[RE-wrenches] California Photovoltaic Requirement 1/1/2020

[Peter Parrish]

I had a question about the new law I couldn’t answer.

Is the PV requirement effective when the permit is submitted, or when is it 
pulled (i.e. approved) for new residential construction or when the permit is 
finaled by all parties, or when the Certificate of Occupancy is issued, or when 
the residential building is sold?

I can imagine a situation where the permit is pulled in May 1, 2019 and the 
home is sold in December 31, 2019.

Versus 

Permit is pulled in May 1, 2019 and the home is sold in January 1, 2020.

 
Is there some certification at closing that the home meets the new law?

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish
California Solar Engineering
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] GE Energy Roof-Integrated Solar Electric power Systems

[Peter Parrish]

I did an install in 2007 for a customer in the High Desert just outside of 
Hesperia, CA. Since he was a General Electric employee at the time, he had 
access to the GEPV-055 module. We installed 102 of these puppies (three strings 
of 34 modules each) into a new, flat concrete tile roof. It looked and still 
does look very sharp (no pun intended). We used a single Fronius IG-5100, and 
had some problems with the first inverter, but no problems with the inverter 
since.

Here is the problem. We are getting about 60% of the power out of the PV system 
that we think we should. I have taken PVA string analyzer measurements on 
several occasions. The strings fail to develop anywhere near Pmp even when the 
normal irradiance is fairly high (~700 W/m2). I know how to do a KI/KT/KS 
calculation. The Isc is okay but at about ½ of Voc, the output power drops 
considerably.

It took me about three months to raise the  dead at what’s left of GE Energy, 
and they told me that GE sold all the IP rights, manufacturing and warranty 
obligations to Motec. They  gave me the email of two nameless Motec employees. 
I have emailed them on several occasions. The email doesn’t bounce but 
nonetheless I get no response from my efforts. I talked to David Birka-White, 
who was the lead litigator on the BP Solar class action lawsuit. But we 
concluded that the GE product was too low volume to be worth his time.

I am now looking into whether or not Motec is incorporated in the US which may 
give me some leverage. Other that that, I am out of ideas.

Has anyone else had problems with this product, and can share information?

- Peter 

Peter T. Parrish
California Solar Engineering
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

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[RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter

[Peter Parrish]

I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I was 
just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC fuse 
holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually advised my 
clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add some PV panels 
into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while and then finally 
gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor.

I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green events”. 
Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as time goes by 
I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, and I wish I had 
an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into a revenue producing 
grid tied system.

Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) that 
works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there a solid  
~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market?

My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

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[RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product?

[Peter Parrish]

When I was a C-46 contractor in California from 2000 to 2012, I used to do 
about 1/3 of my business as grid-tied battery backup and off-grid. I came to 
focus on the Outback solutions in general, and later the Radian 8048 and 240 
A-hr AGM batteries. 

That was obviously a while ago. I became an educator and a consultant helping 
California K-12 school districts become more energy efficient and energy 
conserving. 

Nonetheless, I had a left-over client that was working through a full-house 
“gut and rebuild”. I recommended the most efficient lighting, A/C, fridges. I 
helped him create dedicated branch circuits should he want to back-up critical 
loads. I designed a SMA/LG 12.4 kW roof mount system together with a 400 A 
240/120 V split phase service panel. We were ready for battery back up and also 
told him that there was a new program – California SGIP. One-half of his 
service panel remains untouched.

So with the SGIP Program, I put in a reservation to Southern California Edison 
for a 8 kW / 16 kWh (Sonnen ECO-16 -- based)  “smart storage” system. The guys 
at Sonnen made a number of faux pas, so we went looking elsewhere.

I really like the SMA SB inverters. The three MPP inputs, the secure power 
supply. So I thought since SMA claimed to have a “Sunny Boy Storage” system 
that was SGIP-compliant, and had taken this new product on a eight-city road 
show, we were “in like Flynn”.

Fast forward: I have spoken to my sales rep at Wesco, and FIVE – count them 
FIVE -- people at SMA Sales and presales Tech Support , and not one person 
claimes to have knowledge of the Sunny Boy Storage system. Have I gone blind, 
dum and crazy?

I understand that StorEdge product has traction and I am ready to jump ship. 
What am I missing?

Peter Parrish

Peter T. Parrish
Calofornia Solar Engineering
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers

[Peter Parrish]

They are expensive. But from a technical point of view, very few people 
understand (or know how to use) the concept of “Days of Autonomy”. I personally 
use a 3X factor but if I want to be extra conservative and the application is 
is critical I use a 4X factor.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

From: Dan Fink
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 9:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers

Every one of these I've seen so fardating back over 10 yearsdrastically 
undersizes the battery bank, I assume because that's the expensive part.


Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342

 


On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 9:21 AM glenn.b...@glbcc.com  
wrote:
I recently saw a YouTube video that compared 4 or 5 portable power units. You 
might try a search there.

Glenn

Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.

-- Original message--
From: Peter Parrish
Date: Sun, Dec 9, 2018 1:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches;
Cc: 
Subject:[RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers

We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid 
power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for 
homeless folks in the Ventura CA area.
 
The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three 
refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single 
occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem.
 
We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for 
the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 
Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of 
$2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And 
looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than 
$1.10/W. 
 
Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there 
might be o ther companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing 
on other markets like developing countries.
 
Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line.
 
Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers

[Peter Parrish]

Thanks Bill, and everyone else:

When I was a CA solar contractor, I designed and oversaw the installation of 
over 20 “grid-tied battery back up systems”. I now have an approved application 
into the Southern California Edison SGIP program, spec’ing a 16 kWh and 8 kW 
“smart” e-storage system. The system will use Li-ion batteries (the exact manu 
and chemistry escapes me right now).

I don’t quite understand the relative lack of traction regarding Li for small 
scale remote/recreational applications. I understand a little about BMS, enough 
to be dangerous. So perhaps the biggest question I have is why NOT design-in a 
Li battery system as long as it come wrapped with a BSM? 
Any brands/technologies recommended?

Also thanks for the info on 36 cell vs. 60 cell PV modules. If I were to 
specify a system from scratch (and that is the direction I’m heading), I would 
go with 60 cell modules (even 72 cell modules) and a MPPT CC that can handle 
the voltage and current range.

And thanks for the recommendation on AC vs DC powered refrigerators. I don’t 
want to handle the service call!

Thanks to everyone for their input.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

From: William Dorsett
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:56 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers

Especially for this group of people, who are used to making do with resources 
as they come, there was a very interesting concept article in HomePower, Issue 
#186, July / August 2018, called DayLight Drive by Alexis Zeigler • Living 
Energy Farm, Louisa, Virginia.  
https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/mailbox-daylight-drive
 The concept is in minimizing the expense of battery storage by using sun… well 
“DayLight” as it happens. I think the concept is particularly relevant to 
situations like you are describing and in developing countries. But also more 
to us as we look to the role of storage in general. Thanks for the thoughts, 
Alexis.


Bill Dorsett
Flint Hills Renewable Energy & Efficiency Cooperative, Inc.
“Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe
1715 Leavenworth
Manhattan, KS  66502
www.fhreec.org

785/539-1956  Office 
785/564-2583  Cell
wmdors...@cox.net

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Peter Parrish
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 5:27 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers

We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid 
power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for 
homeless folks in the Ventura CA area.

The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three 
refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single 
occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem.

We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for 
the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 
Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of 
$2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And 
looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than 
$1.10/W. 

Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there 
might be other companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on 
other markets like developing countries.

Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line.

Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com


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[RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers

[Peter Parrish]

We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid 
power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for 
homeless folks in the Ventura CA area.

The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three 
refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single 
occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem.

We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for 
the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 
Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of 
$2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And 
looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than 
$1.10/W. 

Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there 
might be other companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on 
other markets like developing countries.

Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line.

Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

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[RE-wrenches] Fat Spaniel

[Peter Parrish]

I have a client with a Fat Spaniel box. They can't remember their user name and 
password. I did a little digging and I came to the conclusion that the Fat 
Spaniel product is no longer being sold, no longer being supported, and their 
cloud server has been taken down.
Am I right -- on any account?
- Peter 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
California Solar Engineering
1107 Fair Oaks, Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323)839-6108


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[RE-wrenches] GE GEPVp-055 Modules

[Peter Parrish]

I have been servicing this customer for over 12 years now, going through a 
various problems with the Fronius IG-5100 inverter. We never had to get a 
replacement but as I see in my files we did swap out a daughter board.

The system is comprised of three strings of 34 each GEPVp-055 modules. We have 
a fusible DC disco before feeding the inverter.

The problem is two-fold: low, fluctuating AC power and low, fluctuating DC 
string current.

Under operation: 10:30 AM; temperature underneath PV modules 26 deg C; all 
modules have identical orientation; Irr (normal to PV modules)=427 W/m2, (12 
deg pitch, bearing 267 deg)
Vdc=228V; Voc=326V
String #1: 2.54, 2.23, 2.66 A
String #2: 1.76, 1.80, 2.07, 1.50 A
String #3: 2.83, 2.96 A
Pac=1,174 W and fluctuating between 1,050 and 1,400

I checked the fuses on the input: 23 to 29 m-ohms, under load.

Since all three strings have fluctuating current, I suspect the inverter. But 
since string #2 is fluctuating much more, I worry about bad 
cell/j-box/DC-wiring.

I plan to gen up a ~80 ohm / 750 W load and check each of the strings at the 
disconnect.

So my question is has anyone heard of GEPVp-060 or -055 modules having 
problems? 

Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from installing Batteries.

[Peter Parrish]

Jason,

I’d like to read the .pdf you refer to if that would not violate a 
Non-Disclosure Agreement. I am on the California Solar & Storage Association 
(formerly CalSEIA) Storage Subcommittee.

Regards,

Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis / California Solar Engineering
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

From: Jason Andrade
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:02 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from 
installing Batteries.

Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted 
by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move 
where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system
This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read 
it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this?
My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 
doesn’t ? 
Jason Andrade 
West Coast Sustainables 

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen?

[Peter Parrish]

Ho Jay,

I’d be extremely careful.

First with your pricing, don’t forgive some of your legitimate costs. Add 
Shipping & Handling and taxes to all equipment purchases. Carefully estimate 
your labor costs, travel to Mexico, shipping across the border to Mexico. Are 
there any import costs? What will be other “costs of doing business”?

Second, you know what it costs to run your business. Add the appropriate 
overhead and general and administrative costs. Office staff and your salary; 
insurance; and other indirect costs. You might tell them what your indirect 
cost schedule is (e.g. 15% on PV panels, inverters,  batteries and any other 
hardware; 10% on wages and other fees), and if they don’t agree, decline to do 
business with them.

Third, I’d set up a progress payment schedule. Arrange for payment in in $US 
bank draft (be careful of bogus bank drafts) or other form of payment you are 
confortable with.

Fourth, does your existing insurance policies cover equipment and auto theft 
(in Mexico)? Get a rider if it doesn’t.

Fifth, don’t provide them with any design information prior to signing a 
contract. 

Peter T. Parrish
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

From: jay
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:44 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen?


HI All,

I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice it as 
follows.  They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, but that 
doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, and it sure 
seems that could happen.

I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to get a 
bit of a reality check.  
As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t too 
common for me.


1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item)
2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept

Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big:  
16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc.

Thanks

jay

peltz power


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[RE-wrenches] Buried Conductors

[Peter Parrish]

I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel, and upgrading to 
PV and Smart Energy Storage. The house was broken down to floor joists, open 
studded walls and open roof rafters.

 

The client wanted a 8 kW/16 kWh Smart Energy Storage system and a 10 kW-ac PV 
system. The Main panel, the Critical Load sub-panel, the Energy Storage system 
and the PV inverters will all be either in a detached garage or hung on the 
west facing exterior wall of the detached garage.

 

We have been given a number of 1-1/2” PVC conduits, buried a minimum of 18”,  
that run between the main house and the detached garage, so we have to convey 
2/3rds of the PV source circuits and all of the critical load branch circuits 
using this conduit. This raises a number of questions/confirmations:

 

(1)We cannot mix PV source circuits and critical load branch circuits in 
the same conduit. Pretty obvious.



(2)What ambient temperature should I use in my ampacity calculations? I 
assumed something less than 30°C, such as 20°C. But I read somewhere that one 
has to be careful when the conduit exists the ground, in that one has only 18” 
of conduit above ground before one has to use the full maximum ambient 
temperature which in our case is 45°. The argument says that for the first 18”, 
the portion of the copper conductors in the ground will cool the portion of the 
conductors above ground via thermal conduction. I can’t find any citation to 
confirm this argument. Does anyone have any sources of information on the 
subject? Even if there is a sound engineering basis for the argument, soon 
after exiting the ground, one would need a vault to splice in a higher ampacity 
conductors and continue on to either the critical load sub-panel or the 
inverters, you have to calculate the ampacity at 45°C. These buried conduit 
runs are approximately 50 feet in length.



(3)One end of the conduit run is supposed to come out of the ground inside 
the building envelope, so we could derate using 30°C or so for air conditioned 
space. We cannot count on the garage being air conditioned however.



(4)Can we use THHN as opposed to THWN-2? I am assuming the forces of nature 
or human stupidity will eventually cause the PVC to crack and the extra expense 
of THWN-2 (or another wet rated 90°C  conductor) will be a better choice.

 

This job is the same one where the electrician claimed that neutrals on a 120V 
branch circuit don’t count as current carry conductors in conduit for the 
purposes of de-rating ampacity. He’s gone, but his replacement may not be any 
more careful in his ampacity calculations.

 

Faithfully yours,

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

NABCEP™ Solar Professional #031806-26

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters

[Peter Parrish]

I am late to this thread. But why not use a SMA Tri-Power or the equivalent 
inverter from Solectria and others? The two mentioned are great inverters and 
tested in the field for at least 18 months now.

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Howard Arey
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:11 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters

 

Consider using three single phase inverters putting out 208; one inverter for 
AB leg, AC leg, and BC leg.

 

 

Howard “Scot” Arey

254-300-1228

scot.a...@solarcentex.com

 

Solar Centex Logo - No Back.png 10 percent resize

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Carl Adams
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 1:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 20 kW 208/120 inverters

 

Hello Wrenches,

 

I am looking of a recommendation on a 208 3 phase inverter in the 20 kW range.  
Any suggestions?

 

Carl Adams

SunRock Solar

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

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Re: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection

[Peter Parrish]

I believe Milbank is one of the manus that sells a meter enclosure that is
listed for supply-side connections. I bought an enclosure a while ago that
was not only listed but came with an extra pair of lugs. I will research the
matter and confirm Milbank or provide the correct manu.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
President, SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
Suite 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter...@pobox.com

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of jay
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 2:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] supply side connection

Has any one used the Milbank tap connectors?
Or maybe get them approved by the utility?

It would require meter removal, but seems to be a good alternative to a
piercing connector.

thanks

jay

Peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC

[Peter Parrish]

William,

 

I agree about the subpanel in the house situation. The customer is a bit 
eccentric, and I have tried to bring him around. And I have explained to him 
that his approach will be more expensive. He doesn’t care. In the end, there is 
no safety risk. So I’ll plan for 4 branch circuits per conduit and take the 
0.70 derating.

 

- Peter  

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of William Miller
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:25 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC

 

Peter:

 

I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house.  Running branch 
circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or practical.

 

Voltage drop:  1% VD is a choice, not a requirement.  Code requires 3% on 
feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits.   I like to use 1% for average 
voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy.  I am more lax on 
AC circuits.  If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will occur only 
occasionally, when peak solar is achieved.  Analyze your load or charging 
profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for average use.  
Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately 50% of the energy is 
under the bell curve.

 

Neutrals are current carrying.  Try powering a 120VAC load without one and you 
will see what I mean.

 

William Miller

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/> 
805-438-5600

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Peter Parrish
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC

 

I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to 
his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire 
in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for 
backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and 
batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the 
house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads.

 

The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given 
seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity 
and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the 
critical loads.

 

So I have two questions:

 

(1)   Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits?

(2)   Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, 
but the electrician stated quite emphatically that  they didn’t. I thought that 
the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was 
not taken into account.

 

Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation?

 

-      Peter Parrish

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

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[RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC

[Peter Parrish]

I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to
his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a
wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of
storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical
load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about
45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical
loads.

 

The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been
given seven (7) 1-1/2" PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill,
ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that
represent the critical loads.

 

So I have two questions:

 

(1)Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits?

(2)Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they
do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that  they didn't. I
thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses
and phasing was not taken into account.

 

Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation?

 

-      Peter Parrish

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

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[RE-wrenches] Successor to SunEye 210?

[Peter Parrish]

Can’t seem to find a SunEye product on the Solmetric website. Is it tucked away 
on the Vivent site or somewhere else hard-to-find?

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4

[Peter Parrish]

Let me wade in here leading with my chin.

(1) "Li batteries" come in a bewildering number of chemistries. Try this on for 
size: LiCoO2 (LCO), LiNiCoAlOx (NCA), LiMn2O4 (LMO), LiFePO4 (LFP), LiNiMnCoO2 
(NMC), LiFeMnPO4, etc. 

(2) Each chemistry has its own virtues and vices: voltage per cell, cycle life 
vs. DOD, operating temperature, specific energy (kWh/kg), specific power (e.g. 
1C 35C), safety and thermal runaway.

