Re: [RBW] Noticed anything different about front bag handling
Hi, When I ordered my custom Rivendell back in 02 I requested braze-on mounts for a small front rack. I had to send a drawing to Grant to show where I thought the mounts needed to be. At this time I don't Rivendell had a request for such mounts. When I got the bike I eventually mounted a Berthoud front rack and handle bar bag. The Nitto Mark's rack was still years away. The handle bar bag I used was a small one. I did many rides with the set up and never liked it. The weight of the bag made the steering feel floppy. Especially going up hill. And when I got off the bike the bag would twist the front around; to me this was miserable. So I'd say adding a front bag to my Rivendell did indeed affect the handling - in a negative way. Perhaps the Rivendell does not have enough fork rake to offset the bag. James Valiensi, PE Northridge, CA H818.775.1847 M.818.585.1796 On Nov 24, 2011, at 7:41 AM, Jan Heine wrote: On Nov 23, 10:47 am, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: Imagine trying to carry a heavy backpack. You lean forward. When you remove the backpack, while still leaning forward, you fall over. On the other hand, when you add a backpack and don't lean forward, you also fall over. So does the backpack help or hurt your balance? It's neither, the backpack is part of the system that balances. Trying to add a backpack without changing the other variables (lean angle forward/back) does not work well. I like that metaphor. Thanks for that. Have you used that one before? I'd never heard it before. It came to me as I was thinking about how to explain the load being a factor. That is what I like about online discussions - they get you to think about things in different ways. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Noticed anything different about front bag handling
My test used an old Rhode Gear bag, a cheap Sunlite-style rack, and a $25 V-O headset decaleur. Add in nuts, bolts, clamps, scissors, and an ancient toestrap for the bottom. The bag held still and was quiet, and served well through a sagged tour. A good, cheap test. The bag weight rested on the rack and was secured with the toestrap. The decaleur mounted to the bag such that the bag was pulled up and held its original shape. Its integral frame held up the front, for a flat map- reading table on top. No waterproofing, however. On Tuesday, November 22, 2011, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Tue, 2011-11-22 at 11:17 -0800, Rick wrote: You should really spend some time and go through the group archives here and on iBob. There are strong opinions on trail and front bags and front end geometry. The whole topic of front end loading and fork trail can cause very strong opinions among some folks. The best thing to do might be play with a cheap bag to see if you absolutely hate it before plunking down any major expense. This bit was the take away lesson, I'd say. Assuming the cheap bag is supported well, you could get some useful results. I had great success with a much-modified $25 Nashbar Elite bag I used for a couple of years on my Kogswell P/R. But if the bag isn't mounted and supported on a rack the same way as the better bag would be, the results might not be comparable, in that a bag that's loose and free to swing to and fro would have an undesirable effect on the steering that a better-installed bag would not have. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Noticed anything different about front bag handling
on 11/18/11 6:50 PM, Shifty at 1upand1d...@gmail.com wrote: So, I was just about to plunk down a couple of hundred dollars on a Berthoud front bag at Rene Herse. Mike kindly returned my phone call and immediately asked about the bike I was going to put it on. A Rivendell, I replied (A. Homer Hilsen). He said, do you know that the bag's weight will affect the handling somewhat; some people can't live with it while others aren't bothered by it at all. He said it was because of the trail high or low (I don't recall which) of all Rivendell bikes and that Herse bikes have a (high, low?) trail that accounts for weight carrying in the front. So what do YOU think Rivendell front bag owner? Have you ever regretted the effect the bag has on your Rivendell's handling? You should really spend some time and go through the group archives here and on iBob. There are strong opinions on trail and front bags and front end geometry. The whole topic of front end loading and fork trail can cause very strong opinions among some folks. The best thing to do might be play with a cheap bag to see if you absolutely hate it before plunking down any major expense. For me, it makes a huge difference for about 25 yards when I switch between my Quickbeam, which I generally run with a front bag and my Hilsen, which has a rear bag setup. Then I make whatever minor mental/physical adjustments necessary, forget about it and ride. You get used to the way you rig your bike, no matter what you do. I'd get the bag which make sense to you. Best of luck! - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes The Gallery needs your photos! Send 'em in - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines She edged in to get a better look at the bike, how it was made, the intricacy of its brakes and shifters pulling her straight in. Beauty. -- William Gibson, Virtual Light -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Noticed anything different about front bag handling
