Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling

[Chris Sparadeo]

Max AC input is 7.6 kW AC for 10 seconds. If you are designing a system to
function off-grid you will want to size your AC input at 5kW as this is the
continuous max charge. Anything above 5kW for longer than 10 seconds and
the Powerwall will throttle back PV via frequency shift.



On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 3:50 PM August Goers  wrote:

> Tesla's guidelines are 7.6 kW inverter AC rating.
>
> August
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:18 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> Schneider uses 1.25 max on an XW for Ac coupling. That would be 1.25 x 6
>> kw or 7.5kw max from the grid inverter when ac coupling.
>>
>> I doubt your numbers would work well with a 5kw internal powerwall. Maybe
>> if you had 2 poweralls? Better get info from Tesla or the installer on
>> Wrenches.  Good Luck!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:24:48 -0400, r...@solartechvt.com wrote:
>>
>> Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does
>> anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall?
>>
>> For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Ray
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM
>> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator
>> charging
>>
>>
>>
>> That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects...
>>
>> Ray Walters
>>
>> Remote Solar
>>
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote:
>>
>> Jay,
>>
>>
>>
>> The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up.  To startup my
>> off grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals
>> and plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet.
>>
>> ___
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> --
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter.

[Brett Bartmasser]

We had the exact same experience. Countless failures.

We do not use them anymore either, but I sure hope they have fixed their
issue.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:18 PM  wrote:

> Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge.
>
>
>
> Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the
> infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again.  First one replaced in
> Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third
> failure on that replacement inverter.
>
>
>
> We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our
> credibility.
>
>
>
> Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging
> that their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but
> opted to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their
> materiel and design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient
> inverters and their manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get
> through this summer…perhaps but not another summer ever like this.
>
>
>
> No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling

[August Goers]

Tesla's guidelines are 7.6 kW inverter AC rating.

August


On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:18 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Schneider uses 1.25 max on an XW for Ac coupling. That would be 1.25 x 6
> kw or 7.5kw max from the grid inverter when ac coupling.
>
> I doubt your numbers would work well with a 5kw internal powerwall. Maybe
> if you had 2 poweralls? Better get info from Tesla or the installer on
> Wrenches.  Good Luck!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:24:48 -0400, r...@solartechvt.com wrote:
>
> Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does
> anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall?
>
> For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall?
>
> Thanks
>
> Rich
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Ray
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator
> charging
>
>
>
> That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects...
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote:
>
> Jay,
>
>
>
> The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up.  To startup my off
> grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and
> plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet.
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm not privy to the specs, but from what I understand the off-grid
allowance is less than the grid-interconnected allowance. I'm guessing
here, but I assume they would limit the PV inverter output to the AC power
rating of the internal inverter which I believe is 5kW. That way the PV
output could never be higher than what the Powerwall could handle.

Jason Szumlanski



On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:18 AM  wrote:

> Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does
> anyone have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall?
>
> For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall?
>
> Thanks
>
> Rich
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Ray
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator
> charging
>
>
>
> That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects...
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote:
>
> Jay,
>
>
>
> The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up.  To startup my off
> grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and
> plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet.
>
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[RE-wrenches] Solar Edge...continuous saga of 181/183 hardware failures...moving on to another inverter.

[scot.arey]

Time has finally come to move on from SolarEdge.

 

Now replacing the THIRD inverter for one customer alone that has the
infamous 181/183 hardware failure error code again.  First one replaced in
Sept 2019. Second failure and RMA July 6th 2020, and now this third failure
on that replacement inverter.

 

We have had 24 total RMAs at quick count and it is eating into our
credibility.

 

Solar Edge provided a briefing to me about two months ago acknowledging that
their manufacturing quality control issues bordered on a recall, but opted
to stay silent and let the installers keep suffering for their materiel and
design issues. I was advised that the batch of deficient inverters and their
manufacture time frame meant I just needed to get through this
summer.perhaps but not another summer ever like this.

