Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Linda Ray wrote: Yah. Actually, all UT started was P2. Well, and Postcard, of course. Well okay and No Depression Magazine, but, hey. Uh, you can bet dollars to donuts that P2 would've happened on its own. The accidental spawning of P2 off of Postcard nicely coincided with the general net boom. Nothing against the original Postcard-to-P2 folks (I was one, been on since day one), but P2 didn't get really interesting until lots of non-Postcarders started coming along. I don't recall Weisberger being on Postcard g. Splitting hairs on a cold sleepy Monday, Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
At 5:34 PM -0500 on 3/5/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guess they didn't know about Joe Ely's tour with the Clash. UT was a decade too late. Yeah but, can't a decade too late also mean brand new to a new generation? Well, sure, if they've got no perspective. Asleep at the Wheel invented western swing, too. Bob
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
OH boy. Man Terry, you really have my blood boiling up here in Ann Arbor, and I am sure this debate has happened here before. But I am gonna bite anyways. On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Terry A. Smith wrote: This stuff confuses me, as does the idea that a "movement" evolved around Uncle Tupelo and Tweedy/Farrar. I think you've got your head in the sand if you think that Uncle Tupelo was not at the helm of the current No Depression/Alt. Country ship. This does not mean that they are a great band or that there wasn't non-commercial country prior to UT, (much as one would have to admit there was brit-pop and skiffle prior to the Beatles -- or -- sexy Honky Tonk/RB prior to Elvis Presley). But whether or not you like them we wouldn't have the term Alt.Country or No Depression used as it is without a few select bands UT, Jayhawks to name a couple. A lot of folks, including a lot of "elderly" people on this list, have been listening to what's currently encapsuled in the alt.country category, for up to 30 years, and even longer. This reminds me of a teenager trying to take owenership of his favorite punk band or grunge band. 'I heard it first!! I heard it first". This really isn't relevant to the UT/Tweedy posts. I am 33 years old and have been listening to Hank WIlliams/Bill Monroe/Carters/Balfa Brothers/The Outlaws/Marshal Tucker/The Long Riders/Green on Red/Steve Earle/Dwight Yoakam et. al. for most of my life. Big Deal. I think the point here is not whether the knowledgeable listener appreciates the music, but rather simply from a marketing point of vew the demographic is worth a commercial major label working it. I think Tera's point was well made. The stuff that sells is adolescent/sexy hormonal . . . and Alt. Country, whether the 40 somethings own it or not, is not gong to sell on that level. It's not meant to insult the "elderly" g. Nothing started with Uncle Tupelo, except for a stampede of non-Austin rock-n-rollers deciding to twang it up for awhile, and, thereby, making it a lot more difficult for people like me to pick the wheat from the chaff in the catalogs and record stores. Well, I would somewhat agree with you here. But unfortunately there has always been wheat and chaff and posers and artists. It sounds like you resent UT in some way. Well you have that right. But you are making a senseless generalization here in my opinion. Whether you like UT or not they have had an influence and it is in many ways posistive. They are clearly not a traditional band . . . but they did turn a lot of people on to traditional music who may not have heard it. THey combined punk roots with a love for traditional music and caught people's attention. There are so many loaded words in the sentence above that I don't even want to touch it. Just remember that musicians have every right to be influenced by other music and to play what they want. And that in many cases there are people out there who think that it is a positive thing. Also, I would bet that many people take great solace in the fact that they can sort through the wheat and chaff. Some may even find it fun. What the 'non-austin' part has to do with anything I cannot even guess. IS Austin the only place where people can play Alt. Country?? So many rules to learn!! So while there may be a lot of 40-year-olds gravitating toward the alt.country category, there's a lot of us who were hanging around listening to this stuff before Jeff Tweedy was out of short pants. Uh. Well no doubt. So what?? Doesn't mean that Tweedy shouldn't play his music does it?? Does it mean that sub 40 people should ask permission to listen to him and/or the real alt. country?? I think you missed the point entirely, which is simply that the demographic is not 'Hit Record' material. Alt. Country people aren't old or over the hill -- but rather they very simply aren't teeny-bopper hit making parents'-dollar-spending major label marketing material. That's it. Whether or not you like UT (I am not even a huge fan) without them I say you don't have Alt. Country/No Depression and you may not even have the amout of re-releases that we see today. I also challenge the idea that Alt. Country suddenly includes Bluegrass, Countrypolitan, Old Time, Folk, Punk-a-billy, Cowpunk, etc. Those things existed as genres before Alt. Country and No Depression ever surfaced. I think ultimately the reason that all of those got thrown into the mix was to attempt (and one I would make too) to legitimize Alt. Country as a valid programming format for radio. And we are still losing this struggle . . . which leads back to Tera's point . . . -jim
