[RE-wrenches] Rugged Wind/Solar System For Radio

[Mark Frye via RE-wrenches]

Gentlefolk,

I have a 35 watt radio transmitter that I need to station in the desert for a 
critical application.

Any recommendations for a turnkey provider of a combined solar/wind/battery 
system?

Should I build it myself?

Thanks,

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
530 401 8024
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7 versus IQ8

[Mark Frye via RE-wrenches]

Do you need the additional switch if you use the Enphase battery?

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 11:38 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Jason Szumlanski 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7 versus IQ8

I am trying to figure out why it is a good idea we use the IQ8 in anything 
other than a solar only backup scenario. If there are Enphase batteries 
involved, wouldn't the IQ7 do the same job on the roof? In a straight grid tied 
scenario, again the IQ7 would do the exact same thing. You would not have an 
upgrade path to solar only backup, of course.

I'm just having a hard time understanding the value proposition of the IQ8 in 
most of the situations I encounter. They cost significantly more, and you need 
an additional rapid shutdown switch when using batteries that can be quite a 
pain in some scenarios.

Am I missing something about the switching speed, energy harvest capability, or 
the way they interact with batteries that makes them better?

P.S. I am aware of the very small power output differences by model number and 
I am referring exclusively to 240 volt applications. I understand the 208 volt 
advantages of the IQ8.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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[RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I can 
get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage.


But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle 
charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage?


Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze and 
be damaged anyway?


Thanks,

Mark Frye


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems

[Mark Frye]

I do remember Fat Spaniel. I remember the day they came to our office to 
show us their product. It was an enclosure full of power strips, wall 
warts and wires going everywhere.


Origins.

On 4/10/2021 2:52 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
I have used many of the monitoring platforms, many of which are either 
out or bought out and consolidated. Anybody remember "Fat Spaniel" 
they were one of the first. We had sites with full motion cameras to 
string level monitoring. Now if its up to me I go simple with eguage, 
they have whats needed and have a better chance of being around in a 
few years.

Jerry
NABCEP PV inspector

On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 1:38 PM William Miller > wrote:


Friends:

We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I
am trying to school myself on some of the aspects.  Monitoring is
the subject at hand.

One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online
platform.  There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that
looks like it is simply an analytics service.

Have I correctly categorized the above entities?  Does anyone have
experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as
to the pros and cons of these services?  Anyone have any
documentation on the hardware?

Thanks in advance!

William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer

[Mark Frye]

I wore cougar paws for many years. I still had to protect brand new 
asphalt shingle roofs if they were at all warm.


On 3/9/2021 12:47 PM, August Goers wrote:

Corey and Others Who Have Used Cougar Paws:

Have you found that these special shoes will protect the roof when it 
is hot out? It seems like they are touting the good grip on their 
website, but not necessarily that they protect the roof.


Best,

August



On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:03 PM Corey Shalanski > wrote:


Hello James,

Before I knew any better, I used to lay down non-slip foam drawer
liners—usually available at Lowe's/HD in 10 ft rolls. See attached
photo.
A couple words of caution: They don't hold up quite as well as
spaghetti mat, and they tend to get blown around the roof in high
winds.

Now that I know better... I would put in another vote for Cougar
Paws. They're like having spaghetti mat attached to your feet.
They feature removable/replaceable pads. We ended up buying a pair
for every member of our install crew. I would advise reserving
them for roof work, though. Wear your normal shoes on the drive
to/from the jobsite, and don't wear the Cougar Paws while digging
a ditch or doing other ground-based work.

One other solution that I have always favored are ordinary foam
blocks from couch cushions (cover slip removed). They are
especially helpful/comforting for tasks requiring you to lay down
on the roof - performing wire management under the array and such.
The padding is usually available at craft stores, or you can do
what I did and just scout out old couches that people toss to the
curb.

--
Corey Shalanski
Jah Light Solar
Portland, Jamaica


On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 9:52 PM James Reismiller
mailto:ja...@abundantsolar.com>> wrote:

We’re getting a lot of installations on new roofs these days
and our old trick of using a soaker hose to keep the roof cool
to avoid shingle damage isn’t working anymore. The shingles
get soft and walking on them damages them. I hear the newer
shingles have a polymer that keeps them soft for the first
year or so except in cold weather. Rather than wait for cooler
weather, does anyone have suggestions for protecting the new
roof during installation in warmer weather?

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Mark Frye]

My Rolls manual says:

"It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the 
equalization. This is to

assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."

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Re: [RE-wrenches] FMC in battery rooms

[Mark Frye]

Perhaps we should be applying Article 500 to the installation of 
batteries as well.


On 10/22/2020 10:02 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:

Jay,

I suspect it is because FMC is not vapor tight and could be an 
unintentional path for hydrogen gas, or could allow acid vapors to 
condense on the enclosed wiring. LFMC (aka liquid tight) is allowed in 
battery rooms.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

On 10/22/2020 9:07 AM, jay wrote:

HI All,

348.12 says that FMC cannot be used in battery rooms.

Would anyone like to chime in as to why that would be?

And what is the definition of a battery room:
Is a battery in an enclosure ( box) a battery room, or is the room 
that the battery/box is in the battery room?


Thx

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

[Mark Frye]

The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the 
praises of either SMA or Outback.


I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an 
issue addressed by SMA.


Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in 
exchange for good technical support.


On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several 
of them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for 
generator/grid input.


The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple.

Jason Szumlanski







*

*


On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels > wrote:


we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about
96kW, with a TON of surge capabilities..

Joe Nelson

Project Manager C-46/C-10
Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation

CSL# 868816
www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com


530-273-4422 (Office)

530-217-8385 (Cell)



   



*From:* RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> on behalf of
pgir...@mindspring.com 
mailto:pgir...@mindspring.com>>
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches' mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to
program, does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone
or pure off grid and terrific customer support.

Peter Giroux

ASAE

*From:*RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> *On Behalf Of
*Bryan Norkunas
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches' mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters.

*Bryan *

*PV-Cables*

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*Chris Schaefer
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875
with their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are.

Christopher

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield
mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for
somebody, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues
with the following designs...

The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty
solid, so I'm sticking to using that number as a minimum, at
least during the initial proposal stage. I only know of two
possible equipment options for this size range...

 1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an
80 kW system. Are there any bugs or problems with using
this many inverters on one hub? I know I've read about
issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue,
this is off-grid.
 2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can
allow for up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or
problems with this system?

Are there any other options that anyone would suggest?
Schneider's website says they can only do up to 61 kW, and
Victron can only do up to 60 kW.

I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120
Split-Phase system and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø
system, but this doesn't really matter either way for this job.

Thanks so much,

Kienan

*Maxfield Solar*

*maxfieldso...@hotmail.com* 

*(801) 631-5584 (Cell)***

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Battery

[Mark Frye]

I looked at this and decided on a new set of Rolls flooded lead calcium 
for my grid-tied backup system.


On 8/9/2020 1:10 PM, Ken Schaal wrote:

 Any thoughts on Kilovault that Morningstar is teaming up with?
Time for me to replace my 10 yr old. Deka AGMs.
Not many outages, mostly float. No TOU rates. Net metered.
Thanks
Ken Schaal
CommonWealth Solar

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 4:01 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>> wrote:


My favorite are Discover AES and Fortress Power. They both
communicate open loop with Schaner Electric. The best battery I
have installed as of this date. Always like Surette and US battery
for FLA.

  


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
 text 209 813 0060*

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 12:02:28 -0700, Jerry Shafer
mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet battery
systems, best battery you will install.
Jerry

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

What is the best Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?

Thanks,

Drake
Athens Electric

-- 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops

[Mark Frye]

Did SMA give anymore explanation as to why this set up does not work?

On 7/10/2020 10:50 AM, scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote:


We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, 
the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like 
a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the 
Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 
hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts 
to between 1,300 to 345 watts.


The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during 
backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means 
the max power through the ABU to the “whole house backup” is the 6,000 
watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of 
the SB PV inverter.


SMA tech support just said, “that is normal, the LG Battery is the 
culprit and  does not charge from PV in this setup.”


I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling 
setup…Anybody have any ideas? I’m hoping the Sunny Storage freq 
shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter 
operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] SPAN - Smart home electrical panel....

[Mark Frye]

Built in auto transformer.

On 6/15/2020 8:15 PM, Jim Duncan wrote:
Anyone looking at these, yet? 32 Circuit Breaker Panel with (if looks 
like) individual (relay?) control on each circuit and CT Monitoring? I 
suppose Arc Fault Trip and GFI are built in?
https://solarbuildermag.com/energy-storage/span-raises-10-2-million-in-quest-to-reinvent-the-home-electrical-panel/ 
https://www.span.io/smart-panel-product



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift

[Mark Frye]

Jay,

Do you use an NO or NC solid state relay?

Mark

On 6/13/2020 7:46 AM, Jay wrote:

Hi Mark,

Then the relay method is easy and reliable to use.

Relay trips at whatever battery voltage you don’t want to exceed.

I use a solid state relay with a good heat sink, only switching one leg.

Jay







On Jun 13, 2020, at 7:05 AM, Mark Frye  wrote:



On.

On 6/12/2020 7:27 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Mark

Is this off grid or on?

Jay


On Jun 12, 2020, at 7:09 PM, Mark Frye  wrote:



I see.

What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again 
doubt the value of even using it in my application.


I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same 
controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC 
feed to the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same 
device. On the other hand, it is a very reliable device 
soperhaps sufficient.


On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is 
usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a 
DC coupled array feeding the system.


Brad

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye <mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:


Yes an elite group within an elite group.

So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control.
How are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode?

On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:

Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that
I've AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers.

Brad
AEE Solar

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:

Hello,

I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on
the roof. Peak
power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W.

I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded
Lead Calcium
battery bank.

Cheers

On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote:
> G'Day Mark,
>
> Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC
couple with. I
> apologize if you already called it out in the thread.
>
> Christopher
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift

[Mark Frye]

On.

On 6/12/2020 7:27 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Mark

Is this off grid or on?

Jay


On Jun 12, 2020, at 7:09 PM, Mark Frye  wrote:



I see.

What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again 
doubt the value of even using it in my application.


I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same 
controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC 
feed to the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same 
device. On the other hand, it is a very reliable device soperhaps 
sufficient.


On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is 
usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a 
DC coupled array feeding the system.


Brad

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye <mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:


Yes an elite group within an elite group.

So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How
are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode?

On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:

Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've
AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers.

Brad
AEE Solar

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:

Hello,

I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the
roof. Peak
power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W.

I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead
Calcium
battery bank.

Cheers

On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote:
> G'Day Mark,
>
> Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple
with. I
> apologize if you already called it out in the thread.
>
> Christopher
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift

[Mark Frye]

I see.

What you say about the frequency shift being slow makes me again doubt 
the value of even using it in my application.


I have a controller that can regulate the AC dump load. That same 
controller has a high limit switch which I could use to cut the AC feed 
to the GT inverters. But then both functions are in the same device. On 
the other hand, it is a very reliable device soperhaps sufficient.


On 6/12/2020 6:37 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
I have a relay on the XW+ Aux and also frequency shift which is 
usually slower, so the relay usually cuts out first. I also have a DC 
coupled array feeding the system.


Brad

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 4:34 PM Mark Frye <mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:


Yes an elite group within an elite group.

So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How
are you implementing charge control in stand alone mode?

On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:

Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've
AC coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers.

Brad
AEE Solar

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:

Hello,

I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the
roof. Peak
power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W.

I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead
Calcium
battery bank.

Cheers

On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote:
> G'Day Mark,
>
> Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple
with. I
> apologize if you already called it out in the thread.
>
> Christopher
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift

[Mark Frye]

Yes an elite group within an elite group.

So the SB240 does not have frequency shift /wattage control. How are you 
implementing charge control in stand alone mode?


On 6/12/2020 4:28 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
Wow! Someone else with SMA SB240's, I have 12 of them that I've AC 
coupled to an XW+5548. They are very solid performers.


Brad
AEE Solar

On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 3:39 PM Mark Frye <mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:


Hello,

I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof.
Peak
power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W.

I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium
battery bank.

Cheers

On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote:
> G'Day Mark,
>
> Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I
> apologize if you already called it out in the thread.
>
> Christopher
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift

[Mark Frye]

Hello,

I have a small array of 8 - SMA SB240 microinverters on the roof. Peak 
power out of the array has never exceeded 1800 W.


I am adding a Magnum MS-PAE 4448 with a 315 AH flooded Lead Calcium 
battery bank.


Cheers

On 6/12/2020 12:31 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote:

G'Day Mark,

Which grid tied inverter are you attempting to AC couple with. I 
apologize if you already called it out in the thread.


Christopher

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift

[Mark Frye]

Thanks Jay,

I talked again with Magnum.

I have the latest Rev 6.1 MS-PAE 4448 so the exact implementation has 
changed from that described in AN002, 5/10. The current Rev. has changes 
designed to improve interaction with the GT inverters. I didn't really 
get to the bottom of that. But the critical aspect of this remains 
unchanged:


- the Magnum will have shifted the frequency  by 0.5 Hz 
 when the DC voltage 
rises to Absorb + 4V.


This makes more sense than the 6V I had in my notes (which may have 
meant 6V above Float.)


