Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC

2018-09-12 Thread Bruce Erickson 
Hi Marco,

I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika options 
for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and found OB to 
be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system that would be to 
be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an outage, understandably. 
But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up being prohibitive. Add-on rapid 
shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a nice modern high voltage DC system, 
with optimizers and built-in RSD, but when there’s an extended outage, he’ll 
have to hope the sun comes out right after the storm to recharge the batteries, 
or he’ll end up in the dark again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a 
high voltage inverter that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery 
charger, that I’m not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited 
for backup, at least in winter storm scenarios.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







> On Sep 12, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf  wrote:
> 
> Aloha all,
>  
> At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is s 80s and 
> 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie applications with battery storage.
>  
> The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC is drawing 
> to close.  Enough already.  Thank you for your service.
>  
> The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC (Tesla, LG Chem, 
> BYD and others), the better.
>  
> marco
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Peter Giroux
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery 
> backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.
>  
> Ken
>  
>   We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some 
> differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is 
> willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays 
> in to shut off the string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great.
>  
>   If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the 
> batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then 
> not so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup 
> power for days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and 
> were judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to 
> learn how to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had 
> two do this, one learned the other not ).
>  
>   The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray 
> mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. 
>  
> peter giroux
> ASAE
> Atlanta
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: Ken Schaal 
>> To: RE-wrenches  ; Ken Schaal 
>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery 
>> backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.
>>  
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points

2018-09-12 Thread Sindelar Solar 

William and all,

While I too have avoided Trojan in recent years due to multiple reports 
of poor performance on this list, I want to note that in my experience, 
battery distributor experience will vary according to the individual 
branch. My local Albuquerque distributor is very good - prompt to 
respond, remembers my specific preferences (e.g. VRLAs left in their 
awkward boxes to avoid scuffing cases on our rough roads), gave me 
2%10Net30 terms at my request, and even delivers to remote customer 
sites or meeting points near me.


Batteries are the main component that I buy that's outside of solar 
distributor familiarity, and I have had to learn over many years how 
best to work with them. It's a quite different industry.


Allan

On 9/12/2018 12:31 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

I used to buy Trojans. My vendor told me about 3 years ago that Trojan 
had been acquired and the chemistry in the plates had changed. Later 
they denied making that statement.


 I had a set of L16s vastly underperform. Trojan suggest a 
bulk/absorption voltage higher than any other manufacturer, a value 
hard to achieve and maintain in a small off grid system. I replaced 
them with US Battery and system performance improved.


Due to the decline in quality I stopped using Trojan. Due to the 
varying stories, I stopped using Battery Systems. We prefer the 
MK/Deka brand.



William



On Sep 12, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Ray > wrote:


Unfortunately I'm seeing premature failures of the 2 v models even 
more.  You have paralleled cells in each battery, and it can be 
difficult to even identify the failures.  I found the infared camera 
to be invaluable, as you can see the shorted cell clearly in a 
thermal image.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 9/12/18 9:53 AM, Drake wrote:
I agree with the comments that followed on this thread, and would 
also like to add that Trojan L-16 batteries have a high rate of 
premature failure. Possibly the 2 V cells are better, but the 6 V 
cells seem very prone to dying early. Trojan batteries were robust 
in past decades, but seem exceedingly fragile now.


At 08:44 PM 9/11/2018, you wrote:

Hello wrenches,

I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had 
single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years 
old.  They had experienced a battery melt-down.  It looks as 
though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection.


The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be 
precise one was a sealed unit).  The set-points were as follows:

Absorb Voltage was 29.8V
Absorb Time was 6.0 hours
Float Voltage was 27.0V
Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V
End Amps was 0A

These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers.

I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 
minutes.  Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks.  
My clients will kill me if that happened!


Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too 
aggressive.  The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) 
but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end 
amps isn't helping.  However, Im not finding a definitive article 
from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to 
adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity 
measurements or amperage absorption. Â


My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 
2 years.  In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties".  
The client said that the original installer had accused her of not 
using distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her 
symptoms.  I believe the floaties are plate material.


