Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-09 Thread Donald Stufft


> On Oct 9, 2018, at 8:30 AM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> 
> On 09.10.2018 08:24, Donald Stufft wrote:
>> On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level 
>> for the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either 
>> “Watching” which will default all new topics in a category to watching or 
>> “first post”, which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for 
>> *only* the first post in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching 
>> after that.
> 
> Thanks, I'll give that a try.
> 


One thing to clarify— Changing that setting will only apply to *new* topics in 
that category. It basically lets you set a category specific default for the 
notification level of new topics. Once the topic has been created that setting 
has no effect which allows you to adjust your notification level on a per topic 
basis after the fact. If for instance you default to watching, but a noisy 
thread happens you don’t care about, you can just unwatch that particular 
thread.

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-09 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
On 09.10.2018 08:24, Donald Stufft wrote:
> On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level 
> for the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either 
> “Watching” which will default all new topics in a category to watching or 
> “first post”, which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for *only* 
> the first post in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching after 
> that.

Thanks, I'll give that a try.

>> On Oct 8, 2018, at 9:29 PM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications,
>> but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis,
>> since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries
>> (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time
>> I subscribed).
>>
>> Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- 
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>  http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>>
>> On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
>>> I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
>>> some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
>>> governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
>>> we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
>>> PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
>>> can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
>>>
>>> Victor
>>> Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :

 On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>
>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>> core developers?
>
> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
> for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
> core developers and non-core developers?

 I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
 to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
 core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
 forum.

 I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
 I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?

 If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
 in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
 these just to keep up with everything.

 --
 Marc-Andre Lemburg
 eGenix.com

 Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
 

 ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

 ___
 python-committers mailing list
 python-committers@python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
 Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>> ___
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/

Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-09 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Thank you!  I hadn't noticed this setting and it will be helpful.

Regards

Antoine.


Le 09/10/2018 à 14:24, Donald Stufft a écrit :
> On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level 
> for the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either 
> “Watching” which will default all new topics in a category to watching or 
> “first post”, which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for *only* 
> the first post in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching after 
> that.
> 
>> On Oct 8, 2018, at 9:29 PM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications,
>> but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis,
>> since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries
>> (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time
>> I subscribed).
>>
>> Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- 
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>  http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>>
>> On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
>>> I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
>>> some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
>>> governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
>>> we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
>>> PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
>>> can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
>>>
>>> Victor
>>> Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :

 On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>
>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>> core developers?
>
> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
> for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
> core developers and non-core developers?

 I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
 to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
 core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
 forum.

 I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
 I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?

 If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
 in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
 these just to keep up with everything.

 --
 Marc-Andre Lemburg
 eGenix.com

 Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
 

 ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

 ___
 python-committers mailing list
 python-committers@python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
 Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>> ___
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 
> ___
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 

Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-09 Thread Donald Stufft
On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level for 
the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either “Watching” 
which will default all new topics in a category to watching or “first post”, 
which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for *only* the first post 
in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching after that.

> On Oct 8, 2018, at 9:29 PM, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> 
> FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications,
> but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis,
> since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries
> (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time
> I subscribed).
> 
> Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
> 
> Thanks,
> -- 
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
> 
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
 Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
 Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
 Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
> 
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
> 
>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>  http://www.malemburg.com/
> 
> 
> On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
>> I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
>> some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
>> governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
>> we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
>> PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
>> can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
>> 
>> Victor
>> Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :
>>> 
>>> On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
 
> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
> core developers?
 
 You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
 for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
 core developers and non-core developers?
>>> 
>>> I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
>>> to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
>>> core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
>>> forum.
>>> 
>>> I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
>>> I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
>>> 
>>> If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
>>> in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
>>> these just to keep up with everything.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>> eGenix.com
>>> 
>>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>> 
>>>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>>  http://www.malemburg.com/
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> python-committers mailing list
>>> python-committers@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 
> ___
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

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Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/


Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-09 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
On 09.10.2018 05:33, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 9 Oct 2018, at 03:29, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications,
>> but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis,
>> since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries
>> (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time
>> I subscribed).
>>
>> Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
> 
> I turned on mailing list mode and appear to get mail for new topics as well. 

I have this turned on as well, but don't get those emails.

Perhaps there's some other setting I'm missing.

Thanks.

>> Thanks,
>> -- 
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>  http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>>
>> On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
>>> I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
>>> some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
>>> governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
>>> we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
>>> PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
>>> can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
>>>
>>> Victor
>>> Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :

 On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>
>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>> core developers?
>
> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
> for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
> core developers and non-core developers?

 I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
 to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
 core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
 forum.

 I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
 I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?

 If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
 in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
 these just to keep up with everything.

 --
 Marc-Andre Lemburg
 eGenix.com

 Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
 

 ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

 ___
 python-committers mailing list
 python-committers@python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
 Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>> ___
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 
> 

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langen

Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-08 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications,
but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis,
since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries
(only ones for the ones which were already available at the time
I subscribed).

Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/


On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
> I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
> some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
> governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
> we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
> PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
> can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
> 
> Victor
> Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :
>>
>> On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>>>
 It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
 core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
 core developers?
>>>
>>> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
>>> for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
>>> core developers and non-core developers?
>>
>> I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
>> to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
>> core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
>> forum.
>>
>> I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
>> I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
>>
>> If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
>> in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
>> these just to keep up with everything.
>>
>> --
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
>> ___
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

___
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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/


Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-08 Thread Victor Stinner
I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails,
some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new
governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should
we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me
PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we
can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)

Victor
Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg  a écrit :
>
> On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> >
> >> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
> >> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
> >> core developers?
> >
> > You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public 
> > for anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for 
> > core developers and non-core developers?
>
> I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
> to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
> core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
> forum.
>
> I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
> I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
>
> If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
> in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
> these just to keep up with everything.
>
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
>
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>
>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>
> ___
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
___
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Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/


Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-03 Thread Chris Jerdonek
Great, thank you!
--Chris



On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:44 AM Berker Peksağ 
wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 1:06 PM Chris Jerdonek 
> wrote:
> > Hi Łukasz, I tried signing up three days ago, but it doesn't look like
> I've been approved yet (e.g. I'm not listed in the members list). I notice
> some other people have been approved during this time based on the group
> count. I tried emailing you privately about this a couple days ago, too.
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> I've just added you to the group.
>
> --Berker
> ___
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-03 Thread Berker Peksağ
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 1:06 PM Chris Jerdonek  wrote:
> Hi Łukasz, I tried signing up three days ago, but it doesn't look like I've 
> been approved yet (e.g. I'm not listed in the members list). I notice some 
> other people have been approved during this time based on the group count. I 
> tried emailing you privately about this a couple days ago, too.

Hi Chris,

I've just added you to the group.

--Berker
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-03 Thread Chris Jerdonek
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 4:47 PM Łukasz Langa  wrote:

> On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:55, Chris Jerdonek  wrote:
>
> I hope this thread about transitioning is exempt from this call to action!
> :)
>
> This e-mail is specifically re-posted on Discourse so you can discuss it
> there, too :-)
>

Hi Łukasz, I tried signing up three days ago, but it doesn't look like I've
been approved yet (e.g. I'm not listed in the members list). I notice some
other people have been approved during this time based on the group count.
I tried emailing you privately about this a couple days ago, too.

Thanks for any help,
--Chris



- Ł
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-01 Thread Doug Hellmann


> On Oct 1, 2018, at 8:18 AM, Doug Hellmann  wrote:
> 
> Signed PGP part
> 
> 
>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Łukasz Langa > > wrote:
>> 
>> Signed PGP part
>> Hello committers,
>> since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:
>> 
>> - we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
>> - we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
>> - go to https://discuss.python.org/  and create 
>> your account there;
>> - please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the year to 
>> give Discourse a real shot.
> 
> The site shows up blank for me in Safari.
> 
> Which browsers are supported?

