[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Sumana Harihareswara]

Benjamin or others: could you please review 
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/19229 to "Add an optional obsolete 
header." to the 2.7 documentation today or tomorrow? Much thanks.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/6K5TB2PH5DIK3LBM6XLCLCREW5PLKNIY/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Sumana Harihareswara]

Thanks. I'm working to get https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/3 
resolved by April 17th to add an informational header to all the deep links 
within https://docs.python.org/2/* . I welcome help on the pull requests linked 
from that issue (such as https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/19229 ), and on 
the question Leonard Richardson asks there regarding 
https://github.com/python/devguide/blob/master/devcycle.rst .
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/S5Y6422FVG27LJ5PQXKJXRV567WKZTPZ/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Benjamin Peterson]

On Fri, Mar 27, 2020, at 11:49, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
> Benjamin: now that PyCon 2020 has been cancelled, are you considering 
> releasing 2.7.18 slightly earlier?

The plan is to follow the dates in PEP 373.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/AZFKC7QND67AFYO5ATY5TKOMQV3GF37X/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Sumana Harihareswara]

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I'm talking about the 
"switch to Python 3" banner that we need to add per discussion in 
https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/3 . I am pretty sure 
it's not too late for that.

-Sumana

On 3/29/20 10:23 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:

IMHO it's too late to touch the Python 2.7 documentation.

Victor

Le dim. 29 mars 2020 à 16:01, Sumana Harihareswara  a écrit 
:


On 3/27/20 12:49 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:

Benjamin: now that PyCon 2020 has been cancelled, are you considering
releasing 2.7.18 slightly earlier?



(I ask because: before you do that, I would like to submit some changes
to the documentation for the 2.7 branch, to indicate to users that they
ought to switch to Python 3.)

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/JDEX5KGNH7EY7KA2S4EZZBS4Q3BX3KHI/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Victor Stinner]

IMHO it's too late to touch the Python 2.7 documentation.

Victor

Le dim. 29 mars 2020 à 16:01, Sumana Harihareswara  a écrit 
:
>
> On 3/27/20 12:49 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
> > Benjamin: now that PyCon 2020 has been cancelled, are you considering
> > releasing 2.7.18 slightly earlier?
>
>
> (I ask because: before you do that, I would like to submit some changes
> to the documentation for the 2.7 branch, to indicate to users that they
> ought to switch to Python 3.)
>
>
> Sumana Harihareswara
> Changeset Consulting
> https://changeset.nyc
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BH34OE3TBPF32V4QPGQRMQ5NXGO52EN7/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/



-- 
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/XLQBP6BTRQY65KQHVDLTTMATII2OX7ZM/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Sumana Harihareswara]

On 3/27/20 12:49 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
Benjamin: now that PyCon 2020 has been cancelled, are you considering 
releasing 2.7.18 slightly earlier?



(I ask because: before you do that, I would like to submit some changes 
to the documentation for the 2.7 branch, to indicate to users that they 
ought to switch to Python 3.)



Sumana Harihareswara
Changeset Consulting
https://changeset.nyc
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BH34OE3TBPF32V4QPGQRMQ5NXGO52EN7/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Sumana Harihareswara]

Benjamin: now that PyCon 2020 has been cancelled, are you considering 
releasing 2.7.18 slightly earlier?

--
Sumana Harihareswara
Changeset Consulting
https://changeset.nyc
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MXUUU5FBELEXNCTXLIDP633XTIRXG6W4/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Sumana Harihareswara]

Per 
https://discuss.python.org/t/petition-abandon-plans-to-ship-a-2-7-18-in-april/2946/ 
I have now:


* written a PR to update PEP 373 to mark that the code freeze happened 
on 1 January https://github.com/python/peps/pull/1304
* updated the Python 3 Q 
http://python-notes.curiousefficiency.org/en/latest/python3/questions_and_answers.html#when-is-the-last-release-of-python-2-7-coming-out 
similarly 
https://bitbucket.org/ncoghlan/misc/pull-requests/21/update-python-3-q-a-to-reflect-that-sunset/diff 

* added a "what happens now?" section to 
https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/



--
Sumana Harihareswara
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BQUVV2RUHFGMIBWWTTQQJS2VUSVV4OMS/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Ned Deily]

On Sep 26, 2019, at 14:50, Ethan Furman  wrote:
> 
> On 09/26/2019 09:28 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:
>> Steve Dower wrote:
> 
>>> The biggest thing that will change is that all our CI systems will stop
>>> testing 2.7, and there's a good chance we'll lock (or delete?) the 2.7
>>> branch from our repo.
>> A final tag of the branch will be made and then the branch will be deleted 
>> (it's how we handle all EOL versions).
> 
> Will there be a time delay between the final tagging and the deletion so any 
> who would like the repo in its final state can clone it at that point?

Nothing will be lost, there's no need for a time delay.

As we do for every release, there will be a tag created for the final 2.7 
release of the form "v2.7.xx".  That allows you to checkout the state of any 
release, including the final 2.7 release.  At end-of-life time, we will also 
create a final "2.7" tag that reflects the final state of the 2.7, in case 
anything else was checked in following that last release.  There will no longer 
be a "2.7" branch in the repo so it won't be possible to merge 2.7 changes back 
into the central repo.  The 2.7 tag will act as sort of a read-only branch, 
i.e. you can still do:

git checkout 2.7

to access it.  If you want, you could create a local branch in your repo.

See:

https://devguide.python.org/devcycle/#end-of-life-branches

--
  Ned Deily
  n...@python.org -- []
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/WVRXP5AVIOUUHQH2ZZ4RLXYRPOJWFFNT/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 5:04 AM Ethan Furman  wrote:
>
> On 09/26/2019 09:28 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:
> > Steve Dower wrote:
>
> >> The biggest thing that will change is that all our CI systems will stop
> >> testing 2.7, and there's a good chance we'll lock (or delete?) the 2.7
> >> branch from our repo.
> >
> > A final tag of the branch will be made and then the branch will be deleted 
> > (it's how we handle all EOL versions).
>
> Will there be a time delay between the final tagging and the deletion so any 
> who would like the repo in its final state can clone it at that point?
>

If I've understood "tag" correctly, the commits should all remain in
the repository for all time, so you should indeed be able to view it
as of EOL. You can "git checkout v2.7.18" (or whatever the number is)
after cloning the repository.

