Re: UPS recommendations

[Nicholas Leippe]

The first factor is load size--how much you plan to power with it, you have
to get a unit that is sufficient--thus the VA rating.

The next biggest factor most people consider is load time--which is just
running the math against the battery size and your equipment power
requirements. Bigger batteries cost more yet need replacing at the same
frequency.

There is also physical size and form factor:
- server-room appliance type--these look like a giant cabinet along the
walls of your colo. Leibert is one common brand.
- rack mount units, 2U on up (never seen a 1U though they probably exist),
often 5U
- tower units
- tower units with modular extra battery packs
- all-in-one power-cord units like little APCs that look like an enlarged
power strip

Any expensive unit will have hot-swappable batteries. Some smaller/cheaper
units do not, some may not even let you replace them at all, let alone hot.

There are basically two types:
- double-conversion/aka full-online
- single-conversion

Most office-targeted UPSes (eg APC, Tripp Lite, Belkin--if they make one),
will be single-conversion.
This means that wall power is transferred straight through to the load
until it fails, at which point there will be a (usually) negligible
switching time before it can turn on the inverter and continue powering the
load. The combination of capacitance in the unit and often capacitance in
your device's input power supplies usually suffices to ride out the
switching time--however some power supplies may glitch on their voltage
rails when this occurs. A few rare devices may get power cycled abruptly.

More expensive units are double-conversion. This means that they are always
producing power from their inverter such that your equipment will never
experience any switching time when the UPS loses wall power. This costs
more energy to do--notice that previously in the thread one unit mentioned
drew 100W minimum. More energy also means producing heat. IME, most
single-conversion units don't produce noticeable heat except for when the
charging circuit is active or it is actively powering the load (loss of
wall power).

Software connectivity may be a factor. Some have ethernet ports, others
serial ports, some nothing at all.

Probably lastly to consider is noise. A better design means it won't heat
as much and needs to run its fans less often.

Longevity and design quality are of course important. Too bad these factors
can't be read as numbers on the spec sheets... :)

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Re: UPS recommendations

[Nathan England]

This has been an interesting thread. It has also made me realize I might be 
rather naive when it comes to UPS systems. I have worked with APC power units 
in a data center and I have only used APC battery backups on my home systems. 
Where I live the power goes on and off quite often, but rarely for more than 30 
seconds. Because of this, I have never bothered looking into or configuring the 
auto-shutdown type features of a UPS for my home equipment.

But with so many comments here and other places that this thread caused me to 
look makes me wonder...

What features do you look for when you purchase a UPS?

I have a single Battery BackUPS  ES 550. I have my server, my workstation, one 
workstation monitor, and my router plugged into the UPS. It will allow these 
devices to run for about 10 minutes without power, so it is plenty sufficient 
for my needs, or so I think... 

But as Keith said, lightning season will be here soon! Don't all home office 
(read: cheap) UPS systems operate basically the same way? What should I be 
looking for?




On Tuesday, May 28, 2013 07:04:54 keith smith wrote:
> Thanks Nicholas!
> 
> I've been using Trip-Lite's Isobar for about 20 years.  I really like them
> and attribute the longevity of my computers to the Isobar.
> 
> I'm thinking this might do the job 
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tripp-Lite-AVR750U-Line-Interactive-UPS/4694704
> 
> 
> 
> Keith Smith
> 
> --- On Tue, 5/28/13, Nicholas Leippe  wrote:
> 
> From: Nicholas Leippe 
> Subject: Re: UPS recommendations
> To: "Provo Linux Users Group" 
> Date: Tuesday, May 28, 2013, 6:35 AM
> 
> Just perusing amazon, looks like your options for non-APC brands are Tripp
> Lite or CyberPower. Both have units that are big enough for your server
> priced under $100. I can't say as to their safety, quality, or software
> availability.
> 
> 
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Regards,

Nathan England

~
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Nathan England (nat...@nmecs.com)
Systems Administration / Web Application Development
Information Security Consulting
(480) 559.9681


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Re: UPS recommendations

[keith smith]

Thanks Nicholas!

I've been using Trip-Lite's Isobar for about 20 years.  I really like them and 
attribute the longevity of my computers to the Isobar.

I'm thinking this might do the job  
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tripp-Lite-AVR750U-Line-Interactive-UPS/4694704



Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/28/13, Nicholas Leippe  wrote:

From: Nicholas Leippe 
Subject: Re: UPS recommendations
To: "Provo Linux Users Group" 
Date: Tuesday, May 28, 2013, 6:35 AM

Just perusing amazon, looks like your options for non-APC brands are Tripp
Lite or CyberPower. Both have units that are big enough for your server
priced under $100. I can't say as to their safety, quality, or software
availability.


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Re: UPS recommendations

[Nicholas Leippe]

Just perusing amazon, looks like your options for non-APC brands are Tripp
Lite or CyberPower. Both have units that are big enough for your server
priced under $100. I can't say as to their safety, quality, or software
availability.


