Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[PHP List]

On 8/20/2013 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling wrote:
> Hi guys:
>
> A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is 
> more popular than PHP.
>
> Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do 
> any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)

While I don't have any references to back it up - my guess would be that
Java may be seen as more versatile in general programming terms.  A
staggering number of enterprise level web applications are built with
Java, add to that the possibility of writing Android apps with the same
knowledge.

Of course, there are many ways to make Android apps without Java - I've
written a few myself with simple HTML and Flash Builder.

I would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect speaking
strictly in terms of web development.  PHP has already won that crown
many times over.  That said, when I was in University, it was difficult
to find a programming class that taught anything but Java - and that was
10yrs ago now.  I chalked it up to the education bubble not being able
to see what the rest of the world is actually doing.

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Dan Munro]

Zmap works by being stateless, so while nmap records which requests go out,
zmap "fires and forgets", and encodes the request in such a way that the
response can provide whatever details it needs to continue the scan. No
magic here.


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:

> Tedd Sperling wrote:
>
>> I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.
>>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Programming_languages_used_in_**
> most_popular_websitesmay
>  be a better starting point, but there are no citations to the facts,
> they are a little dated, and some sites are a little biased in their
> choices? Move to the top 40 sites and PHP fares a little better -
> http://rogchap.com/2011/09/06/**top-40-website-programming-**languages/but
>  but this data is a little dataed now.   Personally I've always used the
> W3techs figures when I'm doing talks as it is the only consistent source
> I've found. The netcraft figures would be nice but they only run this
> intermittently, and last January's figure of 244 million sites at 39% of
> machines seems a little at odds with the W3techs ones? http://w3techs.com/
> **technologies/history_overview/**programming_languagecontinues
>  to show PHP rising at the expense of ASP and Java with Perl, Ruby
> and Python having trouble to stay above 1% combined over the last year.
>
>
> --
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> -
> Contact - 
> http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contact
>
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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> http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**uk
>
>
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>


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Lester Caine]

Tedd Sperling wrote:

I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_languages_used_in_most_popular_websites 
may be a better starting point, but there are no citations to the facts, they 
are a little dated, and some sites are a little biased in their choices? Move to 
the top 40 sites and PHP fares a little better - 
http://rogchap.com/2011/09/06/top-40-website-programming-languages/ but but this 
data is a little dataed now.   Personally I've always used the W3techs figures 
when I'm doing talks as it is the only consistent source I've found. The 
netcraft figures would be nice but they only run this intermittently, and last 
January's figure of 244 million sites at 39% of machines seems a little at odds 
with the W3techs ones? 
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language continues 
to show PHP rising at the expense of ASP and Java with Perl, Ruby and Python 
having trouble to stay above 1% combined over the last year.


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Stuart Dallas]

On 20 Aug 2013, at 22:00, Ashley Sheridan  wrote:

> On Tue, 2013-08-20 at 21:44 +0100, Stuart Dallas wrote:
>> On 20 Aug 2013, at 21:30, Dan Munro > > wrote:
>> 
>> >> in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".
>> > 
>> > 
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/
>> 
>> 
>> That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering "how big is 
>> the internet," assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how 
>> many publicly responsive edge servers exist.
>> 
> I'd argue that a large proportion of really secure servers out there won't 
> respond to a lot of what Zmap pings out. Nmap works by throwing out requests 
> on a bunch of different ports, not just ping, which is slow, so I'd be 
> surprised if Zmap could really rival that while giving the same results. 
> Bearing in mind there are over 4,000 million (I won't say billion, because 
> that's a million million, despite what the Americans say!) IPv4 address out 
> there, 40 minutes is a ridiculous amount of time to even scan half of that, 
> especially given the fact that IPv6 is being majorly pushed because IPv4 is 
> apparently running out of free address space! Then not forgetting that lots 
> of websites exist on the same IP address/range, I would say the article is 
> lacking on so many details as to be untrue.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's untrue, but it's certainly written with 
exaggerated implications.

-Stuart

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Tue, 2013-08-20 at 21:44 +0100, Stuart Dallas wrote:

> On 20 Aug 2013, at 21:30, Dan Munro  wrote:
> 
> >> in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".
> > 
> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/
> 
> That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering "how big is 
> the internet," assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how 
> many publicly responsive edge servers exist.
> 
> -Stuart
> 
> -- 
> Stuart Dallas
> 3ft9 Ltd
> http://3ft9.com/


I'd argue that a large proportion of really secure servers out there
won't respond to a lot of what Zmap pings out. Nmap works by throwing
out requests on a bunch of different ports, not just ping, which is
slow, so I'd be surprised if Zmap could really rival that while giving
the same results. Bearing in mind there are over 4,000 million (I won't
say billion, because that's a million million, despite what the
Americans say!) IPv4 address out there, 40 minutes is a ridiculous
amount of time to even scan half of that, especially given the fact that
IPv6 is being majorly pushed because IPv4 is apparently running out of
free address space! Then not forgetting that lots of websites exist on
the same IP address/range, I would say the article is lacking on so many
details as to be untrue.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Stuart Dallas]

On 20 Aug 2013, at 21:30, Dan Munro  wrote:

>> in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/

That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering "how big is 
the internet," assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how 
many publicly responsive edge servers exist.