RE: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Jim says: I also challenge the idea that Alt. Country suddenly includes Bluegrass, Countrypolitan, Old Time, Folk, Punk-a-billy, Cowpunk, etc. Those things existed as genres before Alt. Country and No Depression ever surfaced. So did country-rock. I think ultimately the reason that all of those got thrown into the mix was to attempt (and one I would make too) to legitimize Alt. Country as a valid programming format for radio. I don't. I think that including those under the alt.country umbrella follows in large part from the counterposition of alt.country to mainstream country, which has been a big part (maybe too big g) of alt.country's definition. One point worth recalling - and I wish I could lay my hands on the interview - is that at least once one of the UT guys has said that part of their interest in doing country-influenced music was for the outrageousness factor, i.e., what could be more convention-defying to punk-oriented peers than getting twangy? Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
James Gerard Roll wrote: > I think you've got your head in the sand if you think that Uncle Tupelo > was not at the helm of the current No Depression/Alt. Country ship. This > does not mean that they are a great band or that there wasn't > non-commercial country prior to UT, (much as one would have to admit there > was brit-pop and skiffle prior to the Beatles -- or -- sexy Honky Tonk/RB > prior to Elvis Presley). But whether or not you like them we wouldn't > have the term Alt.Country or No Depression used as it is without a few > select bands UT, Jayhawks to name a couple. In my best Beavis voice, I'd respond, "Uh...so what?" Uncle Tupelo wasn't at the helm of *anything*. The media made them, in retrospect, the leader of this so-called movement. Terry's point is well stated: country rock/roots rock has been around for a long damn time (as you well know) and it doesn't mean a hill of beans that a bunch of journalists who wouldn't know Commander Cody or the Scorchers from their own arses have declared UT as grand champeen of this last round of country rockers. I like UT a lot, but they weren't originators, they were simply a band the media folk latched onto. People can say it all they want, but it doesn't make it so. > This reminds me of a teenager trying to take owenership of his favorite > punk band or grunge band. 'I heard it first!! I heard it first". This > really isn't relevant to the UT/Tweedy posts. I am 33 years old and have > been listening to Hank WIlliams/Bill Monroe/Carters/Balfa Brothers/The > Outlaws/Marshal Tucker/The Long Riders/Green on Red/Steve Earle/Dwight > Yoakam et. al. for most of my life. Big Deal. Big deal, indeed. I agree completely with Terry, though -- it does get awfully fucking tiresome to read the tripe about UT starting some big movement, especially when one reads the oft-repeated claims that they somehow awakened a type of music that had been dormant since Gram Parsons died. Terry isn't trying to sound like the coolest guy on the block because he's been there, done that, he's just pointing out that it's a lot of bollocks. I'm sure I'll be just as annoyed when roots rock (god, I hate the fucking alt.country tag) makes it's next mid-decade resurgence in 2005 and some annoying kid is talking about being inspired by the ghost of Whiskeytown. On an unrelated note, it's ironic that Jim brings up Kerouac in reference to Tweedy because I'll gladly nominate Jack as the most overrated of the Beats. No one would've heard jack about Jack if Ginsberg hadn't tirelessly shopped and promoted his work. "On The Road" will always be a jackoff work compared to Ginsberg's best stuff. But that's matter for another list, I suspect g>. Not attacking you, Jim, you just happened to hit on a couple of my pet peeves. A lot hungover and a little cranky, Dave P.S. If this newest round of roots rock is so damned great, why are 95% of its leading lights from the previous go-round (Alejandro, Earle, Alvin, etc.)? *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Dave Purcell wrote: reference to Tweedy because I'll gladly nominate Jack as the most overrated of the Beats. No one would've heard jack about Jack if Ginsberg hadn't tirelessly shopped and promoted his work. "On The Road" will always be a jackoff work compared to Ginsberg's best stuff. Wow, we must be of very differnt taste, Dave, because I don't think that Ginsberg (or many other people, much less Beats) have ever touched 'On the Road' (or for that matter even the last paragraph of 'On the Road'), Subterraneans, or Dharma Bums. At least we are consistantly opposed!! g -jim ps -- for me the term 'alt. country' indicates the combination of (post Nirvana) ALT-rock and traditional COUNTRY. UT/Jayhawks exemplefy this movement. I mean how can people deny UT's influence when the Alt. Country Bible (No Depression) is named after one of their albums?? Somebody help me here?? (by the way I am aware that the term 'No Depression' has its roots at the very least in The Carter Family -- but I would bet a quick survey of Peter Blackstock and Grant Alden would reveal that they used the term with UT somewhat in mind).