Nevermind, it appears related to the javascript popup-blocking setting.

Doug



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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-10-01 Thread Doug Hellmann


> On Sep 28, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
> 
> Signed PGP part
> Hello committers,
> since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:
> 
> - we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
> - we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
> - go to https://discuss.python.org/  and create 
> your account there;
> - please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the year to 
> give Discourse a real shot.

The site shows up blank for me in Safari.

Which browsers are supported?

Doug



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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Sat., 29 Sep. 2018, 7:40 pm Łukasz Langa,  wrote:

>
> On Sep 29, 2018, at 09:53, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>
> Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily
> impact the future of python-dev.
>
>
> Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made
> us decide to move fast on this.
>
> Part of why we are in this mess in the first place is due to inadequate
> moderation controls available on mailing lists and the way they invite
> thundering herds of answers and the combinatorial explosion of posts in
> trees of discussion. The PEP 572 process exercised this painfully well.
>

This is not a problem that applies to python-committers, since there are
less than a hundred people on the planet with permission to post to it.


> Discourse is a chance to address the problems that contributed to the BDFL
> stepping down.
>

For the generally accessible mailing lists, I agree completely, and if this
had been a post to core-workflow saying "We want to experiment with closing
python-ideas and moving it to a Discourse forum", I would been an
enthusiastic +1. The same goes for core-mentorship: I think we've given MM3
a fair go there, and my conclusion is that while it does improve several
aspects of the moderation process over MM2, it's still much weaker on that
front than Discourse.


That isn't what happened: the *first* I heard about this idea was a
peremptory *order* to say that I had to move *now*, which isn't how the
system works. Even when Guido was BDFL he wouldn't have been able to
declare "We're dropping the mailing lists and switching to web forums" and
make it stick - we'd have told him to write a PEP and make his case, just
like anyone else (akin to Mariatta's current excellent PEP laying out the
pros and cons of switching to a different issue tracker).

The closest equivalent I can think of would be when python-committers was
split out from python-dev (so that subscribing to python-dev could be made
optional), and even then most of the critical announcements continued to be
cross-posted to python-dev, and the discussions themselves didn't move.




>
> arbitrary decision making
>
> ...
>
> insufficiently representative group
>
> ...
>
> without involving most of the people affected
>
> ...
>
> Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two
> releases, 20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats
> but I'm on the phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of
> replacing the mailing lists met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts,
> the group was *sufficiently* representative and involved *most* of the
> people affected.
>

The governance discussions affect, and need to involve *all* committers,
not just the currently active ones.

One particular reason why I consider the group at in-person events to be
inherently insufficiently representative is that I was a core developer for
more than five years before I ever met another core dev in person, and
during that time I felt fully included in the decision making process.

I think that's less true now, and part of the reason for it is that more
discussions are taking place in contexts where the only folks present are
those in a position to devote several work days to CPython related travel.
Accounting for the opinions, perspectives, and feelings of those that
aren't present only happens through the deliberate effort of those that are
in the room.


>From 2011 to 2017, that "in the room" group pretty consistently included
me, since Red Hat were very permissive when it came to allowing time for
that kind of thing, and the PSF was willing to compensate for RH's
reluctance to provide travel funding.

But I never forgot what I'd needed to feel included in the process before
that job change, so I constantly asked myself not "who's here?" but rather
"Who *isn't* here?", and advocated for approaches that lessened the gap
between those two groups (most importantly: in-person events being for high
bandwidth discussions that would subsequently be summarised in writing, not
final decisions that would be handed down with no further asynchronous
online discussion to be entered into)



> I would prefer for everybody to be there, of course. Some decided against
> it, some could not be there even though they wanted to. This is
> unfortunate. But if you have committer unanimity in mind, that's not
> something that was feasible regardless of the forum.
>

No, it isn't about unanimity, it's about ensuring that folks have the
opportunity to be heard, rather than being explicitly told "You weren't
there at the time, so your point of view is irrelevant".

Red Hat had a good phrase for this in their Open Decision Making [1]
framework: affected associates may still be disappointed by an outcome, but
they shouldn't be surprised by it.

In this case I was surprised twice over:

* a core workflow change was proposed and implemented without even being
mentioned on the core-workflow mailing l

Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Steve Dower
I just wanted to add that while I was not involved in the Discourse
discussions at the sprint (and didn't realise there were "discussions"
going on), and while I would have been opposed to such a drastic change,
my first impressions of discuss.python.org are good.

Things that I have configured to make it better for me:
* secure password and 2FA with an authenticator app
* my default landing page is "latest" not "categories"
* muted the categories I'm not interested in
* disabled direct messages (you can email me; if you don't know how,
then please don't email me :) )
* disabled email notifications, except the once per week when I haven't
logged in (we'll see whether I change that after a week...)

Things that I just like:
* like button, rather than +1 emails (and you can disable the
notifications for this)
* Ctrl+V to paste images into a message
* good mobile layout - doesn't try to do fancy stuff that fails on phones
* transitions between pages are smooth, and drafts are auto-saved (I
haven't really wanted more than one tab open yet)
* mentions (my email filtering rules prioritised the lists, so they
never came direct - but I should notice actual mentions more quickly now)

So I'm fairly happy to try it out for a while. I'm interested to see
whether it works better for PEP discussions (oh I want Google Wave back
so badly sometimes!) and if we can migrate things like the
buildbot-status list (one thread per configuration might be nice).

Not entirely comfortable with declaring the mailing list "dead" so
quickly, but I know for infrastructure stuff it's sometimes hard to get
community momentum without just doing it.

Cheers,
Steve
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Terry Reedy

On 9/29/2018 4:51 AM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:

29.09.18 03:45, Łukasz Langa пише:


>> (To paraphrase) 'We' are switching committers-list to Discourse.

Who is this 'we'?  I don't remember any discussion, let alone a vote.


On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of 
core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.


Yes, I do. I read all Python-related mailing list via the Gmane gate. It 
is convenient in case of large discussions, when I can read selected 
branches and ignore others. The great advantage of NNTP is that it 
provides access to past discussions. I can read Python-Dev discussions 
back from 1999.


Like Barry and Serhiy and perhaps others, I use gmane for all python 
lists I follow with a gmane mirror.  At least with Thunderbird, I 
generally find it far superior to to the list interface: each list/group 
automatically goes is a separate directory; only subject lines are 
auto-downloaded*; I can choose to only see unread subject lines; I can 
set an auto-purge time.


* I now download and read less than half of python-list and 
python-ideas.  When I am done with a batch, shift-C marks the rest as 
'read' and therefore invisible unless I choose to see all unpurged articles.


When the gmane search page worked, it was much better than mailman's 
month-by-month search.  Perhaps Discourse fixes this.



We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.


There definitely is, but ...

Would be nice. It would be even better if provide the own NNTP gate and 
avoid depending on third-party services.


Agreed.

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Donald Stufft

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> Another way to think about this is if we wait until after our governance 
> discussions and try this experiment the volume quite possibly won't be at a 
> level to stress test how the interaction on Discourse works. And while I 
> personally find day-to-day stuff manageable via email (but definitely not 
> ideal), it's when the volume spikes horribly that I typically find email 
> falls over the most. And I don't know about the rest  of you, but I have not 
> been looking forward to the governance discussions _because_ of the volume 
> and I am too familiar with how difficult those discussions become difficult 
> to manage via email.


I’d like to also point out that this isn’t a new idea, a year and a half ago we 
had the overload-sig whose idea was to solve this very thing (and Discourse was 
one of the options back then as well, as well as MM3, and uh… Github issues?). 
The results of the overload-sig were basically totally inconclusive because we 
never moved to the point of trying an *actual* list with *actual* traffic. So 
it just kind of fell to the wayside because we were never able to really test 
it out. 

