Re: [PLUG] Replace the CPU

[Tomas Kuchta]

This so easy to answer:
A) get any nice laptop with Linux - VNC to your desktop for speed.
B) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+fastest+killer+laptop+in+the+world+ever

All laptops are slow compared to desktop, workstation or a server powered
directly from the powerplant.

Lol, Tomas

Seriously, what you have is still pretty fast as laptops go. Speed needs
power and cooling - not quite what laptops are for.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:00 PM John Jason Jordan  wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 11:00:54 -0700
> John Jason Jordan  dijo:
>
> >I have recently developed a desire to increase the speed of my 4.5
> >year-old laptop. It came with a 4th generation Intel Core i7-4800 MQ
> >processor, 2.7 GHz, 6MB L3 cache, 4 cores, plus hyperthreading.
> >Assuming it's not soldered to the motherboard, are there now faster
> >CPUs that will fit in the socket? If so, recommendations?
>
> I've just discovered from System76 that the CPU for "this laptop version
> isn't in a normal socket that allows easy upgrades."
>
> Bah. Now I'm thinking of a new laptop. After all, this one will be five
> years old in November, hard as it is for me to believe that. Man, that
> Tempus dude just fugits his tail along, doesn't he?
>
> So now I have a new question: Considering that I need CPU speed, what
> is the fastest CPU currently available in laptops?
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Re: [PLUG] WHAT is the question? Re: To wiki ...

[Richard Owlett]

On 09/12/2018 05:50 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 04:03:33PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Where should I go looking?


http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html



Haven't been referred there in quite awhile ;/

A more prosaic subject line might have been:
 "When/Why use a wiki? An alternative?"

Perhaps deleting two sentences from the body would have reduced noise.

It could have read:
"My underlying problem is OS independent. However, I seek a Linux 
oriented solution. My language of choice does have a wiki. HOWEVER, 
anyone can modify anything at any time without immediate checks/balances."


For detailed questions I participate in ~40 mailing lists and USENET 
groups. I've yet to find any web based fora which I can navigate.


I mention wikis as I look for background. Wikipedia is well written but 
to broadly aimed. Arch wiki is well written and easily navigated but is 
narrowly focused.


Overall, I still like my original subject line,
   "To wiki or not to wiki. THAT is the question."
over the more prosaic
"When/Why use a wiki? An alternative?"

Thank you.




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Re: [PLUG] Replace the CPU

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018, John Jason Jordan wrote:


So now I have a new question: Considering that I need CPU speed, what is
the fastest CPU currently available in laptops?


John,

  Are you sure you're constrained by CPU speed and not memory speed or
amount?

  Regardless, have a looksee here:


Regards,

Rich
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Re: [PLUG] WHAT is the question? Re: To wiki ...

[Bill Barry]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:24 PM Richard Owlett  wrote:

> On 09/12/2018 05:50 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 04:03:33PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >> Where should I go looking?
> >
> > http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> >
>
> Haven't been referred there in quite awhile ;/
>
> A more prosaic subject line might have been:
>   "When/Why use a wiki? An alternative?"
>
> But it is a good read if you have time!

When/Why use a wiki for for what?  What question are you asking? Why do you
want to use a wiki? What do you want do with it?

Bill
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Re: [PLUG] WHAT is the question? Re: To wiki ...

[Tyrell Jentink]

Here's where I perceive a communication gap: I think Richard Owlett is
looking for a community to support him in his (Sometimes eccentric)
projects... He has many, but none are quite eccentric enough, so he is
begging for us to point him to more...

But he isn't ASKING that... He's asking weather or not he should wiki...
And what that question ignores, and I think some of us technically minded
folk are getting hung up on, is that "Wiki" isn't a community, per se, it
is a software... And on the "Wiki software platform," communities can be
built...

Actually, that is probably also a poor way of looking at it... Wikis are
where communities get documented... Forums are where they discuss topics...
Mailing Lists are where they make announcements and coordinate events and
activities... All of these softwares are tools used by communities to
promote communication and ensure continuity.

The problem I perceive here is that Richard Owlett is focused on the
software, not on the community.

I THINK he seeks a community.

And I don't think any of us can help with that... Despite our best efforts.
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Re: [PLUG] WHAT is the question? Re: To wiki ...

[Richard Owlett]

On 09/13/2018 08:08 AM, Bill Barry wrote:

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:24 PM Richard Owlett  wrote:


On 09/12/2018 05:50 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 04:03:33PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Where should I go looking?


http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html



Haven't been referred there in quite awhile ;/

A more prosaic subject line might have been:
   "When/Why use a wiki? An alternative?"

But it is a good read if you have time!


When/Why use a wiki for for what?  What question are you asking? Why do you
want to use a wiki? What do you want do with it?



Thought I answered that saying:



It could have read:
"My underlying problem is OS independent. However, I seek a Linux oriented 
solution.
My language of choice does have a wiki. HOWEVER, anyone can modify anything at 
any time
without immediate checks/balances."

