the US?!

-Jonathan

> -Original Message-
> From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:05 PM
> To: Josh G
> Cc: PHP User Group
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
>
> One thing to keep in mind is we're mixing up contract jobs and "real" jobs
> with contract jobs usually being much higher rates.  Not sure on any
> specifics though but real jobs are pretty secure, eight hours a day ... so
> it's a tradeoff.  Most (if not all) quotes thus far are in regard to
> contract jobs.
>
> Philip
>
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Josh G wrote:
>
> > I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
> > good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
> > any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying
> > scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at
> > my resume ;-)
> >
> > This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
> > an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
> > make here, which is more like US$20/hr
> >
> > Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/
> >
> > I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
> > hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Jonathan Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> >
> >
> > > I find this an interesting topic...
> > >
> > > One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP
> programmers to
> > > add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there
> > > coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or
> some of the
> > > design considerations. We've looked at various places from
> techies.com to
> > > guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So
> in terms of
> > > skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently
> > > underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project
> > management,
> > > engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the
> > > network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a
> > > starup what did you expect?! =)
> > >
> > > Comments?
> > >
> > > Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes
> in PHP. But
> > > from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who
> can really
> > code
> > > clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been
> > virtually
> > > non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -Jonathan Sharp
> > >
> > > Director of Technology - Imprev Inc.
> > > Renwick Development Group - Flyerware
> > > http://www.flyerware.com/
> > > Phone: (425)688-9200
> > > Cell: (425)766-1398
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM
> > > To: Shane McBride
> > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey Shane,
> > >
> > > This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD):
> > >
> > >   $60/hr
> > >   $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings)
> > >
> > > General discounts for features such as : fun,true
> non-profit,intelligent
> > > employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale
> depending on
> > > their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time).
> Also, barter
> > > is usually an option.  Usually hovers between 30-50 and one
> day this will
> > > go up :-)  This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates
> > > and pricing.  Bah.  "Just give me money and I'll do stuff."
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Philip Olson
> > > http://www.cornado.com/
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote:
> > > > I know this is not really a PHP question,

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Josh G]

nah, it's not that they want me to, it's that they don't believe i can :)
although my present employer is rather happy that i can draw and
code, he saves a salary that way ;-)

Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/

I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.

  
- Original Message - 
From: "Robin Vickery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


> >>>>> "JG" == "Josh G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>  > I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
>  > good programmer, and a good graphic designer. 
> 
> I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a
> php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're
> quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's
> not something that's generally expected from other professions
> (when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that
> required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers?
> 
> 
> -robin (who can't draw for toffee)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Robin Vickery.
> BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE
> 
> -- 
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Robin Vickery]

> "JG" == "Josh G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

 > I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
 > good programmer, and a good graphic designer. 

I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a
php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're
quite unrelated activities using completely different skills. It's
not something that's generally expected from other professions
(when was the last time you saw an advert for an accountant that
required they be proficient with Photoshop?) so why programmers?


-robin (who can't draw for toffee)


-- 
Robin Vickery.
BlueCarrots, 14th Floor, 20 Eastbourne Terrace, London, W2 6LE

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Josh G]

I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying
scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at
my resume ;-)

This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
make here, which is more like US$20/hr

Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/

I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.


- Original Message -
From: "Jonathan Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


> I find this an interesting topic...
>
> One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to
> add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there
> coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the
> design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to
> guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of
> skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently
> underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project
management,
> engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the
> network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a
> starup what did you expect?! =)
>
> Comments?
>
> Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But
> from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really
code
> clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been
virtually
> non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!)
>
> Thanks,
> -Jonathan Sharp
>
> Director of Technology - Imprev Inc.
> Renwick Development Group - Flyerware
> http://www.flyerware.com/
> Phone: (425)688-9200
> Cell: (425)766-1398
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM
> To: Shane McBride
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
>
> Hey Shane,
>
> This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD):
>
>   $60/hr
>   $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings)
>
> General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent
> employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on
> their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time).  Also, barter
> is usually an option.  Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will
> go up :-)  This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates
> and pricing.  Bah.  "Just give me money and I'll do stuff."
>
> Regards,
>
> Philip Olson
> http://www.cornado.com/
>
>
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote:
> > I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good
> > thread. :)
> >
> > I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just
> > been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I
> > normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price
> > it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners
> > businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.
> >
> > Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn
> > it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge
> > them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of
> > course didn't charge the client for my learning curve.
> >
> > I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is
> > creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create
> > the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic
> > since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the
> > end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and
> > PHP.
> >
> > I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors
> > to this list and their opinions.
> >
> > TIA,
> > Shane
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Philip Olson]