The great debate rages on. I've only test-ridden low-trail bikes (like the Boulder) with front loads, and couldn't really fell much difference. On my AHH, I have an Acorn Rando that has had up to 10 lbs, as well as the current setup with a platrack and large basket. I can happily carry plenty of weight there without ill effect. Brian Seattle, WA On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 10:24 AM, CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.netwrote: on 11/18/11 6:50 PM, Shifty at 1upand1d...@gmail.com wrote: So, I was just about to plunk down a couple of hundred dollars on a Berthoud front bag at Rene Herse. Mike kindly returned my phone call and immediately asked about the bike I was going to put it on. A Rivendell, I replied (A. Homer Hilsen). He said, do you know that the bag's weight will affect the handling somewhat; some people can't live with it while others aren't bothered by it at all. He said it was because of the trail high or low (I don't recall which) of all Rivendell bikes and that Herse bikes have a (high, low?) trail that accounts for weight carrying in the front. So what do YOU think Rivendell front bag owner? Have you ever regretted the effect the bag has on your Rivendell's handling? You should really spend some time and go through the group archives here and on iBob. There are strong opinions on trail and front bags and front end geometry. The whole topic of front end loading and fork trail can cause very strong opinions among some folks. The best thing to do might be play with a cheap bag to see if you absolutely hate it before plunking down any major expense. For me, it makes a huge difference for about 25 yards when I switch between my Quickbeam, which I generally run with a front bag and my Hilsen, which has a rear bag setup. Then I make whatever minor mental/physical adjustments necessary, forget about it and ride. You get used to the way you rig your bike, no matter what you do. I'd get the bag which make sense to you. Best of luck! - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes The Gallery needs your photos! Send 'em in - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines She edged in to get a better look at the bike, how it was made, the intricacy of its brakes and shifters pulling her straight in. Beauty. -- William Gibson, Virtual Light -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Noticed anything different about front bag handling
I have a 57cm Hilsen with a Mark's rack and I have used a Berthoud 22 bag on the Texas Rando Stampede 1200k and on PBP and the bike handled fine. I purchased the bag from Rene Herse. Mike Kone adds a stiffener to the bag that really helps it hold it's shape. You will have to sew on a strap to the bottom of the bag in order to attach it securely to the rack. Not a big deal but that seems to be a design flaw - maybe the newer Berthoud bags have solved this. By the way, Mike is great to deal with - he may even finish building my Rene Herse bike one of these years ;-) Bill Louisville, Ky On Nov 18, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Shifty wrote: So, I was just about to plunk down a couple of hundred dollars on a Berthoud front bag at Rene Herse. Mike kindly returned my phone call and immediately asked about the bike I was going to put it on. A Rivendell, I replied (A. Homer Hilsen). He said, do you know that the bag's weight will affect the handling somewhat; some people can't live with it while others aren't bothered by it at all. He said it was because of the trail high or low (I don't recall which) of all Rivendell bikes and that Herse bikes have a (high, low?) trail that accounts for weight carrying in the front. So what do YOU think Rivendell front bag owner? Have you ever regretted the effect the bag has on your Rivendell's handling? Thanks, Shifty -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/bO1QlWfKRuIJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Noticed anything different about front bag handling