For detailed questions I participate in ~40 mailing lists and USENET groups. 
[snip] >
I mention wikis as I look for background. Wikipedia is well written but to 
broadly aimed.
Arch wiki is well written and easily navigated but is narrowly focused.





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Re: [PLUG] WHAT is the question? Re: To wiki ...

[Tyrell Jentink]

>
>  When/Why use a wiki for for what?  What question are you asking? Why do
> you
> > want to use a wiki? What do you want do with it?
> >
>
> Thought I answered that [...]
>

No, you did not...

> It could have read:
> > "My underlying problem is OS independent. However, I seek a Linux
> oriented solution.
>

No problem statement... Just a statement that a problem exists...

> My language of choice does have a wiki.


No identification of what the language is, or if you mean (Your language of
choice supports BEING a Wiki) or (Your language of choice can WRITE to a
Wiki) or (Your language of choice can READ from a wiki) or (Your language
of choice is DOCUMENTED in a wiki)? Remember, wiki is just a software... so
Do you see how each of those is a radically different question?

HOWEVER, anyone can modify anything at any time
> > without immediate checks/balances."
>

So... You blindly distrust all of them, regardless of the former answer...
So what am I answering again?

> For detailed questions I participate in ~40 mailing lists and USENET
> groups. [snip] >
> > I mention wikis as I look for background. Wikipedia is well written but
> to broadly aimed.
> > Arch wiki is well written and easily navigated but is narrowly focused.
>

So... You are looking for a community, not a wiki... Although, that
community might have a wiki, in which case you can decide for yourself if
you trust it.

We cant point you at a community unless you tell us more about what you are
looking for... A question you have not even remotely approached answering.
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[PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Tyrell Jentink]

I'm a young'n; I don't remember 4.4BSD or Research UNIX... I also come to
Linux from an IT background, not a Computer Science background, and maybe I
lack a certain historical perspective as a consequence.

I was recently reading an article that claimed Linux is insecure, because
of it's monolithic kernel codebase:
https://threatpost.com/researchers-blame-monolithic-linux-code-base-for-critical-vulnerabilities/136785/


That lead me down a trail of research on Wikipedia, trying to figure out
what they meant by that...  And I discovered a number of interesting things:

First, Many are likening it to a modern incarnation of the
Tanenbaun-Torvalds debates of the early '90s, which are also fascinating
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum–Torvalds_debate

But also, UNIX itself is old hat: Research Unix was a 1960s and 70's
approach to operating mainframes... By the 80's, Bell Labs had grown bored,
and wanted to start playing with distributed systems on commodity PCs, and
they started a new project, Plan 9 From Bell Labs (
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs); They doubled down
on the "Everything is a file, Programs should be small, and APIs should be
text based" philosophies... And they created the 9P2000 file sharing
protocol to share all of these "All resources are files" resources with
other computers... They also ignored existing standards, and had no
patience for existing software... It's still around, in the form of a
forked project called 9FRONT, http://9front.org. Fair warning: If you think
*BSD people are rude, these guys are worse in that they are also big fans
of sarcasm and irony... Rumor has it that new users regularly leave the IRC
crying...

9P2000 is still around, too, as the V9FS on Linux and many Unix like
operating systems, and growing popular in VM communities,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P_(protocol)

Then Bell Labs grew bored again... And in the 90's, built Inferno (
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system) ), a system
built from lessons learned on Plan 9 From Bell Labs, but featuring a VM not
unlike Java; In fact, it can recompile Java bytecode to run natively.
Inferno is still around, developed by a third party:
http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/

Both Plan 9 From Bell Labs and Inferno featured Microkernel technologies...
And in the '90s, Computer Science nerds grew obsessed over microkernels,
and born was the L4 microkernel architecture (
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family); They never say so,
but one can see many design similarities between all of the microkernels
and the earlier Plan 9/Inferno experiments.

Where many like to argue that "Linux isn't an OS without GNU,"
microkernels are even less an OS than Linux... in that it doesn't even
directly manage user rights or block devices or network routing... All of
that gets built as servers running in userspace, and THIS is the security
the original article was citing: By getting all that complicated and
potentially buggy software out of the kernel, the kernel can then protect
from the faulty code, and UNIX like operating systems can be built on top.

Another project, Genode (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genode), aims to
add all the services needed to build more of the supporting framework of an
OS, I think of L4+Genode as being analogous to Linux; And a third, SculptOS
(https://genode.org/download/sculpt), to make it all a usable desktop OS,
akin to GNU/Linux.

SculptOS isn't a Unix system per se, and they are quick to say so in their
documentation, but they do use familiar tools as a convenient interface to
the system... Like Bash and VIM.

SculptOS is actually pretty cool, in that they achieved "General Purpose
OS" status by paravirtualizing Linux itself on top of the L4 kernel...
Think of it as GNU/Linux/L4 (GNU on Linux on L4), or something... I'm still
learning, too. There is a slight performance hit, but at 4%, it is
significantly less than a fully virtualized operating system... I think it
would be cool to run Windows and Linux side-by-side, each with only
marginal performance costs, and each running as a user service...

