[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Brian Campbell]

Rivendell should sell whatever they can, so that they remain a viable 
enterprise going forward. I don't really care what new new models come and 
what old models go. They do good work  IMHOand that is what I support.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Don Compton]

Patrick,
I live in N. Calif. and stay away from riding in the rain. I never use 
fenders on my Roadeo. So, in that context, my Roadeo has room for some 
fairly large tires, atleast 38c without fenders. It has more room than my 
old Rambouillet.

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 9:19:42 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I agree with Bill. Heck, on firm dirt and gravel with good tires, 28 mm 
> does wonderfully well, as I can attest with my Compass Elk Passes, which 
> are meant to be 32 mm wide but in fact measure, on my narrower and wider 
> rims, respectively 27 and 29. 32 mm would be practically fat bike velvet. 
> In fact, I'd say that Riv should make the Roadeo even more roadie-like by 
> lightening the tubing.
>
> Can the Hill take 45s and fenders, or 50s without? If not, make it so! 
> Make the smaller models with 650B wheels.
>
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Bill M.  > wrote:
>
>> Sorry, can't agree.  The Roadeo is set up to maximize clearance with a 
>> standard reach caliper.  Stretching it to bigger rubber would mean 
>> different brakes, and basically make it a slightly lighter Hilsen.  Too 
>> much overlap there.  IMO 28 - 33 mm is a sweet spot for a fast, 
>> comfortable, paved road, club-sport-not-quite-a-racing bike.  
>>
>> I've been thinking about having a custom frame built.  Every time I take 
>> a stab at the geometry I'd want, then nudge it back to what can actually be 
>> built without running into clearance problems, I wind up with something 
>> that might as well be a Roadeo.
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 06:11 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
OK, so as usual, you are just being helpful to your fellow cyclists. 
 If you want product X, and if you know for a fact that you will 
regret not buying product X if it is discontinued someday, then buy 
product X before it is discontinued.  That's good advice.


You bet it is.  Learned the truth of that through long-lasting regret.


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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[stonehog]

Full disclosure, I have a Hunqa, Hilsen, and Appa (wife's).  My unaskedfor 
opinion:

Keepers:

   - New Light Road/Gravel/Cross - fits wide tires (50s), light riders 
   (thinner tubing), and replaces Roadeo, Hilsen, Legolas.  Keeps a 2 degree 
   top tube for those who like the classic geometry, and comes it in lots of 
   sizes to please fit purists and drop bar users who want a 10-12cm stem.
   - Appaloosa - can replace Sam, Atlantis, Hunqa, Bomba as heavy duty 
   mtb/tourer/bikepacker - has 6 degree slope, and less sizes to keep in 
   stock.  Add diagatube to keep that in the lineup, or just rebadge Hunqa and 
   emulate wheelsize/chainstays.  Drop the Joe.  Appaloosa is cool on its own. 
Also fulfills the "animal" riv like the Saluki, and Hunqa (mammoth)
   - Clem(entine) - keep the budget, lowest cost to get a Riv bike
   - Cheviot/Foy - unique offering - also believe this was a big hit.


Discard, modify, or make custom: 

   - Roadeo 
   - Hillborne
   - Atlantis 
   - Hunqa
   - Hilsen
   - Hubbuhubbuh
   - Rosco

I love all the bikes in the discard, but also loved all the bikes that have 
already gone to pasture.  They will always be available on the used (or 
custom) market as they last forever. 

Brian Hanson
Seattle, WA
www.stonehog.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Bill Lindsay]

OK, so as usual, you are just being helpful to your fellow cyclists.  If 
you want product X, and if you know for a fact that you will regret not 
buying product X if it is discontinued someday, then buy product X before 
it is discontinued.  That's good advice.  

>
> Misunderstandings and false assumptions can lead to disappointment when 
> the error is revealed.  I personally won't be wringing my hands over any 
> Rivendells being discontinued, but we do see people expressing 
> disappointment that they failed to get one of the now-gone models when 
> it was available because they thought they could always get one later.   
> And honestly, when I see pictures of some of the more recent double top 
> tube Rivs with cruiser bars, I think back on or see examples of some of 
> the "sleeping" models like the All-Rounder and the Rambouillet and I 
> cannot help but think, what a shame. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Bill Lindsay]

I just bought myself a Rivendell Bicycle Works Gift Certificateand a 
Triangia stove.  No usury at all here.  

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 12:23:21 PM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Ouch! That makes Riv customers practically guilty of usury! I forgot there 
> was such a big incentive (though strictly speaking, that would work out not 
> quite as bad as it sounds, since they would be getting the cash up front 
> and selling at retail.) But as I said, I like your idea. It could also 
> feature non-cash incentives, kind of like a club--advance notice of sales, 
> upgrades like pine tar or autographed books when buying that stuff, etc. 
> The first 100 to sign up would be eligible to get their (full price) saddle 
> sacks monogrammed! On second thought, maybe that would all be a bit too 
> much for Grant & Co.
>
>  
>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Steve Palincsar]

"Sleeping" as in "Sleeps with the fishes..." ?


On 09/15/2016 04:56 PM, James Warren wrote:



-Original Message-

From: Steve Palincsar 
...I think back on or see examples of some of
the "sleeping" models like the All-Rounder and the Rambouillet and I
cannot help but think, what a shame.



All Rounder was never said to be sleeping.

Riv never promised models would be around forever, and they once used the 
unclear metaphor of sleeping (for the Ram). And it wasn't that unclear.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[James Warren]

-Original Message-
>From: Steve Palincsar 

>...I think back on or see examples of some of 
>the "sleeping" models like the All-Rounder and the Rambouillet and I 
>cannot help but think, what a shame.
>


All Rounder was never said to be sleeping.

Riv never promised models would be around forever, and they once used the 
unclear metaphor of sleeping (for the Ram). And it wasn't that unclear.

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Ryan Fleming]

of the current rivendell line-up they are the least pleasing to my eye. But 
I see their usefulness; they are carefully and purposefully designed, and 
I'm sure very rugged as most Rivendells are. If I thought my partner would 
ever get on a bike again, I would order him one in a heartbeat. Hell, if I 
was flush, I'd order two

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 2:12:04 PM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> I like a nice lug myself, but I believe the Clem, between the oversize 
> tubing, the fork crowns and seat tube cluster, the proportional sizing, and 
> the luscious paint and colors, has a distinct beauty and substantial 
> presence that marks it as something made with care and purpose, and its own 
> equally wonderful aesthetic. Yum!
>
> On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 2:04:20 PM UTC-4, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>>
>>  The Clems are certainly more affordable...but I do love the lugs and 
>> aesthetically I'd say the Clems are the least pleasing to my eye
>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[RichS]

Patrick, the 51 Sam does come with 650b wheels. It's a wonderful ride too! Hard 
to imagine the Sam disappearing from the lineup.

