Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Mark Lawrence via python-uk]

On 07/12/2016 13:20, Andy Robinson wrote:

I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd
years.  Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away.

I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List",
that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code
of Conduct, and must be respected.

To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I  hereby
propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve.
Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement.
Suggestions welcome on this thread

Be pure.  Be vigilant.  Behave!

- Andy



No chance.  I don't accept anything from flaming Northerners, what with 
their dark, satanic mills everywhere and not a blade of green grass to 
be seen anywhere.  Us Southerners, especially the autistic ones like wot 
I am, reserve the right to throw our toys out of the pram occasionally. 
And more importantly, our beer is vastly superior to yours, so up yours :)


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[John Lee]

Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that 
there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters.


So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, 
I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to 
not allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think 
simplicity is a virtue here).  Then rogue job ads can be responded to on 
that strictly technical basis, and there will be fewer ads to cause strife 
in the first place.


On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Marcelo Elias Del Valle wrote:


Hello,

This is my first message to this list and I am sad the first message is not
about python... But as you're talking about code of conduct, I would like
to suggest something that has worked very well for me in other groups I
participate.
Personally, I don't like CoC much, because it's easy to turn it bureaucracy
and make people not comfortable in giving their opinions, which is not
usually what we desire. Absence of rules, though, is always bad.

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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[S Walker]

Sorry, this year has been all too evil for me.

2016: Disowned by Sith.

S

On 07/12/16 17:03, Andy Robinson wrote:
> On 7 December 2016 at 16:14, S Walker  wrote:
>> Darth SW
> 
> Hey, Darth, fancy being our Brexit negotiator?  Or military liaison to
> the US of A?
> ___
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> 

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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Andy Robinson]

On 7 December 2016 at 16:14, S Walker  wrote:
> Darth SW

Hey, Darth, fancy being our Brexit negotiator?  Or military liaison to
the US of A?
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Russel Winder]

On Wed, 2016-12-07 at 14:05 +, Steve Holden wrote:
> But perhaps an apt threat to anyone who gets out of hand. I'm sure we
> can
> find room for a Comfy Chair somewhere when someone needs a Good
> Talking To.
>  S

s/Chair/Cushion/

-- 
Russel.
=
Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[S Walker]

> 
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Cory Benfield (Lukasa)
> mailto:lukas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> and as we know, only Sith deal in absolutes
> 
> 
> Are you absolutely sure about that?

I am.

Yours,
Darth SW
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Cory Benfield (Lukasa)]

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 16:09, Steve Holden  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Cory Benfield (Lukasa)  > wrote:
> and as we know, only Sith deal in absolutes
> 
> Are you absolutely sure about that?

Don’t ask me, ask Obi Wan: https://youtu.be/kVu_yMEhUfM___
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) 
wrote:

> and as we know, only Sith deal in absolutes


Are you absolutely sure about that?

Steve Holden
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Thomas Kluyver]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 03:31 PM, Daniel Pope wrote:

> Right, so we're in the ridiculous situation where there are stricter
> standards in what can be posted to this ML than who can be US
> president.


This year has certainly generated a whole lot of ridiculous situations.
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Re: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..?

[Nicholas H.Tollervey]

Afternoon...

Async related stuff was something I thought about mentioning to the
person who asked me (but it was made clear these were non-technical
things they wanted to watch) so dropped it.

Now that micro:bit is both slowing down and speeding up in different
ways I'm trying to find time to work on my DHT project (drogulus) and
migrate it to the new syntax. Who knows, I may even get it to actually
work. ;-)

N.

On 07/12/16 12:20, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote:
> 
>> On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:24, Nicholas H.Tollervey 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch
>> out for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..?
> 
> For my part, I think there’s a lot of really interesting work going
> on in the asynchronous networking space in Python, both in terms of
> the literal work people are doing but also in terms of the technical
> discussions being had.
> 
> The most interesting single technical development in this space was
> probably the introduction of the ‘async’ and ‘await’ keywords in
> Python 3.5. Even though these followed on from the introduction of
> asyncio, they accidentally provided a much richer API that allowed
> for experiments like David Beazley’s curio[0] project. This has
> managed to provide a new lease on life for the development of
> protocol stacks and APIs for asynchrony.
> 
> There’s lots of great work going on in this space, and it’s really
> refreshing to see Python become one of the foremost languages for
> investigating new methods of managing concurrency.
> 
> While I’m here I’ll also note PyPy 3.5 as being a huge project that
> I’m really looking forward to. PyPy has been one of the biggest
> reasons for me to still be Python 2.7-first, so having an opportunity
> to have a really fast interpreter with Python 3.5’s features is a
> huge thrill.
> 
> Cory
> 
> 
> [0]: https://github.com/dabeaz/curio 
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> 




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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Daniel Pope]

Right, so we're in the ridiculous situation where there are stricter
standards in what can be posted to this ML than who can be US president.

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 14:30 Hansel Dunlop,  wrote:

> It could certainly be violated by embodying his behaviour  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>
> h
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Daniel Pope  wrote:
>
> Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting
> Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump?
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 13:21 Andy Robinson,  wrote:
>
> I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd
> years.  Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away.
>
> I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List",
> that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code
> of Conduct, and must be respected.
>
> To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I  hereby
> propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve.
> Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement.
> Suggestions welcome on this thread
>
> Be pure.  Be vigilant.  Behave!
>
> - Andy
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> ___
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Hansel
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Stestagg]

I think we submitted Guido for consideration, but did so using a byte
string rather than Unicode, so the submission got rejected ;)
On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 15:05, Jon Ribbens 
wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 02:15:27PM +, Daniel Pope wrote:
> >Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately
> quoting
> >Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump?
>
> I don't see why not; "Time Person of the Year" doesn't mean that the
> recipient is a "good person", it just means they've had a significant
> effect on the events of that year. Adolf Hitler was "Person of the
> Year". Osama bin Laden only wasn't Person of the Year because Time
> chickened out.
>
> ObPythonContent: Guido for PotY next year? ;-)
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Jon Ribbens]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 02:15:27PM +, Daniel Pope wrote:
>Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting
>Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump? 

I don't see why not; "Time Person of the Year" doesn't mean that the
recipient is a "good person", it just means they've had a significant
effect on the events of that year. Adolf Hitler was "Person of the
Year". Osama bin Laden only wasn't Person of the Year because Time
chickened out.

ObPythonContent: Guido for PotY next year? ;-)
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Hansel Dunlop]

It could certainly be violated by embodying his behaviour  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

h

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Daniel Pope  wrote:

> Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting
> Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump?
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 13:21 Andy Robinson,  wrote:
>
>> I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd
>> years.  Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away.
>>
>> I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List",
>> that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code
>> of Conduct, and must be respected.
>>
>> To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I  hereby
>> propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve.
>> Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement.
>> Suggestions welcome on this thread
>>
>> Be pure.  Be vigilant.  Behave!
>>
>> - Andy
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>
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>


-- 

Hansel
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Cory Benfield (Lukasa)]

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 14:15, Daniel Pope  wrote:
> 
> Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting Time 
> Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump? 