ChrisA
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/7NWOFQBBOSL2GNN6RHVRBUPLUE7ZH3ML/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Zachary Ware]

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:58 PM Ethan Furman  wrote:
> Will there be a time delay between the final tagging and the deletion so any 
> who would like the repo in its final state can clone it at that point?

No need; you can try this with any currently closed branch like 3.3:
`git checkout -B 3.3 refs/tags/3.3` will check out a local `3.3`
branch at the tag (resetting the `3.3` local branch if it already
existed).  The same will work for 2.7 after the branch is deleted.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/CUMLWTRVXDJJCORQ55JQEQANGNZVWI3P/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Ethan Furman]

On 09/26/2019 09:28 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

Steve Dower wrote:



The biggest thing that will change is that all our CI systems will stop
testing 2.7, and there's a good chance we'll lock (or delete?) the 2.7
branch from our repo.


A final tag of the branch will be made and then the branch will be deleted 
(it's how we handle all EOL versions).


Will there be a time delay between the final tagging and the deletion so any 
who would like the repo in its final state can clone it at that point?

--
~Ethan~
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/FRDWDPVGEIDSTVJAX2M7Q5RFOQE4KMTH/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Brett Cannon]

Steve Dower wrote:
> On 25Sep2019 2140, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 25, 2019, at 17:25, Rob Cliffe via
> > Python-Dev wrote:
> > I
> > additionally share the bemusement of some other commentators on this thread 
> > to the idea of
> > Python 2 "support", which is not something ever promised to Python 2 (or 3) 
> > users by
> > CPython core developers. Essentially, next year, we're changing our 
> > "support" policy of
> > Python 2.7 from "none, but we're nice people" to "none".
> > I understand, but I hope that if a clear bug (perhaps especially a
> > security bug) is found in Python 2.7 (perhaps one that is also in Python
> > 3.x) the core devs will not be in principle opposed to fixing it.  At
> > least if one of them (or someone else sufficiently qualified) is
> > prepared to do the work.  Especially as you're "essentially" (and you
> > ARE :-) -:) ) "such nice people".
> > Before 2.7.18, sure. After that, in principle and practice, we're
> > opposed.
> > The biggest thing that will change is that all our CI systems will stop 
> testing 2.7, and there's a good chance we'll lock (or delete?) the 2.7 
> branch from our repo.

A final tag of the branch will be made and then the branch will be deleted 
(it's how we handle all EOL versions).

-Brett

> So you may find someone nice enough (or willing enough to accept money 
> (or willing to accept enough money)) to fix an issue, but the fix will 
> have to go somewhere other than the main repo and someone else will have 
> to verify and release it.
> Cheers,
> Steve
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/XE3KI5Y7YSUQAUKWJRXHRBXBSUMVDCGR/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Steve Dower]

On 25Sep2019 2140, Benjamin Peterson wrote:



On Wed, Sep 25, 2019, at 17:25, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev wrote:

I additionally share the bemusement of some other commentators on this thread to the idea of Python 2 
"support", which is not something ever promised to Python 2 (or 3) users by CPython core developers. 
Essentially, next year, we're changing our "support" policy of Python 2.7 from "none, but we're nice 
people" to "none".

I understand, but I hope that if a clear bug (perhaps especially a
security bug) is found in Python 2.7 (perhaps one that is also in Python
3.x) the core devs will not be in principle opposed to fixing it.  At
least if one of them (or someone else sufficiently qualified) is
prepared to do the work.  Especially as you're "essentially" (and you
ARE :-) -:) ) "such nice people".


Before 2.7.18, sure. After that, in principle and practice, we're opposed.


The biggest thing that will change is that all our CI systems will stop 
testing 2.7, and there's a good chance we'll lock (or delete?) the 2.7 
branch from our repo.


So you may find someone nice enough (or willing enough to accept money 
(or willing to accept enough money)) to fix an issue, but the fix will 
have to go somewhere other than the main repo and someone else will have 
to verify and release it.


Cheers,
Steve
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/6DINL4MYBCHEVVA6GV44EFJJG2SJ6Y6G/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Benjamin Peterson]

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019, at 17:25, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev wrote:
> > I additionally share the bemusement of some other commentators on this 
> > thread to the idea of Python 2 "support", which is not something ever 
> > promised to Python 2 (or 3) users by CPython core developers. Essentially, 
> > next year, we're changing our "support" policy of Python 2.7 from "none, 
> > but we're nice people" to "none".
> I understand, but I hope that if a clear bug (perhaps especially a 
> security bug) is found in Python 2.7 (perhaps one that is also in Python 
> 3.x) the core devs will not be in principle opposed to fixing it.  At 
> least if one of them (or someone else sufficiently qualified) is 
> prepared to do the work.  Especially as you're "essentially" (and you 
> ARE :-) -:) ) "such nice people".

Before 2.7.18, sure. After that, in principle and practice, we're opposed.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/OA45RAVTXWE35JE3QKY2IXHYE7MQU4KP/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev]

On 24/09/2019 04:21:45, Benjamin Peterson wrote:


On Fri, Sep 13, 2019, at 18:18, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:

Hi. I've joined python-dev to participate in this thread (I don't have
email delivery turned on; I'll be checking back via the web).

sorry :)


Benjamin, I am sorry that I didn't check in with you, and assumed that
January 1, 2020 would be the the date of the final 2.7 point release.
(My understanding was based on Guido's EOL announcement from March last
year https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2018-March/152348.html
   -- I should have also gotten a review from you and not just the
Steering Council in https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/14
.) I'm going to continue this discussion here so I can make sure I
understand the policy decision properly, and then (if necessary) update
the FAQ.

Based on what I've read here and what I see in
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#maintenance-releases , it
sounds like the timeline will go something like:

* 2019-10-19: release of 2.7.17 October
* October, November, and December 2019: developers continue to fix
issues in 2.7
* 2020-01-01: code freeze for 2.7.18 release candidate
* January and February 2020: flexibility to fix any issues introduced
since the 2.7.17 release, but no other bugs or security issues, and no
3.x backports

Security issues will probably be fixed. At least, I wouldn't in abstract find 
that objectionable assuming someone wants to write a patch.


* ~2020-04-02: release candidate for 2.7.18
* 2020-04-17: final 2.7.18 release

I don't know if these will be the exact dates but probably close.