-Stuart

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Stuart Dallas]

On 20 Aug 2013, at 21:08, Sebastian Krebs  wrote:

> 2013/8/20 Steven Staples 
> 
>>> My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support
>>> which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can
>>> be used server-side.
>>> 
>>> I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach
>>> Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am
>> up
>>> to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm
>>> just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.
>> 
>> Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how
>> you
>> set up your server, no?
>> 
> 
> No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the
> "link" between the language and the network.

The language and the '"link" between the language and the network' are two 
completely separate things. The "link," as you put it, is the web server. A web 
server doesn't need to do anything more than set up environment variables and 
run an executable, and even setting up the environment is technically optional. 
BASH can build web pages. I wouldn't recommend using BASH, but there's nothing 
technically preventing it.

Node.js is not the only way to run Javascript outside a browser, and other ways 
of doing so existed long before Node.js arrived. Most limitations people put on 
technology are artificial constructions rather than real constraints.


tedd: I wouldn't trust any stats you might find since, as has been pointed out, 
it's incredibly difficult to accurately measure.

I'd be careful with the word "popular" because it really depends on what you're 
measuring. If you're talking public websites then I'd agree that, anecdotally 
at least, PHP is more common than any other server-side language. If you're 
talking about public site visitors or page views it's definitely the most 
popular, but that's massively skewed by Facebook if you accept that their way 
of using PHP can still be called PHP. Enterprise usage of PHP is far lower, 
mainly due to Microsoft's dominance, but I get the feeling this is changing, 
albeit incredibly slowly.

If he means Java is the most popular as in "developers would prefer to use it" 
then I'd definitely disagree, but I wouldn't necessarily say that PHP is at the 
top of that list either.

Ultimately I'd want to know what he's trying to prove by saying that. If he's 
purely engaging in a "mine's bigger than yours" discussion I'd walk away, leave 
him to his petty games and actually accomplish something with the time instead.

-Stuart

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Dan Munro]

> in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Sebastian Krebs wrote:

> 2013/8/20 Steven Staples 
>
> > > My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to
> support
> > > which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java
> can
> > > be used server-side.
> > >
> > > I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also
> teach
> > > Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I
> am
> > up
> > > to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm
> > > just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.
> >
> > Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how
> > you
> > set up your server, no?
> >
>
> No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the
> "link" between the language and the network.
>
>
> >
> > I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is
> html/php/javascript...
> > and next to that, would be asp, and then java.   Do I have proof of this?
> > No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be
> honest,
> > in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".  It
> is
> > virtually an immeasurable object.  There are so many websites out there,
> > that you can't search them all...
> >
>
> Of course you cannot search them _all_, but again the link:
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
> There are good hints, how "the internet looks like". For example a hoster
> can simply look at the products he sell. Services like w3techs.com use the
> reports from the server themself (in most cases the headers), or the
> file-ending (doesn't work anymore that good, since most sites hide them ;))
> and extrapolate this.
> Of course they are not exact, but I think they show the direction quite
> accurate.
>
>
> >
> > PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard
> for
> > all hosting companies.
> >
> > Now, there is this link...
> > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
> >
> > It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING,
> does
> > not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so
> > the
> > numbers do not really speak out in this application.
> >
>
> Also it is the Tiobe-Index. Although it is widely-referenced, the way it
> calculates their rankings is ... interesting. In fact it only tells you how
> "loud" a community around a specific language is. So for example maybe Java
> is #1, because it is so complex, that it leads to many questions in forums
> and on stackoverflow. Or PHP is "only" #5, because most communication is on
> IRC, or mailinglists. (disclaimer: Of course I faked this examples.
> Actually I have no idea how the communities around Java and PHP "as a
> whole" interacts primary, but I don't think, that they are all equal).
> I just think, that the Tiobe-Index has a completely different view on "what
> is a popular language", than I have.
>
>
> >
> > Does it really matter?   PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even
> go
> > so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting
> providers.
> >
>
> Nope, it doesn't matter :)
>
>
> >
> > But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years
> > professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP.
> > Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
>
>
> --
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>



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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Sebastian Krebs]

2013/8/20 Steven Staples 

> > My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support
> > which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can
> > be used server-side.
> >
> > I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach
> > Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am
> up
> > to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm
> > just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.
>
> Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how
> you
> set up your server, no?
>

No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the
"link" between the language and the network.


>
> I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is html/php/javascript...
> and next to that, would be asp, and then java.   Do I have proof of this?
> No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be honest,
> in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".  It is
> virtually an immeasurable object.  There are so many websites out there,
> that you can't search them all...
>

Of course you cannot search them _all_, but again the link:
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
There are good hints, how "the internet looks like". For example a hoster
can simply look at the products he sell. Services like w3techs.com use the
reports from the server themself (in most cases the headers), or the
file-ending (doesn't work anymore that good, since most sites hide them ;))
and extrapolate this.
Of course they are not exact, but I think they show the direction quite
accurate.