(3) Because of the high energy density, and high number of cycles down to 80% 
DOD (compared to NiCd, NiMHi and of course Pb), the early adopters were 
cordless drills laptops, cell phones and (yes) battery pack for commercial 
jets. All of these are mobile applications (keep this in mind for later).

(4) There were a number of highly publicized reports of fires -- car, 787 
Dreamliner, laptops and today hoverboards. The Li batteries in the 787 and the 
laptop fires were LiCO2. Let's forget about the hoverboard fires for now. LiCO2 
has the lowest (max) operating temperature 150 deg-C. Apparently it was 
relatively easy to get the battery temperature up to that value, if there was 
inadequate forced air cooling or lack of sophisticated conduction cooling 
(including pumped liquid coolant)

(5) And, I think we are all aware of this, some of the reports of fires caused 
by Li batteries were BOGUS sensationalized accounts. My (least) favorite 
account was the one where a pair vehicles parked in a carport/garage were 
destroyed by a fire. One of the vehicles was a hybrid, the other was a truck 
(converted to batteries and electric propulsion by a DIYer). The initial 
account blamed the hybrid for the fire. Later it was found out the cause of the 
fire was a branch circuit the same DIYer brought out the garage for his L2 
charger. I believe he undersized his wire and oversized his breaker.

(6) Now come the hoverboards. Many of them have been rushed to the consumer 
market without good engineering. In many products, it is difficult if not 
impossible to trace the manu for the batteries or the charging system. There 
have been reports of bogus UL stickers. Basically, STAY AWAY FROM HOVERBOARDS!

(7) For stationary application -- off-grid, grid-tied battery back-up and 
grid-tied with load shifting applications -- energy density is not so critical, 
and safety IMHO is paramount. Guess what? LiFePO4 (and LiFeMnPO4 I believe) 
have much higher (max) operating temperatures, something on the order of 270 
deg-C And about 2/3rd's the energy density of LiCO2 (105 kWh/kg vs. 170 
kWh/kg). Guess where Pd-acid fits in here? ~40 kWh/kg. Actually, an AGM that I 
have had success with -- the SunXtender PVX2580 -- weighs in at 258 Ah (24 hour 
rate), 12 V nominal and 72 kg for 43 kWh/kg. Of course specific power (kW/kg) 
and self-discharge rates are also important and the LiFePO4 fairs very well by 
comparison with Pb-acid.

(8) Cost? I think I paid something on the order of $500 for the PVX2580 (it's 
been a while) so that’s $6.20/Wh. Of course you could get a flooded cell 
Pb-acid battery for less -- you do the math. I have not yet purchased a 
comparable Li battery, but Elon Musk says his Powerwalls will sell for $2.30 to 
$2.90/Wh. We'll see. Despite Musk's slick presentation, the Powerwall is not 
generally available. I have heard numbers on the order of $5-7/Wh for other Li 
batteries. The problem I have encountered is that most of the vendors I have 
contacted are interested in selling an integrated system with battery 
management and an inverter. I am trying to reach Larry at Starlight Solar to 
get pricing on his 100 Ah nom 12 V lithium batteries, which I understand is 
LiFeMnPO4, which I hope has the same physical and electrical characteristics as 
LiFePO4.

(9) Battery management. Li batteries, depending on the chemistry, have very 
precise charging and discharging requirements and esp the LiCoO2 batteries. I 
hope I'm not making undue assumptions, but the LiFe(Mn)PO4 is much more robust 
and may be compatible with programmable Pb-acid charge controllers (with 
appropriate adjustments).

(10) Based on the application I am currently work on -- stationary, indoor, 
grid-tied, daily charge/discharge cycles for load management -- the LiFePO4 has 
superior electrical and mechanical characteristics, and the life-cycle cost is 
MUCH LESS than even AGM batteries.

It's a new world out there. Tech support, reliability, warranties, will all get 
sorted out in time. Hopefully our early adopters will be handsomely rewarded 
for their efforts.

As I said, my application is a not quite mainstream (yet), and I will probably 
end up buying an integrated system.  
 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
President, SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
Suite 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
(323) 839-6108
peter...@pobox.com


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of ma...@berkeleysolar.com
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 12:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries

[Peter Parrish]

I know a fair amount about Sonnen. I thought their main thrust was 480 V/3P & 
LiFePO4 batteries, and systems for peak demand clipping. Do they have a 
“residential” offering?

 

I am looking at 240/120 V split phase. If I can TOU load shifting and battery 
back-up, that will do it for this customer. 

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Dan Fink
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:38 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Availability of Powerwall Batteries

 

Have you looked into SonnenBatterie? To which a number of Tesla execs have 
recently bailed out to work for?

As always with all these new hypey Lithium storage systems, their presentations 
had everything except the information that real Wrenches actually need. But I 
was able to glean the info that Sonnenbatterie works with existing 48VDC 
nominal equipment and input, and 120/240VAC inputs also. 

Following all the info coming out, but i'd rather let someone else be the 
guinea pig. And, of course, big  per kWh of storage.




Dan Fink

Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute

IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 

~ PV Installation Professional

~ Small Wind Installer

Executive Director, Buckville Energy

NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™
  970.672.4342


 

 

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Peter Parrish <peter.parr...@calsolareng.com> 
wrote:

I have a residential client who wants a grid tied PV system with battery 
backup. The client wants everything to be top of the line: Sunpower modules. 
Tesla Powerwall batteries. 

 

Unfortunately, I have been spending time recently researching "smart energy 
storage" for commercial applications focusing on peak demand shaving. These are 
480 V 3-phase systems with 30 kW inverters and 48+ kWh Lithium technology 
batteries. I think I am beginning to understand the performance trade-offs and 
how these systems can complement PV to reduce demand charges as well as usage 
charges.

 

My problem, is that I have not spent as much time researching the newer 
residential GTBB offerings. I have studied the Juicebox offering – Schneider 
XW5548 plus NMC Lithium batteries -- but that’s about it. I don’t know the 
default vendor for the NMC batteries and if not Powerwall, could Powerwall be a 
replacement? 

 

Otherwise, does anyone know how to access the Powerwall offerings?  Also has 
anyone had success getting a rebate in CA through the SGIP/AES program? I know 
to qualify for SGIP one needs to demonstrate load shifting as opposed to (or in 
addition to BB).   

 

There seems to be an offering from Solaredge (Storedge), but it is not clear 
their optimizers work with the 96 cell Sunpower X21-345, for example.

 

I am convinced that smart storage will become more important over time, and I 
would like to use this customer to “get smart”, and prepare for future business 
of this sort.

 

Any practical knowledge would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to exchange 
information on commercial demand management offerings.

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Ste. 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108 <tel:%28323%29%20839-6108> 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #031806-26

peter.parr...@solargnosis.com

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter

[Peter Parrish]

My 2 centavos. Stick with them. I prefer their approach over SMA.

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Kirk Herander
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery-based inverter

 

Hello,

Can anyone recommend a good battery-based inverter for grid-intertie? I need
both generator and utility inputs, 120 or 240 output. I have experience with
the OB Radian series but don't know what else is out there. Thanks.

 

Kirk Herander

Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC 

Celebrating our 25th Anniversary 1991-2016

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM  2003 Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

 

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?

[Peter Parrish]

I once needed some tech support regarding setting up OpticRE at the customer 
site; and fairly early in the AM I called in and I got them to “try to” call me 
back at 11:00 AM the same day -- and they did!

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback customer service?

 

Hi Peter,

 

I only had the option to leave a message and after about 1 hour on hold I did 
so. That was a week ago. I had not heard of calling at a specific hour. Is this 
something they suggest? Where did you hear of this 0700 calling time?

 

Larry

 

 

On Dec 8, 2015, at 3:00 PM, Peter Parrish <peter.parr...@calsolareng.com> wrote:

 

Phil Undercuffler has the title of Chief Technologist, Product Development – or 
something to that effect. I suggest not trying to reach him with 
run-of-the-mill issues, but if your want to engage him about future product 
development, or to get confirmation about utility issues, NEM 2.0, industry 
trends, etc. he is the best person at Outback Power to talk to. If you want to 
know more about how to program the Radian Series, he could point you to the 
right person.

 

I think a lot of problems with Outback can be traced to their off-grid history…

 

Has anyone tried to make a telecon appointment with Outback Tech Support: call 
them at 0700 h PT and ask to get a call back at a certain time later in the day?

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Primo

[Peter Parrish]

I have a client who is on their third IG5100. The latest replacement was due to 
bad fan (one of them). The location for this inverter is in the shade with lots 
of air circulation. Does anyone know what’s wrong with this model?

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of William Miller
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 9:19 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Primo

 

Friends:

 

I am trying to help a client with a Fronius IG5100 that has failed three times. 
 He has been offered an upgrade to a Primo inverter.  I looked at the specs for 
the Primo and it shows an input range of 80 to 1,000 VDC!  This seems too wide 
to be true.

 

Does anyone have any experience with this inverter? How long have you had them 
installed?  Do they seem solid?  What voltage ranges are you running at?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

William Miller

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com  
805-438-5600

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Peter Parrish]

One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter, is to 
install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be “double 
lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have accommodation for a 
solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and disconnect, but the entire 
arrangement is code compliant. 

 

Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t remember 
the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model if you want.

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of gary easton
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

 

Hello Wrenches,

What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A service? 


 

-- 

Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power

Stewart, Ohio 45778
NABCEP Certified Solar PV   
 
T: 740-277-8498

 www.arp-solar.com

 


“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you 
win.”


~Ghandi

 

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[RE-wrenches] Fronius Warranty Problems

[Peter Parrish]

I have recently had a spate of warranty (and out of warranty) calls from 
customers with Fronius IG inverters (from the 2000 to the 5100). In working the 
problem, Fronius has had fairly good technical support (initially) BUT things 
have gone downhill from there. They have for example, sent a GFDI2 
daughterboard without an RMA label and they have then been incapable of sending 
me an RMA label  so that I can return the bad board. I am on my fifth request 
to have them do so. They have been 120 days (or more) in paying the 
reimbursement from warranty work.

 

To add insult to injury, they just took $178.00 from our bank account for 
failure to return the daughterboard!

 

Has anyone else found a deteriorating situation at Fronius and has anyone found 
at responsible department there that can put the train car back on the track?

 

We can take the matter over to the bitching list if the matter warrants 
on-going discussion.

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

NABCEP PV Professional 031806-26

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate

[Peter Parrish]

I too am interested in LiFeP batteries. I think we need some more
information on charge/discharge cycles. I've bits and pieces, but there must
be some solid data from Panasonic or one of the other LiFeP manufacturers.
Such as, 

 

Recommended charge cycle

Maximum discharge rate

Low voltage disconnect

 

Also I expect all of the CC manufacturers are thinking about LiFeP or
similar Li technology. Maybe if one of us has a friend at Outback Power,
Morningstar, Midnite Solar, we could find out more.

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Daniel Young
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 2:29 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate

 

Hello Wrenches,

 

I've been trying to think through how I can mate some lower cost charge
controllers (prostar 15A 24v PWM units, or the new 30A Midnite solar Brat)
to some 8s LiFePo battery banks.

 

As I understand it, lithium batteries meant to be charged to around 3.65V
per cell (29.2V for the 8 cell bank) and then the charge is terminated, not
put into a float mode.

 

Assuming I use a PCM to protect the batteries, so that each cell has a
balancing function and also over/under voltage protection. Would the battery
bank accept a simple charge controller that in essence, charged to
3.65V/cell, then backed down to a float voltage that was lower than it's
resting voltage, say 3.3V/cell. In theory at that voltage, there would be
little/no charge current going to the batteries. Or would the cells still
take in a small amount of power at these voltages and start to
overcharge/degrade?

 

Again, I'd plan to have a full PCM circuit protecting cells and balancing
them, but I'd like to have a good way to charge the batteries with solar
(right now I'm shooting for using a 72cell module and 24V nominal LiFePo
battery stack, so maybe there is another way that I can use, but I've not
decided to buy any batteries I am ok with accidently blowing up if I'm
wrongJ).

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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[RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof

[Peter Parrish]

I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote:



“The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar 
PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the 
north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than 
optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus 
designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall 
kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. 
This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users 
perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal 
orientations were never seriously considered.”

 

I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions 
him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? 
Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. 

 

-  Peter 

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

 

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[RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation

[Peter Parrish]

I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number
of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim
that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation
in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV
modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module
manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing
data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought
the number was actually decreasing over time.

The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes
any difference).

Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina
modules in particular?

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
President, SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351
South Pasadena, CA 91030
NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26
(323) 839-6108
peter...@pobox.com



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[RE-wrenches] Schematic for AES Inverter

[Peter Parrish]

Wrenches,

 

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to remove four of the old Advanced Energy 
Systems GC-1000-SA inverters and replace with a single Fronius IG-5000. If I 
remember correctly, the PV modules were SP-65s!

 

I spend a lot of time teaching PV theory, sales and installation courses in the 
Los Angeles area, now, and I was wondering if my students could tear down these 
GC-1000s, and with the aid of component-level (part level) schematic, make 
sense of how the functionality of a grid tied, sine wave, MPP inverter is 
realized in a concrete example.

 

Does anyone have an idea as to how I could get a schematic of the GC-1000? As I 
remember, Siemens Solar acquired the AES assets.

 

Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

NABCEP™ Certified PV Professional #031806-26

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting height

 

As I remember, anything that needs to be inspected or manually operated needs 
to be between 6'-6 and 2'-6. 

  

- Peter 

  

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. 

SolarGnosis 

  

On October 22, 2014 at 12:28 AM Bob-O Schultze bo...@electronconnection.com 
wrote: 

If it has some sort of switch or CB, the top of the handle cannot be higher 
than 6'7. As to the lower limit, I think that would depend on the location. In 
a garage, for example, the AHJ could make a case for 18 as that's where 
outlets generally live, but there is no lower limit that I'm aware of. 

 

On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:02 PM, frenergy wrote: 

 

Wrenches, 

  

I can't seem to find a reference to the heights allowable for inverter 
installs, either minimum or maximum (need both).  For that matter, AC 
combiners, DC discos, any switchgear related to the inverter(s). 

  

Any help appreciated. 

  

Bill 

Feather River Solar Electric 

solar powered since 1982 

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[RE-wrenches] BP Solar Point of Contact

[Peter Parrish]

Has anyone a point of contact at BP Solar to discuss warranty issues of
SX170Bs installed in January 2006?

Thanks

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. 
President, SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
South Pasadena, CA 91107
Ph. (323) 839-6108, Fax. (323) 258-8827

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Renogy 100W Bendable Mono Module?

[Peter Parrish]

You can order direct from Renogy in California (Chino or Chino Hills). -
Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. 
President, SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
South Pasadena, CA 91107
Ph. (323) 839-6108, Fax. (323) 258-8827

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Tump
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:36 PM
To: p...@insoltechsolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Renogy 100W Bendable Mono Module?

try WEST Marine these has been ~ for a while. some of the early ones were
made in Germany. 
On Jun 10, 2014, at 3:09 PM, Phil Lawes wrote:


These modules are made in China, but then what isn’t these days? I too am
looking into using them for certain applications and can’t wait to get my
hands on one so I can check it out. They told me that they were out of stock
and that they should have some more in by the end of the month.
Phil
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 10:20 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Renogy 100W Bendable Mono Module?
 
Wrenches,
 
Does anyone have any experience, or thoughts, with/on this company/product?
 
It was recently brought to my attention. A 100W monocrystalline cell
bendable (to 30 degrees) module. Sounds counter intuitive to have mono cell
and bendable in the same module to me. My son is thinking of using it for
dry camping with his pickup truck. His small system would have 1 VRLA
battery w CC and this panel temporarily lying on the roof of his camper
shell.
 
Worth a try for $200?
 
 The Renogy bendable solar panel uses advanced technology backed by
contact Sunpower Monocrystalline solar cells that have been laminated into a
flexible plastic sheet. The result is a solar panel that is far more durable
than traditional glass and aluminum models, with twice the efficiency
(approx. 20%) of flexible thin film solar panels. With these advanced solar
cells, you will get greater power efficiency even though the panel is no
larger than a traditional model. The plastic back sheet can be curved to a
maximum 30 degree arc and mounted on an RV, boat, cabin, tent, or any other
irregular surface. The flexibility of this panel also makes it ideal for
storage in tight spaces or crowded areas that are typically off limits for
traditional glass and aluminum models. While this solar panel packs 100W of
power, it only weighs a mere 3lbs, making it easier to transport, hang, and
remove. The laminate coating on the exterior of the panel makes it
impervious to saltwater splashing, rain, and other weather elements. While
this panel may be damaged by sharp objects or scraping, there is no risk of
shattering or cracking.
 
http://www.renogy-store.com/100watts-bendable-panel-p/rng-100db.htm 
 
Thanks,
 
David Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
802-888-7194
 
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t...@swnl.net               www.SWNL.net
            Solarwinds Northernlights   
       Serving Mid Coast Maine  Northern California
                         207-832-7574   Cl.
610-517-8401  
                              Blair TUMP May
                 MAINE'S CHARTER 
      NABCEP    Certified PV Installer 
   
        MAINE'S CHARTER 
  Trace Xantrex Certified Dealer / Installer




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[RE-wrenches] California State Fire Marshal's Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guidelines

[Peter Parrish]

The most recent copy of the Solar Photovoltaic Installation Guideline that
I have is the April 22, 2008 draft. Has this been released in final form or
incorporated into some other publication?