Is this right? (If so, I can submit an update to PEP 373.)

This is a little more complicated than I had anticipated when
communicating out about the sunsetting. But I can find a way either to
concisely communicate this, or to point to a user-friendly explanation
elsewhere.

A succinct statement of the relevant information is: "After 10 years, the core 
developers of CPython are stopping development on the 2.7.x line. The last release will 
be in April 2020." If it's easier to communicate that the sunset of CPython 2 is 
April 2020, that seems fine with me.

January 1 was a somewhat arbitrary date we put in the PEP when 2020 still 
seemed like a long way off but people wanted to know whether 2.7 would be 
released until 2021 or not. I was never going to make a 2.7 release literally 
on January 1. (Fighting with GPG would make short work of New Year's 
resolutions pertaining to temperance and strong language.) I failed to 
anticipate how strongly people would latch onto that exact moment in time as 
the end of Python 2.

I additionally share the bemusement of some other commentators on this thread to the idea of Python 2 
"support", which is not something ever promised to Python 2 (or 3) users by CPython core developers. 
Essentially, next year, we're changing our "support" policy of Python 2.7 from "none, but we're nice 
people" to "none".
I understand, but I hope that if a clear bug (perhaps especially a 
security bug) is found in Python 2.7 (perhaps one that is also in Python 
3.x) the core devs will not be in principle opposed to fixing it.  At 
least if one of them (or someone else sufficiently qualified) is 
prepared to do the work.  Especially as you're "essentially" (and you 
ARE :-) -:) ) "such nice people".

Best wishes
Rob Cliffe



Thanks.

--
Sumana Harihareswara
Changeset Consulting
https://changeset.nyc
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MXCGMTXDY7BX6JBBU36O5YFRWWBB3NQE/


___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/ETOBPFVKKS5ZBIUAYLOBXFXPOZB7A357/

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com



___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KQU7AQ5FZSOX5Z2HMX7LELJYUZTKMFXO/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Benjamin Peterson]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, at 19:23, Kyle Stanley wrote:
> Benjamin, what are you thoughts on usage of the "needs backport to 2.7" 
> label? For most of the PRs I've reviewed I tend to avoid adding it 
> myself, but I've seen it used periodically. It seems to be used rather 
> infrequently 
> (https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=is%3Apr+label%3A%22needs+backport+to+2.7%22+is%3Amerged),
>  but I'm not entirely clear on when it should be used, particularly for 
> documentation-related PRs.
> 
> Also, is there an official date when the label will be removed? 
> Removing the backport label seems to generally be at the discretion of 
> the release manager for that version, but I was curious as to whether 
> it would be removed on the sunset date or prior to then. Without the 
> label, backport PRs can still be opened manually of course, but 
> removing it would probably help to discourage 2.7 backports. 

I don't think the 2.7 backport label is currently overused. The 2.7 branch is 
already is a fairly quiet state. We've had less than 15 commits to 2.7 this 
month despite there being a week of more than 20 core developers intensely 
hacking on CPython. The label drives the automated backport tooling. There's no 
need to impede legitimate 2.7 backports.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/74TRPU6SE2B7WKBRJSEB4CNDFRMX33XC/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Benjamin Peterson]

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019, at 18:18, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
> Hi. I've joined python-dev to participate in this thread (I don't have 
> email delivery turned on; I'll be checking back via the web).

sorry :)

> 
> Benjamin, I am sorry that I didn't check in with you, and assumed that 
> January 1, 2020 would be the the date of the final 2.7 point release. 
> (My understanding was based on Guido's EOL announcement from March last 
> year https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2018-March/152348.html 
>   -- I should have also gotten a review from you and not just the 
> Steering Council in https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/14 
> .) I'm going to continue this discussion here so I can make sure I 
> understand the policy decision properly, and then (if necessary) update 
> the FAQ.
> 
> Based on what I've read here and what I see in 
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#maintenance-releases , it 
> sounds like the timeline will go something like:
> 
> * 2019-10-19: release of 2.7.17 October
> * October, November, and December 2019: developers continue to fix 
> issues in 2.7
> * 2020-01-01: code freeze for 2.7.18 release candidate
> * January and February 2020: flexibility to fix any issues introduced 
> since the 2.7.17 release, but no other bugs or security issues, and no 
> 3.x backports

Security issues will probably be fixed. At least, I wouldn't in abstract find 
that objectionable assuming someone wants to write a patch.

> * ~2020-04-02: release candidate for 2.7.18
> * 2020-04-17: final 2.7.18 release

I don't know if these will be the exact dates but probably close.

> 
> Is this right? (If so, I can submit an update to PEP 373.)
> 
> This is a little more complicated than I had anticipated when 
> communicating out about the sunsetting. But I can find a way either to 
> concisely communicate this, or to point to a user-friendly explanation 
> elsewhere.

A succinct statement of the relevant information is: "After 10 years, the core 
developers of CPython are stopping development on the 2.7.x line. The last 
release will be in April 2020." If it's easier to communicate that the sunset 
of CPython 2 is April 2020, that seems fine with me.

January 1 was a somewhat arbitrary date we put in the PEP when 2020 still 
seemed like a long way off but people wanted to know whether 2.7 would be 
released until 2021 or not. I was never going to make a 2.7 release literally 
on January 1. (Fighting with GPG would make short work of New Year's 
resolutions pertaining to temperance and strong language.) I failed to 
anticipate how strongly people would latch onto that exact moment in time as 
the end of Python 2.

I additionally share the bemusement of some other commentators on this thread 
to the idea of Python 2 "support", which is not something ever promised to 
Python 2 (or 3) users by CPython core developers. Essentially, next year, we're 
changing our "support" policy of Python 2.7 from "none, but we're nice people" 
to "none".

> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Sumana Harihareswara
> Changeset Consulting
> https://changeset.nyc
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MXCGMTXDY7BX6JBBU36O5YFRWWBB3NQE/
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/ETOBPFVKKS5ZBIUAYLOBXFXPOZB7A357/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Brett Cannon]

Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Ned Batchelder schrieb am 10.09.19 um 16:54:
> > this seems confusing to me
> > What does the "official EOL date" mean if there's a release in April?