Testing out a new medium for discussion is always hard, there is a fair amount 
of churn involved in getting everyone to move over to the new location, thus 
you tend to want to try it with a small group of people to limit the impact. 
Unfortunately the downside to a small group of people is that they tend not to 
produce a large amount of email (and when it’s invite only, are less likely to 
need some of the more advanced moderation facilities). 

So python-committers itself is still small enough that a mailing list doesn’t 
typically have the main problems that we’re trying to solve. However, the 
governance discussions give us a somewhat unique opportunity in that they’re 
likely going to increase the amount of discussion on this list by a fair 
amount. That gives us a chance to take an otherwise small list, and give it a 
more realistic test than it otherwise would be, without trying to tell the 
entirety of say, python-ideas, to switch to a new medium.

I do believe we have a problem though, and I think it is getting worse. I’ve 
personally more or less completely checked out of python-dev and python-ideas, 
in large parts because of the problems with email and mailing lists. We’re 
burning Brett out, and quite frankly I think that the nature of large mailing 
lists makes all of our discussions more likely to become heated.

With that, I urge everyone to give Discourse a fair shake for these next 3 
months, and try to move as much of the discussion over there as we can. We’re 
unlikely to use either medium as the actual voting mechanism so if some people 
don’t come over, they’ll largely just miss out on discussion but will still 
ultimately end up able to vote. I personally am going to try to make this my 
last message on the mailing list during the duration of the test. I hope that 
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Brett Cannon
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 08:31, Yury Selivanov 
wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:16 AM Steven D'Aprano 
> wrote:
> [..]
> > Well, I could announce it, but nobody would pay any attention. Why
> > should we pay attention to this announcement? No offense to Łukasz, but
> > how did he get put in charge of this?
>
> You could and everybody would pay attention.
>
> As for Łukasz and Discourse:
>
> (1) I remember asking Brett, Łukasz, Victor, Guido and few other core
> devs if we can do something to "fix" python-ideas at the previous core
> devs sprint (2 years ago). I also remember Guido saying that PEPs
> discussions on mailing lists are super hard to manage, and that he
> wishes we can do that on GitHub.  A frustration with our mailing lists
> has been a known issue for many core devs for a long time.
>
> (2) Brett has previously expressed that moderating and enforcing CoC
> on our mailing lists isn't a pleasant experience.  Discourse provides
> way more tools to make discussions more manageable.  Hopefully it will
> allow to diffuse heated discussions before anyone needs to even think
> about CoC.
>

I'll take this further and say that I've now reached burn-out and will be
taking my annual month off from volunteering starting sometime today (I
still need to write the announcement and then email all of my fellow admins
on the various lists I'm in charge of before I declare my break officially
on).

But these past three weeks have been hell for me. I now dread checking my
email because of what's going to be there. And the fact that fighting these
CoC fires on multiple mailing lists with the tools they provide have not
helped to improve my situation. The difficulty in locking down threads, the
fact that there is no shared burden on each of these mailing lists because
they are each viewed as independent entities when it comes to
administration, and the barrier for people to feel comfortable in sending
an email notifying admins when they feel a post has crossed a line has
shown me that we have a problem. So I definitely would like to try
Discourse out so we can potentially centralize and share the burden of
out-of-control threads and have it be a click of a button to report
disturbing posts so we can catch problems before they spiral out of control.

Basically I'm worried we have simply gotten too big for email.


>
> (3) We want to try Discourse now because discussions on python-ideas,
> python-dev, and python-committers became *unbearable* to many core
> devs (including myself).  Most of the time I find it inconvenient to
> even read them, left alone engage.
>

Another way to think about this is if we wait until after our governance
discussions and try this experiment the volume quite possibly won't be at a
level to stress test how the interaction on Discourse works. And while I
personally find day-to-day stuff manageable via email (but definitely not
ideal), it's when the volume spikes horribly that I typically find email
falls over the most. And I don't know about the rest  of you, but I have
not been looking forward to the governance discussions _because_ of the
volume and I am too familiar with how difficult those discussions become
difficult to manage via email.

Now maybe we will call this experiment quits in a month instead of three
because it fails that badly, but I personally would still like to give
Discourse a solid try under load to help prevent us from prematurely saying
"this is no better or worse than email, so I want to stick with what I'm
used to" because we are all human beings who (understandably) like the
familiar, especially when it comes to something we do in our spare time.


>
> (4) E-mail is clearly more convenient to *follow* the discussion to a
> lot core devs in this threads.  Discourse, hopefully, will enable many
> other core developers to *want* to follow and feel *safe* to engage.
>
> Given all the above, Łukasz *volunteered* his own time to help setup
> Discourse and help everyone to migrate to it so that we can all try
> it.  When he announced that we want to try Discourse at the sprints,
> out of all people there I remember only Barry asking questions about
> email integration.  Everybody else including Guido, Brett, Raymond,
> Victor, Mariatta, and many others were OK to try Discourse.  As I can
> see, Łukasz himself doesn't have any interests in this migration
> besides trying to make our communication more enjoyable and welcoming.
>
> Lastly, I understand everybody who likes e-mail and their e-mail
> clients.  I'm such a person myself.  Learning a completely new tool
> and using browser to access it isn't easy for me either.  But I'm
> willing to try to sacrifice some of my convenience in order to see if
> the new medium can enable us to have more polite discussions and if
> core developers who don't want to engage now become comfortable to
> join us again.
>

I also want to point out that we ask the same things of new contributors
when we ask them to learn how to manage e

Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Guido van Rossum
Let's say that Łukasz went a little overboard when he told everybody to
abandon the mailing list right now, especially in the light of the upcoming
elections (first we will vote to choose a constitution, then we'll vote
according to the rules set by that constitution on the new leadership).

That said, I am fully in favor of the current experiment where we're trying
to figure out whether Discourse can work for us. I have signed up myself
and it's pretty easy. There were a few moments where I didn't know how to
do certain things, but these were quickly resolved. I recommend everyone at
least give it a try for a few days. And the admins are pretty active right
now so if you ask for help you'll get it almost instantly. Will it work in
the long term? We don't know yet. We'll have to give it a serious try.

But the mailing list isn't dead, and those who don't want to bother with
the Discourse experiment can keep using the list. This will be an extra
burden for those who feel the need to follow every discussion -- but I
think it's worth it to ensure that nobody feels left behind. The people
running the elections, in particular, will have to make sure that important
deadlines and voting instructions are posted to the mailing list (in
addition to Discourse) to ensure that we reach everyone. I will personally
definitely follow both.

A bit off-topic: For something as important as these elections I think we
need to use voting software, rather than relying on +1 and -1 on the list
(or Discourse polls, no matter how cute they are :-), and the voting
software should also send each voter reminders and instructions for
upcoming votes -- but realistically we won't have working email addresses
for some voters, and the list might encourage them to register their email
so they'll be able to vote.

Note that there's no point in demanding that all election-related
discussion happen in the mailing list -- there's always been chatter on
other media such as IRC (which I myself never read), Twitter, and private
email. What's happening here is important enough to non-core-devs that
we'll inevitably also see outsiders debating our future in blogs, on
Facebook and on Twitter. (And, alas, also on Reddit.)

The election organizers will ensure that everyone can be aware of the
elections and where to get info about them. But staying informed as a voter
is work, and if you care about this community, you'll have to do that work.
Getting to know a new online tool isn't going to kill you.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Facundo Batista
El vie., 28 de sep. de 2018 a la(s) 18:45, Łukasz Langa
(luk...@langa.pl) escribió:

> We'll be enabling GitHub and social logins soon, ideally with adding 
> identified committers to the committers group by default. We are looking into 
> this right now. In the mean time, please request membership, an existing 
> member will add you. We'd like to migrate old discussion off of the mailing 
> lists to our Discourse instance so that search is immediately useful. We'll 
> look into that after the governance crisis is resolved.

Hello! How do I request membership to the commiters group in Discourse?