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. 
President SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
South Pasadena, CA 91107
Ph. (323) 839-6108, Fax. (323) 258-8827

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PID

[Peter Parrish]

Has anyone any direct experience with the SMA PV Offset Box? Which inverter
did you use it with and with which PV modules? Any help would be appreciated
as we may have problems in the field.

Has SunPower issued anything regarding their product line as to allowing
negative grounding. It would be great to be able to look at a specific
SunPower PV module + Serial Number and figure out whether it can operate
with negative grounding w/o PID.

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President
SolarGnosis
1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
South Pasadena, CA 91107
Ph. (323) 839-6108, Fax. (323) 258-8827


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 3:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PID

Bill,

Thank you. That is exactly the data needed.

Drake


 Drake

 PID is caused by many factors, the capacitive nature of a solar panel 
 and materials ( cheaper, thinner encapsulants and backsheets and cell 
 surface treatments to get more efficiency to name a few).  The new 
 marketing battle cry for module manufacturers material vendors is PID 
 resistant materials, but we all have to take marketing claims with a 
 grain of salt until we get independent data to show that it is true!

 A simplified explanation of PID is the build up of charged ions in a 
 module that cause a significant reduction in voltage output, dominated 
 by a complex interaction between materials within the module.  With a 
 negative grounded system there is a path to bleed off this charge .  
 The nature of SunPowers module when negative grounding was used 
 initially was the charge build up was not bleed off the negative side, 
 but needed to bleed off the
 positive side.   This resulted in significantly reduced output, which is
 irreversible after a period of time.  These were the first cases of 
 PID in the US.  That is why they solved it by specifying positive 
 grounding to bleed off this charge properly.  A transformerless 
 inverter does not ( and can not with fatal results) have a bond 
 between negative and ground, so it cannot bleed off this excess 
 charge.  There may have already been PID, but we never noticed with 
 transformer based inverters and 600 VDC systems.  We are seeing it 
 predominately in Europe now where 1000VDC transformerless inverters are
more common, combined with cheaper modules ( ie materials) .

 I am surprised that SMA knows nothing about this since I understand 
 they have a field fix  to add a switch, controlled by the inverter 
 that allows a bond connection between PV negative and ground when the 
 inverter shuts down over night to bleed off this excess charge and the 
 switch is opened at sunrise by the inverter before it makes it 's 
 checks ( ground - negative isolation and megging of the array for 
 faults before startup).  Maybe this is only available so far in 
 Europe?

 see http://files.sma.de/dl/7418/PID-TI-UEN113410.pdf
 and http://files.sma.de/dl/7418/PID-PVOBox-TI-en-10.pdf

 It can be a serious problem once it has reached an irreversible point!
  Some modules seem to be more susceptible to this issue. but it is not 
 easy to find which ones to avoid!

 Bill


 On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Drake 
 drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
 wrote:

  Hello Wrenches,

 Attached is an article from Home Power that came in my email. It says 
 module degradation is increased by PID (Potential Induced 
 Degradation) by the use of transformerless inverters.  It says power 
 degradation can occur over days or weeks and cause a 10% to 60% loss 
 of efficiency.

 I called Power One and SMA and their tech support people have not had 
 any reports of problems. Is this something we need to be concerned 
 about?


 Thanks,


 Drake


 Drake Chamberlin





 *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP 
 Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 740-448-7328 
 *http://athens-electric.com/


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 --
 Bill Hoffer
 161 SE Fourth Ave
 P.O. Box 1823
 White Salmon, WA 98672
 suneng...@gmail.com bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar product whole sellers with good reputation

[Peter Parrish]

Dear William,

I too had a very difficult interaction with DC-Power Systems a couple of
years ago -- before they merged (whatever) with Solar Depot. Since they are
now one and the same company, and it looks like the DC-Power Systems folks
(and their approach to doing business) are asserting control over the
combined entity, I would like to communicate with you off-line.

Please feel free to contact me at peter...@pobox.com and I will do my best
to provide you with a recitation of my travails and their resolution. It
might help you in your present predicament.

Regards,

-Peter 


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 4:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar product whole sellers with good reputation

Friends:

Solar Depot is trying to collect $14,000 from me and I have never ordered a
thing from them. They have refused to acknowledge they have made a mistake. 
They even tried to attach my bond.  I do not recommend anyone do business
with them or DC Power Systems. 

Beware of the big wholesalers.

William



At 10:03 AM 4/24/2012, Chris Daum wrote:

I'm a big fan of Sunwize, but then my rep is really good; don't know if
everyone has a good rep.  Hitney is also good.
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU3000i pranks

[Peter Parrish]

This dialog is pretty informative, and I think that it boils down to
distortion and probably harmonic distortion. There are in addition to
scopes, specialized harmonic distortion analyzers. I think I should be
able to lay my hands on one.

I want to pull the trigger on this purchase. I think the eu2000 is the unit
for me in terms of power output -- I am assuming that the steady state
output is less say 1,600 W.

Does Honda spec distortion? 

Does the eu2000 have an autostart feature/option?

Any other features/options that I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance for the information

- Peter
 
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 6:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU3000i pranks

Already been caught on this one. The inverter/charger is a Magnum MME
with a Honda 3000i.
Adding a load to the Honda drops the Hz reading in half, but still
some high harmonic of the real reading, and the Magnum still rejects
it.

Glad I didn't spend the $900 on the new honda module now! Didn't take
the genny to the dealer because the only way to get it there is by
helicopter.

Expensive lesson here too; our solution was for the client to purchase
another honda eu2000i for that site with the Magnum MME and bring the
3000i to a different camp that has no inverter/charger by helicopter
long line sling load. And hey, same price for the new 2000i as for the
new 3000i module that probably wouldn't have worked!!!

-- 
Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 (voicemail)


On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Jeff Oldham starpowe...@juno.com wrote:
 I recently had a costly lesson with one of these usually sweet gensets -
 With a good and fast meter like my Fluke 189 you can get wacky Hz
readings.
 I had one that the inverter would not accept. checked V and Hz and saw the
 Hz at over 1000. Talked to Honda service center and they confirmed that
the
 genny's inverter module contained ALL control parts and if there is a V,
Hz,
 low power or constant overload it will be this single module. So, $900
later
 and a quick and easy swap, the problem did not go away and the Hz was
still
 crazy. Talked to service center again, they confirmed that it was the
module
 but could not believe that the new one was defective and asked if I could
 bring it to them. I did and their meters read 60Hz, all 3 of the meters
they
 had in the shop, put mine on it and over 1000Hz again. Plugged my leads
into
 the shop utility power and it was 60Hz and so it was on a Honda 1000 and
 2000, they had another EU3000i in the shop and again I got over 1000. OK,
a
 call into Honda now this time we got a rep that saw this before and said
it
 is normal for this with a very fast meter and ONLY on the EU3000i no other
 genny they make! Took it back, put the old inverter module back in and
still
 no connection to inverter. Now (perhaps before?) I check his inverter
 settings, the AC input current was set too high!! UUuurrggg, never had my
 trusty Fluke live up to its brand name before. So, stuck with an inverter
 module for a EU3000i with 5 mins. on it, anyone need one contact me off
 list.

 Don't get caught in this one!


 From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative
 SOLutions
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[RE-wrenches] Small Generator

[Peter Parrish]

I have an off-grid demo consisting of 5 SX3170's, a Blue Sky CC, 6 kWh of 24
V batteries and a Xantrex ProSine 1000 inverter. 

I would like to add a ~750 W - ~1000 W genny that can be interfaced with the
ProSine.

Any ideas?

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., Chair
Alternative Energy and Transportation Technology Department
College of the Canyons
peter.parr...@canyons.edu 
Ph 661-362-3888, Mobile 323-839-6108

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Powered PA system

[Peter Parrish]

I have designed and built one and have used it for many years: 6 kWh (gross
battery storage), 24 Vdc and 120 Vac at 1 kW ea; 850 W STC PV modules. PV
rack on casters and BoS in 8 cu-ft box on casters as well. One off design.
It keeps on ticking while taking a licking.
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 6:33 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Powered PA system
 
I have an inquiry about a portable, solar powered public address system.
Are these available ready made?   Has anyone made one?

Thank you,

Drake 


Drake Chamberlin 
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GNB Battery Contact

[Peter Parrish]

Hi Bob,

90% of the time we would be running around a high bay warehouse, with a
concrete floor. Having said that, 10% of the time we would like to take it
out into the misty morning even drizzle to move pallets INTO the warehouse


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of bob ellison
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 2:05 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GNB Battery Contact

Peter,
Is this for use outside on terrain (like at a job site getting supplies to a
roof) or inside on a concrete floor? It makes a difference on the tires and
suspension as well as the rating.

Bob Ellison

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 12:08 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GNB Battery Contact

We are looking for a battery-powered fork lift: total vertical lift 22’ and
load (typically on pallets) 350 to 700 lbs. We will of course need a solar
powered charging station, but that can be designed once we have a good fork
lift identified.

Has anyone actually purchased a battery-powered forklift or could direct me
to someone who has?

- Peter


Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 

 
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Anti-Islanding Explanantion

[Peter Parrish]

Thanks Marv. 

For the purposes of explaining anti-islanding to non-technical people, I
think the default frequency range of 59.3Hz to 60.5Hz, and the default
voltage range is 88% to 110% of nominal is good for starters especially in
the perspective of the initial start-up of a gird-tied PV system.

Just so I am completely sure of what you are saying: For a split phase
120/240 Vac, 60 Hz system...the PV system would connect to the grid if after
5 minutes the 

The voltage window would be 105.6 Vac to 132 Vac, L1-N and L2-N.
And the frequency window would be 59.3 Hz to 60.5 Hz.

- Peter


 
 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marv Dargatz
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 11:11 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Anti-Islanding Explanantion

Wrenches,

I feel compelled to reply here, as I have personally performed all of these
tests and listed several dozen inverters over the last 10 years.

The Utility-Interactive marking on listed inverters means that they meet
all of the Utility Protective Function requirements as outlined in
IEEE1547.0, and have been tested in accordance with the procedures detailed
in IEEE1547.1.  Most of the functions have a threshold value and a response
time associated with them.

The Utility Protective Functions include:

Temperature stability
Abnormal voltage
Abnormal frequency
Synchronization
Interconnection Integrity
DC injection
Unintentional Islanding
Reverse Power
Open Phase
Reconnect after abnormal condition disconnect
Harmonics
Flicker

All of these tests must be performed using equipment that meets certain
accuracy requirements, and includes considerations for manufacturer's
stated accuracy of these functions.

In addition, there are utility related performance criteria in UL1741.  For
instance, during abnormal condition tests, the maximum fault current and
duration must be quantified and published as a rating.

Just to clarify some of what Peter wrote, the default frequency range is
59.3Hz to 60.5Hz, and the default voltage range is 88% to 110% of nominal.
The voltage must be measured from line to neutral if a neutral is present in
the connection (i.e. a Y transformer connection).  In addition, there are
outer boundaries that require faster trip times.

Bottom line is, if the inverter has a listing mark on it (UL, CSA, ETL, TUV,
etc) and is marked Utility-Interactive there should be little or no
question as to its' suitability for interconnection.

Hope this helps.


See ya!

Marv
Director of Technology and Support, North America
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
Tech Support Mobile:  +530.798.6770
Mobile: +530.392.0356


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
Walters
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 10:44 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Anti-Islanding Explanantion

If you wouldn't mind Peter, I'd like to see this discussion stay on the
list.
I'd be interested to learn more about the actual anti-islanding features of
inverters.
What you've described seems to just cover the voltage and frequency windows
that the inverter will grid tie to.
I was always under the impression (perhaps false) that there were additional
software controls to prevent anti-islanding to another inverter.
Bill Brooks seems to know more about UL1741 test procedures.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Jul 19, 2011, at 10:04 AM, Peter Parrish wrote:

 I need to give a group of California educators the simplified
 explanation of inverter anti-islanding. I know the full details are
 quite complicated and have evolved a bit over the past few years, but
 would the following be an acceptable short explanation?

 *** Please contact me off-list with comments  edits. Thanks. ***

 This is an excerpt from a longer discussion about designing and
 installing grid-tied Inverter anti-islanding is a requirement of the
 NEC and the Underwriter's Laboratory test procedures. A somewhat
 over-simplified version of anti-islanding says that if the grid
 voltage goes out of the range of 216 to 264 Vac or if the grid
 frequency goes out of the range 59.9 to 60.1 Hz, the inverter must
 shut down within one cycle (1/60th of a second). Once in this shutdown
 mode, the grid must come back into compliance (both frequency and
 voltage) for 5 continuous minutes before the inverter may turn on again.
 This is pretty ho-hum. However, two of our laboratory sessions
 involve building a real, grid-connected PV system. So when our
 students go to turn on their system for the first time, they get to
 experience

[RE-wrenches] Anti-Islanding Explanantion

[Peter Parrish]

I need to give a group of California educators the simplified explanation of
inverter anti-islanding. I know the full details are quite complicated and
have evolved a bit over the past few years, but would the following be an
acceptable short explanation?

*** Please contact me off-list with comments  edits. Thanks. ***

This is an excerpt from a longer discussion about designing and installing
grid-tied 
Inverter anti-islanding is a requirement of the NEC and the Underwriter’s
Laboratory test procedures. A somewhat over-simplified version of
“anti-islanding” says that if the grid voltage goes out of the range of 216
to 264 Vac or if the grid frequency goes out of the range 59.9 to 60.1 Hz,
the inverter must shut down within one cycle (1/60th of a second). Once in
this shutdown mode, the grid must come back into compliance (both frequency
and voltage) for 5 continuous minutes before the inverter may turn on again.
This is pretty “ho-hum”. However, two of our laboratory sessions involve
building a real, grid-connected PV system. So when our students go to turn
on their system for the first time, they get to experience the
“anti-islanding” function first hand.
  
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] OSHA Certification?

[Peter Parrish]

I came late to this discussion, but one can take the course on-line for $50.
IMHO it is worth having one member of each install crew take the course.

- Peter


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison

[Peter Parrish]

Fewer number of strings the better. Go with plan A. Why 13 (and not 12) of
the Rolls if I may ask?


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Irwin
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:50 PM
To: Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison

Hello Esteemed Battery Gurus,

Which of the following do you believe is the better 24 V battery bank?

A) 13 - Rolls 2-YS-31 2430 AH @ 20 HR (one string) 

or 

B) 9 -  Rolls 8-CS-25P 820 AH @ 20 HR (3 strings of 3)

Thank you in advance for your input!


Wayne Irwin, EE
Director of Engineering
Pure Energy Solar International Inc. 
State Licensed Solar Contractor
License # CVC56695 
wa...@pureenergysolar.com 
http://pureenergysolar.com 
352 377-6527 Office
352 336-3299 Fax
352 316-1637 Cell
The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are
not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use
or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail
and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.


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[RE-wrenches] High Grid Voltage in Los Angeles

[Peter Parrish]

To all of you that labor in Los Angeles: we have been experiencing some
recurring high grid voltages in the Northeast Los Angele area (e.g. 90065).
About a month ago a client called to inform us that his inverter was off
line. It turned out that there may have been a voltage spike intense enough
to take out his inverter permanently. What we know for sure is that he had
persistently high voltage over a considerable length of time (many days).
LADWP put a monitoring box on his service, but so far they have failed to
share any data with the client (despite his numerous requests).

As of a week ago, the monitor was still on his service, and LADWP was still
not providing any information of any significance.

Now our new (mfg date July 2010) GT3.3 inverter went off line due to an AC
Voltage fault. The voltage ranged from 266.4 to 268.1 V-ac over a ten minute
interval. I am using a true RMS Extech 380942 DMM and it was calibrated to
NIST traceable standards. So I trust my measurements implicitly. LADWP filed
service came by a few minutes ago and confirmed the problem.

If there is anyone else in the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power
service territory (or your clients) who is having grid voltage anomalies,
please let me know off-line. I am prepared gather and serve as a focal point
for those affected (and possibly to LADWP).

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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[RE-wrenches] Los Angeles Assessor Form

[Peter Parrish]

Has anyone had to help a client (Los Angeles County, California) filling out
a Property Owner's Statement - New Construction. This form was sent to the
client/homeowner, apparently triggered by the issuance of a permit to
install a PV system.

I gave it a quick once over and there does not appear to be a place for
exempt projects such as wind and solar.

Any help from someone who has actually filled out one of these forms, would
be much appreciated.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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[RE-wrenches] Colored Solar Panels

[Peter Parrish]

The is a relatively new company in Southern California, Gold Coast Solar,
that is marketing colored PV panels a/k/a Stylish Solar Panels™.

Back in late-2010, they were in the process of getting CEC listing. They are
not listed today, at least not under Gold Coast.

They made some technically incorrect statements on their website, which gave
me some concern back then.

Does anyone have any intelligence on this company or their product?

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex / Schneider recall update

[Peter Parrish]

We have had our delivery date repeatedly pushed out to 2-3 weeks from my
date of inquiry. Our latest ship date is definitely the week of 4/11-4/15
2011.  We'll see.