Believe Grant stated in a recent post the Cheviot would be going away due to 
high production costs.

Is there something to the recent request for more dealers? Expansion of the 
Clem lineup? More sizes, larger inventory, the proposed roadish Clem?

Regards,
Richard

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Edwin W]

Lots of good points here. I hope Grant and co are listening to their free 
consultants. You get what you pay for!

Keep Atlantis, AHH, Hunq and Roadeo as made to order. Like Bill said, no 
hurt on the cash flow.

Clem/Clementine as entry level, taste the kool aid. Work hard to keep the 
popular sizes in stock.
Appaloosa as the country bike/tourer. Stick with one color, change it once 
a year or so.
Sounding too much like LHT? Innovate or die?

Sam gets tossed - no advantage over the Appaloosa, except that it fits 
better in a few cars because of shorter chainstays. Cut Appaloosa chain 
stays to closer to Sam. 48-50cm?
Betty, Cheviot, etc get tossed for same reason. If you are dying for a 
step through, just get the Clem low, and I am figuring they don't sell many 
>$2000 mixtes.

Me, I got a used Raleigh Sprite off this list, then a used Sam, then a Joe 
Appaloosa, then who knows what in five years! Atlanti are the coolest, in 
my book.

Edwin


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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 03:30 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

"There is a big conceptual difference between a "rest" and a "permanent
cancellation."   Something that is "resting" will at some point come
back.  That's almost certainly not what we're talking about here. "

OK, I think I understand.  When you said "trouble is", you didn't mean 
there was any trouble.  You meant to say "truth is".


I agree with you, that Rivendell models that get phased out rarely get 
phased back in.  You surprised me by calling that "truth" a "trouble", 
because I know as well as you do that you won't be buying any 
Rivendells nor will you be handwringing over any Rivendells being 
discontinued.  The only one I can think of is the Legolas.  You can 
buy a nice new Legolas today, and it looks exactly like a Legolas of 
years ago, and there was a multi-year rest in which you couldn't buy a 
Legolas.  They can't promote it because of that lame Tolkein estate 
business, but you can get it.




Misunderstandings and false assumptions can lead to disappointment when 
the error is revealed.  I personally won't be wringing my hands over any 
Rivendells being discontinued, but we do see people expressing 
disappointment that they failed to get one of the now-gone models when 
it was available because they thought they could always get one later.  
And honestly, when I see pictures of some of the more recent double top 
tube Rivs with cruiser bars, I think back on or see examples of some of 
the "sleeping" models like the All-Rounder and the Rambouillet and I 
cannot help but think, what a shame.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Bill Lindsay]

"There is a big conceptual difference between a "rest" and a "permanent 
cancellation."   Something that is "resting" will at some point come 
back.  That's almost certainly not what we're talking about here. "

OK, I think I understand.  When you said "trouble is", you didn't mean 
there was any trouble.  You meant to say "truth is".  

I agree with you, that Rivendell models that get phased out rarely get 
phased back in.  You surprised me by calling that "truth" a "trouble", 
because I know as well as you do that you won't be buying any Rivendells 
nor will you be handwringing over any Rivendells being discontinued.  The 
only one I can think of is the Legolas.  You can buy a nice new Legolas 
today, and it looks exactly like a Legolas of years ago, and there was a 
multi-year rest in which you couldn't buy a Legolas.  They can't promote it 
because of that lame Tolkein estate business, but you can get it.  


On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 09/15/2016 03:02 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote: 
> > "Trouble is, in most cases a "rest" largely resembles a dirt nap. How 
> > many models that have been "given a rest" have ever resurfaced? " 
> > 
> > Not many.  Why is that a 'trouble', as you put it?  Is there a 
> > discontinued model of Rivendell that you wish you could buy?  If no, 
> > what's the trouble, exactly? 
> > 
>
> There is a big conceptual difference between a "rest" and a "permanent 
> cancellation."   Something that is "resting" will at some point come 
> back.  That's almost certainly not what we're talking about here. 
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Ouch! That makes Riv customers practically guilty of usury! I forgot there 
was such a big incentive (though strictly speaking, that would work out not 
quite as bad as it sounds, since they would be getting the cash up front 
and selling at retail.) But as I said, I like your idea. It could also 
feature non-cash incentives, kind of like a club--advance notice of sales, 
upgrades like pine tar or autographed books when buying that stuff, etc. 
The first 100 to sign up would be eligible to get their (full price) saddle 
sacks monogrammed! On second thought, maybe that would all be a bit too 
much for Grant & Co.

 
On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 3:11:14 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> "along the concept of Community Supported Agriculture. I recall Riv having 
> tried something along these lines as a one-time thing, but not a formal 
> program. I wonder how that went."
>
> the one-time-thing I recall was a bit of a cash-flow pickle.  They needed 
> a bunch of quick cash to pay for a 100 bike order.  They sold $3000 store 
> credits for $2500, which is pretty expensive cash.  Now I think they have 
> line-of-credit arrangements so they'll never have to do that again.  The 
> fact is, they pay something for line of credit money.  The rate is low 
> because interest rates are really low, and they pay nothing if they aren't 
> using it.  If there was a way for them to incentivize their customers to 
> invest in the business, that got them access to even cheaper cash than a 
> line of credit offers, that would be cool for them.  
>
> Bill
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[masmojo]

Yes, giving a model a nap could be the coda of that model, but more then likely 
it would also ultimately mean the genesis of another. With a growing number of 
choices, adding anything new may generate new sales, but many times it will be 
at the expense of other models. There can be little doubt that Joe App. Sales 
have most likely adversely effected Sam sales and possibly Hunq/Atlantis sales. 
The Tandem  & Rosco Bubbe projects will likely have some trickle down to the 
regular line & rather then refreshing something it might indeed make sense to 
make more drastic changes.
All decisions have a financial aspect, but to concentrate on that or make that 
the primary driver in this decision might be wrong in this particular 
circumstance. Aside from the obvious costs associated with storing multiple  
sizes & colors of quite a few different bikes. Could be just a need to step 
back and ask if maybe the train has gone off the rails slightly, a realignment!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 03:02 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

"Trouble is, in most cases a "rest" largely resembles a dirt nap. How
many models that have been "given a rest" have ever resurfaced? "

Not many.  Why is that a 'trouble', as you put it?  Is there a 
discontinued model of Rivendell that you wish you could buy?  If no, 
what's the trouble, exactly?




