[issue45382] platform() is not able to detect windows 11

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

> I don't see why the wmi module ( https://pypi.org/project/WMI/ ) can't be 
> used instead to get the information

Well I can speak here as the author of that module and as an (occasional) core 
developer. The wmi module stands on the shoulderes of the pywin32 
win32com.client code -- which is an _enormous_ dependency to bring into Python. 
(And which no-one would realistically agree to...)

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[issue45621] Small fixes to mmap

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
resolution:  -> fixed
stage: patch review -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue45621] Small fixes to mmap

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:


New changeset 7bddd96982072d04bd6314da1ee7f40b7f875f00 by Tim Golden in branch 
'main':
bpo-45621: Small changes to mmap (GH-29247)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/7bddd96982072d04bd6314da1ee7f40b7f875f00


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[issue45621] Small fixes to mmap

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +27511
stage:  -> patch review
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/29247

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[issue45621] Small fixes to mmap

[Tim Golden]

New submission from Tim Golden :

Following issue40915 a few small items still need to be addressed, mostly 
cosmetic / naming:

* A comment should have been removed but wasn't
* A comment should have been added but wasn't
* The use of the string "TEST" should be avoided in tests particularly where 
there is a shared namespace and therefore the chance of a collision

--
assignee: tim.golden
messages: 405073
nosy: tim.golden
priority: low
severity: normal
status: open
title: Small fixes to mmap
type: behavior
versions: Python 3.11

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[issue40915] multiple problems with mmap.resize() in Windows

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
resolution:  -> fixed
stage: patch review -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue40915] multiple problems with mmap.resize() in Windows

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:


New changeset aea5ecc458084e01534ea6a11f4181f369869082 by Tim Golden in branch 
'main':
bpo-40915: Fix mmap resize bugs on Windows (GH-29213)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/aea5ecc458084e01534ea6a11f4181f369869082


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[issue40915] multiple problems with mmap.resize() in Windows

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +27477
stage: needs patch -> patch review
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/29213

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[issue2733] mmap resize fails on anonymous memory

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
resolution: later -> duplicate
superseder:  -> multiple problems with mmap.resize()  in Windows

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[issue2733] mmap resize fails on anonymous memory

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Superseded by issue40915

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[issue2733] mmap resize fails on anonymous memory

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
resolution:  -> later
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue40915] multiple problems with mmap.resize() in Windows

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
assignee:  -> tim.golden

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[issue12562] calling mmap twice fails on Windows

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

(switching stage to resolved because it's closed/rejected; sorry for the noise)

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[issue2733] mmap resize fails on anonymous memory

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

https://bugs.python.org/issue40915 is related
Retargetting for 3.10+

--
assignee:  -> tim.golden
versions: +Python 3.10, Python 3.11 -Python 2.7, Python 3.2

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[issue14170] print unicode string error in win8 cmd console

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Closing this as out-of-date. The original bug was reported against 2.7 and 
Win8, both of which are either end-of-life now.

No follow up in 9 years and I'm quite certain that modern Pythons handle all 
manner of Unicode chars on the console.

--
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stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue34240] Convert test_mmap to use tempfile

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Closing as no longer reproducible in the current codebase on my current laptop

--
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stage: patch review -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue40912] _PyOS_SigintEvent is never closed on Windows

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
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[issue40913] time.sleep ignores errors on Windows

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Thanks, Eryk. I've had a couple of casts at this (and also with an eye to 
https://bugs.python.org/issue40912 in a very similar area).

Trouble is I can't come up with a way of adding a set.. function which doesn't 
seem wholly artificial, given that it's basically creating an anonymous event 
and checking its return. I can't come up with a non-testing scenario where the 
ability to override would be useful.

If I understand your proposal, a tentative "set..." function would have to take 
a HANDLE parameter so that it could be overridden by a test? That means its 
normal use would be something like:

setSigintEvent(CreateEvent(NULL, ));

so either the error checking for that would be inside the function, which feels 
weird, or would happen outside, which feels like the functions not doing 
anything. (I appreciate I may be overthinking here).

I'm very much open to suggestions here, but it seems to me that either:

We make the (simple) change without tests;

or we add a setSigintEvent function as above whose only purpose is to be 
overridden -- and then only for testing.

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[issue40913] time.sleep ignores errors on Windows

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


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[issue40913] time.sleep ignores errors on Windows

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Thinking about testing here.. is there any straightforward way to cause 
WaitForSingleObjectEx to fail?

The code change would be fairly slight and amenable to inspection, but it would 
be good to actually test it ;)

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[issue38324] [Windows] test_locale and test__locale failures on Windows

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

This is the existing issue https://bugs.python.org/issue37945 which I haven't 
had time to progress. Please feel free to follow up

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[issue37945] test_locale failing

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

This feels like one of those changes where what's in place is clearly flawed 
but any change seems like it'll break stuff which people have had in place for 
years.

I'll try to look at a least-breaking change but I'm honestly not sure what that 
would look like.

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[issue37945] test_locale failing

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

I agree that that could be a fix. And certainly, if it turns out that this 
could never have (recently) worked as Eryk is suggesting, then let's go for it.

But I still have this uneasy feeling that it's not failing on the buildbots and 
I can't see any sign of a skipped test in the test stdio. I just wonder whether 
there's something else at play here.

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[issue37945] test_locale failing

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Thanks, Eryk. Your explanation is as clear as always. But my question is, then: 
why is my machine failing this test [the only one which uses this two-part 
locale] and not the buildbots or (presumably) any other Windows developer?

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[issue37945] test_locale failing

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Just to save you looking, the code in 
https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/Modules/_localemodule.c#L107 
converts the 2-tuple to lang.encoding form so the C module is seeing 
"en_GB.cp1252"

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[issue37945] test_locale failing

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Ok; so basically this doesn't work:


import locale
locale.setlocale(locale.LC_CTYPE, locale.getdefaultlocale())


It gives "locale.Error: unsupported locale setting" which comes from 
https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/Modules/_localemodule.c#L107

(For locale.getdefaultlocale() you could substitute locale.getlocale() or 
simply ("en_GB", "cp1252")). On my machine it raises that exception on Python 
2.7.15, 3.6.6 and on master. 

Interestingly, none of the other tests in test_locale appear to exercise the 
2-tuple 2nd param to setlocale. When you call setlocale and it returns the 
previous setting, it's a single string, eg "en_GB" etc. Passing that back in 
works. But when you call getlocale, it returns the 2-tuple, eg ("en_GB", 
"cp1252"). But all the other tests use the setlocale-returns-current trick for 
their setup/teardown.

I've quickly tested on 3.5 on Linux and the 2-tuple version works ok. I assume 
it's working on buildbots or we'd see the Turkish test failing every time. So 
is there something different about my C runtime, I wonder?

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[issue37945] test_locale failing

[Tim Golden]

New submission from Tim Golden :

On a Win10 machine I'm consistently seeing test_locale (and test__locale) fail. 
I'll attach pythoninfo.

==
ERROR: test_getsetlocale_issue1813 (test.test_locale.TestMiscellaneous)
--
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Users\tim\work-in-progress\cpython\lib\test\test_locale.py", line 
531, in test_getsetlocale_issue1813
locale.setlocale(locale.LC_CTYPE, loc)
  File "C:\Users\tim\work-in-progress\cpython\lib\locale.py", line 604, in 
setlocale
return _setlocale(category, locale)
locale.Error: unsupported locale setting

--
assignee: tim.golden
components: Library (Lib)
files: pythoninfo.txt
messages: 350466
nosy: tim.golden
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: test_locale failing
type: behavior
versions: Python 3.9
Added file: https://bugs.python.org/file48561/pythoninfo.txt

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[issue36800] Invalid coding error hidden on Windows

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Python 3.6.6 (v3.6.6:4cf1f54eb7, Jun 27 2018, 03:37:03) [MSC v.1900 64 bit 
(AMD64)] on win32

I can't reproduce this on Windows. And it does seem an unlikely combination of 
effect and cause.

