Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
You know, I'm glad this came up because as we speak I'm taping some of the Pine Valley Cosmonauts LP. What strikes me is that the songs which fail do so because they spotlight vocalists who are weak singers. Or, maybe it's that they are trying to adopt the Wills arrangements too strictly, which were able to feature a singer as fitted for those arrangements as Tommy Duncan was. This is probably why Merle and Willie and George Strait can pull off Western Swing. It's not that their bands aren't all respectively brilliant, it's just that each of their voices is distinctively complementary. As Willie might say, they're aging with time like yesterday's wine. I hope some of these folks on the PVC do stick with the swing, maybe they'll have a great album before long. Or maybe someone should convince Dwight Yoakam to sing with the band. you are so right about the pine valley cd which i have tried to like but finally gave up on for that exact reasonmusically i like lots of and vocally some of but it just winds up a pale comparison to some really good weatern swingi am far from a purist on this but some folks just don't have the voice (or should i say phrasing) to pull off these songsoh well, i guess bob wills is still the king
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
This covers thread raised a question for me -- what's it called when an artist -- I'm thinking of Dave Alvin, specifically -- "covers" a tune that he wrote for a band that he played in, but didn't sing, and covers it in a wildly different (and better, in Alvin's case) fashion? Border Radio, Romeo's whatever, a few others. I'll try to think of some other artists who did this sort of thing. -- Terry Smith ps so when's mandy barnett's new one coming out?
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
At 4:39 PM -0400 4/4/99, Amy Haugesag wrote: Well, referencing Peggy Lee's "Fever" isn't going to win any points with me, as I don't love either the song or her toneless version of it. If this loses me major kitsch-cred points, that's fine with me. Well thanks, I guess, for pointing out to me that I'm just respondingly ironically to the faked sensations of artistic rubbish. How ever could I have thought I sincerely liked the song on its own merits? g But I used the word "rehash" advisedly. I think it's possible and even fairly common to do a note-for-note rendition of someone else's song and *still* bring something of oneself--usually having to do with the distinctive voice that Ross mentions--to it. A rehash, on the other hand, is nothing more than a carbon copy of a song, one that doesn't add any distinctiveness of voice or anything else. A talented artist can sing a note-for-note rendition of a song they didn't write and still make it their own, by virtue of having a) a distinctive voice and b) emotional honesty, and specifically the ability to give the listener a sense that the song resonates emotionally for the singer as it did for the writer or original performer. I certainly agree with all of that, but I don't think that's the same thing as saying "all good covers" should be "reinterpretations rather than rehashes". Unless you are saying that a note-for-note remake is a reinterpretation when you like it and a rehash when you don't like it. A note-for-note remake, I'd say, is almost always giving the song the same interpretation as the original, whether it works or not. Ross Whitwam[EMAIL PROTECTED] Molecular Pharmacology Therapeutics Program Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, NYC
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
This covers thread raised a question for me -- what's it called when an artist -- I'm thinking of Dave Alvin, specifically -- "covers" a tune that he wrote for a band that he played in, but didn't sing, and covers it in a wildly different (and better, in Alvin's case) fashion? Border Radio, Romeo's whatever, a few others. I'll try to think of some other artists who did this sort of thing. -- Terry Smith How about when Bob Dylan covers Buddy Holly's "Not Fade Away," but the arrangement of the song adheres pretty closely to the Dead's version? Is there a name for that? Isn't it Harmolodic Bifurcation? OR maybe I'm thinking of Caesarean Retrofication? Yeah, that's it. Lance . . .