Thanks!

-- 
.Facundo

Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/
PyAr: http://www.python.org.ar/
Twitter: @facundobatista
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Eric Snow
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 09:31 Yury Selivanov  wrote:

> Given all the above, Łukasz *volunteered* his own time to help setup
> Discourse and help everyone to migrate to it so that we can all try
> it.


Yes.  Thank-you Łukasz! :)

When he announced that we want to try Discourse at the sprints,
> out of all people there I remember only Barry asking questions about
> email integration.  Everybody else including Guido, Brett, Raymond,
> Victor, Mariatta, and many others were OK to try Discourse.


I expressed reservations as well, while also recognizing the benefits.  I
also didn't consider the impact on governance discussions, nor did I think
there's be an abrupt switch nor so soon.  FWIW, I don't recall being more
than lukewarm on the idea (for the sake of the benefits), but didn't
express strong objections because I figured that, for me personally, it
would mostly be a matter of adjusting (which for me has a real cost in time
and mental energy).

As I can
> see, Łukasz himself doesn't have any interests in this migration
> besides trying to make our communication more enjoyable and welcoming.
>
> Lastly, I understand everybody who likes e-mail and their e-mail
> clients.  I'm such a person myself.  Learning a completely new tool
> and using browser to access it isn't easy for me either.  But I'm
> willing to try to sacrifice some of my convenience in order to see if
> the new medium can enable us to have more polite discussions


+1

The catch is that it's an imposition on folks that don't feel exactly the
same way.

and if
> core developers who don't want to engage now become comfortable to
> join us again.
>

That's definitely worth aiming for.  However, there are real limits to how
much technology can help what is essentially a people/social problem. :/

-eric

>
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Yury Selivanov
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:16 AM Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
[..]
> Well, I could announce it, but nobody would pay any attention. Why
> should we pay attention to this announcement? No offense to Łukasz, but
> how did he get put in charge of this?

You could and everybody would pay attention.

As for Łukasz and Discourse:

(1) I remember asking Brett, Łukasz, Victor, Guido and few other core
devs if we can do something to "fix" python-ideas at the previous core
devs sprint (2 years ago). I also remember Guido saying that PEPs
discussions on mailing lists are super hard to manage, and that he
wishes we can do that on GitHub.  A frustration with our mailing lists
has been a known issue for many core devs for a long time.

(2) Brett has previously expressed that moderating and enforcing CoC
on our mailing lists isn't a pleasant experience.  Discourse provides
way more tools to make discussions more manageable.  Hopefully it will
allow to diffuse heated discussions before anyone needs to even think
about CoC.

(3) We want to try Discource now because discussions on python-ideas,
python-dev, and python-committers became *unbearable* to many core
devs (including myself).  Most of the time I find it inconvenient to
even read them, left alone engage.

(4) E-mail is clearly more convenient to *follow* the discussion to a
lot core devs in this threads.  Discourse, hopefully, will enable many
other core developers to *want* to follow and feel *safe* to engage.

Given all the above, Łukasz *volunteered* his own time to help setup
Discourse and help everyone to migrate to it so that we can all try
it.  When he announced that we want to try Discourse at the sprints,
out of all people there I remember only Barry asking questions about
email integration.  Everybody else including Guido, Brett, Raymond,
Victor, Mariatta, and many others were OK to try Discourse.  As I can
see, Łukasz himself doesn't have any interests in this migration
besides trying to make our communication more enjoyable and welcoming.

Lastly, I understand everybody who likes e-mail and their e-mail
clients.  I'm such a person myself.  Learning a completely new tool
and using browser to access it isn't easy for me either.  But I'm
willing to try to sacrifice some of my convenience in order to see if
the new medium can enable us to have more polite discussions and if
core developers who don't want to engage now become comfortable to
join us again.

Yury
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 11:03:59AM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:

> I mentioned something similar on Discourse, but I'm going to add a
> comment here. This sort of dismissal of the validity of other people's
> long-established workflows is not very helpful.
[snip]

Thank you Paul.

Discourse may or may not be great, but this rush to change forums in the 
midst of not one but two community crises[1] seems ill-considered. Even 
if it works out in the long run, the way it has been done seems elitist 
and anti-democratic to me.

Its especially worrisome since it isn't clear to me who has the 
authority to make this decision, and on what basis. Hypothetically 
speaking, could *I* announce next week that the Discourse experiment was 
a failure and we're all going to move to a Reddit forum?

Well, I could announce it, but nobody would pay any attention. Why 
should we pay attention to this announcement? No offense to Łukasz, but 
how did he get put in charge of this?

If it had been put as "We want to change to Discourse, and intend to do 
so over the next few months. Any questions or objections?" things would 
have been better, but instead we get the change dumped in our lap as a 
fait accompli "the mailing list is dead, stop using it IMMEDIATELY, and 
go to Discourse".

That's not open, considerate or respectful. Maybe some people and 
companies treat their staff like that, but we shouldn't treat our 
volunteers the same way.



[1] Guido's retirement as BDFL; and the recent hostile, politically- 
driven bug reports and mailing list threads leading to bannings and 
potential burn-out of moderators.


-- 
Steve
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Stefan Krah
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 02:01:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > A couple of years ago http://news.individual.net/index.php (maintained
> > by FU-Berlin (university)) worked well.
> 
> Does it provide mailing-list mirrors?  It's not obvious by the description.

Ah yes, it only has comp.lang.python <==> python-list, which is useless
of course:

   ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/doc/news/fu-berlin/active


My good memories of the service were for other groups like sci.crypt.


Stefan Krah



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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Antoine Pitrou


Le 29/09/2018 à 13:55, Stefan Krah a écrit :
> On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 12:11:12PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> On the more general idea of Discourse, I'm all for experimenting as I do
>> agree with the advantages you mention.  Like Serhiy I also like my Gmane
>> workflow, but Gmane has worked less and less well recently, and admins
>> basically don't respond anymore (for example, it's become impossible to
>> start posting to new mailing-lists, since the autoresponder doesn't work
>> anymore).
> 
> A couple of years ago http://news.individual.net/index.php (maintained
> by FU-Berlin (university)) worked well.

Does it provide mailing-list mirrors?  It's not obvious by the description.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Stefan Krah
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 12:11:12PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On the more general idea of Discourse, I'm all for experimenting as I do
> agree with the advantages you mention.  Like Serhiy I also like my Gmane
> workflow, but Gmane has worked less and less well recently, and admins
> basically don't respond anymore (for example, it's become impossible to
> start posting to new mailing-lists, since the autoresponder doesn't work
> anymore).

A couple of years ago http://news.individual.net/index.php (maintained
by FU-Berlin (university)) worked well.

It's not free though (EUR 10,- per year).


Stefan Krah



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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
On 29.09.2018 11:40, Łukasz Langa wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 29, 2018, at 09:53, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>>
>> Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily 
>> impact the future of python-dev.
> 
> Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made us 
> decide to move fast on this.
> 
> Part of why we are in this mess in the first place is due to inadequate 
> moderation controls available on mailing lists and the way they invite 
> thundering herds of answers and the combinatorial explosion of posts in trees 
> of discussion. The PEP 572 process exercised this painfully well.
> 
> Discourse is a chance to address the problems that contributed to the BDFL 
> stepping down.

Hold on. The group of core developers is rather limited in size.
I would understand such a move for e.g. python-ideas, but much less
so for the committers list.

I'm not opposed to trying Discourse, but don't think the timing is
good to fork off discussions to yet another medium. This creates
more noise than necessary and diverts discussions away from what
we should really be concerned about, namely our model of decision
making for PEP discussions which don't come out with a clear
direction and a model of how to steer the overarching direction of
where Python will go in the coming decades.