With all this in mind, I think I will plan on using this feature as a 
backup to an AC dump load controller set to maintain Float voltage.



On 6/12/2020 7:12 AM, Jay wrote:

Hi Mark

I found this which might be of help.

https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagArchive/AN-0002-AC-Coupling-Rev-5-10.pdf

Jay
Peltz power.


On Jun 12, 2020, at 6:59 AM, Mark Frye  wrote:

Looking for confirmation from Wrenches who know Magnum inverters:

- MS-PAE

-ME-RC

- Frequency shift enabled (battery type "Custom")

- AC coupled PV inverters w/o frequency shift capability

Function:

At Absorb voltage frequency shift is zero, at Absorb voltage + 6 V, 
shift is 0.5 Hz  (in 0.3 volt increments)


This is from my notes from a tech support call, but I am wondering if 
I have it mixed up. Protecting at 6 volts above the Absorb seems a 
bit high.


Thanks,

Mark


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[RE-wrenches] Magnum Frequency Shift

[Mark Frye]

Looking for confirmation from Wrenches who know Magnum inverters:

- MS-PAE

-ME-RC

- Frequency shift enabled (battery type "Custom")

- AC coupled PV inverters w/o frequency shift capability

Function:

At Absorb voltage frequency shift is zero, at Absorb voltage + 6 V, 
shift is 0.5 Hz  (in 0.3 volt increments)


This is from my notes from a tech support call, but I am wondering if I 
have it mixed up. Protecting at 6 volts above the Absorb seems a bit high.


Thanks,

Mark


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[RE-wrenches] Goal of charge regulation FLA vs LiFePo

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

A few questions:

When charging a FLA battery, even though we use a three stage charging 
regime controlling voltage/current, is it not true that the real goal is 
to avoid excess temperature rise inside the cell generally? Do we worry 
that excess current will cause localized excess heating with the cell 
and subsequent mechanical breakdown? Do we worry that excess voltage 
will cause some kind of electro-chemical breakdown?


If control of excess temperature rise is not the goal of charge 
regulation, what is the goal?


Having defined the goal for FLA how is it the same or different for a 
LiFePo?


I am pretty sure it is much easier to damage a Li with bad charging, but 
why?


Thanks,

Mark

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Re: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery?

[Mark Frye]

Thanks Larry,

I am familiar with GBS cells. Would you scold me too badly if I told you 
my thought that with modest discharge rates and on the charge side, with 
cell balancers installed, and limiting the charge current to 15A, one 
doesn't really need the BMS for the 60AH pack?


On 5/26/2020 10:47 AM, la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:

Hi Mark,

One of the many benefits of Li-ion is the ability to provide much 
higher continuous current than any comparable size LA battery.


You don’t need more than 2kWh (40Ah) and want to know the smallest 
battery you can use. To directly answer your question: A 60AH Elite 
Power Solutions (GBS cells) battery bank @ 48V has about 3 kWh of 
energy storage. This is a tiny battery bank, just 20”L x 11”W and 
weighs only 80 pounds. However, it can provide a whopping 9kW (3C) 
continuous output and up to 31kW momentarily! Thats much more than you 
will likely ever use.


Though hard to imagine, this will work with your inverter. We have 
built several 3kW inverter systems @ 12V with a single 100AH battery 
for starting heavy loads like air compressors and air conditioners. No 
problem. Whether this is the “best practice” will require more 
discussion. Let me know if you need more detailed help as we have many 
years experience with Li-ion battery systems.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

From: Mark Frye mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery?

In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out meeting
for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was
the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He
said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to "weight" at
least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer.

Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV,
what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?

My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity.

What is the latest best practice on this?

Thanks.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery?

[Mark Frye]

   On Sun, May 24, 2020, 10:27 AM Jay
mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

One question I have for those more versed than
me in lithium is, I'm under the impression that
having a lithium battery in float for years
isn't good for it. Or at the very least it has
to be cycled with some regularity.
I'd like to hear data on that
Thx
Jay
Peltz power.

On May 23, 2020, at 10:08 PM, Ray
mailto:r...@solarray.com>>
wrote:

I suggest starting with a very simple look
at the continuous output rating of the
battery and match that to the inverter
continuous rating. This ends up with quite a
bit more battery than you might think at
first. However, if the customer paid the big
bucks for a battery backup system, they
should at least get enough battery to
operate the inverter at its rated power.
Anything less, I would consider poor design.
The same goes for lead acid batteries, they
just don't work well, even on grid, when the
battery is undersized. Even lead acid
batteries have maximum current output
ratings that should at least be matched to
the inverter rating.

If you WERE going to under size the battery,
then you should keep it safe by reducing the
size of the inverter battery breaker as
well.   I know this "micro battery for GTB"
is becoming a trend, but it doesn't mean its
right.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/23/20 5:48 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:

Greetings, All~ Mark Frye had asked: 
"...with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC
coupled with 2000w of PV, what is the
smallest Li battery I would want for
stable operation?"
Mick's reply: In the lithium arena, one
often finds the ratings in
kilowatt-hours rather than in amp-hours.
This is an easy conversion for us energy
nerds to make, so below I'm mainly using
watts & watt-hours with occasional
conversions to amp-hours.
I suggest that you start with the spec
sheet (of whichever brand lithium
battery is on your radar), & see what
the manufacturer says about "allowable
rate of recharge". You may find that C/2
is an acceptable rate with several
manufacturers, Mark--much faster than
what we're accustomed to with typical
lead-acid batteries. Let's assume:
* ...that your AC coupled PV array
crests around 1800 watts to the battery
when there are no loads
* ...that the battery is below 100%
state of charge, and
* ...that the solar conditions are optimal.
Let's further assume that
those conditions represent your
battery's highest energy rate in either
direction.
1800w X two hours = 3,600 watt-hours
dividing by 48v nominal = 75 amp-hours
in the above hypothetical situation.
++
The rate at which a battery can receive
energy is (usually) also the rate at
which it can comfortably deplete, so
let's briefly look at the flip side:
Assuming the battery mfr. wants the
watt-hours to be no less than two times
the maximum wattage, a 3600 watt-hour
  

Re: [RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating

[Mark Frye]

OK, so with a Radian or XW what is the per-phase % of total rated power? 
50%?


On 5/25/2020 2:16 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

 From what I have seen most folks get into trouble with split phase because
they are using too small of an inverter. For a home or larger I only use
the big radians or an XW's.

  Some do have problems because they are refitting an old 120vac power
system to split phase and the load panel was never balanced at all.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 25 May 2020 14:08:03 -0700, Mark Frye 
wrote:

Folks,

Back again into the way back machine, I once installed a system with
multiply FX's stacked in a split-phase configuration. At the advice of
the engineer, I also installed an auto-transformer across the lines to
help balance the per-phase loads.

With the current split-phase inverters (Outback, Schneider, Magnum) what
is the per-phase rating? Do any or all of them deliver 100% output
rating to a single phase? If not, what is the max percentage output is
allowed on a single phase? Do folks have to spend alot of time making
sure there split-phase loads are balanced?

Thanks,

Mark

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[RE-wrenches] Split Phase Load Rating

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Back again into the way back machine, I once installed a system with 
multiply FX's stacked in a split-phase configuration. At the advice of 
the engineer, I also installed an auto-transformer across the lines to 
help balance the per-phase loads.


With the current split-phase inverters (Outback, Schneider, Magnum) what 
is the per-phase rating? Do any or all of them deliver 100% output 
rating to a single phase? If not, what is the max percentage output is 
allowed on a single phase? Do folks have to spend alot of time making 
sure there split-phase loads are balanced?


Thanks,

Mark

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Re: [RE-wrenches] How much Li battery?

[Mark Frye]

Humm, so maybe a 3kwhr would work for my situation.

On 5/23/2020 10:55 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Mark
The smallest battery I have used is the Blue Planet 8 kWhr. its a half 
stack in there cabinet with a 10.8 k PS-3 inverter system with about 6 
k on the roof, 8 K is not much but this particular customer only uses 
this for some low demand power consumption that must operate. It is 
less expensive to go with 16 kWhrs vs 8 at a cost per watt also

Jerry

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 10:37 AM Mark Frye <mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:


In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out
meeting
for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was
the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He
said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to
"weight" at
least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer.

Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w
of PV,
what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?

My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity.

What is the latest best practice on this?

Thanks.


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[RE-wrenches] How much Li battery?

[Mark Frye]

In the way back machine I remember being at a product roll out meeting 
for the brand new Outback FX inverter. I asked the engineer, what was 
the smallest battery bank that could be connected to the inverter. He 
said on the fly that probably you would want the battery to "weight" at 
least as much as the inverter. I thought that was a great answer.


Fast forward, with a 4000w Outback Radian, AC coupled with 2000w of PV, 
what is the smallest Li battery I would want for stable operation?


My loads don't really need more than 40ah of capacity.

What is the latest best practice on this?

Thanks.


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[RE-wrenches] OK, so what iwould happen if I do this...

[Mark Frye]

I have 2kw of grid tied PV on my house.

Suppose I:

- Open the main breaker to disconnect from the grid

- I open the PV breaker

- I connect a small good quality inverter like an Exeltech XP 500 to one 
of the phases of the service (120 VAC)


- I put a small battery pack, 100 AH at 24 VDC on the inverter

OK so far, I could run some small loads for a relatively short period of 
time before the batteries get low


-I have a PLC with an AD input and DA output. On the input I measure the 
battery voltage, on the output I control a SCR. The SCR controls a 2kw 
immersion heater sitting in a big bucket of water. The PLC has a scan 
time of 2 mS and I program it to increase the duty cycle of the SCR as 
voltage of the battery rises above 24 VDC.


OK so far nothing has really changed from above.

- I close the PV breaker, the GT inverters see the battery inverter, 
sync and connect after five minutes.


Voila, I can run house loads from 0 to 2kw with my existing GT PV with 
the balance of energy dumped as needed to the immersion heater.


Right?

Mark Frye

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Watch Out For Third party Tesla Modules - no warranty

[Mark Frye]

I spoke with the vendor who sent me the email and she confirmed that the 
modules are not warranted by Panasonic, but rather by Tesla with 
slightly different terms, so all is well, buyer beware.


On 1/10/2020 6:46 AM, Mark Frye wrote:

I received a sales email for some of these recently.



https://www.pv-tech.org/news/panasonic-warns-us-solar-installers-of-tesla-designated-panels-on-the-marke 



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[RE-wrenches] Watch Out For Third party Tesla Modules - no warranty

[Mark Frye]

I received a sales email for some of these recently.



https://www.pv-tech.org/news/panasonic-warns-us-solar-installers-of-tesla-designated-panels-on-the-marke

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Re: [RE-wrenches] non-sensor based tracker controller

[Mark Frye]

Most every industrial grade tracker run off of location and time, 
calculates the required array angle. The core code for this is open 
source out of NREL (your tax dollars at work). Still over my pay grade 
to actually integrate this into a home made tracker.


On 12/2/2019 6:28 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:

Hi Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can 
work with a variety of tracker motors?


We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller 
that has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks.  Its a 
tougher location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that 
confuse the tracker I guess.


It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun 
position equation instead of sensors that can be confused.


Thanks for your input

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

Thanks Brad,

I think I am finally getting it.

When on-grid, the grid is providing wave form and transistors in BB are 
available to provide voltage regulation.


When off-grid, the transistors in the BB are required to provided wave 
form and not available to provide regulation.



On 11/4/2019 6:10 AM, Bradley Bassett wrote:

Mark,

The difference is that when AC coupled the power is coming backwards 
into the AC out. When it's charging from the grid or generator it is 
charging from the AC inputs. The inverter can control the charge from 
the inputs but not what is coming in reverse into the output.


Brad

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 6:10 PM Mark Frye <mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:


OK Jay that makes sense.

This must mean that there is a significant difference in the
function of
the BB inverter when it is in off-grid mode vs when it is in grid
connected mode.

On 11/3/2019 5:45 PM, jay wrote:
> No, older non frequency shift BB inverters don’t communicate
that way.
>
> They have no communication with a Rule 21 GT inverter.
>
> The BB, it will just keep charging and charging with any extra
energy coming from the GT inverter.  The BB  has no regulation,
there is no absorb or float, just charge.
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
    >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Mark Frye mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:
>>
>> OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm
that is true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW
Frequency Shifting AC Coupling".
>>
>> On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>>> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency
because it is
>>> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This
is how AC
>>> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming
gets corrupted
>>> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will
stop. Or if
>>> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or
there is a
>>> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that
I have not
>>> thought of.
>>>
>>> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget
>>> fastHappy Hour!
>>>
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
>>> text 209 813 0060
>>>
>>> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Folks,
>>>>
>>>> Please allow me to ask another question:
>>>>
>>>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no
connection to the
>>>> grid.
>>>>
>>>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The
battery is in
>>>> float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well.
>>>>
>>>> Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT
inverters.
>>>>
>>>> The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to
understand
>>>> what that bad thing is.
>>>>
>>>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will
continue to
>>>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries
in an
>>>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries
blow up? Is
>>>> that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT?
>>>>
>>>> With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

OK Jay that makes sense.

This must mean that there is a significant difference in the function of 
the BB inverter when it is in off-grid mode vs when it is in grid 
connected mode.