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
Solutions
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 4:07 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex / Schneider recall update


Just got off the phone with Schneider Electric, formally Xantrex.  They
said, bla bla bla, yada yada yada and they are hoping our parts will be in
by the end of the month. 
 

 
Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond 
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com 
 
Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] PVC running through the house

[Peter Parrish]

The Code back then was a little vague back then and I am not sure it has
been improved.

First, there needs to be a DC disconnect just before or just after
penetrating the building shell. Most AHJ allowed us to place this disconnect
in the attic within reach of the access door. Once we needed to place the DC
disconnect on the roof and we were able to get away with a fused combiner
box. Another time we actually needed to put a 600V 3-pole fused disco on the
roof.

Second, and this is really an obscure point. Only conduit, raceways and the
like (not cable runs) were allowed in the attic space and walls. So FMC is
okay but MC is not. It is an issue of unfortunate terminology.

Third, you need to label the conduit “Caution – Solar Circuit”, even in the
walls.

Finally, where the conduit passes thru studs, you need protection plates on
the studs to prevent screws or nails piercing the conduit.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

-Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 3:05 PM
To: RE-Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVC running through the house

Hi folks

Was wondering- does anyone know back in 2005, if it was permissible to run
DC conductors from the roof, through the home to the inverter location,
inside the house, per the NEC?

Thanks 

Keith Cronin

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Re: [RE-wrenches] The Simplest Line Side Tap EVER

[Peter Parrish]

That's pretty easy. Square D has a 3R rated 60A fusible disco.
 
P/N D222NRB with Class R fuse kit P/N RFK03H 
 
The fuse kit rejects non Class R fuses
 
As for the Milbank tap kit, would this kit have to be used with Milbank
sockets only? I'm thinking of both mechanical issues and nit picking
inspectors who might claim that non-Milbank sockets were not approved for
this kit.
 
- Peter
 
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Eric Thomas
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:25 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Simplest Line Side Tap EVER
 
This puppy is adaptable to most residential installations...easy. 

http://www.milbankmfg.com/products/Catalogs/CatalogFiles/PDF/K4977.pdf#Tap%2
0Connector

Now, can someone PLEASE share with me the PN for a good 60A Fused Two-Pole
AC Disco that is service rated for the other end of this?

Thanks!

-- 
Eric Thomas
Solar Epiphany LLC
(206) 919-3014
www.solarepiphany.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

[Peter Parrish]

Back in '06 I got a nifty roll of stickers that I think were meant to be put
inverters. But we put so much (doubtless important) signage on our systems,
I stopped using them. Maybe they might be used on plans.

- Peter

 
 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Troy Harvey
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

I am wondering if anyone has had a NABCEP stamp made to stamp plans. I have
a city agency who is comfortable with the NABCEP certification as a
qualification, but would like to see a stamp. Has anyone out there done
this? 

Troy

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[RE-wrenches] Expansion joints

[Peter Parrish]

Does anyone have information (manu and part number) for expansion joints for
1-1/2 EMT? I have also heard that many EJs are designed for rigid conduit
(RMC) and may not be directly applicable to EMT.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

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[RE-wrenches] Fronius IG-5100

[Peter Parrish]

I have a client that was going to get a refurbished IG-5100 under warranty,
but he is now thinking about the newer IG Plus 6.0.

Fronius is not interested in replacing the dead IG-5100 with an IG Plus 6.0
even though the client is willing to pay a reasonable amount of money for
the upgrade.

Besides the fact that I think Fronius is missing an opportunity to score
some PR points here -- can anyone help me understand the IG Plus new
features and benefits compared to the old IG line? As far as I can tell,
the current three strings of 12 each Kc1

How are the IG Plus faring in the field?

Is anyone interested in a refurbished IG-5100 that is still in the box from
Fronius? Warranty runs through July 2017. If so please contact me off line.
Now that I think about it I need to ask Fronius if the warranty transfers to
a new owner.

 - Peter
   
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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[RE-wrenches] Bulk Chrging Rate for AGM Batteries

[Peter Parrish]

We have a portable demo-off grid system (24 Vdc, 120 Vac, 1kW-ac) and
occasionally we end the day with a fairly deep discharge 11.6-11.7 V (80%
DoD).

I like to get a deeply discharged battery back up to 100% capacity as soon
as possible (as opposed to letting the 850 W PV / charge controller system
charge it up over a several days) and I have a AC battery chargers with
20A', 10A and 2A bulk settings along with being able to choose, wet,
gel and AGM settings.

Our battery of choice is a SunXtender AGM battery (PVX-2120L, 12V 253 amp-hr
(C/120).

My question: Starting with this battery at say 11.6 volts (open circuit), is
it safe to begin the bulk charge at ~8% of its C/120 capacity (i.e. 20A),
and let the charger go into absorption at 14.4 V (with temperature
correction of course) and finish at 2A? How high could I safely start the
bulk charge? 

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Array tilt angle doesn't matter?

[Peter Parrish]

Interesting abstract.

One thing that struck me was the lack of measured data on power production
(if that indeed is the object of this study). I guess one can infer the Pmp
from the short circuit current (Isc ), the open circuit voltage (Uoc ) and
the cell temperature (T) of each cell. I also wonder how often the data
points were recorded. With the general availability of micro-inverters,
their use would have been a better choice.

In the final analysis, if the data is sound, the result may only apply to
Hannover (high latitude and low-insolation) and similar sites.

How orientation-dependent is indirect radiation?

It would be great if we could read the whole article...

- Peter 


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of North Texas
Renewable Energy Inc
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:04 PM
To: RE Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array tilt angle doesn't matter?

At least that's the conclusion of Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz. 
The largest difference of the [PV] plant yield was less than 6% for tilt
angles between 0° and 70°.
This begs the question, where did the notion that tilt to latitude is
critical come from. Surely NREL or someone else has tested this concept
before. Anyway if N-S angle energy production loss is only 6% to +/-35° then
E-W should be too, right? But it's not. 
Here's why. If you measured irradiance at 10°-70° only at noon over 12
months, the air mass would at its minimum during the entire test and
so irradiance deviation would be too. AM would not be constant at +/- 35°
E-W which has been verified by NREL and others for a long time, AM increases
the further from solar noon the sun gets. 
But if the Earths tilt is 23.5 degrees and Gottfried measured to 35 degrees,
the difference is 11.5 degrees at summer and winter solstice. And if your
array angle is +/- 11.5 deg from true south, rule of thumb is that
irradiance losses are minimal. Maybe only 6% or so. 
This puts the significance of array tilt in a whole new light. Pun
intended... 
Of course there is a fee to download the entire document but the abstract is
here 
http://tinyurl.com/4zf2syk
http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-78951495350origin=inwar
dtxGid=kX6CkwoH_w_VL01NbmaciIC%3a2
 
 
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy
 
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solmetric SunEye upgrade?

[Peter Parrish]

I recently went through the same exercise as you are about three months ago.
Our Site Surveyors had mangles the jack on the Model 100 body to the point
that there was less than a 50% chance that (1) the unit would charge up
adequately and (2) we could download the session to our computer.

The fix of course was to send the unit back to Solmetric and have them fix
the jack.

Well, their response was that the HP iPaq PDA (the heart of the SunEye) was
now discontinued and they weren't sure that they could find one. They
offered instead the new model with a paltry trade-in allowance (which they
have since increased).

I told them that I found a new iPaq on EBay, and I would purchase it and
ship it to them. They rejected that solution because of warranty issues. I
countered that I was just trying to be helpful and that they could buy the
iPaq on EBay themselves (they didn't like that idea either).

They kept bringing up the upgrade to the 210, and at one point increased the
trade-in. I still wanted the old SunEye fixed because it fulfilled our needs
and I didn't want to shell out another $1,500.

Well, Solmetric finally fixed our unit for a tidy sum (maybe $400, I don't
remember exactly) and it continues to see 2-3X weekly usage.

We have given up using the compass, precisely because every mapping app
shows true North from Google Maps to the Thomas Guide.

I'm pretty sure that a +/- 10 degree error will not create a large impact on
production (without shading issues). With shading it could be important.

With all the mapping apps, we feel pretty confident we can figure out true
south once we get on the roof before the Site Survey (look at Google Earth
and figure out a prominent landscape feature from the roof beforehand).

I haven't held the 210 in my hands so I can't vouch for its increased human
interface, and I don't understand any of the new features, so we are pretty
happy in our ignorance. 

It may be more to do that I really appreciate well-made equipment and I tend
to keep them (and fix them) for a long time. Heck I still have a 1986 Audi
Quattro...

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hans
Frederickson
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 10:07 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solmetric SunEye upgrade?

Wrenches,
I'm considering upgrading my old SunEye 100 to the model 210 this year. Even
with the trade-in credit, the 210 costs more than the original SunEye did.
I'm interested in hearing from those of you who have taken this step. Is it
worth it? What are the most significant benefits to you?

While we're on the subject of the SunEye, let's talk about some of the
tricks to using this tool. I've found the built-in compass to be very
sensitive to nearby metal, even nails under comp shingles. I find it more
accurate to get the orientation of a site from Google maps and the azimuth
angle finder on the Solmetric website:
http://www1.solmetric.com/tools/RoofAzimTool.htm

Then I update the azimuth angle in the software to the accurate measurement
from Solmetric/Google, but it's still a tedious process to get the tool
oriented as accurately as possible on site. That's part of why I'm
interested in the 210, because its more rectangular shaped body would be a
bit easier to orient on site with a protractor if the magnetic compass is
having fits. Am I being too fussy with this? As I see it, a 10-degree
azimuth error will throw off your shading analysis enough to be significant
in certain scenarios, e.g. does the shade from that tall tree stop at 9am or
10am?

Regards,
-Hans

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Calculation of Maximum Circuit Current

[Peter Parrish]

Short answer: DC/PV side two factors of 1.25; AC side one factor.

Reasons: the common factor of 1.25 is due to the treatment of PV systems as
continuous sources of power, the second factor of 1.25 is for the cloud
effect. It is entirely possible to get more than 1,000 W/m^2 on a PV module
if there are large cumulus clouds that don't block the sunlight but act as
pretty good reflectors of sunlight.

As a result you need to increase Isc (times the number of combined strings
if that is the case) by 1.56, and all computed AC currents by 1.25. Same
goes for and switches and OCPDs.

Then of course you need to compute the ampacity of the wire being used,
taking care to apply the temperature  correction and conduit fill correction
before comparing to the maximum current calculation.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
wire...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 11:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Calculation of Maximum Circuit Current

In studying for NABCEP certification I am a little confused about whether
you multiply the short circuit current by 1.25 once or twice (1.56) in order
to calculate maximum circuit current in determining wire size. Same for
overcurrent protection.

I have always done it twice (1.56) for both PV source circuit and PV output
circuit. Once for over irradiance and once for continuous use. 

But a handout at a recent seminar that I went to totally confused me. 

Can anyone spell it out very clearly?

Thank you.

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV voltage at Isc

[Peter Parrish]

Dear Greg and others,

The answer to your “paradox” is actually quite simple. It is also a great
example of how a paradox can stimulate further thought until a more refined
answer can be achieved.

First, let’s set up the problem. You have a PV module and an external
circuit. In the case of an Isc measurement, the external circuit is some low
resistance #10 or #12 wire and a pair of MC-4 or MC-3 connectors. #10 wire
is rated at approximately one milliohm (0.001 ohm) per foot. I honestly
don’t know the resistance of a well-crimped MC connector but lest say it is
in the range of one milliohm. 

So, if we call the “external circuit” everything outside of the j-box on the
back of the module (the wire whips and the two MC connectors) and the “PV
module” everything inside the j-box, the series string of the PV cells and
their interconnections. Let’s ignore the bypass diodes.

The external circuit might have a resistance of 5 milliohms.

With the MC connectors mated, let’s make our current measurement with a
clamp-on ammeter. Let’s make our voltage measurement at the terminal block
inside the j-box.

If we measure Isc to be 8.0 amps. If we actually had a j-box with an
accessible terminal block, I would expect something on the order of 40
millivolts. One would need to have a more sensitive DMM than wrenches
normally carry.

In general, the equation would be Vterm=Isc*Rext where Rext is the
resistance of the external circuit and Isc is the current flowing in the
external circuit.

The resolution to the paradox (at least at this level) is that there is some
resistance in
The external circuit, albeit a relatively low value.

But the argument might take the following tack: what if I use larger and
larger gauge wire and a more massive connector (like a utility-scale splice
block)? The answer is that there will always be some resistance in the
external circuit, however small and the voltage will always obey the
equation Vterm=Isc*Rext.

We have neatly side stepped one possible question, Where does Isc come
from? And what is the equivalent circuit model for a PV cell?

I'm not sure we need to drill down to that level (unless some one wants to
contact me off line), but the quick answer is that there is a fairly good
model for a PV cell that consists of a current source, and two resistances
(a series resistance and a shunt resistance). In an Isc measurement, the
series resistance does contribute to an internal voltage drop, but we
can't directly measure that series resistance with a simple Isc
measurement. With a full I-V trace we can determine all of the most
important parameters: Isc, Rser, Rsh and Voc.
 
- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Greg Egan
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 11:30 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV voltage at Isc

Fellow Scientists,

I got in a discussion with a wrench the other day.  He is under the
impression that when a PV module is at short circuit current there is no
voltage.  My understanding of electricity is that if there's no voltage
there's no current because current needs voltage in order to flow.  I'm
seeing it as a difference in potential, voltage that is.  If there's no
difference in potential I don't understand why current would flow.  

I googled it and the few links I checked out were on his side - zero voltage
at Isc.  All this is of course irrelevant to the business of installing PV
so if you don't care I don't blame you.  

So I still think that if you a precise enough meter that if you stuck the
test leads into the cables sticking out of the back of a shorted PV module
that you'd read some small voltage that was approaching zero.  Any
explanation of why I am right or wrong in plain English (I'm not really a
scientist) would be welcome.

All the best,

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.
Fairbanks, AK

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: PV Encapsulant 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Problem with NABCEP ad

[Peter Parrish]

As PV becomes more and more mainstream, more and more organizations
(including state licensing boards, unions and other certifying bodies) will
weigh in on the subject of certifying installers for PV installation. We
also have Professional Engineers that can provide expert opinions on the
subject of sound engineering design.

I think one of the more interesting conflicts (in California at least) is
the insistence by some AHJs (and clients) that certain work be performed by
a licensed electrical contractor (C-10 in CA) as opposed to a licensed solar
contractor (C-46). Gosh, some schools require a C-10 license to teach PV
design and installation!

It is my understanding (and I am prepared to be corrected) that there is
nothing in the C-10 license requirements (experience, skills, examination)
that would argue that the holder of a C-10 license has any PV-specific
knowledge, such as design of a PV system (orientation, shading, string
sizing, proper PV ampacity calculations, maximum and minimum system
voltages, proper loading analysis, anchoring and attachment of PV systems on
roof tops), commissioning/troubleshooting or calculation of annual energy
production, or financial metrics such as payback and IRR. But I digress.

As for NABCEP certification, there are of course different levels and
different specialties. If we stick to the Entry Level exam for PV installers
and the (full-up) Certified Solar PV Installer (of which I have some
knowledge) -- I think both have their value.

An individual who passes the Entry Level Exam demonstrates that they have a
certain level of knowledge about solar resources, PV system design and
installation, system performance, troubleshooting, safety practices, and
some financial metrics. What it doesn't deal with is experience and
practical skills. If I were contemplating hiring for an entry level
installer position, I would give considerable weight to some one who passed
the Entry Level Exam. I would of course also evaluate the individual's
skills and construction trade experience. 

As for the Certified Solar PV Installer, the requirements to sit for the
exam include a significant amount of actual hands-on PV installation
experience. There are a number of ways to qualify and I think that NABCEP
has recognized a fairly broad number of paths to demonstrating this
experience. There is recognition of academic instruction but it must be
coupled with hands-on experience. There is also a code of ethics and
requirements for continuing education as a requirement for recertification.

And then there is the exam. I can vouch for the fact that the exam is
thorough and difficult. As an anecdote, when I took the exam not one single
person left the exam before the end of the time period. I won't hazard a
guess as to the pass rate, perhaps someone else can provide some insight.

With all this work that NABCEP has put into standards and certification, I
would expect them to promote the value of their standards and
certifications. (full disclosure: I haven't seen the ad in Home Power; could
someone provide me with issue and page number?).

Is insist too strong a word? I don't know. I hear advertising all the time
like Insist on genuine DELCO parts! Somehow I am not offended by that
advertising slogan. Do we deny NABCEP the right to advertise or advocate? Do
we hold them to some higher level of behavior (if so, I can't figure out how
to characterize what is appropriate or inappropriate).

I can image a situation where I was comparing two installers (installation
companies) and both had the proper licensing, insurance, experience (at
least three years in the business and 100 kW of installs), multiple
references and the proposed PV systems were comparable, then the NABCEP
Certified Solar PV Installer wouldn't carry that much weight (but it just
might be the tie breaker). On the other hand, if I were looking at two
installers each with barely two years of experience and a ten installs,
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer might get my business.

I just had an interesting situation come up about a month ago. We ran up
against another installer. He was working for a brand new company (lot's of
them out there) and he himself had a two-year technology degree from a
Community College and was a NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer. We couldn't
figure out how much experience he had, but his C-10 license was only two
years old and he claimed to be a sole-proprietor without any employees on
his state license declarations -- up until 9 months ago. This guy was long
on theory and short on practice. 