I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these 
batteries if these are appropriate settings for a low energy 
user.  I will attempt to get through to Trojan as well.


Thanks in advance



--



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string?

2018-09-12 Thread Jerry Shafer 
Bill
Stack up the panels to 3 to get voltages less then 150 VOC Never to Exceed
with a FX 60 or 80 charge Controller and sure you can charge a 48 volt
system 2 panels may work but high temps might hamstring your output.
Jerry

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 3:04 PM Bill Battagin  wrote:

> I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2
> SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of
> charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees.  Anybody
> have experience with this or similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  It just
> seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot.  Will it
> be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age?
>
> OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool
> and he can't help me with this configuration.
>
> Bill
>
> On 9/11/2018 1:28 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote:
>
> If it's a 48V system, you might also look at Blue Ion LiFePo batteries and
> eliminate the lead for good. I just installed my first set and consider it
> a game changer.
>
> Allan
> On 9/11/2018 1:44 PM, Steve Romo wrote:
>
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
> What has been your experience with the Outback OPzV battery? I have a
> client who destroyed a set of Solar One HUP batteries (2490 A/HR) by
> forgetting to water them for a year. We are looking to take watering out of
> the equation.
> He does need this much storage (maybe more) My next thought was 3 strings
> of GS SLR 1000  batteries (cycle life is a lot better but at twice the
> cost)
> I appreciate any and all input.
> --
> Steve Romo
> Mountain Power Solutions LLC
> NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124
> Kohler Certified Generator Technician
> Generac Certified Generator Technician
>
> 970-433-6316
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> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 cell*
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string?

2018-09-12 Thread Sindelar Solar 

Bill and all,

To elaborate a bit on Ray's accurate suggestion with a bit of history... 
in the early days the general consensus developed that for general use, 
36 cells (given that one cell produces just shy of 1/2 volt, regardless 
of cell size) was the standard cell count for battery charging. This was 
based on the understanding that a typical Vmp of 17.1-17.6 for a 36 cell 
module was necessary to equalize a 12V FLA battery to ~15.5 VDC in hot 
ambient daytime temperatures after all system losses due to various 
resistance in wire, connections, controllers, etc., were accounted for. 
You'll occasionally see early modules with 35, 33, 32 and even 30 cells, 
tried as "self-regulating" modules - didn't work, as it couldn't account 
for voltage variations due to temperature. Anyway, 36 cells is the 
default standard to charge a 12V battery. Extrapolating from this, 
there's a direct correlation between cell count and voltage in most 
applications: as 36 cells > 12Vnom, 72 cells > 24V and 60 cells > 
20Vnom. Go outside of these rules of thumb only with clear understanding 
of these limitations.


Three 60 cell modules is a nominal 80V; ideal for a 48 Vnom battery 
bank, while still below the 150V limit of many standard controllers in 
record cold temperatures. Three 72 cell modules, or 72 Vnom, is on the 
ragged edge of voltage compliance in cold winter climates.


Allan

On 9/12/2018 10:30 AM, Ray wrote:


A 2nd option: A pair of 72 cell modules should be enough.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 9/12/18 9:21 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:

Hi Bill,

I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell 
modules doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect 
would become worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at 
least 15% above highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the 
strings. With 150V input limit on the Outback controllers, that 
leaves you with only one option, strings of 3, with our low temps.


On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote:


Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this
situation here, where the summer highs are similar, with a few
homeowner/hack installations and no, 60-cell modules will not
finish the charge in hot weather. Strings of three work just
about perfect with modern charge controllers, especially in
winter, as they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits.

Allan

On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote:


I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to
know if 2 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do
an effective job of charging a 48 volt LA battery especially
with temps of 95 degrees.  Anybody have experience with this or
similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  It just seems I'm a little
low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot.  Will it be even
more questionable in 10 years as PVs age?

OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string
sizing tool and he can't help me with this configuration.