>> arbitrary decision making
> ...
>> insufficiently representative group
> ...
>> without involving most of the people affected
> ...
> 
> Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two releases, 
> 20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats but I'm on 
> the phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of replacing the mailing 
> lists met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts, the group was 
> sufficiently representative and involved most of the people affected.

Ouch. So those 20 core devs got to decide for whoever else considers
themselves a core developer and at the same time fixed the very
definition of who is allowed to vote and who is not without asking
the complete set of core developers ?

The reality is that we're a remote working group, so while in person
meetings are nice and can seed new ideas, we do have to take into
account that people not present at those meetings do have a stake
in Python as core developers as well.

> I would prefer for everybody to be there, of course. Some decided against it, 
> some could not be there even though they wanted to. This is unfortunate. But 
> if you have committer unanimity in mind, that's not something that was 
> feasible regardless of the forum.

I don't think we're discussing unanimity here, but democratic
basics, i.e. who has a stake in Python, who will be heard in
discussions and who has voting rights.

On the
https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/55
posting, you summarize a discussion we've
had here on the ML, but leave out parts such as the emeritus
discussion (which AFAIR concluded in making this based on whether
a core dev wants to switch to that role rather than making this
based on PRs and Github activity), it also makes it look like
we agreed on just giving "active" core devs voting rights in the
governance discussions, which is not the case.

This is a typical situation you run into with forum postings.
The top posting often receives more attention and is seen as
summary of the whole discussion. Unless the top poster updates
the posting to reflect the outcome of the discussion below,
this can easily to misinterpretations.

In email discussions, such summaries are created after the
discussions (eg. as PEP), which avoids such misinterpretations.

To avoid the same on Discourse, we'd need to have a common
understanding to keep the top posting updated to where the
discussion is going.

Regarding the topic of voting rights: Since we have never
really had to vote on anything, the only democratic approach
is to give everyone listed as core developer voting rights.

Limiting this to an arbitrary definition of "active" is not
democratic, since the definition of "active" represents a
way to introduce representations, which we can, of course,
have, but only after having elected those representatives.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

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D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Paul Moore
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 12:06, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
>
> > On Sep 29, 2018, at 12:02, Paul Moore  wrote:
> >
> > Isn't that just a restart of the conversation that happened on this
> > list not too long ago (prompted by a question from MAL, IIRC) but
> > missing the context of that previous question, and with less
> > participants (so far)?
>
> Did you read it? I address this in the original post. I even link to the 
> committers discussion.
>
> The context is not missed but different.

I thought I did, but I've reached a point where I'm struggling to
follow the various threads and posts. At the moment, I've burned out
on trying to cope with both email (for all my non python-committers
emails)  and Discourse, so I'm struggling to follow discussions. I'll
probably stop following python-contributors for the rest of the day,
and hope I can catch up on what I missed tomorrow.

I consider that a negative indication of the usability of Discourse
for me, but I'm willing to mark it down as "early days" for now.

Apologies for misreading the mail in that thread.

For the record, and adding it here because I'm done with Discourse for
the day, I consider myself a core Python developer, and I am proud to
do so - I enjoy being able to say that. I'm *not* particularly active
in terms of commits - there are a number of reasons for that (other
commitments, struggling to keep up with the details of the CPython
workflow, ...) but it's a reality. However, I *do* contribute a lot to
discussions, as I always have, and I feel a great responsibility to do
that "as a core developer" and always try to ensure that my posts in
that context are for the benefit of the language. I would fight to
retain my right to call myself a "core Python developer", with the
same implications as anyone else (I do *not* want to call myself
"Emeritus" or "Inactive" or any of the other terms previously
mentioned for "not contributing much these days").

I would feel very disappointed and rejected if it became the case
because I didn't commit actual code, and I don't attend
conferences/sprints, that my views were ignored or under-represented.
I'm concerned already that it's becoming harder and harder to be heard
in the core dev community. I'd really like it if experiments like
Discord made it *easier* for people to be heard and represented - but
I fear that they won't, and the voices of people with real life
commitments that make working with forum software harder will be lost
(and not having a good way for people to communicate "I can't
effectively communicate via this new mechanism" is a particularly
pernicious way of losing people's input).

I'll catch up with discussions again in a day or two. For now, I need
to go and read my emails :-) (Yeah, that's a joke - I really need to
go and hang out with my family).

Paul
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Łukasz Langa

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 12:02, Paul Moore  wrote:
> 
> Isn't that just a restart of the conversation that happened on this
> list not too long ago (prompted by a question from MAL, IIRC) but
> missing the context of that previous question, and with less
> participants (so far)?

Did you read it? I address this in the original post. I even link to the 
committers discussion.

The context is not missed but different.

- Ł
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Paul Moore
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 11:44, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:24, Paul Moore  wrote:
>
> Are committers *not* active in the past two
> releases not considered? Your figures seem biased. (Was I part of that
> 30? I committed some changes in the last 2 releases. Barely anything,
> and I do *not* consider myself very active in terms of code changes,
> but how many tiers are we working with here? People who were at the
> sprints, people "active in the past 2 releases", "the rest"?
>
>
> There is discussion *just* about this here:
> https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/55

Isn't that just a restart of the conversation that happened on this
list not too long ago (prompted by a question from MAL, IIRC) but
missing the context of that previous question, and with less
participants (so far)?

Paul
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Le 29/09/2018 à 12:44, Łukasz Langa a écrit :
> 
> On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:24, Paul Moore  > wrote:
> 
>> Are committers *not* active in the past two
>> releases not considered? Your figures seem biased. (Was I part of that
>> 30? I committed some changes in the last 2 releases. Barely anything,
>> and I do *not* consider myself very active in terms of code changes,
>> but how many tiers are we working with here? People who were at the
>> sprints, people "active in the past 2 releases", "the rest"?
> 
> There is discussion *just* about this here:
> https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/55
> 

It would be nice not to mingle different concerns, though.  We may want
to have a discussion over what an "active" core developer is (and
perhaps reach an official decision if desired), but in the meantime we
should avoid using the "active / inactive" distinction when discussing
who can voice their opinion on topics such as communication tools.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Paul Moore
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 11:29, Donald Stufft  wrote:
> Discourse is perfectly searchable using Google in exactly the same way as 
> Mailman archives.

Cool.

> It also has built in search.

Somewhat less relevant - I assumed that but "most people" won't use
that, they'll use Google.
Paul
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Łukasz Langa

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:24, Paul Moore  wrote:
> 
> Are committers *not* active in the past two
> releases not considered? Your figures seem biased. (Was I part of that
> 30? I committed some changes in the last 2 releases. Barely anything,
> and I do *not* consider myself very active in terms of code changes,
> but how many tiers are we working with here? People who were at the
> sprints, people "active in the past 2 releases", "the rest"?

There is discussion *just* about this here:
https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/55

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Donald Stufft


> On Sep 29, 2018, at 6:24 AM, Paul Moore  wrote:
> 
> But at least it was *possible*. Personally I do a Google search rather
> than using my MUA, but the point is that while it's clumsy, it's known
> technology. I don't even know how I'd find a link to an old message in
> Discourse, but I assume it's not searchable via Google? Sure, I can
> learn. But how about a member of the general public (after all,
> python-committers is supposed to be restricted for posting, but
> publicly visible)?

Discourse is perfectly searchable using Google in exactly the same way as 
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Paul Moore
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 11:04, Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:53 AM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> > This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently
> > representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at
> > language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently
> > exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and
> > decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.
>
> Did you see Brett's email here, especially the last few paragraphs?
>
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-September/006100.html
>
> I don't know how the Discourse experiment will turn out, and I know it
> won't make everyone happy, but I hope it works. Because we *know* that
> what we're doing now is making people miserable and driving them away.
> The push to try Discourse may or may not be misguided, but it's not
> coming out of a few people having a whim over lunch together.

Who's "we"? I thought I was part of "we" when it came to the Python
core dev team...