There is a big conceptual difference between a "rest" and a "permanent 
cancellation."   Something that is "resting" will at some point come 
back.  That's almost certainly not what we're talking about here.



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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I like a nice lug myself, but I believe the Clem, between the oversize 
tubing, the fork crowns and seat tube cluster, the proportional sizing, and 
the luscious paint and colors, has a distinct beauty and substantial 
presence that marks it as something made with care and purpose, and its own 
equally wonderful aesthetic. Yum!

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 2:04:20 PM UTC-4, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>
>  The Clems are certainly more affordable...but I do love the lugs and 
> aesthetically I'd say the Clems are the least pleasing to my eye
>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Bill Lindsay]

"along the concept of Community Supported Agriculture. I recall Riv having 
tried something along these lines as a one-time thing, but not a formal 
program. I wonder how that went."

the one-time-thing I recall was a bit of a cash-flow pickle.  They needed a 
bunch of quick cash to pay for a 100 bike order.  They sold $3000 store 
credits for $2500, which is pretty expensive cash.  Now I think they have 
line-of-credit arrangements so they'll never have to do that again.  The 
fact is, they pay something for line of credit money.  The rate is low 
because interest rates are really low, and they pay nothing if they aren't 
using it.  If there was a way for them to incentivize their customers to 
invest in the business, that got them access to even cheaper cash than a 
line of credit offers, that would be cool for them.  

Bill


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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Bill Lindsay]

"Trouble is, in most cases a "rest" largely resembles a dirt nap. How 
many models that have been "given a rest" have ever resurfaced? "

Not many.  Why is that a 'trouble', as you put it?  Is there a discontinued 
model of Rivendell that you wish you could buy?  If no, what's the trouble, 
exactly?

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Interesting idea, Bill. Kind of like Community Supported Bicycles, along 
the concept of Community Supported Agriculture. I recall Riv having tried 
something along these lines as a one-time thing, but not a formal program. 
I wonder how that went.

While it's true that this is mainly a financial issue, that gets more 
complex in a company that also has other strong values in addition to the 
bottom line, as well as a likely emotional content that could be 
problematic in such a situation. While by no means a direct comparison,  
some of the same issues that Riv faces were ones that William Morris and 
the craft movement 

 
attempted to deal with. 

Trying to run a company that attempts to adhere to a set of values that can 
run contrary to squeezing nickels out of every pore is not easy. It *is* 
interesting and important, though, because the global economy as it was 
envisioned is faltering, and will not work much longer. There are no direct 
and clear answers or solutions, but every attempt at creating useful 
objects and rewarding work that tries to address some of the ways the 
current system is not working/actively harmful is worth supporting whenever 
possible.

Because there is such an effort to make every bicycle useful, overlap is 
inevitable. Someone mentioned retooling the Roadeo to accept wider tires, 
but I suspect that would only make things even harder. There is the matter 
of evolving design parameters--upright, extrawide tires, lng 
chainstays.  If that is a firm belief, creating the Rivendell line 
exclusively with these features would be one way to go. And/Or, for 
marketing clarity, to create two distinct classes of Riv to put the various 
bikes under on the website.

*Classic Road*
Roadeo/tig roadeo; AHH; Sam; Cheviot.
  
*Street and Trail*
Hunq; Atlantis; Appaloosa; Clem.

Probably not something overly appealing to the company approach, to 
strictly categorize like this, but I do believe it could help sell more 
bicycles. Further distinction and breakdown in the taxonomy would of course 
be in the intro to each section and the individual model page, written by 
the excellent in-house marketing dept. Based on what others are saying 
about frames that are ordered individually vs. in bulk, they could then 
pick one bulk order frame from each category to rest for a cycle or two 
(Which I believe they kind of do already. Somewhat related: One aspect of 
the Riv website I find mildly confusing is there seems to be a number of 
place where the same model is presented. I realize this has something to to 
with stock, complete builds, etc., but that could be done better.)  

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 1:13:12 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> The real solution (in my mind) is a Riv FSA program (FSA=Flexible Spending 
> Account).  If 250 debt-free Riv customers each bought a $2000 store credit 
> from Rivendell today, that would be a half-million in cash that Riv could 
> use to ride through the ups and downs.  I
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 01:32 PM, masmojo wrote:

Not really sure what can be done, other then giving some models a rest.


Trouble is, in most cases a "rest" largely resembles a dirt nap. How 
many models that have been "given a rest" have ever resurfaced?



To me there's a whole lot of crossover between the Joe App., Atlantis, Hunq., Homer & Sam. 
But, they are all distinctive in some way. Grant will NEVER throw out the Homer or Atlantis 
& there's little point in eliminating the bikes that are made to order anywayz. About the 
only place things get muddy for me is when it comes to the Sam & the Joe App.! The Sam has 
come with Cantis. in the past; that, the longer stays and the new fork crown are all that 
really separate the two in my mind. I think if the Sam came with  Cantilevers I would drop the 
Joe App. Or keep the Joe App. & drop the Sam (which I think is what will happen)
People will scream, but the Sam could come back later.



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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Garth]

FWIW, from what I understand the difference between a made to order and full 
custom is the specific builder. Wford is built by hand but in accordance to 
whatever their method of choosing who builds what is. They sell customs 
themselves for much more $ themselves so I would think these would be built by 
their best builders and devote the most time to in detail and finishig.  The 
made for Riv models would get that attentions, so while made by a custom 
builder the level of detail and finish wouldn't be there.  I have seen first 
hand and have heard enough not to be overly impressed with their quality of 
such frames. 

As for what to keep, voting here while fun and all hopefully has no influence 
on GP's decisions.  Making decisions to makes cuts, to deny oneself the 
inherent sense of freedom we all are, has no good outcomes ever. We may think 
this or that, but the heart is too pure to ever be reasoned and rationed with 
and we all know it, but few live it.  Heck, I say design and ride what you 
really love , the heart never misleads or displeases. The customers will always 
be there to appreciate the beauty and freedom their bicycle represents to them, 
and isn't this what life is all about, living your inherent freedom ?  No, we 
cannot we lose it or even give it awày, even if we try, as we are who and what 
we are and nothing can change this. 

That is all I have to say about that , cheer-i-O !