On 11/3/2019 5:45 PM, jay wrote:

No, older non frequency shift BB inverters don’t communicate that way.

They have no communication with a Rule 21 GT inverter.

The BB, it will just keep charging and charging with any extra energy coming 
from the GT inverter.  The BB  has no regulation, there is no absorb or float, 
just charge.

jay

peltz power


On Nov 3, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Mark Frye  wrote:

OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is true even if the 
BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting AC Coupling".

On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is
full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC
coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets corrupted
by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if
this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a
network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have not
thought of.

Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget
fastHappy Hour!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye 
wrote:

Folks,

Please allow me to ask another question:

Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the
grid.

I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in
float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well.

Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters.

The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand
what that bad thing is.

I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to
produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an
unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is
that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT?

With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding.

Mark

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Re: [RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

OK, great, I am really getting the message, but I would like to 
understand, if for some reason the BB does not raise the frequency or 
the GT does not response, or the BB fails to stop on HBCO the ultimate 
consequence is unregulated charging of the battery until failure?


On 11/3/2019 4:56 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:
Indeed, as long as nothing goes wrong with the BB inverters ability to 
shift the freq, and the GT's ability to follow the UL 1741 
requirements, nothing bad should happen. However it is best practice 
to have a secondary method in place to ensure the GT drops out of the 
picture. That most commonly is ensured with an interposing relay 
controlled by the BB inverters knowledge of the battery charge, or a 
secondary device that performs the measurement.


-Glenn
Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.

-- Original message--
*From: *Mark Frye
*Date: *Sun, Nov 3, 2019 7:36 PM
*To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>;

*Cc: *
*Subject:*[RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

Happy Hour, yes it is that time here in our home.

Thanks again, but I guess I don't see that there is a catastrophic
result here, the BB raises the frequency and trips the GT. So what, as
long as the BB returns to a standby.

On 11/3/2019 4:31 PM, Mark Frye wrote:
> OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is 
> true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting 
> AC Coupling".

>
> On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is
>> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power.
  This is how AC
>> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets 
>> corrupted

>> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if
>> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a
>> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have 
>> not

>> thought of.
>>
>> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget
>> fastHappy Hour!
>>
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mailoffgridso...@sti.net  
>> text 209 813 0060  
>>
>> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye >> wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> Please allow me to ask another question: 
>>> >>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no 
connection to the >>> grid. >>> >>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and 
producing 2000w. The battery is in >>> float, and I have 2000w of load 
connected. All is well. >>> >>> Now suppose I remove the loads without 
disconnecting the GT inverters. >>> >>> The word is that something bad 
happens now. I would like to understand >>> what that bad thing is. 
>>> >>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will 
continue to >>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the 
batteries in an >>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the 
batteries blow up? Is >>> that the consequence of not disconnecting 
the GT? >>> >>> With many thanks in advance for your help in 
understanding. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> 
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[RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

Happy Hour, yes it is that time here in our home.

Thanks again, but I guess I don't see that there is a catastrophic 
result here, the BB raises the frequency and trips the GT. So what, as 
long as the BB returns to a standby.


On 11/3/2019 4:31 PM, Mark Frye wrote:
OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is 
true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting 
AC Coupling".


On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is
full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC
coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets 
corrupted

by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if
this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a
network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have 
not

thought of.

Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget
fastHappy Hour!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye 
wrote:

Folks,

Please allow me to ask another question:

Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the
grid.

I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in
float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well.

Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters.

The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand
what that bad thing is.

I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to
produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an
unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is
that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT?

With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding.

Mark

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is 
true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting 
AC Coupling".


On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is
full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC
coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets corrupted
by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if
this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a
network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have not
thought of.

Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget
fastHappy Hour!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye 
wrote:

Folks,

Please allow me to ask another question:

Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the
grid.

I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in
float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well.

Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters.

The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand
what that bad thing is.

I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to
produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an
unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is
that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT?

With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding.

Mark

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Please allow me to ask another question:

Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the 
grid.


I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in 
float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well.


Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters.

The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand 
what that bad thing is.


I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to 
produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an 
unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is 
that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT?


With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding.

Mark

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

Folks,


I do not want to be obdurate here, perhaps just a slow learner.


I have to ask the question though:


In the case of a BB inverter connected to the grid only, with no GT 
inverters, you don't have to shutdown the whole inverter when the 
battery is full because you are not required to endlessly push available 
energy into the batteries. You can turn off the switch that connects the 
charger to the battery.



Mark


On 11/3/2019 11:13 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote:

Mark,

Sorry, my post must not have been perfectly clear... I have total 
confidence in how the BB inverters work, and no, the GT inverter there 
will be no measurable deduction in impedance, even if you have a very 
sensitive sensor and there are no other loads on the system. It just 
doesn't work that way. It is impossible for the inverter to reduce the 
current into the batteries when it's being fed into the inverter 
through its output. And that's true no matter what inverter we're 
talking about. It is impossible for it to increase it's impedance that 
way.


The only thing I would say is that if you were an engineer at an 
inverter manufacturer, it would be possible for you to design an 
inverter that could change it's output voltage based on the battery 
voltage, but nobody does that. That's why they change the output 
frequency. I think my last email layed out the 4 possible options, and 
I am confident that there is no other option that would work at all.


These were my four options...

 1. Use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling
 2. Run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can
use for controlling them based on the battery voltage
 3. Experiment with something custom and just expect a high
probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes)
 1. You might be able to find a device that would read the battery
voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then
have another device at the GT inverters that decodes that
information and then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no
idea how to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical
realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC?
 4. Or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut
out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the
power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for
this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very
adventuresome.




Sorry for the bad news, but unless you have frequency shifting, it's 
totally impossible to control the GT inverter using the AC line.


Kienan


*Maxfield Solar*
*maxfieldso...@hotmail.com* <mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
*
**(801) 631-5584 (Cell)**
*

*From:* RE-wrenches  on 
behalf of Mark Frye 

*Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:58 AM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 


*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with uncertainty 
about how any given BB inverter might work.



I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of sending 
power to the battery and if it the battery is at it's set point then 
the duty cycle on the transistors in the rectifier go down - zero. At 
that point the impedance of the AC line would appear to go up. In 
response the GT inverters would increase there output voltage in an 
attempt to over come the higher impedance.



The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response delay 
setting. If I am running in offgrid mode, the main worry is voltage 
sag due to load. So generally, the inverter would be running at or 
below AC voltage set point. There may be spikes above voltage set 
point when a load is disconnected, but I could filter that out with 
the delay on the sensor.



Still, this is why I am asking.


Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand of BB 
inverters in off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters?



Mark


On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote:

Mark,

I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any 
case, your proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be 
some equipment that would work that way, but not anything I'm aware 
of. Let me tell you what will happen in a normal system, assuming 
that the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control 
mechanism (like frequency shifting)


The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT 
inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start 
overcharging, the BB inverter will not raise the AC voltage in 
response. What will happen instead is that there will be no 
measurable difference in the AC voltage, but the DC voltage will 
continue to rise until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high 
battery cut out voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your 
entire A

Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with uncertainty about 
how any given BB inverter might work.



I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of sending power 
to the battery and if it the battery is at it's set point then the duty 
cycle on the transistors in the rectifier go down - zero. At that point 
the impedance of the AC line would appear to go up. In response the GT 
inverters would increase there output voltage in an attempt to over come 
the higher impedance.



The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response delay 
setting. If I am running in offgrid mode, the main worry is voltage sag 
due to load. So generally, the inverter would be running at or below AC 
voltage set point. There may be spikes above voltage set point when a 
load is disconnected, but I could filter that out with the delay on the 
sensor.



Still, this is why I am asking.


Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand of BB 
inverters in off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters?



Mark


On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote:

Mark,

I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any 
case, your proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be 
some equipment that would work that way, but not anything I'm aware 
of. Let me tell you what will happen in a normal system, assuming that 
the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control mechanism 
(like frequency shifting)


The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT 
inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start 
overcharging, the BB inverter will not raise the AC voltage in 
response. What will happen instead is that there will be no measurable 
difference in the AC voltage, but the DC voltage will continue to rise 
until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high battery cut out 
voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your entire AC line 
will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT inverter, and as the 
battery voltage falls back into an acceptable range, the BB inverter 
may or may not automatically turn back on. If it does automatically 
turn back on, then the GT inverter will wait for 5 minutes and then 
they'll start back-feeding until the battery voltage goes above the 
overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system shuts off again. So this is 
what is normally happening if you hear about an AC coupling system 
that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so during the day... And yes, I 
have seen a system where the homeowner was told that this was normal, 
and it's just how the system was supposed to work..


So if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and that AC 
coupling mode is turned on, then it will change the characteristics of 
the AC line in order to notify the GT inverter to turn off, or to 
decrease its output. The only way that I've ever heard about any 
manufacturers implementing this is through frequency shifting. Now it 
would be perfectly possible to do it through voltage shifting (or 
voltage raising) and I've talked to some engineers who said that on a 
technological level, it wouldn't be any harder for a manufacturer to 
do voltage shifting than frequency shifting, but no manufacturer has 
actually pursued that. So basically, your only options are


 1. use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling
 2. run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can
use for controlling them based on the battery voltage
 3. experiment with something custom and just expect a high
probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes)
 1. You might be able to find a device that would read the battery
voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then
have another device at the GT inverters that decodes that
information and then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no
idea how to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical
realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC?
 4. or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut
out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the
power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for
this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very
adventuresome.

Essentially the bottom line is that monitoring the AC line will never 
work unless the BB inverter has a built-in AC coupling control 
mechanism, then you'll be monitoring for the frequency rather than the 
voltage.


Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say.
Kienan

*Maxfield Solar*
*maxfieldso...@hotmail.com* <mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
*
**(801) 631-5584 (Cell)**
*

*From:* RE-wrenches  on 
behalf of Mark Frye 

*Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 


*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Coup

Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

OK Brian,

So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an 
acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters.


With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters 
off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before 
coming back on line after tipping off.



Mark

On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:

With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter integrated” 
control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also control in 
regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, this is 
definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the  
AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise 
and trip the BB offline.

AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked off, 
so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay or 
other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could 
essentially chatter off and on and off and...

Brian


On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye  wrote:

Hi William,

Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here.

In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub 
panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, 
so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the 
two.

In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt 
inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, 
so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions 
for that.

Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal?

Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being:

- With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, 
raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point

- Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops 
putting energy into the battery

- With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises

Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the 
battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but 
rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable?

I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from 
Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters 
before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults.

Mark



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

Hi William,

Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here.

In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a 
couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The 
distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to 
run a cable between the two.


In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt 
inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the 
battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are 
simple solutions for that.


Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal?

Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that 
being:


- With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the 
battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage 
set point


- Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger 
stops putting energy into the battery


- With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises

Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters 
when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being 
overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable?


I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade 
devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will 
disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB 
inverter faults.


Mark



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

Glenn,

OK, while I would prefer to not get into compiling code onto an ARM, my 
main question would be, how do you get the voltage value into the Arduino?


Rectify the AC voltage and then voltage divide down to the chip input pin?

Mark

On 11/2/2019 10:14 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:

Sounds like a job for an Arduino...

-Glenn
Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.

-- Original message--
*From: *Mark Frye
*Date: *Sat, Nov 2, 2019 1:05 PM
*To: *re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>;

*Cc: *
*Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

Folks,

Can anyone share a parts list for setting up a AC couple disconnect?

I want to couple a
  non-frequency response grid-tied inverter to a
battery based stand-alone inverter.

I have only 8 amps output from the GT inverters, so can use 10A relay
contacts.

I want a device to monitor AC voltage and latch a coil on when it raises
above a set point (250VAC). I then want a timer to release the latch
after about 1 hour.

Sound about right? Are any vendors selling such a device? How about a
parts list from Digikey?

Thanks,

Mark Frye

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[RE-wrenches] Parts List : Reprise

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

I guess what I am asking is does anyone know of a cheaper way of 
implementing than:


Digikey, Relay Monitor Voltage, 646-1145-ND, $117 each, Qty. 1

Digikey, On-Delay Timer, RTE-P1AF20, $49 each, Qty. 1

Digikey, Relay Socket, 27E891, $7 each, Qty. 2

Total = ~ $200

Thanks,

Mark Frye


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[RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Can anyone share a parts list for setting up a AC couple disconnect?

I want to couple a non-frequency response grid-tied inverter to a 
battery based stand-alone inverter.


I have only 8 amps output from the GT inverters, so can use 10A relay 
contacts.


I want a device to monitor AC voltage and latch a coil on when it raises 
above a set point (250VAC). I then want a timer to release the latch 
after about 1 hour.


Sound about right? Are any vendors selling such a device? How about a 
parts list from Digikey?


Thanks,

Mark Frye

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[RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: 
recycling Li batteries?


I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in 
particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle 
product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something 
like 95% of the material in Pb batteries.


Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny 
new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on 
impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within 
the frame work of a sustainable future?


This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li 
batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking 
around this is?


Thanks,

Mark Frye


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[RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors

[Mark Frye]

Speaking of Tesla...

What with Walmart and (Amazon?) suing them for PV fires...

Can anyone here give a brief run down on the whole Amphenol UTX (?) 
defective or cross-mated connector story?