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Re: UPS recommendations

[keith smith]

I reviewed this thread and one of the main points is APC is not a good product. 
 The one unit that was suggested was very pricey.  

I am in the market for a UPS for a public facing headless LAMP server I run out 
of my home office.  It has a 300 watt power supply.

Basically what I am looking for is:

1) low price < $100
2) to power down or deal with lightening since that season is upon us real soon
3) software to power down system (CentOS)
4) must be safe since it is in my house and I have pets.  No fires, no acid, 
etc.

Thank you for your feedback and guidance. 



Keith Smith

--- On Mon, 5/13/13, Chris  wrote:

From: Chris 
Subject: Re: UPS recommendations
To: "Provo Linux Users Group" 
Date: Monday, May 13, 2013, 7:51 PM

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Nicholas Leippe  wrote:

> Where they are always online:
> 1) do they produce a lot of heat?
>
2) noise?
>

As I can't vouch for the performance of contemporary online UPS models, the
following observations are necessarily limited to my experience with the
ancient Prestige units.

I've never noticed any warmth from them, but they do draw power
continuously above and beyond that consumed by the output load.  With no
load, they dissipate a bit under 100 watts (as measured by a
kill-a-watt-like device), which is ~10% of their rated output.  That's
substantially more idle/internal power consumption than a non-online UPS
sitting in standby mode, but it's a price I've been willing to pay for the
non-switching sine-wave output.  I wouldn't be too surprised if more modern
online models were a bit more efficient given that they're built with
technology that is ~15 years newer.

My Prestige units have a small (100 mm-ish) variable-speed internal fan
that runs continuously at a low speed--which is probably why they don't get
noticeably warm when dissipating ~100 watts of power.  I don't find the fan
noise objectionable; others might. Again, more modern online models might
be quite different. See, for example, the 9130 tech-specs
page<http://powerware.eaton.com/PW9130L1500T-XL.aspx?CX=3>
.

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Re: UPS recommendations

[Daniel Fussell]

On 05/12/2013 01:11 PM, Nicholas Leippe wrote:
> I would still use an APC in a data center environment--mounted in metal
> racks above fire-proof floors I wouldn't worry about them venting gas or
> getting hot when they fail. But not in my home on my wood floor or in my
> carpeted office.
>
I don't trust them even in that situation.  I have one that's at least 
30kVA in one of my server rooms.  It was off-line for some time due to 
problems with it's fan controllers, as well as the normal loss of some 
of the batteries.  It was off-line when I first started working here, 
but I get the impression is went out shortly before or after the 
warranty expired.  Eventually it was repaired (on our dime I think), but 
I don't like to use it.  In a power event, if they ever get down to a 
low threshold (like 10% remaining) they shutdown, and require a service 
technician to bring them back up.

I have 4 other Mitsubishi UPSs ranging from 30kVA to 100kVA, and they 
can drain all the way to zero, shutoff, and I can bring them back up 
myself without having to arrange for a service call.  The only problem 
I've ever had was with their original netcom monitors.  After about ten 
years of service a few of the monitors forgot their MAC and start using 
an all zero MAC address.  There was no documented way to reset the MAC, 
nor could I figure it out from the ethernet chip's whitepapers.  
Eventually I gave up and replaced the bad ones with the newer netcom 2 
monitors, and haven't had any trouble since.

I've never had a small desktop Mitsubishi UPS.  I know of another 
systems group that used them for a while but decided to switch to APC 
after a lot of their netcom monitors did the same thing as mine.  That 
was a few years ago, so I don't know if they ever regretted the decision.

Myself, I had a tripplite at home for about three years, and it was a 
good little box.  I don't think the battery was replaceable though.



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Re: UPS recommendations

[Chris]

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Nicholas Leippe  wrote:

> Where they are always online:
> 1) do they produce a lot of heat?
>
2) noise?
>

As I can't vouch for the performance of contemporary online UPS models, the
following observations are necessarily limited to my experience with the
ancient Prestige units.

I've never noticed any warmth from them, but they do draw power
continuously above and beyond that consumed by the output load.  With no
load, they dissipate a bit under 100 watts (as measured by a
kill-a-watt-like device), which is ~10% of their rated output.  That's
substantially more idle/internal power consumption than a non-online UPS
sitting in standby mode, but it's a price I've been willing to pay for the
non-switching sine-wave output.  I wouldn't be too surprised if more modern
online models were a bit more efficient given that they're built with
technology that is ~15 years newer.

My Prestige units have a small (100 mm-ish) variable-speed internal fan
that runs continuously at a low speed--which is probably why they don't get
noticeably warm when dissipating ~100 watts of power.  I don't find the fan
noise objectionable; others might. Again, more modern online models might
be quite different. See, for example, the 9130 tech-specs
page
.