Trying to sum up my various thoughts: the NABCEP Certified Solar PV
Installer is crucial when comparing (1) relative newcomers to the PV
installation business, (2) electrical contractors or general contractors for
whom PV is not their principal business, and (3) two otherwise equally
qualified individuals or companies.

Having said all that, Larry, why wouldn't you want to study the NABCEP PV
learning objectives, 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Peter Parrish]

Well, 

I thought we were talking about getting into bed with roofers. If we are
talking about DIYers, here is my two cents worth.

Just so boB and Warren don’t appear to be a couple of voices in the
wild(erness). I personally do not know of a single PV integrator who would
work with a DIYer. The reasons for walking away from this kind of business
are so numerous, I will list only the first fourteen:

(1) A DIYer looking for some help in installing a PV system, might be
looking to avoid pulling a permit, or
(2) Expects to pull a permit as an owner-builder, or
(3) Wants you to pull the permit
(4) Doesn’t think we need to perform a site survey, because he got on the
roof a couple of weeks ago and everything will fit and there was no shading.
(5) Wants you to fill out the rebate paperwork (and not pay for the effort)
(6) Doesn’t want to pay for engineering either (what do you mean we can’t
use the 500 ft of #14 THHN wire I bought?) 
(7) Or for that matter permit documentation (you want $250 to draw up a
permit package! That’s outrageous!)
(8) Wants the installer to carry the warranty for the stuff his brother
bought on the internet from PVPartsForSale
(9) Isn’t 100% sure exactly what came in the “kit”
(10)  Wants the installer to bid on the project based on a PowerPoint layout
he did for the modules (What do you mean I have to know the rafter spacing
and orientation? I assumed you would cut those black plastic pipes vents
flush with the roof. Don’t worry I’ll move the satellite dish!)
(11)  Wants to do “a little of the work himself on the weekends” (Like
running some conduit through the attic). 
(12)  Wants the installer to vouch for the fact that the PV modules were
purchased “new” even though there is a fine layer of dirt everywhere on the
panels even in the rain channels, and some of the panels have wire clips
installed on the backside.
(13)  Doesn’t know anything about his service panel, or whether or not he
had a code compliant grounding system, and is not sure what kind of roof he
has (I think it’s “tile”) or what condition it’s in
(14) And he has done a little unpermitted electrical work in the past, but
that shouldn’t be a problem should it?

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren
Lauzon
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:19 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
installation methods

I just got a similar call last Friday, from someone who had bought their
“complete offgrid system” from that same “cheapestsolar” outfit 
 
Somehow they managed to sell them a 6000 watt panel system for off grid
along with enough battery to last them about 3 hours. Along with the 24 225
watt panels, they had also purchased a complete dual Outback VFX 48 volt
6000 watt+ inverter setup. And 400 amp-hours of golf car batteries...
 
It is déjà vu all over again. It has gotten so bad in the past couple of
years that we stopped publishing our 800 tech support number. At least when
they call us for help with what they bought from a competitor they have to
pay for the phone call.
 
 
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 6:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods
 
I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a
bunch of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could
get a end of the year tax break. He wanted me to come and install it for
him. I told him my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the
low hanging fruit first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell
or install systems I do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help
him. I wished him good luck in getting someone to touch that gear. Too bad
the cheapestsolar.com folks don't warn their customers about these kinds of
situations.

Just like the Carter gold rush days is correct.

Todd

On Friday, January 28, 2011 2:52pm, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com
said:
I installed a system provides by another, it failed, because of defective
equipment, I am being sued to replace the defective equipment
DT
 

From: boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 11:25:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
installation methods

On 1/28/2011 8:41 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: 
Joel,
 
Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we help
the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. 
We get  a dozen phone 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider recall

[Peter Parrish]

I believe that Schneider will send PB board swap-out kits to installers and
compensate installers for the swap-out. We are putting together a list of
all the GT inverters that we have installed since 2002 and will ask for
enough to cover the list, and if we have extra kts left over, we will be
able to send them back to Schneider.

I understand that almost every GT inverter is subject to this recall.  It
looks like we may have 30 or so to take care of.

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 9:14 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider recall

So have you seen the widespread recall on the Xantrex GT and Sunpower SPRx
line?
Bulletin reports instances of the wiring cover blowing off the inverter 
suggests all inverters be shut down until a retrofit kit is available for
installation.

-Glenn Burt


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Matching modules into Xantrex GT

[Peter Parrish]

A typo. See below:

Here is the way I figure this kind of problem out.

(1) Old modules. Figure out the number of cells and the cell size. For
example 72 cells, 100 mm (4”) square.

(2) New module. If you can, find a module with the same number of cells (not
modules!) and same cell size.

(3) Make sure were are talking the same PV Cell material (crystalline Si,
poly or single)

To first order, the two modules should have nearly the same characteristics:
Voc, Isc, Vmp and Imp. You should be able to build a new string with the
same number of modules. Caveat: older modules will show lower Isc due to the
fact that there have been significant advances in surface treatment (AR
coating, surface etching) and in the case of poly special treatment of the
wafer (heat treatment plus H2 gas?).

Failing that, try to match up total number of cells in the string, keeping
cell size the same. I don’t have the SW data at hand but it doesn’t look
like they are a good match.

Don’t give up on SW175s. There may be someone who has some lying around or
the precursor Shell Solar 175-PC. You might have to fixture them with new
connectors. 

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 10:51 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Matching modules into Xantrex GT

Friends:

I have a client with a Xantrex GT2.8 inverter.  Feeding it are 8 Solar World
SW175 modules.  This is half the modules that this inverter can handle.  The
client wants to realize the full potential of this inverter.  Adding 8
additional SW175 modules would be ideal, but they are no longer
manufactured.

I need to find a group of modules to match the 175s.  I am contemplating 9
SW240s.  The specifications for this match up are below.  I imagine the IV
curves are similar for these two modules as they are the same chemistry and
the same manufacturer.

8-SW175 9-SW240
Voc 403 382
Vmp 283 275
Imp 4.957.87
Pcsi12521715
Ptotal  2.967

Might this match be close enough?  I know this over-powers the inverter
slightly.  I imagine that the Xantrex will self regulate this very rare over
wattage condition.

Comments?

William Miller




Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller 
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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[RE-wrenches] Incompatible Metals

[Peter Parrish]

One of my students who is currently responsible for standing for inspection
at their company encountered a inspector who made an interesting point about
incompatible metals (i.e. copper and anodized aluminum).

The PV system in question used outdoor rated lay-in lugs to bond the rails
to bare copper wire (so far so good). The ground wire was then zip-tied to
the rail to carry it to the point where it entered a junction box along with
the rest of the PV conductors.

The inspector was concerned with the fact that the bare copper was in
contact with the aluminum rails and that this might cause galvanic corrosion
and subsequent failure of the grounding.

I have never encountered this issue before and I wonder if anyone else has
and what was the outcome.

As an aside: I do know that 10 AWG and 12 AWG  solid bare copper wire can be
purchased pre-tinned (maybe not tin per se, but coated). We did so by
mistake. We used it up, but not before one inspector questioned its use for
the purpose of grounding our system. We showed him the UL label on the spool
and scraped off the coating to expose the copper core and that satisfied
him. To this day I don't know if the use of this wire for grounding was
among its intended purposes.

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Incompatible Metals

[Peter Parrish]

Great idea Kelly! I didn't know one could get green jacketed USE or XHHW. Do
you have a source? Also, do you think that we might need wire rated -2 for
90 deg C wet locations. I know that this is not a current carrying
conductor, but roof tops are definitely 90 deg C wet environments. Your
thoughts?

- Peter

 
 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly
Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun  Wind
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 10:14 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Incompatible Metals

Peter,
I have never understood the common practice of using bare copper  
ground wire on and against aluminum frames and modules. It always has  
been a dissimilar metals issue. Just look anywhere copper has set  
against aluminum for awhile.
We use #10 green jacketed Cu USE or XHHW conductor and strip away the  
jacket at each lug, using No-Ox on that section of bare wire at the  
lug. The wire can be tucked in to the module frames and with the PV  
conductors.

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun  Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360-678-7131




On Jan 14, 2011, at 7:36 AM, Peter Parrish wrote:

 One of my students who is currently responsible for standing for  
 inspection
 at their company encountered a inspector who made an interesting  
 point about
 incompatible metals (i.e. copper and anodized aluminum).

 The PV system in question used outdoor rated lay-in lugs to bond the  
 rails
 to bare copper wire (so far so good). The ground wire was then zip- 
 tied to
 the rail to carry it to the point where it entered a junction box  
 along with
 the rest of the PV conductors.

 The inspector was concerned with the fact that the bare copper was in
 contact with the aluminum rails and that this might cause galvanic  
 corrosion
 and subsequent failure of the grounding.

 I have never encountered this issue before and I wonder if anyone  
 else has
 and what was the outcome.

 As an aside: I do know that 10 AWG and 12 AWG  solid bare copper  
 wire can be
 purchased pre-tinned (maybe not tin per se, but coated). We did so  
 by
 mistake. We used it up, but not before one inspector questioned its  
 use for
 the purpose of grounding our system. We showed him the UL label on  
 the spool
 and scraped off the coating to expose the copper core and that  
 satisfied
 him. To this day I don't know if the use of this wire for grounding  
 was
 among its intended purposes.

 - Peter

 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
 California Solar Engineering, Inc.
 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
 Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?

[Peter Parrish]

I know only a little about Power Factor charges, but we can figure out
some other engineering issues.
 
Power Factor is a measure of the amount of reactive (out-of-phase) power
compared to real (in-phase) power. It is somewhat complicated but the PF is
unity for 100% in phase and 0 for 100% out-of-phase power. 
 
The important thing to remember is that (while holding the real power
constant) for PFs less than unity there is in addition to the real power,
and in-flow of power and an outflow of power four times a cycle. One
might say, Why do I care about reactive power? It flows in and out with no
net contribution over the long run!). True, but the in-flow and out-flow
represents higher currents on the lines and more  losses. Or it means that
there have to be oversized service conductors to avoid the extra losses.
Even if the losses are avoided, the higher currents can trip overcurrent
protection devices, and of course the utility company needs to supply (and
take back) the extra currents in real time.
 
What ever is done to reduce the reative power, it has to be done in real
time (with a fraction of 0.016 seconds, the 60 Hz cycle). You can't wait
until later in the evening to solve a problem that is occuring during the
day.
 
Real time compensation can be often done with capacitors alone or in
conjuction with some smart electronics. Remember that for short periods of
time capacitors can store considerable amounts of energy and can smooth out
these reactive currents.
 
I can well imagine how an inverter can be designed to generate both real and
reactive power, and therfore an inverter can reduce the amount of reactive
power that needs to be supplied by the utility company - but not when the
sun isn't shining. I suspect that these types of inverters will have
oversized output circuit wiring to handle the reactive currents without
adversely impacting their efficiency rating. 
 
If I have time this weekend, I will take a look at Apparent's website.
 - Peter
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jamie
Johnson
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 2:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
 
It's an interesting product for a niche market if it actually works as they
say (Disclaimer:I am not claiming that it does), after speaking with an
individual who I believe is the VP of Production for Apparent (use to work
for EnPhase according to their website), he claims that the product is
currently installed at the Google campus on a solar canopy for some of their
EV chargers (can anyone verify this?)
 
They have several other beta installs as well, however the individual I
spoke to said they were only installing small systems at beta test sites
(where the Util co charges for VAR's using separate meters like for EV
charging) for now.  No pricing has been set for the inverters, and they are
not available for sale to installers yet.
 
Apparently they claim the inverter can create/produce VAR's by taking 1 watt
of power from the grid at night or from the solar output during the day and
turning it into approximately 9 VAR's to offset the customers charges for
VAR usage from the Grid.  This is where the KVAh production on the graph
before sunrise and after sunset comes from.
 
I still would need to see a third party head to head comparison test before
I believed it.  Again niche market inverter for when the utility co charges
for VAR's.
 
Jamie
 
 
 
 
 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?
From: August Goers aug...@luminalt.com
Date: Fri, January 07, 2011 10:24 am
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Hi All -

Thanks for the helpful info! We did a little more research on our end and
I guess Apparent is the new brand name for the Xslent product. What
baffles me is the chart where they show that they're producing power
before and after sunrise and sunset:

http://www.apparent.com/products/mgi.html

The system must include batteries? Someone on their marketing team is
really going to town...

Best, August

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 4:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?

HI Peter,

I agree with you that for now on residential it makes no sense.
However for commercial that might have to pay extra for PF issues, to have
the inverter adjust for this makes sense.
Its the reason they( inverter companies ) are doing it.
Ive heard a better more complete reason of course from Bill Brooks, who
maybe can chime in.

sorry got away from me,


jay
peltz power
On Jan 6, 2011, at 2:34 PM, Peter

Re: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?

[Peter Parrish]

I can't understand how any inverter WOULDN'T deliver its power with the
voltage and current 100% IN PHASE. 

When the voltage and current are not 100% in-phase that represents reactive
power. Reactive power flows positive for a quarter of the AC cycle, then
negative for a quarter of a cycle, then positive and then negative. The net
result over one AC cycle is ZERO power delivered to the load.

So reactive power is worthless. 

Worse, it results in higher currents (and voltages) for the same amount of
in-phase power, putting additional stress on circuits.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 1:25 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xslent?

Hi All -

Have any of you heard of the Xslent XPX-A1000 microinverter?

http://www.xetenergy.com/#Tab-2_link-1

We're going up against them on a 10 kW system and I'm trying to figure out
if their claims about producing reactive power mean anything to us in the
real world. They are saying that their 6 kW system will outperform our 10
kW system.

I also noticed that their CEC efficiency is only 89%...

Best,

August
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low grid voltage fix

[Peter Parrish]

No one should put up with grid voltages out of range. Immediately inform
your utility: tell them where, when and how often you measured (or your
inverter registered) the out of range voltages. It turns out that you are
doing them a favor and they often appreciate the information.

What we measure with a DMM is an average of a second or so, and there are
short term transients on top of this average that often are as much as +/- 5
Volts. Since inverters measure and respond on the order of 10 milliseconds,
they can provide a means of assessing the health of the grid, which goes
beyond DMM measurements.

A couple of stories:

We responded to a bad inverter call where the inverter in question kept
shutting down in the AM. We measured Vac = 252 V around 10 AM pretty
consistently, but the transients kept taking out the inverter. SCE traced
the problem to a nearby firm that was throwing a lot of transients onto the
grid from their equipment.

At our home office, we had our inverter trip a couple of times (thanks to a
TED monitor, we saw it happen in real time) and we called LADWP. To their
credit, they had a technician out THE SAME DAY. They also called us the
following day to say that they looked into the situation and discovered that
they had recently bumped the voltage in our neighborhood, and consequently
backed it off a bit. We then got a call a couple of days later to inquire if
everything was okay (it was). I may be critical of some of the things LADWP
does, but in this case I was very impressed.

As for a high or low (but still compliant) average voltage, the utilities
constantly adjust the taps on their distribution transformers, sometimes
for seasonal reasons and sometimes for changing demand (imagine a bunch of
apartments complexes being built in a previously single family dwelling
neighborhood).

Again, don't be shy. If (a) your inverters are shutting down and indicating
out of range grid voltages or (b) you measure Vac within five volts or so of
264 or 216 V, let your utility know.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 4:49 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low grid voltage fix

Joel,

Unrelated, mostly.  I got a call from a customer a few weeks ago 
that was claiming his inverter had failed working.  When I arrived it was in

fact not working and gave a code that the grid voltage was too high.  I 
called Fronius and they said they sometimes have had to replace a card to 
fix this sometimes, but also suggested that I check the grid voltage first, 
just in case.

I was a bit surprised to find 270 VAC L-L, 135VAC L-Gnd.  Out of 
disbelief, I checked it with another meter and got the same readings.  This 
was PGE, NE Ca.  Service dude came at customer's request and claimed the 
voltage reg was not adjusted properly. Problem fixed.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA  95983
530-284-7849/6544 fax


- Original Message - 
From: Joel Davidson joel.david...@sbcglobal.net
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:24 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low grid voltage fix


 Wrenches,

 It's Christmas time again in Southern California Edison (SCE) territory 
 which means low insolation and high regional electric consumption. Every 
 night SCE voltage drops to around 105 VAC or lower. Our grid-tie SW4048 
 inverter sees SCE's low voltage as a brownout and switches to autonomous 
 mode which is normal. However, we have only 4 kWh of battery storage so 
 the combination of nightly brownouts and a series of cloudy days 
 eventually depletes our battery bank causing the inverter to do a 
 low-voltage shut down which is normal. Power goes off in our home and we 
 have to switch over to SCE power, reset the inverter, and wait until the 
 battery bank is recharged. How do we set the SW4048 to accept as low as 
 100 VAC from the grid before switching to autonomous mode?

 Joel Davidson
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[RE-wrenches] Driving Point Impedance of the Point of Connection of a Grid-tied PV System

[Peter Parrish]

I wanted to share with the Wrenches a post-install measurement that we make
and file along with the other routine measurements (e.g. V(+) to V(-), V(+)
to Gnd, V(-) to Gnd, Pac, time or date, date, ambient temp, etc).

