Re: LWQ OpenBSD
"Robin S. Socha" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
man hier should be a lot older than OpenBSD or whatever. I mean, really.
Unix-88 said that this sort of non-vendor provided stuff should go in
/opt/{vendor}/, but SunOS 4.1.x chose not to do that and few others do
even now. (SunOS 4's HIER(7) suggested /usr/local/ was for "locally
maintained software", and /var/ was "directory of files that tend to
grow or vary in size". The BSD4.4-derived OS's go further and suggest
that /var/ should be solely transient stuff)
Nowadays, I'm tending to build things self contained in
/opt/{product}/ and symlink appropriate things into /usr/local/*/.
For qmail on Solaris, I've been going for:
/opt/qmail/
alias/
bin/
boot/
control/
doc/
log - var/log/qmail
man/
queue - var/queue
sbin/
supervise/
users/
var - /var/qmail
/var/qmail/queue/
/var/log/qmail/
/usr/local/man/*/* - /opt/qmail/man/*/* (to aid use of man)
(as I consider my qmail configurations and binaries non-transient!)
supervise/ is a tricky one though - some bits in there are
configuration and some bits are transient status info. How would
supervise cope if the .../{process}/supervise/ subdirectories were
symlinks into /var/run/supervise/ ?
(control/ should arguably be in /etc/opt/qmail/..., as should alias/.)
Dan's right that it's a mess, for sure.
James.
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:34:36PM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:00:46AM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: Nonsense. The "qmail" script from LWQ is compatible with the System V init script mechanism, but it's also perfectly compatible with BSD and generally useful on all UNIX flavors as a qmail control interface. Maybe I should rename it qmailctl a la apachectl or ctlqmail a la ctlinnd... No. I'd go with Robin to say that init scripts shouldn't live in /usr/local/whatever, Where should they live? Nowhere. We have exactly two (2) init scripts, /etc/rc and /etc/rc.local Where does apachectl live? /usr/sbin/apachectl, but thats irrelevant as apache is NOT started or stopped or whatever by apachectl, apachectl in OpenBSD is just a helper program for the sysadmin, not for the system. and your qmail script, perfect for linux and other sysv-init systems, is not adequate for *BSD. Does "qmail start" not work on *BSD? Of course it does. It may be more than you want, but that doesn't make it inadequate. maybe inadequate wasn't the right word, bit it doesn't fit in BSd philosophy. It's totally against the "keep it simple"-approach. How is having a simple control interface like: [...] against "keep it simple"? What are the *BSD-approved equivalents for the above commands? svc -d /service/qmail-* and co. In general you are looking up PIDs and send them signals in BSD-world, not calling complex scripts. svscan/supervise fits good in BSD world as these are simple approaches working very very fine. Granted, I should add a note about adding: if [ -x /usr/local/sbin/qmail ]; then /usr/local/sbin/qmail start fi to rc.local for BSD variants, No, see above. I just don't get it. ... I believe that you don't have a linux bias, and in fact i'd guess most qmail-installations _are_ on linux. I'd just separate basic instructions from os specifica as we have done it in http://www.lifewithdjbdns.org/ and http://www.lifewithqmail.org/ldap/. My goal with LWQ--and it was obviously less than 100% successful--was to keep the installation instructions as portable as possible. I wanted to avoid having constant interruptions for OS-specific details. It can't work. The OS concepts are to different. -Dave -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg http://www.bsws.de | Germany
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
I really should let this die, but I just can't... Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:34:36PM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: Where does apachectl live? /usr/sbin/apachectl, but thats irrelevant as apache is NOT started or stopped or whatever by apachectl, apachectl in OpenBSD is just a helper program for the sysadmin, not for the system. How do you start Apache if not "apachectl start"? How is having a simple control interface like: [...] against "keep it simple"? What are the *BSD-approved equivalents for the above commands? svc -d /service/qmail-* and co. In general you are looking up PIDs and send them signals in BSD-world, not calling complex scripts. "Complex scripts"? You think think the LWQ qmail script is complex? Give me a break! It's freakin' trivial. Let's look at simplicity and complexity... Let's compare your way and my way for some simple qmail administration tasks: TaskBSD LWQ start PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin qmail start svscan /service stopsvc -d /service/qmail-* qmail stop svc -d /service/qmail-*/log restart svc -d /service/qmail-* qmail restart svc -d /service/qmail-*/log PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin svscan /service rebuild cdb tcprules /etc/tcp.smtp.cdb \qmail cdb /etc/tcp.smtp.tmp /etc/tcp.smtp check queue qmail-qstat