Bill

-- 


*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com

Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

2018-09-12 Thread Jerry Shafer 
Ken
AC Coupling is always do-able, might not be the best solution but it can
work well if set up right, you can use DC contactor to shut down strings or
AC to kill the inverter, DC will respond faster. Use an Outback Radian(s)
and Blue Ion Batteries for a sweet easy solution. I've used outback for
many years with great successall the way back to the SMA SB1800
Jerry

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:27 PM Ken Schaal  wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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On Sep 12, 2018 5:27 PM, "Ken Schaal"  wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

2018-09-12 Thread Dan Fink 
Diversion load controller and diversion loads will work every time, no
matter what the equipment.

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342




On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 7:31 PM Wayne Irwin 
wrote:

> Looks like standard AC coupling.
>
> We typically just redo the whole system rather than retro fit. Depending
> on the system size, it's usually not that much more work (racking is
> already up) and the end result is always a regulated charge to the
> batteries.
>
>
> It would be great if someone would come up with a regulated AC coupled
> charge versus an all or nothing approach via phase shifting or relay
> controlled.
>
>
> Wayne Irwin
> President
> License #CVC56695
> State Licensed Solar Contractor
> Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
> wa...@pureenergysolar.com
> http://PureEnergySolar.com
> http://SolarChargingStation.net
> 352 377-6527 Office
> 352 336-3299 Fax
>
>
> The Sun Is Always Shining!
>
> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are
> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use
> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail
> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Ken Schaal 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches; Ken Schaal
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery
> backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

2018-09-12 Thread Wayne Irwin 
Looks like standard AC coupling.

We typically just redo the whole system rather than retro fit. Depending on the 
system size, it's usually not that much more work (racking is already up) and 
the end result is always a regulated charge to the batteries.


It would be great if someone would come up with a regulated AC coupled charge 
versus an all or nothing approach via phase shifting or relay controlled.


Wayne Irwin
President
License #CVC56695
State Licensed Solar Contractor
Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
wa...@pureenergysolar.com
http://PureEnergySolar.com
http://SolarChargingStation.net
352 377-6527 Office
352 336-3299 Fax


The Sun Is Always Shining!

The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not 
the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or 
distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and 
delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.




From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Ken 
Schaal 
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches; Ken Schaal
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup 
to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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[RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC

2018-09-12 Thread Marco Mangelsdorf 
Aloha all,

 

At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is s 80s and 
90s especially when it comes to grid-tie applications with battery storage.

 

The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC is drawing to 
close.  Enough already.  Thank you for your service.

 

The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC (Tesla, LG Chem, 
BYD and others), the better.

 

marco

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Peter Giroux
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery 
backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

 

Ken

 

  We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some differences 
from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is willing to learn how 
to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays in to shut off the 
string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great.

 

  If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the 
batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then not 
so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup power for 
days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and were 
judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how 
to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had two do 
this, one learned the other not ).

 

  The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray 
mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. 

 

peter giroux

ASAE

Atlanta

- Original Message - 

From: Ken Schaal   

To: RE-wrenches   ; Ken Schaal 
  

Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM

Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup 
to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

2018-09-12 Thread Peter Giroux 
Ken

  We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some differences 
from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is willing to learn how 
to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays in to shut off the 
string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great.

  If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the 
batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then not 
so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup power for 
days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and were 
judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how 
to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had two do 
this, one learned the other not ).

  The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray 
mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. 

peter giroux
ASAE
Atlanta
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ken Schaal 
  To: RE-wrenches ; Ken Schaal 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup 
to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

2018-09-12 Thread Ray 
I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked like a standard AC couple 
set up with an Outback Radian.  My understanding is that Outback no 
longer supports AC Coupling, BTW.  I would never use that for an off 
grid system or  for longer outages.  In a very brief explanation,  it 
essentially bypasses any charge controlling to the batteries, and puts 
full Array power into the batteries until a relay (or phase shifting) 
disconnects the array.  No three stage charging, no taper charging, no 
float, no temp compensation.  Its like trying to fill a 5 gal bucket 
with a fire house, or drive a car with a throttle that's either off or 
at full throttle, no in between.  The other issue is that if the 
batteries get low and the inverter shuts off, the system will not 
recharge, and after a couple of weeks the batteries will be sulfated 
beyond recovery.


