Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
Roll, you're a lunatic. But I'll concede the real reason I've declined to set Uncle Tupelo on a pedestal and worship at their feet is the way they used to play rock songs. They'd get going, I'd get into the swing of things, and then they'd pull off one of those annoying stops, and then starts, and then stops, and then starts. Shit, I like my music to keep on rolling, and those guys were playing games with my ears. So there you have it. The rest of my over-intellectualizing pedantry -- advancing the stunning notion that UT fits into a continuum of music, and doesn't stand above folks like Lucinda, Dave Alvin, Neil Young, Doug Sahm, where alternative forms of country music are concerned -- is just pissiness brought on by having to stay home with the kids on -- yet another -- snow day. Now I've got to go out and intellectualize with a snow shovel. -- Terry Smith
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 9-Mar-99 Re: Tweedy quote/alt.countr.. by "Terry A. Smith"@seorf.O But I'll concede the real reason I've declined to set Uncle Tupelo on a pedestal and worship at their feet is the way they used to play rock songs. They'd get going, I'd get into the swing of things, and then they'd pull off one of those annoying stops, and then starts, and then stops, and then starts. I dug that wish Farrar would do it more now. Carl Z. snowbound
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
Actually as absurd as this is gonna sound, you are not really the pedant/intellectualizing type Terry. I am sorry. You did manage to get a little condescension in there in my opinion, but ultimately your initial post had a bit too much passion. I am sorry. g -jim On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Terry A. Smith wrote: Roll, you're a lunatic. But I'll concede the real reason I've declined to set Uncle Tupelo on a pedestal and worship at their feet is the way they used to play rock songs. They'd get going, I'd get into the swing of things, and then they'd pull off one of those annoying stops, and then starts, and then stops, and then starts. Shit, I like my music to keep on rolling, and those guys were playing games with my ears. So there you have it. The rest of my over-intellectualizing pedantry -- advancing the stunning notion that UT fits into a continuum of music, and doesn't stand above folks like Lucinda, Dave Alvin, Neil Young, Doug Sahm, where alternative forms of country music are concerned -- is just pissiness brought on by having to stay home with the kids on -- yet another -- snow day. Now I've got to go out and intellectualize with a snow shovel. -- Terry Smith
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
Fair enough, Todd. The most interesting aspect of this thread for me was seeing the residual (but powerful) respect and support for UT et al that exists on this list. I'm surprised, I guess, because whenever there's a sort of reflexive dismissal of the alt.country field -- many of whose bands were inspired by UT et al -- we're likely to see not a peep of protest or argument. The suggestion that "skill" is something that's solidly on the country side of the tracks sometimes goes unchallenged, too. I'd just like to see more sturdy debate from the rock side of things, rather than allowing the "country side" have the field. Me, of course, I'm on the polka side of the tracks! -- Terry Smith nr(reading): Robert Harris' "Archangel" about the modern-day discovery of Stalin's secret heir, living like a hermit in the woods near the White Sea. Great novel. So, was J. Stalin worse than Hitler?
RE: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
The suggestion that "skill" is something that's solidly on the country side of the tracks... Uh-oh, time for some clarification, or maybe backtracking g. I don't think I've argued that skill (why the quotes?) is something that's solidly on the country side of the tracks; I have argued, and I think there's plenty of evidence to support it, that craft is respected and valued in the country tradition in ways that it seems not to be, or at least not as much, elsewhere. One indicator, though not the only one, is the persistence of instrumental pieces in the country tradition, especially in bluegrass, cajun, old-time and other forms, though it can still be found in the mainstream, even today. Yes, they're often (though far from always) dance-related, but even so, recognition of and admiration for the musicians' abilities to just play well (as opposed to expressing particular emotions or thoughts) are important elements in the appreciation of these. I'd be hard-pressed to think of examples of instrumentals in the alt.country field that don't fall pretty clearly into the out-of-classic-country stream, rather than the, er, UT-and-before-and-after one. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
instrumentally speaking (was Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG))
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 9-Mar-99 RE: Tweedy quote/alt.countr.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne I'd be hard-pressed to think of examples of instrumentals in the alt.country field that don't fall pretty clearly into the out-of-classic-country stream, rather than the, er, UT-and-before-and-after one. One problem I see with your logic, Jon, is that much of the rock side of alt.country's influences (especially the punk artists), for whatever reason, don't include many instrumentals. Bands influenced by the Clash, the Sex Pistols, and the Velvet Ungerground tend to sing (or shout), because vocals are essential to their music. Having said that, Victor Krummenacher's past two records each feature a nice instrumental -- the one on his last album owes a bit to Fleetwood Mac's "Albatross". The Sadies have a few on their album (I think the surf influence has a lot to do with it -- Alex, can you think of other surf-influenced alt.country types?), and Pinetop Seven's been known to do one or two. The Waco's did Geronimo on their first record. But these are atypical examples. Waiting to see mention of a Greg Ginn-influenced Western Swing instrumental band, Carl Z.