I’d say that depending on the context of the quote and the specific content, 
certainly.

For example, if you were using Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump to provide 
supporting evidence for an assertion that people of some nationalities were 
more likely to be sexual offenders, then I think you’d find that the quote 
violates the CoC. In particular, I should note that Time Person-of-the-Year 
Donald Trump is frequently not Respectful. That means that he would frequently 
be in violation of this Code of Conduct were he a member of the Python 
community.

But as always, context matters. Anyone claiming that quoting Time POTY Donald 
Trump is *always* ok or *always* forbidden is dealing in absolutes, and as we 
know, only Sith deal in absolutes.

Cory
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[python-uk] London Python Project Nights (Build Something)

[Alistair Broomhead]

Hey all!

It's that time again, next Wednesday (14th) will be our December meet up.
This month we're being hosted by the people at thesquareapp.com who have
kindly offered to provide food and drinks.

RSVP at:
https://www.meetup.com/London-Python-Project-Nights/events/236073711/

Thanks,

Al
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Daniel Pope]

Idle thought: can the code of conduct be violated by accurately quoting
Time Person-of-the-Year Donald Trump?

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 13:21 Andy Robinson,  wrote:

> I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd
> years.  Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away.
>
> I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List",
> that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code
> of Conduct, and must be respected.
>
> To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I  hereby
> propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve.
> Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement.
> Suggestions welcome on this thread
>
> Be pure.  Be vigilant.  Behave!
>
> - Andy
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Andy Robinson]

It would actually be quite a good Mailman feature to be able to put a
user "on watch" for N days, and prepend a first line to their messages
henceforth saying "The 
Inquisition is watching this user.  They need to mind their manners".
  The 10 minute sin-bin works better in sports than red cards.

- Andy
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Steve Holden]

But perhaps an apt threat to anyone who gets out of hand. I'm sure we can
find room for a Comfy Chair somewhere when someone needs a Good Talking To.
 S

Steve Holden

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Andy Robinson  wrote:

> On 7 December 2016 at 13:52, Steve Holden  wrote:
> > Me least of all. Had I been consulted I would have said that I am not a
> > suitable person to be enforcing CoCs and (in case you didn't get the
> message
> > earlier) I agree with Andy that the Python CoC will suffice.
>
> It was an attempt at a joke.  "Yorkshire Inquisition" just popped into
> my head.  Don't worry, it can remain entirely fictional.
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Andy Robinson]

Hmmm.  Seems eminently feasible.

  
https://pythonhosted.org/mailman/src/mailman/docs/8-miles-high.html#basic-messaging-handling-workflow

- Andy
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Andy Robinson]

On 7 December 2016 at 13:52, Steve Holden  wrote:
> Me least of all. Had I been consulted I would have said that I am not a
> suitable person to be enforcing CoCs and (in case you didn't get the message
> earlier) I agree with Andy that the Python CoC will suffice.

It was an attempt at a joke.  "Yorkshire Inquisition" just popped into
my head.  Don't worry, it can remain entirely fictional.
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Stestagg]

Perhaps offenders could have their words replaced by the server with
suitably contrite Monty Python quotes.

I believe the Knights who say ni have a particularly apt vocabulary.
On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 13:47, Andy Robinson  wrote:

On 7 December 2016 at 13:36, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:
> Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language
> features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may
> be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them
> using while instead.

Hmm.  Methinks we could implement a list filter, requiring strict
pep-8 compliance of the any future message from offending senders.
They would have to post in code.  Maybe even with python 3 print
syntax.  The possibilities are endless...
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Re: [python-uk] Code of Conduct

[Gilberto Gonçalves]

Unfortunately I'll have to agree with this too, I was surprised to see that
thread happening here.

One thing that is missing on the CoC for Python is actually what happens
when situations like this arise.

It just says that we will be respectful, well, that didn't happen, how can
we prevent it from happening in the future?

Cheers,
Gil

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Daniele Procida  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Kaitlyn Tierney  wrote:
>
> >I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
> >Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process
> >for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction?
>
> Unfortunately I think we need a code of conduct too.
>
> As Steve Holden points out, we're already covered by <
> https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>.
>
> If anyone feels that the standards of courtesy, tact, respect described
> there are too burdensome for them, now is probably a good time to
> reconsider whether they can continue to participate here.
>
> Daniele
>
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 01:20 PM, Andy Robinson wrote:
> > To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I  hereby
> > propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve.
>
> I don't think anybody expected that!
>
> Me least of all. Had I been consulted I would have said that I am not a
suitable person to be enforcing CoCs and (in case you didn't get the
message earlier) I agree with Andy that the Python CoC will suffice. But I
know full well from my experience that to go too far down this road
inevitably invites a schism between the "freewheelers" (my category for
those whose happy life circumstances allow them to regard being offended as
part and parcel of a fully-lived life) and the "enforcers" (those who would
like specific punishments for specific offences. And I want no part of a
battle between these two poles. I don't really enjoy being a member of
polarised groups much at all.

So, seriously, honoured and all that but you will have to look for an
Enforcer elsewhere. I'm nobody's good example.

> Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement.
> > Suggestions welcome on this thread
>
> Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language
> features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may
> be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them
> using while instead.


You are optimistic about the powers of enforcement. I believe the CoC does
allow list managers to ban people after suitable warnings. But I'm not a
list manager and have no pretensions to being one.

definitely-not-your-enforcer-ly yr's -  Steve

Steve Holden
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Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Andy Robinson]

On 7 December 2016 at 13:36, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:
> Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language
> features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may
> be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them
> using while instead.

Hmm.  Methinks we could implement a list filter, requiring strict
pep-8 compliance of the any future message from offending senders.
They would have to post in code.  Maybe even with python 3 print
syntax.  The possibilities are endless...
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Re: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 18

[Andy Idiaghe]

To be fairly honest I for one agree with both parties. Having a CoC for an
email list is a silly idea and brings literally nothing to the table.

Now I do think Richard proved that ppl can be rude or "offensive" on the
web to a certain degree, but I do think he makes fair points about the
initial post.

I don't believe the recruiter was guilt free, as the post was clearly spam.
And yes I would have referred to Sophie as "the recruiter" as well because
I don't (personally) care about the gender or whatever but I do care about
what she was trying to convey.

It's 2017 guys (*sighs* and girls), getting offended over words on the
Internet is ridiculous imho. Take a walk or something.