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Kai Vierstra]

"aesthetically I'd say the Clems are the least pleasing to my eye"
-obviously you've never seen the 65's, straight seatstays make all the 
difference.
My list-
1. Quickbeam*
2. Clem
3. Roadini**

-Kai Vierstra 
Brooklyn NY 

*I know, already disqualified 

**presumption 

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Ryan Fleming]

The FSA is not a bad idea at all

And for the made-to-order Waterford-built bikes and customs...I feel a 
larger down payment would help, as well , if you have the means to do so

As for what to keep..the Atlantis, the Sam, the Roadeo and either the Clems 
as the gateway drug or the Cheviot  in keeping with the somewhat ageing 
demographic...I'm torn between the Chev and the Clems. The Clems are 
certainly more affordable...but I do love the lugs and aesthetically I'd 
say the Clems are the least pleasing to my eye

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 12:13:12 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I have several thoughts on this.  When Rivendell Bicycle Works faces 
> questions like this, it is 95% a financial question, and most importantly a 
> cashflow question.  RBW does roughly $2M in sales annually, and I will 
> guess has roughly $400,000 to $600,000 of inventory on their shelves on a 
> given day.  That money that is tied up on the shelves shackles them.  It 
> makes it hard to pay rent, pay salaries, and buy more stuff for the 
> shelves.  They consistently have cashflow challenges, several times a year. 
>  The hard questions they have to ask themselves is whether there is a way 
> to reduce the amount of cash tied up on the shelves without radically 
> reducing sales volume.  
>
> All the made-to-order bikes have essentially ZERO impact on this.  The 
> only tiny pain-point when you order a Hilsen is that they only make you pay 
> half up front.  If you want to be helpful to RBW's cash flow situation, 
> make a much bigger deposit on your made-to-order frame.  Count on all the 
> made to order frames remaining available, because they have very little 
> impact on Riv's cash-flow.  Scott got this 100% correct.  
>
> Bikes that Riv has to order 100-at-a-time are SUPER painful to them from a 
> cashflow perspective, so Clems, Appaloosas, Cheviuts, and Sams are all 
> painful, and something has to give there.  Even now they miss sales because 
> they don't have any medium size Appaloosas or Cheviuts and even the next 
> order of Cheviuts are almost sold out in 55.  
>
> It is fun to speculate/debate what would hurt the least to cut.  In my 
> mind the biggest cash sink is complete Appaloosas and complete Sams.  A 
> hundred complete Appaloosas on the shelf is a quarter million dollars in 
> retail value.  A hundred Appaloosa framesets is half that, and you can 
> build them up as they sell, ordering parts as you need them.  We, the 
> customers might end up paying $3000 instead of $2600 for the same bike, but 
> that would help the cash flow situation.
>
> The real solution (in my mind) is a Riv FSA program (FSA=Flexible Spending 
> Account).  If 250 debt-free Riv customers each bought a $2000 store credit 
> from Rivendell today, that would be a half-million in cash that Riv could 
> use to ride through the ups and downs.  If you know for a fact you are 
> eventually going to spend money at RBW and you have money today, why not 
> just buy a store credit from them today?  That's the way we can have a say 
> in what they keep on the shelves.  Maybe Riv gives a TINY discount, like 
> they sell you a $2100 store credit for $2000.  If a ton of us who want to 
> see them continue to succeed invested in that way, they would be WAY better 
> off.  They are not set up to manage tiny FSA's, so I don't think 2500 of us 
> each doing $200 would be as helpful.  The ideal situation would be ten 
> people each endowing Riv with $50k, and call them silent partners, but 
> that's not likely to happen.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 9:46:30 AM UTC-7, Scott McLain wrote:
>>
>> I thought it would be interesting if someone could set up a google survey 
>> on this to see how the numbers came back.  Like others have said, 
>> recognizing that there are a lot of variables that I don't know about and 
>> probably wouldn't understand, I will share my uneducated opinion.
>>
>> Go build to order on the Waterford frames, but keep them all available. 
>>  Don't need to stock demo's at Riv HQ.  Even if this mean a small price 
>> increase.  This is a boundary condition for me.  I bought an AHH because I 
>> wanted a MUSA bike.  I am an engineer in the manufacturing industry.
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Bill, that's a GREAT idea. I would absolutely be willing to open a $2000 (or 
more) FSA. I know I'll end up spending the money anyway and I would love to 
help take the pressure off of Grant, who has contributed so much to others and 
influenced me and my riding (as well as, to some extent, my worldview).

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[masmojo]

Not really sure what can be done, other then giving some models a rest.
To me there's a whole lot of crossover between the Joe App., Atlantis, Hunq., 
Homer & Sam. But, they are all distinctive in some way. Grant will NEVER throw 
out the Homer or Atlantis & there's little point in eliminating the bikes that 
are made to order anywayz. About the only place things get muddy for me is when 
it comes to the Sam & the Joe App.! The Sam has come with Cantis. in the past; 
that, the longer stays and the new fork crown are all that really separate the 
two in my mind. I think if the Sam came with  Cantilevers I would drop the Joe 
App. Or keep the Joe App. & drop the Sam (which I think is what will happen)
People will scream, but the Sam could come back later.

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Lungimsam]

Some forums have a poll function, that would be fun for this forum.

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Bill Lindsay]

I have several thoughts on this.  When Rivendell Bicycle Works faces 
questions like this, it is 95% a financial question, and most importantly a 
cashflow question.  RBW does roughly $2M in sales annually, and I will 
guess has roughly $400,000 to $600,000 of inventory on their shelves on a 
given day.  That money that is tied up on the shelves shackles them.  It 
makes it hard to pay rent, pay salaries, and buy more stuff for the 
shelves.  They consistently have cashflow challenges, several times a year. 
 The hard questions they have to ask themselves is whether there is a way 
to reduce the amount of cash tied up on the shelves without radically 
reducing sales volume.  

All the made-to-order bikes have essentially ZERO impact on this.  The only 
tiny pain-point when you order a Hilsen is that they only make you pay half 
up front.  If you want to be helpful to RBW's cash flow situation, make a 
much bigger deposit on your made-to-order frame.  Count on all the made to 
order frames remaining available, because they have very little impact on 
Riv's cash-flow.  Scott got this 100% correct.  

Bikes that Riv has to order 100-at-a-time are SUPER painful to them from a 
cashflow perspective, so Clems, Appaloosas, Cheviuts, and Sams are all 
painful, and something has to give there.  Even now they miss sales because 
they don't have any medium size Appaloosas or Cheviuts and even the next 
order of Cheviuts are almost sold out in 55.  