The guys over at ReactOS dismiss L4 as "Just a Hypervisor," but I think
they are missing the big picture... This is opening the door to running
entire operating systems as services next to each other... It's like
Docker, but with WHOLE OPERATING SYSTEMS!

I'm pretty excited... It's like taking my computer from a timeline where
the world stopped evolving in the 1960s, to something... A bit more
adventurous.

At least... It feels that way on paper... And so far, I'm living on paper,
LOL.

Of course... This entire history lesson ignores Mach, which is the
Microkernel under Mac OS and GNU/Hurd, and that might be interesting, too,
if GNU/Hurd weren't developing inside a drum of molasses in the Arctic...

Anyone else playing with any of these "next generation" operating systems?

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 05:25 Richard Owlett  wrote:

> On 09/12/2018 05:50

Re: [PLUG] Replace the CPU

[John Jason Jordan]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 05:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
Rich Shepard  dijo:

>On Wed, 12 Sep 2018, John Jason Jordan wrote:
>
>> So now I have a new question: Considering that I need CPU speed,
>> what is the fastest CPU currently available in laptops?  

>Are you sure you're constrained by CPU speed and not memory speed or
>amount?
>

I'm sure that memory speed is part of what's constraining me, and that
is one reason that I am considering a new laptop. My current laptop has
DDR3 at 1600 and that's all it will take. I'm considering upgrading it
from the original 16GB to 32GB, but it will still be the same speed. A
new laptop, however, will take DDR4 at 2400, so that is one reason for
considering a new laptop.

Last night I did a bit of shopping and stumbled across a Lenovo P71,
which offer several CPU options, including a Xeon instead of a Core i7.
I like almost everything about it, except that it has a shortage of USB
ports, and only 3.0 at that. Also Lenovo's site is short on
information. On the other hand, Lenovo sells a real docking station for
it, which probably has additional USB ports.

The predecessor to my current System76 Bonobo Extreme was a Lenovo
Thinkpad T61. I replaced it after five years even though it was still
working because of the need for speed, plus I worried that it might
fail at a crucial moment. After about six months my System76 developed
video problems that required replacing the motherboard (under
warranty). When I bought it I had installed an mSATA SSD for the boot
drive, so before shipping it back to System76 I removed the drive,
bought a USB to mSATA adapter, plugged it into the old Thinkpad, et
voià! I was back in business, not even a problem with the video. Slower
than the second coming, but at least my life could continue
uninterrupted. So one of the things I want to find out about the P71 is
what kind of internal drive connectors it has. If it has an mSATA port
that would be awesome.

This Sunday at the Clinic I intend to remove the bottom panel from my
System76 and poke around. At the very least it needs removal of nearly
five years of dust, but I also want to see what kind of RAM it has and
take a look at the CPU socket.
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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Paul Heinlein]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018, Tyrell Jentink wrote:

I'm a young'n; I don't remember 4.4BSD or Research UNIX... I also 
come to Linux from an IT background, not a Computer Science 
background, and maybe I lack a certain historical perspective as a 
consequence.


I was recently reading an article that claimed Linux is insecure, 
because of it's monolithic kernel codebase:


[ much snippage ]

Anyone else playing with any of these "next generation" operating 
systems?


I haven't been around as some on this list, but here are my brief 
observations. (Well, they were brief -- until I actually starting 
writing them.)


1. Follow the work first, technology second.

The most important factor in any technological deployment is the work 
it allows us to achieve and, more pointedly, to monetize.


It's true that new technology can open new workflows (read: new 
business opportunities), but in general that's a secondary concern for 
all but the most disruptive of technologies.


2. Security is a trade-off, not an absolute

Yes, Linux has and will always have insecurities. As long as an OS has 
a way to elevate permissions (root account, sudo, etc) and people use 
those elevated permissions, insecurity will be an issue. As long as 
people are imperfect, security will not be an absolute; it will be an 
exercise in seeing how many roadblocks you can erect to keep people 
from crime or carelessness.


Again, follow the work not the tech. If someone can achieve clearly 
better work (the shorthand for which is often but not always "make 
more money") deploying the "more secure" OS, then the technology 
becomes interesting. Just remember all the costs involved in deploying 
a new platform: porting userspace applications; training 
administrators, developers, and users; paying for deep support.


3. People are social creatures

Despite thousands of years devising ethical and educational standards, 
people still tend to follow the crowd in most areas of their lives 
rather than strike off by themselves toward excellence.


This has upsides: we don't have to investigate every choice we face 
from the ground up, which would exhaust even the hardest-striving 
among us. And downsides: it's easy to achieve mediocrity and only 
slightly less easy to follow the crowd to evil (see: genocide, 
rioting, etc).


So even a compelling vision of technical excellence will get you 
nowhere without a compelling human story behind it.