> P.S.: I found that link using my usual method for finding mailing list
> archive links, which is: first I did a search in my local MUA, found
> the email I wanted, noted the date, then manually went to the mailing
> list archives and clicked through the messages around that date until
> I found it. This *sucks*.

But at least it was *possible*. Personally I do a Google search rather
than using my MUA, but the point is that while it's clumsy, it's known
technology. I don't even know how I'd find a link to an old message in
Discourse, but I assume it's not searchable via Google? Sure, I can
learn. But how about a member of the general public (after all,
python-committers is supposed to be restricted for posting, but
publicly visible)?

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 10:40, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
>
> Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two releases, 
> 20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats but I'm on 
> the phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of replacing the mailing 
> lists met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts, the group was 
> sufficiently representative and involved most of the people affected.

Hold on in return. Are committers *not* active in the past two
releases not considered? Your figures seem biased. (Was I part of that
30? I committed some changes in the last 2 releases. Barely anything,
and I do *not* consider myself very active in terms of code changes,
but how many tiers are we working with here? People who were at the
sprints, people "active in the past 2 releases", "the rest"?

I don't want to seem to accuse people of agendas - everyone's acting
in the best interests of the community - but it does feel like the
community is fragmenting at the moment :-(

Paul
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Donald Stufft


> On Sep 29, 2018, at 6:00 AM, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 29, 2018, at 10:44, Stefan Krah  wrote:
>> 
>> Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers*
>> on python-committers?
> 
> If you label it with an abstract term like this, it sounds like we just 
> formed the Python Thought Police ;-)
> 
> But think about the concrete examples of moderation and discussion flow that 
> are going to be useful:
> - ability to link between topics
> - ability to see if somebody is actively replying on something you are also 
> replying to
> - ability to edit your own post afterwards for clarity, typos, sending mishaps
> - ability to move topics around to where they belong better
> - ability to close a topic (no more replies) to indicate for example: "this 
> is about a resolved issue", "this is about an outdated version of the PEP"
> - ability to make multiple quotes in a single post (which correctly link back 
> for broader context)
> - ability to collapse out-of-band replies in a topic
> 
> I could go on. In other words, unless the conversation REALLY gets heated, I 
> doubt we will have to involve the code of conduct working group. But 
> moderation and flow control is much more than banning abuse.
> 


I’d also say that perhaps it’s less required on python-committers due to the 
invite only nature of the list (though I don’t think we’re immune here either). 
But as I understand it, one of the goals if the experiment works out well here, 
is to expand the lists that we move onto discourse to ones that are not invite 
only. In that regard, even if we never need the ability to manage inappropriate 
behavior on python-committers, we likey will at some point on the more public 
lists from time to time.

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Donald Stufft


> On Sep 29, 2018, at 6:03 AM, Paul Moore  wrote:
> 
> 1. Pull technology rather than push. The fact that email is
> *delivered* to me is a critical benefit for certain types of
> interaction, and one that's far too easily dismissed by people who
> promote pull solutions. It's baffling to me that such a fundamental
> difference is routinely treated as "minor".


FWIW, Discourse can be configured to be push or pull based on a personal level. 
Not only on a personal level, but you can control at at the category (similar 
to different lists), tag, or individual topic level. I’ve responded to you on 
Discourse in more detail, but I find the level of control quite nice in a way 
that lets you choose push or pull based upon how much you care about a 
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Le 29/09/2018 à 12:00, Łukasz Langa a écrit :
> 
>> On Sep 29, 2018, at 10:44, Stefan Krah  wrote:
>>
>> Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers*
>> on python-committers?
> 
> If you label it with an abstract term like this, it sounds like we just 
> formed the Python Thought Police ;-)
> 
> But think about the concrete examples of moderation and discussion flow that 
> are going to be useful:
> - ability to link between topics
> - ability to see if somebody is actively replying on something you are also 
> replying to
> - ability to edit your own post afterwards for clarity, typos, sending mishaps

Note this particular one *might* be a misfeature if someone edits their
posting significantly after someone else already replied.  I expect
Discourse to mention that the post was edited, but it can still be
confusing or misleading.

Now I hope this wouldn't happen for core developer discussions, but I
can see it easily happening in heated "ideas" discussions.


On the more general idea of Discourse, I'm all for experimenting as I do
agree with the advantages you mention.  Like Serhiy I also like my Gmane
workflow, but Gmane has worked less and less well recently, and admins
basically don't respond anymore (for example, it's become impossible to
start posting to new mailing-lists, since the autoresponder doesn't work
anymore).  I *am* worried, though, that the way this is being done is
gonna exclude some core developers at a critical moment where we do want
everyone included.  I would rather have had this happen after governance
is decided on.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Paul Moore
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 10:24, Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
>
> On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:51 AM, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:
> > 29.09.18 03:45, Łukasz Langa пише:
> >>>
> >>> On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:
> >>
> >> Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core
> >> developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
> >
> >
> > Yes, I do. I read all Python-related mailing list via the Gmane gate. It is
> > convenient in case of large discussions, when I can read selected branches
> > and ignore others. The great advantage of NNTP is that it provides access to
> > past discussions. I can read Python-Dev discussions back from 1999.
>
> The reason the general public has settled on web forums rather than
> mailing lists is basically that web forums give you many of the
> advantages of NNTP -- including first-class access to archives,
> replying to threads that predate your arrival, muting topics, the
> ability to skim the topic list before downloading everything, etc. --
> without the need to install specialized software. Of course it's not
> going to be the same as your favorite NNTP client that you've spent a
> decade tweaking, but it might be worth giving it a try?

I don't use NNTP, but this is simply wrong. Forums miss one of the
most significant advantages of NNTP - namely, the choice of client
enabled by having a standardised protocol.

Paul
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Paul Moore
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 09:57, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>
> On Sat., 29 Sep. 2018, 11:19 am Barry Warsaw,  wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
>>
>> > Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core 
>> > developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
>> >
>> > We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
>>
>> Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists.  Gmane, even in 
>> its current state, is fantastic.
>>
>> I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not 
>> necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current 
>> developers.  Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab 
>> syndrome.  It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit 
>> cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
>
>
> Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily 
> impact the future of python-dev.
>
> This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently 
> representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at 
> language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently 
> exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and 
> decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.

Strong +1. We've yet to see most of the governance PEPs, and now it's
looking like the people involved in debating them will be hampered by
struggling with a new communication medium as well? And the new medium
was announced as a completely out of the blue surprise to most of us?

Suggestion: We mandate that all discussion on governance must remain
on the mailing list, and discussion on Discourse will be banned. That
way, no-one who is in the process of switching and doesn't yet feel
comfortable with the new medium will feel disenfranchised.

Paul
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:53 AM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently
> representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at
> language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently
> exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and
> decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.

Did you see Brett's email here, especially the last few paragraphs?

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-September/006100.html

I don't know how the Discourse experiment will turn out, and I know it
won't make everyone happy, but I hope it works. Because we *know* that
what we're doing now is making people miserable and driving them away.
The push to try Discourse may or may not be misguided, but it's not
coming out of a few people having a whim over lunch together.

-n

P.S.: I found that link using my usual method for finding mailing list
archive links, which is: first I did a search in my local MUA, found
the email I wanted, noted the date, then manually went to the mailing
list archives and clicked through the messages around that date until
I found it. This *sucks*.

-- 
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Paul Moore
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 09:23, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
>
>
> > On Sep 29, 2018, at 08:50, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> >
> > I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
> > to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
> > core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
> > forum.
>
> I assume it's the faulty mailing list medium that made you miss my response 
> to Barry where I say that this is indeed supported ;-)
>
> See, Discourse would already save you a paragraph of worry. Why don't you try 
> it out for a while and see how it feels? I understand the power of habit but 
> I promise you that there's plenty of things that make the adjustment 
> worthwhile.