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:18 PM,  wrote:

> Send python-uk mailing list submissions to
> python-uk@python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of python-uk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re:  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k
>   (Steve Holden)
>2. Re:  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k
>   (Steve Holden)
>3. Re:  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k
>   (Thomas Kluyver)
>4. Re:  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k (Pepper R.)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:49:15 +
> From: Steve Holden 
> To: UK Python Users 
> Subject: Re: [python-uk]  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to
> ?95k
> Message-ID:
>  gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Great heavens, I'd have thought it was obvious that anyone telling a woman
> to "get a pair of balls" clearly has trouble perceiving women and men
> through the same set of filters. And now you involve the deity, albeit as a
> free variable. Then you interpret civil (though critical) comments about
> your behaviour (rather than about you) as personal bullying.
>
> I am struggling to understand your world view.  S
>
> Steve Holden
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Richard Smith 
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 12:33 Daniele Procida  wrote:
> >
> >> So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by
> being
> >> a man.
> >>
> >> I see Sophie's problem all too clearly.
> >
> >
> > *blink*[0]
> >
> > Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Let me
> > rephrase for your benefit[1]:
> >
> > For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow up and talk to people.
> >
> > Now who's getting personal and going off on the bullying. That's
> enough...
> > I'm out of here.
> >
> >  ~ Rich
> >
> > [0] I know, I said I wouldn't contribute further, but this entire
> response
> > requires something
> > [1] I honestly can't believe you think *that* has any bearing on my
> > opinion or thinking.
> >
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>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:51:03 +
> From: Steve Holden 
> To: UK Python Users 
> Subject: Re: [python-uk]  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to
> ?95k
> Message-ID:
>  gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Richard Barran <
> rich...@arbee-design.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > I am reading your last 2 sentences and I hope I?m horribly
> > misunderstanding your post; I?m reading that you are implying that I was
> > picking on someone?s disability. Could you just confirm that I?ve got it
> > completely wrong?
> >
>
> I'd have thought that was meant as a general injunction to us all rather
> than guidance intended for you personally. But other interpretations are
> possible. Personally I try to err on the side o ft

Re: [python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Thomas Kluyver]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 01:20 PM, Andy Robinson wrote:
> To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I  hereby
> propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve.

I don't think anybody expected that!

> Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement.
> Suggestions welcome on this thread

Give the inquisition the power to restrict someone's use of language
features. For instance, in a relatively mild incident, the heretic may
be banned from using for loops for a month, and have to emulate them
using while instead.

Thomas
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Marcelo Elias Del Valle]

Hello,

This is my first message to this list and I am sad the first message is not
about python... But as you're talking about code of conduct, I would like
to suggest something that has worked very well for me in other groups I
participate.
Personally, I don't like CoC much, because it's easy to turn it bureaucracy
and make people not comfortable in giving their opinions, which is not
usually what we desire. Absence of rules, though, is always bad.

I other groups, we have this simple rule: you can offend any idea, you
can't offend any people.

   - Anything you say offending an idea, like "Django is a piece of crap",
   "Mac is a devil operating system", "What you're saying is stupid", etc., is
   allowed.
   - Anything you say offending someone, like "You must be stupid to say
   something like this", "Don't defend Ruby, people who like ruby are
   incompetent", "Either you have a degree or your opinion is not worth being
   heard" can lead to kick you out.

If you think a code of conduct is needed to stop people from sending jobs
offers, this is another story and a separate subject, as a message with a
job offer wouldn't justify any personal attack. But I don't think anything
more than the above is needed as a rule for a mailing list. Usually members
auto organize themselves in ML without any complicated list of conduct.

Best regards,
Marcelo.


On 7 December 2016 at 13:12, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>
> 
> ...
> For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk to people.
>
> ...
> > Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is.
>
> Now you are unquestionably being rude to first Cory, then Daniele. The
> more messages like this I see, the more I agree that a code of conduct is
> necessary. If you don't think CoCs are necessary, please demonstrate that
> by remaining civil in the absence of one.
>
> Thomas
>
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-- 
Marcelo Elias Del Valle
http://mvalle.com - @mvallebr
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[python-uk] Announcing the Yorkshire Inquisition

[Andy Robinson]

I believe I am one of the original founding list admins, after 20-odd
years.  Sadly, the other, John Pinner, has passed away.

I therefore decree, as self-appointed "Benevolent Dictator for List",
that the Python CoC established by Steve Holden IS the official Code
of Conduct, and must be respected.

To enforce good conduct in a suitably Pythonic manner, I  hereby
propose the foundation of the Yorkshire Inquisition, headed by Steve.
Such an institution will have truly terrifying powers of enforcement.
Suggestions welcome on this thread

Be pure.  Be vigilant.  Behave!

- Andy
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Pepper R .]

Once again, the volume of discussion on whether recruitment emails are 
appropriate for the list is larger than the volume of recruitment emails we get 
on this list




On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:19 AM +, "Daniele Procida" 
mailto:dani...@vurt.org>> wrote:

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, Richard Smith  wrote:

>However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I
>object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently
>added the OP to my shitlist in GApps).

It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment messages 
are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that they are not.

>It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post
>and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish
>biting.
>
>Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As
>it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents.

This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on this 
email list.

Daniele

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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Thomas Kluyver]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Richard Smith wrote:

> 

> ...

> For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk
> to people.
...

> Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is.



Now you are unquestionably being rude to first Cory, then Daniele. The
more messages like this I see, the more I agree that a code of conduct
is necessary. If you don't think CoCs are necessary, please demonstrate
that by remaining civil in the absence of one.


Thomas
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Richard Barran 
wrote:

> I am reading your last 2 sentences and I hope I’m horribly
> misunderstanding your post; I’m reading that you are implying that I was
> picking on someone’s disability. Could you just confirm that I’ve got it
> completely wrong?
>

I'd have thought that was meant as a general injunction to us all rather
than guidance intended for you personally. But other interpretations are
possible. Personally I try to err on the side o fth emost charitable, in
the interests of keeping email volumes down ;-)

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Steve Holden]

Great heavens, I'd have thought it was obvious that anyone telling a woman
to "get a pair of balls" clearly has trouble perceiving women and men
through the same set of filters. And now you involve the deity, albeit as a
free variable. Then you interpret civil (though critical) comments about
your behaviour (rather than about you) as personal bullying.

I am struggling to understand your world view.  S

Steve Holden

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Richard Smith  wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 12:33 Daniele Procida  wrote:
>
>> So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by being
>> a man.
>>
>> I see Sophie's problem all too clearly.
>
>
> *blink*[0]
>
> Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Let me
> rephrase for your benefit[1]:
>
> For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow up and talk to people.
>
> Now who's getting personal and going off on the bullying. That's enough...
> I'm out of here.
>
>  ~ Rich
>
> [0] I know, I said I wouldn't contribute further, but this entire response
> requires something
> [1] I honestly can't believe you think *that* has any bearing on my
> opinion or thinking.
>
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Richard Barran]

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 12:49, Alistair Broomhead  
> wrote:
> 
> I would prefer not to hold other people to a higher standard than I hold 
> myself. I know I'm certainly guilty of sending an email in a rush before, and 
> later seeing that it wasn't perfect. 