Thanks,

Mark Frye


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Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Thread points up the ever present weakness of the Code to deal with PV. 
In terms of specifying OCP, the Code completely fails to parse out 
overload protection from short circuit protection and always looks at it 
from the point of view of the grid. To Blake's credit he did bring in 
the issue of current interrupt capacity.


Point is that a 40A breaker between the gird and (grid-tied) inverter 
will never see a condition where the the inverter is drawing any current 
of any significant magnitude for any significant period of time. The 
only time it will draw current from the grid is if some element within 
it is in short-circuit mode. In this case it really doesn't matter what 
the rating of the breaker is, 30 A, 40 A, of 100 A, it is going to trip 
very quickly when it sees a short circuit condition. All the over-sizing 
stuff in the code really only addresses high load/over load conditions 
which are not relevant to the situation we are talking about.


Another way of saying this, which would be more sensible is: yes, 
evaluate the circuit in both directions, but only consider the load to 
be continuous in the direction from the inverter to the grid.


Mark

On 8/22/2019 2:29 PM, William Miller wrote:


Blake:

Thank you for the reference from Schneider.

I think the point being missed here is that the ampacity rating of 
each device needs to be evaluated in light of the power flow in either 
direction.  If a 40 Amp breaker is supplied between the utility and 
the disconnect in question, in case of a fault, it could supply more 
current from the grid than a 30 Amp disconnect is rated to handle.   
This is particularly relevant considering the grid is not nearly as 
much a current limited source as an inverter.


Sincerely,

William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

Quote of the month:  “As they age, batteries transition from energy

storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller

*From:*Blake Gleason [mailto:bl...@sunlightandpower.com 
]

*Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 12:38 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com ; 
RE-wrenches

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker

Hi William,

Yes, the bulletin I attached was just an example of a 100% rated 
disconnect (which happened to be DC since that's the one I had 
handy!).  My understanding is that most of the NON-fused Square D 
switches are rated for 100%.


See this FAQ from the manufacturer: 
https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA237949/, quoted below:


*Resolution:**
*All General Duty, Heavy Duty or Double Throw Safety Switches
maximum current rating, either 80% or 100% of the nameplate
rating, depends on if the switch is Fusible or NON-Fusible.

oFusible switches are rated to carry up to 80% of the amp rating
of the fuses installed in the switch

oNon-fusible (unfused) switches are rated to carry 100% of the
switch nameplate ampere rating

 Regarding this point:

If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was
continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, as I
believe would be required, then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not
suitable.  You can not feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than
30 Amps.

I believe the original poster was asking about a 6000W inverter with 
25A max output.  So in that case you could use a 100% rated 
non-fusible disconnect, because the max current is only 25A.  (The 
required 40A breaker is sized larger because commonly available 
breakers are only 80% rated, not 100%.  But the max current is still 
only 25A.)  See 690.8(A) for calculation of maximum circuit current, 
specifically section (3) for inverters: "The maximum current shall be 
the inverter continuous output current rating."  (Not "the inverter 
continuous output current multiplied by 1.25.")


Best,

Blake

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:59 PM William Miller 
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:


Blake:

Thanks for sharing the data sheet.  The document applies to DC PV
systems, however, and I believe the discussion pertains to the AC
inverter output. Therefore the bulletin you attached does not
apply here.

(Note also that this data sheet indicates you need to use two
poles for any application, ungrounded or grounded.  I believe that
requirement was usurped later on for Square D Heavy Duty switches,
but again, that is for a different application.)

I looked again at Square D general and heavy duty safety switches
rated at 30 Amps and I could not find any reference that these
switches are continuous duty rated.  I still believe that for the
application described, the 125% rating has to be applied.

If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was
continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120/240 to 3 phase 120/208

[Mark Frye]

Years ago I used something called a RotoPhase Phase Converter to supply 
some 3ph equipment on a site that only had 1ph (2ph?). Not efficient.


On 8/6/2019 6:30 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi all

Is there a way to convert a 120/240v generator to a 120/208 3 phase output?

Thx

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall

[Mark Frye]

Uh, Looking at what is happening with Tesla's share price, I am not sure 
I would want to be "investing" in the products of the neglected solar 
division. With Elon alone at the wheel , the Powerwall et. al. might go 
the way of the Dodo before too long.


I have been working lately with folks who have moved on from the 
vestiges of SolarCity. They don't seem to be very impressed with what is 
happening there, at  least not enough to stick around while the division 
molders under the jaundice eye of the visionaries.



On 7/25/2019 11:49 AM, August Goers wrote:

No, we haven't done any zero export. I guess both the Powerwall and 
Enphase systems would need to be independently programmed for zero 
export? I should add a caveat - all of our IQ7 systems have been the 
SunPower branded Equinox type, not Enphase. The main difference being 
that Enphase would use their envoy box and SunPower uses the PV 
Supervisor 6.


August




On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:53 AM Marco Mangelsdorf 
mailto:ma...@pvthawaii.com>> wrote:


Sounds encouraging, August. Mahalo.

Are any of those systems zero export by any chance?

marco

On Thursday, July 25, 2019, August Goers mailto:aug...@luminalt.com>> wrote:

Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far
no problem. Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to
be very robust - we've paired them with many inverter types
and brands, and they always seem to couple up during our
grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our systems are
grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the
long haul if we have major grid outages - who knows if and
when that might happen. I've been in PG territory in the Bay
Area for about 15 years and can only recall one or two short
(less than one hour) power outages.


August




On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf
mailto:ma...@pvthawaii.com>> wrote:

Aloha,

I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with
a Tesla Powerwall or two.

Anyone out there try this?  With bueno or not so bueno
results?

Mahalo,
marco
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[RE-wrenches] Generator for DC Coupled System

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Has anyone had the chance to work with the Polar Power DC generators 
such as https://www.polarpower.com/wp-content/uploads/8220K-972_0115.pdf ?


Anyone aware of good alternatives?

Thanks,

Mark Frye

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Altitude and controllers

[Mark Frye]

Higher altitude equals lower air density equals lower capacity for heat 
transfer to atmosphere equals more heat build up inside equipment.



On 8/20/2018 10:18 AM, ch...@oasismontana.com wrote:


Hi Folks:

What is the deal with altitude restrictions on charge controllers and 
other solid state circuitry?We have a high altitude customer with some 
concerns.


For example, Enphase wants their goods installed at under 2000 meters….

Best,

Chris Daum

Oasis Montana Inc.

406-777-4309 or 4321

406-777-4309 fax

www.oasismontana.com 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Silly off grid

[Mark Frye]

Please let the list know when you get your first request for off-grid 
Bitcoin mining.  :-)



On 7/24/2018 11:57 AM, Ray wrote:


Oh boy, do I get a bunch of calls for folks wanting to take a 24/7 
grow operation off grid.  Dana nailed it: Green house. Even with LED 
grow lights the numbers are just insane.  Every time I get a call like 
this now, I immediately ask for a design fee.  They usually are not to 
be heard from again.  If they're not serious, why should we have to do 
a serious design for free?


Plus why would they want to do that off grid, when there are plenty of 
legit grow operations on grid for much lower electric costs?  It 
always struck me as Fishy.   On the other hand, grid tie on the roof 
of a legit grow operation,  that makes much more sense.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760


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[RE-wrenches] Disappearing Thread

[Mark Frye]

Could have sworn there was a thread here about melted batteries, but it 
not showing in my email client anymore.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Across "Walkway"

[Mark Frye]

Thanks Brian,

I would read this as saying that I CAN run a conduit across the walkway 
since it would be only a "minimal obstruction".


MarK



On 4/19/2018 8:34 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:

Mark-
The 2018 IFC and IRC both state "Pathways shall be located in areas 
with minimal obstructions, such as vent pipes, conduit or mechanical 
equipment."


It must be permanently marked "WARNING PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE" in 
accordance with 690.31(G)(3) as well.



Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
520.204.6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com>


On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Mark Frye <ma...@berkeleysolar.com 
<mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:


Folks,

I have a 3 foot "walkway" on a roof pitch and between two separate
arrays, as required.

Is there anything that prevents me from running a conduit between
    the two arrays, across the "walkway"?

Thanks,

Mark Frye

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[RE-wrenches] Conduit Across "Walkway"

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

I have a 3 foot "walkway" on a roof pitch and between two separate 
arrays, as required.


Is there anything that prevents me from running a conduit between the 
two arrays, across the "walkway"?


Thanks,

Mark Frye

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption

[Mark Frye]

Thanks Darryl.

I guess I can add that I am in CA and so looked only at the 2014. I also 
looked at the 2017 article. Man, I have to say, my impression remains 
that really starting with 2008 the code has just gotten worse and worse 
when it comes to PV, but that is just me.


Not really sure what might need to be "Outside readily accessible". Is 
there something other than 690.12 that I need to look at?


Mark

On 4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:

I think the code says Outside readily accessible,

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye <ma...@berkeleysolar.com 
<mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com>> wrote:


Folks,

As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need
only be placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting
an inverter high up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK
vis-a-vis the location of the disconnect (still accessible for
maintenance).

If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC
conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that
5 feet inside the garage.

That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect
requirement, right?

There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC
disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right?

Mark Frye


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[RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need only be 
placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting an inverter 
high up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK vis-a-vis the 
location of the disconnect (still accessible for maintenance).


If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC 
conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that 5 
feet inside the garage.


That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect requirement, right?

There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC 
disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right?


Mark Frye


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Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters

[Mark Frye]

If you can take multiple 1/4" lags, you can consider the Hollaender 
Speed Rail square flange. I have used this to built steel pipe rack, 
then attaching solar rail to the pipe with u-bolts.



On 3/3/2018 12:45 PM, Ray wrote:


I can see that the TJI manu doesn't want us blowing 3/8" lags through 
the top chord of their engineered system.  On the other hand, it IS 
designed to have nails and at least deck screws put into it, as that's 
how the builder attaches the roof decking. It seems that William's 
measured approach is (as usual) good advice.  I think that multiple 
1/4" lags with predilled holes might be acceptable, but that would be 
up to the engineers and AHJ.  My issue with the EZ feet is that you 
are entirely dependent on how well the roof decking was installed.  
Nails and construction staples don't have great pull out resistance, 
so I would hope that the builder uses some type of rated screws to 
attach the decking.


Ray Walters

Remote Solar



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Re: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries

[Mark Frye]

Looking at the info on-line, it does seem like you are going to need 
significantly more foot print for higher capacity systems.


But had to laugh when I saw the note, "Ideal for Eco-Mansions". Hadn't 
heard that one before.


On 1/4/2018 10:35 AM, jay wrote:

While we are talking about batteries,

Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid?

Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question?

thx
jay

peltz power


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[RE-wrenches] Cougar Paws Size 14

[Mark Frye]

Friends,

I have a pair of size 14 Cougar Paws, boot in very good condition, 
insert somewhat worn.


I would be happy to give them to someone that can wear them, for the 
price of shipping.


Contact me off-line if you can use them.

Mark Frye

p.s. Hoping this does not violate list rules as I am not actually trying 
to sell anything, just trying to keep a good pair of boot from going 
into the trash.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact

[Mark Frye]

The strange days of CitizenRe and it's plans to join with Apollo to 
deliver solar thru vertical marketing are now well in the past; subsumed 
and surpassed by Solar City / Tesla, which will pass into the annals of 
history in it's own time..


CitizenRE...they had it right, but but they didn't do it 
rightand a bit before their time...


there but for the grace of God go I.

On 6/2/2017 1:35 PM, Tom Duffy wrote:

A year or so ago I tried in vain to get anywhere with Apollo and I know Daniel 
and John personally... didn't help... I fear it's a dead end.

Kind regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer

Please note my new E-Mail
E-Mail: t...@solar-biz.com
Main Number: 888-826-0939
Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111 X 122
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first)
I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so 
happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles 
from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's 
wireless!"
Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole 
use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
and delete any copies of this message.


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jeremy Rodriguez
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 11:17 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo Contact

Hello,
I have a potential client needed some help with an Apollo charge controller. If 
anyone has a current phone number I'd appreciate it.

Jeremy Rodriguez
Solar Installation And
Design Expert
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M St
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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[RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo

[Mark Frye]

I was looking at the SMA web-site and it appears that the solution to 
address 2017 module level shutdown is basically to incorporated Tigo 
optimizers.


That seems like a big win for Tigo.

Has anyone used the Power+ Solution yet?

Mark

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li-ion

[Mark Frye]

Jerry I cant seem to find this vendor on the web. Can you send 
information on how to find them?


Thanks,

Mark


On 3/17/2017 5:55 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
We have been using V2 Li ion batteries, their BMS works well, we are 
now testing two systems with an air conditioner, one 5 k and on 10k 
(usable) we just ran a Lezeti one ton ductless DC-48 air conditioner 
at 70 degrees for 31 hours on the 10 k battery system with PV and back 
up charging all off. The battery BMS has dual safety battery 
contactors, aux input and is quick to install. We have been beating 
these up for 9 months now and we just pulled them appart to see the 
battery condition all batteries tested good and went back up on line.
V2 is a US based company and tech support has been helpfull when we 
set up the OB CC voltage setting which is nice. I am to understand 
they came out of the film industry.
I know how it can be looking at battery technologies and this 
manufacture has something that has worked for us.