My guess is that manus that advocated this approach got into trouble 
from end users that fried expensive battery banks during longer 
outages.  I would consider it the equivalent of cheap backup generators: 
a great backup system for folks that don't need it.   There are probably 
thousands of those out there with happy customers and installers, 
because its never actually been used for more than a few hours, and the 
batteries are properly charged from the grid 99.8% of the time.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/12/18 6:11 PM, Ken Schaal wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q


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[RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

2018-09-12 Thread Ken Schaal 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 72 volt charge controller

2018-09-12 Thread Ray 
I'm not sure on that particular device, but SCI equipment usually have 
test points, that you measure with a volt meter: positive to test point, 
negative to the negative battery input.  The readings reflect cell 
voltage, so you need to figure the voltage set points you want, and 
divide by 36 (in your case) to determine the proper set points. Turn the 
little pot, and watch the values change by the thousandth. Just to make 
things interesting, those set points can drift.  Overall, SCI made great 
gear, I have a bunch of it still in service. They kind of got run out by 
Chinese copies of their circuits that sold for significantly less.  
Another option is Midnite Classics can be set to 72 v mode (I believe).


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/12/18 3:18 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Hi all,

I am servicing a system that has a 72 volt charge controller circuit 
board made by solar converters in Canada.  I believe they are no 
longer in the business.  The float and bulk settings are messed up and 
they are set with two variable resistor pots.  Can anyone tell me how 
I can set these???


Thanks,
Kris


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[RE-wrenches] 72 volt charge controller

2018-09-12 Thread Kristopher Schmid 
Hi all,

I am servicing a system that has a 72 volt charge controller circuit board
made by solar converters in Canada.  I believe they are no longer in the
business.  The float and bulk settings are messed up and they are set with
two variable resistor pots.  Can anyone tell me how I can set these???

Thanks,
Kris
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points

2018-09-12 Thread William Miller 
Friends:

I used to buy Trojans. My vendor told me about 3 years ago that Trojan had been 
acquired and the chemistry in the plates had changed. Later they denied making 
that statement.

 I had a set of L16s vastly underperform. Trojan suggest a bulk/absorption 
voltage higher than any other manufacturer, a value hard to achieve and 
maintain in a small off grid system. I replaced them with US Battery and system 
performance improved. 

Due to the decline in quality I stopped using Trojan. Due to the varying 
stories, I stopped using Battery Systems. We prefer the MK/Deka brand. 


William



> On Sep 12, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Ray  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately I'm seeing premature failures of the 2 v models even more.  You 
> have paralleled cells in each battery, and it can be difficult to even 
> identify the failures.  I found the infared camera to be invaluable, as you 
> can see the shorted cell clearly in a thermal image.
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>> On 9/12/18 9:53 AM, Drake wrote:
>> I agree with the comments that followed on this thread, and would also like 
>> to add that Trojan L-16 batteries have a high rate of premature failure. 
>> Possibly the 2 V cells are better, but the 6 V cells seem very prone to 
>> dying early. Trojan batteries were robust in past decades, but seem 
>> exceedingly fragile now. 
>> 
>> At 08:44 PM 9/11/2018, you wrote:
>>> Hello wrenches,
>>> 
>>> I inspected a system that another company had installed.  It had single 
>>> string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old.  They had 
>>> experienced a battery melt-down.  It looks as though the meltdown had 
>>> occurred internally, not from a bad connection.
>>> 
>>> The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one 
>>> was a sealed unit).  The set-points were as follows:
>>> Absorb Voltage was 29.8V
>>> Absorb Time was 6.0 hours
>>> Float Voltage was 27.0V
>>> Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V
>>> End Amps was 0A
>>> 
>>> These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers.
>>> 
>>> I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 
>>> minutes.  Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks.  My 
>>> clients will kill me if that happened!
>>> 
>>> Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too 
>>> aggressive.  The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the 
>>> Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't 
>>> helping.  However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that 
>>> describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb 
>>> Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption.  
>>> 
>>> My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 
>>> years.  In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties".  The client 
>>> said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled 
>>> water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms.  I believe the 
>>> floaties are plate material.
>>> 
>>> I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if 
>>> these are appropriate settings for a low energy user.  I will attempt to 
>>> get through to Trojan as well.
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mac Lewis
>>> 
>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points