I mentioned something similar on Discourse, but I'm going to add a
comment here. This sort of dismissal of the validity of other people's
long-established workflows is not very helpful. I use email, It's not
because I've no idea how to use web forums, nor is it because I'm an
old fuddy-duddy. It suits my workflow. I use a *lot* of web forums, as
well as tools like Stack Overflow, reddit, Discord, etc. They simply
do not always suit my requirements as well as email. Some examples:

1. Pull technology rather than push. The fact that email is
*delivered* to me is a critical benefit for certain types of
interaction, and one that's far too easily dismissed by people who
promote pull solutions. It's baffling to me that such a fundamental
difference is routinely treated as "minor".
2. Email-forum interfaces are in my experience uniformly suboptimal.
I'm OK with the idea that I need to compromise and not expect people
who prefer a forum to do all the work, but nevertheless, seeing the
typical email response appear in a forum (with quoted text,
signatures, etc) is very disruptive to conversation flow.
3. Maintaining accounts for various bits of forum software is a pain
when you use as many devices as I do.
4. Browser tabs. Some of my devices are close to unusable *already*
because of the RAM usage of my browser with multiple tabs open. Is
someone going to suggest that there's a minimum hardware requirement
to participate?

Can we please consider that people have a lot of investment in email,
and being willing to try a new approach is a big commitment.
Responding to valid concerns with "just try it, you'll like it" is
pretty non-constructive.

Paul

PS I *am* trying Discourse out. I'm somewhat interested in a "better
than email" solution. So this is emphatically *not* a "do things my
way or I won't play" posting.
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Łukasz Langa

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 10:44, Stefan Krah  wrote:
> 
> Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers*
> on python-committers?

If you label it with an abstract term like this, it sounds like we just formed 
the Python Thought Police ;-)

But think about the concrete examples of moderation and discussion flow that 
are going to be useful:
- ability to link between topics
- ability to see if somebody is actively replying on something you are also 
replying to
- ability to edit your own post afterwards for clarity, typos, sending mishaps
- ability to move topics around to where they belong better
- ability to close a topic (no more replies) to indicate for example: "this is 
about a resolved issue", "this is about an outdated version of the PEP"
- ability to make multiple quotes in a single post (which correctly link back 
for broader context)
- ability to collapse out-of-band replies in a topic

I could go on. In other words, unless the conversation REALLY gets heated, I 
doubt we will have to involve the code of conduct working group. But moderation 
and flow control is much more than banning abuse.

- Ł
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Stefan Krah
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:40:02AM +0100, Łukasz Langa wrote:
> > Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily 
> > impact the future of python-dev.
> 
> Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made us 
> decide to move fast on this.

Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers*
on python-committers?


Stefan Krah




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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Łukasz Langa

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 09:53, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> 
> Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily 
> impact the future of python-dev.

Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made us 
decide to move fast on this.

Part of why we are in this mess in the first place is due to inadequate 
moderation controls available on mailing lists and the way they invite 
thundering herds of answers and the combinatorial explosion of posts in trees 
of discussion. The PEP 572 process exercised this painfully well.

Discourse is a chance to address the problems that contributed to the BDFL 
stepping down.


> arbitrary decision making
...
> insufficiently representative group
...
> without involving most of the people affected
...

Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two releases, 
20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats but I'm on the 
phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of replacing the mailing lists 
met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts, the group was sufficiently 
representative and involved most of the people affected.

I would prefer for everybody to be there, of course. Some decided against it, 
some could not be there even though they wanted to. This is unfortunate. But if 
you have committer unanimity in mind, that's not something that was feasible 
regardless of the forum.

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:51 AM, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:
> 29.09.18 03:45, Łukasz Langa пише:
>>>
>>> On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:
>>
>> Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core
>> developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
>
>
> Yes, I do. I read all Python-related mailing list via the Gmane gate. It is
> convenient in case of large discussions, when I can read selected branches
> and ignore others. The great advantage of NNTP is that it provides access to
> past discussions. I can read Python-Dev discussions back from 1999.

The reason the general public has settled on web forums rather than
mailing lists is basically that web forums give you many of the
advantages of NNTP -- including first-class access to archives,
replying to threads that predate your arrival, muting topics, the
ability to skim the topic list before downloading everything, etc. --
without the need to install specialized software. Of course it's not
going to be the same as your favorite NNTP client that you've spent a
decade tweaking, but it might be worth giving it a try?

That said, there is this:

  https://github.com/sman591/discourse-nntp-bridge

No idea how usable it is in practice, but apparently it works for at
least one person...

-n

-- 
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Stefan Krah
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 06:53:58PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote:
> On Sat., 29 Sep. 2018, 11:19 am Barry Warsaw,  wrote:
> > I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not
> > necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current
> > developers.  Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab
> > syndrome.  It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit
> > cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
> >
> 
> Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily
> impact the future of python-dev.

Indeed.


> This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently
> representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at
> language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently
> exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and
> decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.

I'm surprised how decisions are made on summits as well.

It's quite telling that already 6 core devs, most of whom have contributed
huge amounts of code, apparently have not been at that exclusive summit and
have indicated that they are uncomfortable with that decision.



Stefan Krah




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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Sat., 29 Sep. 2018, 11:19 am Barry Warsaw,  wrote:

> On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
>
> > Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of
> core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
> >
> > We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
>
> Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists.  Gmane, even in
> its current state, is fantastic.
>
> I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not
> necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current
> developers.  Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab
> syndrome.  It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit
> cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
>

Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily
impact the future of python-dev.

This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently
representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at
language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently
exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and
decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.

Regards,
Nick.



>
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Serhiy Storchaka

29.09.18 03:45, Łukasz Langa пише:

On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:

Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core 
developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.


Yes, I do. I read all Python-related mailing list via the Gmane gate. It 
is convenient in case of large discussions, when I can read selected 
branches and ignore others. The great advantage of NNTP is that it 
provides access to past discussions. I can read Python-Dev discussions 
back from 1999.



We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.


Would be nice. It would be even better if provide the own NNTP gate and 
avoid depending on third-party services.


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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Łukasz Langa

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 08:50, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> 
> I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
> to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
> core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
> forum.

I assume it's the faulty mailing list medium that made you miss my response to 
Barry where I say that this is indeed supported ;-)

See, Discourse would already save you a paragraph of worry. Why don't you try 
it out for a while and see how it feels? I understand the power of habit but I 
promise you that there's plenty of things that make the adjustment worthwhile.

- Ł
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Donald Stufft
Log into your account, go into preferences, enable Mailing List Mode.

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 3:51 AM, Robert Collins  wrote:
> 
> +1
> 
> If someone can tell me how to configure discourse to work like a
> mailing list; specifically:
> 
> - email me messsages rather than 'X new messages" nuisance-mails
> - work sanely with replies-from-mail
> 
> then I'm certainly happy to adapt.
> 
> -Rob
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 13:19, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>> 
>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
>> 
>>> Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core 
>>> developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
>>> 
>>> We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
>> 
>> Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists.  Gmane, even in 
>> its current state, is fantastic.
>> 
>> I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not 
>> necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current 
>> developers.  Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab 
>> syndrome.  It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit 
>> cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> -Barry
>> 
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread Robert Collins
+1

If someone can tell me how to configure discourse to work like a
mailing list; specifically:

 - email me messsages rather than 'X new messages" nuisance-mails
 - work sanely with replies-from-mail

then I'm certainly happy to adapt.

-Rob
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 13:19, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
>
> On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa  wrote:
>
> > Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core 
> > developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
> >
> > We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
>
> Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists.  Gmane, even in its 
> current state, is fantastic.
>
> I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not necessarily 
> at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current developers.  
> Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab syndrome.  It’s 
> an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit cavalier to shut 
> down python-committers without further discussion.
>
> Cheers,
> -Barry
>
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-29 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>> core developers?
> 
> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for 
> anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core 
> developers and non-core developers?