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Re: UPS recommendations

[Joel Finlinson]

I've got a Cyberpower 1500 that been dependable for a couple of years ( worked 
through two sets of batteries and still going ).  I've also used lots of APC 
units that I don't like and don't recommend either

- jf

On May 12, 2013, at 12:54, Charles Curley  
wrote:

> On Sun, 12 May 2013 11:37:56 -0600
> Chris  wrote:
> 
>> I've owned several different UPS brands over the years and APC was the
>> worst by far.  My two APC units both failed within two years of
>> purchase.
> 
> I've owned two APC UPSs over the last 20 years. My current one is a
> Back-UPS LS 700. I forget when I bought it, but its battery date is
> 2008-09-28, and this is not its first battery. (Hmmm, I should force a
> self-test soon)
> 
> When considering a UPS, also consider support software for your OS. I
> stick with APC because of apcupsd, which is a nice rock solid piece of
> software. http://www.apcupsd.com/ It lets me run several machines off
> the same UPS, and will gracefully shut down each one. The documentation
> is good. It is available in most Linux distribution repos.
> 
> -- 
> 
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Re: UPS recommendations

[Nicholas Leippe]

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm done with APC. After two units charging
circuits failed catastrophically (one destroyed >$200 of brand new
batteries), and both could have lit my house on fire I no longer trust APC.
Period. They continued to attempt charging full batteries--which got
bloated, started venting, and got nearly melting hot.

I haven't used UPS software on my desktop in ages, but I imagine nut can
do it--and if not I can always write my own if the need arose. My power
outages are usually sub-minute brown-outs. Occasionally I've had longer,
but with a journalled fs it isn't too big a deal for just a desktop to go
down if it runs out. Directv DVRs don't handle power outages very well
though, I must say. I'm not sure what fs they use, but I've had it lose
some, and all recordings, and then a few resets later have some or all of
them magically reappear. Not to mention the excruciatingly slow boot times
(5-10 *minutes*--*windows* boots faster--ouch!). Annoyingly, they don't
have an actual off button so you can safely power them down to move them.
Design fail.

I would still use an APC in a data center environment--mounted in metal
racks above fire-proof floors I wouldn't worry about them venting gas or
getting hot when they fail. But not in my home on my wood floor or in my
carpeted office.

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Re: UPS recommendations

[Charles Curley]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 11:37:56 -0600
Chris  wrote:

> I've owned several different UPS brands over the years and APC was the
> worst by far.  My two APC units both failed within two years of
> purchase.

I've owned two APC UPSs over the last 20 years. My current one is a
Back-UPS LS 700. I forget when I bought it, but its battery date is
2008-09-28, and this is not its first battery. (Hmmm, I should force a
self-test soon)

When considering a UPS, also consider support software for your OS. I
stick with APC because of apcupsd, which is a nice rock solid piece of
software. http://www.apcupsd.com/ It lets me run several machines off
the same UPS, and will gracefully shut down each one. The documentation
is good. It is available in most Linux distribution repos.

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Re: UPS recommendations

[Nicholas Leippe]

Where they are always online:
1) do they produce a lot of heat?
2) noise?

My primary goal is for my desktop in my office. I really don't want to up
the heat or db levels much if it can be avoided. For my entertainment
center, heat is okay, but noise would be a problem.

I will check into these, thanks.
Quite pricey new, maybe I can pick one up used/off lease for a reasonable
amount.

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Re: UPS recommendations

[Chris]

I've owned several different UPS brands over the years and APC was the
worst by far.  My two APC units both failed within two years of purchase.

The best UPS units that I've owned have been a pair of Exide Powerware Prestige
EXT 
(1500VA)units
purchased in the mid- to late-nineties.  Both are still in service,
which, now that I think of it, is remarkable.  I replace the batteries
every few years and they've been so reliable that I guess I've come to
expect them to last forever.  They're not cheap, but you seem to get what
you pay for.  They are double-conversion (aka "full online") UPS units that
have zero transfer time.  Input power charges the batteries and the
sine-wave output circuit is powered continuously from the battery bus.

In the many years since I bought these Prestige units, the Powerware UPS
business apparently ended up being owned by
Eaton.
 As best as I can tell, the
9130
is
the modern equivalent of the old Prestige "online" model.  The 9130 offers
the same basic capabilities as the old Prestige models: full online
operation with options for additional external battery cabinets.  If my
Prestige units ever fail, they'll be replaced with 9130s--or whatever is
current at that time.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Shane Hathaway]

On 08/27/2010 06:00 AM, Charles Curley wrote:
>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10209580-92.html
>
> Did you notice the publication date on that?

Yes, but it still seems like a good idea.  Switching power supplies 
already have most of the circuitry you would need to manage a battery.

Shane

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Michael Torrie]

On 08/27/2010 01:56 AM, Shane Hathaway wrote:
> So, for a time, the UPS generates power at a slightly incorrect 
> frequency in order to adjust the phase?  That's a cool hack.