It happens to everyone; a simple “Oops, sorry, should have re-read before 
posting” should be enough to smooth any ruffled feathers.

> The matter of the email's spelling being raked up again and again, when 
> Sophie has apologised for it, and pointed out that this is something she 
> struggles with on account of her disability, quite frankly stinks of ableism, 
> which I have no time for.
> This community has a reputation for being inclusive and friendly. Picking on 
> someone's disability is a great way to destroy that reputation. Please don’t.

I am reading your last 2 sentences and I hope I’m horribly misunderstanding 
your post; I’m reading that you are implying that I was picking on someone’s 
disability. Could you just confirm that I’ve got it completely wrong?

> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 11:44 Richard Barran  > wrote:
> 
> > On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:49, Daniele Procida  > > wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith  > > wrote:
> >
> >> What was rude about it?
> >
> > Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude.
> >
> >> Sophie is
> >> going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent.
> >
> > Sophie doesn't have to prove anything. All she has to do is use the list in 
> > accordance with its agreed purposes, politely.
> >
> 
> I have to disagree; using a list in accordance with its agreed purpose, or 
> with a code of conduct, or whatever, is not enough.
> The people who subscribe to this list are busy; we all have lives, jobs, 
> families, unreasonable bosses, tiring commutes, sick and elderly parents, etc…
> Someone who requests our attention and time should respect that time, that 
> attention that we are giving them.
> 
> The recruiter who started this thread has posted several times before to this 
> list; looking at her previous posts, they are well formatted, explain 
> succinctly the jobs on offer, and provide enough information for me to decide 
> if I want to contact her for more information (and just in case my boss is 
> reading this: no, I’m not *actually* reading the job ads in detail!).
> 
> This latest post, however, was frankly lazy:
> - typo in the title.
> - a list of technologies that’s badly copy-and-pasted (e.g “Postgre”) as well 
> as showing poor understanding of the subject area (“tech stack” includes 
> “APIs”. Err, come again?).
> 
> The OP has proven that "that she can be a trusted agent” (to quote from 
> Richard Smith’s email) in the past.
> However, trust and respect is not something that is earned once and for all - 
> if I start spouting rubbish, I can expect to be called out on it, not matter 
> how much respect (or “browny points”) I might have earned in the past. And I 
> think that this should apply to anyone who posts to a mailing list.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Richard Smith]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 12:33 Daniele Procida  wrote:

> So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by being
> a man.
>
> I see Sophie's problem all too clearly.


*blink*[0]

Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Let me
rephrase for your benefit[1]:

For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow up and talk to people.

Now who's getting personal and going off on the bullying. That's enough...
I'm out of here.

 ~ Rich

[0] I know, I said I wouldn't contribute further, but this entire response
requires something
[1] I honestly can't believe you think *that* has any bearing on my opinion
or thinking.
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[python-uk] Code of Conduct

[Daniele Procida]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Kaitlyn Tierney  wrote:

>I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
>Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process
>for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction?

Unfortunately I think we need a code of conduct too.

As Steve Holden points out, we're already covered by 
.

If anyone feels that the standards of courtesy, tact, respect described there 
are too burdensome for them, now is probably a good time to reconsider whether 
they can continue to participate here.

Daniele

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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Daniele Procida]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith  wrote:

>
>
>For future reference, I did criticise the work... and was then accused of
>being rude about my personal summary dismissal of the quality of the
>recruiter based on the evidence available.
>
>Furthermore a CoC is not the way forward. CoC's validate the passive
>agaressive stance on interpersonal communications. For getattr(universe,
>'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk to people.

So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by being a man.

I see Sophie's problem all too clearly.

Daniele

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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Steve Holden]

Since this list is run via a python.org server I'd imagine there's at least
implicit consent by members to the Python Community Code of Conduct at
https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/. The three headings are "Open,"
"Considerate" and "Respectful". Clearly there is no agreement on those
terms and whether they can be applied to specific commnications. Without
such agreement no commonly acceptable standard of behaviour can be
established.

If anyone feels the need to start discussions on any other CoC than the one
linked above I will, having spent almost two years of my life establishing
the PSF Diversity Statement and Code of Conduct, leave this list rather
than filter out the correspondence. Take it from one who knows, while the
aim is laudable you have many better things to do with your time. Of course
it's entirely possible this will cause greater numbers to agitate FOR a new
CoC ...

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Nick Murdoch  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:57:51AM +, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote:
> > I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
> Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for
> enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction?
>
> +1
>
> > Kaitlyn
> >
> > > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a
> little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the
> world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake
> candidates and many underhanded activities.
> > >
> > > What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself:
> > >
> > >> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making
> the post
> > >> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some
> fish
> > >> biting.
> > >>
> > >> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more
> accommodating. As
> > >> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents.
> > >
> > > In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and
> opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the
> best of other people. They judge a human being’s actions through the lens
> of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is
> rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I’m here, I should
> note that your claim that you weren’t being rude is followed by a
> discussion about “bad agents […] who think it’s acceptable to cold-call,
> spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities”,
> when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough
> evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming.
> > >
> > > Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt
> with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and
> moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter
> behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether
> recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However,
> you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the
> messenger. And if I’m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to
> criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you
> aren’t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the
> mailing list will call you out when you do it.
> > >
> > > This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct
> in place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people
> having apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had
> on either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself
> required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to
> have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed
> because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that’s your
> position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which
> allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should
> not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that
> comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*.
> > >
> > > Cory
> > > ___
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Re: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..?

[Cory Benfield (Lukasa)]

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:24, Nicholas H.Tollervey  wrote:
> 
> Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch out
> for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..?

For my part, I think there’s a lot of really interesting work going on in the 
asynchronous networking space in Python, both in terms of the literal work 
people are doing but also in terms of the technical discussions being had.

The most interesting single technical development in this space was probably 
the introduction of the ‘async’ and ‘await’ keywords in Python 3.5. Even though 
these followed on from the introduction of asyncio, they accidentally provided 
a much richer API that allowed for experiments like David Beazley’s curio[0] 
project. This has managed to provide a new lease on life for the development of 
protocol stacks and APIs for asynchrony.

There’s lots of great work going on in this space, and it’s really refreshing 
to see Python become one of the foremost languages for investigating new 
methods of managing concurrency.

