Re: [Repeater-Builder] S-Com 7330 Controller

[scomind]

Hi Terry,

The two controllers store and play back audio files in very different ways. 
Here's how it's done in the 7330.

As shipped, the 7330 has about 1,600 standard "words" stored as individual 
sound files. The owner can add up to 13 minutes of recorded audio in the form 
of 1 to 2,000 additional sound files (the recordings are created with a PC and 
sound card, then the finished sound library is loaded into the controller 
through one of its serial ports).

The recordings are internally stored in flash memory as 8-bit, uLaw-compressed 
samples. When a message is played, the samples are converted back to linear 
format and sent to a 16-bit D/A converter and 5th-order lowpass filter.

Each D/A can access the combined stored recordings at any time, which means the 
controller can identify all three transmitters with different voice messages at 
the same time.

73,

Bob

 


Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte, CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505 phone
970-419-3222 fax
www.scomcontrollers.com



 

 

-Original Message-
From: terry dalpoas 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Sep 3, 2010 2:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] S-Com 7330 Controller


  

  
Thanks.  I let him know and he can decide which way he wants to go.
-Original Message-
Date: Friday, September 03, 2010 2:37:11 pm
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
From: "wd8chl" 
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] S-Com 7330 Controller

On 9/3/2010 3:07 PM, terry dalpoas wrote:
> Does anyone know if the voice on this controller use a TI voice synthesizer 
> or if it has the real speech like on the Arcom RC210?  Someone in the club 
> liked how my RLC 1 Plus sounds and he wants one that sounds like it, but less 
> expensive.

Yes, it's "real speech", much like the 210. It also has the means to 
upload sound files (well, they need to be converted), so it can say 
about anything you want it to.




 

  
 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor COS issues.... continuing

[scomind]

Hi Jeff,




>> Here's how we've designed our controllers' COR, CTCSS, and 
>> logic inputs for many years: Feed the COR signal to the top 
>> of a voltage divider. The upper resistor is 10K and the lower 
>> is 4.7K. Feed the junction of the divider to the base of an 
>> NPN such as a 2N3904, 2N, etc. You'll have a 3:1 voltage 
>> divider that in essence multiplies the transistor's 
>> base-emitter drop by three, so the input threshold will be 
>> ~2V instead of ~0.7V. And, you'll have 10K and an NPN to 
>> buffer the outside world from whatever logic IC you're using 
>> for your input port.
>
>Seems that sick minds think alike, Bob :-)

I'm in good company, then...  :-)

Bob

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor COS issues.... continuing

[scomind]

Hi Josh,

You can mod your Micor, but you'll keep running into similar problems when you 
interface your controller with other repeaters. COR outputs can be driven by 
Darlington transistors, LED drivers, squelch ICs, etc., and not all will go as 
low as you want.

Here's how we've designed our controllers' COR, CTCSS, and logic inputs for 
many years: Feed the COR signal to the top of a voltage divider. The upper 
resistor is 10K and the lower is 4.7K. Feed the junction of the divider to the 
base of an NPN such as a 2N3904, 2N, etc. You'll have a 3:1 voltage divider 
that in essence multiplies the transistor's base-emitter drop by three, so the 
input threshold will be ~2V instead of ~0.7V. And, you'll have 10K and an NPN 
to buffer the outside world from whatever logic IC you're using for your input 
port.

If you want a pullup resistor, tie a 4.7K from the top of the divider to +5V.

You'll find this circuit in all our schematics at www.scomcontrollers.com.

73,

Bob



Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte, CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505 phone
970-419-3222 fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




-Original Message-
From: Josh 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 9:57 am
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor COS issues continuing


 

I've been fighting this issue for a while now. I've tried some bandaids to deal 
with it, tried multiple repeater controllers (including one I designed myself 
with an ATMEGA328 Microcontroller (I'll probably be releasing this design as 
open source coming up)... and I'm fighting the same problem everywhere... My 
micor COS signal is weird.

When the squelch is closed, I get right around 8 volts, taken from pin 8 of the 
modified mobile audio/squelch board - the tried and true process just about 
everybody uses. When the squelch opens, I'm at not ground potential, but 
right about half a volt. This isnt really the sort of logic signal I want (I 
want this thing to be dead nuts zero, not half a volt). 

What is the deal here? 

I've tried adding resistors in series to fudge things and cause voltage drop, 
but thats not really even working that well. I've tried the 2n circuit, but 
that doesnt really have a lot to do with this (although a variation of that 
might come into play I suspect)

How do I best solve this so I can get my repeater on the air?? This is very 
close to the last issue I have remaining to solve.