Jerry


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[RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 In California - 690.47(D)

[Mark Frye]

A follow up on my most recent inspection. I was worried about the AHJ 
requiring the extra ground rod just below the array.


I didn't install the ground rod ahead of the the inspection and expected 
to argue against it, trying for Exception2.


I got signed off without having to install it.

Basically, the AHJ said that he was so overwhelmed by all the new 
requirements in 2014 that he was really not ready to enforce all of 
them, especially 690.47(D) which seemed to make no sense to him.


Well, that was way experience. I imagine that there must be some tension 
between the plan checker (who went out of his way to site and circle a 
call out to 690.47(D) on my plan set) and the inspectors who signed the 
permit card.


Mark


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Direct Burial PV Wire?

[Mark Frye]

Corey,

Generally, when choosing a larger system with multiple string inverters, 
the preferred architecture is to have the string inverters distributed - 
located at the ends of each row, and running AC lines back to a central 
AC combining location. This minimizes the length of the high voltage DC 
wiring to the short jump from the array to inverter and it allows short 
circuit/OCP for the runs back to the AC combiner to be provided by 
standard AC rated equipment.  This also allows the wire runs to be 
standard building wire in plastic conduit.


Did you consider this and choose the "inverter wall" for some particular 
reason?


Mark Frye

Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

On 9/27/2016 1:50 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote:
Umm, is PV Wire rated for direct burial? I have seen several 
manufacturer spec sheets that suggest this is the case, but I haven't 
heard of anyone ever actually doing this.


Project Information:
1.6 MW single axis tracker
(35) 40 kW string inverters
Trenching from row ends to inverter wall, trench lengths will vary 
between 15-100 feet.


--
Corey Shalanski
Joule Energy
New Orleans, LA


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Battery & Outback Radian Inverter

[Mark Frye]

What could be simpler?

For some reason I can't help think of the Great Leap Forward in Chine 
where Mao had all the peasants gathering up all the iron objects and 
melting them down in small furnaces to help increase steel production. 
Of course none of the "steel" was any good.


I guess it is because here I see a bunch of great industrial control 
equipment stuffed into a tiny box and dropped in someones basement. 
That's alot of stuff waiting to break or hang up or reset or something.


I really have to wonder what the operating state of this piece of 
equipment will be in 3 years and if still operational, how many 
person-hours of support and maintenance will have been expended.


Mark Frye

On 6/18/2016 4:48 AM, Chris Mason wrote:

Here's the internals of the one we installed.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0ie2tuqe7y1x9d/2016-06-15%2011.01.43.jpg?dl=0
It's a Radian, the batteries are Sony, there's a PLC in the door 
controlling everything, and a Vera Z-Wave controller for the 
programmable outlets.
The BMS is on the door, connected by the long cable you see at the 
bottom. It's not really long enough, which I complained about.
The transfer switch is a Generac component, very reliable unit, rated 
at 200A.
There is a DIN rail next to the inverter that holds all the internal 
wiring, metering, external connections.
One thing I would advocate, never try to make any connections with 
this unit powered up. It is very tight in there and the risk of 
touching a live terminal is high.
There is a 200A main breaker and a battery breaker, which is software 
controlled for powering down from the front panel. Startup requires 
holding in a DC breaker for the electronics for a few seconds then 
engaging the main battery breaker. The instructions says five seconds 
but I find it takes about 15.





On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Gary Willett 
<g...@icarussolarservices.com <mailto:g...@icarussolarservices.com>> 
wrote:


Enclosed is a photo of what appears to be a test/lab Sonnen system
published in the 01/30/2016 edition of "Power Magazine.

Can plainly see the 8kW Outback Radian inverter and I assume four
12V Sonnen (Sony?) 8kWh Lithium-Ion batteries. Assume this is a
"standard" 48V Radian inverter.


http://www.powermag.com/german-battery-firm-sonnen-moves-into-u-s-home-solar-storage-market/

Regards,

Gary Willett

Icarus Engineering LLC



On 6/17/16 2:09 PM, Chris Mason wrote:

Yes, correct on both. The generator support is there, I did not
use it.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Carl Adams
<swingjun...@gmail.com <mailto:swingjun...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Chris,

Nice finish on the Sonnen install.  It looks fabulous.  My
understanding is the Eco 2-8 integrate the 4kW radian, and
the 10-16 incorporates the 8kW radian.  I assume generator
support is fully supported

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Chris Mason
<cometenergysyst...@gmail.com
<mailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I promised a picture of the Sonnen installation. As these
units are getting close to being appliances in the same
vein as home audio, we wanted to have a clean finish so
we made some mill work to complete the top of the unit to
the ceiling and hide the ugly conduits.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlh0uumlgf5549g/2016-06-15%2011.00.44-1.jpg?dl=0




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--
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com>
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts


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[RE-wrenches] Radian vs SI - Shunt for SOC Control

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

I know with both the Radian and the SI you can use an external shunt to 
support the measurement of KWH and support various SOC controls.


But what happens if you don't use an external shunt?

I am pretty sure that the Radian does not have an internal shunt to 
support SOC control.


What about with the SI? Does it implement it's SOC controls even without 
an external shunt?


Thanks,

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems


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[RE-wrenches] Automotive PV Supplies

[Mark Frye]

A buddy of mine is rigging his van with PV and is looking for some help.

Can anyone suggest a good website for picking components like wire and 
fuses etc.?


Thanks,

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries

[Mark Frye]

It does not bode well that Trojan is currently back ordered on at least 
some AGM batteries until October in order for them to address issues on 
their manufacturing line.


On 8/12/2015 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm 
issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a 
couple of years just as you reported.  We use the T105 RE and have not 
had problems, but stay away from their L16 line.  I otherwise do not 
know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this 
list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and 
our customers needless suffering.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems 
lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well 
cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and 
let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the 
batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see 
diminished output and a reduced life.


One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information 
claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more 
competitive on price.


Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard 
that the company is cutting corners?


Thanks,

Drake

/Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
/http://athens-electric.com/



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[RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy

[Mark Frye]

Does anyone have any thoughts/experience with the Aquion Energy battery?

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
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[RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off

[Mark Frye]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is 
connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the 
batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing 
the AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if 
they had power available from the PV?


How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some 
amount of PV DC coupled.


Thanks,

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others?

[Mark Frye]

Indeed.

I am sad to say that I have the same sculpture on a shelf around here 
somewhere. The trouble is that all the nails used to tack down the 
shingles interfere. The same happens with a flat roof with the first 
layer of tar paper tacked down. On one flat roof job I was able to get 
good confidence on the rafter location by doing many many passes in 
order to develop a kind of night sky of markings where the rafter showed 
up as the milky way. Haven't used the D-Tect since.


Mark Frye

On 5/10/2015 6:02 AM, Matt Partymiller wrote:

We have tried a number of products.  The D-Tect is in amazing stud finder
but did very little on shingle roofs.  The mechanism by which you run it
across a surface is clearly not made for shingles.  It is basically a
$1000 sculpture on the top shelf in our shop.

I am still not aware of any great method for identifying rafters.


On Sun, May 10, 2015 12:40 am, SES wrote:

Please don't reply offlist.  I would kill for a rooftop rafter finder
that points to anything but me.

Sent from my iPad



On May 9, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Mick Abraham m...@abrahamsolar.com
wrote:


Hello, Mechanix~


Sub Scanner was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if
those who bought in could weigh in with their opinions? My main
goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for
anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when
scanning through synthetic stucco  exterior rigid foam insulation.

Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified stud
finder category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need
for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that?

...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews
and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly
confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products.

Contact me off List if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for
purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb!

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Main Service Fuse rated higher than Bus Rating of attached sections?

[Mark Frye]

1. You need to know the actual rating of any sub-section buss that you 
will be backfeeding with PV. Do not backfeed this buss with more than 
100% of it's ampacity.


2. Evaluate 120% of the 4000A buss against the 3500A main and all PV 
backfeed all of the subsections.


Mark Frye

On 2/17/2015 7:37 AM, Allen Frishman wrote:

Mark,
Thank you, your response is very helpful! How does the 120% rule 
get applied to the 1000A sections in my example? When grid connecting 
downstream on the load side of the switches on the 1000A sections do 
we ignore the rating of the 1000A bus bar being protected by a 3500 
Amp Fuse?If yes what section in the code allows this?



/Al Frishman/
AeonSolar

/(917) 699-6641 tel:%28917%29%20699-6641 - cell/
/(888) 460-2867 tel:%2%29%20460-2867/
/www.aeonsolar.com http://www.aeonsolar.com//


On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Mark Frye wrote:


NEC 2008, 240.21 (B)(1)(1) a.

Each of the smaller buss sections are feeders which are sized 
according to the tap rules. I believe the answer to your question is 
that the larger fuse can't protect the smaller buss. *But*, the 
likelihood of a short developing in that section of the circuit is 
very small and if one did, damage to the equipment would be limited 
that area. This is the essence of allowing taps.


Mark Frye

On 2/17/2015 6:17 AM, Allen Frishman wrote:Wrenchers,
I run into lots of Service Equipment that has a Large Service Switch 
which feeds multiple Sections with the Bus bar on each section rated 
significantly less than the main bus.A specific example that I 
am currently looking at has a 4000Amp Switch with a 3500 Amp Fuse 
which feeds 3 (1000 Amp) switchgear sections. How is it possible 
that the 3500 Amp Fuse protects the (3) 1000 Amp Sections?In 
this particular case each of the 1000 Amp Sections has between 3 and 
6 fused switches on them. The sum of those switch/fuse ratings 
exceeds 1000 Amps in each case.For reference - This service gear 
is over 40 years old.


All thoughts are appreciated.

/Al Frishman/
AeonSolar

/(917) 699-6641 tel:%28917%29%20699-6641 - cell/
/(888) 460-2867 tel:%2%29%20460-2867/
/www.aeonsolar.com http://www.aeonsolar.com//




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Main Service Fuse rated higher than Bus Rating of attached sections?

[Mark Frye]

NEC 2008, 240.21 (B)(1)(1) a.

Each of the smaller buss sections are feeders which are sized according 
to the tap rules. I believe the answer to your question is that the 
larger fuse can't protect the smaller buss. *But*, the likelihood of a 
short developing in that section of the circuit is very small and if one 
did, damage to the equipment would be limited that area. This is the 
essence of allowing taps.


Mark Frye

On 2/17/2015 6:17 AM, Allen Frishman wrote:Wrenchers,
I run into lots of Service Equipment that has a Large Service Switch 
which feeds multiple Sections with the Bus bar on each section rated 
significantly less than the main bus.A specific example that I am 
currently looking at has a 4000Amp Switch with a 3500 Amp Fuse which 
feeds 3 (1000 Amp) switchgear sections. How is it possible that 
the 3500 Amp Fuse protects the (3) 1000 Amp Sections?In this 
particular case each of the 1000 Amp Sections has between 3 and 6 
fused switches on them. The sum of those switch/fuse ratings 
exceeds 1000 Amps in each case.For reference - This service gear 
is over 40 years old.


All thoughts are appreciated.

/Al Frishman/
AeonSolar

/(917) 699-6641 tel:%28917%29%20699-6641 - cell/
/(888) 460-2867 tel:%2%29%20460-2867/
/www.aeonsolar.com http://www.aeonsolar.com//




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing?

[Mark Frye]

All my M215's are stable in the field. (100% of M190 and M380 replaced 
at Enphase's cost)


Anyone using the M250? Any feedback?

Mark

On 2/8/2015 6:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
M215 failures? I've seen only 1 or 2 out of thousands. The M215 was a 
remarkable improvement over the M190. Are you having a different 
experience?


Jason Szumlanski

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com 
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:


Folks,

How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked
improvement over M215 in terms of failures?

Mark Frye



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Re: [RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse...

[Mark Frye]

Humm...an LED and 9V battery would serve the would-be bypasser well...

...but of course once we implement yearly inspection and certification 
of the PV system rapid shut down by the local FD, that will deter such 
tampering


Is there an analog to our concerns vis-a-vis 690.12 in Europe or Japan?

On 2/5/2015 10:29 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:


but the first time there is a system out there that does not work 
some guy may just go and bypass it,
 hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are protected and they are 
not, bad deal.


Sounds like a good reason for the system to have proper feedback to
let the firefighters know that the PV really was disconnected.

boB


On 2/5/2015 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Mark and the wrenches group
You do have a point, in the many years of my PV life, we have had 
three building fires not at all related to the PV, on the first, all 
of the insulation on the wires inside the metal conduit was gone, the 
at the time required AC disconnect was turned off, and after all was 
over we were called in to remove our system for the re-construction 
at which time I found a glove print on the conduit in the attic, it 
was wet, smoky and had live wires inside shorted and all that was 
required was a solid ground which it had and worked perfect.
The second fire was the result of someone else and started under the 
home, right next to our EMT conduit, here they were able to turn off 
DC disconnect at the array which was on the ground away from the home 
and the conduit was properly grounded. again this protected the 
firefighters which I support.
The third fire was to far back recall to much but again it was not PV 
related.
I hesitate to say this but all the wigets and waldos will not protect 
against bad installs and some non NEC following related repairs, sure 
shutting down the array on the roof may help, but the first time 
there is a system out there that does not work some guy may just go 
and bypass it, hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are 
protected and they are not, bad deal.
We all need to remember these systems requires power and we are in 
the industry of reducing power demands not increasing them. home 
owners may in time disconnect it them selves for this same reason.