This is the AC voltage at the distribution panel with and without the
inverter operating. For example, let's say we have a 5.5 kW PV system. A
clear day in late Fall around Noon might result in 4 kW-ac. We measure the
voltage at the distribution panel with both system(s) operating and then
throw the AC disco and re-measure. We typically see something around 3 Vac
difference.

Among other things this measurement provides evidence that a grid tied
inverter raises its output voltage/current to the point needed to inject its
AC power through the back-fed circuit breaker onto the panel (and from there
into the house loads and possibly the grid). 

One can calculate the effective resistance at the backfed breaker, using
the formula:
R=(2*Vac*dV/dP), where Vac~240V, dV~3V and dP~4000W. In this example the
result is 0.36 ohms. And this is close to what we see for relatively new
200A 120/250 split phase panel.

From our way of thinking, this number represents the impedance seen at the
back-fed solar breaker which is in turn a function of the resistance of the
breaker, the contact resistance of the breaker-buss connection, the
resistance of the panel distribution buss, the total resistance of the house
loads and the utility feed. The lower this number is the better. We have
seen as much as 1.2 ohms in an old 100A Zinsco panel, and this causes us
concern.

Is anyone aware of an article which discusses the effective circuit model of
a back-fed, grid-tied PV system? Or the inferences that one can make from
this measurement? What is the normal range of this impedance; or any other
similar measurements (such as taking these measurements at the L1-L2
terminal bock of the inverter proper which would include the voltage drop
for the inverter-panel circuit)?

- Peter


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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[RE-wrenches] Code reference needed

[Peter Parrish]

I spent some time putting together information on the 2'-6 Lower Limit
and the 6'-6 Upper Limit for operable equipment; and then when I went to
send out the results of my efforts, the content in the email disappeared.
Since the information I thought would be helpful, I have re-assembled the
information. I also found the 6 depth of working space citation. Here goes.


First, there has been a pretty complete move to metric units in the NEC
a/k/a SI or metric Units. In some places in the NEC, distances are defined
in terms of meters and decimal fractions of meters, in other places they are
defined in terms of millimeters, and in some others, they remain defined in
terms of feet and inches. So the oft mentioned 6'-6 (1.98 meter) limit has
occasionally been redefined to be 2.0 m (or 6'-6.7 and rounding up becomes
6'-7). However, in many other sections of the NEC designates 2.0 m as 6-1/2
ft; go figure.

600 V or less: 

Height of working space (headroom) is 2.0 m (6-1/2 ft) or height of
equipment. Reference is 110.26(A)(3) Height of Working Space, which in
turn refers to 110.26(E) Headroom, with some exceptions. 

Depth of working space 150 mm (6 in.). Reference is 110.26(A)(3) Height of
Working Space.

Overcurrent Protection needs to be readily accessible and the center of
the grip of the operating handle be no more than 2.0 m (6'-7). Reference
is 240.24(A).

Switches: center of the grip of the operating handle be no more than 2.0 m
(6'-7) above floor or working platform. There are some exceptions for fused
switches and circuit breakers on busways, motor switches; and there is a
exception for Hookstick operable switches.

Inverters. I have data on SMA, Xantrex and Fronius. 

SMA: The Sunny Boy must be mounted so that there is at least eight inches of
clearance around the Sunny Boy. The clearance between the inverter or the
SMA DC-Disconnect (if applicable) and the ground has to be at least 3 ft.
Sunny Boy Installation manual (Ver. 2.2, 2008) p. 26.

Xantrex: Table 2-2 Inverter Clearance Requirements Location Minimum
Clearance
Above 300 mm (12 inches) Below There is no clearance requirement between the
bottom of the inverter and the ground. Front 300 mm (12 inches) minimum. 910
mm (36 inches) are recommended for easy access for reading the display,
avoiding accidental contact with hot surfaces, and servicing the inverter.
Sides Units can be mounted side by side with no clearance between them, but
150 mm (6 inches) of clearance around the outside edges of the outermost two
units is recommended. In hot climates, some clearance between units may be
needed to prevent thermal derating. Xantrex Grid Tied Owner's Manual,
December 2009, Revision D, p. 2-7.

Fronius: To get the most out of your FRONUS IG unit, observe the following
rules... Only install it on a solid vertical wall at a minimum of 3 ft. (0.9
m) above
the ground and to a maximum of 6.5 ft. (2 m). Operating instructions
Grid-connected inverters for photovoltaic systems 02/2008.

I, too, can't find the 2'-6 lower limit specified anywhere in the NEC 2008.

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Code switch heights

[Peter Parrish]

I believe anything operable needs to be within 2’6” lower and 6’6” upper.

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of bob ellison
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:11 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Code switch heights

I am looking at installing 4 inverters in a system, 1 on an e panel and 2 SW
4048’s and also a SW plus. So its an interesting mix, 3 are just to cut the
generator run time for the diesel generator.

I am trying to find the allowable range for switch heights for all the gear.
Seems the upper limit is about 6’ but I am unsure on the lower limit.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Bob Ellison

No virus found in this message.
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[RE-wrenches] One Inverter - Two Strings - Different Orientations

[Peter Parrish]

I thought we thoroughly thrashed this one out. A no less an authority than
Bill Brooks assures us that we can orient two (or more) strings differently,
wire them in parallel and the MPPT algorithms in modern inverters will sort
things out, essentially extracting the maximum (or nearly maximum) power
available from each module. 

I remain skeptical, and I won't become a believer until I can run a
first-principles calculation on a simulator like PVSyst.

Nonetheless, we do design and have installed systems consisting of two
strings each with different orientations. Typically, the elevations match
but the azimuths are different (e.g. 160 deg and 200 degrees).

Do we get as much total energy in one day as we would with two inverters
being fed by one string each and with each inverter operating with the same
efficiency? We don't know for sure, but it would appear so within 10%.

Here's the real reason for my post. The customer is so happy with his system
he wants to max out (his PV energy production now covers only about 80% of
his usage). Currently he has two strings of 8 each BP3220T modules on a
Fronius IG4000.

Based on Voc (at 14 deg F) for the BP3220T, we can put 14 ea modules on a
string. Based on conventional Pac limits, we can put only 10 ea modules on
the two strings. But taking into consideration that we have strings with
different azimuths, we should be able to safely exceed this limit of 10 ea.

Has anyone tried to figure out what the practical string limit is based on
differing orientations? Let's assume El=25 deg, AZI=160 deg and 200 deg.

- Peter


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 3.7kW grid tie

[Peter Parrish]

SMA will sell a SB4000US programmed to limit the AC output current to 16.0A.
I think they designate it as a SB4000US-CL, or something to that effect.

Interestingly enough SunPower, which rebrands many of the SB inverters
(including the SB4000US) and sells them as SP products, has chosen not to
support this specific product, nor have they given any indication that they
are studying the situation with the goal of supporting the product through
their channel in the future.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Palumbo
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 11:35 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3.7kW grid tie

AC Point of Connection could be to a backfed 20A DP breaker in the existing
GE TM3210CCU load center (100A MB with 100A busbar) if the SMA SB3800
inverter was still available. But a SB4000 requires a 25A breaker which
violates the 120% rule with the existing panel.
Comments on the options below. 

#1) Go with another 240v grid tie inverter in the 3800W range, so we can use
a 20 Amp breaker. I see PV Powered and Kaco have 3500’s listed. Any 3.7, or
3.8kW inverters?

#2) Is it possible to either, change out the Main Breaker in the above GE
load center to a lower amperage MB, or add a Plug In Breaker. There is a GE
“feeder type” breaker # THQL2190 (90 A DP). Could we use this as the main
breaker for the load center above? It is listed as a 10KAIC breaker.

#3) Swap out existing 32 space load center and replace with 150AML panel
with 100A MB kit.

Thanks,
Dave Palumbo


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[RE-wrenches] Doing Business in Cleveland and Detroit

[Peter Parrish]

Are any installers who could help us with two projects in Cleveland and
Detroit? We have an opportunity to install PV and SDHW on a number of single
family dwellings in both cities. We are looking to do planning over the next
three months and the installations as soon as the weather permits (April?).
Respond off-line. 

Thanks, - Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] What is a solar installer...?

[Peter Parrish]

Hello Benn,

I have some pretty strong opinions about this subject but some of them are
reflections on politics as opposed to sound engineering design and best
installation practices.

See my comments interspersed below:

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn kilburn
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:12 PM
To: Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] What is a solar installer...?

Wrenches,
a colleague of mine is looking for feedback to the following email he
received regarding PV installers and electrical work.  I have responded to
him, however, I am quite interested to hear this list's response


LETTER--
'Colleague'  - next week Alberta’s “major municipalities” electrical chief
inspectors are getting together to talk about issues. One item I have asked
to put on the agenda is qualifications of solar installers. I hope to see a
start on forming some type of agreement on is who is qualified to do what
work on a solar installation and what is considered electrical work that
only electricians can perform. 

 In California, we have two specialty contractor licenses Solar (C-46)
and Electrical (C-10) and well as the General license (B) -- which are
qualified to install PV systems. I myself am a C-46 but I will probably step
up to taking the C-10 for political reasons.

There seems to be courses popping up all over to teach everyman to be a
solar installer, but what work is clearly reserved for electricians to do?
The Safety Codes Act speaks to Electrical Systems, CE (Canadian Electrical)
Code defines electrical installation and electrical equipment.

 Most (but not all) of the authorities having jurisdiction over PV
installations (here in California these are City or County Building and
Safety Departments) see PV as just an electrical system and check plans and
do inspections accordingly. However, the design and installation of the
racking system is an essential part of the overall picture. PV systems need
to be attached to properly transfer the dead and live loads from the PV
array to the major structural elements of the roof (e.g. rafters) and done
in such a way to preserve impermeability of water (and snow). In many parts
of CA we get 90 mph winds, which can transfer substantial loads to the
racking system. Finally, Fire Departments have begun to analyze PV array
layouts from the perspective of access to, and movement on, a roof during a
fire. Most of the racking systems are pre-engineered, and if you follow the
design guidelines, you should be okay. What I am trying to say is that
proper mechanical/structural design is important (maybe a 1/3 of the design
and 1/2 the installation) but the manufacturers to a good job of providing
guidelines for the installers.

 Electrical design is more involved and there are more opportunities to
commit design errors: PV string sizing, voltage drop and ampacity
calculations, over current protection, component selection, and grounding.
But here's the catch: almost all of this material is PV-specific, and very
few electricians have been educated or trained in this area. They pick it up
as they go along (poor choice) or take a course specifically in the area of
PV design and installation (better choice).

Let me make a WAG. If one were to randomly pick a C-10 electrician out of
the statewide pool and do the same for a C-46; the C-46 would be better
prepared to design and install a PV system than the C-10. The overwhelming
majority of residential installs in CA are done by solar contractors, I am
less sure about small commercial (say up to 15 kW to 50 kW).
 
 What I hope we accomplish is a stance we can take to the EIAA (Electrical
Inspectors Association of Alberta) conference then to Apprenticeship and
Industry Training who ultimately enforces who does work in the trade.

 IMHO, the first thing you should look at is a Solar Contract license --
if you don’t already have one. The second thing is to make available PV
classes for electrical (or other) contractors. There are scores of
consultants/instructors in the US that are prepared to provide this service
on an ad hoc basis. However, an on-going program at a local college offering
courses on PV as well as other renewable energy disciplines (e.g. wind)
would be the best long term solution.
 
To me the PV module racking can be done by anyone, but almost all of the
rest of the installation – from wire pulling to interconnecting modules,
mounting of the inverters etc falls clearly into the scope of practice for
electricians.

 You are wrong about that. And the way I know you are wrong is this. We
get about one call a month from a PV system owner who wants us to take a
look at 

Re: [RE-wrenches] insolation v. actual output

[Peter Parrish]

Hi Marco,

First off, the P-ptc/P-stc ratio is 90% if you have a high-quality module.
From their things get progressively worse.

IMHO it is like peeling an onion. From the outside it can be reduced to one
simple statement. Then you can investigate some of the simplifying
assumptions and make more sophisticated calculations based “actual data”. I
won’t start with an “equation” but a “rule of thumb”.

In Southern California 20-60 miles east from the ocean, with a roof facing
South and pitched at 5:12, with 3-6” of air space between the roof and the
modules, no shading, a good inverter (weighted 95% efficiency), and modules
with a PTC/STC rating of 90%, and all dc and ac runs using #10 wire...

One (1) kW-stc should produce 4.25 kWh per day, averaged over a year.

Less than optimum orientation, closer to the ocean and say a 3:12 roof
pitch, less than or equal to 3” off the roof, maybe an inverter with a 93%
efficiency, 50’ plus of #12 wire runs…

The number drops to 3.9 kWh per kW-dc averaged over a year.

I am surprised how well the two numbers bracket the actual numbers.

If you want an “equation” with a dozen independent parameters that you can
set…ask yourself how many of those parameters you actually have independent
verification and can “plug and chug” with any confidence? 

You can try PVWatts (which takes into account everything you have asked for)
or the EPBB calculator and compare them. 

PVWatts breaks everything down into two steps: (1) the microclimate,
orientation, array type (fixed, or tracking) and P-stc, and (2) inverter
efficiency, ac and dc losses, module mismatch, soiling, shading, etc. I
think that the algorithms behind PVWatts are pretty straightforward, and in
the case of step #2, it is pretty much a series of multiplicative factors.

Let me drop in one question, If PV mfgr XYZ says that their P-stc numbers
are +0 / -3%, how do you translate that into a module mismatch percentage?

But ultimately you have to take into account that a given year’s weather
differs from the 30 year mean by +/- 6% (experts correct me here, and if you
do please introduce the concept of standard deviation), so don’t let your
customer pin you down based on 1 year’s data.

Bottom line: take a close look at PV Watts and consult with the folks at
NREL.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:17 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] insolation v. actual output

Could someone please provide me with that generally accepted equation when
it comes to estimating AC output from a PV array versus the STC rating?

That is, I’m looking for that equation which estimates the losses due to mod
mismatch, soiling, wire losses, etc., etc.  I’ve got someone who mistakenly
expects their PV array to put out 90 or more percent of the STC rating.

Thanks,
marco



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[RE-wrenches] Supply Side Tap Overcurrent Protection

[Peter Parrish]

Bill and others. I don’t remember what type fuses are needed in conjunction
with the AC disconnect. 

 
- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 


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[RE-wrenches] UL and Grid-tied Battery Back Up Systems

[Peter Parrish]

Are there UL testing procedures for Grid-tied Battery Backup Systems, such
as the Xantrex XW systems and the Outback GVFX systems? The reason for my
inquiry is that the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power intends to
require that ...applicants installing Battery Backups on their solar
systems to submit an Operational Listing detailing a precise list of steps
of what were to happen if the LADWP grid were to lose power.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 


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[RE-wrenches] Affordable, Quality Thermometer

[Peter Parrish]

I have been looking into the possibility that a relatively new weather
station in the Los Angeles area -- a RAWS station to be precise -- is
consistently recording temperatures about 5 deg F higher than actual. I have
been basing my opinion using a standard Hg/glass thermometer and a IR gun.
Both of my units usually agree to within 1 degree (rarely 2 degrees).

What I would like to know is if there is an affordable gold standard
thermometer out there for purchase. Presumably its calibration would have to
be traceable to a NIST standard of some sort. I am looking for less than +/-
1 deg F resolution and accuracy. The temperature range I am primarily
interested in is 70 deg F to 115 deg F, and 15 deg to 70 deg F would be
icing on the cake. 

I would settle for something that I could read and record the data by hand.
If there was a version that had a interface to a laptop or smart phone would
be great 

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] T-240 transformer

[Peter Parrish]

Please call Elie at (323) 258-8883. He's my office admin and he can tell you
where we purchase this puppy, both with and without the enclosure! I believe
it's SunWize but I'm not sure.

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 2:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] T-240 transformer

HI all,

I had a customer burn up a T-240 auto former.

Anyone know if you can buy just the replacement transformer and if so whats
the part number.

I couldn't even find a T-240 on  either Xantrex or Schneider's web sites?

I can fit in a Outback X-240 if needed, I measured but would be nice to the
have the easy install part.

thanks

jay

peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[Peter Parrish]

You’re right, Todd, there is often a space limitation. But overall, the 
tankless approach is more economical, eliminating the need to keep 80 odd 
gallons of water perpetually up to temperature. Remember the solar heated water 
is make up water and can contribute to the temperature of the traditional 
water heater only while hot water is being used. So, my guess is that 1/2 of 
the day in a residence the traditional tank is keeping water up to temperature 
for no apparent use.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885  
 
 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd Cory
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

I know this was not the question, but this whole thread is predicated on the 
use of a demand hot water heater. Unless there is a space limitation, why would 
this be done over a traditional tank unit?

Todd



Bill Loesch wrote: 

Kris, 

Boiler manufacturers today get starry-eyed when their machines are able to 
provide a 10:1 turndown ratio. Even the venerable natural draft Bosch 125BS * 
provided a better than 4:1 turndown ratio and all the condensing powervent 
units compared below regularly offer 10:1 and some better than 20:1. With each 
benefit comes a disadvantage, like with current production cars, serious 
repair/maintenance takes place primarily at the dealer since they are usually 
the only ones to pony up for the multitude of specialized test equipment. I 
find it a bit of backward progress to have to tell someone that the reason they 
don't have reliable hot water is because they don't have the current software 
update (due in no small part to the marketing gurus who have no qualms about 
using the customer as the proving grounds for their product). Many plumbers 
have no clue to the workings of a combustion analyzer, a necessary tool for  
negative pressure gas valve tuning and replacement (and a multitude of other 
tasks where the blue flame is no longer sufficient to be able to deliver 
optimum performance). 