>
> PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard for
> all hosting companies.
>
> Now, there is this link...
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>
> It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING, does
> not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so
> the
> numbers do not really speak out in this application.
>

Also it is the Tiobe-Index. Although it is widely-referenced, the way it
calculates their rankings is ... interesting. In fact it only tells you how
"loud" a community around a specific language is. So for example maybe Java
is #1, because it is so complex, that it leads to many questions in forums
and on stackoverflow. Or PHP is "only" #5, because most communication is on
IRC, or mailinglists. (disclaimer: Of course I faked this examples.
Actually I have no idea how the communities around Java and PHP "as a
whole" interacts primary, but I don't think, that they are all equal).
I just think, that the Tiobe-Index has a completely different view on "what
is a popular language", than I have.


>
> Does it really matter?   PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even go
> so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting providers.
>

Nope, it doesn't matter :)


>
> But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years
> professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP.
> Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications.
>
>
>
>
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> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>


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RE: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Steven Staples]

> My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support
> which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can
> be used server-side.
> 
> I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach
> Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am
up
> to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm
> just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.

Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you
set up your server, no?

I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is html/php/javascript...
and next to that, would be asp, and then java.   Do I have proof of this?
No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be honest,
in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".  It is
virtually an immeasurable object.  There are so many websites out there,
that you can't search them all... 

PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard for
all hosting companies.

Now, there is this link...
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING, does
not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so the
numbers do not really speak out in this application.

Does it really matter?   PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even go
so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting providers.

But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years
professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP.
Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications.




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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Sebastian Krebs]

2013/8/20 Andy McKenzie 

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Dan Munro  wrote:
>
> > > 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
> > > reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
> > > imagine.
> > >
> > > 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
> > > interpreted programming language.
> >
> > 1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of
> place
> > your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if
> > something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it
> > is.
> >
> > 2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python
> > and not python itself.
> >
> >
> I can't argue on point two, since that's where all of my worst failure have
> come from.  But as to indenting, I have had the problem of opening a file
> on a new OS, only to find that the default editor there has wiped out my
> formatting.


Who is with me? Thats a good point to restart the
tabs-vs-spaces-discussion, isn't?

*duckandrun*

:D


>  With PHP, that's not a big deal:  as long as I put my braces
> in the right places, everything will continue to work.  With Python -- or
> any whitespace delimited language -- it's fatal, and I have to hope I can
> exit without saving anything.
>
> Andy
>



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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Tedd Sperling]

On Aug 20, 2013, at 2:19 PM, Sebastian Krebs  wrote:
> Thats interesting. I am from Berlin and here, when you say you know PHP and a 
> little bit of one, or two frameworks, they will jump onto you 

I'll stay away from Berlin. :-)

tedd

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Andy McKenzie]

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Dan Munro  wrote:

> > 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
> > reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
> > imagine.
> >
> > 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
> > interpreted programming language.
>
> 1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of place
> your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if
> something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it
> is.
>
> 2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python
> and not python itself.
>
>
I can't argue on point two, since that's where all of my worst failure have
come from.  But as to indenting, I have had the problem of opening a file
on a new OS, only to find that the default editor there has wiped out my
formatting.  With PHP, that's not a big deal:  as long as I put my braces
in the right places, everything will continue to work.  With Python -- or
any whitespace delimited language -- it's fatal, and I have to hope I can
exit without saving anything.

Andy

Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Tedd Sperling]

On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete Ford  wrote:
> tedd,
> 
> Java is a meticulously-constructed language with very strict typing and a 
> large commercial organisation which purports to support and develop it.
> PHP is a scruffy heap of loosely typed cruft which is easy to knock together 
> and build big things from, but has a semi-commercial and community support 
> structure.

Thanks for the info. :-)

FYI -- I am teaching both PHP and JAVA at college level and have taught both 
for several years as well as other Web Languages.

My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support which 
server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can be used 
server-side.

I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach Mobile 
Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am up to my butt 
in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm just trying to get 
documentation to back up my what I think I know.

Thanks,

tedd

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Dan Munro]

> 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
> reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
> imagine.
>
> 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
> interpreted programming language.

1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of place
your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if
something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it
is.

2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python
and not python itself.


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Tedd Sperling wrote:

> On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Paul M Foster 
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 05:09:37PM +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
> >
> >> shiplu wrote:
> >>> During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
> >>> https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
> >>> statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
> >>> Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
> >>> "Java".
> >>
> >> 'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably
> >> says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand
> >> when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much
> >> better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key
> >> elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :(
> >
> > Python may be "most readable", but it's a huge fail for two reasons:
> >
> > 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
> > reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
> > imagine.
> >
> > 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
> > interpreted programming language.
>
> And no ternary operator.
>
> tedd
>
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> tedd.sperl...@gmail.com
>
>
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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Tedd Sperling]

On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Paul M Foster  wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 05:09:37PM +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
> 
>> shiplu wrote:
>>> During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
>>> https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
>>> statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
>>> Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
>>> "Java".
>> 
>> 'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably
>> says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand
>> when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much
>> better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key
>> elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :(
> 
> Python may be "most readable", but it's a huge fail for two reasons:
> 
> 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
> reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
> imagine.
> 
> 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
> interpreted programming language. 