Stalin WAS: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
Terry wonders: nr(reading): Robert Harris' "Archangel" about the modern-day discovery of Stalin's secret heir, living like a hermit in the woods near the White Sea. Great novel. So, was J. Stalin worse than Hitler? Stalin said something like, "One murder is a tragedy. One million murders is a statistic." By dint of numbers and time spent in complete control, I'd say Stalin was worse. But once dictators pass a certain threshold of being an abomination, is it possible to quantify these things? Kelly
Re: instrumentally speaking (was Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG))
Sez Carl: One problem I see with your logic, Jon, is that much of the rock side of alt.country's influences (especially the punk artists), for whatever reason, don't include many instrumentals. Bands influenced by the Clash, the Sex Pistols, and the Velvet Ungerground tend to sing (or shout), because vocals are essential to their music. Sez Jon: That's my point. Even hedged with all kinds of qualifications, I think it's fair to say that in general, where vocals are essential, there's an orientation toward communicating emotions, ideas, etc., and technique and, well, skill - at least instrumental - are more than occasionally seen as, at best, irrelevant to that. See, now, and I thought the whole *point* of punk was to *not* be able to play well. I am not being facetious here. I thought the general punk stance was "F**k this elitist, bourgeois, closed music system. We're gonna play even though we don't know how, and maybe that'll turn the world of music on its ear, and even if it doesn't we'll have a good time with our mates making a whole lot of noise. Being all tied up in technique and knowing how to play is for wankers. Tear up everything." Why have instrumentals if it's important not to be one of those wankers who know how to play? Kelly, ready to have her simplistic understanding of punk adjusted NPIMH "All I Am Is Loving You" by The Teardrop Explodes
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
Terry Smith: nr(reading). Great novel. So, was J. Stalin worse than Hitler? Well, Stalin liked sports; Hitler liked music. It bent these men a little, positively bent them. Barry (These are the wages of synthesis.)
RE: Stalin WAS: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
-Original Message- From: William F. Silvers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Good question. And I'd agree with you that Stalin was indeed worse than Hitler, though certainly they're both waaay past that "threshold" you mention. Had this discussion off-list with another P2er awhile back. Hmm. g I'd assert that both were the most evil monsters in human history and leave ranking them out of it. One must not forget that adorable tyrant, Pol Pot. He belongs in the same league as the two mentioned above by Bill. rebecca
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
Barry Mazor wrote: Terry Smith: nr(reading). Great novel. So, was J. Stalin worse than Hitler? Well, Stalin liked sports; Hitler liked music. It bent these men a little, positively bent them. Barry (These are the wages of synthesis.) Yeah but was Stalin the Tweedy fan and Hitler the Farrar fan, or vice versa? Or did Hitler think that UT were the progenitors of alt-country, while Stalin asserted that it was a decades old form that was not being duly recognized as such by the UT fans, or vice versa? Or... totalitarianism, the original alt-country? g b.s.
Re: instrumentally speaking (was Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG))
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 9-Mar-99 RE: instrumentally speaking.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne The Sadies have a few on their album (I think the surf influence has a lot to do with it... Not to mention the bluegrass/country one g, which I'm reminded of because there was a fairly recent inquiry about the Good Brothers over on bgrass-l. True. I offer surf for a reason, as it is an instrumentally-based style of rock. Off the top of my head, I can't think of many twang bands who incorporate surf other than the Sadies (though I haven't heard Jimmy Wilsey's new band yet). Does anyone on this list play music in the style of Dick Dale? For that matter, can anyone think of a twangy band influenced by Camper Van Beethoven's trippy instrumentals? As for technical proficiency, I think David nailed that one on the head. Johnny Ramone's musical vocabulary, while small, is not limiting he does a lot with a few chords. Few Ramones songs could be called instrumentals, though they aren't exactly wordy. Carl Z. fave Ramones song: Warthog.
Re: instrumentally speaking (was Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG))
In a message dated 3/9/99 3:02:04 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: True. I offer surf for a reason, as it is an instrumentally-based style of rock. Off the top of my head, I can't think of many twang bands who incorporate surf other than the Sadies (though I haven't heard Jimmy Wilsey's new band yet). Does anyone on this list play music in the style of Dick Dale? I think only Dick Dale does Dick Dale, but Junior Brown did a pretty mean surf medley on Semi-Crazy. Joe X. Horn Pledge Drive Survivor
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, James Gerard Roll wrote: But I suspect that (while no-one will admit it) there is a certain status that A FEW people desire when part of a small cultish phenomenon like P2 that involves members wanting to prove that they are not part of the TREND but rather have a deeper affiliation with (in this case) the music. Thus the UT/Tweedy backlash. I'd estimate way more than a few, Jim. That attitude permeates the alt-country community. I can't even begin to count how many times someone's assured me they've been into this alt-country (or just plain country) stuff long before it became a fad, or read press releases or interviews or record reviews with someone asserting the same. A big part of that's no doubt the usual hipster cooler-than-thou pose (which can be found in just about any musical subgenre you care to name), but I'd like to think that it's also an implicit recognition of the value of tradition in country music. OK, I'm foolin' myself -- so what?g--don
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
Yeah but was Stalin the Tweedy fan and Hitler the Farrar fan, or vice versa? Or did Hitler think that UT were the progenitors of alt-country, while Stalin asserted that it was a decades old form that was not being duly recognized as such by the UT fans, or vice versa? Or... Actually, Stalin reportedly enjoyed listening to orchestrated music with "dogs" doing the vocals. He'd force his generals and aides to dance until the early morning hours to this stuff. -- Terry Smith (who's sincerely sorry he threw this utterly non-musical issue out for comment -- is there a purge coming?)
Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG)
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Don Yates wrote: of that's no doubt the usual hipster cooler-than-thou pose (which can be found in just about any musical subgenre you care to name), but I'd like to think that it's also an implicit recognition of the value of tradition in country music. OK, I'm foolin' myself -- so what?g--don LOL That's the most hopeful and touching thing I have read in a long time Don!! GGG You ARE an old softy deep down. I'll actually buy that explanation . . . peoples' desire to harken back to the origin of THIS movement is kinda like an emotional cowboy hat!! and an old dusty one to boot . . . -jim
Re: instrumentally speaking (was Re: Tweedy quote/alt.country (REAL LONG))
In a message dated 3/9/99 3:22:44 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I can't think of many twang bands who incorporate surf other than the Sadies Deke dickerson did a few surfy numbers at the Cheapo instore on saturday. Good stuff. Slim