There is a happy connection between frame/fork design, notably the tendency of the front wheel to turn of its own; weight over the front wheel -- and this includes body weight, and changes with stem length and bar height; and the rider's tolerance for or perception of or preference for a bicycle's self-steering behavior. Further! How the weight is attached to frame or fork and how far it is from the steering axis and, further, how high it it is, all affect the final result. But generally speaking, Rivendells don't handle front loads as well as lower trail/lower flop designs. I have a Herse which is designed for at least modest front loads and two Rivs (customs); the Herse can handle up to, say, 15 lb in front with little degradation of handling while, with the Rivs, anything more than a couple of pounds makes the handling worse. I personally like the way the Rivs turn for me better than the more aloof quality of the Herse steering. My erswhile Sam Hill handled foully -- to my taste -- with anything over a couple of lbs in front; even if the weight were low, in low-riding panniers. But then, I found the SH to handle in a rather mediocre way all around except in its quality of carving fast downhill sweepers with confidence and accuracy. My other three (custom, one sold) Rivs felt far more stable while in no way feeling sluggish in turns -- best of both worlds, so to speak. OTOH, others on this list have said they sling considerable weights in front of their Sam Hills and find the results perfectly acceptable. Upshot: your own tolerance or predilections will count for a lot, but generally speaking riders who like weight in front will choose lower trail designs. Me, I have a medium sized bag on the Herse into which I will carry a load up to, say, a six pack or a goodly sized ham. The Herse can take rear loads up to say, 20 lb, as long as there is at least 10 lb in front, but it is very unhappy with rear biased heavy loads. For very heavy loads I'd need the front low riders. On the commuter Riv, my front loads are limited to kit, Edeluxe and other stuff no bigger in bulk than the size of my two fists. I have a small VO Randonneur rack and -- thanks to Ely Rodriguez -- a custom front bag about the size of a Banana Bag. The bigger loads go on the rear. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Shifty 1upand1d...@gmail.com wrote: So, I was just about to plunk down a couple of hundred dollars on a Berthoud front bag at Rene Herse. Mike kindly returned my phone call and immediately asked about the bike I was going to put it on. A Rivendell, I replied (A. Homer Hilsen). He said, do you know that the bag's weight will affect the handling somewhat; some people can't live with it while others aren't bothered by it at all. He said it was because of the trail high or low (I don't recall which) of all Rivendell bikes and that Herse bikes have a (high, low?) trail that accounts for weight carrying in the front. So what do YOU think Rivendell front bag owner? Have you ever regretted the effect the bag has on your Rivendell's handling? Thanks, Shifty -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/bO1QlWfKRuIJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW http://resumespecialties.com/index.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Noticed anything different about front bag handling
On Nov 18, 2011, at 8:50 PM, Shifty wrote: So, I was just about to plunk down a couple of hundred dollars on a Berthoud front bag at Rene Herse. Mike kindly returned my phone call and immediately asked about the bike I was going to put it on. A Rivendell, I replied (A. Homer Hilsen). He said, do you know that the bag's weight will affect the handling somewhat; some people can't live with it while others aren't bothered by it at all. He said it was because of the trail high or low (I don't recall which) of all Rivendell bikes and that Herse bikes have a (high, low?) trail that accounts for weight carrying in the front. So what do YOU think Rivendell front bag owner? Have you ever regretted the effect the bag has on your Rivendell's handling? This varies not only by a bike's steering geometry but also a lot of other factors. Trying to make it merely an issue of steering geometry over simplifies the issue. For example, wheelbase strongly affects stability with a longer wheelbase bike tending to be more stable. So does the rider's weight distribution as determined by build, weight and the various positioning parameters (saddle height and fore-aft, bar reach and height relative to the saddle, etc.). Lateral frame stiffness (top and down tubes in particular) probably have an effect on how well a frame tolerates a front load. There are probably other factors. The result is that rider A could have a different experience on the very same bike as rider B just due to differences in weight and build, especially if adjustments are made to the fit of the bike. I won't describe mine in detail because my all-Rounder is so different from your AHH that the comparison would be invalid. Hopefully other people will have bagified the same size AHH with the same rack and bag, and can tell you abut their experiences- just bear in mind that your experience might be very different and the only way to find out for sure is try it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