Do I take it that if you take out all the "logging..." lines, the thing works? 
ie you do correctly import threading and it shows a reasonable value when you 
print(threading)?

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[issue35140] encoding problem: gbk

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

I'm afraid you'll have to use English in this forum so that all current and 
future readers have the best chance of understanding the situation. Thank you 
very much for making the effort this far.

If anyone on this issue knows of a Chinese-language forum where this issue 
could explored before coming back here, please say so. Otherwise I'll ask 
around on Twitter etc. to see what's available

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[issue34239] Convert test_bz2 to use tempfile

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
resolution:  -> fixed
stage: patch review -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue34240] Convert test_mmap to use tempfile

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Thanks for the information, eryksun.

For the moment, I can only say with a fair degree of certainty that using the 
tempfile functions as I have in test_bz2 & test_mmap appears to solve the issue 
which is repeatably if intermittently present without that change.

I'll be trying to narrow the issue down before making any further changes

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[issue34239] Convert test_bz2 to use tempfile

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:


New changeset 6a62e1d365934de82ff7c634981b3fbf218b4d5f by Tim Golden in branch 
'master':
bpo-34239: Convert test_bz2 to use tempfile (#8485)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/6a62e1d365934de82ff7c634981b3fbf218b4d5f


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[issue34240] Convert test_mmap to use tempfile

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +8008
stage:  -> patch review

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[issue34240] Convert test_mmap to use tempfile

[Tim Golden]

New submission from Tim Golden :

test_mmap currently uses the test.support.TESTFN functionality which creates a 
temporary file local to the test directory named around the pid. 

This can give rise to race conditions where tests are competing with each other 
to delete and recreate the file.

--
assignee: tim.golden
messages: 322444
nosy: tim.golden
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Convert test_mmap to use tempfile
versions: Python 3.8

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[issue34239] Convert test_bz2 to use tempfile

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +8007
stage:  -> patch review

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[issue34239] Convert test_bz2 to use tempfile

[Tim Golden]

New submission from Tim Golden :

test_bz2 currently uses the test.support.TESTFN functionality which creates a 
temporary file local to the test directory named around the pid. 

This can give rise to race conditions where tests are competing with each other 
to delete and recreate the file.

--
assignee: tim.golden
messages: 322441
nosy: tim.golden
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Convert test_bz2 to use tempfile
type: behavior
versions: Python 3.8

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Re: hello from a very excited and totally blind python programmer and game player

[Tim Golden]

Hi Daniel,

I'm unsure how well your support tools will work with quoted emails. I'm 
going to place my answer below your text according to the convention on 
this list.


On 24/07/2018 21:09, Daniel Perry wrote:

Hi there everyone, my name is Daniel Perry and I'm a totally blind
new Python user. I've only just recently started picking up python
and playing with it and I intend on building some unique audio
computer games for the blind. Such things mostly as simulation games
like farming, building type games and even eventually a virtual world
built completely with audio but building it in such a way that both
we as totally blind colonists can live inside of it but also that our
fully sighted counterparts could live here as well and not need any
sort of guidance from the other group. That is, the blind would not
need any help from our sighted counterparts and you in turn would not
need any guidance from us as to how to live in the world or grow in
it. Of course this virtual world idea is down the road, I've got
other game ideas first of all but I would eventually like to get to
the point I've just described above. Preferably building my own
server on which to park not only my virtual world and games but also
my web site that I would most likely need to put these items up to be
downloaded. Have a wonderful day to you all and I look forward to
your feedback and advice. Also, When I opened up the first message
that I had gotten from this list, I got a prompt that popped up
asking if I wanted to make windows live mail my default news client
and I answered no. From that point on, I've been getting an error
message and the message would not open. How must I fix this? or am I
able to correct this situation. Have a wonderful day and I look
forward to hearing from you soon.



First of all: Hello, and welcome. If you're a beginner to Python (or to 
programming in general) you might find the tutor list is a better place 
to start:


  https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor

But feel free to carry on posting here if you prefer.

If you want advice you'll probably need to ask a more or less focused 
question. The sort of thing you outline as an audio computer game sounds 
interesting and quite ambitious. I'm not clear if you've done any 
programming at all until now? If not, you'll want to start small and 
work up from there.


I'm not clear what's going on with your Windows Live Mail issue. The 
only (and obvious) thing I can suggest initially is to ask if someone 
closer to you can understand what's happening and advise. It's difficult 
to guess what's happened without getting closer to the problem.


Anyway, do post back here or to the Tutor list and ask if you any 
specific questions.


TJG
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[issue34195] test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:


New changeset ff64add8d4be2e37c552ba702f629b0b6639cd33 by Tim Golden in branch 
'master':
bpo-34195: Fix case-sensitive comparison in test_nt_helpers (GH-8448)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/ff64add8d4be2e37c552ba702f629b0b6639cd33


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[issue34195] test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Test fixed to ignore case and volume differences between paths

--
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status: open -> closed

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[issue34195] test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter

[Tim Golden]

Change by Tim Golden :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +7970
stage: needs patch -> patch review

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[issue34195] test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

I think I've got down to the determining factor. For info:

PYTHONHOME has nothing to do with it: the same thing happens if I cd into 
PCBuild\win32 and run python_d.exe directly

For historical reasons the directory in which I'm building 
(c:\work-in-progress) is actually a junction to c:\users\\work-in-progress. 
There is some commentary in the API docs about traversing junctions, so 
presumably that's special-cased in some way which results in an uppercase drive 
letter.

If I rebuild in, eg, c:\temp which is a normal directory, I don't see the 
uppercase conversion. So, while I still need to fix the underlying test to be 
case-insensitive, it looks like the Mystery of the Uppercase Drive Letter is at 
least mostly solved.

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[issue34195] test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

@eryksun almost idly I ran your ctypes code in the built interpreter. As 
written, it produces a lower-case c:\\ as yours did.

But...

Running Debug|Win32 interpreter...
Python 3.8.0a0 (heads/master:7a3056f, Jul 23 2018, 08:23:33) [MSC v.1912 32 bit 
(Intel)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import ctypes, sys
>>>
>>> sys.executable
'c:\\work-in-progress\\python\\cpython\\PCbuild\\win32\\python_d.exe'
>>> kernel32 = ctypes.WinDLL('kernel32', use_last_error=True)
>>> path = (ctypes.c_wchar * 4)()
>>> kernel32.GetVolumePathNameW(sys.executable, path, 4)
1
>>> path.value
'C:\\'
>>>

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[issue34195] test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

Thanks, @eryksun. Whatever the reason, it's consistently failing in the way I 
describe. A case-insensitive test is obviously good for that and for the other 
reasons you give, so I'll patch the test anyway.

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[issue34195] test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden  added the comment:

import nt, sys; assert 
sys.executable.startswith(nt._getvolumepathname(sys.executable))

This code fails only when run from the python.bat as created by 
pcbuild\build.bat. The obvious difference is that the batch file sets 
PYTHONHOME which, presumably, is used to form sys.executable (haven't checked 
the startup code yet).

The docs for GetVolumePathName [*] don't specify that the drive letter of the 
path returned will be upper-case, but it doesn't seem unlikely.

So... it looks as though the test is unduly sensitive to case-differences in 
the face of something like PYTHONHOME which affects the way in which 
sys.executable is formed.

Phew! I'll put a test patch together later...