 

No more. Au revoir, Solar Edge.

 



 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Schneider uses 1.25 max on an XW for Ac coupling. That would be 1.25 x 6
kw or 7.5kw max from the grid inverter when ac coupling. 

I doubt your
numbers would work well with a 5kw internal powerwall. Maybe if you had 2
poweralls? Better get info from Tesla or the installer on Wrenches. Good
Luck!  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:24:48 -0400,
r...@solartechvt.com wrote:   

Considering the lack of public info
available for the Powerwall, does anyone have any insight into the AC
coupling limits for a single Powerwall? 

For example, can we AC couple
10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall? 

Thanks 

Rich 

FROM: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF Ray
SENT:
Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM
TO:
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla
Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging   

That's going to be long
extension cord for most off grid projects... 
Ray Walters

Remote
Solar

303 505-8760

On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote:   

Jay,


The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up. To startup my off
grid Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and
plugged the other side into a grid-connected outlet.

Links:
--
[1]
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling

[Matt Partymiller]

7.6 kW.

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
r...@solartechvt.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 7:25 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling

Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does anyone 
have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall?
For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall?
Thanks
Rich

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Ray
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging


That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects...

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760
On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote:
Jay,

The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up.  To startup my off grid 
Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and plugged the 
other side into a grid-connected outlet.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall Emergency Stop Button

[Ray]

Has anyone looked at NEC 2020?  Articles 480.7(B) /Storage Batteries/ 
and 706.15 (A)/Energy Storage Systems/ both require an external 
emergency disconnect for the batteries. That "may" be what the AHJ is 
thinking?  Off grid design never got to be so much fun


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/22/20 8:40 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote:

Wrenches,

Does anyone have experience installing an 'Emergency Stop Button' for 
Tesla Powerwall or similar energy storage systems? Not a knife-blade 
disco but a low-voltage 'plunger' style button that shuts down all 
power (even in backup mode) for first responders.
Our AHJ has been forcing us to install gigantic 200A discos between 
our ESS and the main service. Tried explaining that these systems are 
designed to operate when the power goes out so the disco is next to 
useless but... AHJs will be AHJs...


I've attached a pic to give an idea of what I'm looking for. Hoping to 
find a reliable option, with the following characteristics:

*• Must be Lockable on ON/OFF position
• Must have a clear indication of ON/OFF position
• Must be outdoor rated (NEMA 3R or higher)
• Should observe 12V, 0.1 A ratings*

Thanks

--
__

Loren Ortiz
Technical PV Design Specialist - Worker Owner/Board Member

lo...@cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com 


*Main:530-274-3671 ext: 311 Fax:530-274-7518*

**





*Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Tracker manual needed

[William Miller]

Dave:

The trackers appear to work. I am not clear on what  direction to orient them. 
Do you know?