4. It's still worth it

Achieving technical excellence may still be worth it to you. I don't 
intend the foregoing points to invoke cynicism. Strike out on your 
own! Excellence is very difficult, but worthwhile. On rare occasions, 
it changes society.


But do so with your eyes open. It's got to be worth it to you, on your 
own and without social and financial support. People may follow you, 
but they most likely won't. Only you know whether the likelihood of 
solitude in your endeavor is an obstacle you're willing to face.


--
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Re: [PLUG] Which distribution for new user?

[Richard England]

On 9/12/18 5:00 PM, John Jason Jordan wrote:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 15:49:01 -0700 (PDT)
Rich Shepard  dijo:


   Less than obvious way:

wget http://futurist.se/gldt/wp-content/uploads/12.10/gldt1210.svg

   Then there's the issue of viewing it. 'display' doesn't seem to
work; inkscape might.

Wget worked, and it views OK in Inkscape, although my default GUI
viewer wouldn't open it.

The problem is that it is only 2220x10112 pixels. And in Inkscape I can
select objects but they appear to be bitmaps, so scaling will be a
problem.

In any event, looking at it satisfied me that my 12x18 printer is not
nearly big enough. We need one of those big printers that drafting
people use. And first we need an image of much higher resolution.
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Consider taking the file to a FedEx or UPS / Copy center where they 
advertise printing posters.


~R

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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Tyrell Jentink]

Fair enough; I read a quote a few days ago, but can't find it again to
properly cite... It was in reference to If Plan 9 Is Truly Better, Why
Linux? And it was to the effect of "The biggest risk to Great software is
Good Enough software," and that may be true...

But getting "Stuck" on 1960s technology isn't "Progress" either... And at
what point should the world suck it up, and swallow the cost of upgrading
For The Greater Good?

I also believe in competition, natural selection, and survival of the
fittest... 15 years ago, when I was first getting into Linux, I argued that
a heterogeneous population of hardware and software will encourage the
hurd-immunity of the whole  network... I argued that me, personally using
Linux actually made the whole internet safer, as a particular threat is
unlikely  to be effective against me,  AND the Windows Users, AND the Mac
OS users, etc. The "Diversity" was a good thing. And I THINK the researcher
in the original security article was making a similar point: By encouraging
competition among similar but not identical implimentations,  some will be
"Better" than others in certain ways, worse in others; Vulnerable to some
attacks, immune to others... But to hide it all away in the kernel prevents
competition... Interferes with the "Many Eyes" principle that Open Source
argues in favor of.

I guess I'm concerned that there isn't enough competition to keep the
internet safe. I'm concerned that capitalism, and the acceptance of work
flows that "Technically work, and are cheap enough to not want better" is
the enemy at hand...
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Re: [PLUG] Replace the CPU

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018, John Jason Jordan wrote:


I'm sure that memory speed is part of what's constraining me, and that
is one reason that I am considering a new laptop. My current laptop has
DDR3 at 1600 and that's all it will take. I'm considering upgrading it
from the original 16GB to 32GB, but it will still be the same speed. A
new laptop, however, will take DDR4 at 2400, so that is one reason for
considering a new laptop.


John,

  You have a newly assembled desktop which I assume has plenty of DDR4 RAM.
Consider using that as was suggested earlier in this thread. Desktops tend
to be faster than laptops because the latter are not meant for heavy duty
work. Desktops can also be easily upgraded, both CPU and memory; and you
have the USB3.1+ ports you want. Udderwise, why'd you upgrade the desktop?
:-)

Regards,

Rich

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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Louis Kowolowski]

I think what may be overlooked here is that the entire premise is that a 
microkernel architecture is more secure because it (may) not suffer from the 
same problems that a monolithic kernel does. This may be true. What it doesn't 
address is what flaws a microkernel architecture has that a monolithic kernel 
does not. The notion that 1 architecture is 100% superior seems...unlikely. To 
me, this means it is less a question of which is better (since we're not 
actually comparing apples to apples) and which is easier to get work done with 
(because this is afterall, the point. If we can't get work done with it, it 
doesn't matter how good it is, its terrible). From this perspective, you can 
pick your poison, get used to it, and go back to getting work done. If your 
goal is academic research, 

In terms of practical, I not aware of a microkernel architecture that is in 
broad use through the industry*, which means that, in terms of security, its 
effectively untested. Until you get thousands of people poking at something, 
you won't get an accurate representation of the security of a thing. Take a 
look at the CVE reports (mitre.org) for various popular platforms. They're 
pretty similar in terms of bug counts per year for at least the last 6yrs. Open 
Source, Closed Source doesn't have a lot of impact.