And no ternary operator.

tedd

___
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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Sebastian Krebs]

2013/8/20 Andy McKenzie 

> I'll chime in on this one.
>
> I've been job hunting recently, and I can say that while I've seen a lot of
> people asking for Java experience, I'm not sure I've seen a single posting
> asking specifically for PHP.  There've been a few looking for Drupal, or
> Wordpress, but no "You must be able to write PHP code to work here".
>

Thats interesting. I am from Berlin and here, when you say you know PHP and
a little bit of one, or two frameworks, they will jump onto you :D


>
> I can also say that the more I work with Java-based programs, the more I
> want to see Java written into history books as a terrible idea that sadly
> persisted until nearly 2014.  As an example:  I need to provide IT support
> to people using a tool written in Java.  It turns out that if you install
> Java 7, the tool doesn't work at all.  If you install Java 6 with the
> newest updates, it works, but occasionally crashes the entire computer.
> No, you have to have Java 6 update 22 in order for this software to be
> reliable.
>
> There are other tools I've used that failed completely on minor version
> switches, and that just plain SHOULDN'T HAPPEN.  Yes, there are going to be
> minor changes when a language upgrades, that's why there are upgrades.  But
> they're usually minor, in a "This didn't work the way it was supposed to,
> so we fixed it" kind of way.  If you were taking advantage of that bug, you
> get knocked down, but the vast majority of software will keep running.
> Java doesn't seem to work that way, at least from an IT worker's
> perspective.
>
> Andy McKenzie
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling  wrote:
>
> > Hi guys:
> >
> > A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development
> > is more popular than PHP.
> >
> > Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references
> > do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
> >
> > Here are my two references:
> >
> > http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
> >
> >
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
> >
> > But I do not know how accurate they are.
> >
> > What say you?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> > tedd
> >
> > ___
> > tedd sperling
> > t...@sperling.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
>



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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Sebastian Krebs]

2013/8/20 Lester Caine 

> Sebastian Krebs wrote:
>
>> 1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows
>>> >the difference between Java and JavaScript.
>>> >
>>>
>> OKOK, sorry -_-
>> But @topic: For example see
>> http://w3techs.com/**technologies/overview/**programming_language/all
>> Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language.
>>
>>  >2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over "which is best")
>>> is
>>> >the main reason why things prosper.
>>>
>>
> I think he is simply wrong in his interpretation of the facts. The number
> of websites powered by PHP vastly exceeds Java and every other language
> http://w3techs.com/**technologies/overview/**programming_language/all
> Says it all!
>
> But you would never use PHP for a distributed application, and then
> http://www.langpop.com/ comes into play when the fight is between Java
> and C/C++ and personally I'm happier with C/C++ than Java even on Android.
> But even though you would not use PHP for distributed applications, it
> still gets a good 4th in that chart as well.


Exactly, but the initial explicitly states, that this is about web
development :D

Don't know, what I should think about langpop.com. A popularity listing,
that doesn't take github (or any other repo hoster, than google code) into
account? :? Its also quite outdated...


>
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - 
> http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contact
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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Andy McKenzie]

I'll chime in on this one.

I've been job hunting recently, and I can say that while I've seen a lot of
people asking for Java experience, I'm not sure I've seen a single posting
asking specifically for PHP.  There've been a few looking for Drupal, or
Wordpress, but no "You must be able to write PHP code to work here".

I can also say that the more I work with Java-based programs, the more I
want to see Java written into history books as a terrible idea that sadly
persisted until nearly 2014.  As an example:  I need to provide IT support
to people using a tool written in Java.  It turns out that if you install
Java 7, the tool doesn't work at all.  If you install Java 6 with the
newest updates, it works, but occasionally crashes the entire computer.
No, you have to have Java 6 update 22 in order for this software to be
reliable.

There are other tools I've used that failed completely on minor version
switches, and that just plain SHOULDN'T HAPPEN.  Yes, there are going to be
minor changes when a language upgrades, that's why there are upgrades.  But
they're usually minor, in a "This didn't work the way it was supposed to,
so we fixed it" kind of way.  If you were taking advantage of that bug, you
get knocked down, but the vast majority of software will keep running.
Java doesn't seem to work that way, at least from an IT worker's
perspective.

Andy McKenzie


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling  wrote:

> Hi guys:
>
> A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development
> is more popular than PHP.
>
> Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references
> do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
>
> Here are my two references:
>
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
>
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
>
> But I do not know how accurate they are.
>
> What say you?
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> tedd
>
> ___
> tedd sperling
> t...@sperling.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Larry Garfield]

On 8/20/13 9:00 AM, Tedd Sperling wrote:

Hi guys:

A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is 
more popular than PHP.

Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any 
of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)

Here are my two references:

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all

http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y

But I do not know how accurate they are.

What say you?

Cheers,


tedd


As others have said, he's simply wrong. :-)  "Good"ness of either 
language aside, the data (W3Techs is what I usually cite) is clear: For 
server-side web dev, PHP is the 800 lb gorilla.


For all programming combined?  Java may be bigger than PHP, sure.  For 
embedded?  No question, Java > PHP as PHP has almost no presence.  For 
"enterprise shops"?  There probably are segments of the market that are 
very Java-centric, even on the web, no question.


It's all how you define your scope.  I'm sure he could come up with some 
definition of "market" that would show Java having a bigger marketshare 
than PHP, within that market.  The question is whether that is a valid 
definition of "market" in context.