Help / advice is greatly appreciated.

Josh

Re: [Repeater-Builder] active low COR

[scomind]

Hi Scott,

Many controllers have pullup resistors on their COR inputs so that they can be 
driven from open collector or relay contact COR outputs. With that arrangement, 
if the controller is configured for active high and the COR line is 
disconnected, the controller will think the receiver is active.

The best arrangement is the one that works for you. There aren't any standards 
-- except perhaps in industrial control, where there are fewer active low 
circuits due to the possibility of activating a circuit due to a pinched wire.

73,

Bob


Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte, CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505 phone
970-419-3222 fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




-Original Message-
From: scott w 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Jun 3, 2010 2:55 am
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] active low COR


 




Hello to group,
What is the advantage of an active low COR.
 Most I have talked to say they have their controllers set that way, so I set 
mine that way,plus the Maxtrac I am using as a receiver default is active low. 
I simulated a power failure to the reciever and the line went low and the 
transmitter thought it was time to transmit. I also accidently pulled the cord 
from the controller off the back of the receiver and again a low status and the 
transmitter thought it was time to transmit. Im not seeing a benefit of a 
active low COR in those repects. Should I go to active high or since those 
things dont usually happen often leave it LOW..
 Any advice or ideas appreciated..
73s

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Techniques for combining multiple audio sources

[scomind]

 Hi Jeff,

>what are you using? are Arcom? or Scom?

I exchanged messages with Jim. He's building his own control system.

>If your using a arcom, take the jumper out of the delay board headers that 
>jump the audio for each port, bring the audio out line (JP10-2,JP11-
2,JP12-2) from each header into a mixer, run the output of the mixer to the 
audio input pin on the delay board, then just split the output of he delayboard 
however you want to, to the audio input pin on the delay board header 
(JP10-3,JP11-3,JP12-3), then you can set each tx level via the onboard pots.  

>Not sure on the scom, have to look at a schematic.



In the 7330 each RX input has its own audio delay and each TX output has its 
own 3-input mixer with a driver amp and level pot. No mods needed.



73,


Bob



Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte, CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505 phone
970-419-3222 fax
www.scomcontrollers.com



 

 

-Original Message-
From: Jeff Ackerman 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Techniques for combining multiple audio  sources


  

  
what are you using? are Arcom? or Scom?

If your using a arcom, take the jumper out of the delay board headers that jump 
the audio for each port, bring the audio out line (JP10-2,JP11-2,JP12-2) from 
each header into a mixer, run the output of the mixer to the audio input pin on 
the delay board, then just split the output of he delayboard however you want 
to, to the audio input pin on the delay board header (JP10-3,JP11-3,JP12-3), 
then you can set each tx level via the onboard pots.  

Not sure on the scom, have to look at a schematic.  


Thats the concept anyways.


On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Jim (List)  wrote:

 
  

  

I'm in the process of building a repeater that will have multiple ports (3 
different radios).
 
Only one radio be receiving at a time, the other two transmitting.
 
Therefore I have 3 audio sources (from different types of radio, at different 
levels), each being fed to the other two radios and requiring individual 
settings.
 
In the middle of this I want to put a delay board, but to keep the cost down 
only have one.
 
What's the best arrangement for combining the incoming audio, and then setting 
the levels for each TX?
 
Thinking along the lines of a FET audio mixer for each RX, setting all to the 
same level of input to the delay board, then something on the output from the 
delay (would I need another series of buffers, or would three 100k pots do?) to 
adjust the TX level for each radio type?
 
 
Thanks for any advice!
 
 
 
Jim
 

 

  





 

  
 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor UHF Repeater Base 9.6 vdc current requirement?

[scomind]

 Hi Jeff,

>In general I don't like raising the ground on 7xxx series fixed regulators
by adding diodes to what would normally be the ground lead.

You're right, the diode trick is not recommended. National recommends putting a 
voltage divider across the output of the regulator and connecting the ground 
lead to the tap. See:
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM340.pdf.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

 





 

 

-Original Message-
From: Jeff DePolo 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Feb 27, 2010 9:32 am
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor UHF Repeater Base 9.6 vdc current 
requirement?


  

  
> In a station, the 9.6 volt circuitry *could* be run from 12 volts, as 
> long as its regulated. I'm not suggesting someone does that, because 
> the circuits were optimized for 9.6 volts, but I'm trying to 
> make a point.