We need more KIS-S
Jerry

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu 
mailto:davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu wrote:


Mark-

690.56(C) provides the placard you're looking for and 690.56(B)
tells the first responder where that 690.12 switch is, right?

For 2017 there are a couple of proposals out there. One is trying
to better educate that first responder (quickly!) as to what
hazards exist. Another is clarifying some of the language for
690.12 such that we continue to have [better] array-level
shutdown. Another is changing 690.12 to [basically] module-level
shutdown, which has been signed onto by the IAFF, insurance
companies, and... some module-level electronics vendors.

We've installed many, many rooftop systems but we're only about
0.1% done with them. Regardless of how 690.12 changes, I think
that in the next few years we'll all be revisiting every system
we've ever worked on to make sure there's enough labeling to
inform firefighters about the hazards. I'm curious how we're
going to do that so that a 2027 firefighter can quickly
distinguish between 2014's Rapid Shutdown, 2017's Even Rapider
Shutdown, 2020's BlockOutTheSun Shutdown, 2014's Rapid Shutdown
That Actually Still Works, 2011's System That Will Only Shock You
If You Cut Through a Module, and 2005's Never-Code-Compliant
system that incorrectly has a Rapid Shutdown label on it
because the homeowner noticed that their neighbor had one.
Somehow we need to make sure firefighters know exactly what
they're up against.

Non-farcically,
DKC



On 2015/2/5 20:08, Mark Frye wrote:

...without a mandatory Stop switch co-located with the
service meter
or main breaker?

How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many,
many, many,
many.

OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is
on fire. How
do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that
it provided
the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is
not require
for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me
than those
that do not.

So does the stop switch become the new fire fighters club
logo? If
you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't
they will
let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system
that does
not include an initiator switch?

Mark Frye







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[RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing?

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked 
improvement over M215 in terms of failures?


Mark Frye
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[RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse...

[Mark Frye]

...without a mandatory Stop switch co-located with the service meter 
or main breaker?


How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many, many, many, 
many.


OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is on fire. How 
do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that it provided 
the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is not require 
for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me than those 
that do not.


So does the stop switch become the new fire fighters club logo? If 
you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't they will 
let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system that does 
not include an initiator switch?


Mark Frye




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions

[Mark Frye]

Thanks David,

This is very helpful.

Mark Frye

On 2/3/2015 12:04 PM, David Brearley wrote:

Mark,

Bill Brooks’ rapid shutdown article for SolarPro does a nice job 
walking through the individual subsections of 690.12.


He also addresses initiation device (type and location), which is not 
covered in the NEC. Here is the relevant text:


*What about the rapid-shutdown initiator?*/ NEC/ 690.12 does not 
specify where you should locate the initiating device or what type of 
device you must install. This lack of detail is intended to provide 
system integrators and AHJs with the flexibility to adapt 
rapid-shutdown solutions to the complexities of the built environment. 
While the best location for a rapid-shutdown device and the required 
label is typically at or near the service equipment, the fire service 
may have preplanned emergency response tactics for some large 
commercial or industrial buildings that favor a different location.


One of the simplest ways to initiate rapid shutdown is to set it up to 
occur automatically upon loss of ac power. This is why /NEC 2014 /does 
not require a specific type of rapid-shutdown initiation device. If 
you install a roof-mounted residential microinverter system or a 
commercial PV system using roof-mounted string inverters located 
within 10 feet of the array, you do not need any special equipment to 
initiate rapid shutdown; you can accomplish this function simply by 
interrupting utility-supplied power to the inverters. Some companies 
have developed various rapid-shutdown switches, and claim that rapid 
shutdown requires these extra switches. However, you have to install 
an extra rapid-shutdown switch only when you need to turn the array 
off by some means other than loss of utility power, as with 
battery-backup systems or inverters equipped with a daytime 
backup-power outlet.


/NEC /690.12 does not specify how many buttons, switches or movements 
of the hand are allowed to complete rapid shutdown. Ideally, the 
process should only require one action. As written today, however, the 
language in 690.12 provides system integrators and AHJs with the 
flexibility to consider alternatives. Note that if the system design 
requires more than one action to initiate rapid shutdown, the 
10-second time limit still applies. Therefore, where systems are 
deployed with more than one initiation device or switch, they should 
all be in close proximity so that emergency personnel can de-energize 
all of the PV system circuits on the building within 10 seconds. 
Further, labeling must clearly identify all of the initiation devices 
and all of the steps required to complete rapid shutdown.


Here’s a link to the complete article: http://bit.ly/1xuDxx7

I hope this is of some assistance,

David Brearley
Senior Technical Editor, /SolarPro/ magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com 
mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com

Direct: 541.261.6545
Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye)
  2. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
 (Jerry Shafer)
  3. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye)
  4. How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye)
  5. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Glenn Burt)
  6. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
 (Christopher Warfel)
  7. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye)
  8. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions
 (will...@millersolar.com mailto:will...@millersolar.com)
  9. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Jerry Shafer)
 10. Re: How to isolate the array DC (b...@midnitesolar.com 
mailto:b...@midnitesolar.com)


*From:*Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com 
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com
*To:*glenn.b...@glbcc.com mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com, RE-wrenches 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC

[Mark Frye]

OK, good. So the various initiator switches being sold by various 
vendors are completely optional. Or rather, you can build a compliant 
rapid shut down system which does not include such a switch.


On 2/2/2015 1:36 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:

I only read where it is necessary to provide the operation of rapid shutdown
and the system be labeled accordingly, not that it needs a dedicated switch
to perform the function.

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 4:24 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC

In order to clear up the conversation...

I you put a relay in a box within 10 feet of the array on the roof, you can
use an relay with a DC rated Normally Open contact to open and
connect/isolate the array DC voltage.

You can drive the coil of that relay with either AC or DC, but either way,
if you lose voltage to drive the coil, the contact opens and isolates.

My point is, for simple grid-tied system, there is no need for a stop
switch anywhere in the system. It doesn't matter whether the contactor coil
is driven by the premise AC or by a DC power supply connected to the premise
AC, when the the main is opened or the meter pulled, the array Dc will
become isolate.

Therefore, there is no need for the stop switch and yet as I understand
it, such a switch is now required by the Code. The switch is not needed but
is required.

Mark Frye
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions

[Mark Frye]

Right, so the the kill switch is not really needed, but yet it is 
required!  ?


On 2/2/2015 1:09 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:


You pull the meter you close the contact thats it so ypu dont hit the 
button but same results


On Feb 2, 2015 11:06 AM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com 
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:


I really do wonder then...

Right now, you go up to the burning house and pull the meter,
bingo, no AC anywhere. So why do we need the kill switch next to
the service (or where ever) IF you drive the roof top
contactor with 120vac or with 24 vdc made from a power supply
powered by 120vac. Either way, pull the meter, no more AC and no
more power to the contactor coil on the roof, so DC limited to the
location of the contactor.

Not really sure how the requirement for the stop switch got into
the Code.

Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 11:11 AM, Mark Frye wrote:

I see. So they have another box on the ground floor with the
kill switch and that box includes a 120/240 vac to 24vdc xfrm
to drive the contactor coil  on the roof? So you run 120/240 vac
to the box with the kill switch?

Mark Frye
On 2/2/2015 10:52 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:


Looks like they use 24VDC for contactor activation, not 120VAC.

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*Mark Frye
*Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2015 1:29 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second
Rule Questions

OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to
energize the coil of the relay up there?

Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

The units we have used have a large contactor inside the
combiner box made by AMtec Solar. this was required to
control the shut down includes a fire button done on the
ground floor

Jerry

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye
ma...@berkeleysolar.com mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com
wrote:

Jerry,

What unit did you use?

Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
We have installed some of these rapid shut down units
and they are always located close to the array and ours
kill the DC instantly as long as the inverter was
running when this accures did not test it with inverters
already off.
Jerry

On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, Christopher Warfel
cwar...@entech-engineering.com
mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com wrote:

We have a interpretation problem among some people I
work with with, and  690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the
10 second time for reducing ac and dc conductors to
240ma, and 30V.  The word initiation seems to indicate
that all affected conductors need to be at these levels
within 10 seconds of de-energizing either the ac or dc
conductors. If so, then the disconnects need to be
co-located to meet this requirement if this
interpretation is correct.

I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs
may feel differently.

Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation?

Thank you, Chris





-- 
Christopher Warfel, President

ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978 tel:401-466-8978


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions

[Mark Frye]

I really do wonder then...

Right now, you go up to the burning house and pull the meter, bingo, no 
AC anywhere. So why do we need the kill switch next to the service (or 
where ever) IF you drive the roof top contactor with 120vac or with 
24 vdc made from a power supply powered by 120vac. Either way, pull the 
meter, no more AC and no more power to the contactor coil on the roof, 
so DC limited to the location of the contactor.


Not really sure how the requirement for the stop switch got into the Code.

Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 11:11 AM, Mark Frye wrote:
I see. So they have another box on the ground floor with the kill 
switch and that box includes a 120/240 vac to 24vdc xfrm to drive the 
contactor coil  on the roof? So you run 120/240 vac to the box with 
the kill switch?


Mark Frye
On 2/2/2015 10:52 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:


Looks like they use 24VDC for contactor activation, not 120VAC.

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Mark Frye

*Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2015 1:29 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule 
Questions


OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize 
the coil of the relay up there?


Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner
box made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut
down includes a fire button done on the ground floor

Jerry

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye
ma...@berkeleysolar.com mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:

Jerry,

What unit did you use?

Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and
they are always located close to the array and ours kill the
DC instantly as long as the inverter was running when this
accures did not test it with inverters already off.
Jerry

On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, Christopher Warfel
cwar...@entech-engineering.com
mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com wrote:

We have a interpretation problem among some people I work
with with, and  690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second
time for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. 
The word initiation seems to indicate that all affected

conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of
de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the
disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if
this interpretation is correct.

I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may
feel differently.

Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation?

Thank you, Chris





-- 
Christopher Warfel, President

ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978 tel:401-466-8978


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Check

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions

[Mark Frye]

Jerry,

What unit did you use?

Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:


Wrenches
We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they are 
always located close to the array and ours kill the DC instantly as 
long as the inverter was running when this accures did not test it 
with inverters already off.

Jerry

On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, Christopher Warfel 
cwar...@entech-engineering.com 
mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com wrote:


We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with
with, and  690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for
reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V.  The word
initiation seems to indicate that all affected conductors need
to be at these levels within 10 seconds of de-energizing either
the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects need to be
co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is correct.

I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel
differently.

Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation?

Thank you, Chris





-- 
Christopher Warfel, President

ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978 tel:401-466-8978


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions

[Mark Frye]

OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize the 
coil of the relay up there?


Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner box 
made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut down 
includes a fire button done on the ground floor

Jerry

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com 
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:


Jerry,

What unit did you use?

Mark Frye


On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:


Wrenches
We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they
are always located close to the array and ours kill the DC
instantly as long as the inverter was running when this accures
did not test it with inverters already off.
Jerry

On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, Christopher Warfel
cwar...@entech-engineering.com
mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com wrote:

We have a interpretation problem among some people I work
with with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second
time for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. 
The word initiation seems to indicate that all affected

conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of
de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the
disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if
this interpretation is correct.

I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may
feel differently.

Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation?

Thank you, Chris





-- 
Christopher Warfel, President

ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978 tel:401-466-8978


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[RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC

[Mark Frye]

In order to clear up the conversation...

I you put a relay in a box within 10 feet of the array on the roof, you 
can use an relay with a DC rated Normally Open contact to open and 
connect/isolate the array DC voltage.


You can drive the coil of that relay with either AC or DC, but either 
way, if you lose voltage to drive the coil, the contact opens and isolates.


My point is, for simple grid-tied system, there is no need for a stop 
switch anywhere in the system. It doesn't matter whether the contactor 
coil is driven by the premise AC or by a DC power supply connected to 
the premise AC, when the the main is opened or the meter pulled, the 
array Dc will become isolate.


Therefore, there is no need for the stop switch and yet as I 
understand it, such a switch is now required by the Code. The switch is 
not needed but is required.


Mark Frye
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions

[Mark Frye]

I see. So they have another box on the ground floor with the kill 
switch and that box includes a 120/240 vac to 24vdc xfrm to drive the 
contactor coil  on the roof? So you run 120/240 vac to the box with the 
kill switch?


Mark Frye
On 2/2/2015 10:52 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:


Looks like they use 24VDC for contactor activation, not 120VAC.

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Mark Frye

*Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2015 1:29 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule 
Questions


OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize 
the coil of the relay up there?


Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner
box made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut
down includes a fire button done on the ground floor

Jerry

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com
mailto:ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:

Jerry,

What unit did you use?

Mark Frye

On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they
are always located close to the array and ours kill the DC
instantly as long as the inverter was running when this
accures did not test it with inverters already off.
Jerry

On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, Christopher Warfel
cwar...@entech-engineering.com
mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com wrote:

We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with
with, and  690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time
for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V.  The word
initiation seems to indicate that all affected conductors
need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of de-energizing
either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects
need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this
interpretation is correct.

I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may
feel differently.

Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation?