William Miller
www.millersolar.com

> On Jul 22, 2020, at 7:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>  
> 
> I can get you Jeff at Watsons' number but I was told 10 years ago there is 
> nothing left for that unit. You are going to have to fabricate or modify. The 
> linear motor has had 3 later changes and maybe you could get one to work. If 
> it is the electronics, you are done as that would be component level 
> troubleshooting. That is long gone unless you have the knack?
> 
> Probably best to just set it fixed and add more solar. The manual you got for 
> the az 125 is also not made anymore but the motor is the same as the az 250 
> (8" pole) and the electronics can be updated to the new controller.
> 
>  
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 22:04:46 -0700, William Miller  
> wrote:
> 
> Dave/Wrenches:
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks to Allan for sending me the manual for an AZ125.  It is not that 
> model.  I will file the manual for the AZ15 anyway as that was missing from 
> my library and there are two of those on this project as well.
> 
>  
> 
> I apologize if the photo was not great.  I can never remember the file size 
> limitations.  Attached is maybe a better photo.  Hope it goes through. 
> 
>  
> 
> This is a single axis tracker without a manual seasonal tilt adjustment.  The 
> fixed axis is kind of a square yoke assembly.  The fixed axis is level.  So I 
> guess this means either this unit is meant for equatorial installation-- or 
> the tracking motion is for tilt tracking only.  The control is in two boxes: 
> one with the shade pole and one with the electronics, but no external 
> switches.  I've had some long days in the heat lately so maybe I am missing 
> some information needed here.  
> 
> 
> I called the number on the Wattsun website and left a message.  Is there a 
> preferred contact anyone out there knows?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks to everyone for trying to help out.  When you are alone and stuck the 
> Wrenches is a tremendous resource.
> 
>  
> 
> William
> 
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 7:38 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed
> 
>  
> 
> Not enough resolution to id. Best guess is pre AZ125 which is long gone.
> 
> Ask Jeff at Wattsun!  --Dave
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> 
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> 
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> 
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> 
> text 209 813 0060
> 
>  
> 
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:46:57 -0700, William Miller
> 
>  wrote:
> 
> > Friends:
> 
> >
> 
> > If anyone has a manual for this tracker, I would really be grateful to
> 
> > receive it. Pretty sure it's some form of Wattsun tracker.
> 
> >
> 
> > TIA
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?

[William Miller]

Jason:



That is an excellent observation.  I instinctively surmised what was
intended, but I missed that the drawing violates schematic norms in a big
way.  (Or does the drawing indicate that the Powerwall2 is so awesome you
can sell generator power to the grid with the Powerwall2 not even
connected?)



William



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 1:59 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?



Whoever drew that up made it look like the generator is the common pole. I
know what they were getting at, but it's a pretty poor way of depicting it.







On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 6:15 PM la...@starlightsolar.com <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

This, from a Nov 03, 2017 Powerwall 2 document, makes sense. Generator
input in place of utility syncs with PV inverters and Powerwall inverter.


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On Jul 20, 2020, at 1:25 PM, August Goers  wrote:

Tesla released new offgrid design and installation instructions April of
this year. As a Powerwall dealer, we're under NDA not to share
the document, but the Powerwall will now charge from the generator when it
hits a certain SOC threshold if the PV is not running. I'm not sure about
that caveat of not allowing the generator to run while the PV is running.
It seems like there are plenty of times where there is low solar production
and you want to fire up the generator to top off the batteries. They also
have a low state of charge mode when SOC reaches 10%, that the Powerwall
will turn on during the day for short periods of time just to test to see
if the PV system will couple up to charge the battery. This AC-coupling
method of reviving the battery may or not work depending on loads and PV
sizing / production levels.

One limitation to the NMC battery technology is that it doesn't work well
particularly in the cold, so offrige Powerwall batteries should
be installed in the heated envelope of the home.

August


On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
The Powerwall 2 is now supported by Tesla in an off-grid configuration from
what I heard. It is AC coupled. It cannot interact with generators
whatsoever. You can't charge the battery with a generator and you can't AC
couple a generator to it. If you want a generator, you put a transfer
switch on the load side of the gateway device. If the battery dies, the
generator starts. The generator powers loads, but does not recharge the
battery because it becomes isolated via the transfer switch. The big
downside I see with that is there would be a loss of power to the loads
until the generator fires up. I don't see a way around that.

I'm not a Tesla certified installer, but I have seen some of these
batteries out in the wild and that's just the way it is - it's an
integrated unit. I'd call it an "AC Battery," kind of like an AC PV Module.
To answer another point in this thread, if the battery reaches its LBCO
it can only recharge with PV in an off-grid scenario. It reserves battery
capacity to turn on occasionally to see if there is PV input. At least
that's how I understand it to work. I don't know what would happen if the
battery actually reached 0%. Seems risky. I'm not sure how you would "jump
start" it. Publicly available details seem scant on this, but there are a
few system owners talking about it if you dig deep on the Interwebs.