While I’m here I’ll also note PyPy 3.5 as being a huge project that I’m really 
looking forward to. PyPy has been one of the biggest reasons for me to still be 
Python 2.7-first, so having an opportunity to have a really fast interpreter 
with Python 3.5’s features is a huge thrill.

Cory


[0]: https://github.com/dabeaz/curio
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Re: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..?

[Thomas Hunger]

I'm cautiously optimistic about http://mypy-lang.org/ though I'd prefer not
to have values as type annotations.

I think the JS community demonstrated that retrofitting types can be done
in a principled and nice way with TypeScript and flow so maybe we can do
that, too.




On 7 December 2016 at 11:24, Nicholas H.Tollervey  wrote:

> I've been asked to answer this. I've already replied but I wonder what
> the wider community think..?
>
> My response mentioned:
>
> * MicroPython bringing Python to embedded / IoT communities (and such
> communities into the Python world).
>
> * Python 2 / Python 3 (a perennial)
>
> * Python in education: with the micro:bit, Calliope (German micro:bit)
> and Adafruit all settling on MicroPython lots of kids and teachers will
> be learning Python next year. Also viz RPi - now the most successful
> computing in education project in history if measured in terms of
> devices shipped (and they promote Python too).
>
> * Python in data science. If the London PyData is anything to go by,
> things have only just started in this respect.
>
> Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch out
> for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..?
>
> Season's greetings...
>
> N.
>
>
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Re: [python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..?

[Michael]

Hi,


Not a trend, but perhaps interesting to someone...

I'm still working on Pyxie[1] - a Python to C++ compiler - which targets
embedded systems. The idea is to allow python code to run on platforms too
small for micropython - for example devices with 8K Flash & 1K RAM :-)

[1] http://sparkslabs.com/pyxie/

There's **tons** still missing -- like many I'm time starved this is a
personal/home project -- but it can do enough now to control simple robots
with sensors. (Like the Dagu Playful Puppy)

Not really ready for people who want "proper" python, but enough for people
who want to fiddle with arduino type stuff without wanting to use C++ - I
would still call it pre-alpha though. Might hit alpha next year though :-)

(Grew out of the work I did on the microbit prototype we took into schools
before the partnership - but this now does more than the specialised/hacky
python/C++ compiler I did there. )

(Obvious questions like "how does this differ from shedskin, pypy or cython
etc" are more the target device restricts a lot of options you'd normallly
have. As a result it's not likely to end up as full fledged as those)

The stack is designed to allow for profiles for targetting different
platforms (to make testing easier), so it can spit out linux executables as
well as arduino hex files at the moment. (And obviously nicely printed C++
code :) )


Michael.

On 7 December 2016 at 11:24, Nicholas H.Tollervey  wrote:

> I've been asked to answer this. I've already replied but I wonder what
> the wider community think..?
>
> My response mentioned:
>
> * MicroPython bringing Python to embedded / IoT communities (and such
> communities into the Python world).
>
> * Python 2 / Python 3 (a perennial)
>
> * Python in education: with the micro:bit, Calliope (German micro:bit)
> and Adafruit all settling on MicroPython lots of kids and teachers will
> be learning Python next year. Also viz RPi - now the most successful
> computing in education project in history if measured in terms of
> devices shipped (and they promote Python too).
>
> * Python in data science. If the London PyData is anything to go by,
> things have only just started in this respect.
>
> Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch out
> for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..?
>
> Season's greetings...
>
> N.
>
>
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Richard Smith]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 10:56 Cory Benfield (Lukasa) 
wrote:


For future reference, I did criticise the work... and was then accused of
being rude about my personal summary dismissal of the quality of the
recruiter based on the evidence available.

Furthermore a CoC is not the way forward. CoC's validate the passive
agaressive stance on interpersonal communications. For getattr(universe,
'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk to people. The WORST thing in the
world is the phrase "I'm offended". In the words of Stephen Fry, 'So what!'.

I shan't be contributing any further.

 ~ Rich
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Alistair Broomhead]

I would prefer not to hold other people to a higher standard than I hold
myself. I know I'm certainly guilty of sending an email in a rush before,
and later seeing that it wasn't perfect.

The matter of the email's spelling being raked up again and again, when
Sophie has apologised for it, and pointed out that this is something she
struggles with on account of her disability, quite frankly stinks of
ableism, which I have no time for.

This community has a reputation for being inclusive and friendly. Picking
on someone's disability is a great way to destroy that reputation. Please
don't.

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 11:44 Richard Barran 
wrote:

>
> > On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:49, Daniele Procida  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith  wrote:
> >
> >> What was rude about it?
> >
> > Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude.
> >
> >> Sophie is
> >> going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent.
> >
> > Sophie doesn't have to prove anything. All she has to do is use the list
> in accordance with its agreed purposes, politely.
> >
>
> I have to disagree; using a list in accordance with its agreed purpose, or
> with a code of conduct, or whatever, is not enough.
> The people who subscribe to this list are busy; we all have lives, jobs,
> families, unreasonable bosses, tiring commutes, sick and elderly parents,
> etc…
> Someone who requests our attention and time should respect that time, that
> attention that we are giving them.
>
> The recruiter who started this thread has posted several times before to
> this list; looking at her previous posts, they are well formatted, explain
> succinctly the jobs on offer, and provide enough information for me to
> decide if I want to contact her for more information (and just in case my
> boss is reading this: no, I’m not *actually* reading the job ads in
> detail!).
>
> This latest post, however, was frankly lazy:
> - typo in the title.
> - a list of technologies that’s badly copy-and-pasted (e.g “Postgre”) as
> well as showing poor understanding of the subject area (“tech stack”
> includes “APIs”. Err, come again?).
>
> The OP has proven that "that she can be a trusted agent” (to quote from
> Richard Smith’s email) in the past.
> However, trust and respect is not something that is earned once and for
> all - if I start spouting rubbish, I can expect to be called out on it, not
> matter how much respect (or “browny points”) I might have earned in the
> past. And I think that this should apply to anyone who posts to a mailing
> list.
>
> Richard
>
>
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Richard Barran]

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:49, Daniele Procida  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith  wrote:
> 
>> What was rude about it? 
> 
> Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude.
> 
>> Sophie is
>> going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent.
> 
> Sophie doesn't have to prove anything. All she has to do is use the list in 
> accordance with its agreed purposes, politely.
> 

I have to disagree; using a list in accordance with its agreed purpose, or with 
a code of conduct, or whatever, is not enough.
The people who subscribe to this list are busy; we all have lives, jobs, 
families, unreasonable bosses, tiring commutes, sick and elderly parents, etc…
Someone who requests our attention and time should respect that time, that 
attention that we are giving them.