* Yes, I know that OS X (Mac OS) is based on Mach Microkernel, but its more of 
a hybrid between the 2 architectures, so any security analysis comparisons to 
either are somewhat complicated. History/Reference/Description that is 11yrs 
old now, and of course some of it has changed. 
https://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Fahrplan/attachments/986_inside_the_mac_osx_kernel.pdf

> On Sep 13, 2018, at 10:17 AM, Tyrell Jentink  wrote:
> 
> I'm a young'n; I don't remember 4.4BSD or Research UNIX... I also come to
> Linux from an IT background, not a Computer Science background, and maybe I
> lack a certain historical perspective as a consequence.
> 
> I was recently reading an article that claimed Linux is insecure, because
> of it's monolithic kernel codebase:
> https://threatpost.com/researchers-blame-monolithic-linux-code-base-for-critical-vulnerabilities/136785/
> 
> 
> That lead me down a trail of research on Wikipedia, trying to figure out
> what they meant by that...  And I discovered a number of interesting things:
> 
> First, Many are likening it to a modern incarnation of the
> Tanenbaun-Torvalds debates of the early '90s, which are also fascinating
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum–Torvalds_debate
> 
> But also, UNIX itself is old hat: Research Unix was a 1960s and 70's
> approach to operating mainframes... By the 80's, Bell Labs had grown bored,
> and wanted to start playing with distributed systems on commodity PCs, and
> they started a new project, Plan 9 From Bell Labs (
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs); They doubled down
> on the "Everything is a file, Programs should be small, and APIs should be
> text based" philosophies... And they created the 9P2000 file sharing
> protocol to share all of these "All resources are files" resources with
> other computers... They also ignored existing standards, and had no
> patience for existing software... It's still around, in the form of a
> forked project called 9FRONT, http://9front.org. Fair warning: If you think
> *BSD people are rude, these guys are worse in that they are also big fans
> of sarcasm and irony... Rumor has it that new users regularly leave the IRC
> crying...
> 
> 9P2000 is still around, too, as the V9FS on Linux and many Unix like
> operating systems, and growing popular in VM communities,
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P_(protocol)
> 
> Then Bell Labs grew bored again... And in the 90's, built Inferno (
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system) ), a system
> built from lessons learned on Plan 9 From Bell Labs, but featuring a VM not
> unlike Java; In fact, it can recompile Java bytecode to run natively.
> Inferno is still around, developed by a third party:
> http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/
> 
> Both Plan 9 From Bell Labs and Inferno featured Microkernel technologies...
> And in the '90s, Computer Science nerds grew obsessed over microkernels,
> and born was the L4 microkernel architecture (
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family); They never say so,
> but one can see many design similarities between all of the microkernels
> and the earlier Plan 9/Inferno experiments.
> 
> Where many like to argue that "Linux isn't an OS without GNU,"
> microkernels are even less an OS than Linux... in that it doesn't even
> directly manage user rights or block devices or network routing... All of
> that gets built as servers running in userspace, and THIS is the security
> the original article was citing: By getting all that complicated and
> potentially buggy software out of the kernel, the kernel can then protect
> from the faulty code, and UNIX like operating systems can be 

Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018, Tyrell Jentink wrote:


I'm a young'n; I don't remember 4.4BSD or Research UNIX... I also come to
Linux from an IT background, not a Computer Science background, and maybe
I lack a certain historical perspective as a consequence.


Tyrell,

  You're forgiven by us silverbacks.


I was recently reading an article that claimed Linux is insecure, because
of it's monolithic kernel codebase:
https://threatpost.com/researchers-blame-monolithic-linux-code-base-for-critical-vulnerabilities/136785/


  I've not read the above, but many distributions (including Slackware) use
modules so you're not loading everything even when some are not needed.
Slackware has two kernel versions: generic and huge. The huge kernel has
everything, including the kitchen sink, that's loaded when booted. The
generic kernels require an initrd (a small initial RAM disk that gets the
system started), then only the necessary kernels are loaded.

  Germane to security, other than potential vulnerabilities which have been
patched prior to exploitation, only the recent bind goof exposed potential
insecurity.

  Not only linux, but the *BSDs and the backbones of the Internet are open
source software. That's why they are highly secure: there are always folks
(including CS100 students) poking and trying to make it crash (as they did
with the IBM S/360 at the U. of Illinois in the early 1970s).

  Hope this helps reassure you.

Rich
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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Paul Heinlein]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018, Tyrell Jentink wrote:

Fair enough; I read a quote a few days ago, but can't find it again 
to properly cite... It was in reference to If Plan 9 Is Truly 
Better, Why Linux? And it was to the effect of "The biggest risk to 
Great software is Good Enough software," and that may be true...


Answer me this: who gets to define "great" in this context?

Chances are you'll find yourself vacillating between egocentrism (I or 
my close acquaintances), elitism (experts I trust), or populism (the 
market or broader society).


Think carefully before you make your choice.

--
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heinl...@madboa.com
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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Louis Kowolowski]

On Sep 13, 2018, at 12:11 PM, Tyrell Jentink  wrote:
> 
> ...
> I guess I'm concerned that there isn't enough competition to keep the
> internet safe. I'm concerned that capitalism, and the acceptance of work
> flows that "Technically work, and are cheap enough to not want better" is
> the enemy at hand...
> ...