Thank you, Chris





-- 
Christopher Warfel, President

ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978 tel:401-466-8978


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Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question

[Mark Frye]

Yes, beautiful. But I am still trying to figure out if it is NEC 
compliant. At first pass, it seems like it is missing a few 
disconnecting means.


On 1/3/2015 10:48 AM, Larry wrote:
Wow, Jarmo! That is some incredible workmanship and a great way to 
interconnect multiple inverters and chargers. You can tell they have 
done this a few times. Thanks for sharing those photos.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
On 1/3/15 9:16 AM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:

Hi:

This link takes you to a site in Romania so you (likely) wont be able 
to read the text, but  it does have a lot of good pictures.


This installer has been using XW since about 2007 and has a tons of 
experience.  I like what he does with the DC wiring/busbars.  The 
breakers are in the box below the inverters and charge controllers.


http://customer.lpelectric.ro/doc/sibiu2/sibiu2_28kw_fotovoltaic.html

JARMO
_
*
Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **  |  Solar Business*  | 
*CANADA*  | *Training  Development Specialist - Senior* *
Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Fax:* +604-420-1591  | *Mobile:* 
+604-505-0291 *
Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ 
mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | 
*Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ http://www.sesolar.com/ | *Address:* 3700 
Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1

_
_http://%20www.sesolar.com/
*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



From:   drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org,
Date:   01/02/2015 05:18 PM
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question
Sent by:RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org






4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for
multiple inverters?

I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2 PVC conduits. It gets
pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery
boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean
solutions for these systems?

Thanks,

Drake





 Some other things:  If you keep the conduit less than 24 long, 
which is

 recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill
 requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2)
 Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C.  Then 240.6
 lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be
 used by 240.4(B)  So you can just justify 4/0.
 Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity
 table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not in conduit and 4/0 
cable at

 75 C is rated to 360 amps.
 The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code
 from my read of it though.  Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite
 the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and
 cannot be used.
 Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the
 inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously.
 Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20
 years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem.

 R.Ray Walters
 CTO, Solarray, Inc
 Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
 Licensed Master Electrician
 Solar Design Engineer
 303 505-8760

 On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote:
 Happy new year all.

 I have a question on wire sizing for the following.

 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc)
 conduit from battery box to enclosure

 I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop.

 thanks

 jay

 peltz power





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Side Tap

[Mark Frye]

Max,

Don't do the tap alone, you would be overdriving the subpanel. You would 
need 200A of OCP somewhere between the tap and sub panel loads. Convert 
the MOL to a 200A Main Breaker or install a 200A fused disconnect 
between the tap and the MLO subpanel.


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

On 9/13/2014 3:40 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote:
Fellow wrenches, I've got an install that is a little different than 
any I've done before. We are going to put an 18 Kw groundmount on the 
side of a hill (nothing new so far).
The Array will be about 150 feet from a 200 amp MLO subpanel in the 
garage of a guest house. Still nothing new. The sub panel is 500 ft 
from the 400 amp main service. The 200 amp sub feed is 250 MCM. There 
is not much load on the 200 amp sub panel. The twist on this one is 
this, there is a pull box in the vicinity of the proposed array 
location. It contains the feed from the House Main (250 MCM) It simply 
loops thru the box, I'm sure because of the length of the run. We are 
400 feet from the main 400 amp panel and about 100 ft from the 200 amp 
sub panel. My thoughts are to tap the 250 MCM in the pull box to back 
feed the subfeed to the Main. The other option is to pull wire from 
the pull box to the sub panel and land a breaker for the 95 amp feed 
from the array. Any thoughts??

Max Balchowsky
Design Engineer
SEE Systems
1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217
Newport Beach, Ca. 92660
760-403-6810
Building a Better Future For The Next Generation





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[RE-wrenches] Cooler Modules

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Two identical PV modules are mount in an identical fashion and exposed 
to identical irradiance.


One module is open circuit. The other is connected to a load and 
producing power.


Is there a difference in the temperature of the two modules? If so, 
which one is cooler?


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Assembly Protects Conductors?

[Mark Frye]

Ray,

I can't follow you all the way down that path.

Is an insulated wire conductor permitted to be use at 100% of it's 
rating under continuous operation? No. The ampacity is reduced and the 
conductor must be up-sized. Hence, for a defined load (Isc * 1.25), 
under continious operation, the conductor must be upsized to match 
(defined load * 1.25). I don't see how this can be changed by simply 
changing the nature of the OCP. I think the point of this exception is 
to allow cost savings by allow assemblies and OCP devices with lower 
ratings. The exception does not apply to every element of the circuit 
(the conductors) but only to the 100% rated assemblies and OCP themselves.


What am I missing?

Thanks,

Mark

On 8/22/2014 6:14 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
Most combiner boxes, DC rated breakers, and DC rated fuses and fuse 
holders we use today, qualify as assemblies for the 100% exception 
(Outback, Midnite, etc.) so you only have to size the OCP by 125% 
of short circuit current rating for edge of cloud effects.
Since the conductor is sized based on the overcurrent protection, you 
do not need to size it to 156% of the short circuit current rating, if 
you take advantage of 100% duty rated breakers and combiners.  Also, 
recombiners are still basically combiner boxes, and so all the same 
rules apply.  The additional 125% is only for breakers that are rated 
at 80%  (most AC breakers for example) .
For DC, the only time you would size for the full 156% would be if you 
were using something like an old QOU breaker, and those aren't rated 
for high enough voltage for today's arrays anyway.   I'm not aware of 
any other readily available DC rated breaker that is NOT 100% duty 
rated.   Some RK5 fuse assemblies may also not be 100% rated. (Wrench 
Colleagues please correct me on this)
Basically unless you are using surplus equipment from the stone age, 
(no offense to my fellow stone age wrenches)  you only need to 
oversize the conductors by 125%.  By the time you apply all the other 
applicable deratings for conduit fill, terminals rated at 75 C, and 
direct sunlight on roofs (table 310.15B3c)  and consider voltage drop, 
you really don't need to keep oversizing.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/22/2014 2:34 PM, ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:

Folks,

In looking at a circuit breaker based re-combiner for the first time, 
I am

now pondering the meaning of the Exception below:

NEC 2014 690.8 (B) Conductor Ampacity. PV system currents shall be
considered to be continuous. Circuit conductors shall be
sized to carry not less than the larger of 690.8(B)(1) or (2).

(1) One hundred and twenty-five percent of the maximum
currents calculated in 690.8(A) before the application of
adjustment and correction factors.

Exception: Circuits containing an assembly, together with
its overcurrent device(s), that is listed for continuous operation
at 100 percent of its rating shall be permitted to be
used at 100 percent of its rating.

Just to be clear, it is only the assembly that can be used at 100 
percent
of its rating. (Isc*number of strings*1.25) The conductors in the 
circuit

still have to be sized for continuous operation (Isc*number of
strings*1.25*1.25).

I ask because a vendor with a 100% circuit breaker re-combiner states in
their cut sheet that use of the device allow
smaller home run cable sizes from the string combiner to the 
inverter. Is

anyone aware of a means by which this claim can be substantiated?

Thanks,

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Assembly Protects Conductors?

[Mark Frye]

Wow. OK Ray.

This issue of 100% rated under continious use is interesting. Thanks for 
helping me get my head around it.


The exception in 210.19 is certainly explicit. Too bad, for this one 
man, the exception in 690.8 is less so.


Mark

On 8/23/2014 10:35 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

The 100% exception is listed in 2 places:
690.8(B)(1) which sizes the conductor, and 690.9(B) which sizes the OCD.
Article 210 doesn't apply, as that is for branch circuits, not PV 
source circuits.
690.8 basically walks you through conductor sizing.  690.8(B) requires 
2 calculations one for B(1)  which is simply  Asc x 125% ( 
690.8(A)(1)  the edge of cloud effect), and is exempted from any 
additional derating if using the 100% rated assemblies.
690.9(B)(2) then  takes Asc x 125% as well, and then applies all the 
previously mentioned adjustments and correction factors.

Which ever is larger is what you are required to use.

The 100% exemption basically means that 690.9(B)(2) will prevail, and 
you may end up with a bit less than the additional 125% (or not)
Basically, the days of multiplying  by 156% are mostly over with 
today's combiner boxes.
However, properly applying all the corrections and deratings on a roof 
is a different story, that has been covered by others more informed 
than I.

Check SolarPro magazine, and 310.15.

Later we can get into the debate of when to apply table 310.15(B)(17) 
ampacity ratings in free air..
Does it apply to array conductors before they transition into 
conduit?  Does it apply (as some manufacturers claim) inside of 
enclosures, or for conductors run through less than24 of raceway?
Stay tuned, I'm still trying to figure that one out.  Does someone 
else want to jump in here?


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/23/2014 9:41 AM, Mark Frye wrote:

Ray,

I can't follow you all the way down that path.

Is an insulated wire conductor permitted to be use at 100% of it's 
rating under continuous operation? No. The ampacity is reduced and 
the conductor must be up-sized. Hence, for a defined load (Isc * 
1.25), under continious operation, the conductor must be upsized to 
match (defined load * 1.25). I don't see how this can be changed by 
simply changing the nature of the OCP. I think the point of this 
exception is to allow cost savings by allow assemblies and OCP 
devices with lower ratings. The exception does not apply to every 
element of the circuit (the conductors) but only to the 100% rated 
assemblies and OCP themselves.


What am I missing?

Thanks,

Mark

On 8/22/2014 6:14 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
Most combiner boxes, DC rated breakers, and DC rated fuses and fuse 
holders we use today, qualify as assemblies for the 100% exception 
(Outback, Midnite, etc.) so you only have to size the OCP by 
125% of short circuit current rating for edge of cloud effects.
Since the conductor is sized based on the overcurrent protection, 
you do not need to size it to 156% of the short circuit current 
rating, if you take advantage of 100% duty rated breakers and 
combiners.  Also, recombiners are still basically combiner boxes, 
and so all the same rules apply. The additional 125% is only for 
breakers that are rated at 80%  (most AC breakers for example) .
For DC, the only time you would size for the full 156% would be if 
you were using something like an old QOU breaker, and those aren't 
rated for high enough voltage for today's arrays anyway.   I'm not 
aware of any other readily available DC rated breaker that is NOT 
100% duty rated.   Some RK5 fuse assemblies may also not be 100% 
rated. (Wrench Colleagues please correct me on this)
Basically unless you are using surplus equipment from the stone age, 
(no offense to my fellow stone age wrenches)  you only need to 
oversize the conductors by 125%.  By the time you apply all the 
other applicable deratings for conduit fill, terminals rated at 75 
C, and direct sunlight on roofs (table 310.15B3c)  and consider 
voltage drop, you really don't need to keep oversizing.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/22/2014 2:34 PM, ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:

Folks,

In looking at a circuit breaker based re-combiner for the first 
time, I am

now pondering the meaning of the Exception below:

NEC 2014 690.8 (B) Conductor Ampacity. PV system currents shall be
considered to be continuous. Circuit conductors shall be
sized to carry not less than the larger of 690.8(B)(1) or (2).

(1) One hundred and twenty-five percent of the maximum
currents calculated in 690.8(A) before the application of
adjustment and correction factors.

Exception: Circuits containing an assembly, together with
its overcurrent device(s), that is listed for continuous operation
at 100 percent of its rating shall be permitted to be
used at 100 percent of its rating.

Just

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion

[Mark Frye]

The thing I am noticing about these systems is complexity. All the 
different sense wires and circuit boards associated with maintaining 
charge levels on individual cells. I guess the auto groups have been 
hammering reliability, but what about deployment into the off-grid 
space, is it robust enough?


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

On 2/28/2014 10:33 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Ray,

I had a 100AH battery for about 3 weeks of testing. I worked it hard. I even 
over discharged it once. It worked perfectly at different charge and discharge 
rates. The most interesting thing was that the 100Ah battery regularly provided 
115AH at 95% DoD.

I would sell the CALBS but, again, the US distribution is only through other 
dealers. There are several people importing them but they all teated me like 
the end user or consumer. For off grid use, the Lithium battery industry has a 
long way to go to make these mainstream. I hope to change that some.

Larry

On Feb 27, 2014, at 7:43 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote:

Larry;

You mentioned  you tested CALB batteries; what was your experience with them?

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 2/27/2014 4:44 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Jay,

I'm an authorized dealer of GBS systems and we stock and sell them here in our 
retail store. I can build any voltage bank in 12 volt increments. All our 
systems include EMS computer, cell level balancing, temperature and SoC 
monitoring with over/under voltage protection. Basically a turn-key setup.

We tested CALB for a while and tried to get other lithium brands in but the 
distribution market in the USA is a horrible mess when it comes to Lithium 
batteries. I got frustrated after trying to communicate with importers and 
choose GBS because they had the best and most intelligent response to me. GBS 
batteries are LiFeMgPO4 or LFMP which is safer, won't catch fire. When 
comparing life cycles, LFMP is lower cost than any lead acid batteries.

If you're interested, I can configure a system for you and get you discount 
cost for resale. Contact me off the board.

Larry
928-342-9103

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Re: [RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines

[Mark Frye]

There are so so many well informed people on this list, and I am so lazy.