It means we should all consider Python 2.7 EOL'ed come January 1 and Benjamin 
will make a release when it's convenient, and he just happens to know ahead of 
time that convenient for him is PyCon US 2020. :)

> > Also, what day in April? For example, planning the release for the 1st
> could possibly add further to the confusion.

PyCon US 2020 is mid-April, so if the release is going to coincide with the 
conference then it won't be at the beginning of the month.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UW4N3TZZNWGKZQ7HPBSMQNFAAXL2TS2H/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Brett Cannon]

Chris Barker wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 10:39 PM Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
> > I agree.  The thread title is a bit extreme.  There
> > will be a long
> > twilight.
> > Metaphorically that is correct, but at
> > the same time there are
> > things like https://pythonclock.org  which
> > 
> > is one person's very unofficial site.  It interprets and references
> > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#maintenance-releases
> > I can't see a way to contact the owner of that site (is it Guido??),

It is not Guido (and it isn't me either, but I do know who the owner is).
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/3SHCF44UMZVRHEV6HMNUVFZNESAXYUP7/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Brett Cannon]

Kyle Stanley wrote:
> Benjamin, what are you thoughts on usage of the "needs backport to 2.7"
> label? For most of the PRs I've reviewed I tend to avoid adding it myself,
> but I've seen it used periodically. It seems to be used rather infrequently
> (
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=is%3Apr+label%3A%22needs+backport+...),
> but I'm not entirely clear on when it should be used, particularly for
> documentation-related PRs.

It should be used where appropriate. ;)

It's a per-case thing where you have to balance backwards-compatibility with 
whatever you're changing. Plus you have to have someone doing the PR review who 
cares enough to deal with the (good) chance there will be a merge conflict in 
the backport.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MMJJOEUBWWAJNQMDMBP7L77QR6VVBEGK/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Paul Moore]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 18:52, Chris Barker via Python-Dev
 wrote:
> it would be good to be clear what EXACTLY "support stops" means.

Generally, when people ask questions like this, I struggle, because
it's not altogether clear to me what they think they mean in the first
place by the "support" that is getting dropped. Python is entirely
volunteer supported, and no-one has any sort of formal agreement here,
so what exactly is stopping on such a precise date?

Personally, I will take 1 Jan 2020 as being the date on which I can
stop feeling guilty about not caring about Python 2, and the date from
which, if I merge a change to Python, I don't have to ask anyone
"should this be backported to 2.7" but can just ignore the
possibility. I doubt that clarifies anything for anyone, though :-)

Paul
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/3WW3JUTDZ6JVAKJPIDIJ4UBNKL2PD3DT/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Kyle Stanley]

Benjamin, what are you thoughts on usage of the "needs backport to 2.7"
label? For most of the PRs I've reviewed I tend to avoid adding it myself,
but I've seen it used periodically. It seems to be used rather infrequently
(
https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=is%3Apr+label%3A%22needs+backport+to+2.7%22+is%3Amerged),
but I'm not entirely clear on when it should be used, particularly for
documentation-related PRs.

Also, is there an official date when the label will be removed? Removing
the backport label seems to generally be at the discretion of the release
manager for that version, but I was curious as to whether it would be
removed on the sunset date or prior to then. Without the label, backport
PRs can still be opened manually of course, but removing it would probably
help to discourage 2.7 backports.

On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:38 AM Benjamin Peterson 
wrote:

> Hi all,
> It's finally time to schedule the last releases in Python 2's life. There
> will be two more releases of Python 2.7: Python 2.7.17 and Python 2.7.18.
>
> Python 2.7.17 release candidate 1 will happen on October 5th followed by
> the final release on October 19th.
>
> I'm going to time Python 2.7.18 to coincide with PyCon 2020 in April, so
> attendees can enjoy some collective catharsis. We'll still say January 1st
> is the official EOL date.
>
> Thanks to Sumana Harihareswara, there's now a FAQ about the Python 2
> sunset on the website: https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/
>
> Regards,
> Benjamin
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/APWHFYQDKNVYQAK3HZMBGQIZHAVRHCV2/
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/NYIVL47NMGMSWTF5FQCZQF2ZWPA6I2SH/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Terry Reedy]

On 9/18/2019 1:45 PM, Chris Barker via Python-Dev wrote:

I'm just echoing (and agreeing with) Peter here -- there is a specific 
date in the PEP (January 1 2020), and that has been adopted by 
pythonclock and others, so it would be good to be clear what EXACTLY 
"support stops" means.


In terms of implementation, I don't think all details are decided yet, 
so that 'EXACTLY' does not yet exist, and may not until after the fact. 
But I already said what it means for users. If you want a change, ask 
for it now.  Even late December may be too late.


For coredevs, I believe it means that routine patching stops and we 
should act as if the 2.7 branch were in the release candidate stage, 
where patches go through the release manager.


To put is another way, support is already tapering off.  And most of us 
who have not already washed out hands of 2.7 will on Jan 1.


And I misspoke, it would be "date on when the last patch would 
potentially be considered" And if that's not the case, then why have a 
date other than the date of the last release ??


I think you are missing the distinction between routine patches, which 
any committer can make, and which should stop about Jan 1, and release 
candidate patches, more or less restricted to the release manager.  I 
expect his last patch will be just before release, follows by closing 
2.7 just after.  But I don't care about the details and neither should 
most anyone else.



--
Terry Jan Reedy
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/TRKGOHUNNMLPIOFGB3BHTXPNLS6LBKIB/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Chris Barker via Python-Dev]

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 10:39 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:

> I agree.  The thread title is a bit extreme.  There will be a long
> twilight.
>
> > Metaphorically that is correct, but at the same time there are
> > things like https://pythonclock.org  which
>
> is one person's very unofficial site.  It interprets and references
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#maintenance-releases


I can't see a way to contact the owner of that site (is it Guido??), but if
you are reading this list, maybe a sunset metaphor would be nice.

I like that: when you are watching a sunset, you can look out at the
horizon, hoping to see the green flash, and there is a clear moment when
the sun fully drops below the horizon -- but it doesn't suddenly get dark
:-)

> Yes, it would, but if we are emphasizing that hard date,
>
> But we core developers are not, other than what the PEP says:
> "Support officially stops January 1 2020, but the final release will
> occur after that date.  Actually, support has already been tapering off
> for over 3 or 4 years and 2.7 patches are now a slow dribble.  What is
> ending is free build and security from us.
>
> > we need to  emphasise that it is a hard date on when the last patch
> > would  potentially be applied,
>
> Not really your concern.