Your Takagi needs AC power to (in order of decreasing current requirements for 
a generic power vented tankless) 
   power the freeze protection heating elements 
   run the primary combustion fan 
   run the secondary combustion fan 
   provide control to 
   gas valve 
   water valve 
   control board (oftentimes with digital display) which provides the logic 
and timing circuits for the multitude of sensors and limit switches and remote 
controls and wireless remote controls etc., etc. 

Long live the thermocouple. 

My compliments on your simplistic approach to coordinate the solar storage tank 
and tankless. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. 

Bill Loesch 
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 



PS I reiterate, despite other RE-Wrenches list comments to the contrary 
about 
modulate to 
zero, NONE of ANY of the Big Five tankless manufacturers that market to 
North America have a low fire rate which modulates to zero or anything near 
it for the very same reason that you will never get a trickle of hot water 
out of any tankless water heater. (~0.5 gpm minimum activation flow 
requirement) 

Comparing condensing heaters with ~200,000 max BTU/h input 
Bosch GWH C 800 ES 19,900 BTU/h 
Noritz NRC 111   11,000 
Paloma   no condensing heaters 
Rinnai RC98HPe 9,500 
Takagi T-H2 13,000 

Thanks for your patience, I hope it was not too technical. 

- Original Message - From: Peter Parrish 
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 
To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:37 AM 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW 



We have a SDHW client that wants to replace his old water heater with 
a new tankless water heater. We do a SDHW system about once a year, 
and only for clients that are getting a PV system from us to begin 
with. So this is not a 
big business line for us and we are behind the curve in terms of 
understanding the latest technologies. 

As I remember from an excellent workshop that I took about four years 
ago: when used in conjunction with a SDWH system, the tankless heater 
should 

(1) Modulate heat input based on INPUT water temperature 
(2) Be able to modulate down to ZERO BTU/hr 

The only unit I knew of back then was the Bosch 125BS (I believe). 
Today I can't find any bigger units that fit the above requirements. 

Short of using two Bosch 125BS units in parallel, does anyone have a 
solution? 

- Peter 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President 
California

Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's

[Peter Parrish]

I am an infrequent (3/year) designer/installer of grid-tied battery back up
systems. I really like the SunXtender battery line. We can get them for a
good price (contact me off line) here in Los Angeles.

With that, I cannot vouch for cycling them 1,200 times to 80% DoD. That
seems a bit severe. I have a graph of #/discharges vs. DoD for thee
batteries. I will try to dig it up and make it available.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:34 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's

Holt,
Contact Centex Batteries:
Marc Kurth
Centex Batteries, LLC
704 W Highway 71 - Suite B100
Bastrop, TX 78602
Ph 512 308-9002
Fax 877 254-2702
m...@centexbatteries.com
http://centexbatteries.com

for pricing and availability on Concorde SunXtender, now available up
through 2V 1200 A/hr cells.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

On 9/16/2010 10:28 AM, hol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: 
Getting a few survival mode system requests...and of course they want no
maintenance battery bank.I have to smile when I see them flop around on
the floor when I show them the GNB Absolyte pricing..Surrette's ain't
that much cheaper (about $2000 in this case) any one out there spec'd
the S-460-AGM that can give me some feedback?...looking for GNB- like
performance (1200 cycles @ 80%dod tested) for just a bit less money (or am I
just imagining those are oinking noises coming from above?)
 
Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace  Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.com


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[RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for SDHW

[Peter Parrish]

We have a SDHW client that wants to replace his old water heater with a new
tankless water heater. We do a SDHW system about once a year, and only for
clients that are getting a PV system from us to begin with. So this is not a
big business line for us and we are behind the curve in terms of
understanding the latest technologies.

As I remember from an excellent workshop that I took about four years ago:
when used in conjunction with a SDWH system, the tankless heater should 

(1) Modulate heat input based on INPUT water temperature
(2) Be able to modulate down to ZERO BTU/hr 

The only unit I knew of back then was the Bosch 125BS (I believe). Today I
can't find any bigger units that fit the above requirements.

Short of using two Bosch 125BS units in parallel, does anyone have a
solution?

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



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Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason, SunPower and WEEBs

[Peter Parrish]

I think we have made some progress here on the story line. So let’s see if
we can understand what happened due to UL testing changes.

One other random question. I believe that SunPower permits drilling their
frame for the purpose of accommodating the lay-in lug, for example the
outside of the shorter dimension. Can anyone confirm this?

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark
Westbrock
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 3:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason, SunPower and WEEBs

Peter,

The document that you have was correct at the time.  Then, in December of
2008, SunPower issued a tech bulletin which stated that SunPower modules
were no longer listed for use with grounding clips.   This bulletin states
that lay-in lugs are the only grounding option available that will comply
with their warranty.  We continue to nag SunPower about getting their
modules relisted for use with a WEEB or equivalent, but it has not yet come
to pass.

SM does refer to UniRac SolarMount.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark Westbrock
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
NM ER-1J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
office: 575-524-2030
cell: 575-640-2432
westbr...@positiveenergysolar.com
www.positiveenergysolar.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

[Peter Parrish]

Bill (and Chris and Tim),

Be a little bit more careful in your choice of subjects...?

I am shocked, shocked that you would use that tone with me. 

If you would re-read my post, I talked about three things: 

(1) SunPower's no longer supporting the WEEB clip technology and regressing
to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT. 

You are right about the insertion of the star washer between the lug and
module frame. I wonder what SP's response to that might be...

(2) As for SP's comment that they pulled the WEEB clip, due to UL testing
changes. Does anyone close enough to the situation know what this means?

(3) I never mentioned the SP IFF clip. I mentioned the Tyco SolKlip. 

SP mentions the IFF in their literature but do not offer it to their dealers
(as far as I know), and I haven't been able to find it yet in their product
literature, except for a small low-resolution image. I assumed that the Tyco
SolKlip was a different component -- however it may be similar or may be
rebranded by SP as the IFF -- I don't know.

Bonding PV arrays and their supporting structures is complicated subject and
in my experience is one of the more frequently examined aspects of PV
installations by inspectors (along with bonding and grounding the other
components). So it would seem to be an apt subject for discussion by those
of us actively installing PV systems subject to inspection by the AHJ.

- Peter 
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 8:50 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; Tim Zgonena
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

Peter,

Be a little more careful in your choice of subjects. You are talking about
the SunPower IFF clip. I have not heard this story, but I don't doubt it.
There have been significant changes at UL and ETL, the two largest listers
of PV modules, in the area of evaluating grounding equipment for PV modules.


Unfortunately, the shift to overly conservative approaches to module
grounding has caused huge problems with field installations. To make matters
worse, installation manuals from PV modules have been required to get
extremely specific about the only methods allowed to ground and bond the
module frames. This conservative approach has shut the door on many methods
that are far superior to the methods shown, because of the cost of
evaluating these products or due to lack of cooperation between UL and ETL.

Finally, many of the module manufacturer's installation manuals, the ones we
are supposed to believe, actually violate the listings of the products they
recommend. The ILSCO GBL-4DBT lay-in lug is the most famous example of these
mistakes. Several prominent installation manuals state that a stainless
starwasher must be installed under ILSCO lug. Although this will work, it is
a violation of the listing of the lug. Yet it is in the installation manual
and it is one of only a very few options--and it is wrong. What are we to
think of this whole situation? It is out of control and messed up.

The problem lies in the poorly worded UL1703 that has not been updated in
this area since the changes in application of the standard started some 3 or
4 years ago. There have been several attempts to get this problem resolved,
but the attempts have not made it to fruition. There is a new movement afoot
to deal with this once and for all, but I'm still a little skeptical.

Bill.


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:49 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

We were informed a while ago that SunPower no longer supports their
version of the WEEB clip due to UL testing changes. (unspecified) and
appears to have regressed to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT lugs with SS star washers,
lock washer, nut and specific torque requirements.

Most people I have spoken with feel that the lug approach, though a
competent means of bonding PV modules, is awkward and time consuming,
compared to the WEEB clips.

What happened wrt UL testing and how is CSA listing affected?

I seem to remember a video showing a conventional lug-based bond fail under
test as par of a WEEB promo. I hope I can find it and take a look at it
again.

There also is a Tyco SolKlip that SunPower is apparently looking at but no
word yet from SP, and it is not clear that the SolKlip has been affected by
UL testing changes.

Any info on the UL testing changes would be much appreciated.

- Peter

[RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

[Peter Parrish]

We were informed a while ago that SunPower no longer supports their
version of the WEEB clip due to UL testing changes. (unspecified) and
appears to have regressed to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT lugs with SS star washers,
lock washer, nut and specific torque requirements.

Most people I have spoken with feel that the lug approach, though a
competent means of bonding PV modules, is awkward and time consuming,
compared to the WEEB clips.

What happened wrt UL testing and how is CSA listing affected?

I seem to remember a video showing a conventional lug-based bond fail under
test as par of a WEEB promo. I hope I can find it and take a look at it
again.

There also is a Tyco SolKlip that SunPower is apparently looking at but no
word yet from SP, and it is not clear that the SolKlip has been affected by
UL testing changes.

Any info on the UL testing changes would be much appreciated.

- Peter

  



 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] RFI from MPPT Charge Controllers

[Peter Parrish]

About a year and a half ago we did a few installations on flat concrete tile
roofs. We used both the GE product and the Sharp product. We liked the Sharp
product a little better.

We are now being asked to begin working with a client who is about 6 months
away from new construction and is looking at roof options and PV. He is not
set on the roof type but flat concrete tile is among his options.

Does anyone have direct experience with PV products that integrate with flat
concrete tile? I don't even know if Sharp and GE still manufacture their
products, and I heard something about Suntech coming out with a plastic
famed product but I would be very wary of that approach.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 


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[RE-wrenches] PV Modules Compatible with Concrete tile roofs

[Peter Parrish]

About a year and a half ago we did a few installations on flat concrete tile
roofs. We used both the GE product and the Sharp product. We liked the Sharp
product a little better.

We are now being asked to begin working with a client who is about 6 months
away from new construction and is looking at roof options and PV. He is not
set on the roof type but flat concrete tile is among his options.

Does anyone have direct experience with PV products that integrate with flat
concrete tile? I don't even know if Sharp and GE still manufacture their
products, and I heard something about Suntech coming out with a plastic
framed product but I would be very wary of that approach.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Testing LSAs

[Peter Parrish]

I would think that an ohmmeter set to the 10 Mega-ohm setting (or the
highest setting possible), would be the first test. I would like to see
something on the order of 750 k-ohms (3/4 of a mega-ohm).

But the system should be tested at a higher voltage, than that available
from a DMM. Apply 240 Vac and measure the RMS current. It should be should
be 0.3 mA or less.

Finally, these puppies really need to be tested at much higher voltages,
perhaps someone knows how to use that megohmmeter to test? What does the
manu recommend, “if suspect, throw it away and buy a new one”?

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher
Schmid
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:30 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing LSAs

What is the best method for testing the integrity of a DC and/or AC
lightning surge arrestor?  Specifically, i use the Delta LA units.  I know
they should be replaced if they look Bar-B-Qued, but otherwise...?
 
Thanks,
Kris Schmid
 
Legacy Solar
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
715-653-4295
sol...@legacysolar.com
www.legacysolar.com 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Loss from Dust on PV Modules

[Peter Parrish]

With most of our systems being sold in an urban setting, we have found that
-- without a doubt -- proximity to a freeway, any freeway, is the single
most important factor contributing to accumulation of dust/dirt.

I can't tell you exactly where to draw the line, but 500 feet puts the
system within the zone, and 5,000 ft (1 mile) puts the system outside the
zone.

One unfortunate customer of ours in Glendale, CA was 550 ft from the 2
Freeway, but no one was aware of the fact because of an intervening ridge.
He needs to wash his panels 3 to 4 times a year to prevent significant loss
of production (10%). This is less of a problem in the winter, and we don't
recommend washing PV panels from November 1st to April 1st.

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] roof-mounted AC combiner box

[Peter Parrish]

Some of the combiner boxes MUST be mounted vertically, other can take up to
a 15 degree tilt, and if my memory serves me correctly (which is a 50-50
proposition) there is one box that can lie horizontal. It should already
have a DIN rail and could accommodate a bunch of touch-safe fuse holders. On
the other hand, what about 4R versions of the familiar sub-panels?

- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk
Herander, VSE
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 6:51 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] roof-mounted AC combiner box

Hello,

I am about to start some larger Enphase systems, and I’m wondering if there
is an  AC combiner out there (outdoor load center, etc) that is listed to be
mounted at an angle(meaning roof angle), ala the Outback DC combiner boxes.
 I want several combiner / discos on the roof and it won’t look very pretty
to have them mounted vertically. Thanks.

Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202  fax 802.863.7908
VT RE Incentive Program  Partner
NYSERDA Incentive-eligible Partner
NABCEPTM    Certified Installer



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[RE-wrenches] Padded equipment cases.

[Peter Parrish]

I seem to remember reading about a source of custom padded equipment
cases, but can't remember when and where I did so. What I am talking about
is a sturdy (e.g. Al) case with closed cell foam in the top and bottom
halves and then a third inner 2 or 3 layer of foam with cutouts for
sensitive equipment. I am thinking of our DayStar irradiance meter, our
SunEye, DMM, IR thermometer, clamp-on ammeter, digital camera and the like.

I am not interested in buying a kit. I would like to specify the outlines
for each piece of equipment and have the cutouts done in a professional
manner.

Has anyone ordered one or know of a source?

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 


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[RE-wrenches] The Genie Lens

[Peter Parrish]

Anybody know anything about these claims?

SolOptics, the solar division of Genie Lens, has created a new lens design
that improves solar PV performance by 12.5 percent. The new thin-film design
can be applied to any PV module, just like a sticker. The new design is
created by the company's ray tracing software that embosses microstructures
onto thin polymer film. That film can then be applied to solar panels much
like tinting film can be applied to a window. In testing, the
microstructures in the lens improved PV efficiency by 10 to 12.5 percent.

I think the claim of a lens is complete hogwash. As for being an
anti-reflective coating, that might work, but reliability would be my
concern (UV, heat, moisture). Think how many tinted car windows you have
seen with blisters all over them?

I am posting this for a client who is a really dedicated solar enthusiast
and occasionally emails me with questions about solar technology.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Temperature Sensors

[Peter Parrish]

If you want to mount it once and not take it off ever again, why not use a
good polyurethane caulk like Sikaflex? No VOCs, no acetic acid. You could
hold it in place with electrician’s tape while it cures which should be less
than 12 hours.

To be 100% sure about using any sort of adhesive, you might want to talk to
module manufacturers about the compatibility with Tedlar.

- Peter


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 7:21 AM
To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Temperature Sensors

Have you tried the aluminum foil type of duct tape with the peel off wax
protective paper over the adhesive. It seems to be virtually impervious to
heat or cold, though I have not tried to apply it to the back of a PV
module.
I keep it on the raft for all sort of repairs that get very hot  wet.

Typically available at sheet metal shops, Home Cheapo, plumbing suppliers, 
some hardware outlets.

Please let us know if this works.

Thanks,  Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
E - d...@solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076
web - www.solarwork.com

Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 7:23 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting Temperature Sensors

Hello Wrenches,

Does anyone have any good ideas for mounting thermocouples or RTD’s to the
back of modules for cell temperature measurements?
I’ve seen electrical tape used (obviously the results were terrible),
thermally conductive epoxy from Omega Instruments ($$) used, some kind of
foil tape (electrically questionable).

Any recommendations?
Bubble gum?

Glenn Burt
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
NYSERDA Eligible Installer

Technical Specialist

Alteris Renewables™
120 Broadway
Albany, NY 12204

Tel:    (518) 512-5154
Cell:   (518) 681-2274
Fax:   (518) 514-1175
Web: www.alterisinc.com

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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[RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated flexible metal cable

[Peter Parrish]

I recently had the opportunity to visit a City of Los Angeles Remote
Automated Weather Station (RAWS). See
http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?s=mtwd=nowspan=24hours

I noticed that the system was wired using a flexible metal cable (1/2). It
had a continuous outer metallic covering that looked to be aluminum. I asked
my host about the cable and he said that he hadn't been involved in the
installation and didn't know much about conduit/cable/wire. The conditions
are certainly damp i.e. outdoors, but I don't know about wet. The cable
runs were completely exposed to the weather.

The cable carried low voltage data and power. I am pretty sure it didn't
carry 120/240Vac, but again my host didn't know.

Does any one know what this cable might be?

If you would like a photo, I could send one off-line.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



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Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

[Peter Parrish]

I think we should be careful in two respects:

(1) We have found “black with white stripe” for #10 USE-2. Since we have not
had a use for anything larger than #10, I don’t know if black with a white
stripe is available for larger gauges. It seems intuitive that “black with a
white stripe” should have superior sunlight resistance than “all white”.

(2) The wire with red insulation might actually be “XLP or CPE” wire, rated
USE-2. The “XLP/CLP” is a polyethylene-based not a rubber-based compound.