It is fun to speculate/debate what would hurt the least to cut.  In my mind 
the biggest cash sink is complete Appaloosas and complete Sams.  A hundred 
complete Appaloosas on the shelf is a quarter million dollars in retail 
value.  A hundred Appaloosa framesets is half that, and you can build them 
up as they sell, ordering parts as you need them.  We, the customers might 
end up paying $3000 instead of $2600 for the same bike, but that would help 
the cash flow situation.

The real solution (in my mind) is a Riv FSA program (FSA=Flexible Spending 
Account).  If 250 debt-free Riv customers each bought a $2000 store credit 
from Rivendell today, that would be a half-million in cash that Riv could 
use to ride through the ups and downs.  If you know for a fact you are 
eventually going to spend money at RBW and you have money today, why not 
just buy a store credit from them today?  That's the way we can have a say 
in what they keep on the shelves.  Maybe Riv gives a TINY discount, like 
they sell you a $2100 store credit for $2000.  If a ton of us who want to 
see them continue to succeed invested in that way, they would be WAY better 
off.  They are not set up to manage tiny FSA's, so I don't think 2500 of us 
each doing $200 would be as helpful.  The ideal situation would be ten 
people each endowing Riv with $50k, and call them silent partners, but 
that's not likely to happen.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 9:46:30 AM UTC-7, Scott McLain wrote:
>
> I thought it would be interesting if someone could set up a google survey 
> on this to see how the numbers came back.  Like others have said, 
> recognizing that there are a lot of variables that I don't know about and 
> probably wouldn't understand, I will share my uneducated opinion.
>
> Go build to order on the Waterford frames, but keep them all available. 
>  Don't need to stock demo's at Riv HQ.  Even if this mean a small price 
> increase.  This is a boundary condition for me.  I bought an AHH because I 
> wanted a MUSA bike.  I am an engineer in the manufacturing industry.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Patrick Moore]

What is this "Roadini"? Is it a Roadeo replacement? I've heard the name but
no description.

Whatever it is, Grant, please don't overbuild it.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Scott McLain 
wrote:

> I thought it would be interesting if someone could set up a google survey
> on this to see how the numbers came back.  Like others have said,
> recognizing that there are a lot of variables that I don't know about and
> probably wouldn't understand, I will share my uneducated opinion.
>
> Go build to order on the Waterford frames, but keep them all available.
> Don't need to stock demo's at Riv HQ.  Even if this mean a small price
> increase.  This is a boundary condition for me.  I bought an AHH because I
> wanted a MUSA bike.  I am an engineer in the manufacturing industry.
>
> From there, and this is where it gets hard.
> Keep the Sam, the quintessential Riv. and the Taiwan lower cost of entry
> country bike.
> Keep the Cheviot, it is leading a step through renaissance.  With more
> roadies hitting 60, this bike will continue to sell.
> Keep both the Clem models, maybe tweak the design a bit to fill the loss
> of the...
> Drop Appy. I love the Apppaloosa, but... I mean I really love this bike,
> but if it is being marketed primarily as a loaded tourer, there is a lot of
> competition in that space and plenty of options.  If I really have to have
> a Riv for touring, I'm going to pony up the $$$ for the Atlantis.
> Add Roadini, I think Riv is going to kill it on this bike.  The bike world
> is going bananas with comfortable geometry and endurance wiz bang.  When a
> person swings a leg over a beautiful steel road bike that has high handle
> bars, wow.  It is a better ride than anything else.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 7:48:47 PM UTC-6, Tim wrote:
>>
>> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be
>> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all.
>> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut
>> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond
>> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any
>> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so
>> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes
>> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike
>> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>>
>> Atlantis
>> A. Homer Hilsen
>> Roadeo
>> Joe Appaloosa
>> Clem Smith Jr.
>> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>>
>> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
>> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an
>> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the
>> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at
>> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better
>> description, the "poor man's Atlantis.
>>
>> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my
>> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>>
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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Scott McLain]

I thought it would be interesting if someone could set up a google survey 
on this to see how the numbers came back.  Like others have said, 
recognizing that there are a lot of variables that I don't know about and 
probably wouldn't understand, I will share my uneducated opinion.

Go build to order on the Waterford frames, but keep them all available. 
 Don't need to stock demo's at Riv HQ.  Even if this mean a small price 
increase.  This is a boundary condition for me.  I bought an AHH because I 
wanted a MUSA bike.  I am an engineer in the manufacturing industry.

>From there, and this is where it gets hard.
Keep the Sam, the quintessential Riv. and the Taiwan lower cost of entry 
country bike.
Keep the Cheviot, it is leading a step through renaissance.  With more 
roadies hitting 60, this bike will continue to sell.
Keep both the Clem models, maybe tweak the design a bit to fill the loss of 
the...
Drop Appy. I love the Apppaloosa, but... I mean I really love this bike, 
but if it is being marketed primarily as a loaded tourer, there is a lot of 
competition in that space and plenty of options.  If I really have to have 
a Riv for touring, I'm going to pony up the $$$ for the Atlantis.
Add Roadini, I think Riv is going to kill it on this bike.  The bike world 
is going bananas with comfortable geometry and endurance wiz bang.  When a 
person swings a leg over a beautiful steel road bike that has high handle 
bars, wow.  It is a better ride than anything else.

Scott


On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 7:48:47 PM UTC-6, Tim wrote:
>
> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be 
> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. 
> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut 
> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond 
> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any 
> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so 
> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes 
> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike 
> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>
> Atlantis
> A. Homer Hilsen
> Roadeo
> Joe Appaloosa
> Clem Smith Jr.
> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>
> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an 
> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the 
> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at 
> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better 
> description, the "poor man's Atlantis. 
>
> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my 
> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Patrick Moore]

Sorry, the Hillborne does not fill the "road bike" niche; it's a country
bike indeed, and may do well on the road for some riders, but if Rivendell
has a road bike demand, they must keep or replace the Roadeo.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:28 PM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> If they keep all of the current offerings on a "built to order basis", I
> can see them only stocking the Sam, Clem/Clementine, Appaloosa & Cheviot.
> That gives them budget versions of a road bike, an all-purpose bike, a
> touring bike and a mixte.  That's assuming a Sam has light enough tubing
> and the Appaloosa has heavy enough tubing.
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
>> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be
>> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all.
>> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut
>> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond
>> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any
>> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so
>> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes
>> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike
>> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>>
>> Atlantis
>> A. Homer Hilsen
>> Roadeo
>> Joe Appaloosa
>> Clem Smith Jr.
>> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>>
>> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
>> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an
>> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the
>> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at
>> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better
>> description, the "poor man's Atlantis.
>>
>> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my
>> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Patrick Moore]