I'm just echoing (and agreeing with) Peter here -- there is a specific date
in the PEP (January 1 2020), and that has been adopted by pythonclock and
others, so it would be good to be clear what EXACTLY "support stops" means.

And I misspoke, it would be "date on when the last patch would potentially
be considered" And if that's not the case, then why have a date other than
the date of the last release ??

Personally, I have no angst over a few months here or there, but apparently
some people do.

-CHB


-- 

Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division
NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959   voice
7600 Sand Point Way NE   (206) 526-6329   fax
Seattle, WA  98115   (206) 526-6317   main reception

chris.bar...@noaa.gov
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/EMDC6YMASGWTXJJZC6VLNCGKM6FONYHG/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Terry Reedy]

On 9/17/2019 6:19 PM, Chris Barker via Python-Dev wrote:

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:06 PM Peter Wang > wrote:


On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 5:55 PM Chris Barker via Python-Dev
mailto:python-dev@python.org>> wrote:

Regardless of the date of the final release, no one's Python2
install will stop working, and people will still be able to
download and install that last release.
So I like the metaphor -- it's being "sunset" -- there will be a
long dusk .. a month or tow makes no difference to anyone's
workflow.


I agree.  The thread title is a bit extreme.  There will be a long twilight.


Metaphorically that is correct, but at the same time there are
things like https://pythonclock.org  which


is one person's very unofficial site.  It interprets and references
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#maintenance-releases


communicate a certain... precision and finality to the Dec 31, 2019
date.  


That is the nature of countdown clocks ;-).
 > I agree with Ned that as a community, we should have a

unified messaging about this.


For that, go to https://python3statement.org/, which more than 120 
groups signed so far.  I am impressed.  That site also (appropriately) 
references the PEP.  Note that it does NOT have a uniform timeline. 
Rather, it is a collective agreement to move on that gives everyone 
permission to do so at a somewhat varying (but not indefinitely delayed) 
pace.



 I already anticipate a final round of
teeth-gnashing as the date draws near, so it would be good to
minimize the room for misunderstandings.


Maybe, maybe not.  As you said, 2.7 is not going to be unreleased.  At 
least some major users that care have or are in the process of moving to 
3.x.  JPMorgan, for instance, already uses 3.x for new code and expects 
to finish moving their 2 million lines within a year.


I think the PEP is clear enough.  Anyone who wants anything changed in 
2.7 should say so NOW.  About a week ago someone asked for a specific 
bugfix to be backported and I believe it has or will be done.  But this 
has become rather rare.


Anything with any significant risk should be in the 2.7.17 October 
release.  I expect that Benjamin will try to clear any existing backlog 
before that release.



Yes, it would, but if we are emphasizing that hard date,


But we core developers are not, other than what the PEP says:
"Support officially stops January 1 2020, but the final release will 
occur after that date.  Actually, support has already been tapering off 
for over 3 or 4 years and 2.7 patches are now a slow dribble.  What is 
ending is free build and security from us.



we need to  emphasise that it is a hard date on when the last patch
would  potentially be applied,


Not really your concern. Coredev release managers are in charge of the 
details of making an official PSF release.  This does not change with 
this one.  Benjamin Peterson, at least, will apply patches as he sees 
fit until the release.  I expect that he will say more about the 
shutdown process when he decides.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UDO4RAY6XOYGKHAHR3XFGTKXYLQSUO65/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Chris Barker via Python-Dev]

Peter, I think that went just to me, which I suspect was not what you
intended, so I've brought it back on the list:

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 12:06 PM Peter Wang  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 5:55 PM Chris Barker via Python-Dev <
> python-dev@python.org> wrote:
>
>> Regardless of the date of the final release, no one's Python2 install
>> will stop working, and people will still be able to download and install
>> that last release.
>> So I like the metaphor -- it's being "sunset" -- there will be a long
>> dusk .. a month or tow makes no difference to anyone's workflow.
>>
>
> Metaphorically that is correct, but at the same time there are things like
> https://pythonclock.org which communicate a certain... precision and
> finality to the Dec 31, 2019 date.  I agree with Ned that as a community,
> we should have a unified messaging about this.  I already anticipate a
> final round of teeth-gnashing as the date draws near, so it would be good
> to minimize the room for misunderstandings.
>

Yes, it would, but if we are emphasizing that hard date, we need to
emphasise that it is a hard date on when the last patch would potentially
be applied, and other than that, there is no discontinuity ...

-CHB



>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>


-- 

Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division
NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959   voice
7600 Sand Point Way NE   (206) 526-6329   fax
Seattle, WA  98115   (206) 526-6317   main reception

chris.bar...@noaa.gov
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/PLQ2SUAUJ5MPEAWY54Z5A6BVH5F7GRTB/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Chris Barker via Python-Dev]

Regardless of the date of the final release, no one's Python2 install will
stop working, and people will still be able to download and install that
last release.

So I like the metaphor -- it's being "sunset" -- there will be a long dusk
.. a month or tow makes no difference to anyone's workflow.

-CHB





On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 6:39 PM Sumana Harihareswara 
wrote:

> Hi. I've joined python-dev to participate in this thread (I don't have
> email delivery turned on; I'll be checking back via the web).
>
> Benjamin, I am sorry that I didn't check in with you, and assumed that
> January 1, 2020 would be the the date of the final 2.7 point release.
> (My understanding was based on Guido's EOL announcement from March last
> year https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2018-March/152348.html
>   -- I should have also gotten a review from you and not just the
> Steering Council in https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/14
> .) I'm going to continue this discussion here so I can make sure I
> understand the policy decision properly, and then (if necessary) update
> the FAQ.
>
> Based on what I've read here and what I see in
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#maintenance-releases , it
> sounds like the timeline will go something like:
>
> * 2019-10-19: release of 2.7.17 October
> * October, November, and December 2019: developers continue to fix
> issues in 2.7
> * 2020-01-01: code freeze for 2.7.18 release candidate
> * January and February 2020: flexibility to fix any issues introduced
> since the 2.7.17 release, but no other bugs or security issues, and no
> 3.x backports
> * ~2020-04-02: release candidate for 2.7.18
> * 2020-04-17: final 2.7.18 release
>
> Is this right? (If so, I can submit an update to PEP 373.)
>
> This is a little more complicated than I had anticipated when
> communicating out about the sunsetting. But I can find a way either to
> concisely communicate this, or to point to a user-friendly explanation
> elsewhere.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Sumana Harihareswara
> Changeset Consulting
> https://changeset.nyc
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MXCGMTXDY7BX6JBBU36O5YFRWWBB3NQE/
>


-- 

Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division
NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959   voice
7600 Sand Point Way NE   (206) 526-6329   fax
Seattle, WA  98115   (206) 526-6317   main reception

chris.bar...@noaa.gov
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/QM5B2SH5URWHF4WEWJ33KM4CXZA4QMFB/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Sumana Harihareswara]

Hi. I've joined python-dev to participate in this thread (I don't have 
email delivery turned on; I'll be checking back via the web).