I'm a little unclear how capitalism is related here. If we didn't use it, what 
would we use that would somehow mandate that people use sufficiently diverse 
things to maintain a notion of safety?

We have lots of browsers, but they all have to interoperate to be relevant. 
Enter web assembly, the next way to deliver malware to every browser.

--
Louis Kowolowskilou...@cryptomonkeys.org
Cryptomonkeys:   http://www.cryptomonkeys.com/

Making life more interesting for people since 1977

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Re: [PLUG] Replace the CPU

[John Jason Jordan]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 10:16:03 -0700 (PDT)
Rich Shepard  dijo:

>You have a newly assembled desktop which I assume has plenty of
> DDR4 RAM.

No, only 16GB, although easily upgraded.

>Consider using that as was suggested earlier in this thread. Desktops
>tend to be faster than laptops because the latter are not meant for
>heavy duty work. Desktops can also be easily upgraded, both CPU and
>memory; and you have the USB3.1+ ports you want. Udderwise, why'd you
>upgrade the desktop? :-)

I built the new desktop because its predecessor was 11 years old and
starting to have issues. And yes, I went to great lengths to ensure
that it had USB 3.1 Gen 2 and a fast CPU, but only to future-proof it. I
do not currently own any 3.1 Gen 2 devices, but I'm sure that someday I
will.

As for why I do not use it for my video work, sometimes I do. But my
main storage is in a 16TB USB 3.0 enclosure, and I don't know how to
connect it simultaneously to two computers. When I use the desktop for
video work I output to USB sticks and physically move them to the
laptop. I have done so a few times and it takes about half the time
that the task would have taken on the laptop.
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Re: [PLUG] Replace the CPU

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018, John Jason Jordan wrote:


You have a newly assembled desktop which I assume has plenty of
DDR4 RAM.


No, only 16GB, although easily upgraded.


  And at lower cost than a new laptop.


I built the new desktop because its predecessor was 11 years old and
starting to have issues. And yes, I went to great lengths to ensure that
it had USB 3.1 Gen 2 and a fast CPU, but only to future-proof it. I do not
currently own any 3.1 Gen 2 devices, but I'm sure that someday I will.


  OK, the USB ports are not a concern.


As for why I do not use it for my video work, sometimes I do. But my main
storage is in a 16TB USB 3.0 enclosure, and I don't know how to connect it
simultaneously to two computers. When I use the desktop for video work I
output to USB sticks and physically move them to the laptop. I have done
so a few times and it takes about half the time that the task would have
taken on the laptop.


  There are solutions for this. For example, do your video work on the
desktop and store results on the external 16T drive. Then, at your
convenience, connect that drive to your laptop and do your laptop stuff this
way. While I've not used the 'tee' command this way, it might send output
from, for example, the desktop to both the external hard drive and the
laptop, yet I suspect that it would.

  I would mount the external hard drive using samba (or NFS) so it's just
another drive on the network and accessible everywhere.

  Those more expert than I can guide you to no-cost solutions using what you
already have.

Rich
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Re: [PLUG] Replace the CPU

[Tomas Kuchta]

I suspected that you will have problem with using DAS when you were looking
for that while back. Most people do. That is what NAS are meant to solve.

Given what you have - I suggest connecting your DAS permanently to your
always on desktop or Synology NAS. Export the storage over NFS or CIFS or
both. Use it over network using autofs everywhere. No more messing with USB
sticks.

Note: If you chose to do this - check and synchronize UIDs before our
start. It doesn't matter over NFS/CIFS on NAS, but it does on your DAS.

Not saying that you do not deserve new laptop every once in a while :-)
Just do not expect miracles. --- Clean Ubuntu install on your laptop after
10+ distro in place upgrades would probably speed things up considerably in
your current setup.

On mSATA - current generation of laptops/desktops use NVMe instead. It
looks the same (except the notches), but it is much faster (2-3x) and it is
not backwards compatible with mSATA.

Tomas

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 11:12 AM Rich Shepard 
wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Sep 2018, John Jason Jordan wrote:
>
> >> You have a newly assembled desktop which I assume has plenty of
> >> DDR4 RAM.
> >
> > No, only 16GB, although easily upgraded.
>
>And at lower cost than a new laptop.
>
> > I built the new desktop because its predecessor was 11 years old and
> > starting to have issues. And yes, I went to great lengths to ensure that
> > it had USB 3.1 Gen 2 and a fast CPU, but only to future-proof it. I do
> not
> > currently own any 3.1 Gen 2 devices, but I'm sure that someday I will.
>
>OK, the USB ports are not a concern.
>
> > As for why I do not use it for my video work, sometimes I do. But my main
> > storage is in a 16TB USB 3.0 enclosure, and I don't know how to connect
> it
> > simultaneously to two computers. When I use the desktop for video work I
> > output to USB sticks and physically move them to the laptop. I have done
> > so a few times and it takes about half the time that the task would have
> > taken on the laptop.
>
>There are solutions for this. For example, do your video work on the
> desktop and store results on the external 16T drive. Then, at your
> convenience, connect that drive to your laptop and do your laptop stuff
> this
> way. While I've not used the 'tee' command this way, it might send output
> from, for example, the desktop to both the external hard drive and the
> laptop, yet I suspect that it would.
>
>I would mount the external hard drive using samba (or NFS) so it's just
> another drive on the network and accessible everywhere.
>
>Those more expert than I can guide you to no-cost solutions using what
> you
> already have.
>
> Rich
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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Robert Citek]