*And* Rivendell should start stocking Compass tires, or at least, similar
light supple ones to be set up tubeless. That alone should make it easier
to ride narrower tires off road because of the cushioning and the flat
resistance. No need for heavy belts.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> I agree with Bill. Heck, on firm dirt and gravel with good tires, 28 mm
> does wonderfully well, as I can attest with my Compass Elk Passes, which
> are meant to be 32 mm wide but in fact measure, on my narrower and wider
> rims, respectively 27 and 29. 32 mm would be practically fat bike velvet.
> In fact, I'd say that Riv should make the Roadeo even more roadie-like by
> lightening the tubing.
>
> Can the Hill take 45s and fenders, or 50s without? If not, make it so!
> Make the smaller models with 650B wheels.
>
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Bill M.  wrote:
>
>> Sorry, can't agree.  The Roadeo is set up to maximize clearance with a
>> standard reach caliper.  Stretching it to bigger rubber would mean
>> different brakes, and basically make it a slightly lighter Hilsen.  Too
>> much overlap there.  IMO 28 - 33 mm is a sweet spot for a fast,
>> comfortable, paved road, club-sport-not-quite-a-racing bike.
>>
>> I've been thinking about having a custom frame built.  Every time I take
>> a stab at the geometry I'd want, then nudge it back to what can actually be
>> built without running into clearance problems, I wind up with something
>> that might as well be a Roadeo.
>>
>>


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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[sameness]

Atlantis, AHH and Cheviot.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Patrick Moore]

I agree with Bill. Heck, on firm dirt and gravel with good tires, 28 mm
does wonderfully well, as I can attest with my Compass Elk Passes, which
are meant to be 32 mm wide but in fact measure, on my narrower and wider
rims, respectively 27 and 29. 32 mm would be practically fat bike velvet.
In fact, I'd say that Riv should make the Roadeo even more roadie-like by
lightening the tubing.

Can the Hill take 45s and fenders, or 50s without? If not, make it so! Make
the smaller models with 650B wheels.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Bill M.  wrote:

> Sorry, can't agree.  The Roadeo is set up to maximize clearance with a
> standard reach caliper.  Stretching it to bigger rubber would mean
> different brakes, and basically make it a slightly lighter Hilsen.  Too
> much overlap there.  IMO 28 - 33 mm is a sweet spot for a fast,
> comfortable, paved road, club-sport-not-quite-a-racing bike.
>
> I've been thinking about having a custom frame built.  Every time I take a
> stab at the geometry I'd want, then nudge it back to what can actually be
> built without running into clearance problems, I wind up with something
> that might as well be a Roadeo.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Patrick Moore]

Aren't these the perennial best sellers: Atlantis and Hillborne? They need
a road bike; so Roadeo. Then a "cruiser" -- isn't the Clem the most popular?

Atlantis, Hillborne, Roadeo, Clem: that seems like a pretty good cross
section of the market.

If they must have 650B, then perhaps offer 650B versions of Atlantis and
Roadeo? Or Atlantis and Hillborne? Or add a -- well, 650B model; I'm not up
to par on the 650B ones.

And wasn't the Hunq a best seller?

Thus, in order of what seems best by demand:

Atlantis
Hillborne
Clem
Roadeo
650B bike
Hunq-type
Single Speed

That's down from current 10, not including customs.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Will  wrote:

> I think Hillborne needs to on the list, particularly if they go back to
> canti-posts for it. It is a beautiful, smart, bike. Clem can take a
> vacation. I had very high hopes for Appaloosa but the 55cm chainstays
> dampened that enthusiasm. So I'd give that a rest as well. If any bike in
> the line-up needs an update, it's Roadeo. Tires options are much better
> these days. It would be nice if Roadeo was configured to take more rubber.
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>>
>> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be
>> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all.
>> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut
>> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond
>> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any
>> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so
>> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes
>> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike
>> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>>
>> Atlantis
>> A. Homer Hilsen
>> Roadeo
>> Joe Appaloosa
>> Clem Smith Jr.
>> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>>
>> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
>> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an
>> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the
>> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at
>> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better
>> description, the "poor man's Atlantis.
>>
>> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my
>> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>>
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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[sprocket67]

My suggestion is to add more space tot he showroom/shop. All of the Riv 
bikes are unique in their own way and certainly unlike anything being mass 
produced. 

Doug

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 9:48:47 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
>
> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be 
> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. 
> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut 
> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond 
> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any 
> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so 
> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes 
> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike 
> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>
> Atlantis
> A. Homer Hilsen
> Roadeo
> Joe Appaloosa
> Clem Smith Jr.
> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>
> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an 
> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the 
> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at 
> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better 
> description, the "poor man's Atlantis. 
>
> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my 
> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Will]

I dunno... Jan Heine is testing go-fasts all the time. They take 40-50mm 
tires. I think many of us would agree that the narrow tire era is drawing 
to a close. The rational for "narrowness" has been discredited. 
Roadeo could be configured to take more rubber without turning it into a 
Hilson. If not, I think it becomes a sales orphan. IIRC Grant said sales 
were something like 45 bikes per year. 

This is the hole in the Riv lineup. There are lots-o-mules and semi-mules: 
Atlantis, Hunq, Clem, Chev, Appaloosa... not many sporties... Riv needs an 
updated lively go-fast. 

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 10:11:04 PM UTC-5, Bill M. wrote:
>
> Sorry, can't agree.  The Roadeo is set up to maximize clearance with a 
> standard reach caliper.  Stretching it to bigger rubber would mean 
> different brakes, and basically make it a slightly lighter Hilsen.  Too 
> much overlap there.  IMO 28 - 33 mm is a sweet spot for a fast, 
> comfortable, paved road, club-sport-not-quite-a-racing bike.  
>
> I've been thinking about having a custom frame built.  Every time I take a 
> stab at the geometry I'd want, then nudge it back to what can actually be 
> built without running into clearance problems, I wind up with something 
> that might as well be a Roadeo.
>
> As for what Riv should keep, IMO the core is:
> Roadeo
> Atlantis
> Homer
> Sam
> Anything else could rotate in and out of the batting order.  Can one bike 
> sit in the middle of the Hunq/Joe/Clem/Cheviot space as an affordable rough 
> stuff / commuter / shopper / budget tourer / lowered top tube bike?
>
> Bill
> Stockton, CA
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 7:33:58 PM UTC-7, Will wrote:
>>
>>  If any bike in the line-up needs an update, it's Roadeo. Tires options 
>> are much better these days. It would be nice if Roadeo was configured to 
>> take more rubber.   
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[David Stein]