qmail queue qmail-qread hup fire up web browser qmail hup go to http://cr.yp.to find daemontools docs look up svc locate HUP option svc -h /service/qmail-send The last example is facetious, of course, but illustrative of the fact that not everyone wants to memorize all of svc's options. And when you need to act fast, do you really want to have to research what to do first? What if cr.yp.to's down? What if your net link is down? Do you really have a local copy of the daemontools docs? Is it current? [Non-OS specific installation instructions] can't work. The OS concepts are to different. That's pretty sad, but it's a symptom of the gratuitous incompatibilities that DJB rails against. And these are due to 20 different OS packagers each doing things their own way and demanding that developers accomodate their whims. The LWQ qmail script works the same on all platforms. Can't BSD be just a little flexible and allow cross-platform compatibility? -Dave
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 10:33:09AM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: I really should let this die, but I just can't... Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:34:36PM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: Where does apachectl live? /usr/sbin/apachectl, but thats irrelevant as apache is NOT started or stopped or whatever by apachectl, apachectl in OpenBSD is just a helper program for the sysadmin, not for the system. How do you start Apache if not "apachectl start"? /usr/sbin/httpd How is having a simple control interface like: [...] against "keep it simple"? What are the *BSD-approved equivalents for the above commands? svc -d /service/qmail-* and co. In general you are looking up PIDs and send them signals in BSD-world, not calling complex scripts. "Complex scripts"? You think think the LWQ qmail script is complex? Give me a break! It's freakin' trivial. The script itself is everything but trivial. One Example why it is bad: you are storing svscans PID (via $!) in /var/run/svscan.pid und use this PID for killing svscan later. What if the admin has killed and started svscan in other ways before "qmail stop"? Given your favorite server prog has this PID when you issue "qmail stop"? You are killing the wrong program. Starting svscan at boottime and never stop it is the much cleaner way and fits well in BSD philosophy. And, btw, works as well on Linux. Let's look at simplicity and complexity... Let's compare your way and my way for some simple qmail administration tasks: TaskBSD LWQ start PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin qmail start svscan /service covered by /etc/rc.local, never done by hand. stopsvc -d /service/qmail-* qmail stop svc -d /service/qmail-*/log restart svc -d /service/qmail-* qmail restart svc -d /service/qmail-*/log PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin svscan /service no. svc -t /service/qmail-* multilog needs no restart usually. your example is worng, you'd have two svscans running if you do so. rebuild cdb tcprules /etc/tcp.smtp.cdb \qmail cdb /etc/tcp.smtp.tmp /etc/tcp.smtp right. check queue qmail-qstat qmail queue qmail-qread hup fire up web browser qmail hup go to http://cr.yp.to find daemontools docs look up svc locate HUP option svc -h /service/qmail-send no. I'm familiar with svc as everbody running anything under svscan should be, so it is simply svc -h /service/qmail-send And you forgot "reschedule queue", svc -a /service/qmail-send qmail alrm (?) [..] Do you really have a local copy of the daemontools docs? Is it current? of course. But i wish Dan would include manpages... [Non-OS specific installation instructions] can't work. The OS concepts are to different. That's pretty sad, but it's a symptom of the gratuitous incompatibilities that DJB rails against. And these are due to 20 different OS packagers each doing things their own way and demanding that developers accomodate their whims. Yes, thats true. The LWQ qmail script works the same on all platforms. Can't BSD be just a little flexible and allow cross-platform compatibility? svscan is the way to cross-platform compatibility. -Dave -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg http://www.bsws.de | Germany
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
On 21.02.2001 20:04 + Kris Kelley wrote: Rick Updegrove wrote: Since I do not have a init.d directory in OpenBSD and it seems everything is started from rc.conf and rc.local in OpenBSD how am I to follow LWQ? I may be way off base here, having never used OpenBSD, but couldn't you create the LWQ qmail start-up script as a file somewhere, then tell whichever rc.* script is appropriate to do a "/path/to/script/qmail start"? ---Kris Kelley Using Slackware, I decided to simplify things and just put the qmail start|stop|reload in /usr/local/sbin and then call it from /etc/rc.d/rc.local. Now, though I've set it up to be controlled by svscan/supervise, so I don't need to bother with the rc.d scripts at all. -- I'm Keyser Soze...No, I'm Keyser Soze. I'm Keyser Soze and so's my wife! (Monty Python play The Usual Suspects.)