Just a minor nit:


Though "survival of the fittest" is the catchphrase of natural selection,
"survival of the fit enough" is more accurate.


https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#b6

Regards,
- Robert


On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:11 AM Tyrell Jentink  wrote:

> Fair enough; I read a quote a few days ago, but can't find it again to
> properly cite... It was in reference to If Plan 9 Is Truly Better, Why
> Linux? And it was to the effect of "The biggest risk to Great software is
> Good Enough software," and that may be true...
>
> But getting "Stuck" on 1960s technology isn't "Progress" either... And at
> what point should the world suck it up, and swallow the cost of upgrading
> For The Greater Good?
>
> I also believe in competition, natural selection, and survival of the
> fittest... 15 years ago, when I was first getting into Linux, I argued that
> a heterogeneous population of hardware and software will encourage the
> hurd-immunity of the whole  network... I argued that me, personally using
> Linux actually made the whole internet safer, as a particular threat is
> unlikely  to be effective against me,  AND the Windows Users, AND the Mac
> OS users, etc. The "Diversity" was a good thing. And I THINK the researcher
> in the original security article was making a similar point: By encouraging
> competition among similar but not identical implimentations,  some will be
> "Better" than others in certain ways, worse in others; Vulnerable to some
> attacks, immune to others... But to hide it all away in the kernel prevents
> competition... Interferes with the "Many Eyes" principle that Open Source
> argues in favor of.
>
> I guess I'm concerned that there isn't enough competition to keep the
> internet safe. I'm concerned that capitalism, and the acceptance of work
> flows that "Technically work, and are cheap enough to not want better" is
> the enemy at hand...
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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Tomas Kuchta]

I would google up Andrew Tanenbaum versus monolithic kernel and look back
at the history of this debate. It goes back to 90s - birth of Linux.

I am not going to judge it theoretically on a principle. Just observing the
real world as it currently is - microkernel security currently comes
primarily from the fact that it cannot do much and it is not used outside
SW research and niche such as "secure" IME (remember that last year).

The beauty of open source, in my opinion, is diversity and agiliy. So,
there is place for micro kernel OS.

I am not quite sure that minix is the future direction thought. It has not
been for the last 30+ years.

.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 10:30 AM Louis Kowolowski 
wrote:

> On Sep 13, 2018, at 12:11 PM, Tyrell Jentink  wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > I guess I'm concerned that there isn't enough competition to keep the
> > internet safe. I'm concerned that capitalism, and the acceptance of work
> > flows that "Technically work, and are cheap enough to not want better" is
> > the enemy at hand...
> > ...
>
> I'm a little unclear how capitalism is related here. If we didn't use it,
> what would we use that would somehow mandate that people use sufficiently
> diverse things to maintain a notion of safety?
>
> We have lots of browsers, but they all have to interoperate to be
> relevant. Enter web assembly, the next way to deliver malware to every
> browser.
>
> --
> Louis Kowolowskilou...@cryptomonkeys.org
> Cryptomonkeys:
> http://www.cryptomonkeys.com/
>
> Making life more interesting for people since 1977
>
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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Russell Senior]

Google "worse is better" for a famous paper on the general subject.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 12:51 Tomas Kuchta 
wrote:

> I would google up Andrew Tanenbaum versus monolithic kernel and look back
> at the history of this debate. It goes back to 90s - birth of Linux.
>
> I am not going to judge it theoretically on a principle. Just observing the
> real world as it currently is - microkernel security currently comes
> primarily from the fact that it cannot do much and it is not used outside
> SW research and niche such as "secure" IME (remember that last year).
>
> The beauty of open source, in my opinion, is diversity and agiliy. So,
> there is place for micro kernel OS.
>
> I am not quite sure that minix is the future direction thought. It has not
> been for the last 30+ years.
>
> .
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 10:30 AM Louis Kowolowski 
> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 13, 2018, at 12:11 PM, Tyrell Jentink  wrote:
> > >
> > > ...
> > > I guess I'm concerned that there isn't enough competition to keep the
> > > internet safe. I'm concerned that capitalism, and the acceptance of
> work
> > > flows that "Technically work, and are cheap enough to not want better"
> is
> > > the enemy at hand...
> > > ...
> >
> > I'm a little unclear how capitalism is related here. If we didn't use it,
> > what would we use that would somehow mandate that people use sufficiently
> > diverse things to maintain a notion of safety?
> >
> > We have lots of browsers, but they all have to interoperate to be
> > relevant. Enter web assembly, the next way to deliver malware to every
> > browser.
> >
> > --
> > Louis Kowolowskilou...@cryptomonkeys.org
> > Cryptomonkeys:
> > http://www.cryptomonkeys.com/
> >
> > Making life more interesting for people since 1977
> >
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Re: [PLUG] Replace the CPU