[*] 
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/api/fileapi/nf-fileapi-getvolumepathnamew

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[issue34195] test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter

[Tim Golden]

New submission from Tim Golden :

>From a fresh build on Win10 with VS2017:

python -munittest -v test.test_ntpath.TestNtpath.test_nt_helpers

gives the following error:

==
FAIL: test_nt_helpers (test.test_ntpath.TestNtpath)
--
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "c:\work-in-progress\python\cpython\lib\test\test_ntpath.py", line 432, 
in test_nt_helpers
self.assertEqual(drive, nt._getvolumepathname(sys.executable))
AssertionError: 'c:\\' != 'C:\\'
- c:\
? ^
+ C:\
? ^


Ad hoc, it appears that:

`sys.executable` gives a lower-case path while `nt._getvolumepathname` gives an 
upper-case drive letter.

While the test could be trivially fixed, it seems worth investigating a little 
further to see what's happening inside `nt._getvolumepathname`

--
assignee: tim.golden
components: Windows
messages: 322185
nosy: paul.moore, steve.dower, tim.golden, zach.ware
priority: normal
severity: normal
stage: needs patch
status: open
title: test_nt_helpers fails with case difference in drive letter
type: behavior
versions: Python 3.8

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Moderator interjection [WAS: Re: What "cult-like behavior" meant]

[Tim Golden]

[Moderator hat on]

Please. Step back.

We've gone over and over this (and not for the first time). This has 
ceased to be a enlightening discussion into possibly interesting issues 
of Unicode implementation. It has effectively become a restatement of 
entrenched positions.


If the key participants (and there are really very few of you) wish to 
pursue this in some other forum, please do so. But please don't pursue 
it here: it's creating an amount of noise disproportionate to its 
possible value.


Thank you

TJG
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Re: Where's the junk coming from?

[Tim Golden]

On 28/06/2018 09:05, Kerr Avon wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 21:43:12 +1200, Avon wrote:


Hey Cameron,

Apologies for this. I have contacted the Fido system connected to the
gateway I run into news.bbs.nz and have asked them to urgently sort /
check what's up. If I don't get any joy from them within the next 24
hours I will delink them so as to negate further probs.

My hunch is a BBS (yes they still exist :)) is taking a gated feed of
this newsgroup and is linked to more than one gateway so stuff is
looping... not good.

Stand by caller... we're working on this now.

Best, Paul newsmaster [at] news dot bbs dot nz


Yep confirming I found the issue lay with the sysop of a BBS that connects
to the gateway linked to news.bbs.nz

I have delinked him while he addresses the issue (which he has found) and
we will leave him delinked for a few more days to be sure.

If anyone spots anything amiss that looks like it's coming in from
news.bbs.nz please feel free to contact me again and I'll get right on to
it.

Apologies for the hassles.

Best, Paul


(Wearing my List Moderator hat)

Thanks very much for addressing this for us, and to Cameron and others 
who did the detective work. I admit I assumed at first it was some kind 
of odd attack perhaps related to a dissatisfied poster so I'm glad it 
was a misconfiguration issue.


TJG

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Re: Feeding the trolls

[Tim Golden]

On 22/06/2018 09:33, bart4...@gmail.com wrote:

It costs me some genuine effort to make what I believe are relevant
and interesting technical posts


I thank you for at least taking that trouble. But I think that this is 
probably where the difference lies. This newsgroup/mailing list is 
primarily for the purpose of asking about or discussing aspects of the 
Python programming language, not a forum for discussing languages in 
general.


Obviously a genuine enquiry into how or why Python has taken a 
particular design path can lead to an enlightening discussion on 
language design. Sometimes as an unexpected spin-off discussion from an 
original query.


But, for the most part Bart, you've failed to understand anyone's design 
decisions but your own. You've consistently replied in a way that 
effectively dismisses the various challenges facing this particular 
language at this particular point in time, and instead have referred to 
your own design choices and implementations as an exemplar.


If you have a genuine interest in how Python is implemented (and not 
simply in expressing how it is different in some way to your own 
languages) then please bring it up.


If you have a plausible way in which Python could improve then please 
take it to the Python Ideas list (and be prepared for some robust 
discussion):


  https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas

But if your only goal is to highlight the advantages of your own 
language and design choices, then please write a blog post, or tweet 
about it, or take it to some kind of cross-language forum.


Thanks

TJG
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Re: syntax difference

[Tim Golden]

[... snip discussions about Bart's language ...]

Wearing my moderator hat

Can we take the "Bart's language vs Python Show" to some other forum, 
please? We've already gone over this ground again and again and it isn't 
helping the signal-to-noise ratio here on the Python list / comp.lang.python


Thanks

TJG
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Re: Fwd: Python Import Impossibility

[Tim Golden]

On 17/04/2018 23:09, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 4/17/2018 5:06 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:

Given that the list does not allow pictures, would it make sense to
have the software that strips the pictures also send an e-mail to the
picture sender indicating that pictures are disallowed?

I see a lot of people responding individually saying that images are
stripped.  It's looking like a bit of a traffic increaser.


My impression is that attachments are more common than 20 years ago.


In a more draconian world, we could even bounce such messages.


If Tim Golden does not reply to this, send suggestion to 
python-list-owner at python.org




Just seen this. I'll ping the Mailman devs to see if it's an easy 
option. If it is, we can decide whether it's a good idea for the list. 
If it's complicated from the Mailman POV then I'm afraid it's unlikely 
to go anywhere.


Thanks for the suggestion; we'll take a look

TJG
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Tim Golden]

On 28/03/2018 15:50, sumana.hariharesw...@gmail.com wrote:

I'll give a bit of context on PyPI's new visual design, then talk
about specific concerns folks have mentioned in this thread.


[... snip ...]

At the risk of sounding patronising, can I thank you for coming back to
engage with the ideas expressed here, dissenting and otherwise? Frankly, 
I wouldn't have been surprised if you'd either stayed silent or simply 
pointed people towards your issue tracker.


I think it's important to acknowledge that, no matter how much
communication and outreach has been involved, not everyone's going to be
happy with a redesign. Having our concerns be taken seriously, even if
they're ultimately not accepted, is key.

TJG
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Re: please test the new PyPI (now in beta)

[Tim Golden]

On 27/03/2018 11:06, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 10:48:15 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:


By the way, on the search page:

https://pypi.org/search/


it says "Enter a search query above, or select a filter from the list
of classifiers on the left" but there is no such filter or list of
classifiers.


Do you not get the section

"""

Filter Projects

By Programming Language
By License
By Framework
...
"""

on the left of the page?


There's nothing on the left of the page. It has:

(pypi logo) (search projects text box)

("Enter a search query..." with examples)

(Add filter button)


then the blue footer with "Get Help", "About PyPI", etc.


I imagine the Classifiers are being injected by JS. I know from previous 
comments of Steven's that he's not a fan of this particular approach to 
web page construction.


But whether I'm right or not, commenting snarkily about the design of 
pypi.org on *this* list doesn't seem particularly useful. Feel free to 
take it up on any of the forums where the work is actually being done by 
the people who are actually doing it, and who have been doing so for 
quite a while now.


Either they'll take note of your concerns and act, or they'll decline to 
agree with your point of view. In either case, talking about it here 
seems fruitless.


TJG
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Can mock.mock_open.read return different values?

[Tim Golden]

I'm contributing to a codebase which makes heavy use of mock in the test 
suite, a technique which I'm aware of but have used only rarely. In one 
situation it uses mock.mock_open(read_data="...") and then asserts again 
mock_open.return_value.read.call_count.


A code change I've made results in an increase in the call count but 
also the open() I've introduced opens the file in binary mode and does 
something with the resulting data.


Hugely simplified, the new code and unchanged test looks like this:

import os, sys
import unittest
from unittest import mock

def read_file(filename):

#
# This section is new
#
with open(filename, "rb") as f:
text = f.read()
if text.startswith(b"#"):
pass

with open(filename) as f:
text = f.read()
if text.startswith("#"):
pass

return text

class TestS(unittest.TestCase):

def test_read_file(self):
mock_open = mock.mock_open(read_data="abc")
with mock.patch('builtins.open', mock_open):
data = read_file("abc")
assert mock_open.return_value.read.call_count == 1

if __name__ == '__main__':
unittest.main()


I would expect the test to fail because of the call_count change. But in 
fact it errors out because the newly-added "if test.startswith()" 
receives a string, not bytes, from the Mock's read_data functionality.