The recruiter who started this thread has posted several times before to this 
list; looking at her previous posts, they are well formatted, explain 
succinctly the jobs on offer, and provide enough information for me to decide 
if I want to contact her for more information (and just in case my boss is 
reading this: no, I’m not *actually* reading the job ads in detail!).

This latest post, however, was frankly lazy:
- typo in the title.
- a list of technologies that’s badly copy-and-pasted (e.g “Postgre”) as well 
as showing poor understanding of the subject area (“tech stack” includes 
“APIs”. Err, come again?).

The OP has proven that "that she can be a trusted agent” (to quote from Richard 
Smith’s email) in the past.
However, trust and respect is not something that is earned once and for all - 
if I start spouting rubbish, I can expect to be called out on it, not matter 
how much respect (or “browny points”) I might have earned in the past. And I 
think that this should apply to anyone who posts to a mailing list.

Richard


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[python-uk] What trends should we watch Python during 2017..?

[Nicholas H.Tollervey]

I've been asked to answer this. I've already replied but I wonder what
the wider community think..?

My response mentioned:

* MicroPython bringing Python to embedded / IoT communities (and such
communities into the Python world).

* Python 2 / Python 3 (a perennial)

* Python in education: with the micro:bit, Calliope (German micro:bit)
and Adafruit all settling on MicroPython lots of kids and teachers will
be learning Python next year. Also viz RPi - now the most successful
computing in education project in history if measured in terms of
devices shipped (and they promote Python too).

* Python in data science. If the London PyData is anything to go by,
things have only just started in this respect.

Care to add anything else..? What about technical things to watch out
for..? Will Larry complete his Gilectomey..?

Season's greetings...

N.



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Re: [python-uk] python-uk Digest, Vol 160, Issue 13

[Sophie Hendley]

Hey Guys,

I would really like to put an end to this now as everyone is busy, plus its
slightly depressing watching people who don;t know me at all say mean
things about me on here. As a response to anyone thinking we recruiters are
lazy etc I would like to say its very hard to write something that pleases
everyone in an advert. I wrote a very brief description because I didn't
want to send a huge email which you very busy people might not have time to
fully process. My intent was purely to catch anyone who was open to
something news attention then as mentioned they could get in touch and we
could have a nice long chat about the roles over the phone. I have had
complaints from people before both about saying too little and too much in
an advert and you can't please everyone. In fact Linkedin tells us
constantly as recruiters we should keep it short and sweet as evidence
suggests that yields a better response.

I have been working in recruitment for 8 years and I know that we have a
bad reputation but I think its obvious to most you shouldn't judge everyone
by the same standard (if we did the names I've been called on here might
make me dislike every developer I ever met). I love my job and I always try
to do it as honestly and professionally as possible.

I will endeavour to send more info next time as I can see the people on the
group would like that.

Thanks everyone and have a good day.

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 11:08 AM,  wrote:

> Send python-uk mailing list submissions to
> python-uk@python.org
>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of python-uk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re:  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k
>   (Cory Benfield (Lukasa))
>2. Re:  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k
>   (Kaitlyn Tierney)
>3. Re:  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k
>   (David Wilson)
>4. Re:  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to ?95k
>   (Nick Murdoch)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 10:55:31 +
> From: "Cory Benfield (Lukasa)" 
> To: UK Python Users 
> Subject: Re: [python-uk]  2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to
> ?95k
> Message-ID: <496a43ce-b702-4c50-997c-bab833fa5...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
> > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith  wrote:
> >
> > What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a
> little work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the
> world who think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake
> candidates and many underhanded activities.
>
> What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself:
>
> > It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the
> post
> > and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish
> > biting.
> >
> > Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating.
> As
> > it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents.
>
> In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and
> opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the
> best of other people. They judge a human being?s actions through the lens
> of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is
> rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I?m here, I should
> note that your claim that you weren?t being rude is followed by a
> discussion about ?bad agents [?] who think it?s acceptable to cold-call,
> spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities?,
> when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough
> evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming.
>
> Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt
> with by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and
> moving on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter
> behaviour does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether
> recruiter mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However,
> you should try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the
> messenger. And if I?m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to
> criticise OP, you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you
> aren?t doing it, and then you should expect that other people on the
> mailing list will call you out when you do it.
>
> This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct in
> place. The original incident is long 

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Nicholas H.Tollervey]

This topic comes around every couple of years or so... If memory serves
me correctly, most people have thus far agreed posting jobs is fine
(assuming they're comprehensively described and not obvious recruitment
spam).

On 07/12/16 11:16, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote:
> I’m happy not to have recruitment messages on the discussion list. We
> all get inundated with enough of them as it is, and anyone actively
> looking for opportunities would probably be smart enough to
> visit https://pythonjobs.github.io/ or attend a Dojo and chat with
> others about hiring in person. If there are strong counter-arguments
> though, or some long-standing historical discussion I’m unaware of, by
> all means...
> 
> Kaitlyn
> 
>> On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:11, Thomas Kluyver > > wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote:
>>> I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
>>> Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process
>>> for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive
>>> direction?
>>
>> Following the vein of trying to move towards productive discussion:
>> there appears to be some disagreement on how appropriate job posts are
>> on this list. Daniele mentioned that there's a general consensus that
>> recruitment messages are allowed, but clearly not everyone is happy
>> about that.
>>
>> - Should there be a separate discussion list which does not allow
>> recruitment messages? This list is generally quite low traffic (except
>> the last couple of days ;-), so it doesn't seem worth splitting it
>> further.
>>
>> - Do we consider some recruitment messages more spammish than others? Is
>> there a certain level of detail we should expect? Are there guidelines
>> we can give recruiters wanting to contact the list?
>>
>> Thomas
>> ___
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Kaitlyn Tierney]

I’m happy not to have recruitment messages on the discussion list. We all get 
inundated with enough of them as it is, and anyone actively looking for 
opportunities would probably be smart enough to visit 
https://pythonjobs.github.io/  or attend a Dojo 
and chat with others about hiring in person. If there are strong 
counter-arguments though, or some long-standing historical discussion I’m 
unaware of, by all means...

Kaitlyn

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:11, Thomas Kluyver  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote:
>> I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
>> Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process
>> for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive
>> direction?
> 
> Following the vein of trying to move towards productive discussion:
> there appears to be some disagreement on how appropriate job posts are
> on this list. Daniele mentioned that there's a general consensus that
> recruitment messages are allowed, but clearly not everyone is happy
> about that.
> 
> - Should there be a separate discussion list which does not allow
> recruitment messages? This list is generally quite low traffic (except
> the last couple of days ;-), so it doesn't seem worth splitting it
> further.
> 
> - Do we consider some recruitment messages more spammish than others? Is
> there a certain level of detail we should expect? Are there guidelines
> we can give recruiters wanting to contact the list?
> 
> Thomas
> ___
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Thomas Kluyver]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote:
> I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of
> Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process
> for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive
> direction?