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
How about when Bob Dylan covers Buddy Holly's "Not Fade Away," but the arrangement of the song adheres pretty closely to the Dead's version? Is there a name for that? Isn't it Harmolodic Bifurcation? OR maybe I'm thinking of Caesarean Retrofication? Yeah, that's it. Lance . . . Oh, that's called "copying"... Barry
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
At 4:39 PM -0400 4/4/99, Amy Haugesag wrote: Well, referencing Peggy Lee's "Fever" isn't going to win any points with me, as I don't love either the song or her toneless version of it. If this loses me major kitsch-cred points, that's fine with me. Well thanks, I guess, for pointing out to me that I'm just respondingly ironically to the faked sensations of artistic rubbish. How ever could I have thought I sincerely liked the song on its own merits? g Whoa there, Dr. Ross. I don't recall mentioning anything about irony, faked sensations, or artistic rubbish. All I said was that I don't like the song or Peggy Lee's voice, and I mentioned its kitsch appeal (which I think is undeniable). I've been known to rail against ironic detachment at the least provocation, but this wasn't one of those instances, and I wasn't commenting on your reaction to the song (about which I know nothing) at all. Sheesh. --Amy
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Dr. Ross writes: I love the whole record, even the not-as-good-as-the-first-version "Fading Fast," and I'm especially impressed with the Nick Drake and Replacements covers, which are reinterpretations rather than rehashes, just like all good covers should be. Tsk tsk. So Peggy Lee's "Fever", Bob Dylan's "Broke Down Engine", and Merle's "San Antonio Rose" (to name just three rehashes that immediately came to mind) are not good covers? I'd say there are lots of way to make good covers. An artist with a strong, distinctive voice -- and I'd put all of the above in that category -- can make a note-for-note remake of a song and still make a recording I find valuable on the strength of the subtle variations that that distinctive voice brings to the song. Stepping up for Jon W. who is probably tired of making this point (except he probably would not require even subtle variations if the cover was performed with good grace and skill), Well, referencing Peggy Lee's "Fever" isn't going to win any points with me, as I don't love either the song or her toneless version of it. If this loses me major kitsch-cred points, that's fine with me. But I used the word "rehash" advisedly. I think it's possible and even fairly common to do a note-for-note rendition of someone else's song and *still* bring something of oneself--usually having to do with the distinctive voice that Ross mentions--to it. A rehash, on the other hand, is nothing more than a carbon copy of a song, one that doesn't add any distinctiveness of voice or anything else. A talented artist can sing a note-for-note rendition of a song they didn't write and still make it their own, by virtue of having a) a distinctive voice and b) emotional honesty, and specifically the ability to give the listener a sense that the song resonates emotionally for the singer as it did for the writer or original performer. In fact, radical reinterpretations tend not to work as well for me (for the most part--though I do like some complete overhauls, including the aforementioned punk rock version of "Pink Moon" that Sebadoh did) as do subtle reinterpretations like Kelly Willis does with the songs by Nick Drake and the Replacements. The songs are still recognizable (though "Time Has Told Me" may not be immediately so, at least on casual listen), and they don't stray all that far from the originals, but they're twangified enough to fit Kelly's style; hearing her do an English-folkie-style "Time Has Told Me" or an indie-rock "They're Blind" would have been weird. Way more detail than I wanted to get into. --Amy "Ain't no use in hanging around/Emptiness swallows its own path/I watch my weakness go down easy/And I pray it won't last..." (The Damnations TX)
RE: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Amy says: A talented artist can sing a note-for-note rendition of a song they didn't write and still make it their own, by virtue of having a) a distinctive voice and b) emotional honesty, and specifically the ability to give the listener a sense that the song resonates emotionally for the singer as it did for the writer or original performer. Exactly, and what's spooky, at least to me, is that while sometimes the emotional resonance is responsible for the "note-for-note" rendition, sometimes it's the other way around - that is, by concentrating fiercely on doing just what the original did, you achieve the emotional identification; by playing it, you become, for a moment, the original performer. I read a comment very much along these lines not too long ago from some performer or other, and now I can't find it; when I do, I'm going to post it, just to show that even if I'm crazy in looking at it this way, I'm not the only nut. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Any, then, Jon says the following, on covers: Exactly, and what's spooky, at least to me, is that while sometimes the emotional resonance is responsible for the "note-for-note" rendition, sometimes it's the other way around - that is, by concentrating fiercely on doing just what the original did, you achieve the emotional identification; by playing it, you become, for a moment, the original performer. I read a comment very much along these lines not too long ago from some performer or other, and now I can't find it; when I do, I'm going to post it, just to show that even if I'm crazy in looking at it this way, I'm not the only nut. You're not alone in this view at all, Jon. Don't have time for a detailed discussion, but I've never notice any pattern or rule to distinguishing "good" from "bad" covers. I don't consider a cover "secondary" to the "original," in fact. One could cite numerous covers that outdo the "originial" in various ways, or that work *even though* they're note-for-note copies, or work as completely reinterpretations. As best I can tell, there's just no rule. It's like for any kind of performance: some work, some don't I've never yet found a general rule to distinguish the succesful from the unsuccessful ones. If I had, I'd do all good covers g. -junior
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
You know, I'm glad this came up because as we speak I'm taping some of the Pine Valley Cosmonauts LP. What strikes me is that the songs which fail do so because they spotlight vocalists who are weak singers. Or, maybe it's that they are trying to adopt the Wills arrangements too strictly, which were able to feature a singer as fitted for those arrangements as Tommy Duncan was. Whatever the case, some of the vocalists on the PVC's album sure sound like they're used to singing rock 'n' roll songs, so they're unable to hide behind (or among) the band because the band is arranged around them. Their vocal "deficiencies" aren't as big a liability in most rock 'n' roll environments because they need only be tunefully enthusiastic, not sensitively collaborative. So, the PVCs band is shit-hot, but more than a few of the singers aren't up to the challenge. This is probably why Merle and Willie and George Strait can pull off Western Swing. It's not that their bands aren't all respectively brilliant, it's just that each of their voices is distinctively complementary. As Willie might say, they're aging with time like yesterday's wine. I hope some of these folks on the PVC do stick with the swing, maybe they'll have a great album before long. Or maybe someone should convince Dwight Yoakam to sing with the band. Lance, smoking T for Texas . . .
Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots
Bob Wray writes: I am somewhere in between of these two on my evalution of the entire album but I wanted to bop out of lurker land and say that Willis' cover of "Time Has Told Me" is just incredible to my ears. As a minor Drake fan(atic), I almost always prefer his originals to others but Willis' cover blew me away and made the purchase of an otherwise so-so album worthwhile. I can imagine this cover might contend for my song of the year, but the album will not. FWIW. I love the whole record, even the not-as-good-as-the-first-version "Fading Fast," and I'm especially impressed with the Nick Drake and Replacements covers, which are reinterpretations rather than rehashes, just like all good covers should be. When I first heard that Kelly was going to cover a Nick Drake song, before I actually heard the record, I had trepidations; Lucinda's fine rendition of "Which Will" Sebadoh's great version of "Pink Moon" notwithstanding, I've always seen Nick as one of those artists who just shouldn't be covered, because the originals are nearly impossible to improve upon. But by slightly reworking the tempo and phrasing of "Time Has Told Me," Kelly Willis makes the song fit the record's overall style and gives it an entirely new feel. It's nothing like Nick Drake's version, really, and that's why it works. And the choice of "They're Blind," much of which can serve as a metaphor for Kelly's whole career, is inspired too; with her heartfelt delivery, the song sounds convincingly wounded rather than just pissy (as the 'Mats version did). Definitely in my top 10 of the year and certain to stay there. --Amy
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Neal: Which reminds me, any minor or major Drake fan want to offer up a good starting point into that artist's catalog? I need to go buy yet another CD that I've never gonna have enough time to appreciate to its fullest. Sigh... Neal, Neal, Neal. How can you call yourself a rock critic if you don't know and love Nick Drake? Don't you know that all rock critics are required to love Nick Drake, along with the rest of the "critics' darlings"? Does the Rock Critic Licensing Office know about this? We may have to turn you in. The sampler culled from the boxed set (I think it's called Way to Blue, but CRS syndrome is affecting me tonight) isn't a bad place to start, but I'll agree with Jim Roll and recommend just buying the boxed set. Once you fall in love with Nick Drake--and you will, Neal--you'll want to own all of his stuff anyway, and though buying a boxed set of an artist you're not familiar with may sound kind of drastic, there is virtually no risk that you won't be glad you bought it. Three equally gorgeous records, plus the four harrowing, beautiful posthumously released tracks--you really can't go wrong. If you insist on starting with a single record, though, Bryter Layter is the record that most people consider Nick's best. (I can't pick a favorite, myself.) --Amy