Hey Shane,

This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD):

  $60/hr
  $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings)

General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent
employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on
their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time).  Also, barter 
is usually an option.  Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will
go up :-)  This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates
and pricing.  Bah.  "Just give me money and I'll do stuff." 

Regards,

Philip Olson
http://www.cornado.com/


> On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote:
> I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good
> thread. :) 
> 
> I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just
> been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I
> normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price
> it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners
> businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.
> 
> Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn
> it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge
> them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of
> course didn't charge the client for my learning curve.   
> 
> I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is
> creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create
> the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic
> since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the
> end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and
> PHP. 
> 
> I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors
> to this list and their opinions.  
> 
> TIA,
> Shane


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Jonathan Sharp]

I find this an interesting topic...

One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to
add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there
coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the
design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to
guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of
skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently
underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project management,
engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the
network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a
starup what did you expect?! =)

Comments?

Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But
from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really code
clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been virtually
non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!)

Thanks,
-Jonathan Sharp

Director of Technology - Imprev Inc.
Renwick Development Group - Flyerware
http://www.flyerware.com/
Phone: (425)688-9200
Cell: (425)766-1398

-Original Message-
From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM
To: Shane McBride
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???



Hey Shane,

This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD):

  $60/hr
  $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings)

General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent
employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on
their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time).  Also, barter
is usually an option.  Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will
go up :-)  This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates
and pricing.  Bah.  "Just give me money and I'll do stuff."

Regards,

Philip Olson
http://www.cornado.com/


> On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote:
> I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good
> thread. :)
>
> I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just
> been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I
> normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price
> it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners
> businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.
>
> Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn
> it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge
> them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of
> course didn't charge the client for my learning curve.
>
> I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is
> creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create
> the database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic
> since the data content depends largely on the previous choices of the
> end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and
> PHP.
>
> I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors
> to this list and their opinions.
>
> TIA,
> Shane


--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[mwaples]

Shane McBride wrote:
> 
> I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :)
> 
> I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a 
>project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am 
>VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have 
>been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.
> 
> Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am 
>stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price 
>because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client 
>for my learning curve.
> 
> I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a 
>web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, 
>etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends 
>largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 
>5-6 pages of html and PHP.
> 
> I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list 
>and their opinions.
> 
> TIA,
> Shane

Just an observation from some people I know in the USA - they charge
whatever they can get away with.
How about honestly charging what you think you are worth ? 
Knowing how to use php means nothing - but if you know it well you will
be worth a lot.

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Jonathan Sharp]

I hear ya' on those multi tallented skills you got...same here, but I on my
resume I've only put my programming skills...I just let them find out about
all that *other* stuff later...it makes for a good reason for a raise =)