Ignore for the moment any question of changing the read_file 
implementation to assist testing. And leave aside the question of 
whether a mock_open is really a good test approach here.


Is there any way in which I can have the mock_open object return bytes 
for the first open and a string for the second? I've looked at setting a 
side_effect function against the mock_open.return_value.read Mock, but I 
can't see a way of having the function know whether it's supposed to be 
returning bytes or string.



TJG
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Tim Golden]

On 09/02/2018 15:37, Chris Green wrote:

Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:


Mark Lawrence  wrote:

[...]

Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've


Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.


That's what he said :-)

Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I
checked.


He said ".(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird"

That seems to imply (to me anyway) that one needs a mail client to
read from news.gmane.org and that's just plain wrong.

While *some* mail clients are also NNTP readers it's by no means
universally true.



Just to head this off at the pass: for the purpose of discussion, could 
we assume that this particular point doesn't really matter, please?


Thanks

TJG
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Tim Golden]

On 09/02/2018 05:00, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 23:40:57 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:


I don't see any spam in my inbox as I read on gmane, I'm pointing out
the disgraceful state of gg and why it should be dropped as it's less
than useless.


Who is it that you think should "drop" Google Groups?


If Mark means: the mailing list gateway should automatically drop posts 
originating from GG, then this wouldn't really buy us anything we don't 
have.


I think it's unlikely that anyone still following this thread isn't 
aware of the situation, but just in case:


We have a newsgroup (comp.lang.python) and a mailing list (python-list) 
which are mirrored to each other by virtue of the Mailman gateway (ie 
the mailing list handles both sides of the mirror).


Google Groups offers a mail & web interface to the newsgroup

Gmane offers a newsgroup interface to the mailing list

The newsgroup is entirely unmoderated and unfiltered

The mailing list is moderated and filtered in different ways:

* We block (hold or discard) mailing list posts by subscriber

* We block inbound usenet posts by header (usually sender email but 
also, eg, ISP)


* We have a Spambayes instance running which injects a spam score header 
and we block on that header


* We have a few other more specific filters in place for various issues 
which have arisen over the years


By and large, this combination of filters, coupled with the work of the 
moderation and postmaster team, is enough to keep the list "clean" of 
manifest spam and so on. Obviously, the first instance of spam might 
slip past all our filters, in which case we're on the back foot and have 
to react. On the whole, though, we catch most things.


So dropping GG altogether would probably not add very much, as we're 
generally blocking undesirable posts from there and we'd rather not 
block genuine posts which happen to be made through the relative 
convenience of the GG interface.


Can I call out for thanks here the people who have worked behind the 
scenes for quite a long time to keep this list running smoothly, 
including: Skip Montanaro who manages the Spambayes setup; Mark Sapiro, 
the Mailman 2 dev lead who looks after all the python.org Mailman2 
instances; Ralf Hildebrandt who acts as Postmaster; of course Barry 
Warsaw who created Mailman (and this list, I believe) and still 
contributes when we need to discuss matters as list owners; of course 
Ethan Furman, my fellow list moderator; and doubtless others whom I've 
forgotten. The fact that the list continues to be readable and useful is 
down in large part to them.


TJG
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Groups

[Tim Golden]

On 01/02/2018 17:01, superchromix wrote:


Our own programming discussion newsgroup, located at
comp.lang.idl-pvwave, started receiving spam messages several months
ago.

Two weeks ago, access to comp.lang.idl-pvwave was blocked by Google
Groups.

When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now
displayed, stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and
can then apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.

However, old public Usenet groups like this have no owner.  The
comp.lang.idl-pvwave group is more than 20 years old.  Hence, there
is no way to unblock the group.

This is a serious problem, since the entire collection of postings
going back many years has been blocked, no just the spam.  This
resource is frequently used by IDL programmers.

Seeing the spam postings in this newsgroup, I expect something
similar may happen to comp.lang.python, soon.



Thanks for the heads-up. I'm not sure there's anything we'll be able to 
do. Google have seemed remarkably uninterested in Google Groups for some 
years now.


Although I recognise how useful GG is for some people, I wouldn't be 
sorry [as a list maintainer here] if it were to be blocked for good by 
forces outside our control. We've wondered several times whether we 
ought to be block its posts outright, but to date we've simply used 
refined filters to block the spam and other abuse. If Google essentially 
close the group down, the decision is taken out of our hands.


TJG
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Re: Where has the practice of sending screen shots as source code come from?

[Tim Golden]

On 28/01/2018 15:04, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

I'm seeing this annoying practice more and more often. Even for trivial
pieces of text, a few lines, people post screenshots instead of copying
the code.

Where has this meme come from? It seems to be one which inconveniences
*everyone* involved:

- for the sender, instead of a simple copy and paste, they have to take a
screen shot, possibly trim the image to remove any bits of the screen
they don't want to show, attach it to their email or upload it to an
image hosting site;


At least for Windows users, grabbing a partial screenshot (eg of text) 
has been very easy since Windows 7 when the "Snipping Tool" was added to 
the builtins. Certainly easier for the average user than trying to do a 
slightly tricky rectangle selection within the Windows console.


Likewise, including it in an email isn't hard; there's a command to do 
it right there from within that tool.


And some at least of the disadvantages you cite for the receiver are 
rarely known or well understood by the senders. They regularly send and 
receive emails with embedded images; why should the mailing list they 
use be any different?


FWIW I agree with you; and I even see this at work in different forms: 
someone sends a screenshot of a spreadsheet to illustrate a problem 
rather than the sheet itself. (When there's no especial sensitivity 
which might otherwise be a good reason).


But most people don't interact with text-only forums these days, so it's 
only natural that the don't consider that aspect of things.


TJG
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Re: Simple graphic library for beginners

[Tim Golden]

On 12/01/2018 08:47, Paul Moore wrote:

On 12 January 2018 at 01:21, bartc  wrote:

On 11/01/2018 23:23, Chris Angelico wrote:


On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:11 AM, bartc  wrote:




I'm almost ready to plonk you, but I think there is still SOME value
in your posts. But please, stop denigrating what you don't understand.



And please try to see things from the pointer of view of a beginner or
outsider, where anything to do with Python seems to have a bewildering and
conflicting array of solutions.


The beginners I've worked with downloaded Python 3.6 and did "pip
install numpy", successfully and without help from me. Sure, some
beginners have issues, but they are usually willing to be helped. To
be as aggressively resistant to the simplest suggestions the way
you're being isn't the behaviour of a beginner in my experience.


I think the shame here is that there is a learning opportunity on both 
sides. As Paul says: by and large, the huge amount of work which the 
Python Packaging team, especially the pip developers, have put in has 
paid off. It's now usually possible to say: "pip install XXX" and have 
it work out of the box for any recentish version of Python on any 
recentish version of a mainstream OS. Once people understand the basics 
of using that "interface", many things become simple.


Unfortunately, where that *doesn't* work, it probably won't be because 
of low-hanging fruit: it'll be because of some strange interaction of 
different versions, odd leftover PATH setups, obscure Windows C Runtime 
redistribution issues, poor encoding interactions between Python and the 
Windows console, and so on.


All of these admit of solutions (if only by way of more informative 
error messages and useful FAQs) but they take time and patience to 
reproduce and work through. Many people -- and especially beginners -- 
don't really have the time or the inclination to follow through. They're 
not really interested in the mechanics of pip or the interaction of 
Python with the Windows installation subsystem. They just want to use 
numpy or pygame, or whatever.