That's my understanding.  The generator is generating a standard 60 Hz
sine wave on each of the three phases.  The problem is that the
generator's phase is never going to be the same as the line's.  So the
UPS slowly (well, quickly actually) shifts the phase by slightly
altering the frequency until it matches the generator's.  Then when the
line power comes back, it has to shift to match the line's phase.

> I prefer the idea of putting batteries in the computer, though.  It 
> works for laptops, why not for servers?

Line UPS works for *everything*, which is why it's can be appealing for
data centers.  Covers the servers, switches, monitors, heating and
cooling, lights, etc.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Charles Curley]

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:56:57 -0600
Shane Hathaway  wrote:

> On 08/26/2010 09:40 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> > Generators bring some interesting things to the mix.  As you say you
> > can't have a generator without a UPS.  But the UPS has to be pretty
> > smart when switching back and forth between line, battery, and
> > generator.  Not only does the UPS have to carry the load while the
> > generator gets up to speed, it also has to match phase with the
> > generator.  This doesn't take very long, but you have to have a
> > pretty expensive UPS to do this.  Then when line power returns, the
> > UPS has to carry the load again while it adjusts the phase to match
> > the line phase. We have a nice big, in-line UPS at work that does
> > all this.  Works well if you have the resources.
> 
> So, for a time, the UPS generates power at a slightly incorrect 
> frequency in order to adjust the phase?  That's a cool hack.

Yup. I worked briefly for a company that takes generators, batteries,
etc., builds them into its own UPSs, and then sticks them into back
alleys for cable companies, those green boxes on concrete pedestals
that most people just ignore.

The problem is when power returns. The battery system or the generator
is cranking out AC power, but it may be out of phase with with the
mains. Also, power may not be reliable for some seconds after it
returns, so you have to wait for several seconds between the return of
stable power and when you finally let that power on to the circuits you
are providing power to. So you adjust your phasing from 60 hertz to a
bit above or below that, for long enough to get the two in synch. Only
then do you let power from the mains go to the load.

Another, related, issue is the definition of stable power. Mains power
is normally very noisy; that is why we have surge protectors. After a
power failure it is extremely noisy. You don't want to allow the load
to see that power until it has settled down.

Similarly for the period after a power failure, when you shift from
battery power to alternator.


> 
> I prefer the idea of putting batteries in the computer, though.  It 
> works for laptops, why not for servers?

Laptops are expected to operate on their own, out next to the swimming
pool, off the mains, for hours. Servers are not. Different mission.

Also, having hundreds or even thousands of batteries in a data center to
replace instead of only a few is a maintenance nightmare; no thanks!
And add in the recycling issues. Also now you have hundreds or thousands
of charging circuits, power conditioners, etc., for the batteries, and
that is more expensive that a few large charging circuits, etc.

> 
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10209580-92.html

Did you notice the publication date on that?


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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Shane Hathaway]

On 08/26/2010 09:40 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> Generators bring some interesting things to the mix.  As you say you
> can't have a generator without a UPS.  But the UPS has to be pretty
> smart when switching back and forth between line, battery, and
> generator.  Not only does the UPS have to carry the load while the
> generator gets up to speed, it also has to match phase with the
> generator.  This doesn't take very long, but you have to have a pretty
> expensive UPS to do this.  Then when line power returns, the UPS has to
> carry the load again while it adjusts the phase to match the line phase.
>   We have a nice big, in-line UPS at work that does all this.  Works well
> if you have the resources.

So, for a time, the UPS generates power at a slightly incorrect 
frequency in order to adjust the phase?  That's a cool hack.

I prefer the idea of putting batteries in the computer, though.  It 
works for laptops, why not for servers?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10209580-92.html

Shane

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Michael Torrie]

On 08/26/2010 01:24 PM, Corey Edwards wrote:
> A generator won't solve your problem without a UPS. It takes up to a
> couple minutes for the generator to kick on and switch over. During that
> time you need a UPS to carry the load. There's really just no way around
> it. Preventative maintenance is your best bet.

Generators bring some interesting things to the mix.  As you say you
can't have a generator without a UPS.  But the UPS has to be pretty
smart when switching back and forth between line, battery, and
generator.  Not only does the UPS have to carry the load while the
generator gets up to speed, it also has to match phase with the
generator.  This doesn't take very long, but you have to have a pretty
expensive UPS to do this.  Then when line power returns, the UPS has to
carry the load again while it adjusts the phase to match the line phase.
 We have a nice big, in-line UPS at work that does all this.  Works well
if you have the resources.

The reason that some cheap (and very expensive) UPS's kill the load when
the battery dies is that to avoid all this phase-matching nonsense, some
of them just run the power through the batteries at all time.  In other
words you're running AC->DC->Battery->Inverter->Load.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:48:18 -0600
Andrew McNabb  wrote:

> As others have said, dealing with batteries is a pain, and they fail
> frequently.  I've also been frustrated to find that when a battery
> fails, sometimes this causes the UPS to shut down power to the
> connected equipment.

I have not had any APC UPS shut down when its batteries failed.