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
At 10:14 AM -0500 05/3/99, Dave Purcell wrote: In my best Beavis voice, I'd respond, "Uh...so what?" Uncle Tupelo wasn't at the helm of *anything*. The media made them, in retrospect, the leader of this so-called movement. Terry's point is well stated: country rock/roots rock has been around for a long damn time (as you well know) and it doesn't mean a hill of beans that a bunch of journalists who wouldn't know Commander Cody or the Scorchers from their own arses have declared UT as grand champeen of this last round of country rockers. I like UT a lot, but they weren't originators, they were simply a band the media folk latched onto. People can say it all they want, but it doesn't make it so. Well the genesis of this thread had to do with the way Tweedy is being perceived as distancing himself from the alt-country tag at seemingly every opportunity in interviews. The tag itself orginally gained wide currency to describe UT and similar bands, didn't it? Earlier bands in similar styles had other tags applied to them, such as roots rock, country rock, etc. Personally, I don't argue that these tags couldn't also be applied to UT, but Tweedy isn't bringing up these tags in his interviews. As I remember the articles, Tweedy specically addresses whether he would define his band as being part of the "alt-country" or "No Depression" movements. I don't think the point (originally) was whether UT originated or pioneered this style of music, but simply that they found themselves described with a label that didn't exist until after they had already started playing in that style. If Tweedy didn't set out to define himself with this tag -- as perfomers in well-established, long-defined genres such as blues or country do --, but rather found others defining his music for him, perhaps it's not surprising that he doesn't feel much loyalty or committment to keep using that tag. Ross Whitwam[EMAIL PROTECTED] Molecular Pharmacology Therapeutics Program Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, NYC
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
James Gerard Roll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I mean how can people deny UT's influence when the Alt. Country Bible (No Depression) is named after one of their albums?? Somebody help me here?? ND is *some* people's bible. Honestly I have never even seen a single issue of it. Last night I read a couple of the interviews in the ND book and I was not blown away by the writing. And I have never listened to a single Uncle Tupelo album. I saw Son Volt on Austin City Limits and they bored me. People's experiences are different, even within a "community" like alt.country/P2. Bill Gribble
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Jim's ps -- for me the term 'alt. country' indicates the combination of (post Nirvana) ALT-rock and traditional COUNTRY. UT/Jayhawks exemplefy this movement. I mean how can people deny UT's influence when the Alt. Country Bible (No Depression) is named after one of their albums?? Somebody help me here?? (by the way I am aware that the term 'No Depression' has its roots at the very least in The Carter Family -- but I would bet a quick survey of Peter Blackstock and Grant Alden would reveal that they used the term with UT somewhat in mind). As usual with this stuff, it all depends on how you look at it, and from what distance. When Uncle Tupelo came along, I listened to 'em and liked 'em quite a bit. Some of their records, both pre- and post-breakup, are among my favorites. But to this listener, at least, they didn't stand out stylistically from stuff I'd been listening to before. The Scorchers, Escovedo, Alvin, etc. They just sort of went into my record collection among all the other roots-oriented stuff I'd been throwing money at for years and years. It was only later that I started reading about their influence, etc. I'm not denying that influence, but just noting that, as Dave said, it probably has as much or more to do with circumstance and context as it does with the actual music. This applies to any music at any time, I guess, though with some music -- Elvis, the Beatles, Charlie Parker, Elmore James, Mozart, etc. -- the substance transcends or reinforces circumstance. All the yammering about Uncle Tupelo and alt.country by young squirts who wouldn't know Lefty Frizzell from Whitey Ford did get a little annoying, I'll confess. This debate, finally, really hinges on how narrowly you want to define alt.country. If you define it as punk-oriented guys playing guitar-driven rock with country undertones and heartland attitudes, who showed up in the mid- to late-80s, then I'll agree, you're probably correct about Tupelo and their influence on the genre. Draw the category a bit wider,though, and you're gonna have to contend with everybody from the Amazing Rhythm Aces to Mason Profit, from Rank and File to the Rolling Stones' Let It Bleed, from Ricky Nelson to Doug Sahm, from Carlene Carter to New Grass Revival, and on and on. And how does "No Depression" as a name for a magazine prove anything about Uncle Tupe's music itself? They're the media, right? If they see Uncle Tupelo as big influential innovator, that's fine. But it doesn't necessarily prove anything. -- Terry Smith ps I think Jim might have taken my post a little bit wrong, because, I'll admit, it didn't have a great deal to do with Tera's post that was copied in that message. Her post just indirectly sparked those thoughts; I wasn't necessarily challenging her argument.