Lies, damned lies, and statistics. :-)

As countering data-points: Wordpress alone is 18% of the web.  Drupal is 
the #1 CMS used to power US government websites.  Universities and 
Museums are very big on Drupal.  (That's my day job. )  PHP's 
marketshare is huge, even in "enterprise".


--Larry Garfield

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Pete Ford]

On 20/08/13 15:00, Tedd Sperling wrote:

Hi guys:

A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is 
more popular than PHP.

Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any 
of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)

Here are my two references:

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all

http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y

But I do not know how accurate they are.

What say you?

Cheers,


tedd

___
tedd sperling
t...@sperling.com


tedd,

Java is a meticulously-constructed language with very strict typing and 
a large commercial organisation which purports to support and develop it.
PHP is a scruffy heap of loosely typed cruft which is easy to knock 
together and build big things from, but has a semi-commercial and 
community support structure.
Guess which one the big commercial organistations (banks, industry etc.) 
prefer to trust?
Guess which is then popular for college courses since it provides the 
students with a basis in something that is commercially desirable?
From my personal point of view, I started with BASIC, then FORTRAN (in 
a scientific environment), then C/C++, then Java (which I saw as the 
language C++ should have been), and then moved on to PHP in a search to 
find a way of building web apps in the sort of timescales that 
small-medium enterprises are prepared to accept.

Popularity is in the eye of the beholder...

Cheers
Pete

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Paul M Foster]

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 05:09:37PM +0100, Lester Caine wrote:

> shiplu wrote:
> >During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
> >https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
> >statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
> >Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
> >"Java".
> 
> 'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably
> says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand
> when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much
> better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key
> elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :(

Python may be "most readable", but it's a huge fail for two reasons:

1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
imagine.

2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
interpreted programming language. (Don't even start in on C. It's a
compiled language.)

Java is an incredibly heavy language for web work. Much like Ruby but
more so.

I'll say it again-- one of the reasons for the popularity of PHP is its
similarity to C, at least a passing skill in which is common to most
programmers.

Paul

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http://quillandmouse.com

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Lester Caine]

shiplu wrote:

During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
"Java".


'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably says it 
all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand when coming in cold to 
someone elses code ... Java is not much better ... but I still have to persist 
with both since some key elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :(


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[shiplu]

What a co-incidence! I was searching PHP vs Python in google and
reading articles. Now a similar mail on my inbox. When any language
war goes on, everyone gets biased by the language he/she loves. It
applies here too. I think your college teacher loves Java.

During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
"Java".

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Tedd Sperling  wrote:
> Hi guys:
>
> A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is 
> more popular than PHP.
>
> Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do 
> any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
>
> Here are my two references:
>
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
>
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
>
> But I do not know how accurate they are.
>
> What say you?
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> tedd
>
> ___
> tedd sperling
> t...@sperling.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>



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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Daniel Brown]

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling  wrote:
> Hi guys:
>
> A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is 
> more popular than PHP.
>
> Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do 
> any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
>
> Here are my two references:
>
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
>
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
>
> But I do not know how accurate they are.
>
> What say you?

While I couldn't find anything comparable - from the same source
and window of time - for Java trends on the web, there was an article
released by Netcraft in January of this year that shows PHPs continued
growth[1].  It may, at the least, provide a basis for comparison
should you or your adversary be so inclined to dig deeper.


^1: 
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/01/31/php-just-grows-grows.html

-- 

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Lester Caine]

Sebastian Krebs wrote:

1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows
>the difference between Java and JavaScript.
>

OKOK, sorry -_-
But @topic: For example see
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language.


>2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over "which is best") is
>the main reason why things prosper.


I think he is simply wrong in his interpretation of the facts. The number of 
websites powered by PHP vastly exceeds Java and every other language

http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
Says it all!

But you would never use PHP for a distributed application, and then 
http://www.langpop.com/ comes into play when the fight is between Java and C/C++ 
and personally I'm happier with C/C++ than Java even on Android. But even though 
you would not use PHP for distributed applications, it still gets a good 4th in 
that chart as well.


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Sebastian Krebs]

2013/8/20 Tedd Sperling 

> On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:29 AM, Sebastian Krebs  wrote:
> > Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as
> _web_-language ;)
> > I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very
> popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different
> use-cases, thus saying "one is more popular" doesn't tell you anything
> about whether they are in competition against each other, or not (hint:
> they arent : :D).
>
> Two things:
>
> 1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows
> the difference between Java and JavaScript.
>

OKOK, sorry -_-
But @topic: For example see
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language.