Benjamin, I am sorry that I didn't check in with you, and assumed that 
January 1, 2020 would be the the date of the final 2.7 point release. 
(My understanding was based on Guido's EOL announcement from March last 
year https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2018-March/152348.html 
 -- I should have also gotten a review from you and not just the 
Steering Council in https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/14 
.) I'm going to continue this discussion here so I can make sure I 
understand the policy decision properly, and then (if necessary) update 
the FAQ.


Based on what I've read here and what I see in 
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#maintenance-releases , it 
sounds like the timeline will go something like:


* 2019-10-19: release of 2.7.17 October
* October, November, and December 2019: developers continue to fix 
issues in 2.7

* 2020-01-01: code freeze for 2.7.18 release candidate
* January and February 2020: flexibility to fix any issues introduced 
since the 2.7.17 release, but no other bugs or security issues, and no 
3.x backports

* ~2020-04-02: release candidate for 2.7.18
* 2020-04-17: final 2.7.18 release

Is this right? (If so, I can submit an update to PEP 373.)

This is a little more complicated than I had anticipated when 
communicating out about the sunsetting. But I can find a way either to 
concisely communicate this, or to point to a user-friendly explanation 
elsewhere.


Thanks.

--
Sumana Harihareswara
Changeset Consulting
https://changeset.nyc
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MXCGMTXDY7BX6JBBU36O5YFRWWBB3NQE/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Eric V. Smith]

I think Ned's concerns are real, and the sunset-python-2 page could use 
some wordsmithing to explain that even though support ends on Jan 1, 
there will be a wrap-up release some time after that, but it won't 
incorporate any changes made or proposed after Jan 1.


Another place where that document could be improved is in clarifying the 
different uses of the word "volunteers". For me, that's the most 
confusing part as I was reading it. As near as I can tell, these are 
different groups, or at least largely disjoint:


 * "We are volunteers who make and take care of the Python programming
   language"
 * "most volunteers will not help fix them"
 * "If you need free help from volunteers"

Unfortunately I'm heading out of town and don't have time to help clean 
this up.


Eric

On 9/10/2019 5:09 PM, Jacqueline Kazil wrote:
*RE: Ned's comments -- *That is the same reaction I had when I read 
through this thread.


*RE: Tal's comment - *I could see this making sense as an explanation.

*RE: Guido's comment*
This makes me think that April 2020 is not a thing. And if Ben is 
supporting solo, then can people email him directly with issues? 


*On a serious note...*
I would like clarification, so we (dev community and PSF) have a 
shared understanding of the direction and are sending the same messaging.


-Jackie
PSF Board of Directors

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:20 PM Tal Einat > wrote:


On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 10:03 PM Ned Batchelder
mailto:n...@nedbatchelder.com>> wrote:
>
> I'm not looking forward to answering questions from the public
about why
> the PSF is writing dire and specific warnings like "We have
decided that
> January 1, 2020, will be the day that we sunset Python 2," while the
> core devs are planning a release four months after that. It
won't help
> Python's credibility, and may convince some people that they
don't have
> to take the date seriously..

To me it seems pretty clear: On Jan 1st 2020, the 2.7.x branch will no
longer receive fixes for any *new* bugs or security issues, nor other
improvements. I would expect that be the time of the code freeze for
the first release candidate, not the time of the final release. While
we will still fix issues *introduced in 2.7.18 since 2.7.17* before
the final 2.7.18 release, we won't address any other bugs or security
issues and won't backport anything *new* from 3.x. (I may have some
details not exactly correct here, but I hope the gist is correct.)

I'm sure the wording could be improved, but generally this seems
entirely reasonable to me.

- Tal Einat
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org

To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org

https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KSU2A5SDGDHCLPKA7BSW2PH5OIZVUOCB/



--
Jacqueline Kazil | @jackiekazil

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/WOAYYHGIQG7W4DUXBJHBOXEE44C2THDV/
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/JJWQYZZTTOWELRGSHYLG5FKKCIMRSI2K/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Barry Warsaw]

I think it’s fine to say that Python 2 EOL is on January 1, 2020.  That doesn’t 
preclude a Contractual Obligation release in April.  There’s precedence in the 
last Python 1 (1.6.1) release!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python%27s_Contractual_Obligation_Album

-Barry

> On Sep 10, 2019, at 14:09, Jacqueline Kazil  wrote:
> 
> RE: Ned's comments -- That is the same reaction I had when I read through 
> this thread.
> 
> RE: Tal's comment - I could see this making sense as an explanation.
> 
> RE: Guido's comment
> This makes me think that April 2020 is not a thing. And if Ben is supporting 
> solo, then can people email him directly with issues? 
> 
> On a serious note...
> I would like clarification, so we (dev community and PSF) have a shared 
> understanding of the direction and are sending the same messaging.
> 
> -Jackie
> PSF Board of Directors
> 
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:20 PM Tal Einat  wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 10:03 PM Ned Batchelder  
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not looking forward to answering questions from the public about why
> > the PSF is writing dire and specific warnings like "We have decided that
> > January 1, 2020, will be the day that we sunset Python 2," while the
> > core devs are planning a release four months after that.  It won't help
> > Python's credibility, and may convince some people that they don't have
> > to take the date seriously..
> 
> To me it seems pretty clear: On Jan 1st 2020, the 2.7.x branch will no
> longer receive fixes for any *new* bugs or security issues, nor other
> improvements. I would expect that be the time of the code freeze for
> the first release candidate, not the time of the final release. While
> we will still fix issues *introduced in 2.7.18 since 2.7.17* before
> the final 2.7.18 release, we won't address any other bugs or security
> issues and won't backport anything *new* from 3.x. (I may have some
> details not exactly correct here, but I hope the gist is correct.)
> 
> I'm sure the wording could be improved, but generally this seems
> entirely reasonable to me.
> 
> - Tal Einat
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KSU2A5SDGDHCLPKA7BSW2PH5OIZVUOCB/
> 
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Kazil | @jackiekazil
> 
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/WOAYYHGIQG7W4DUXBJHBOXEE44C2THDV/



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/52YWO5YR47AAPGJM6WJ7MQMVHHQRQE7X/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Jacqueline Kazil]

*RE: Ned's comments -- *That is the same reaction I had when I read through
this thread.