-Jonathan

> -Original Message-
> From: Josh G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:52 PM
> To: PHP User Group
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
> I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
> good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
> any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying
> scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at
> my resume ;-)
>
> This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
> an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
> make here, which is more like US$20/hr
>
> Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/
>
> I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
> hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jonathan Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
>
>
> > I find this an interesting topic...
> >
> > One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP
> programmers to
> > add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there
> > coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the
> > design considerations. We've looked at various places from
> techies.com to
> > guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of
> > skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently
> > underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project
> management,
> > engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the
> > network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a
> > starup what did you expect?! =)
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes
> in PHP. But
> > from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really
> code
> > clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been
> virtually
> > non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Jonathan Sharp
> >
> > Director of Technology - Imprev Inc.
> > Renwick Development Group - Flyerware
> > http://www.flyerware.com/
> > Phone: (425)688-9200
> > Cell: (425)766-1398
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM
> > To: Shane McBride
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey Shane,
> >
> > This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD):
> >
> >   $60/hr
> >   $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings)
> >
> > General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent
> > employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on
> > their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time).  Also, barter
> > is usually an option.  Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day
> this will
> > go up :-)  This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates
> > and pricing.  Bah.  "Just give me money and I'll do stuff."
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Philip Olson
> > http://www.cornado.com/
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote:
> > > I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make
> for a good
> > > thread. :)
> > >
> > > I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just
> > > been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I
> > > normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about
> how to price
> > > it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small
> single owners
> > > businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.
> > >
> > > Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn
> > > it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge
> > > them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with
> PHP. S

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[scott]

I have an engineering background with 10yrs consulting experience and have seen many 
different type of fee structures (fixed project rate, hourly, percentage, profit-share 
etc.)

The typical formula for determining rate is 2-3 times salary. The multiplier covers 
G&A + a little profit margin.

For example, a salaried employee getting $25/hr is equivalent to a consultant charging 
$50-75 or more an hour.  

There is a BIG difference between consultant, contract and employee::

- A true consultant is self sufficient, independant of the client and bears their own 
infrastructure costs (phone, office space/rent, software, computers & equipment, 
invoicing accounting, training etc.);

- Employee gets paid regardless;
- Employees are entitled to holidays, benifits and possibly overtime;
- Employees get training on paid company time;
- Employee assumes little or no liability for their actions (very important 
difference);
- Employee doesn't have to worry about all the "other" stuff.

- Contract is somewhere between consultant and employee (big grey area here).


Regards,

- Scott








There is no fixed rate or specific formula, it all depends on the marketplace and 
proficiency.






> > This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
> > an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
> > make here, which is more like US$20/hr
> 
> Remember though, if you're on a salary you'll get less an hour for
> ANYTHING (not just PHP) but it'll at least be consistent...
> 
> Jason
> 
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 


--
--
   Scott A. Gerhardt  P.Geo.
   Gerhardt Information Technologies
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Joe Stump]

My normal rate is $80/hr (accross the board). I have friends that get up in the
low $100's an hour. Depending on the customer, project and tax form (W2 or 1099)
I slide the rate up or down.

--Joe

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote:
> I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :)
> 
> I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a 
>project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am 
>VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have 
>been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.
> 
> Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am 
>stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price 
>because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client 
>for my learning curve.
> 
> I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a 
>web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, 
>etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends 
>largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 
>5-6 pages of html and PHP.
> 
> I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list 
>and their opinions. 
> 
> TIA,
> Shane

-- 

---
Joe Stump, PHP Hacker, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -o)
http://www.miester.org http://www.care2.com /\\
"It's not enough to succeed. Everyone else must fail" -- Larry Ellison _\_V
---


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Chad Day]

I charge a rate of $80 an hour or so, and haven't had any problems.

Chad

-Original Message-
From: Chris Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 3:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


$3000 - $10,000 cdn month depending on the work. Some projects will take a
month, but can be done while working on three other projects, other require
dedicated time, this is more costly.

The more projects you do the greater your own list of libraries you develop
become, this makees the work easier and faster, you may want to charge the
same amount, or more because the work is done quicker, or less because its
easier for you now.


--



Chris Lee
Mediawaveonline.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






""Shane McBride"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
001a01c08bc3$f61aa9c0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:001a01c08bc3$f61aa9c0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good
thread. :)

I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been
given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do
work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my
other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and
the PHP has been pretty basic.

Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I
am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL
price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't
charge the client for my learning curve.

I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is
creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the
database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the
data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or
two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP.

I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to
this list and their opinions.

TIA,
Shane




-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Jason Murray]

> This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
> an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
> make here, which is more like US$20/hr

Remember though, if you're on a salary you'll get less an hour for
ANYTHING (not just PHP) but it'll at least be consistent...