> 2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over "which is best") is
> the main reason why things prosper.
>

I am not saying, that Java is bad, or it is not popular. It is just not
that popular in the web-ecosystem :)
There was one statement I remember (I don't know, where I got it from): A
static language doesn't fit very well into the dynamic web. :)


>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
>
>
> ___
> tedd sperling
> t...@sperling.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[David OBrien]

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:56 AM, David OBrien  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Tedd Sperling  wrote:
>
>> On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:36 AM, "Liam"  wrote:
>> > You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast
>> > majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Liam
>>
>>
>> I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there
>> are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking.
>> Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The
>> people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is
>> no support.
>>
>> My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> tedd
>>
>>
>> ___
>> tedd sperling
>> t...@sperling.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>
>
>

If your looking for popularity...
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all

Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[David OBrien]

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Tedd Sperling  wrote:

> On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:36 AM, "Liam"  wrote:
> > You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast
> > majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Liam
>
>
> I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there
> are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking.
> Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The
> people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is
> no support.
>
> My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
>
> ___
> tedd sperling
> t...@sperling.com
>
>
>
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>

Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Marc Guay]

Here are two references from the Wikipedia article on Java in case you
haven't looked at them already.

http://www.langpop.com/
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

On 20 August 2013 10:43, Tedd Sperling  wrote:
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:36 AM, "Liam"  wrote:
>> You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast
>> majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Liam
>
>
> I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there are 
> professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking. 
> Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The 
> people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is no 
> support.
>
> My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
>
> ___
> tedd sperling
> t...@sperling.com
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Tedd Sperling]

On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:36 AM, "Liam"  wrote:
> You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast
> majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument.
> 
> Regards,
> Liam


I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there are 
professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking. 
Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The 
people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is no 
support.

My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias.

Cheers,

tedd


___
tedd sperling
t...@sperling.com



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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Tedd Sperling]

On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:29 AM, Sebastian Krebs  wrote:
> Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as _web_-language ;)
> I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very 
> popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different use-cases, 
> thus saying "one is more popular" doesn't tell you anything about whether 
> they are in competition against each other, or not (hint: they arent : :D).

Two things:

1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows the 
difference between Java and JavaScript.
2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over "which is best") is the 
main reason why things prosper. 

Cheers,

tedd



___
tedd sperling
t...@sperling.com






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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Bastien Koert]

I think the big takeaway there is that JAVA is one of the primary language
for larger companies and applications. Start ups tend to use smaller easier
to use tools like php / javascript / python / ruby.

I saw one figure recently that put php at 75% of websites out there (i
think that came out when google decided to support php for the app engine)



On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Tedd Sperling  wrote:

> On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Ashley Sheridan 
> wrote:
> > Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ash
>
> No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to
> what he has to say.
>
> Here's an interesting link:
>
> http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/
>
> But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than
> "Android Java", which I do not believe is also included in the above Java
> number.
>
> I think there is more going on here than what I know.
>
> For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the
> max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the
> college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an
> overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is "Why?"
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> tedd
>
> ___
> tedd sperling
> t...@sperling.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Tedd Sperling]

> The article very clearly says..
> 
> No language can be considered as good just because there are more jobs for 
> the same.
> 

Yes, but I am not making a value (good/bad) judgment -- Instead I am asking for 
references supporting which language (Java or PHP) as being the most popular 
for Web Development?

Do you have any?

Cheers,

tedd

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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Sebastian Krebs]

2013/8/20 Tedd Sperling 

> On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Ashley Sheridan 
> wrote:
> > Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ash
>
> No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to
> what he has to say.
>
> Here's an interesting link:
>
> http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/
>
> But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than
> "Android Java", which I do not believe is also included in the above Java
> number.
>
> I think there is more going on here than what I know.
>
> For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the
> max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the
> college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an
> overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is "Why?"
>

Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as _web_-language
;)
I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very
popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different
use-cases, thus saying "one is more popular" doesn't tell you anything
about whether they are in competition against each other, or not (hint:
they arent : :D).


>
> Cheers,
>
>
> tedd
>
> ___
> tedd sperling
> t...@sperling.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Stephen]

On 13-08-20 10:19 AM, Tedd Sperling wrote:

On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Ashley Sheridan  wrote:

Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?

Thanks,
Ash

No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to what 
he has to say.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/

But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than "Android 
Java", which I do not believe is also included in the above Java number.

I think there is more going on here than what I know.

For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the max, whereas my 
PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the college could have advertised 
my PHP class more, but still there is an overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My 
questions is "Why?"


I think that the overwhelming majority of Android apps are written in 
JAVA. That explains its popularity.


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Tedd Sperling]

On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Ashley Sheridan  wrote:
> Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ash

No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to what 
he has to say.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/

But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than 
"Android Java", which I do not believe is also included in the above Java 
number.

I think there is more going on here than what I know.

For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the max, 
whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the college 
could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an overwhelming 
demand for Java Programmers. My questions is "Why?"

Cheers,


tedd

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t...@sperling.com






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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Stephen]

On 13-08-20 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling wrote:

Hi guys:

A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is 
more popular than PHP.

Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any 
of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)

Here are my two references:

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all

http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y

But I do not know how accurate they are.



I think you can use w3techs.com as a very reliable source.

But your teacher may have been talking about "javascript" which is not 
the same thing as java despite the similarity in their names.


Javascript is part of the web page, and executes in the users browser. 
It is very common and may rival PHP in frequency of use.


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA

[Ashley Sheridan]

Tedd Sperling  wrote:
>Hi guys:
>
>A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web
>Development is more popular than PHP.
>
>Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what
>references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a
>teacher, huh?)
>
>Here are my two references:
>
>http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
>
>http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
>
>
>But I do not know how accurate they are.
>
>What say you?
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>tedd
>
>___
>tedd sperling
>t...@sperling.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?

Thanks,
Ash

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Re: [PHP] php vs java....