Where there *are* people who are willing to take the time to work things 
through, we [the Python community and especially the packaging/pip crew] 
can welcome them and try to identify weak spots in our own story. But of 
course we react poorly if someone wants merely to dismiss stuff. 
(Typical tweet: "Sigh; Python packaging is still broken!").


I've actually been installing pygame quite a few times recently as part 
of a Coding Dojo I help to run once a term at a school in South London. 
And, even with the wonderful packaging work which the pygame guys have 
done to get wheels on PyPI, it's still sometimes a little painful. Of 
course, in that context, I'm just hustling to get people up-and-running 
and I'll do whatever it takes without stopping to take notes. So I 
sympathise when people say it's not easy for them. But not when they're 
dismissive about it.


TJG
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Re: [META] Are the list admins honouring Posting Prohibited demands?

[Tim Golden]

On 20/12/2017 05:52, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

This is possibly a question for the list admins...

I notice that Lawrence D’Oliveiro has taken up labelling his posts with a
demand that his posts are not to be posted to the Python-List mailing list.

I also see that his posts are not showing up on the mailing list archive. Is
this a coincidence or a direct consequence of his demand?


I'm not going to comment on the specific situation of Lawrence D'O 
posts. What I will say is:


* If someone were to ask specifically that we don't gateway their Usenet 
posts to the list, I can see no reason that we wouldn't honour that 
request. I'm not entirely sure about the reverse (list->Usenet) but 
AFAIK no-one's ever asked! I imagine it's possible.


* At different times we have decided to hold or discard posts made by 
certain people or servers or matching certain criteria, whether they're 
made via the list or gatewayed in from Usenet. The reasons are various 
but are usually obvious. Sometimes this is permanent; sometimes it's 
temporary.


* [I'm fairly sure] The Mailman software which runs the  list will 
honour no-archive headers. That is, it will gateway a given Usenet post 
to the list but will not include it in the archive.


TJG
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Re: Repeated Names (Repeated Names)

[Tim Golden]

On 17/12/2017 13:22, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2017-12-17, Tim Golden <m...@timgolden.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/12/17 00:10, Gregory Ewing wrote:

The duplicate posts all seem to have this header:

Injection-Info: news.bbs.geek.nz;
posting-host="M6YmRdZYyc42DJk0lNlt/X4dpP4dzvceBNabSmESN3E";
  logging-data="4415"; mail-complaints-to="ab...@news.bbs.geek.nz"

I've emailed the administrator of bbs.geek.nz, maybe he
will be able to stop it.

Thanks, Greg. We're actually blocking via that and related headers at
the gateway, which is why the mailing list is no longer seeing the
duplicates. I'm not sure any of us thought to email the news server
admin, though!

I did; the address is fake.
Thanks, Jon. Looks like there's nothing for us to do on the mailing list 
but keep blocking, then!


TJG
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Re: Repeated Names (Repeated Names)

[Tim Golden]

On 17/12/17 00:10, Gregory Ewing wrote:

The duplicate posts all seem to have this header:

Injection-Info: news.bbs.geek.nz; 
posting-host="M6YmRdZYyc42DJk0lNlt/X4dpP4dzvceBNabSmESN3E";

 logging-data="4415"; mail-complaints-to="ab...@news.bbs.geek.nz"

I've emailed the administrator of bbs.geek.nz, maybe he
will be able to stop it.



Thanks, Greg. We're actually blocking via that and related headers at 
the gateway, which is why the mailing list is no longer seeing the 
duplicates. I'm not sure any of us thought to email the news server 
admin, though!


TJG
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Re: unabe to import /pyd file.

[Tim Golden]

On 15/12/2017 09:58, supsw...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

I have created one library file
"modified_python_automation_tcl.py"..Inside my library file I have
set of codes as follows.

import sys import time from datetime import datetime import
re,sys,os,itertools,datetime,commands,logging,math,time,copy,inspect 
from robot.api import logger import unicodedata 
sys.path.append('C:\Python27\Lib\lib-tk') 
sys.path.append('C:\Python27\DLLs') 
sys.path.append('C:\Python27\libs') from Tkinter import Tcl tcl =


Apart from anything else these need to be raw strings:

sys.path.append(r'C:\Python27\Lib\lib-tk')

etc.

TJG
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Re: repeating posts

[Tim Golden]

On 09/12/2017 05:35, Rustom Mody wrote:

Repeating old posts again appearing

[No not complaining… I know people are working on it. Thanks Skip and whoever 
else]

Just thought I'd mention they are now mildly mojibaked



I've just added a new filter and pinged the other list admins / 
postmaster. The same thing on python-announce.


Still not sure if this is malicious or merely a misconfigured 
newsreader. Given the  mojibake, may well be the latter.


TJG
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Re: nospam ** infinity?

[Tim Golden]

On 28/11/2017 10:17, Thomas Jollans wrote:

On 2017-11-28 02:14, Skip Montanaro wrote:

I'm 99.5% certain it's not gate_news.


A funny thing. All messages I have looked at so far with the "nospam"
thing have a Message-ID from binkp.net. (They are also all Usenet
posts.) For example:

Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Subject: Re: I have anaconda, but Pycharm can't find it
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 22:40:00 +1200
Organization: Agency BBS, Dunedin - New Zealand | bbs.geek.nz
Message-ID: <1783215...@f38.n261.z1.binkp.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0

Any ideas how to investigate further?


No, but with this information they should be relatively easy to filter
out at the mail/news boundary, right? (It's not ideal, I know)


I've just added a block with a regex; they seem to come in batches, so I 
won't know until the next batch arrives whether I've been successful.


TJG
--
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Re: Increasing the diversity of people who write Python

[Tim Golden]

On 28/11/2017 08:41, Paul Moore wrote:

On 27 November 2017 at 19:05, Paul Moore  wrote:

On 27 November 2017 at 18:13, Skip Montanaro  wrote:

If you have a Windows key, you can assign it to be
the Compose key.


Would this be true on a machine running Windows? My work environment
has me developing on Linux, with a Windows desktop. It's not clear to
me that any sort of xmodmap shennanigans would work. Won't Windows
itself always gobble up that key?


Programs can access the Windows key. IIRC, there is a utility that
provides compose-key functionality on Windows. I can't recall the name
right now and it's on my other PC, not this one, but I'll try to
remember to post the name tomorrow...


WinCompose was the program - https://github.com/samhocevar/wincompose


And, if you wanted a Python-y solution:

http://timgolden.me.uk/python/win32_how_do_i/catch_system_wide_hotkeys.html

TJG
--
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Re: Easiest way to access C module in Python

[Tim Golden]

On 07/11/2017 14:20, bartc wrote:

On 07/11/2017 13:30, Thomas Jollans wrote:

On 2017-11-07 12:53, bartc wrote:

Having
said that, I located pip.exe, trying typing 'pip install cffi' and it
seemed to be doing something but then failed with a bunch of errors.)


So you're missing out on all of PyPI? That's tragic. You should really
try to fix that. I'm sure people on this list will be happy to help if
you start a new thread with some details of what is happening on your
system.


You've lost me. I had to look up pyPI and it's something to do with a 
Package Index. But I don't know how that relates to installing Cython.


Can I just step in now with my Moderator hat on and ask: please avoid a 
lengthy "educate Bart C about Python" thread. If anyone wants to take it 
up with him in private, that's up to you. But please leave it off the 
list / newsgroup.


Thanks

TJG
--
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Re: Compression of random binary data

[Tim Golden]

On 24/10/2017 16:40, Lele Gaifax wrote:

Steve D'Aprano  writes:


But given an empty file, how do you distinguish the empty file you get
from 'music.mp3' and the identical empty file you get from 'movie.avi'?


That's simple enough: of course one empty file would be
"music.mp3.zip.zip.zip", while the other would be


I swear this looks like the lyrics of something or another...