LWQ OpenBSD
Hello, I have been running qmail on Linux (RedHat and Mandrake) for a few months now and I am growing interested in switching to OpenBSD for many obvious reasons. I did try a "ports" install of qmail and watched what was happening, and saved the ports version of what was needed for the user ids since OpenBSD is not mentioned at all in INSTALL.ids (I also asked on this list and got helpful advice - thanks guys) Ok on to my lamer newbie question: Since I do not have a init.d directory in OpenBSD and it seems everything is started from rc.conf and rc.local in OpenBSD how am I to follow LWQ? Has anyone recently switched to OpenBSD that was used to LWQ + Linux before and if so, do you have any helpful hints, reading material or advice at all? Thanks in advance. Rick Up
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
Rick Updegrove wrote: Since I do not have a init.d directory in OpenBSD and it seems everything is started from rc.conf and rc.local in OpenBSD how am I to follow LWQ? I may be way off base here, having never used OpenBSD, but couldn't you create the LWQ qmail start-up script as a file somewhere, then tell whichever rc.* script is appropriate to do a "/path/to/script/qmail start"? ---Kris Kelley
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:46:26AM -0800, Rick Updegrove wrote: Since I do not have a init.d directory in OpenBSD and it seems everything is started from rc.conf and rc.local in OpenBSD how am I to follow LWQ? The lack of the complicated sysv-style init and its dependencies is a big advantage for OpenBSD ;-)) Just enter PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin svscan /service in your /etc/rc.local Greetings Henning -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg http://www.bsws.de | Germany
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:24:04AM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just enter PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin svscan /service in your /etc/rc.local Since we're talking about LWQ, that would have to be "svscan /var/qmail/supervise ". But putting: /usr/local/sbin/qmail start in rc.local is the correct approach. Sorry Dave, but having such a beast like the sysv-init-script for qmail on OpenBSD is definetly not the correct approach. Thats against any BSD concept, especially the OpenBSD concept. Just (soft-)link you stuff from /var/qmail/supervise to /service and use the lines as I typed them. For my taste lwq is a bit too linux-specific. Don't tell people to use sysv-sytle init scripts on non-sysv-init-systems. Thats confusing. -Dave Greetings Henning -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg http://www.bsws.de | Germany
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just enter PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin svscan /service in your /etc/rc.local Since we're talking about LWQ, that would have to be "svscan /var/qmail/supervise ". But putting: /usr/local/sbin/qmail start in rc.local is the correct approach. -Dave
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
* Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [010222 09:36]: On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 09:24:04AM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: Since we're talking about LWQ, that would have to be "svscan /var/qmail/supervise ". But putting: /usr/local/sbin/qmail start in rc.local is the correct approach. Sorry Dave, but having such a beast like the sysv-init-script for qmail on OpenBSD is definetly not the correct approach. Thats against any BSD concept, especially the OpenBSD concept. Just (soft-)link you stuff from /var/qmail/supervise to /service and use the lines as I typed them. Also, putting init scripts in /usr/local does not make any sense at all (unless you happen to own an Lintendo) - cf. DJB's explation of why he chose /var. For my taste lwq is a bit too linux-specific. Don't tell people to use sysv-sytle init scripts on non-sysv-init-systems. Thats confusing. I find it quite interesting that although DJB himself uses OpenBSD, none of the 3rd party docs deal with it (adding users and groups is certainly different from even FreeBSD). Mind you, this is not a critique of LWQ: great piece of documentation. Rather, it's a suggestion for a possible enhancement. Add to that a section about SysV under SuSE Linux as described by Erwin Hoffmann.