Tim - I thought about that too. What makes a bike a 'made to order' vs a
custom? The 'made to order' models aren't ordered in bulk. I ordered my
hunq and had to wait in line for it to be made per my order, and was
shipped as a single bike from waterford to rivendell. But maybe in order to
get that price (which is lower than a custom) they have to commit to doing
so many a year? If so that would be a more involved decision on whether to
include or not include the 'made to order' models in their catalog.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 8:08 AM, 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> My thought, when thinking of some of these models being made to order, was
> that they then become "custom", which I thought would mean that they would
> be priced as a custom. I think I remember recently that someone had a
> Glorius made by Mark Nobilette. So my thought was that although you could
> still get the discontinued models, you'd have to love them enough to pay an
> extra $1200 or so for them. If they were discontinued they would no longer
> be available from Waterford or Taiwan because those frames are the price
> they are because they are ordered in bulk. I probably should have clarified
> that in my OP. But then again, all of this is wild speculation on my part,
> which is probably what I am best at.
>
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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

My thought, when thinking of some of these models being made to order, was that 
they then become "custom", which I thought would mean that they would be priced 
as a custom. I think I remember recently that someone had a Glorius made by 
Mark Nobilette. So my thought was that although you could still get the 
discontinued models, you'd have to love them enough to pay an extra $1200 or so 
for them. If they were discontinued they would no longer be available from 
Waterford or Taiwan because those frames are the price they are because they 
are ordered in bulk. I probably should have clarified that in my OP. But then 
again, all of this is wild speculation on my part, which is probably what I am 
best at.

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Jock Dewey]

Y'all: As another just mentioned and good point, too: if it's not a 
'stocking' bike, why not leave that part of the menu as is? 

Roadeo, Atlantis, customs, Hillborne (altho this one is stocking, right?), 
etc. can all stay, yes? It's always a bit sad when a favorite disappears, 
so keep as many as possible. Me? After 12 years, I'm having my RAM 
repainted (paint nearly perfect, but some corrosion on the lug shoulders, 
etc.), it is such a very nice frame. As said, sad to see it go (altho 
Roadeo is most suitable replacement).

Jock Dewey / Athens, GA

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 9:48:47 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
>
> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be 
> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. 
> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut 
> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond 
> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any 
> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so 
> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes 
> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike 
> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>
> Atlantis
> A. Homer Hilsen
> Roadeo
> Joe Appaloosa
> Clem Smith Jr.
> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>
> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an 
> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the 
> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at 
> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better 
> description, the "poor man's Atlantis. 
>
> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my 
> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Bob K.]

The Atlantis is their flagship bike. It says as much on the website. It's also 
beautiful and as others have said, I wouldn't expect it's too big of a stock 
issue to make made-to-order bikes. 

Here's my list:

1. Atlantis
2. Homer
3. Roadeo
4. Sam
5. Joe
6. Clem/entine

But who knows? It could be argued that all the bikes have their niches and that 
it'd be sensible to get rid of the all-arounder types like the Sam and Joe. 
Regardless, they'll keep churning out well-made, beautiful, functional bikes. 
Looking forward to seeing the plan.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[dougP]

There will no doubt be many lively discussions in Walnut Creek but someone will 
compile some sales & profit figures. That info may sober up the conversation 
and determine choices. Hoping Atlantis is a keeper. 

Doug p

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Lungimsam]

I know nothing about bike making and merchandizing. That said, I'd vote for:

Three road bikes at all three weightpoints:
1.700c/650b Roadeo
2. Atlantis (replaces Hunq)
3. Hilsen (replaces Sam)

Mixte:
4. Glorious (if youre gonna do a mixte, might as well do it up)

5. Customs? RBW would know if it is worth it or not to continue with customs.

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[drew]

I think hunq, cheviot and roadeo would cover almost all bases. Or just an 
Atlantis or sam are versatile enough to do most of what we all want and need. 

But Yeah it seems like it's more of a budgetary question rather than an overlap 
one. Right now there is almost an expensive and cheap version of each bike.
Atlantis-Joe
Hunq-Clem
Homer-Sam
Cheviot-Clem L
Roadeo- upcoming road Clem. 

it's a lot of models and I get how it's grown to this point, but In my head it 
makes sense to gradually move everything to the sam model. Nice looking, very 
well made, yet more reasonably priced bikes. One super refined model for each 
purpose. Lugs, nice paint, same names and geometry, but with silver stuff and 
made at maxway.

Likely, a Taiwan made Atlantis will never happen, and i will be sad if it does. 
The current lineup almost seems like it is competing with itself, though. 

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Tony DeFilippo]

Tim, I like your list and was expecting a topic like this to pop up soon after 
the note from Grant do thanks! :)

My list (tonight - might be different tomorrow);

1. Atlantis or Hunq
2. AHH
3. Appaloosa
4. Cheviot
5. Clem/time

Things I'd be thinking about in needing down;

Price slots
Historic sales volume
Frame building sources capacity

Atlantis is a sentimental pick and I agree with Tim it's the quintessential 
Riv, at the same time its very all rounder-ness makes it tough to go head to 
head with other bikes that are set up according to their niche (ie. not as 
sporty as a Homer, not as robust as a Hunq, not as quirky as the Chev, not as 
'cheap' as the Clem... ). I could see the Atlantis going special order and the 
popular Hunq remaining as the production tough Riv.

Homer is the flagship and can be dressed up pretty road oriented if desired.  

Appaloosa vs the Sam is a pick em for me, I've seen the new Appaloosa at Gravel 
and Grind and demo'd a Sam years ago. App gets my nod because it aligns to the 
new long chainstay philosophy and has the similar price point for completes.  
Also maybe it's a misconception but the Sam seems closer to the Homer so the 
App allows greater division of models in my mind.

Cheviot because it seems like Grant takes every opportunity to rave about it... 
And they seem to sell out.

Clem/tine because of their price point/value to customer is so good, it's the 
'gateway drug' or the justifiable second Riv/kids/spouses Riv.

I don't see why the rest of the Waterford built models couldn't be available on 
an build to order status, keep the sizing/geo stock and the prices should be 
pretty close to current listing.  My list does limit the stock MUSA offerings 
to 2 of 5 which seems skewed but I think makes business sense.

My two cents, fun exercise.  Like the 'one bike' discussion for an individual 
writ large.