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Which reminds me, any minor or major Drake fan want to offer up a good starting point into that artist's catalog? I need to go buy yet another CD that I've never gonna have enough time to appreciate to its fullest. Sigh... as a starting point and ending point i always turn to five leave left which will forever remind me of the dark brooding period of time when i discovered this dark brooding piece of workdrake is one of those artists that you tend to love or hate and i do love his work although he is one of those i listen to only when in a certain moodand usully that mood is dark when i dogive all his work a chance but i do suggest five leaves to begin with as for kelly willis and her versioni love her new record but her version of "time has told me" just doesn't quite work for methat is probably largely due to the fact that i enjoy the original so much but her version just doesn't capture the mood of drake'snow, if her cover opens some eyes and makes people wonder who nick drake is then ms. willis will have done a lot of good...i do hope more will check drake out and maybe this is a start of course lucinda williams did a very nice cover of drake's "which will" that is as brooding as drake so often was but then for some reason i believe drake and lucinda might have been able to relate on certain issuesthe woman knows how to brood pretty well as she has shown
Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
At 12:27 AM -0500 4/3/99, Amy Haugesag wrote: I love the whole record, even the not-as-good-as-the-first-version "Fading Fast," and I'm especially impressed with the Nick Drake and Replacements covers, which are reinterpretations rather than rehashes, just like all good covers should be. Tsk tsk. So Peggy Lee's "Fever", Bob Dylan's "Broke Down Engine", and Merle's "San Antonio Rose" (to name just three rehashes that immediately came to mind) are not good covers? I'd say there are lots of way to make good covers. An artist with a strong, distinctive voice -- and I'd put all of the above in that category -- can make a note-for-note remake of a song and still make a recording I find valuable on the strength of the subtle variations that that distinctive voice brings to the song. Stepping up for Jon W. who is probably tired of making this point (except he probably would not require even subtle variations if the cover was performed with good grace and skill), Ross Whitwam[EMAIL PROTECTED] Molecular Pharmacology Therapeutics Program Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, NYC
Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 1-Apr-99 Re: Kelly Willis calling th.. by Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] The song choices are often weak. A couple of the originals are good, but I get to wishing there was a producer there to separate the wheat from the chaff. I disagree. I think she does a great job of interpreting the Nick Drake song, brought a minor Replacements tune to life, and did yet another fine Paul Kelly cover. Add in fine guitar work by Chuck Prophet John Dee Graham and _What I Deserve_ is a lock for my year-end Top 10. Carl Z.
Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:48:46 -0500 (EST) From: Carl Abraham Zimring [EMAIL PROTECTED] Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 1-Apr-99 Re: Kelly Willis calling th.. by Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] The song choices are often weak. A couple of the originals are good, but I get to wishing there was a producer there to separate the wheat from the chaff. I disagree. I think she does a great job of interpreting the Nick Drake song, brought a minor Replacements tune to life, and did yet another fine Paul Kelly cover. Add in fine guitar work by Chuck Prophet John Dee Graham and _What I Deserve_ is a lock for my year-end Top 10. I am somewhere in between of these two on my evalution of the entire album but I wanted to bop out of lurker land and say that Willis' cover of "Time Has Told Me" is just incredible to my ears. As a minor Drake fan(atic), I almost always prefer his originals to others but Willis' cover blew me away and made the purchase of an otherwise so-so album worthwhile. I can imagine this cover might contend for my song of the year, but the album will not. FWIW. Bob NP: WCBN (still homesick -- and hash bash is tomorrow)
Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Soron writes: As a minor Drake fan(atic), Which reminds me, any minor or major Drake fan want to offer up a good starting point into that artist's catalog? I need to go buy yet another CD that I've never gonna have enough time to appreciate to its fullest. Sigh... Neal Weiss
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