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry Dave, but having such a beast like the sysv-init-script for qmail on OpenBSD is definetly not the correct approach. Thats against any BSD concept, especially the OpenBSD concept. Nonsense. The "qmail" script from LWQ is compatible with the System V init script mechanism, but it's also perfectly compatible with BSD and generally useful on all UNIX flavors as a qmail control interface. Maybe I should rename it qmailctl a la apachectl or ctlqmail a la ctlinnd... For my taste lwq is a bit too linux-specific. Don't tell people to use sysv-sytle init scripts on non-sysv-init-systems. Thats confusing. Granted, I should add a note about adding: if [ -x /usr/local/sbin/qmail ]; then /usr/local/sbin/qmail start fi to rc.local for BSD variants, but I have no Linux bias. I've been managing both BSD and Sys V machines for more than 12 years. -Dave
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
"Robin S. Socha" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, putting init scripts in /usr/local does not make any sense at all I've been putting stuff in /usr/local for at least a decade. I'm not going to stop just because some upstart free OS's want to impose their idea of the One True Filesystem Hierarchy on me. (unless you happen to own an Lintendo) Cute, but I'd rather support fellow UNIX-like OS users than degrade them. Save the namecalling for Wintendo lusers. :-) - cf. DJB's explation of why he chose /var. Which is where? -Dave
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
* Dave Sill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [010222 10:41]: "Robin S. Socha" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, putting init scripts in /usr/local does not make any sense at all I've been putting stuff in /usr/local for at least a decade. I'm not going to stop just because some upstart free OS's want to impose their idea of the One True Filesystem Hierarchy on me. man hier should be a lot older than OpenBSD or whatever. I mean, really. And system components (I consider an MTA a system component, don't you?) don't belong under /something/local but /something - cf. NFS. (unless you happen to own an Lintendo) Cute, but I'd rather support fellow UNIX-like OS users than degrade them. Save the namecalling for Wintendo lusers. :-) I was in fact referring to desktop boxes (usually running Linux, not some flavour of BSD). -cf. DJB's explation of why he chose /var. Which is where? http://cr.yp.to/compatibility.html http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/install.html#whyvar I'm shocked ;-)
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:00:46AM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry Dave, but having such a beast like the sysv-init-script for qmail on OpenBSD is definetly not the correct approach. Thats against any BSD concept, especially the OpenBSD concept. Nonsense. The "qmail" script from LWQ is compatible with the System V init script mechanism, but it's also perfectly compatible with BSD and generally useful on all UNIX flavors as a qmail control interface. Maybe I should rename it qmailctl a la apachectl or ctlqmail a la ctlinnd... No. I'd go with Robin to say that init scripts shouldn't live in /usr/local/whatever, and your qmail script, perfect for linux and other sysv-init systems, is not adequate for *BSD. It's totally against the "keep it simple"-approach. For my taste lwq is a bit too linux-specific. Don't tell people to use sysv-sytle init scripts on non-sysv-init-systems. Thats confusing. Granted, I should add a note about adding: if [ -x /usr/local/sbin/qmail ]; then /usr/local/sbin/qmail start fi to rc.local for BSD variants, No, see above. but I have no Linux bias. Thats not what I wanted to tell you. I believe that you don't have a linux bias, and in fact i'd guess most qmail-installations _are_ on linux. I'd just separate basic instructions from os specifica as we have done it in http://www.lifewithdjbdns.org/ and http://www.lifewithqmail.org/ldap/. -- Henning Brauer | BS Web Services Hostmaster BSWS| Roedingsmarkt 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 20459 Hamburg http://www.bsws.de | Germany
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