[John Jason Jordan]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 12:32:45 -0700
Tomas Kuchta  dijo:

>On mSATA - current generation of laptops/desktops use NVMe instead. It
>looks the same (except the notches), but it is much faster (2-3x) and
>it is not backwards compatible with mSATA.

My current laptop has a 512GB mSATA drive which contains / and ~/ in
separate partitions. I was hoping to get a new computer that I could
just stick it into, but apparently that is not in the cards. It is maybe
3/4 full, so a 1TB NVMe replacement drive would make sense. I know how
to create partitions on the new drive, and I can easily copy the
contents of ~/ to the new drive, but the tricky part that I do not know
how to do is to clone / to its partition on the new drive and make it
bootable. I am sure that it is doable, and probably easy, I've just
never done it before. But hold off for now on the instructions - I
haven't even committed to getting a new computer yet, and if you tell
me now I will have forgotten by the time I do.

And as for buying a new computer, my current thinking is to continue
with my current laptop for another year or so. I'm in no rush. But that
isn't going to stop me from shopping. 
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Re: [PLUG] What Comes After Unix?

[Mike C.]

>
> > I was recently reading an article that claimed Linux is insecure, because
> > of it's monolithic kernel codebase:
> >
> https://threatpost.com/researchers-blame-monolithic-linux-code-base-for-critical-vulnerabilities/136785/
>
> I read the article. The big takeaways for me are:

1. "They found that 96 percent of critical Linux compromises would no
longer be critical with a microkernel-based design, 40 percent would be
completely eliminated by an OS based on a verified microkernel and 29
percent would be gone even with an unverified microkernel."

2. "security researchers noted that embracing microkernels as a panacea
doesn’t take into account other challenges.'

“The usage of limited function OS and/or distributed component OS is fine,
but this introduces new risks and expands the attack surface that
complicates security monitoring and association of various moving parts
that become unmanageable for humans,” Joseph Kucic, chief security officer
at Cavirin, told Threatpost.

“While artificial intelligence/machine learning can aid in this security
validation process, I expect hackers will have the advantage for 12 to 24
months if the paradigm is changed for OSes.
3. "He also pointed out that new hacks are focusing on runtime and memory
exploits – and that these will see limited benefit from the proposed
changes."

4. "While one may reduce attack surface of a monolithic OS, one increases
complexity and security validation requirements for additional
micro-services.”

From which I draw the following conclusions.

1. Microkernel architecture by design is more secure than monolithic OSs
such as MS WIn, Linux, MAC OS.

2. Microkernel architecture has flaws, challenges  and isn't more secure
against all attack vectors such as runtine and memory exploits.

This comes down to the classic the "the evil you know is better than the
evil you don't".

The best thing about Linux is that it's not a one size fits all OS. If
security is of paramount concern for a user or user base there is a
plethora of ways to reduce the attach surface of the computing environment
and/or data.

As someone mentioned computers are about getting work done. This is what
most developers and users have been thinking about and doing since the
first computer.

IT security is still a relatively new thing on the computer time line and
in most cases it's still an afterthought. Microkernel architecture wasn't
created to be secure.

" Microkernels were meant as a response to changes in the computer world,
and to several challenges adapting existing "mono-kernels
" to these new systems. New
device drivers, protocol stacks, file systems and other low-level systems
were being developed all the time. This code was normally located in the
monolithic kernel, and thus required considerable work and careful code
management to work on. Microkernels were developed with the idea that all
of these services would be implemented as user-space programs, like any
other, allowing them to be worked on monolithically and started and stopped
like any other program. This would not only allow these services to be more
easily worked on, but also separated the kernel code to allow it to be
finely tuned without worrying about unintended side effects. Moreover, it
would allow entirely new operating systems to be "built up" on a common
core, aiding OS research."

It just so happens that overtime those ideas lead to a more secure OS
design. And now, 3rd generation microkernels are "characterised by a
security-oriented API with resource access controlled by capabilities
, virtualization
 as
a first-class concern, novel approaches to kernel resource management,[32]
 and
a design goal of suitability for formal analysis
, besides the usual goal of
high performance. Examples are Coyotos
,
seL4
,
Nova,[33] [34]

 Redox and
Fiasco.OC.[33] 
[35]


In the case of seL4, complete formal verification of the implementation has
been achieved,[31]

i.e.
a mathematical proof that the kernel's implementation is consistent with
its formal specification. This provides a guarantee that the properties
proved about the API actually hold for the real kernel, a d