Point taken, but to add to your cautionary note, there are some circuits
that will not be happy at 12V.  I remember trying to run a Micor PL decoder
off 13V and it did some strange things (i.e. didn't work right/reliabily).
 
> If it were me, I'd just use a 9 or 10 volt three terminal regulator 
> (7809 or 7810) and skip the whole LM-317 or diodes in the ground leg 
> deal. It only serves to make the circuitry more involved , harder to 
> mount, and for NO advantage whatsoever.

In general I don't like raising the ground on 7xxx series fixed regulators
by adding diodes to what would normally be the ground lead.  7xxx series
regulators can (and will) oscillate, which is why adding caps per the
datasheets' recommendations isn't just a good idea, it's mandatory.  My
concern is that putting a diode in series with the ground lead results in
the filter/bypass caps being at a different ground potential than the
device, which may increase the chance of oscillation.

--- Jeff WN3A



 

  
 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] S-COM 5K time & date command

[scomind]

 Hi George,

>Anybody know the command to set the time & date on an S-COM 5K with older 
>firmware?  Possibly v1.5 (I don't have it here in front of me...)  The only 
>owner's manual on the S-COM site is for v2.0.

The command was changed because the software real time clock in V1.x became a 
hardware RTC in V2.0.

The old command was: (PW) 18 (hours 00-23, minutes 00-59, month 01-12, day 
01-31) *.

73,
Bob

 

 


Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte, CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505 phone
970-419-3222 fax
www.scomcontrollers.com

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor repeater audio

[scomind]

Hi Guys,

W0INK studied and reported on that topic some time ago:

http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/ctcsssreject&hpfilters.pdf

73,
Bob



Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte, CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505 phone
970-419-3222 fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




-Original Message-
From: Kevin Custer 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:54 am
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor repeater audio


 

Jeff DePolo wrote: 

I have had 
he opposite experience with the two most recent Micor UHF stations I 
ut on-line. Both have a peak very near to 400 Hz, and roll 
ff several 
B/octave above that. Setting for 3 in/3 out @ 1KHz, I get 
bt 4 out @ 
00 hz, and abt, oh, 1.5 or so at 3K.
nyone else noticed a peak around 400 Hz on a UHF Micor station?
   

You're probably seeing the peak in the PL filter's response.  If you remove
he PL filter and config the A/S board for carrier squelch operation, you'll
robably see relatively flat response up to about 2.5 kHz where the
splatter filter" starts to take over.
--- Jeff WN3A


Jeff is right on the nose here

I have swept the MICOR and MOTRAC PL filters and there is a defined peak around 
400 Hz.  It is likely caused by the self resonance of the 6 Henry chokes and 
associated support components which create the tuned network used in the 
filter.  This can be tamed down (filter made to be flatter in response) to some 
degree by placing a 220K resistor across the choke(s).

See Here:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/plf.html

Kevin Custer

Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT: Our very own Mike Morris in this month's QST!

[scomind]

 >I was looking for a picture of Mike, not a picture 
of a car that Mike took.

Mike's a car thief?!?

73,
Bob, WA9FBO






 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola Tone-Remote system troubleshooting question

[scomind]

Hi Dave,

The systems we've worked on in aviation follow a standard EIA tone format which 
is probably similar to yours. On depressing the PTT bar on the handset, the 
encoder transmits a guard tone burst of 2175 Hz at a high level followed by one 
of several possible?function tone bursts known as F1, F2, and so on. They're 
at?100 Hz increments (2050 Hz, 1950 Hz, 1850 Hz, etc.). Then a 2175 Hz tone is 
sent as long as the PTT bar is depressed, but 20 dB lower than then function 
tone (the levels vary a bit among systems as dial-up tends to be lower than 
leased-lines).

At the receiving end you should hear the 2175 and function tone bursts followed 
by the quieter 2175 -- it's quite noticeable assuming you're listening ahead 
of?the filter provided in the Tone Remote Adapter.

Perhaps the encoder or the decoder has drifted off frequency.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO


-Original Message-
From: ve7ltd 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:22 am
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola Tone-Remote system troubleshooting question






All,

I am trying to help a local group with a remote TX/RX site they have which is 
remoted to their office with a leased phone line and some Motorola tone remote 
equipment. I know the radio end has a Motorola L3276A adapter, and the office 
end has a "telephone style" handset (don't have the model number).

As of last week, this system will no longer transmit. It still receives fine, 
but will not activate the PTT on the remote radio, or at least there is no 
transmitted signal. The fact that is receives tells me that at least the line 
is intact.