2018-09-12 Thread Ray 
Unfortunately I'm seeing premature failures of the 2 v models even 
more.  You have paralleled cells in each battery, and it can be 
difficult to even identify the failures.  I found the infared camera to 
be invaluable, as you can see the shorted cell clearly in a thermal image.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/12/18 9:53 AM, Drake wrote:
I agree with the comments that followed on this thread, and would also 
like to add that Trojan L-16 batteries have a high rate of premature 
failure. Possibly the 2 V cells are better, but the 6 V cells seem 
very prone to dying early. Trojan batteries were robust in past 
decades, but seem exceedingly fragile now.


At 08:44 PM 9/11/2018, you wrote:

Hello wrenches,

I inspected a system that another company had installed.  It had 
single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. 
They had experienced a battery melt-down.  It looks as though the 
meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection.


The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise 
one was a sealed unit).  The set-points were as follows:

Absorb Voltage was 29.8V
Absorb Time was 6.0 hours
Float Voltage was 27.0V
Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V
End Amps was 0A

These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers.

I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 
minutes.  Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks.  My 
clients will kill me if that happened!


Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too 
aggressive.  The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) 
but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end 
amps isn't helping.  However, Im not finding a definitive article 
from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust 
towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity measurements or 
amperage absorption. Â


My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 
years.  In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties".  The 
client said that the original installer had accused her of not using 
distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms.  
I believe the floaties are plate material.


I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries 
if these are appropriate settings for a low energy user.  I will 
attempt to get through to Trojan as well.


Thanks in advance



--



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*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string?

2018-09-12 Thread Ray 

A 2nd option: A pair of 72 cell modules should be enough.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/12/18 9:21 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:

Hi Bill,

I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell 
modules doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect 
would become worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at 
least 15% above highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the 
strings. With 150V input limit on the Outback controllers, that leaves 
you with only one option, strings of 3, with our low temps.


On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote:


Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this situation
here, where the summer highs are similar, with a few
homeowner/hack installations and no, 60-cell modules will not
finish the charge in hot weather. Strings of three work just about
perfect with modern charge controllers, especially in winter, as
they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits.

Allan

On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote:


I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to
know if 2 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an
effective job of charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with
temps of 95 degrees.  Anybody have experience with this or
similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  It just seems I'm a little
low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot.  Will it be even
more questionable in 10 years as PVs age?

OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string
sizing tool and he can't help me with this configuration.

Bill

-- 


*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string?

2018-09-12 Thread David Katz 
Bill,
What is the full charge voltage of your L-ion pack. The one I am using need
56 VDC. Next look at the module data sheet and see % or actual drop in peak
power voltage per degree C. The modules will be about 60 degrees C which is
40 degrees higher that where they are rated.
My guess is that if you need 56 volts from two 60 cell modules it will be a
much lower current than peak current. The modules will be running closer to
open circuit voltage.
If you battery reaches full charge at 48 volts, it should charge fine, but
you will have other bigger problems.
David Katz


On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:04 PM Bill Battagin  wrote:

> I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2
> SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of
> charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees.  Anybody
> have experience with this or similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  It just
> seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot.  Will it
> be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age?
>
> OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool
> and he can't help me with this configuration.
>
> Bill
>
> On 9/11/2018 1:28 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote:
>
> If it's a 48V system, you might also look at Blue Ion LiFePo batteries and
> eliminate the lead for good. I just installed my first set and consider it
> a game changer.
>
> Allan
> On 9/11/2018 1:44 PM, Steve Romo wrote:
>
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
> What has been your experience with the Outback OPzV battery? I have a
> client who destroyed a set of Solar One HUP batteries (2490 A/HR) by
> forgetting to water them for a year. We are looking to take watering out of
> the equation.
> He does need this much storage (maybe more) My next thought was 3 strings
> of GS SLR 1000  batteries (cycle life is a lot better but at twice the
> cost)
> I appreciate any and all input.
> --
> Steve Romo
> Mountain Power Solutions LLC
> NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124
> Kohler Certified Generator Technician
> Generac Certified Generator Technician
>
> 970-433-6316
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>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 cell*
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points

2018-09-12 Thread Drake 
I agree with the comments that followed on this 
thread, and would also like to add that Trojan 
L-16 batteries have a high rate of premature 
failure. Possibly the 2 V cells are better, but 
the 6 V cells seem very prone to dying early. 
Trojan batteries were robust in past decades, but 
seem exceedingly fragile now.