Following the vein of trying to move towards productive discussion:
there appears to be some disagreement on how appropriate job posts are
on this list. Daniele mentioned that there's a general consensus that
recruitment messages are allowed, but clearly not everyone is happy
about that.

- Should there be a separate discussion list which does not allow
recruitment messages? This list is generally quite low traffic (except
the last couple of days ;-), so it doesn't seem worth splitting it
further.

- Do we consider some recruitment messages more spammish than others? Is
there a certain level of detail we should expect? Are there guidelines
we can give recruiters wanting to contact the list?

Thomas
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Nick Murdoch]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:57:51AM +, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote:
> I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of 
> Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for 
> enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction?

+1

> Kaitlyn
> 
> > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa)  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith  wrote:
> >> 
> >> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little 
> >> work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who 
> >> think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates 
> >> and many underhanded activities.
> > 
> > What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself:
> > 
> >> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post
> >> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish
> >> biting.
> >> 
> >> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As
> >> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents.
> > 
> > In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and 
> > opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the 
> > best of other people. They judge a human being’s actions through the lens 
> > of their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is 
> > rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I’m here, I should 
> > note that your claim that you weren’t being rude is followed by a 
> > discussion about “bad agents […] who think it’s acceptable to cold-call, 
> > spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities”, 
> > when even a most charitable reading of this situation gives you enough 
> > evidence to accuse OP of *at most* spamming.
> > 
> > Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt with 
> > by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and moving 
> > on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter behaviour 
> > does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether recruiter 
> > mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, you should 
> > try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the messenger. And 
> > if I’m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to criticise OP, 
> > you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you aren’t doing 
> > it, and then you should expect that other people on the mailing list will 
> > call you out when you do it.
> > 
> > This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct in 
> > place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people having 
> > apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had on 
> > either side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself 
> > required no CoC to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to 
> > have felt the need to make the principled stand that no apology was needed 
> > because recruiters are bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that’s your 
> > position, then you find yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which 
> > allow job posts. You should feel free to change that norm, but you should 
> > not assume that you have carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that 
> > comes by. Do what the rest of us do and just *ignore it*.
> > 
> > Cory
> > ___
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> > python-uk@python.org
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[David Wilson]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:31:56AM +, Richard Smith wrote:

> Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. If you received the OPs
> email, directly, would you require a little more information in the
> post other than a technology stack and a carrot on a stick?

The way this generally works is to forward a generic CV, wait an hour,
receive a phone call, then ask every question on your mind. As for why
it works that way, well, at least recruiters generally have much more to
lose by sharing their client's name than you do a generic CV.

It sucks but it's the way it is, and anyway it's not that much of a
hurdle to cross, not least since often things will be shared by
telephone that nobody in their right mind would commit to page.

The only recruiters who don't follow this pattern are generally those
working directly for a company, or perhaps less commonly, those with an
exclusive agreement or structure to provide services to their client,
and if you only accept solicitation from those then you'd be ignoring
90% of the work out there.

(I hate to find myself defending that industry, but in this case it
seems fair)


David
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Kaitlyn Tierney]

I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of 
Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for 
enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction?

Kaitlyn

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa)  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith  wrote:
>> 
>> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little 
>> work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who 
>> think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates 
>> and many underhanded activities.
> 
> What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself:
> 
>> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post
>> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish
>> biting.
>> 
>> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As
>> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents.
> 
> In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and 
> opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the 
> best of other people. They judge a human being’s actions through the lens of 
> their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is 
> rude, and it is frankly below us as a community. While I’m here, I should 
> note that your claim that you weren’t being rude is followed by a discussion 
> about “bad agents […] who think it’s acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, 
> edit CVs, fake candidates, and many underhanded activities”, when even a most 
> charitable reading of this situation gives you enough evidence to accuse OP 
> of *at most* spamming.
> 
> Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt with 
> by marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and moving 
> on. But the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter behaviour 
> does not justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether recruiter 
> mail should be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, you should 
> try to avoid making it personal. Criticise the work, not the messenger. And 
> if I’m wrong about your motives and you genuinely do want to criticise OP, 
> you should be up-front about that rather than pretending you aren’t doing it, 
> and then you should expect that other people on the mailing list will call 
> you out when you do it.
> 
> This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct in 
> place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people having 
> apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had on either 
> side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself required no CoC 
> to resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to have felt the need to 
> make the principled stand that no apology was needed because recruiters are 
> bad people who deserve to be mocked. If that’s your position, then you find 
> yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which allow job posts. You 
> should feel free to change that norm, but you should not assume that you have 
> carte blanche to unload on each recruiter that comes by. Do what the rest of 
> us do and just *ignore it*.
> 
> Cory
> ___
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Cory Benfield (Lukasa)]

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith  wrote:
> 
> What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little 
> work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who 
> think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates 
> and many underhanded activities.

What was rude about it? I will quote you back to yourself:

> It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the post
> and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish
> biting.
> 
> Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. As
> it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents.

In these two paragraphs you assert that Sophie is lazy, cynical, and 
opportunistic. Those assertions are rude. They make no effort to assume the 
best of other people. They judge a human being’s actions through the lens of 
their job title alone. That kind of behaviour is uncharitable, and it is rude, 
and it is frankly below us as a community. While I’m here, I should note that 
your claim that you weren’t being rude is followed by a discussion about “bad 
agents […] who think it’s acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake 
candidates, and many underhanded activities”, when even a most charitable 
reading of this situation gives you enough evidence to accuse OP of *at most* 
spamming.

Your disinterest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents is best dealt with by 
marking the mail as read, adding the sender to a block list, and moving on. But 
the fact that you feel personally aggrieved by recruiter behaviour does not 
justify this rant. If you would like to discuss whether recruiter mail should 
be allowed on this mailing list, feel free. However, you should try to avoid 
making it personal. Criticise the work, not the messenger. And if I’m wrong 
about your motives and you genuinely do want to criticise OP, you should be 
up-front about that rather than pretending you aren’t doing it, and then you 
should expect that other people on the mailing list will call you out when you 
do it.

This nonsense is why communities feel the need to put codes of conduct in 
place. The original incident is long over, with all relevant people having 
apologised for the various miscommunications. No bad intent was had on either 
side: it was a classic miscommunication. The incident itself required no CoC to 
resolve. But rather than let this lie, you appear to have felt the need to make 
the principled stand that no apology was needed because recruiters are bad 
people who deserve to be mocked. If that’s your position, then you find 
yourself at odds with the norms on this list, which allow job posts. You should 
feel free to change that norm, but you should not assume that you have carte 
blanche to unload on each recruiter that comes by. Do what the rest of us do 
and just *ignore it*.