[Richard Lynch]

GH wrote:
> Can you please explain Threads to me?

Well, you start with some sheep... :-)


Real Answer:

[with gross simplifiations and outright "lies" to keep things easy]

Imagine that you have a program that wants to SEEM to be doing multiple
things at once.

For example, it wants to have a background window downloading and checking
email with a nice progress bar, while in the front window, you are reading
your email, deleting the junk, writing email, etc but *NOT* waiting for
the download to finish.

So, in essence, your program has two little separate programs running
inside of it, even though it's really really only one program.

Those two little programs are called "threads"

And once you can have two threads, there ain't nothing to stop you from
having three, four, or a hundred threads...  In theory.  You're going to
run out of system resources like RAM and stuff at some point.

Now, on the plus side, that makes it possible to do certain things that
were not feasible before.  Like having two things going on "at once"

On the downside, there is some overhead for each thread just to run.  And
really really only *ONE* thread can be truly "running" on the processor at
any given time.  Multiple CPUs increase the number of threads that can
run, at least in theory, but you can only run one thread at one time in
one processor.  So a Xeon Quad could have four truly simultaneous threads
going at one time, all from the same program.

The bigger downside is that writing good threads that don't step on each
others' toes is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY HARD.

They add huge major complexities to your code base, because EVERY line of
code in thread A has to worry about what it *MIGHT* do that *MIGHT* screw
up the code in thread B.

So, take the number of lines in your program, times the number of lines in
your program, and that's the number of potential flaws you have to watch
out for. :-)

Threads complicate the ability to scale your application by only throwing
more hardware at it (as Rasmus just said).

So hard, that many (all?) PHP Core Team Members don't think adding threads
is a Good Idea (tm) because the benefits are outweighed by the costs for
the target audience of PHP scripters.

Other languages have other features, and the language designers have made
informed (or not) desicions to add (or not) those features.

I personally don't think PHP *needs* threads, and it would complicate far
too many things if they were added -- certainly they shouldn't just be
"on" automatically so PHP scripters can start making threads willy-nilly!
That way lies madness.  You'd have a zillion BAD scripts out there using
threads in wildly inappropriate situations.

I suppose that a 'thread' extension could be added, at least in theory...

By all means, those of you who want such a feature are free to start
coding :-)

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Re: [PHP] php vs java....

[Brent Baisley]

Perhaps in specific areas related to the web. But Java is so much more  
extensive than PHP, I doubt PHP will ever eclipse it.

On Jan 1, 2005, at 1:07 PM, Lewis LaCook wrote:
...just looking for opinions: will PHP eclipse (IS PHP
eclipsing) Java?
bliss
lewis lacook
=
*** 


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http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/ Appendix M  
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Re: [PHP] php vs java....

[Greg Donald]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:48:01 -0500, GH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can you please explain Threads to me?

Multiple isolated tasks executing at the same time.


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Re: [PHP] php vs java....

[GH]

Can you please explain Threads to me?


On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:38:50 -0600, Greg Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:07:20 -0800 (PST), Lewis LaCook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > ...just looking for opinions: will PHP eclipse (IS PHP
> > eclipsing) Java?
> 
> I'd like to see threads added to PHP.  Java has them, and Perl does as
> well.  And I'm sure there are others that I don't know about.
> 
> --
> Greg Donald
> Zend Certified Engineer
> http://gdconsultants.com/
> http://destiney.com/
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Re: [PHP] php vs java....

[Greg Donald]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:07:20 -0800 (PST), Lewis LaCook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...just looking for opinions: will PHP eclipse (IS PHP
> eclipsing) Java?

I'd like to see threads added to PHP.  Java has them, and Perl does as
well.  And I'm sure there are others that I don't know about.


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs. Java

[raditha dissanayake]

Ed Lazor wrote:
Any comments or opinions on pros and cons, especially in terms of stability,
security, and future upgradability?
 

This is a a religious war topic. Horses for course but in this list of 
PHP fanatics you should expect only one answer - PHP is better for web 
applications - no contest when it comes to mobiles or desktop applications.


I know this is probably one of those religious war topics, but I'd still
like your feedback.

-Ed

 


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs. Java

[Alberto Serra]

ðÒÉ×ÅÔ!

IMHO java is to be avoided. fullstop. Still, it might be unavoidable 
from a commercial point of view. In that case, you should avoid being 
involved in the project and let the marketing dept have their fun on 
their own.

There's a lot of pleasantly paid jobs that won't kill your nerves on 
this planet. Whatever you say now *you* will be responsible for it. So 
keep away from suicidal attempts.

Java *may* properly work (but it will never work half as fast as PHP 
will) but you are not going to find an adequate number of skilled 
resources to make that happen.

And when your unproper underpaid resources will turn your java soup into 
a slw boiling mess, guess who will pay for that? Got a mirror home? :)

I saw a project based on IBM San Francisco last ONE YEAR before being 
thrown out of the window (along with its manager). The best result of 
the project was in that it could query a table of 500 rows in only... 45 
seconds. New olympic record.