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Who's are the Scorchers? NW Some overrated roots band from the 80s. The future of nothing, as far as I can tell. marie
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Reply to: Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED) Who's are the Scorchers? NW Some overrated roots band from the 80s. The future of nothing, as far as I can tell. marie As far as I can tell, Jason and the Scorchers was an important cowpunk band. And a hell of a live band. Hans P.
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
On 5 Mar 1999, Bill Gribble wrote: ND is *some* people's bible. Honestly I have never even seen a single issue of it. Last night I read a couple of the interviews in the ND book and I was not blown away by the writing. And I have never listened to a single Uncle Tupelo album. I saw Son Volt on Austin City Limits and they bored me. Geez, this medium sucks. I am merely stating that one of the main journals reviewing Americana music (does anyone dispute this?? I am sure there will be) is named after a UT album. If you don't accept this, than I suggest you look up the Origin of the terms Postcard and Postcard2 . . . to which you surely must agree you participate. -jim
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Terry A. Smith wrote: ps I think Jim might have taken my post a little bit wrong, because, I'll admit, it didn't have a great deal to do with Tera's post that was copied in that message. Her post just indirectly sparked those thoughts; I wasn't necessarily challenging her argument. Perhaps. I just find it frustrating that there is a debate as to whether on a concrete level, UT/Son Volt/Wilco can be associated with the origin of the Americana/No Depression/Alternative Country movement. To me it is a no brainer. And it seems highly relevant that both the No Depression Magazine and the Listserves 'Postcard' and the offspring 'Postcard2' are all directly related to UT songs and albums. I AM NOT CONDONING OR JUDGING THE QUALITY OR INTEGRITY OF THESE BANDS, MAGAZINES, OR ASSOCIATIONS, OR ADOPTING THEM FOR MYSELF. JUST ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THEY EXIST FOR MANY (NOT ALL) PEOPLE. I am defintely done with this topic. -Jim
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Terry A. Smith wrote: And how does "No Depression" as a name for a magazine prove anything about Uncle Tupe's music itself? They're the media, right? If they see Uncle Tupelo as big influential innovator, that's fine. But it doesn't necessarily prove anything. -- Terry Smith except that MY ONLY POINT was that the media has dubbed them as the originators of this movement and that THAT is what Tweedy is distancing himself from. --JR
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Exactly, man. The facts is the facts. Hell, I went right out and I bought a pistol right after I heard "Gun" because I worship Uncle Tupelo. And that's not all - when Anodyne came out I rented a car and drove to the New Madrid fault and slept there for a few days in my flannel t-shirt and blue jeans. I then went out a bought a house with a screen door so, I, too, could have my friends over to sing. We would all have our whiskey bottles with us and bitch about the boss and how we just couldn't rip ourselves from our hometown. Those guys SPOKE to me man. They were real. They knew the struggle of farming, just like I did. -Original Message- From: James Gerard Roll [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: passenger side [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 1:24 PM Subject: Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED) On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Terry A. Smith wrote: ps I think Jim might have taken my post a little bit wrong, because, I'll admit, it didn't have a great deal to do with Tera's post that was copied in that message. Her post just indirectly sparked those thoughts; I wasn't necessarily challenging her argument. Perhaps. I just find it frustrating that there is a debate as to whether on a concrete level, UT/Son Volt/Wilco can be associated with the origin of the Americana/No Depression/Alternative Country movement. To me it is a no brainer. And it seems highly relevant that both the No Depression Magazine and the Listserves 'Postcard' and the offspring 'Postcard2' are all directly related to UT songs and albums. I AM NOT CONDONING OR JUDGING THE QUALITY OR INTEGRITY OF THESE BANDS, MAGAZINES, OR ASSOCIATIONS, OR ADOPTING THEM FOR MYSELF. JUST ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THEY EXIST FOR MANY (NOT ALL) PEOPLE. I am defintely done with this topic. -Jim
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Exactly, man. The facts is the facts. Hell, I went right out and I bought a pistol right after I heard "Gun" because I worship Uncle Tupelo. And that's not all - when Anodyne came out I rented a car and drove to the New Madrid fault and slept there for a few days in my flannel t-shirt and blue jeans. I then went out a bought a house with a screen door so, I, too, could have my friends over to sing. We would all have our whiskey bottles with us and bitch about the boss and how we just couldn't rip ourselves from our hometown. Those guys SPOKE to me man. They were real. They knew the struggle of farming, just like I did. Tee-hee, this are funny. You know, there's something about comedy that just makes me laugh. Lance . . .