Cory
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Chris Withers]

Wow, another community lists degenerates into PC hand wringing, this 
time as a result of a lazy recruiter spamming the list.


I find the asymmetry of all this ironic: a recruiter spamming a list and 
then throwing a hissy fit when people light heartedly jest about the 
post, followed by 30+ messages of discussion about how we're hurting her 
feelings and making her feel unwelcome.


Sorry, but the signal-to-noise ratio of this list pretty much just 
dropped to zero for me, so I'll be leaving now...


Chris

On 06/12/2016 16:49, Steve Holden wrote:
Yes, it's a pity the more rational feedback didn't come first, but 
knees do tend to jerk at recruitment communications.  S


Steve Holden

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Tom Wright > wrote:


Perhaps replying immediately doesn't count as pause, but I hope
this constitutes thought.

I would make three points:

I. The tone of the response may in part be due to the recruitment
topic more than anything else. This is unfortunately a rather
fraught subject. Bulk recruitment ads are so common  it is
unsurprising that people would view them as a piece of text rather
than a correspondence with a real person.

II. I suspect that many readers do not view this list as for
communication that requires "professional" standards. And might
view the imposition of professionalism in this context as
problematic.

This represents the key conflict at the heart of codes of conduct:
in-group behaviour that can be damagingly exclusionary, versus the
imposition of strict rules that impinge upon an informal setting.

III. I don't know if the guidance on this list for jobs posts is
particularly clear, and if I am not mistaken is mostly held in
people's heads. An unfortunate side effect of no clearly defined
rules is that the informal rules can be unforced rather unfriendlily.

On 6 Dec 2016 1:46 p.m., "David Wilson" mailto:dw%2bpython...@hmmz.org>> wrote:

While I quite enjoyed this thread and, especially considering the
recruiter's followup, it appears to have somewhat been in bad
taste.

I can't speak for others, but I'm in my mid 30s and regularly
confuse
license/licence, prescribe/proscribe and without doubt a bunch
more,
either through finger memory or plain old thinko. It would not be
without embarrassment to have strangers publicly ridicule such
errors,
especially in a professional context as occurred here.

This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the
underlying
insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of
Conduct,
therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect
on it.


David

On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:57:00PM +, Nicholas H.Tollervey
wrote:
> On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote:
> > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not
> > have simple values.
>
> Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of
> misspelled principles.
>



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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Daniele Procida]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith  wrote:

>On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 04:19 Daniele Procida  wrote:
>
>> It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment
>> messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that
>> they are not.
>>
>
>Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. 

Actually, *your* reply did go into my spam folder, and it was a while before I 
even found it.

>If you received the OPs email,
>directly, would you require a little more information in the post other
>than a technology stack and a carrot on a stick?
>
>Is this now the minimum people accept for employment opportunities and
>recruitment messages?
>
>I'm sorry but:
>
>a) I don't want to have to email a recruitment agent and beg for more info
>b) email recruitment agent only to be put on yet another mailing list to
>get more spam

Your wants and mine are not the issue here.

>> This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on
>> this email list.
>
>
>What was rude about it? 

Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude.

>Sophie is
>going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent.

Sophie doesn't have to prove anything. All she has to do is use the list in 
accordance with its agreed purposes, politely.

Daniele

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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Richard Smith]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 04:19 Daniele Procida  wrote:

> It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment
> messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that
> they are not.
>

Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. If you received the OPs email,
directly, would you require a little more information in the post other
than a technology stack and a carrot on a stick?

Is this now the minimum people accept for employment opportunities and
recruitment messages?

I'm sorry but:

a) I don't want to have to email a recruitment agent and beg for more info
b) email recruitment agent only to be put on yet another mailing list to
get more spam

This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on
> this email list.


What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little
work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who
think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates
and many underhanded activities.

Unfortunately Sophie works in for an industry which has little respect to
start with. This is by no means a reflection on Sophie herself, but that of
the many underhanded agents who are out there for the money only. Sophie is
going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent.

Don't forget, we, as candidates, also require some respect and it was the
content, or more precisely, the lack of content in the original email that
I found disrespectful.

As someone said earlier. It's not hard to please us. Pizza or a visit to a
python dojo etc... These actions would show a greater commitment to the
community than sending a stark employment opportunity.

IMO it works both ways.

 ~ Rich
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:10 AM, Daniele Procida  wrote:

> >Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating.
> As
> >it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents.
>
> This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on
> this email list.
>

It's certainly the kind of value judgement that is unhelpful, so thanks for
calling it out, Daniele. I'd like to feel we can treat everyone with the
same courtesy we'd like for ourselves.

Steve Holden
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Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

[Alistair Broomhead]

Let's get a few things out in the open:

1. This shouldn't need saying, but the python-uk making list is here to
serve the Python community in the United Kingdom. As the key usage of
Python by a large chunk of that community is gainful employment those of us
I've spoken to in person all seem to agree that job listings are
appropriate.

2. There is no code of conduct on this mailing list, but if we're not
sensible and sensitive there are only two ways this can go:

a) there is no more mailing list, nobody wants to be on here

b) we end up with a code of conduct in order to avoid a)

If we go the route of b) there may well be standards imposed on job
listings posted to this mailing list, but one or two of the replies on this
thread would probably result in those people having their posting
privileges removed. As someone who tries to be professional on here I have
no problem with that idea, but some might find it off-putting, si maybe we
should just be sensible.

3. Mail filters exist. If you really have an objection to seeing job
adverts there are only a handful of recruiters on this list. Just block
their messages and you won't have any problems.

4. Bullying is never acceptable. I can see that there is some good natured
humour in here, but at the point someone takes offence you should stop, or
at least make your position of not trying to cause offence clear. Telling
someone they should not have been offended, or that they shouldn't be in
here in the first place is not acceptable and creates further bad feeling.

5. Don't forget that most of the people who subscribe to this list do not
post. It might feel like a friendly chat between friends that is intruded
on by people you might not agree with, but there are hundreds if not
thousands of people watching.

Hopefully all of these points should be obvious to us all, and I'm not way
out of line on any of them, but I don't like the way this thread has gone,
it does not match with my thoughts on the temperament of our community, and
if there was a vote to close button I'd have pressed it long ago. If you
agree the best response to this message is none at all.

Al

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, 04:19 Daniele Procida,  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, Richard Smith  wrote:
>
> >However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I
> >object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently
> >added the OP to my shitlist in GApps).
>
> It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment
> messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that
> they are not.
>
> >It was clear from the OPs post that no thought was put into making the
> post
> >and that her intention was simply to float it out there to get some fish
> >biting.
> >
> >Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating.
> As
> >it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents.
>
> This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on
> this email list.
>
> Daniele
>
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