At 08:44 PM 9/11/2018, you wrote:

Hello wrenches,

I inspected a system that another company had 
installed.  It had single string of 12 x Trojan 
L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old.  They had 
experienced a battery melt-down.  It looks as 
though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection.


The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A 
inverters (to be precise one was a sealed 
unit).  The set-points were as follows:

Absorb Voltage was 29.8V
Absorb Time was 6.0 hours
Float Voltage was 27.0V
Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V
End Amps was 0A

These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers.

I was able to jumper the melted battery and get 
her power in 15 minutes.  Her installer had 
left her without power for 2 weeks.  My clients will kill me if that happened!


Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out 
of whack and too aggressive.  The voltage is OK 
(Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the 
Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too 
high and end amps isn't helping.  However, Im 
not finding a definitive article from Trojan 
that describes typical Absorb times or even how 
to adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on 
specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. Â


My diagnosis is that these batteries have been 
cooked over the past 2 years.  In the 
electrolyte, there is noticeable 
"floaties".  The client said that the original 
installer had accused her of not using distilled 
water, but I don't believe that would cause her 
symptoms.  I believe the floaties are plate material.


I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar 
with these batteries if these are appropriate 
settings for a low energy user.  I will attempt 
to get through to Trojan as well.


Thanks in advance



--



Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string?

2018-09-12 Thread Mac Lewis 
Hi Bill,

I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell modules
doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect would become
worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at least 15% above
highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the strings. With 150V input
limit on the Outback controllers, that leaves you with only one option,
strings of 3, with our low temps.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar 
wrote:

> Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this situation here,
> where the summer highs are similar, with a few homeowner/hack installations
> and no, 60-cell modules will not finish the charge in hot weather. Strings
> of three work just about perfect with modern charge controllers, especially
> in winter, as they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits.
>
> Allan
> On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote:
>
> I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2
> SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of
> charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees.  Anybody
> have experience with this or similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  It just
> seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot.  Will it
> be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age?
>
> OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool
> and he can't help me with this configuration.
>
> Bill
> --
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 cell*
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points

2018-09-12 Thread Steve Higgins 
I have to agree that the voltage is pretty aggressive for that system.

With,  absob timers they are typically based on how much current is going
into the battery bank when in Bulk.

The inverter current realistically would be around 130 to 140 amps... at
that rate 3.5 to 5 hours at the most...

Generally I would have started around 4 hours and if the SGs sagged I would
have added time, reduced time if the SGs rose above 1.275

With the array, assuming they have around 6 kw of PV... that'll be around
100 to 120 amps of real current at peak, and to maximize pv production I
may have set this to 4 to 6 hours.

I still like to set the inverter charger .2 to .4 less in voltage than the
solar charge controller.

I have found, Even today most of the inverters and charge controller dont
share true charging info.




On Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:44 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hello wrenches,
>
> I inspected a system that another company had installed.  It had single
> string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old.  They had
> experienced a battery melt-down.  It looks as though the meltdown had
> occurred internally, not from a bad connection.
>
> The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one
> was a sealed unit).  The set-points were as follows:
> Absorb Voltage was 29.8V
> Absorb Time was 6.0 hours
> Float Voltage was 27.0V
> Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V
> End Amps was 0A
>
> These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers.
>
> I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes.
> Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks.  My clients will kill
> me if that happened!
>
> Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too
> aggressive.  The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the
> Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't
> helping.  However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that
> describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb
> Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption.
>
> My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2
> years.  In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties".  The client
> said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled
> water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms.  I believe the
> floaties are plate material.
>
> I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if
> these are appropriate settings for a low energy user.  I will attempt to
> get through to Trojan as well.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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