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Jeff Copetas dreamt this up: Exactly, man. The facts is the facts. Hell, I went right out and I bought a pistol right after I heard "Gun" because I worship Uncle Tupelo. And that's not all - when Anodyne came out I rented a car and drove to the New Madrid fault and slept there for a few days in my flannel t-shirt and blue jeans. I then went out a bought a house with a screen door so, I, too, could have my friends over to sing. We would all have our whiskey bottles with us and bitch about the boss and how we just couldn't rip ourselves from our hometown. Those guys SPOKE to me man. They were real. They knew the struggle of farming, just like I did. then lance davis wrote: Tee-hee, this are funny. You know, there's something about comedy that just makes me laugh. to which I add: yeah. huhuh! Especially when it sets a complete moron like me on the high road to knowing more about things. thanks Jeff, I see now. forget all that stupid stuff I said about Tweedy/UT peoples. k? I was dum . . . -jim
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Terry A. Smith wrote: And how does "No Depression" as a name for a magazine prove anything about Uncle Tupe's music itself? They're the media, right? If they see Uncle Tupelo as big influential innovator, that's fine. But it doesn't necessarily prove anything. -- Terry Smith except that MY ONLY POINT was that the media has dubbed them as the originators of this movement and that THAT is what Tweedy is distancing himself from. --JR Actually, you made a few more points than that. My point, whether it dovetails apositively with your point or not, is that whatever media proclaimed Uncle Tupelo the originator of alt.country MUSIC suffer from a musical blind spot that's several decades huge. No argument, however, with the reality -- which is that somebody's wrongheaded assessment of Uncle Tupelo as a Brand New Musical Thang did, in fact, inspire a revitalization of the country-rock genre -- young rock bands playing country-type material. So we're both right -- they started something, but that something was started under false pretenses, whether UT intended it or not. I'm sure they didn't. Hey, there's no harm in arguing this stuff, is there? My wife thinks I'm dense, too. -- Terry Smith
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Guess they didn't know about Joe Ely's tour with the Clash. UT was a decade too late. Yeah but, can't a decade too late also mean brand new to a new generation? NW
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
In a message dated 3/5/99 12:14:35 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am merely stating that one of the main journals reviewing Americana music (does anyone dispute this?? I am sure there will be) is named after a UT album. I thought that was a Carter Family song. I have decided that I hate alt. country, and love country and western music. Slim
RE: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
Guess they didn't know about Joe Ely's tour with the Clash. UT was a decade too late. and the unfortunate part of this is joe ely has yet to really find his decadeone of those artists who has been mining this "genre" (whatever the hell you folks want to call this genre) for yrs and yrs yet has never really broken thruyes, he has a nice base of people who like and respect him but he has never made that big jump and that is shame
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (LONG and IRRITATED)
In a message dated 3/5/99 9:14:18 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: /colorBig deal, indeed. I agree completely with Terry, though -- it does get awfully fucking tiresome to read the tripe about UT starting some big movement, especially when one reads the oft-repeated claims that they somehow awakened a type of music that had been dormant since Gram Parsons died. Yah. Actually, all UT started was P2. Well, and Postcard, of course. Well okay and No Depression Magazine, but, hey. Linda "it's not about the music it's about the internet" Ray