Jason

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[[ rswfire ]]

I charge $50/hr. for any programming I do - if it's a small project.  For 
larger projects, I work out a budget with my client.

I'm in the process of releasing a new service to the web, though.  Swift 
eNetwork.  This project will allow my clients to register their website on 
the network and build their website without needing to do any programming 
(or without needing ME to do any programming, everything is dynamic) -- they 
choose their layouts, colors, etc. and put in their data and they're all 
set.  If they want to add to their website's functionality, they add some 
pre-designed, customizable plugins - and suddenly they have a fully-dynamic, 
professional website in minutes.

I read your post Josh...  I think you are a very talented programmer - and 
graphic artist.  I am lacking in the area of graphics and once I have 
established my network online I will be looking for someone to develop some 
more graphical appearing templates for my clients to use.  The concept is 
relatively simple -- all of the elements used on the page are in tables so 
as long as the graphical templates can work with tables, they should 
function perfectly.

Since the network isn't online, I can't show it to anyone.  But I added a 
page to a site where you can see some screenshots if you are interested to 
see my work.  Let me know what you think!!  And if anyone is interested in 
helping me with some of the templates, please let me know...maybe we can 
work something out together...

The release date is Valentine's Day...

http://www.geocities.com/rswfire/enetwork/

Rob
Swift International
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Philip Olson]

One thing to keep in mind is we're mixing up contract jobs and "real" jobs
with contract jobs usually being much higher rates.  Not sure on any
specifics though but real jobs are pretty secure, eight hours a day ... so
it's a tradeoff.  Most (if not all) quotes thus far are in regard to
contract jobs.

Philip

On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Josh G wrote:

> I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
> good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
> any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying
> scumbag by a few HR companies over the years when they look at
> my resume ;-)
> 
> This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
> an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
> make here, which is more like US$20/hr
> 
> Gfunk -  http://www.gfunk007.com/
> 
> I sense much beer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
> hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jonathan Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> 
> 
> > I find this an interesting topic...
> >
> > One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP programmers to
> > add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there
> > coding in PHP that don't have a background in programming or some of the
> > design considerations. We've looked at various places from techies.com to
> > guru.com and haven't found that many PHP gurus out there. So in terms of
> > skill level, what do you all see the going rate? I know I'm currently
> > underpaid at $25/hour and I do ALL the PHP programming, project
> management,
> > engineering, database theory etc...oh...and did I mention I do all the
> > network support too? (I'm taking my CCNA in June...) so yeah...we're a
> > starup what did you expect?! =)
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > Disclaimer: I don't mean to offend anyone out there who codes in PHP. But
> > from the experience that I've had trying to find someone who can really
> code
> > clean, effecient stuff that plugs into the whole picture has been
> virtually
> > non-existent...(if you do, please call! We have a few openings!)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Jonathan Sharp
> >
> > Director of Technology - Imprev Inc.
> > Renwick Development Group - Flyerware
> > http://www.flyerware.com/
> > Phone: (425)688-9200
> > Cell: (425)766-1398
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM
> > To: Shane McBride
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey Shane,
> >
> > This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD):
> >
> >   $60/hr
> >   $30/hr if end result becomes open sourced (no strings)
> >
> > General discounts for features such as : fun,true non-profit,intelligent
> > employer,learning curve and it all lives on a sliding scale depending on
> > their ability to pay and my desire for work/money (time).  Also, barter
> > is usually an option.  Usually hovers between 30-50 and one day this will
> > go up :-)  This is the most difficult part of the job, time estimates
> > and pricing.  Bah.  "Just give me money and I'll do stuff."
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Philip Olson
> > http://www.cornado.com/
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 03:25:27PM -0500, Shane McBride wrote:
> > > I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good
> > > thread. :)
> > >
> > > I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just
> > > been given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I
> > > normally do work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price
> > > it. Most of my other PHP projects have been done for small single owners
> > > businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.
> > >
> > > Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn
> > > it, I am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge
> > > them a REAL price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of
> > > course didn't charge the client for my learning curve.
> > >
> > > I know the 

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Michael Kimsal]

I get flamed for this sometimes, but we don't normally charge an hourly rate for a
project.  After-project maintenance, yes, but for an initial project we normally quote 
a fixed price.
The price will cover a minimal hourly rate to cover our costs, but we don't normally 
cap it on the top
by saying "that's 200 hours at $125/hour so it's $25,000" (or whatever it would be).