"Music MP3 - zip - zip - zip"

TJG
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Re: Want to write a python code for sending and receiving frames over wifi/wlan0 using python

[Tim Golden]

On 12/10/2017 09:08, T Obulesu wrote:

Hello all, I want to send some frames defined by me{Example,
[0x45,0x43,0x32]} to the raspberry pi from any
macine(Desktop/Laptop/other raspberry pi). But I want to send those
frames over wifi or use wlan0 using python Any suggestions?



Are you talking about literal network frames?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_(networking)

Or merely data which represents some kind of "frame" in your application?

ie are you looking for low-level control of the network device? Or
merely a way to transmit data across a network generally?

TJG
--
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Re: pathlib PurePosixPath

[Tim Golden]

On 2017-10-10 10:58, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:56 PM, Tim Golden <m...@timgolden.me.uk> 
wrote:

My understanding of the document you linked to
is that the colon still has special meaning, and thus you can't use 
it

in arbitrary file names.



In fact its presence in that filename creates a (usually hidden) data 
stream
piggybacked onto that file which has the name "abc" into which the 
data is

written.

So, following on, the follow works:

assert open("temp.txt:abc").read() == "abc"


Cool. Does it require that temp.txt exist first? And if you have
multiple colons (as in the OP's), does the part after the second colon
have to be a type indicator?

ChrisA


No. temp.txt is created empty.

Multiple colons *does* appear to be a syntax error in the filename.

TJG
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Re: pathlib PurePosixPath

[Tim Golden]

On 2017-10-10 10:28, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:22 PM, Tim Golden <m...@timgolden.me.uk> 
wrote:

On 2017-10-10 08:29, Chris Angelico wrote:


On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Sayth Renshaw 
<flebber.c...@gmail.com>

wrote:


Hi

How do I create a valid file name and directory with pathlib?

When I create it using PurePosixPath I end up with an OSError due to 
an

obvously invlaid path being created.



You're on Windows. The rules for POSIX paths don't apply to your file
system, and...


OSError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument:
'C:\\Users\\Sayth\\Projects\\results/Warwick 
Farm2017-09-06T00:00:00.json'



... the colon is invalid on Windows file systems. You'll have to
replace those with something else.



I haven't followed closely, so this may well not be an issue here, but 
the
colon is valid on a Windows file system; it introduces an alternate 
data

stream:

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa364404(v=vs.85).aspx

So this is perfectly valid on Windows:

with open("temp.txt:abc", "w") as f:
f.write("abc")


Have you tested that?


Yes. I ran it before posting.


My understanding of the document you linked to
is that the colon still has special meaning, and thus you can't use it
in arbitrary file names.


In fact its presence in that filename creates a (usually hidden) data 
stream piggybacked onto that file which has the name "abc" into which 
the data is written.


So, following on, the follow works:

assert open("temp.txt:abc").read() == "abc"

TJG
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Re: pathlib PurePosixPath

[Tim Golden]

On 2017-10-10 08:29, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Sayth Renshaw  
wrote:

Hi

How do I create a valid file name and directory with pathlib?

When I create it using PurePosixPath I end up with an OSError due to 
an obvously invlaid path being created.


You're on Windows. The rules for POSIX paths don't apply to your file
system, and...

OSError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument: 
'C:\\Users\\Sayth\\Projects\\results/Warwick 
Farm2017-09-06T00:00:00.json'


... the colon is invalid on Windows file systems. You'll have to
replace those with something else.


I haven't followed closely, so this may well not be an issue here, but 
the colon is valid on a Windows file system; it introduces an alternate 
data stream:


https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa364404(v=vs.85).aspx

So this is perfectly valid on Windows:

with open("temp.txt:abc", "w") as f:
f.write("abc")


TJG
--
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Re: The mysterious ways of Python mailing list

[Tim Golden]

On 29/09/2017 18:15, Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:
Is it a reason why my messages appears always a long time (today 9 
hours) on the list after I send it ?


Vincent,

Your address is being caught in our moderation traps for some reason. At 
the moment I'm away and on-line less than  usual. Perhaps the other 
moderators are likewise less available. So it took a while for anyone to 
get to your post. Often (especially on a working day) we'll get to a 
held post within minutes.


I'm not sure why you're being held; I'll try to see which filter you're 
tripping.


Please do keep posting!

TJG
--
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Re: Spacing conventions

[Tim Golden]

On 27/09/17 09:50, Bill wrote:

If you are teaching beginning students, do you expect them to try to
follow these sorts of conventions?  Is it perfectly fine to let
"taste" guide you (I'm just trying to get a feel for the philosophy
here)?   


I few years ago I wrote a few short blog posts about my own preferences 
which contrasted with the PEP8 standard:


http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2012/03/27/pep8-or-not/
http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2012/03/29/more-on-pep8/
http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2012/04/09/pep8-it-is-then/

The upshot was that, although I preferred my own style, I recognised the 
benefit of using a common standard -- although without being slavish to it!


FWIW I'd already been programming Python for some years when I wrote 
those posts: I wasn't just someone who'd discovered the language and had 
no idea about its conventions.


I think with a few more years of experience, both in Python and in other 
(mostly SQL) coding, a point I'd make is that having a common standard 
reduces cognitive jarring -- it reduces one small barrier to 
understanding someone else's code.


Of course, within any organisation, you can achieve that without using 
Python's own convention, but my final decision was that following the 
more universal Python convention was worthwhile for essentially the same 
reason.


TJG
--
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Re: Grumpy-pants spoil-sport [was Re: [Tutor] beginning to code]

[Tim Golden]

On 26/09/2017 15:16, Grant Edwards wrote:

On 2017-09-26, Ned Batchelder  wrote:

On 9/25/17 10:20 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 02:54 am, Ned Batchelder wrote:
[...]




We've been asked nicely by the list mod to stop :)


Perhaps we could agree on a subject line tag to be used in all threas
arguing about what to call the Python argument passing scheme?  That
way the other 99% of us could pre-emptively plonk it?


+100

:)

TJG

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Re: The Incredible Growth of Python (stackoverflow.blog)

[Tim Golden]

On 12/09/2017 12:20, Leam Hall wrote:
This is an area the Python community can improve on. Even I would 
encourage someone new to Python and wanting to do webdev to use Python 3.


But if someone comes onto the list, or IRC, and says they need to stay 
on Python 2 then please drop the dozens of e-mails and comments about 
upgrading. Help the person learn; that makes them happier with Python 
and when the time comes to switch to Python 3 they probably will.


My recent experience with some people's inability to take "Sorry, I 
can't" for an answer has been a real turn-off. I have requirements that 
dictate Python. If this was a personal venture I'd already be elsewhere 
purely because the Python community on the list and IRC is so unwelcoming.


I agree. Except for the unusual case where someone's mistakenly chosen 
to use, eg, Python 2.4 because they're using an old text book which 
mentions it as the current version, most people are using the version 
which suits them for one reason or another.


And, if I may put my 2.5p-worth in here, they're probably using the 
operating system which suits them. (Maybe because their employer has 
said so, or because they're familiar or whatever). So saying, as people 
occasionally do, "Upgrade to Linux", even with half-a-wink, is not 
really that funny or helpful.


That said, my experience of this list and other Python forums is that we 
don't do *too* badly at being friendly. However, what we do suffer from 
is an excess of technical helpfulness. In principle it's a good thing, 
but it can give rise to solving a problem with the OP doesn't have. One 
example of which is: over-egging the advantages of Python 3. ("How do I 
do X in Python 2.7?" "Why aren't you using Python 3"). Another might be: 
suggesting a toolkit they're not using. ("How do I use Tkinter to do 
blah?" "Use Pygame; it's much better").


Of course, such advice can certainly be helpful, eg pointing out the 
advantages of requests over urllib2 etc. But trying to answer their 
question as well as pointing out possible alternatives is probably more 
friendly.