And no, I was not the manager. My spider sense told me to keep well away 
from it :)

ÐÏËÁ
áÌØÂÅÒÔÏ
ëÉÅ×

@-_=}{=_-@-_=}{=_-@-_=}{=_-@-_=}{=_-@-_=}{=_-@-_=}{=_-@-_=}{=_-@

LoRd, CaN yOu HeAr Me, LiKe I'm HeArInG yOu?
lOrD i'M sHiNiNg...
YoU kNoW I AlMoSt LoSt My MiNd, BuT nOw I'm HoMe AnD fReE
tHe TeSt, YeS iT iS
ThE tEsT, yEs It Is
tHe TeSt, YeS iT iS
ThE tEsT, yEs It Is...


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Re: [PHP] PHP vs. Java

[Anas Mughal]

I agree with the other reply to your question.
My thoughts could be summarized as follows:

- Java solution would be more expensive and involved
to build and maintain.
- PHP would be cheaper and quicker to build and
maintain.

- Java would require more resources on your server.
- PHP is light weight and fast.

- Java is a mature OO language. So, if designed
properly, would be easier to modify and/or extend
functionality. 
- In my opinion, PHP is not a mature OO language. It
might get there sometime in the future. However, PHP
is very well suited for the goals it was designed for.


My choice would be Java. 
(Keep in mind that it will be easier to sell Java to
the corporate guys. Some executives shy away from open
source.)

Good luck!!!



--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm being asked you evaluate a fairly complex web
> project using the MS SQL
> Server 2000 back-end.  A large application will be
> built, involving lots of
> technical and financial information from multiple
> sources and types of sources
> input daily, weekly, monthly, etc.  Reports will
> also be run daily, weekly,
> monthly, etc., against this data.  All the data
> including input, views and
> reports has to work well with a standard web browser
> client, although some of
> the reports will be emailed to clients who use
> Blackberry PDAs.
> 
> I'd rather take more time with the specifics before
> committing to a single
> technology but the client is asking which technology
> we'd propose before they
> award the job.
> 
> At this point I'm leaning towards PHP as the
> solution (although to CIOs, I'm
> sure 'Java' is still a sexier word than 'PHP'), but
> I'd like to ask for
> general opinions on the value of PHP vs. Java
> (specifically Apache Struts-type
> J2EE applications) for this kind of web-enabled
> application.
> 
> Thanks very much in advance.
> 
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> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
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RE: [PHP] PHP vs. Java

[Jay Blanchard]

[snip]
I'm being asked you evaluate a fairly complex web project using the MS SQL
Server 2000 back-end.  A large application will be built, involving lots of
technical and financial information from multiple sources and types of
sources
input daily, weekly, monthly, etc.  Reports will also be run daily, weekly,
monthly, etc., against this data.  All the data including input, views and
reports has to work well with a standard web browser client, although some
of
the reports will be emailed to clients who use Blackberry PDAs.

I'd rather take more time with the specifics before committing to a single
technology but the client is asking which technology we'd propose before
they
award the job.

At this point I'm leaning towards PHP as the solution (although to CIOs, I'm
sure 'Java' is still a sexier word than 'PHP'), but I'd like to ask for
general opinions on the value of PHP vs. Java (specifically Apache
Struts-type
J2EE applications) for this kind of web-enabled application.
[/snip]

I am not going to go at this from a JAVA vs. PHP viewpoint as each have
strengths in certain applications. What I will do is evangelize about PHP
for the application you describe.

We regularly use PHP for "Enterprise Level" applications for a number of
reasons including development time, application speed, modularity,
cross-platform stability, usability in many situations (for instance, we
have many PHP functions that run as standalone scripts or in conjunction
with other shell scripting languages that can be called from timed events,
such as those found in CRON jobs and other command line executions). I will
give you an instance;

Retrieve files from remote location each day,
Extract needed files each day,
Parse files,
Import parsed files into database,
Do multiple reports in multiple versions (Excel, HTML, PDF, etc),
Request needed files from database,
Put those files into usable form for billing application,
Forward those files to the appropriate location for billing.

Eventually we will move our entire billing, customer service, aging and
collection information to a PHP application(s) running in a set of
web-interfaces...replacing legacy software, some of which still runs as a
DOS application. PHP is a terrific solution for developing such a large
scale application as modules can be added to the application either
singularly or in groups to add needed functionality to the overall
application without compromising other modules utilizing the same data. We
receive millions of records each week that are handled by the PHP
applications, it has the needed horsepower.

>From a testing and approval standpoint it allows the cycle to be shortened
from conception to production, a very good thing. Errors can be quickly
found and corrected while new functionality does not require rewriting tons
of code. If you plan carefully each module can remain independent enough
from other modules, allowing modules to be added or depricated without
affect the performance of other modules. Sound database planning is also key
to this.

As for the PDA's PHP plays well with XSLT, CSS, and any other formatting
tool that you can think of to deliver reports. The same report data can be
formatted by PHP using these tools for many different interfaces (again,
modularity).

PHP, to my way of thinking, is easier to maintain for others who may have to
come in contact with your code after you have gone down the road to another
project. It is well documented and features tons of extensions that can be
added to the core for increased functionality (i.e.
http://www.phpclasses.org/mirrors.html?page=%2Findex.html).

And finally, you can use JAVA with PHP should the need arise, therefore not
locking yourself into a particualr technology and allowing you to flex the
strengths of appropriate technologies for appropriate tasks.

My .02¢

Jay






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