I wish someone could just lay it all out:

We got the 2012 ABC thing nearly identical to NPPA1 with the set backs 
and labeling

We got the 2014 NEC with the de-energizing the conductors and equipment
We got the IBC which appears to say one thing about fire rating ie. 
needs to be the same as roof
And we got the UL thing that seems to be based on the combined rating of 
the module and racking system


Wow, I commend anyone who is willing to go into a building department 
and lay down a set of plans.


Mark


On 2/13/2014 10:50 AM, William Korthof wrote:

Bill,

Thanks for the attached info. I don't see where the fire rating class of solar 
modules is addressed though...

In the IBC, the specific section (I believe 902.4 or close to that) seems to 
call for solar modules to carry the same fire rating class as the roofing class 
required of the building. At least that's the interpretation I initially got 
from my local building and safety office. They've been sitting on my plans for 
two weeks so far. When they turn them around, I may have more to talk about.


/wk

William Korthof
714.875.3576
Sustainable Solutions
#956904

On Feb 13, 2014, at 9:34 AM, Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote:

Yes Peter,

It is called the 2012 International Fire Code. The California guidelines
were turned into code in 2012. There is an explanation document I wrote
available online at:

http://solarabcs.org//about/publications/reports/fireguideline/index.html

For those states that are using NFPA 1 as their fire code, it is nearly
identical.

Bill.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings

[Mark Frye]

Guess I am missing the thread. Does it even matter anymore what the 
rating of the modules is anymore? What is now operative is a rating of 
the combined module/mounting system?


Mark

On 2/7/2014 9:38 AM, David Brearley wrote:

There are several SolarABCs reports that speak to this. For example:

http://bit.ly/1bD8wM7 
http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/docs/UL_Report_Gap_and_Flashing_Exps_3-29-12.pdf


The complete list of reports is found here:

http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html

David Brearley
Senior Technical Editor,/SolarPro/magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com 
mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com

Direct: 541.261.6545



On Feb 7, 2014, at 8:55 AM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote:



*
From:*Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net 
mailto:solar1onl...@charter.net

*Subject:**Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings*
*Date:*February 7, 2014 8:54:22 AM CST
*To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Reply-To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org




Hi David,

Can you elaborate on the mounting system(s?) that would minimize fire 
propagation?


TIA,
Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings

[Mark Frye]

So does this help understand why Sunrun bought REC and Snap n Rack? 
Going forward the only installable equipment will be provided by large 
groups that can afford to test and rate their own panel with specific 
racking systems that they also own?


Mark

On 2/7/2014 9:38 AM, David Brearley wrote:

There are several SolarABCs reports that speak to this. For example:

http://bit.ly/1bD8wM7 
http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/docs/UL_Report_Gap_and_Flashing_Exps_3-29-12.pdf


The complete list of reports is found here:

http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html

David Brearley
Senior Technical Editor,/SolarPro/magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com 
mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com

Direct: 541.261.6545



On Feb 7, 2014, at 8:55 AM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote:



*
From:*Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net 
mailto:solar1onl...@charter.net

*Subject:**Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings*
*Date:*February 7, 2014 8:54:22 AM CST
*To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Reply-To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org




Hi David,

Can you elaborate on the mounting system(s?) that would minimize fire 
propagation?


TIA,
Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094




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Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown

[Mark Frye]

OK. So I will have a high rate of acceptance if it buy an Tyco vacuum 
relay, and mount it in a Hoffman enclosure, and then put it on my roof?


On 1/21/2014 5:45 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:


Brian,

The requirement is generic. A listed contactor can meet the 
requirement. A standard is only necessary for products that want to be 
innovative in meeting the 30V, 240VA. Killing all power is an option 
with existing listed equipment. NEC 90.4 does not apply.


Bill.

*From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of 
*Brian Mehalic

*Sent:* Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:36 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown

It was suggested to me that since 690.12(5) requires the equipment to 
be listed and identified, and there is no standard for rapid shutdown 
equipment to be listed to then 90.3 (.4?...oh why isn't the NEC on my 
iPad...)says 'revert to the previous version of the NEC' and presto, 
no need to install rapid shutdown. I don't like this but the the 
person suggesting it certainly has an audience and this will appeal to 
installers looking to save on cost wherever possible.


Sent from my iPad


On Jan 21, 2014, at 5:11 PM, David Brearley 
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com 
mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote:


Drake,

The language in 690.12 is the compromise solution that was reached
to ensure continued industry stability. The alternative to the
combiner-level shutdown was module-level shutdown. It took a
consolidated industry effort to push the module-level requirements
out one more Code cycle---for the exact reasons that you touch on
below.

Not sure if this link has been published on the Wrenches list or
not, but it provides some background on the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUXShMZJorQ

David Brearley

Senior Technical Editor,/SolarPro/magazine

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com

Direct: 541.261.6545

On Jan 21, 2014, at 1:12 PM,
re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote:



*From:*Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org

*Subject:**Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown*

*Date:*January 21, 2014 11:36:15 AM CST

*To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

*Reply-To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org




Bill,

It is good to see that energized conductors are going to be
disconnected near the arrays. I've been an advocate of
disconnecting these conductors by ground fault sensing
equipment since ground fault detection was first implemented
in the code. If contactors are to be installed on roofs, it
likely won't be long before both ground faults and arc faults
are automatically cleared.

When the requirement for AC arc fault branch circuit
protection was first put in the NEC, it was postdated to allow
time for the electrical industry to adapt. This new remote
disconnecting requirement does not provide any lead time.

As the 2014 NEC is adopted in various jurisdictions,
inspectors may feel that it is necessary to disallow systems
without the newly required disconnect feature. This may result
in serious problems for solar companies and customers, as well
as manufacturers.

The protection of firefighters is essential. The
implementation of renewables is essential also. Insurance
claims for weather related, global warming-triggered climatic
disasters are rising exponentially. Extreme weather related
events result in major loss of life and billions of dollars in
property damage. Atmospheric CO2 levels continue to climb from
the burning of fossil fuels. This is a crisis of global
proportions.

My request for code writers is to please take into account the
effect that inserting new rules into the NEC may have on the
stability of renewable energy, and implement new requirements
in a way that will allow for a smooth interface.

Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
/Athens Electric LLC//
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
/http://athens-electric.com/

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Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown

[Mark Frye]

The un-controlled conductor could be up to 15 feet, 10 on the roof and 5 
in the building?


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

On 1/15/2014 2:02 PM, Daniel Young wrote:


Here is a link for a video where Mike Holt helps with an explanation 
to your question.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUXShMZJorQ

Essentially, the rapid shutdown needs to keep the energized length of 
conductors to within 10' of the array if on the roof (this rule is 
only for arrays on buildings) or within 5' of building penetration. I 
would assume that if you are 9' on the roof, you then only have 1' in 
the building before you need the shutdown device.


So micro inverters and some DC-DC optimizers should comply with the 
standard as is (since they prevent wires from being energized with _DC 
voltage_ before they even leave the array). But string inverter 
systems will need to get creative with how they address this. Midnite 
solar disco combiners with the birdhouse seem to be a possible 
solution, but they add a lot of cost to some smaller systems that 
didn't even need combiners before, let alone disconnect combiners with 
power supply cards and separate control boxes...


Hopefully a better solution for small string inverters is on the horizon.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer^TM : Cert #SH031409-13

*From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of 
*Jeffrey Quackenbush

*Sent:* Tuesday, January 07, 2014 10:46 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown

I've been going through the new Code book (which is in effect now in 
Massachusetts) and found myself somewhat puzzled by the intent of the 
new rapid shutdown requirement in 690.12. Does anyone have insight 
into how this is supposed to be interpreted and implemented? I've put 
together a list of my own questions, given below (the numbers 
reference the new 690.12 text). Thanks!


*690.12 Rapid Shutdown*

1. Where should the rapid shutdown switch be located? (1) only says 
that the shutdown function should be installed if the circuit is 
longer than 10' or goes more than 5' into a building. If this 
condition is fulfilled, it says nothing about where the switch should 
be located. (2) says that controlled conductors should be limited to 
30V, 240W, which will only be the case downline from the switch, so 
this may mean that it should be located close to the source, i.e. on 
the roof. But this is just an inference, and one that doesn't have 
clear boundaries; every source conductor for a series connected PV 
circuit (that is not Solar Edge, Enphase , etc.) will have a higher 
voltage and wattage potential when the sun is shining /somewhere/ 
along its length, even if the disconnect is located very close to the 
array. Or does this requirement mean that all systems will need to 
have some kind of smart junction box, module DC-DC converter or 
module level AC inverter? Furthermore, individual modules often have 
higher voltages  wattages these days and there is no way to impose 
limits on their electrical characteristics in any field wired 
configurations. A listed AC module that sees the module leads as 
internal would be the only scenario that would be exempt.


2. (5) asks that equipment performing the shutdown should be listed 
and identified. Does that mean listed and identified for the purpose 
of this specific requirement? Or just listed and identified to limit 
voltage and wattage in 10 seconds? Does a specific UL standard exist 
for the function they have in mind? Does any equipment exist that has 
such listing and identification yet?


3. Is the rapid shutdown intended to be automatic or manual? If 
automatic, what are the parameters that would trigger the shutdown? If 
manual, are there any accessibility requirements?


4. Rapid shutdown seems more like a disconnect requirement than a 
circuit requirement. Why limit circuits to 30V, 240W, instead of just 
requiring a shutdown? Why 10 seconds, when all the disconnecting 
functions (i.e. manual disconnects, and internal AFCI, GFCI  UL 1740 
disconnects) happen in less than a second? (It hardly seems like a 
rapid shutdown). Why write this article into section II rather than 
section III?




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[RE-wrenches] SB 240 - No Neutral Sense Conductor

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

I was looking at the SMA micro inverter and notice only connections for 
L1, L2 and earth. I thought all grid tied inverters needed a neutral 
sense conductor to monitor for phase loss.


Any ideas?

Mark Frye
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[RE-wrenches] Hawaii Frequency Settings

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

 

I was told that because the HI grid has poor frequency control, grid-tied
inverters have to have their low frequency limit set to 57 Hz so they can
ride out the worst low frequency events.

 

I find it hard to believe that this has been done for every single inverter
installed in HI.

 

But, what do I know.

 

Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark Frye

Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

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[RE-wrenches] Dc Power Supply on Microinverter input

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Anyone have an idea of what would happen if I connected a bench top DC 
power supply with adjustable voltage and current to the pv inputs of a 
microinverter that is also connected on the Ac side? Would something bad 
happen as the inverter tries to run it's mppt on the ps?


Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems

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[RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules

[Mark Frye]

Does anyone have the latest on the GEC for micro-inverters/ACPV issue?

I know it is still in NEC 2008 and I believe 2011 with plans to address 
it in 2014.


I am specifically interested in the issue of GEC means continues 
(irreversible splices) and the whole business of the DC side of these 
devices constituting a separately derived system.


Enphase technical support is fine if the micro inverter chasis is bonded 
to a EGC only, but they leave the lug on the chasis if you want/need to 
build a GEC.


SolarBridge (pre-assembled micro-inverter) seems to be devoid of a 
chasis lug and therefore by extension does not/can not had a GEC in the 
system.


Exeltech (integrated micro-inverter aka. ACPV) does not seem to have a 
lug on its chasis.


Has the industry pretty much moved to not requiring a GEC for these 
devices and if so, how are the AHJ taking it?


Thanks,
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules

[Mark Frye]

I am interested in the SolarBridge , it has no chasis lug so it must not 
require a GEC, right?


So why does it not require a GEC? Is it because it is not an isolated 
inverter? Because it is an isolated inverter that does not have a 
grounded current carrying conductor on the DC side? Because it is listed 
as an AC module so who cares what is happening on the DC side?


On 1/14/2013 6:52 PM, John Berdner wrote:

Mark:

The GEC is required if the inverter bonds one of the PV conductors to ground 
(as Enphase does).
Enphase support may not have a problem with it but not using a GEC (with all 
the GEC requirements) on any system with a grounded array is definitely a Code 
violation in NEC 2008 and 2011.
I don't recall it being eliminated in the 2014 Code either but could be wrong.

If the inverter does not bond the array positive or array negative to ground 
then the array is ungrounded so no GEC is required.
Non-isolated inverters (also referred to as transformerless inverters) do not 
bond the array negative or array positive to ground and so no GEC is required 
(EGC is still required).

If you have a Listed AC module then none of the DC side requirements apply so 
no GEC would be required unless required by the manufacturer's instructions.
Unfortunately, adding a micro-inverter to a module in the field does not make 
it a Listed ac module.

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3201 ext 747
M: 530.277.4894


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 3:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules

Does anyone have the latest on the GEC for micro-inverters/ACPV issue?

I know it is still in NEC 2008 and I believe 2011 with plans to address it in 
2014.

I am specifically interested in the issue of GEC means continues (irreversible 
splices) and the whole business of the DC side of these devices constituting a 
separately derived system.

Enphase technical support is fine if the micro inverter chasis is bonded to a 
EGC only, but they leave the lug on the chasis if you want/need to build a GEC.

SolarBridge (pre-assembled micro-inverter) seems to be devoid of a chasis lug 
and therefore by extension does not/can not had a GEC in the system.

Exeltech (integrated micro-inverter aka. ACPV) does not seem to have a lug on 
its chasis.

Has the industry pretty much moved to not requiring a GEC for these devices and 
if so, how are the AHJ taking it?

Thanks,
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
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