*RE: Tal's comment - *I could see this making sense as an explanation.

*RE: Guido's comment*
This makes me think that April 2020 is not a thing. And if Ben is
supporting solo, then can people email him directly with issues? 

*On a serious note...*
I would like clarification, so we (dev community and PSF) have a shared
understanding of the direction and are sending the same messaging.

-Jackie
PSF Board of Directors

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:20 PM Tal Einat  wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 10:03 PM Ned Batchelder 
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not looking forward to answering questions from the public about why
> > the PSF is writing dire and specific warnings like "We have decided that
> > January 1, 2020, will be the day that we sunset Python 2," while the
> > core devs are planning a release four months after that.  It won't help
> > Python's credibility, and may convince some people that they don't have
> > to take the date seriously..
>
> To me it seems pretty clear: On Jan 1st 2020, the 2.7.x branch will no
> longer receive fixes for any *new* bugs or security issues, nor other
> improvements. I would expect that be the time of the code freeze for
> the first release candidate, not the time of the final release. While
> we will still fix issues *introduced in 2.7.18 since 2.7.17* before
> the final 2.7.18 release, we won't address any other bugs or security
> issues and won't backport anything *new* from 3.x. (I may have some
> details not exactly correct here, but I hope the gist is correct.)
>
> I'm sure the wording could be improved, but generally this seems
> entirely reasonable to me.
>
> - Tal Einat
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KSU2A5SDGDHCLPKA7BSW2PH5OIZVUOCB/
>


-- 
Jacqueline Kazil | @jackiekazil
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/WOAYYHGIQG7W4DUXBJHBOXEE44C2THDV/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Tal Einat]

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 10:03 PM Ned Batchelder  wrote:
>
> I'm not looking forward to answering questions from the public about why
> the PSF is writing dire and specific warnings like "We have decided that
> January 1, 2020, will be the day that we sunset Python 2," while the
> core devs are planning a release four months after that.  It won't help
> Python's credibility, and may convince some people that they don't have
> to take the date seriously..

To me it seems pretty clear: On Jan 1st 2020, the 2.7.x branch will no
longer receive fixes for any *new* bugs or security issues, nor other
improvements. I would expect that be the time of the code freeze for
the first release candidate, not the time of the final release. While
we will still fix issues *introduced in 2.7.18 since 2.7.17* before
the final 2.7.18 release, we won't address any other bugs or security
issues and won't backport anything *new* from 3.x. (I may have some
details not exactly correct here, but I hope the gist is correct.)

I'm sure the wording could be improved, but generally this seems
entirely reasonable to me.

- Tal Einat
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KSU2A5SDGDHCLPKA7BSW2PH5OIZVUOCB/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:05 AM Ned Batchelder  wrote:
>
> On 9/10/19 11:06 AM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, at 15:54, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> >> Maybe I'm not involved enough in the release process, but this seems
> >> confusing to me.  On the same day that the PSF put up a page about the
> >> 1/1/2020 date, we choose April 2020 as the last release?  Why?  I
> >> thought the point was to save core devs efforts.  Is this an unofficial
> >> grace period?  Will there be a public document that announces the April
> >> date?
> > This mail is a public document.
> >
> > The thinking is that ±2 months is rounding error in Python 2's lifetime, so 
> > why not move it to a significant community time? (There was never going to 
> > be a release exactly on January 1 simply because it's an inconvenient time 
> > of the year for "work".) I suppose practically it amounts to a small grace 
> > period if core devs willing to merge 2.7 changes post 2020-01-01 can be 
> > found.
>
>
> I'm not looking forward to answering questions from the public about why
> the PSF is writing dire and specific warnings like "We have decided that
> January 1, 2020, will be the day that we sunset Python 2," while the
> core devs are planning a release four months after that.  It won't help
> Python's credibility, and may convince some people that they don't have
> to take the date seriously..
>

It always takes some time to go through the phases of a release. If
the final release happened on Jan 1st, there wouldn't be time to get
patches in during the tail of 2019. Python 2's sunset does indeed
happen as 2020 starts, but before night completely falls, there are
some final actions to be taken in order to produce one good, clean,
final release.

Plus the whole "let's align it with something else that's happening"
thing, but that doesn't sound half as grand :)

ChrisA
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/ISSSHTDBTCGBXY7YSMS3EZCT42CXL7A5/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Ned Batchelder]

On 9/10/19 11:06 AM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, at 15:54, Ned Batchelder wrote:

Maybe I'm not involved enough in the release process, but this seems
confusing to me.  On the same day that the PSF put up a page about the
1/1/2020 date, we choose April 2020 as the last release?  Why?  I
thought the point was to save core devs efforts.  Is this an unofficial
grace period?  Will there be a public document that announces the April
date?

This mail is a public document.

The thinking is that ±2 months is rounding error in Python 2's lifetime, so why not move 
it to a significant community time? (There was never going to be a release exactly on 
January 1 simply because it's an inconvenient time of the year for "work".) I 
suppose practically it amounts to a small grace period if core devs willing to merge 2.7 
changes post 2020-01-01 can be found.



I'm not looking forward to answering questions from the public about why 
the PSF is writing dire and specific warnings like "We have decided that 
January 1, 2020, will be the day that we sunset Python 2," while the 
core devs are planning a release four months after that.  It won't help 
Python's credibility, and may convince some people that they don't have 
to take the date seriously..


--Ned.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/ZTXTUW2WGSZSXP2LCQFUVHSBJYBZUHJQ/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Stefan Behnel]

Ned Batchelder schrieb am 10.09.19 um 16:54:
> this seems confusing to me
> What does the "official EOL date" mean if there's a release in April?