Rather, we try to gain as much info as we can about the project and it's relative 
value to
the business.  If someone is having us build a system that will net them a direct cost 
reduction
of $2 million dollars per year, we will take that into consideration.  Some people 
think that's
gouging, but we don't see it like that.  On the flip side of that, we've taken on 
projects
at lower than normal rates because the job was cool, but the value to the business just
wouldn't be all that much.  No sense in charging someone $10,000 for an inventory 
system
when they only do $20k/year in sales, for example.




Shane McBride wrote:

> I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :)
>
> I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a 
>project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am 
>VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have 
>been done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.
>
> Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am 
>stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price 
>because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client 
>for my learning curve.
>
> I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a 
>web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, 
>etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends 
>largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 
>5-6 pages of html and PHP.
>
> I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list 
>and their opinions.
>
> TIA,
> Shane


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Chris Lee]

$3000 - $10,000 cdn month depending on the work. Some projects will take a
month, but can be done while working on three other projects, other require
dedicated time, this is more costly.

The more projects you do the greater your own list of libraries you develop
become, this makees the work easier and faster, you may want to charge the
same amount, or more because the work is done quicker, or less because its
easier for you now.


--



Chris Lee
Mediawaveonline.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






""Shane McBride"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
001a01c08bc3$f61aa9c0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:001a01c08bc3$f61aa9c0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good
thread. :)

I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been
given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do
work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my
other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and
the PHP has been pretty basic.

Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I
am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL
price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't
charge the client for my learning curve.

I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is
creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the
database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the
data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or
two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP.

I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to
this list and their opinions.

TIA,
Shane




-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Robert Covell]

This is a very good question and deal with it everytime I bid a project.

Rule of thumb:
Ask for what you are worth, if you don't you will wish you did.

I have successfully bid on project with hourly rates ranging from $85 -
$125.  The $$$ range changes based on project needs(db work(+$),
e-commerce(+$), etc), and other projects going on (a.k.a time availability:
not a lot of time then the price goes up).  Also I am not sure how much
demographics has do with it, but I can see the numbers being higher on the
coasts then in Missouri which is where we are located.

Sincerely,

Robert T. Covell
President / Owner
Rolet Internet Services, LLC
Web: www.rolet.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: 816.210.7145
Fax: 816.753.1952

-Original Message-
From: Shane McBride [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 2:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???


I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good
thread. :)

I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been
given a project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do
work for. So I am VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my
other PHP projects have been done for small single owners businesses, and
the PHP has been pretty basic.

Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I
am stuck. I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL
price because I didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't
charge the client for my learning curve.

I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is
creating a web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the
database tables, etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the
data content depends largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or
two tables with 20-30 fields. 5-6 pages of html and PHP.

I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to
this list and their opinions.

TIA,
Shane


-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???

[Shane McBride]

I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :)

I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a 
project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am 
VERY confused.concerned about how to price it. Most of my other PHP projects have been 
done for small single owners businesses, and the PHP has been pretty basic.

Now that I can actually do what I am being asked without have to learn it, I am stuck. 
I did a shopping cart for someone, but I didn't charge them a REAL price because I 
didn't know how to do it with PHP. So, I of course didn't charge the client for my 
learning curve.

I know the price is very dependant upon the task. What I am doing is creating a 
web-based front-end for a MySQL database. I'll need to create the database tables, 
etc. The front-end is going to be rather dynamic since the data content depends 
largely on the previous choices of the end-user. One or two tables with 20-30 fields. 
5-6 pages of html and PHP.

I'm just scouting this out, and am VERY confident with the contributors to this list 
and their opinions. 

TIA,
Shane