As for battery failure, yes, it happens. Monitoring the battery (with
the aid of good software such as apcupsd) will at least give you a
warning. I run a self test from time to time, more often as the
batteries age.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Andrew McNabb]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 01:11:22PM -0600, Tyler Harmor wrote:
> Having had several UPS' fail on me over the years, I can agree with that
> statement at it's core.  The problem with it however, is if not UPS (battery
> tech), then what?  Unfortunately, there aren't many viable options available
> out there today (short of having a diesel generating on standby next to your
> garage).

Thanks for pointing out that I was being unclear.  If the battery fails
and there's a black-out, then the UPS can't do anything but fail.
However, in the case I was referring to earlier, the UPS failed when
there was still AC power available.  The stupid thing turned off because
the battery was having a problem, even though it didn't actually need to
use the battery at that time.  I've seen this several times with APC
UPSes.  Hopefully they've fixed this design problem in newer models.

-- 
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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Tyler Harmor]

Yes, sorry.  I was being more sarcastic then anything with that last
comment.

ty|er.

On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Corey Edwards  wrote:

> On 08/26/2010 01:11 PM, Tyler Harmor wrote:
> > Having had several UPS' fail on me over the years, I can agree with that
> > statement at it's core.  The problem with it however, is if not UPS
> (battery
> > tech), then what?  Unfortunately, there aren't many viable options
> available
> > out there today (short of having a diesel generating on standby next to
> your
> > garage).
>
> A generator won't solve your problem without a UPS. It takes up to a
> couple minutes for the generator to kick on and switch over. During that
> time you need a UPS to carry the load. There's really just no way around
> it. Preventative maintenance is your best bet.
>
> Corey
>
>
>
>
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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Corey Edwards]

On 08/26/2010 01:11 PM, Tyler Harmor wrote:
> Having had several UPS' fail on me over the years, I can agree with that
> statement at it's core.  The problem with it however, is if not UPS (battery
> tech), then what?  Unfortunately, there aren't many viable options available
> out there today (short of having a diesel generating on standby next to your
> garage).

A generator won't solve your problem without a UPS. It takes up to a
couple minutes for the generator to kick on and switch over. During that
time you need a UPS to carry the load. There's really just no way around
it. Preventative maintenance is your best bet.

Corey




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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Tyler Harmor]

Having had several UPS' fail on me over the years, I can agree with that
statement at it's core.  The problem with it however, is if not UPS (battery
tech), then what?  Unfortunately, there aren't many viable options available
out there today (short of having a diesel generating on standby next to your
garage).

ty|er.

In closing, Provo Power sucks!  That is all.

On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Andrew McNabb  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:21:13AM -0600, Bryan Thomas wrote:
> > out of curiosity, why do you say that they all suck?  what would make
> > them better?
>
> As others have said, dealing with batteries is a pain, and they fail
> frequently.  I've also been frustrated to find that when a battery
> fails, sometimes this causes the UPS to shut down power to the connected
> equipment.  If I wanted the equipment to be powered down randomly, I
> wouldn't have attached it to a UPS in the first place!
>
> --
> Andrew McNabb
> http://www.mcnabbs.org/andrew/
> PGP Fingerprint: 8A17 B57C 6879 1863 DE55  8012 AB4D 6098 8826 6868
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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Andrew McNabb]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:21:13AM -0600, Bryan Thomas wrote:
> out of curiosity, why do you say that they all suck?  what would make 
> them better?

As others have said, dealing with batteries is a pain, and they fail
frequently.  I've also been frustrated to find that when a battery
fails, sometimes this causes the UPS to shut down power to the connected
equipment.  If I wanted the equipment to be powered down randomly, I
wouldn't have attached it to a UPS in the first place!

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Jonathan Duncan]

On 12 Aug 2010, at 17:11, Levi Pearson wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Aaron Toponce  
> wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 04:00:57PM -0600, Levi Pearson wrote:
>>> As far as solar goes, you might also want to consider solar water
>>> heating, which could also reduce your gas bill.  It doesn't involve
>>> expensive photovoltaic cells, so it could be cheaper to implement.
>> 
>> Meh. I'm coverted to tankless water heaters.
> 
> People often use solar water heating as a pre-heater for tankless
> heaters.  You probably want the tankless on-demand heater in any case,
> as it can compensate for low solar days.
> 

Check this out:

http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/08/12/improving-solar-efficiency-with-a-sticker/


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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Levi Pearson]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Aaron Toponce  wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 04:00:57PM -0600, Levi Pearson wrote:
>> As far as solar goes, you might also want to consider solar water
>> heating, which could also reduce your gas bill.  It doesn't involve
>> expensive photovoltaic cells, so it could be cheaper to implement.
>
> Meh. I'm coverted to tankless water heaters.

People often use solar water heating as a pre-heater for tankless
heaters.  You probably want the tankless on-demand heater in any case,
as it can compensate for low solar days.