TJG
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Re: Simple board game GUI framework

[Tim Golden]

On 11/09/2017 11:58, Paul Moore wrote:

I'm doing some training for a colleague on Python, and I want to look
at a bit of object orientation. For that, I'm thinking of a small
project to write a series of classes simulating objects moving round
on a chess-style board of squares.


Don't know if you've already thought of looking there, but have you 
tried poking around the Pygame examples pages, eg:


  http://www.pygame.org/tags/demos

(Obviously I hope that someone else will come forward with a specific 
example, but in case they don't...)


TJG
--
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Re: Reading the documentation

[Tim Golden]

On 26/08/2017 03:22, Rick Johnson wrote:

Steve D'Aprano wrote:

Rustom Mody wrote:

Ian wrote:

"Larry Martell"  wrote:
9:21 PM Rustom Mody wrote:

Statement 1: Aeroplanes fly. Statement 2: Submarines swim.
Are these two statements equally acceptable?  [Inspired
by a talk by Noam Chomsky]

There should be a corollary of Godwin's law for that
idiot.

[...]

[Larry seems to be angry about/at somethin'… No idea who/what…]


Chomsky challenges the prevailing world-view that the USA
is a force for good, by documenting the many, many, many
ways that the USA's actions are harmful, unjust, illegal
(occasionally all three at once) and in contradiction to
the nation's stated values. Many people don't like it when
you challenge their cherished myths.


Nor when you glorify their most hated enemy.


[... snip ...]

Unusually, I'd like to speak as one of the list owners and ask people to 
continue this thread of conversation elsewhere. We're quite tolerant to 
fairly off-topic side-threads here, but I think this one is going to 
generate more heat than light and it's not even tangentially on-topic.


So please feel free to have a private correspondence or to set 
follow-ups to some political debating group. But let it drop on this list.


Thanks

TJG
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Re: Express thanks

[Tim Golden]

On 21/08/2017 15:34, Hamish MacDonald wrote:

I wanted to give a shout out to the wonderfully passionate contributions to
python I've witnessed following this and   other mailing lists over the
last little bit.

The level of knowledge and willingness to help I've seen are truly
inspiring. Super motivating.

Probably the wrong forum for such a message but what the hey.


Late in replying, but: thank you for taking the trouble. Speaking both 
as a long-time list user, but also as one of the list owners/moderators.


We often enough hear people grumbling about things, but too rarely 
calling positive things out.


TJG
--
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Re: Recent Spam problem

[Tim Golden]

On 25/07/2017 06:13, Rustom Mody wrote:

Of late there has been an explosion of spam
Thought it was only a google-groups (USENET?) issue and would be barred from 
the mailing list.

But then find its there in the mailing list archives as well
Typical example: 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-July/724085.html

What gives??


Well, just for clarification: the spam measures on the list are at least 
partly manual. In this case, the spammer started to use a different 
address from the one we were trapping so it took until one of us (me, in 
this case) spotted the incoming spam before we were able to block it.


I almost never look at the GG mirror (or Usenet) so it wasn't until the 
post which started this thread that I realised just how much spam is 
being thrown at the newsgroup.


In case it wasn't clear to anyone: GG is actually a gateway to 
comp.lang.python which presents itself as a mailing list, while gmane 
(while it's still running) is a gateway to the python-list which 
presents itself as a newsgroup.


TJG
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[issue30979] the winapi fails to run shortcuts (because considers a shortcut not a valid Win32App)

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden added the comment:

For shell objects such as shortcuts you could use os.startfile which invokes 
ShellExecute under the covers

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Re: how to get partition information of a hard disk with python

[Tim Golden]

On 07/07/2017 07:18, palashkhair...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, September 22, 2010 at 4:01:04 AM UTC+5:30, Hellmut Weber wrote:

Hi list,
I'm looking for a possibility to access the partiton inforamtion of a
hard disk of my computer from within a python program.

Googling I found the module 'parted' but didn't see any possibility to
get the desired information.
Is there any reasonable documentation for the parted module?

Any idea is appreciated ;-)





import os
os.system("fdisk -l")
#you will get information about your hdd,partition



psutil is usually good for these sort of things:

http://pythonhosted.org/psutil/#disks

TJG
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Meta: double posts [Was: School Management System in Python]

[Tim Golden]

Are you posting both to python-list@python.org and to comp.lang.python 
-- and under different names?


If you are, please use one or the other: they mirror both ways, and 
we're seeing double posts which the gateway thinks are different because 
of a different sending address.


Thanks

TJG
--
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Re: School Management System in Python

[Tim Golden]

On 05/07/2017 13:49, Thomas Nyberg wrote:

On 07/05/2017 02:14 PM, Sam Chats wrote:

Thanks for your suggestions. I would've not used pickle had I been aware about 
other tools while developing this.
I was thinking about migrating to sqlite3. How about that? And yes, I need more 
comprehanesive documentation.
Will work on that soon.

Thanks,
Sam Chats


Personally I prefer text formats until I have some need to switch. That
way I can look at files directly instead of needing to unpickle or to
load up sqlite or whatever. It just seems like overkill when it's
unnecessary. Depending upon how you are updating data, using sqlite or
some database might make sense, but if you're just reading in or writing
out entire text files, then I'd just recommend skipping sqlite and
instead just writing to the files directly.


There's been some discussion recently on the Computing At School forums 
here in the UK where at least one teacher explained that they taught 
pickle in the way it's being used here essentially because it's really 
simple: you just through your object at .dump/.load and it's done. 
Otherwise you have to roll your own serialisation of some sort. Which 
might be simple but is yet another thing to introduce into an already 
busy curriculum.


TJG

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Re: Spammy spam spam spam spam

[Tim Golden]

On 04/07/2017 16:40, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 10:55 pm, Case Solution & Analysis wrote:


Our e-mail address is CASESOLUTIONSCENTRE (AT) GMAIL (DOT) COM. Please replace
(at) by @ and (dot) by .


Since we don't yet have a protocol for transmitting a punch to the face over
TCP/IP, is it be wrong of me to wish that some white knight hacker would DDOS
these spammy bastards until their supposed business goes broke?


At risk of annoying you further... we've been filtering them from the 
mailing list for a while now.


TJG
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[issue30731] Use correct executable manifest for windows

[Tim Golden]

Changes by Tim Golden <m...@timgolden.me.uk>:


--
components: +Windows
nosy: +paul.moore, steve.dower, tim.golden, zach.ware

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[issue22028] Python 3.4.1 Installer ended prematurely (Windows msi)

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden added the comment:

[Housekeeping] Closing this as fixed. The mimetypes fix is in; the 3.4 
installer is well out of support. If any other issues arise on current 
installers they should be raised as new issues.

--
resolution:  -> fixed
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed

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[issue8631] subprocess.Popen.communicate(...) hangs on Windows

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden added the comment:

I can't reproduce either on 2.7 or on 3.5 with any of the examples shown. 
Closing again as not-a-bug.

--
resolution:  -> not a bug
status: open -> closed
versions:  -Python 2.7, Python 3.4

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Re: Rosetta: Sequence of non-squares

[Tim Golden]

On 02/05/2017 11:18, Rhodri James wrote:

On 02/05/17 08:20, Mark Summerfield via Python-list wrote:


(The posts are already filtered out of the official comp.lang.python
list, but they can't do this for the Google Groups version.)


Careful! The posts are filtered out of the official Python mailing list,
but the comp.lang.python newsgroup is unmoderated and cannot do such
filtering.



True -- it's easy to get confused especially since Google Groups (which 
operates like a combined web forum / mailing list) is gatewayed to the 
newsgroup while Gmane (which operates like a newsgroup / web archive) is 
gatewayed to the mailing list!