Also, what day in April? For example, planning the release for the 1st
could possibly add further to the confusion.

Stefan
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/ETQO7XXHRSAB43SXKO6FAMHI45OKV6HB/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Terry Reedy]

On 9/10/2019 10:54 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:


What does the "official EOL date" mean if there's a release in April?


To me, it means that coredevs freely patching 2.7 ends 1/1/2020 and that 
the final release will occur by PyCon and that everything between the 
two is at the discretion of Benjamin, the release manager.


I think that the first release candidate should be well before PyCon, 
maybe even in January, to make 2.7 EOL real and to allow time for a 
second or even a third, due to last minute pleas.  But that is up to 
Benjamin.


--
Terry Jan Reedy
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/EEQWV67ERFG6CYOBMM43JDT6ZZYJ43TK/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Guido van Rossum]

It probably means that from January to April Benjamin will be too busy
porting Dropbox to Python 3 to have time for Python 2 support.

Or possibly it means that until PyCon 2020, there will be only one core
developer supporting Python 2, and it will be Benjamin.

You choose. :-)


On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:00 PM Ned Batchelder 
wrote:

> Maybe I'm not involved enough in the release process, but this seems
> confusing to me.  On the same day that the PSF put up a page about the
> 1/1/2020 date, we choose April 2020 as the last release?  Why?  I
> thought the point was to save core devs efforts.  Is this an unofficial
> grace period?  Will there be a public document that announces the April
> date?
>
> What does the "official EOL date" mean if there's a release in April?
>
> --Ned.
>
> On 9/9/19 9:29 AM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > It's finally time to schedule the last releases in Python 2's life.
> There will be two more releases of Python 2.7: Python 2.7.17 and Python
> 2.7.18.
> >
> > Python 2.7.17 release candidate 1 will happen on October 5th followed by
> the final release on October 19th.
> >
> > I'm going to time Python 2.7.18 to coincide with PyCon 2020 in April, so
> attendees can enjoy some collective catharsis. We'll still say January 1st
> is the official EOL date.
> >
> > Thanks to Sumana Harihareswara, there's now a FAQ about the Python 2
> sunset on the website: https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/
> >
> > Regards,
> > Benjamin
> > ___
> > Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> > Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/APWHFYQDKNVYQAK3HZMBGQIZHAVRHCV2/
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/TVIMZGRZQXDAXKARJBUEZJJ7YSTNWMKA/
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him/his **(why is my pronoun here?)*

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/7FVTDKLUXTDYOZDDE47V7ABSNXA5QKZ5/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Benjamin Peterson]

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, at 15:54, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> Maybe I'm not involved enough in the release process, but this seems 
> confusing to me.  On the same day that the PSF put up a page about the 
> 1/1/2020 date, we choose April 2020 as the last release?  Why?  I 
> thought the point was to save core devs efforts.  Is this an unofficial 
> grace period?  Will there be a public document that announces the April 
> date?

This mail is a public document.

The thinking is that ±2 months is rounding error in Python 2's lifetime, so why 
not move it to a significant community time? (There was never going to be a 
release exactly on January 1 simply because it's an inconvenient time of the 
year for "work".) I suppose practically it amounts to a small grace period if 
core devs willing to merge 2.7 changes post 2020-01-01 can be found.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/N6JIGTTJCJHS47AYSI76SJPCQS25EBWR/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Ned Batchelder]

Maybe I'm not involved enough in the release process, but this seems 
confusing to me.  On the same day that the PSF put up a page about the 
1/1/2020 date, we choose April 2020 as the last release?  Why?  I 
thought the point was to save core devs efforts.  Is this an unofficial 
grace period?  Will there be a public document that announces the April 
date?


What does the "official EOL date" mean if there's a release in April?

--Ned.

On 9/9/19 9:29 AM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:

Hi all,
It's finally time to schedule the last releases in Python 2's life. There will 
be two more releases of Python 2.7: Python 2.7.17 and Python 2.7.18.

Python 2.7.17 release candidate 1 will happen on October 5th followed by the 
final release on October 19th.

I'm going to time Python 2.7.18 to coincide with PyCon 2020 in April, so 
attendees can enjoy some collective catharsis. We'll still say January 1st is 
the official EOL date.

Thanks to Sumana Harihareswara, there's now a FAQ about the Python 2 sunset on 
the website: https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/

Regards,
Benjamin
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/APWHFYQDKNVYQAK3HZMBGQIZHAVRHCV2/

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/TVIMZGRZQXDAXKARJBUEZJJ7YSTNWMKA/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Steve Holden]

It's not dead, it's just restin' after a particularly heavy release process.

regards
Steve Holden


On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 4:24 PM Rhodri James  wrote:

> On 09/09/2019 15:51, brian.sk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >  it's getting better?
>
> No it's not, it'll be stone dead in a moment.
>
> --
> Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/AUMYGJ444W53RFXK5LGUX46UGDBC4RCB/
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/JIMW7GYCMUVBCNJRORMHLCH2Z46SCKKS/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Rhodri James]

On 09/09/2019 15:51, brian.sk...@gmail.com wrote:

 it's getting better?


No it's not, it'll be stone dead in a moment.

--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/AUMYGJ444W53RFXK5LGUX46UGDBC4RCB/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[brian . skinn]

 it's getting better?
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/C52ZRWV5XXYXS7VRDNH6I7IDIMO2A2PM/

[Python-Dev] Re: The Python 2 death march

[Antoine Pitrou]

It says it's feeling fine ;-)

Regards

Antoine.


On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 14:29:51 +0100
"Benjamin Peterson"  wrote:
> Hi all,
> It's finally time to schedule the last releases in Python 2's life. There 
> will be two more releases of Python 2.7: Python 2.7.17 and Python 2.7.18.
> 
> Python 2.7.17 release candidate 1 will happen on October 5th followed by the 
> final release on October 19th.
> 
> I'm going to time Python 2.7.18 to coincide with PyCon 2020 in April, so 
> attendees can enjoy some collective catharsis. We'll still say January 1st is 
> the official EOL date.
> 
> Thanks to Sumana Harihareswara, there's now a FAQ about the Python 2 sunset 
> on the website: https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/
> 
> Regards,
> Benjamin


___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BYYJTWPS3V4DBJKEZLNWGKAX5RHKVYOI/