On Fri, 2 Apr 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which reminds me, any minor or major Drake fan want to offer up a good starting point into that artist's catalog? I need to go buy yet another CD that I've never gonna have enough time to appreciate to its fullest. Sigh... Oh my fucking God does Nick Drake rule!! I would do the inevitable and buy the four CD box set. Personally Pink Moon and Bryter Later(sp?) are my favorites . . . but 5 Leaves Left has Cello Song (the prettiest song ever) and at least a couple of other essentials. And I am afraid I cannot listen to Kelly's cover of Nick knowing his version . . . just doesn't cut it, sorry. Just buy the box. And make sure you listen through a couple of times. The initial impressions are typically tame . . . but the payoff is one of the largest imaginable. My opinions of course . . . -jim
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Neal Weiss writes: Which reminds me, any minor or major Drake fan want to offer up a good starting point into that artist's catalog? I need to go buy yet another CD that I've never gonna have enough time to appreciate to its fullest. Sigh... Yeah, there's a real nice single-disc best-of collection on Rykodisc that'll serve you in good stead. If you want one of the real albums, I'd probably start with "Five Leaves Left." --Jon Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wollaston, Massachusetts
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Speaking of, has anyone read that biography of Drake that's around these days. Being cheap, I haven't bothered to skim one of those expensive-looking hardcovers I see everywhere. But I will probably consider it when remainder / paperback time rolls around... --junior
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
James Roll wrote: On Fri, 2 Apr 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which reminds me, any minor or major Drake fan want to offer up a good starting point into that artist's catalog? I need to go buy yet another CD that I've never gonna have enough time to appreciate to its fullest. Sigh... Oh my fucking God does Nick Drake rule!! I would do the inevitable and buy the four CD box set. Personally Pink Moon and Bryter Later(sp?) are my favorites . . . but 5 Leaves Left has Cello Song (the prettiest song ever) and at least a couple of other essentials. And I am afraid I cannot listen to Kelly's cover of Nick knowing his version . . . just doesn't cut it, sorry. I was in Neal's boat awhile back and asked a couple of Drake fanatics (the fan abbreviation does seem inappropriate here) and they both gave me, more or less, Jim's answer, per the box set. But as Jim said, it's not gonna grab you right away and takes some aural marination, so sounds like you're just outta luck Neal. g Nah, I bought FIVE LEAVES LEFT and I like it, but the corner hasn't been turned into fanaticism yet. b.s. n.p. Roger Miller box, disc1
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Ahhh . . . a chance to wax on the wonderful work of Nick Drake. None captures the twisted personal beauty of despair quite like him. You can truly hear him sinking into the end of his life on record. You can't go wrong with any of the discs. The compilation, "Way to Blue", is a great and representative sampling. The other extreme is just to buy the box set of 4 CDs . . . almost every track is great. The individual albums rank like this for me: Five Leaves Left - gorgeous stuff, a real competitor of "Astral Weeks" Bryter Layter - a more English folk-rock feel, great if you are a Fairport Convention et al. fan (some of those musicians appear) Pink Moon - wacked-out, sometimes abstract, largely solo, a great but somewhat slight record By the way, I'm fairly thumbs-down on the Kelly Willis cover. She's a little too sweet for the song. "A troubled cure/ for a troubled mind" just doesn't sit right unless sung by the spooked Mr. Drake. "Cradle of Love" is much better for her approach. JJM -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: passenger side [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 3:38 PM Subject: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots) Soron writes: As a minor Drake fan(atic), Which reminds me, any minor or major Drake fan want to offer up a good starting point into that artist's catalog? I need to go buy yet another CD that I've never gonna have enough time to appreciate to its fullest. Sigh... Neal Weiss
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, William F. Silvers wrote: Nah, I bought FIVE LEAVES LEFT and I like it, but the corner hasn't been turned into fanaticism yet. I don't think I would have turned the corner ever with Five Leaves Left. Definitely either Bryter Layter (orchestrated) or Pink Moon (solo). I'm tellin' ya . . . -jim
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, John Magee wrote: sweet for the song. "A troubled cure/ for a troubled mind" just doesn't sit right unless sung by the spooked Mr. Drake. "Time has told me you're a rare rare find a troubled cure for a troubled mind" fully agree. This is among my top two or three lines ever BTW. -jim
Re: Drake (Re: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
On the "me too" front, all Nick Drake is good. My favorite is the very spare _Pink Moon_, but _Way to Blue_ is an ideal introduction. Carl Z.