--Levi

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Joel Finlinson]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Jonathan Duncan <
jonat...@bluesunhosting.com> wrote:

> 
> I have also wanted to gain some independence from "the grid" for many years
> now.  The cost and complexity of the project has always hindered me.  If
> someone has not already done so, it could become a good business to create a
> kit for people that allows them to set these things up themselves and have
> the option to come install it for those who do not even want to use a kit.
>  A kit for wind, solar, fuelcell, etc, or a hybrid of multiple power sources
> and instructions on how to do it all safely and properly could be a good
> business model, depending on how many people want to do such a thing.
>  However, depending on the maintenance required of home users on such
> systems may balance out the long term cost savings and negate the viability
> of the project altogether.
>
>
here's a couple of recent articles about some folks that are doing solar
panels.

http://news.hjnews.com/news/local_news/article_638d73ba-979f-11df-99f0-001cc4c03286.html

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=649&sid=7815825

Joel

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Aaron Toponce]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 04:00:57PM -0600, Levi Pearson wrote:
> As far as solar goes, you might also want to consider solar water
> heating, which could also reduce your gas bill.  It doesn't involve
> expensive photovoltaic cells, so it could be cheaper to implement.

Meh. I'm coverted to tankless water heaters.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Jonathan Duncan]

On 12 Aug 2010, at 16:00, Levi Pearson wrote:

> There's more to the system than just the panels, of course.  You'll
> need to factor in the correct batteries for your needs (different
> kinds of batteries have different points at which further discharge
> starts to cause damage, so you have to factor this into capacity
> calculations), a charge controller to make sure that the batteries are
> charged and discharged properly, a properly-sized full sine wave
> inverter to run your AC appliances, and whatever other gadgets that
> are necessary to integrate your system with the grid and gas
> generator.  Presumably you don't want to go shuffling plugs at your
> breaker panel whenever you want to switch power sources, and hooking
> things up the wrong way can backfeed power where it shouldn't go and
> cause serious problems.  You could blow up your own equipment or
> electrocute a utility worker if you hooked things up wrong.  The above
> equipment is generally not cheap.  :)
> 
> As far as solar goes, you might also want to consider solar water
> heating, which could also reduce your gas bill.  It doesn't involve
> expensive photovoltaic cells, so it could be cheaper to implement.
> 

I have also wanted to gain some independence from "the grid" for many years 
now.  The cost and complexity of the project has always hindered me.  If 
someone has not already done so, it could become a good business to create a 
kit for people that allows them to set these things up themselves and have the 
option to come install it for those who do not even want to use a kit.  A kit 
for wind, solar, fuelcell, etc, or a hybrid of multiple power sources and 
instructions on how to do it all safely and properly could be a good business 
model, depending on how many people want to do such a thing.  However, 
depending on the maintenance required of home users on such systems may balance 
out the long term cost savings and negate the viability of the project 
altogether.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Levi Pearson]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Aaron Toponce  wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:38:18AM -0600, Michael Torrie wrote:
>>
>> Regular UPS units use normal, sealed leadacid batteries.  Anyway, going
>> solar is a neat idea.  Let us know how it works out and how the
>> economics fly.  Are you planning, then, an off-grid system?
>
> I thought they were "gel cells", but looking at Wikipedia, I guess
> they're essentially the same, except the cell chemical is different, and
> the lack of needing to add water. I don't know about the power draw
> differences between the two, though.

There's a wide variety of lead acid batteries.  There are two basic
categories, starting and deep cycle.  There's also a sort of hybrid
between them.  Starting batteries are optimized for delivering high
current for short periods of time, while deep cycle are optimized for
delivering lower amounts of current for longer periods of time.
Starting batteries are not very good for reserve power applications,
since they can't be discharged very far before they start to be
damaged.  If you put a bunch of car starting batteries in your system,
you'll be replacing them before too long, especially if they were used
to begin with.

There are also different types of electrolyte.  Auto batteries are
typically an open wet cell battery, which has serviceable electrolyte
and vents hydrogen gas when it changes.  There are also deep cycle
batteries of this variety, and they're relatively inexpensive, but you
have to be careful with maintenance and storage to ensure the gas
doesn't corrode the terminals and that there's enough air circulation
to vent the hydrogen so it doesn't build up to dangerous levels.
There are also sealed varieties, such as gel cells and AGM.  These
don't typically vent, they don't have serviceable electrolyte, and
they don't spill so they can be installed in different orientations.
Gel cells can be ruined by charging them with too high of a voltage,
but AGM don't typically have that problem.  AGM are the most common
type of sealed battery now, I believe.  I've got one as a starter
battery in the trunk of my Miata, and I've got a small deep-cycle one
as the house battery in my Vanagon Camper.

>
> It'll be hybrid. Eventually, I would like to go 100% off-grid, but that
> might be a bit. Looking at 220W panels for roughly $500 makes it very
> attractable for my wife and I.
>
>
> Not only solar, but I've looked at a gas generator as well. Gas is
> cheap, and the generators are inexpensive, so that could work in an
> emergency for a day or two worth of power (as long as I can keep feeding
> it gas).