I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving
to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for
core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas
forum.

I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that
I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?

If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live
in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check
these just to keep up with everything.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Łukasz Langa
As you already witnessed, yes it does.

-- 
Best regards,
Łukasz Langa

> On Sep 29, 2018, at 02:21, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
>> 
>> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
>> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
>> core developers?
> 
> You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for 
> anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core 
> developers and non-core developers?
> 
> -Barry
> 
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:

> It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
> core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
> core developers?

You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for 
anyone to read.  Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core 
developers and non-core developers?

-Barry



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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa  wrote:

> Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core 
> developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
> 
> We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.

Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists.  Gmane, even in its 
current state, is fantastic.

I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not necessarily 
at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current developers.  
Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab syndrome.  It’s an 
experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit cavalier to shut down 
python-committers without further discussion.

Cheers,
-Barry



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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Łukasz Langa

> On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:
> 
> Does it support NNTP?

Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core 
developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.

We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.

- Ł


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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Łukasz Langa

> On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:55, Chris Jerdonek  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Łukasz Langa  > wrote:
> There is a user trust system where proven community members get more power in 
> time, for example to fix typos and move topics to a better category.
> 
> Will committers start out as "proven," or will we need to "re-prove" 
> ourselves to gain additional privileges? How is the trust evaluation 
> bootstrapped in Python's case, and who can confer additional trust (e.g. can 
> it be non-committers, etc)?

Regular users start at trust level 0. Committers are at trust level 3. There is 
only one more level and this is for moderators and admins of the instance. This 
models what we had on the mailing lists, what we have on GitHub, and so on. I 
hope it makes sense.


> I hope this thread about transitioning is exempt from this call to action! :)

This e-mail is specifically re-posted on Discourse so you can discuss it there, 
too :-)

- Ł


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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Chris Jerdonek
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Łukasz Langa  wrote:

> There is a user trust system where proven community members get more power
> in time, for example to fix typos and move topics to a better category.
>

Will committers start out as "proven," or will we need to "re-prove"
ourselves to gain additional privileges? How is the trust evaluation
bootstrapped in Python's case, and who can confer additional trust (e.g.
can it be non-committers, etc)?


*CALL TO ACTION*
> We'd like to heavily test this new forum. As such, I would like to ask you
> to *NOT USE* python-committers for the remainder of the year and direct
> all conversation to Discourse.
>

I hope this thread about transitioning is exempt from this call to action!
:)

--Chris


On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Łukasz Langa  wrote:

> Hello committers,
> since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:
>
> - we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
> - we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
> - go to https://discuss.python.org/ and create your account there;
> - please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the year to
> give Discourse a real shot.
>
> And now the long version.
>
> *What's the issue?*
> During the core sprint in Redmond we discussed how we discuss. The
> overwhelming feel is that we have reached the limits of what is possible
> with mailing lists. We identified e-mail as a contributor to some of the
> problems we're dealing with now. To fix more and whine less, I talked with
> everybody in Redmond about a possible replacement for the trusty mailing
> list. We identified one: Discourse.
>
> *What is it?*
> Discourse is forum software started in 2013 by Jeff Atwood, Robin Ward,
> and Sam Saffron. It's used by many large scale open source projects and
> companies, including Github Atom, Twitter Developers, Rust, Kotlin, Elixir,
> Docker, Codeacademy, Patreon, EVE Online, and Imgur. It's open source
> (Ruby, GPL2), it supports plugins and has an API.
>
> *Why is it better than e-mail?*
> It's both a Web app and a terrific mobile application. It supports regular
> flat conversational threads and collapsible replies. There is community
> moderation where users can flag inappropriate messages to notify
> moderators, moderators and authors can lock topics, move discussions
> between categories, archive things that are no longer applicable, and so on.
>
> You can edit posts, quote posts, link between posts, add rich media, code
> snippets with syntax highlighting, there's Markdown support. You can still
> use it via e-mail similarly to how GitHub notifications work. See:
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/set-up-reply-via-email-support/14003
>
> There is a user trust system where proven community members get more power
> in time, for example to fix typos and move topics to a better category.
>
> There's much more: dynamic notifications, topic summaries, emojis, spam
> blocking, single sing-on, two-factor authentication, social login support,
> and so on. Read: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-
> mailing-lists/54298.
>
> *What about Zulip?*
> Zulip is chat software which some of us find useful but its UI is proving
> to be challenging for many of us, the mobile application leaves a lot to be
> desired, and it did not end up moving discussions out of the mailing lists.
> I see Zulip as replacement for IRC whereas Discourse is replacement for
> mailing lists (or both; we'll see!).
>
> *Where do I sign up?*
> Create an account at https://discuss.python.org/. You'll recognize the
> set up as essentially mirroring the main mailing lists:
> - Committers
> - Users
> - Ideas
> There's also Discourse-specific sections:
> - Discourse Feedback (post here if things don't work like you'd like)
> - Discourse Staff (hidden category for moderators and admins of the
> instance, boring discussion)
> - Inquisition (hidden category for users with trust level 3+)
>
> As you can see, I combined python-committers and python-dev into just
> "Committers". If we find in the future that this is too limiting, we can
> always open up another category. For now though I'd like to avoid the fate
> of python-dev where there's 20k+ subscribers and we don't know who is who.
>
> *CALL TO ACTION*
> We'd like to heavily test this new forum. As such, I would like to ask you
> to *NOT USE* python-committers for the remainder of the year and direct
> all conversation to Discourse.
>
> The goal to replace the mailing lists with Discourse met unanimous support
> at the core sprint. As long as we don't identify any deal breakers in
> October, I will send an e-mail like this to python-dev on November 1st, and
> to python-list and python-ideas on December 1st. If everything goes
> smoothly, those four mailing lists will be archived by end of this year.
> Other mailing lists are welcome to port over to Discourse too.
>
> *Acknowledgements*
> Pablo and Ernest worked on setting up this instance for us (thank you
> both! 

Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Berker Peksağ
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:03 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:
> Oh, I just saw that Berker sent a message:
> "Membership Request for @committers"
> https://discuss.python.org/t/membership-request-for-committers/27/2
>
> I don't see this message in any category. Is it a private message?

If I understood it correctly, all members of @committers also marked
as owners, so you will get notifications for membership requests,
flagged posts etc.

--Berker
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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Łukasz Langa

> On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:03, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> Le ven. 28 sept. 2018 à 23:46, Łukasz Langa  a écrit :
>> - go to https://discuss.python.org/ and create your account there;
> 
> It seems like anyone can subscribe.

Yes.


> Is the Committer group reserved to core developers?

Yes, so far we just approve by hand until we get the GitHub automation going.


> If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
> core developers?

I'm confirming by looking at the e-mail with which an account was registered.


> Oh, I just saw that Berker sent a message:
> "Membership Request for @committers"
> https://discuss.python.org/t/membership-request-for-committers/27/2
> 
> I don't see this message in any category. Is it a private message?

Yes.


Now, further questions go to https://discuss.python.org/c/site-feedback 
! :>

- Ł


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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Serhiy Storchaka

29.09.18 00:45, Łukasz Langa пише:

Hello committers,
since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:

- we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
- we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
- go to https://discuss.python.org/ and create your account there;
- please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the 
year to give Discourse a real shot.


Does it support NNTP?

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Re: [python-committers] python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org

2018-09-28 Thread Victor Stinner
Le ven. 28 sept. 2018 à 23:46, Łukasz Langa  a écrit :
> - go to https://discuss.python.org/ and create your account there;

It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to
core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to
core developers?

Oh, I just saw that Berker sent a message:
"Membership Request for @committers"
https://discuss.python.org/t/membership-request-for-committers/27/2

I don't see this message in any category. Is it a private message?

Victor
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