It will be interesting to see what Enphase comes up with. There are
generator inputs on their Ensemble system, but no software support for this
yet. The concept is very similar to Tesla in that there is a gateway
device, essentially a transfer switch with battery controls inside. The
Gateway acts as the AC point of coupling for everything to tie in together.

I'm not sure why you couldn't use a generator to charge the Powerwall
battery the same way you would charge with the grid. However, you would
need a way to disable PV AC coupling when the generator is running. I can
see how Enphase would be able to do this pretty easily. But Tesla is clear
in that they do not allow a generator to interact with the Powerwall in any
way.

Jason Szumlanski





On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 11:43 AM Hilton Dier III 
wrote:
Greetings, Wrenches,

I have an off-grid client who has been reading the buzz about the Tesla
Powerwall 2.0. I have been reading the data sheets and manual for it and it
appears to be AC coupled only. There was talk of a DC input version, but
apparently that fell by the wayside. I try to be agnostic about technology,
and I'd be willing to subcontract a Tesla-approved installer if, in fact,
this was the best solution.

Does anybody have experience using the Powerwall 2.0 in an off grid PV
system? Is it AC coupled only? Can it take generator power
without barfing? What is the lead time on these?

Many Thanks,

Hilton

-- 

Hilton Dier III

Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - AC Coupling

[rich]

Considering the lack of public info available for the Powerwall, does anyone 
have any insight into the AC coupling limits for a single Powerwall?

For example, can we AC couple 10kw Solar Edge to a single Powerwall?

Thanks

Rich

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Ray
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:39 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall 2.0 - Experience?/Generator charging

 

That's going to be long extension cord for most off grid projects...

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/21/20 12:11 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote:

Jay,

 

The Tesla Gateway has a 12v input terminal for boot up.  To startup my off grid 
Powerwall we wired in a 12V power supply to the input terminals and plugged the 
other side into a grid-connected outlet.  

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[RE-wrenches] Fwd: RE: Tracker manual needed

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I can get you Jeff at Watsons' number but I was told 10 years ago there
is nothing left for that unit. You are going to have to fabricate or
modify. The linear motor has had 3 later changes and maybe you could get
one to work. If it is the electronics, you are done as that would be
component level troubleshooting. That is long gone unless you have the
knack? 

Probably best to just set it fixed and add more solar. The manual
you got for the az 125 is also not made anymore but the motor is the same
as the az 250 (8" pole) and the electronics can be updated to the new
controller.  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 22:04:46 -0700, William Miller 
wrote:   

Dave/Wrenches: 

Thanks to Allan for sending me the manual for
an AZ125. It is not that model. I will file the manual for the AZ15 anyway
as that was missing from my library and there are two of those on this
project as well. 

I apologize if the photo was not great. I can never
remember the file size limitations. Attached is maybe a better photo. Hope
it goes through.  

This is a single axis tracker without a manual seasonal
tilt adjustment. The fixed axis is kind of a square yoke assembly. The
fixed axis is level. So I guess this means either this unit is meant for
equatorial installation-- or the tracking motion is for tilt tracking only.
The control is in two boxes: one with the shade pole and one with the
electronics, but no external switches. I've had some long days in the heat
lately so maybe I am missing some information needed here. 

I called the
number on the Wattsun website and left a message. Is there a preferred
contact anyone out there knows? 

Thanks to everyone for trying to help
out. When you are alone and stuck the Wrenches is a tremendous resource.


William 

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [3]] On Behalf Of Dave
Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 7:38 PM
To:
RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tracker manual needed 

Not enough
resolution to id. Best guess is pre AZ125 which is long gone. 

Ask Jeff at
Wattsun! --Dave 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 

"we go where powerlines
don't" 

http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] 

e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [5] 

text 209 813 0060 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:46:57
-0700, William Miller 

 wrote: 

> Friends: 

> 

> If anyone has a manual
for this tracker, I would really be grateful to 

> receive it. Pretty sure
it's some form of Wattsun tracker. 

> 

> TIA


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