There's more to the system than just the panels, of course.  You'll
need to factor in the correct batteries for your needs (different
kinds of batteries have different points at which further discharge
starts to cause damage, so you have to factor this into capacity
calculations), a charge controller to make sure that the batteries are
charged and discharged properly, a properly-sized full sine wave
inverter to run your AC appliances, and whatever other gadgets that
are necessary to integrate your system with the grid and gas
generator.  Presumably you don't want to go shuffling plugs at your
breaker panel whenever you want to switch power sources, and hooking
things up the wrong way can backfeed power where it shouldn't go and
cause serious problems.  You could blow up your own equipment or
electrocute a utility worker if you hooked things up wrong.  The above
equipment is generally not cheap.  :)

As far as solar goes, you might also want to consider solar water
heating, which could also reduce your gas bill.  It doesn't involve
expensive photovoltaic cells, so it could be cheaper to implement.

--Levi

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Steven Alligood]

On 08/12/2010 11:25 AM, Aaron Toponce wrote:


  And the tax credit
makes it worth the initial cost.

   


Initial, sure, but what about in two to three years when all the 
batteries start needing replacement?




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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Aaron Toponce]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:38:18AM -0600, Michael Torrie wrote:
> 
> Regular UPS units use normal, sealed leadacid batteries.  Anyway, going
> solar is a neat idea.  Let us know how it works out and how the
> economics fly.  Are you planning, then, an off-grid system?

I thought they were "gel cells", but looking at Wikipedia, I guess
they're essentially the same, except the cell chemical is different, and
the lack of needing to add water. I don't know about the power draw
differences between the two, though.

It'll be hybrid. Eventually, I would like to go 100% off-grid, but that
might be a bit. Looking at 220W panels for roughly $500 makes it very
attractable for my wife and I.

Not only solar, but I've looked at a gas generator as well. Gas is
cheap, and the generators are inexpensive, so that could work in an
emergency for a day or two worth of power (as long as I can keep feeding
it gas).

I'm in contact with someone else in Ogden who is meeting 1/4 of his
power needs with only 6 175W panels. He's planning on getting 3
additional panels. He's mentioned some unique wiring schemes with the
batteries (parallel, vs serial, vs hybrid wiring). And the tax credit
makes it worth the initial cost.

> In some cases solar power (or even wind) is really complicated.  You can
> arrange to sell electricity back to the grid, and then draw from the
> grid during no sunshine periods, making the grid act as a sort of
> battery for you.  But in most states the politics are such that while
> you can make your net electricity rate 0, but you have to still pay the
> line fees.  So being completely neutral with the electrical company is
> quite difficult.

I don't know anything about selling the power back. For the time being,
I'm just concerned about minimizing my power bill. I'm sure there's all
sorts of politics involved, good and bad. I guess time will tell. But I
would imagine just paying for the line feed would be cheaper than my
monthly bill. Maybe not. I'll look into it.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:38:18 -0600
Michael Torrie  wrote:

> In some cases solar power (or even wind) is really complicated.  You
> can arrange to sell electricity back to the grid, and then draw from
> the grid during no sunshine periods, making the grid act as a sort of
> battery for you.  But in most states the politics are such that while
> you can make your net electricity rate 0, but you have to still pay
> the line fees.  So being completely neutral with the electrical
> company is quite difficult.

Another gotcha is that when they sell you power, you pay retail. But
they buy power from you at wholesale, often considerably less. So
financial breakeven (as opposed to power breakeven) is considerably
more expensive.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Michael Torrie]

On 08/12/2010 07:46 AM, Aaron Toponce wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 07:26:54AM -0600, Michael Torrie wrote:
>> Won't you need a bank of batteries anyway to hold the electricity
>> generated by the solar panels?  IE you're going to be dealing with even
>> more batteries now.
> 
> Yes. I'm looking at SLA (sealed lead acid) batteries for that. Due to
> the ammount of current that will be drawn, I've heard from various
> sources that these are the most reliable. So, maybe I'll start at a car
> junkyard, and see what I can find there. :)

Regular UPS units use normal, sealed leadacid batteries.  Anyway, going
solar is a neat idea.  Let us know how it works out and how the
economics fly.  Are you planning, then, an off-grid system?

In some cases solar power (or even wind) is really complicated.  You can
arrange to sell electricity back to the grid, and then draw from the
grid during no sunshine periods, making the grid act as a sort of
battery for you.  But in most states the politics are such that while
you can make your net electricity rate 0, but you have to still pay the
line fees.  So being completely neutral with the electrical company is
quite difficult.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Steven Alligood]

On 08/12/2010 12:50 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:

On 08/12/2010 12:21 AM, Bryan Thomas wrote:
   

out of curiosity, why do you say that they all suck?  what would make
them better?
 

If you never had to worry about batteries, charging circuits, inverter
circuits, relays, etc.