One thing I like about the XLP/CPE is that it is slicker than cat shit (and
with a smaller OD for same wire gauge), much easier to pull in conduit even
for the short distances that we typically have between PV modules and the
first j-box.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

It's been years since we ordered it, but we got black, red and white from
Anixter, 1-800-538-5431. Our rep Johnny X2832.
The white fades in our intense sun, but is still adequately gray/white after
15 years.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

On 8/2/2010 10:40 AM, Mick Abraham wrote: 
The sales rep at a wire mfr recently opined that USE-2 colors other than
black will not have the same sunlight resistance.  

I had some red in the field which faded to pink but still looked OK after a
few years...but that's only after a few years, and only OK. White in the
same installation faded to...white but I still am nervous about using colors
after that conversation. 

The latest batch that I bought is straight black; I believe the black stuff
contains carbon black which is the secret sauce for UV resistance. 

Further input from the List would be appreciated. 

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:32 AM, EcoSolar - Eric Andrews
e...@ecosolarnow.com wrote:
YES.  We get ours from PLATT Electric.  Most electric supply houses should
have this wire.  It is definitely nice for your DC source circuits.
 
Eric R. Andrews
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

[Peter Parrish]

Then I agree that the lack of carbon black could be a problem for USE-2
wire.
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

The red is USE-2, RHH and RHW-2, rubber jacket. BiccGeneral (sp?)
Durasheath.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

On 8/2/2010 11:36 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: 
I think we should be careful in two respects:

(1) We have found “black with white stripe” for #10 USE-2. Since we have not
had a use for anything larger than #10, I don’t know if black with a white
stripe is available for larger gauges. It seems intuitive that “black with a
white stripe” should have superior sunlight resistance than “all white”.

(2) The wire with red insulation might actually be “XLP or CPE” wire, rated
USE-2. The “XLP/CLP” is a polyethylene-based not a rubber-based compound.

One thing I like about the XLP/CPE is that it is slicker than cat shit (and
with a smaller OD for same wire gauge), much easier to pull in conduit even
for the short distances that we typically have between PV modules and the
first j-box.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

It's been years since we ordered it, but we got black, red and white from
Anixter, 1-800-538-5431. Our rep Johnny X2832.
The white fades in our intense sun, but is still adequately gray/white after
15 years.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

On 8/2/2010 10:40 AM, Mick Abraham wrote: 
The sales rep at a wire mfr recently opined that USE-2 colors other than
black will not have the same sunlight resistance.  

I had some red in the field which faded to pink but still looked OK after a
few years...but that's only after a few years, and only OK. White in the
same installation faded to...white but I still am nervous about using colors
after that conversation. 

The latest batch that I bought is straight black; I believe the black stuff
contains carbon black which is the secret sauce for UV resistance. 

Further input from the List would be appreciated. 

Jolliness,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:32 AM, EcoSolar - Eric Andrews
e...@ecosolarnow.com wrote:
YES.  We get ours from PLATT Electric.  Most electric supply houses should
have this wire.  It is definitely nice for your DC source circuits.
 
Eric R. Andrews
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

[Peter Parrish]

We got a recent quote of $0.269/ft for black and $0.329/ft for black w/white
stripe #10 in order quantities of 1,000 ft. 

It is CPE/XLP rated USE-2 and RHW-2. What do people think of these prices?

-Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:56 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

The colored USE-2 wiring is UV resistant (as rated) and it is the better
kind (double jacketed.)  I like!
 
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037



From: Dave Palumbo d...@independentpowerllc.com
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 12:14:50 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

My application for #8 and #6 is in conduit from the PV array combiner to the
DC disconnect/inverter. So, UV protection is not important. Better quality
insulation is my concern. We had a couple of spools of #8 THHN/THWN-2 test
below the norm with a Fluke insulation tester recently.

My local CED distributor did track down the white USE-2 for us.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:52 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

Then I agree that the lack of carbon black could be a problem for USE-2
wire.

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

The red is USE-2, RHH and RHW-2, rubber jacket. BiccGeneral (sp?)
Durasheath.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

On 8/2/2010 11:36 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: 
I think we should be careful in two respects:

(1) We have found “black with white stripe” for #10 USE-2. Since we have not
had a use for anything larger than #10, I don’t know if black with a white
stripe is available for larger gauges. It seems intuitive that “black with a
white stripe” should have superior sunlight resistance than “all white”.

(2) The wire with red insulation might actually be “XLP or CPE” wire, rated
USE-2. The “XLP/CLP” is a polyethylene-based not a rubber-based compound.

One thing I like about the XLP/CPE is that it is slicker than cat shit (and
with a smaller OD for same wire gauge), much easier to pull in conduit even
for the short distances that we typically have between PV modules and the
first j-box.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] USE-2 in white?

It's been years since we ordered it, but we got black, red and white from
Anixter, 1-800-538-5431. Our rep Johnny X2832.
The white fades in our intense sun, but is still adequately gray/white after
15 years.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

On 8/2/2010 10:40 AM, Mick Abraham wrote: 
The sales rep at a wire mfr recently opined that USE-2 colors other than
black will not have the same sunlight resistance.  

I had some red in the field which faded to pink but still looked OK after a
few years...but that's only after a few years, and only OK. White in the
same installation faded to...white but I still am nervous about using colors
after that conversation. 

The latest batch that I bought is straight black; I believe the black stuff
contains carbon black which is the secret sauce for UV resistance. 

Further

[RE-wrenches] Congested Panel Problem

[Peter Parrish]

We occasionally run into a dual headache: a congested AND underpowered
service panel.

Case in point a 100A Zinsco main panel with no room for a two pole breaker
for inverter back feed.

Normally we pull two 20A/120V branch circuits out of the main panel into a
subpanel, back feed the subpanel with the inverter output and feed the main
panel from the subpanel. 

The inverter in question is a SMA SB4000. Minimum over current protection is
16.66A (e.g. 20A continuous duty breaker). Otherwise protection needs to be
20.83A (e.g. 25A regular breaker).

So we installed a 100A subpanel, pulled in the two 20A circuits, backed this
subpanel with the inverter via a 20A continuous duty breaker, and fed the
main panel via #8 wire and a 40A breaker.

The inspector has a problem with this approach. Doesn't have a problem with
the 20A breaker in the subpanel, but he objects to the 40A breaker in the
main panel. His reasoning includes applying NEC 790.64(B). I believe the
last sentence of (B)(2) stipulates that the breaker back feeding the
subpanel is the one that counts, not what eventually what breaker back feeds
the main panel.

This inspector also has a problem with the production meter we installed. He
wanted to see the UL Listing on the meter. I called Austin International
(our vendor) about the meter in question (Itron Centron C1S) and they said
that UL doest test meters as they (normally) are not used on the customer
side of the service. Is there another listing for meters that would satisfy
a nit-picky inspector? To make matters worse, we now have in stock both
Itron Centron C1S meters as well as Schlumberger Centron C1S meters. Did
Schlumberger buy out Itron? Or vice versa?

Any help on the main panel calculation and acceptable listings for meter
would be greatly appreciated. 


 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



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[RE-wrenches] #10 THWN-2

[Peter Parrish]

We went through a similar problem with some beach communities here in SoCal.
Because of the high humidity (all winter and summer mornings) they wanted
THWN-2 for all conduit runs (as well as PVC instead of EMT). At first we
were charged a premium for THWN-2 compared to THHN. But then we found a
source at All Phase Electrical Supply Burbank CA (a part of CED) for THWN-2
#10 stranded @ $162.40/k-ft. Brand is En(m?)core Wire. THWN-2 listing is
printed on the insulation.
 
- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] #10 THWN-2

[Peter Parrish]

The dash-two, as an appendage to THWN indicates that the wire, normally
rated for dry and wet locations and 75 deg C, is now rated dry/wet up to 90
deg C.

- Peter


Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mick Abraham
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 9:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] #10 THWN-2

I'm sorry to broadcast my ignorance, but:

Could someone explain to me the significance of the -2 marking? Reply
off-list if you wish to save bandwidth...but other List members may also be
wondering... 

Thanks, 

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I have specified THWN-2 for years, but occasionally will not be able to
source it!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 23, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Peter Parrish
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com wrote:
We went through a similar problem with some beach communities here in SoCal.
Because of the high humidity (all winter and summer mornings) they wanted
THWN-2 for all conduit runs (as well as PVC instead of EMT). At first we
were charged a premium for THWN-2 compared to THHN. But then we found a
source at All Phase Electrical Supply Burbank CA (a part of CED) for THWN-2
#10 stranded @ $162.40/k-ft. Brand is En(m?)core Wire. THWN-2 listing is
printed on the insulation.
 
- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax
323-258-8885  

 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] #10 THWN-2

[Peter Parrish]

Just a minor point: the dash-two appendage brings a wet-rated wire from 75
deg C to 90 deg C. 

If you are not in a locale that argues for wet-rated wire and your specific
application does not argue for wet-rated wire, IMHO it is perfectly
acceptable to use THHN wire (90 deg C rated for damp environments) for
outdoors, attics and other extreme temperature conditions. Of course you
have to use good 3R boxes and rain-tight EMT connectors.

For us, it is easier to purchase and inventory just one wire type for
conduit runs, and we usually get the same price for THWN-2 as we do for
THHN, or close enough. In fact we almost never use #12 either for the same
reason.
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 10:04 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] #10 THWN-2

Mick,
-2 means 90 degrees C rather than 75. THWN-2 thus means that it is wet-rated
at 90C.  That is generally considered Code for arrays, such as if it is run
in NM flex conduit to a traditional module j-box. The j-box area may be
considered to be able to get hot enough to require 90C rated wire. Nowadays
with MC-type module leads, combiner boxes aren't subject to the same high
temperatures on the THWN as when they terminate in module j-boxes, and the
higher temperature rating isn't generally necessary.

Much of what I'm saying here is older John Wiles stuff.
Allan
 
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

On 7/23/2010 10:52 AM, Mick Abraham wrote: 
I'm sorry to broadcast my ignorance, but:

Could someone explain to me the significance of the -2 marking? Reply
off-list if you wish to save bandwidth...but other List members may also be
wondering... 

Thanks, 

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Nick Soleil nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I have specified THWN-2 for years, but occasionally will not be able to
source it!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 23, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Peter Parrish
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com wrote:
We went through a similar problem with some beach communities here in SoCal.
Because of the high humidity (all winter and summer mornings) they wanted
THWN-2 for all conduit runs (as well as PVC instead of EMT). At first we
were charged a premium for THWN-2 compared to THHN. But then we found a
source at All Phase Electrical Supply Burbank CA (a part of CED) for THWN-2
#10 stranded @ $162.40/k-ft. Brand is En(m?)core Wire. THWN-2 listing is
printed on the insulation.
 
- Peter
 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax
323-258-8885  

 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Made in the USA WAS: Picking a Quality Chinese PVModule

[Peter Parrish]

I would add Excel to that list. Everything they design, manufacture and sell
is first rate. I am sure that we all can add to the list. However, as the
product matures and it doesn't need as much engineering support, it makes
sense (to me at least) to have it manufactured with the least cost (and if
that be outside of the US that's fine with me). A more powerful product will
follow on its heels (hopefully designed in the US) and will manufactured
first in the US...and then follow the same trend.

- Peter

 
 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 4:40 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Made in the USA WAS: Picking a Quality Chinese
PVModule

Peter,

FYI, BZ Products, USA manufacturer of fine MPPT and PWM charge controllers
(also located in Saint Louis, Missouri) has no Chinese manufactured boards.
I know of other fine USA solar and related manufacturers who also adhere to
a made in the USA policy. Bravo Frank, et al.

The idea that the US is still even in the top tier of engineering today is
open to serious discussion.

What the US has mastered today is world class marketing, we are no longer a
manufacturing powerhouse, neither can we design/engineer the stuff, but man
can we sell it. We sold soda machines to replace the milk machines in
schools and now have more obese kids than any other first world nation.
Kudos marketing mavens.

Bill Loesch, P.E.
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

For those of you who have not seen Story of Stuff, it is a 20 minute
animation of the pitfalls of marketing, inappropriate resource management,
worker exploitation, and other areas. I recommend it.

StoryofStuff.org


- Original Message - 
From: Peter Parrish peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Picking a Quality Chinese PV Module


 Bob-O

 Your iPhone/Blackberry/Droid was mfgd in China, so was your flat panel
 monitor (no, not your TV, your PC monitor), so was your Xantrex inverter,
 virtually every printed circuit board in every piece of electronics you
own.
 Our only hope as a country is to be the best in engineering and stay that
 way. Love has nothing to do with it.

 - Peter

 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
 California Solar Engineering, Inc.
 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
 Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
 Schultze
 Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:30 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Picking a Quality Chinese PV Module

 If you like buying your oil from the Mideast and think that's a good idea,
 then you will love buying your PV from China.

 On Jul 19, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Peter Parrish wrote:

 We normally take a very conservative approach to accepting new product,
 whether they be PV modules or inverters. As a result for example we never
 gave SunTech much of chance back in 2004, although I must say that our
 evaluation of SunTech was exacerbated by a terrible relationship with
their
 SoCal distributor.

 I believe that we have to jump in and take a hard look at the PV modules
 coming out of China from an engineering point of view. Perhaps the
 discussion will transition off list, but for now I think that we should
have
 a broad discussion as to HOW to evaluate these modules.

 (1) UL and its sister organizations test for safety, no? What are the
 European equivalents to UL and how do they differ in any important
respect?

 (2) Here in California, for grid-tied systems we need CEC listing, which
 normally comes from a NRTL (acronym correct?). I believe that today the
CEC
 listing is based on NOCT and temperature coefficient of power. I
understand
 that TUV is also recognized as a lab by CEC. But for utility scale
projects,
 we won't need CEC listing.

 Beyond that, how do we know if it is a prudent move to purchase 20-50 kW
of
 an off-brand for a limited scale installation?

 I heard that Canadian Solar cells were manufactured from Grade B
silicon,
 compared to Grade A. What can that possibly mean? I spent 8 hours on the
 floor at InterSolar a few days ago, and I didn't get the same answer from
 any two Chinese PV manufacturers--about of any technical question beyond
 what one can garner from the cut sheet.

 Without having any better idea, I have asked one manufacturer to supply us
 with two each

Re: [RE-wrenches] Made in the USA WAS: Picking a Quality ChinesePVModule

[Peter Parrish]

Oops! My Outlook spell-checker turned Extech into Excel. Thank you
Microsoft! - Peter

 
 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 8:02 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Made in the USA WAS: Picking a Quality
ChinesePVModule

I would add Excel to that list. Everything they design, manufacture and sell
is first rate. I am sure that we all can add to the list. However, as the
product matures and it doesn't need as much engineering support, it makes
sense (to me at least) to have it manufactured with the least cost (and if
that be outside of the US that's fine with me). A more powerful product will
follow on its heels (hopefully designed in the US) and will manufactured
first in the US...and then follow the same trend.

- Peter

 
 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 4:40 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Made in the USA WAS: Picking a Quality Chinese
PVModule

Peter,

FYI, BZ Products, USA manufacturer of fine MPPT and PWM charge controllers
(also located in Saint Louis, Missouri) has no Chinese manufactured boards.
I know of other fine USA solar and related manufacturers who also adhere to
a made in the USA policy. Bravo Frank, et al.

The idea that the US is still even in the top tier of engineering today is
open to serious discussion.

What the US has mastered today is world class marketing, we are no longer a
manufacturing powerhouse, neither can we design/engineer the stuff, but man
can we sell it. We sold soda machines to replace the milk machines in
schools and now have more obese kids than any other first world nation.
Kudos marketing mavens.

Bill Loesch, P.E.
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

For those of you who have not seen Story of Stuff, it is a 20 minute
animation of the pitfalls of marketing, inappropriate resource management,
worker exploitation, and other areas. I recommend it.

StoryofStuff.org


- Original Message - 
From: Peter Parrish peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Picking a Quality Chinese PV Module


 Bob-O

 Your iPhone/Blackberry/Droid was mfgd in China, so was your flat panel
 monitor (no, not your TV, your PC monitor), so was your Xantrex inverter,
 virtually every printed circuit board in every piece of electronics you
own.
 Our only hope as a country is to be the best in engineering and stay that
 way. Love has nothing to do with it.

 - Peter

 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
 California Solar Engineering, Inc.
 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
 Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
 Schultze
 Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:30 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Picking a Quality Chinese PV Module

 If you like buying your oil from the Mideast and think that's a good idea,
 then you will love buying your PV from China.

 On Jul 19, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Peter Parrish wrote:

 We normally take a very conservative approach to accepting new product,
 whether they be PV modules or inverters. As a result for example we never
 gave SunTech much of chance back in 2004, although I must say that our
 evaluation of SunTech was exacerbated by a terrible relationship with
their
 SoCal distributor.

 I believe that we have to jump in and take a hard look at the PV modules
 coming out of China from an engineering point of view. Perhaps the
 discussion will transition off list, but for now I think that we should
have
 a broad discussion as to HOW to evaluate these modules.

 (1) UL and its sister organizations test for safety, no? What are the
 European equivalents to UL and how do they differ in any important
respect?

 (2) Here in California, for grid-tied systems we need CEC listing, which
 normally comes from a NRTL (acronym correct?). I believe that today the
CEC
 listing is based on NOCT and temperature coefficient of power. I