Tony

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I obviously didn't read the responses before replying since I basically 
posted the same thing as dstein.  Great minds think alike!   ;)  

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 10:28:32 PM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>
> If they keep all of the current offerings on a "built to order basis", I 
> can see them only stocking the Sam, Clem/Clementine, Appaloosa & Cheviot. 
>  That gives them budget versions of a road bike, an all-purpose bike, a 
> touring bike and a mixte.  That's assuming a Sam has light enough tubing 
> and the Appaloosa has heavy enough tubing.  
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>>
>> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be 
>> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. 
>> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut 
>> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond 
>> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any 
>> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so 
>> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes 
>> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike 
>> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>>
>> Atlantis
>> A. Homer Hilsen
>> Roadeo
>> Joe Appaloosa
>> Clem Smith Jr.
>> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>>
>> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
>> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an 
>> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the 
>> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at 
>> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better 
>> description, the "poor man's Atlantis. 
>>
>> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my 
>> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

If they keep all of the current offerings on a "built to order basis", I 
can see them only stocking the Sam, Clem/Clementine, Appaloosa & Cheviot. 
 That gives them budget versions of a road bike, an all-purpose bike, a 
touring bike and a mixte.  That's assuming a Sam has light enough tubing 
and the Appaloosa has heavy enough tubing.  




On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be 
> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. 
> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut 
> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond 
> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any 
> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so 
> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes 
> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike 
> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>
> Atlantis
> A. Homer Hilsen
> Roadeo
> Joe Appaloosa
> Clem Smith Jr.
> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>
> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an 
> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the 
> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at 
> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better 
> description, the "poor man's Atlantis. 
>
> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my 
> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Surlyprof]

I've got a canti-Hillborne and would tend to agree with Will.  It is the 
most comfortable bike I've ever owned and the shorter wheelbase makes it 
great all-arounder on the road-ish side.  I thought I'd want to trade it in 
for an Appaloosa.  However, the more I considered it, the more I thought 
the Hillborne does what I do, about 60% road and 40% trail.  I view the 
Hilson the same way, as an all-arounder on the road-ish side.  I see the 
Atlantis, Hunq and Appaloosa as being more all-arounder on the trail side. 
 With the Hillborne, I can put on a sturdier wheelset with knobbies for 
trail but when I put on the lighter wheelset for road, I get a fun, lively 
ride.  Now, if they could eek out a little more tire clearance (like the 
Appaloosa), that would be a huge winner in my book.  Clems probably need to 
stay as "a gateway Riv".  Plus, they're really fun.

John (who desperately wants a 650b Hunq)

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 6:48:47 PM UTC-7, Tim wrote:
>
> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be 
> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. 
> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut 
> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond 
> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any 
> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so 
> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes 
> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike 
> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>
> Atlantis
> A. Homer Hilsen
> Roadeo
> Joe Appaloosa
> Clem Smith Jr.
> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>
> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an 
> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the 
> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at 
> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better 
> description, the "poor man's Atlantis. 
>
> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my 
> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Bill M.]

Sorry, can't agree.  The Roadeo is set up to maximize clearance with a 
standard reach caliper.  Stretching it to bigger rubber would mean 
different brakes, and basically make it a slightly lighter Hilsen.  Too 
much overlap there.  IMO 28 - 33 mm is a sweet spot for a fast, 
comfortable, paved road, club-sport-not-quite-a-racing bike.  

I've been thinking about having a custom frame built.  Every time I take a 
stab at the geometry I'd want, then nudge it back to what can actually be 
built without running into clearance problems, I wind up with something 
that might as well be a Roadeo.

As for what Riv should keep, IMO the core is:
Roadeo
Atlantis
Homer
Sam
Anything else could rotate in and out of the batting order.  Can one bike 
sit in the middle of the Hunq/Joe/Clem/Cheviot space as an affordable rough 
stuff / commuter / shopper / budget tourer / lowered top tube bike?

Bill
Stockton, CA

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 7:33:58 PM UTC-7, Will wrote:
>
>  If any bike in the line-up needs an update, it's Roadeo. Tires options 
> are much better these days. It would be nice if Roadeo was configured to 
> take more rubber.   
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[dstein]

I am a proud Hunqapillar owner and would say that one should stay since it 
is the best off road option. Though assuming the hunqapillar, rodeo, 
atlantis, and AHH are all made to order and don't take up stock, couldn't 
we leave those off the wish list as it's not much extra effort for 
Rivendell to keep offering them? If so then it seems it boils down to:

Sam Hillborne
Appaloosa
Clem Smith Jr/Clementine
Cheviot

I think it's kinda between the SH and Appaloosa and Clem/Clementime vs. the 
Cheviot. In which case I think the Cheviot and Appaloosa could cede to the 
SH and Clem/Clementine. Though if a road-y version of a Clem is coming that 
would add a little complexity.


On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 7:33:58 PM UTC-7, Will wrote:
>
> I think Hillborne needs to on the list, particularly if they go back to 
> canti-posts for it. It is a beautiful, smart, bike. Clem can take a 
> vacation. I had very high hopes for Appaloosa but the 55cm chainstays 
> dampened that enthusiasm. So I'd give that a rest as well. If any bike in 
> the line-up needs an update, it's Roadeo. Tires options are much better 
> these days. It would be nice if Roadeo was configured to take more rubber. 
>   
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>>
>> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be 
>> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. 
>> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut 
>> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond 
>> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any 
>> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so 
>> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes 
>> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike 
>> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>>
>> Atlantis
>> A. Homer Hilsen
>> Roadeo
>> Joe Appaloosa
>> Clem Smith Jr.
>> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>>
>> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
>> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an 
>> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the 
>> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at 
>> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better 
>> description, the "poor man's Atlantis. 
>>
>> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my 
>> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Will]

I think Hillborne needs to on the list, particularly if they go back to 
canti-posts for it. It is a beautiful, smart, bike. Clem can take a 
vacation. I had very high hopes for Appaloosa but the 55cm chainstays 
dampened that enthusiasm. So I'd give that a rest as well. If any bike in 
the line-up needs an update, it's Roadeo. Tires options are much better 
these days. It would be nice if Roadeo was configured to take more rubber. 
  

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be 
> discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. 
> Soo.this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut 
> wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond 
> farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any 
> of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so 
> on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes 
> to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike 
> they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:
>
> Atlantis
> A. Homer Hilsen
> Roadeo
> Joe Appaloosa
> Clem Smith Jr.
> Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type
>
> My (probably flawed) reasoning:
> Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an 
> awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the 
> one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at 
> a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better 
> description, the "poor man's Atlantis. 
>
> Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my 
> girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.
>
>

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