In the few APC units I manage, we end up replacing failed batteries
every two years, on average.  everything else on the APC units, even the
older ones, seems to work fine, though.

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Even (especially?) professional level UPS' (350 KVA, multiple cabinets 
of batteries, etc) have to have the batteries changed out every 2-3 
years, as any longer than that and your failure rate is way to high to 
depend on.  It is the nature of batteries.


We usually swap out a third of the cabinets each year, so they are all 
on a three year rotation with only a third at any time being 2-3 years old.


Having said that, I tend to ignore my home UPS' until they fail during a 
power outage, then go buy another battery.


-Steve



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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Aaron Toponce]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 07:26:54AM -0600, Michael Torrie wrote:
> Won't you need a bank of batteries anyway to hold the electricity
> generated by the solar panels?  IE you're going to be dealing with even
> more batteries now.

Yes. I'm looking at SLA (sealed lead acid) batteries for that. Due to
the ammount of current that will be drawn, I've heard from various
sources that these are the most reliable. So, maybe I'll start at a car
junkyard, and see what I can find there. :)

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. . O   . O O   O . O   . O O   . . O
O O O   . O .   . O O   O O .   O O O


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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Michael Torrie]

On 08/12/2010 06:03 AM, Aaron Toponce wrote:
> I think I'm through with battery backups though. I'm looking at getting
> some solar panels for my roof, and using an old shed for the power
> storage, including a gas generator for emergencies. 

Won't you need a bank of batteries anyway to hold the electricity
generated by the solar panels?  IE you're going to be dealing with even
more batteries now.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Aaron Toponce]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:21:13AM -0600, Bryan Thomas wrote:
> out of curiosity, why do you say that they all suck?  what would make 
> them better?

Every UPS I've personally owned, the batteries were crap, or the units
themselves. Either the batteries only last a year or two, or they can't
communicate with the hardware they're plugged into, or they short out. I
have never really owned a good, solid, reliable battery backup.

With that said, I've had less problems with APC. Further, the batteries
are replaceable, which means I can get a replacement at
http://batteriesplus.com for a reasonable price.

I think I'm through with battery backups though. I'm looking at getting
some solar panels for my roof, and using an old shed for the power
storage, including a gas generator for emergencies. Not only do I get
the benefit of providing my own power for my house, I'll have something
in the case of a power outage that will give me longer uptimes on my
hardware than any consumer battery backup will. And I'll get a tax
rebate. :)

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Michael Torrie]

On 08/12/2010 12:21 AM, Bryan Thomas wrote:
> out of curiosity, why do you say that they all suck?  what would make 
> them better?

If you never had to worry about batteries, charging circuits, inverter
circuits, relays, etc.

In the few APC units I manage, we end up replacing failed batteries
every two years, on average.  everything else on the APC units, even the
older ones, seems to work fine, though.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Bryan Thomas]

out of curiosity, why do you say that they all suck?  what would make 
them better?

On 8/11/2010 9:57 PM, Aaron Toponce wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 08:33:12PM -0600, Stuart Jansen wrote:
>
>> What's the best UPS for power hungry home server? Why?
>>  
> APC. Because all battery backup solutions suck. APC just sucks less.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:57:47 -0600
Aaron Toponce  wrote:

> Because all battery backup solutions suck. APC just sucks less.

Now, that's a dog of a recommendation.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Aaron Toponce]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 08:33:12PM -0600, Stuart Jansen wrote:
> What's the best UPS for power hungry home server? Why?

APC. Because all battery backup solutions suck. APC just sucks less.

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Tod Hansmann]

On 8/11/2010 9:34 PM, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:33:12 -0600
> Stuart Jansen  wrote:
>
>
>> What's the best UPS for power hungry home server? Why?
>>
>>  
> I recommend an APC UPS. I'm very pleased with apcupsd,
> http://www.apcupsd.com/ It lets you hang multiple machines off one UPS,
> and will communicate between them, so they can all shut down gracefully
> if need be. It has a set of CGI scripts so you can inspect your UPS
> from any web browser you've given permissions to access the web server.
>
> I have a Back-UPS LS 700.
>
>
I second this recommendation and add CyberPower to the list.  We run our 
storage server (13 drives, fairly beefy) on a CyberPower CP1500AVRLCD, 
though at work we mixed some APC and Cyberpower stuff.  I have had some 
bad eggs with Eaton and TrippLite, though the latter usually makes some 
good products.

-Tod Hansmann

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Re: UPS Recommendations

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:33:12 -0600
Stuart Jansen  wrote:

> What's the best UPS for power hungry home server? Why?
> 

I recommend an APC UPS. I'm very pleased with apcupsd,
http://www.apcupsd.com/ It lets you hang multiple machines off one UPS,
and will communicate between them, so they can all shut down gracefully
if need be. It has a set of CGI scripts so you can inspect your UPS
from any web browser you've given permissions to access the web server.

I have a Back-UPS LS 700.

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