TJG
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Re: Bigotry (you win, I give up)

[Tim Golden]

On 26/04/2017 08:00, m.n.summerfield--- via Python-list wrote:

Surely it is time to stop the "Robert L." emails?


We're currently blocking the "Robert L." emails through the list 
gateway. And -- barring one, which was passed through by mistake -- I've 
not seen any hit the list itself lately. They'll still appear on Usenet, 
which will include Google Groups.


If you think the filter isn't working please drop a line to the list 
owners: python-list-ow...@python.org


TJG
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[issue30161] Using `with` statement causes dict to start papering over attribute errors

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden added the comment:

I think you're suppressing sys.stderr after the "with". Try a NameError 
or anything.

Alternatively, try a "with" which isn't using sys.stderr

Obviously, the next question is why *that's* happening.

--
nosy: +tim.golden

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Re: Moderating the list [was: Python and the need for speed]

[Tim Golden]

On 13/04/2017 03:39, Jason Friedman wrote:


However, it's simply a technical fact: the thing which we moderate is the

mailing list. We can control which posts make it through from the newsgroup
by blocking them at the gateway. But the posts will continue to appear on
comp.lang.python which is, as the description says, unmoderated.



TJG



Thank you, Tim and Ethan and the other moderators, for performing that
function.
It makes the reading experience more pleasant for me.



I looked, for the first time in a long while, at the GG mirror of the 
newsgroup. Hadn't realised how much of that really nasty all-caps spam 
we were blocking. (We set up some gateway rules when that started to 
become a problem so we just don't see it on the mailing list).


Most of the time we're just binning run-of-the-mill spam. Doesn't take 
too much effort if you keep on top of it, but it piles up quickly enough 
if you leave it for a bit!


TJG
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Moderating the list [was: Python and the need for speed]

[Tim Golden]

On 11/04/2017 15:20, breamore...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 2:32:34 PM UTC+1, Steve D'Aprano
wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:00 pm, breamoreboy wrote:


While we're at it how do we go about changing this
https://www.python.org/community/lists/ which states that
"comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet open (not moderated)
newsgroup for general discussions and questions about Python."?


Change it to what, and why?

As it is, it is correct. comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet
unmoderated newsgroup for general discussions related to Python.

-- Steve “Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I
cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse.





What exactly do Tim Golden and Ethan Furman moderate on?


We (and the other moderators) exactly moderate the mailing list. I have 
no authority over the newsgroup, and I don't know who does.



You
can be pedantic about what is a newsgroup, or mailing list, or
whatever, but to me they're one and the same thing.


This is something which can cause contention as people from either side 
(mailing list <-> newsgroup) can be completely unaware that they're 
being copied to the other.


However, it's simply a technical fact: the thing which we moderate is 
the mailing list. We can control which posts make it through from the 
newsgroup by blocking them at the gateway. But the posts will continue 
to appear on comp.lang.python which is, as the description says, 
unmoderated.


TJG
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Re: Python and the need for speed

[Tim Golden]

On 11/04/2017 00:33, Chris Angelico wrote:

If he does, it might be the final thing that gets him banned from the
mailing list.


A meta-note, since I happen to have seen this email come up.

I don't know about the other list moderators, but I don't personally 
follow every sprawling thread and post on the look-out for offensive 
behaviour. Can I suggest, if anyone believes that there is a case for 
suspending someone from the list, that they email the List Owner whose 
address is at the bottom of:


  https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

and point out the behaviour they believe merits suspension or a warning 
or whatever. We can then confer between ourselves and decide what action 
to take.


Thanks

TJG


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Re: What's the neatest way of getting dictionary entries in a specified order?

[Tim Golden]

On 08/03/2017 22:10, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 8:25 AM, Chris Green  wrote:

Chris Angelico  wrote:

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Chris Green  wrote:

dbcol['firstname'] = col('First Name', True, False)
dbcol['lastname'] = col('Last Name', True, False)


http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/


Yes, I'm well aware of these issues, but it's my personal address book
so I can avoid many/most of them.


So you assume that you'll never meet someone from another culture?
Okay. I'm pretty sure that counts as bigoted, but sure :)


Chris: I think that remark was uncalled for. You'd made a perfectly 
valid point about names not always working how we think. At that point, 
I think it's up to each person to decide their own approach based on 
their own knowledge of their own circumstances.


TJG
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Re: Who still supports recent Python on shared hosting

[Tim Golden]

On 06/03/2017 02:39, John Nagle wrote:

I'm looking for shared hosting that supports
at least Python 3.4.

Hostgator: Highest version is Python 3.2.
Dreamhost: Highest version is Python 2.7.
Bluehost: Install Python yourself.
InMotion: Their documentation says 2.6.

Is Python on shared hosting dead?
I don't need a whole VM and something I
have to sysadmin, just a small shared
hosting account.


webfaction.com

TJG

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[issue29624] Python 3.5.3 x86 web installer cannot install launcher

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden added the comment:

Since the webmaster@ address tends to bear the brunt of these, can I 
make sure I understand the situation?

* The only installers affected are those for x86/32-bit Windows 3.5.3

* By default [I just checked] the launcher checkbox is not checked

* If it *is* checked by the user, the entire install will abort

* If it is left unchecked, the install will succeed and it is then 
possible to run the x64 installer and select only the installer option.

Is there a possibility of producing a repaired installer? And/or should 
we hide that specific set of installers for the moment?

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Re: Repeating of posts

[Tim Golden]

On 10/02/2017 16:20, Rob Gaddi wrote:

On 02/10/2017 07:25 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:

On 2017-02-10, Cecil Westerhof  wrote:


I see a lot of post delivered multiple times. Is that a problem at my
side, or are others experiencing this also?


I see it too.  Same as a a month or two back, but not as much.




I pinged Wolfgang, who runs eternal-september, and he figured out why
comp.lang.python has been getting all those weird echos from
f38.n261.nz, hunted down the malefactor and put a stop to it. So that
part of the problem should at least be fixed.



Thanks very much. We've been filtering them out at the gateway to the 
mailing list as a practical expedient, but we hadn't got as far as 
trying to find the source.


TJG
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[issue29525] Python 2.7.13 for Windows broken (from prompt)

[Tim Golden]

Tim Golden added the comment:

Although I don't remember seeing a crash out as quick as this, common 
causes for this kind of thing are to do with environment variables 
pointing to still-existing or part-existing installations. Can you try:

set PY

from a command prompt, please, to see if any Python-related env vars are 
present. (Typically PYTHONHOME is the culprit)

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Re: Meta: mailing list, bounces, and SPF?

[Tim Golden]

On 03/02/2017 18:15, Tim Chase wrote:

However, despite seeing messages appearing in the online archives,
I'm not receiving anything via email.  When I send a "subscribe"
message to mailman, it responds telling me that I'm already
subscribed (and checking the settings on the web interface confirm
that everything should be flowing).


Your email address had been tagged to receive no mail because of the 
bounces mailman was getting. (At least, I think that's what it was). 
I've cleared that now so you should be getting new emails via the list 
-- including this one!


TJG

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Re: learning and experimenting python.

[Tim Golden]

On 02/01/17 06:40, Ian Kelly wrote:

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 12:15 AM, Ian Kelly  wrote:

Since they're unlikely to do that however,


Then again, I see that einstein1410 made a couple of rather aggressive
posts 11 hours ago that haven't made it to my email, so maybe he did
manage to get himself banned.



We are holding (and, so far, dropping) posts from that address. FWIW I 
concur with an earlier poster that the person in question is simply 
ill-informed rather than deliberately provocative. I have sympathy with 
their initial ignorance; less with their apparent inability to learn 
from other people's well-intentioned comments.


Probably best to let the thing drop rather than let it escalate into a 
sniping war. If anyone reading this knows the poster in person, please 
help them to see how their posts have come across and whey they received 
the reaction they did.


TJG
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