"Robin S. Socha" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Dave Sill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [010222 10:41]: "Robin S. Socha" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, putting init scripts in /usr/local does not make any sense at all I've been putting stuff in /usr/local for at least a decade. I'm not going to stop just because some upstart free OS's want to impose their idea of the One True Filesystem Hierarchy on me. man hier should be a lot older than OpenBSD or whatever. Hmm... My OpenBSD 2.8 "man hier" says: [/usr/] local/Local executables, libraries, etc. And system components (I consider an MTA a system component, don't you?) don't belong under /something/local but /something - cf. NFS. Yes, an MTA is a "system component". Back in the olden days, we didn't install replacements for vendor- supplied components in directories under the control of vendor. This isolation was done for two reasons: (1) it prevented vendor upgrades from blowing away our replacement components, and (2) it made it easy to identify the replacement components. Sure, when Sun was shipping their variant of Sendmail 5.65 and I was installing 8.6.10, I *could* have just plopped it into /usr/lib/sendmail and /etc/sendmail.cf...but it wouldn't have terribly bright. I still think it's good to isolate components added by the admin--even though it's not always as necessary as it used to be. Which is where? http://cr.yp.to/compatibility.html http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/install.html#whyvar I'm shocked ;-) Don't be. I've read all that before, I just couldn't remember where it lived. -Dave
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:00:46AM -0500, Dave Sill wrote: Nonsense. The "qmail" script from LWQ is compatible with the System V init script mechanism, but it's also perfectly compatible with BSD and generally useful on all UNIX flavors as a qmail control interface. Maybe I should rename it qmailctl a la apachectl or ctlqmail a la ctlinnd... No. I'd go with Robin to say that init scripts shouldn't live in /usr/local/whatever, Where should they live? Where does apachectl live? and your qmail script, perfect for linux and other sysv-init systems, is not adequate for *BSD. Does "qmail start" not work on *BSD? Of course it does. It may be more than you want, but that doesn't make it inadequate. It's totally against the "keep it simple"-approach. How is having a simple control interface like: qmail start qmail stop qmail queue qmail doqueue qmail pause qmail cont qmail stat qmail reload qmail restart qmail cdb against "keep it simple"? What are the *BSD-approved equivalents for the above commands? Granted, I should add a note about adding: if [ -x /usr/local/sbin/qmail ]; then /usr/local/sbin/qmail start fi to rc.local for BSD variants, No, see above. I just don't get it. ... I believe that you don't have a linux bias, and in fact i'd guess most qmail-installations _are_ on linux. I'd just separate basic instructions from os specifica as we have done it in http://www.lifewithdjbdns.org/ and http://www.lifewithqmail.org/ldap/. My goal with LWQ--and it was obviously less than 100% successful--was to keep the installation instructions as portable as possible. I wanted to avoid having constant interruptions for OS-specific details. -Dave
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:46:26AM -0800, Rick Updegrove wrote: Since I do not have a init.d directory in OpenBSD and it seems everything is started from rc.conf and rc.local in OpenBSD how am I to follow LWQ? I recently set up an openbsd 2.8 box LWQ-style. The 'qmail' script that is suggested to be placed in an init.d directory, I put in /usr/local/sbin. Then I added the line: /usr/local/sbin/qmail start to /etc/rc.local. Has anyone recently switched to OpenBSD that was used to LWQ + Linux before and if so, do you have any helpful hints, reading material or advice at all? Nothing really, at least as far as qmail is concerned. It's running just as well as it has on my linux boxes. -- Aaron Malone ([EMAIL PROTECTED])"There is no distinctly System Administrator American criminal class... Poplar Bluff Internet, Inc. except Congress." http://www.semo.net -- Mark Twain
Re: LWQ OpenBSD
* Kris Kelley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Rick Updegrove wrote: Since I do not have a init.d directory in OpenBSD and it seems everything is started from rc.conf and rc.local in OpenBSD how am I to follow LWQ? I may be way off base here, having never used OpenBSD, but couldn't you create the LWQ qmail start-up script as a file somewhere, then tell whichever rc.* script is appropriate to do a "/path/to/script/qmail start"? That (man 8 rc) would do the trick. The wrong one, IMHO, though, because daemontools and ucspi-tcp are also in the ports if necessary - a much better solution, but YMMV. SysV init scripts don't really belong into BSD land ;-) -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/