I have not yet been to the remote site (several miles away) to look at the 
radio, but I want to know a little more about this tone remote system before I 
go:

1) Can I plug a regular telephone into the pair to monitor the signaling?

2) How is the signaling done for TX and RX on the 2 wires? 1950Hz tone or 
something similar?

3) What should I hear on the line when the PTT on the handset is pressed?

4) Is there a way to passively monitor the leased line audio for the signaling 
from either end with my HP 8920A service monitor?

I don't fully understand the concept of balanced lines, and I don't want to 
damage any of the equipment by connecting something I shouldn't to it.

Any help would be appreciated!

Dave Cameron - VE7LTD
IRLP System Designer

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone ever used this repeater controller?

[scomind]

Hi Bob,

This may or may not apply, but "chip capacitors",?also known as?MLC 
(multi-layer ceramic) capacitors,?can fail from stress cracking?if?unevenly 
heated during the soldering process.?For this reason MLC?manufacturers advise 
against?hand soldering as the?fractures can be hard to see -- and the?failure 
can show up?weeks or months later.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO
S-COM, LLC



-Original Message-
From: n...@no6b.com
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 9:17 am
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Anyone ever used this repeater controller?






At 3/27/2009 07:36, you wrote:
>Bob, I've been considering getting one of the NHRC controllers for a GE 
>MVP. Are they dependable, or like your email mentions, having some 
>occasional failures?

IMO, no. Our NHRC-micro has failed 3 times. The first time NHRC was nice 
enough to repair it under warranty, but the 2nd time they stopped answering 
e-mails, so I fixed it myself as well as the 3rd time a couple of months 
ago. Each time the problem was a bad chip capacitor. On the last failure 
the chip cap shorted the V+ line, vaporizing a trace as well as some of the 
board material. I managed to fix it but it's barely hanging on now.

The repeater itself is installed in a rather benign environment (3 story 
medical office building) & I've been told there hasn't been any lightning 
in the area during the entire time it's been in operation. Also nothing 
else in the system suffered any damage during this time, including the 
Astron power supply, which never crowbarred. So my conclusion is that a 
bad batch of chip caps found their way into this unit. Given this 
conclusion & NHRC's failure to communicate with me on the 2nd failure I 
can't recommend their products, & have been looking for a non-NHRC 
replacement controller that would fit in the multi-freq area of an 
MVP. Looks like we finally have something available in the RC-99.

Bob NO6B

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Kerchunk

[scomind]

Don,

>And?when are the?existing repeater owners are going to *SEE* new additions in 
>programming to the?7330 SCOM controller?

There has been a series?of?software?upgrades for the 7330 since its 
introduction,?and the latest will be coming out as soon as one last item is 
fixed.

Be aware that?we have a separate list for?S-COM 7330 owners?for the purpose of 
discussing?the latest upgrades, improvements, and status --?just like the other 
controller companies have for their?newest products.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Kerchunk

[scomind]

Hi Don,

>and where in the Heck did this Word KERCHUNK Originate from We all know what 
>it means 

Early tube-type?repeaters?used large relays?to key the transmitter. When 
someone keyed and unkeyed the repeater the result really was a loud?"kerchunk" 
at the site. It led to what we now call "courtesy delays" -- the idea being if 
there was another transmission soon after the first the transmitter would not 
have to drop and pick up again. It saved tubes as well as relays.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Kerchunk

[scomind]

Hi Kim,

>If the repeater has been inactive for a while, when it first transmits it 
>sends its I.D.? Since I don't want to be 'washed out' by the I.D., I kerchunk 
>the repeater.? Once the I.D. has finished, or the I.D. has not been sent, I 
>will then put out my call to see if anybody's on the air.

The?controller's software algorithm?can take care of that. Ours wait?for the 
end of the?initial transmission?before sending the ID.?If?you kerchunk, you'll 
hear an?ID. But if you?identify?yourself instead, you'll make only 
one?transmission -- and there won't be another ID if there are no subsequent 
key-ups.

73,

Bob, WA9FBO
S-COM, LLC
www.scomcontrollers.com

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Astron P/S question

[scomind]

Hi Mark,

Bypass the gate of the crowbar SCR with .001uF to ground (and put it?very close 
to the gate).?As mentioned previously,?RF is getting into your crowbar 
circuit?-- this is a fairly well-known problem.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO


-Original Message-
From: n9wys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:22 am
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Astron P/S question






Hi, Bob. Long time, no chat!

The Astron P/S only supplies the PA - all other items in the rack have their 
own power supplies, but I can still see where I may have exceeded the MICOR 
supply current limits.

Other than that, I've been told to check al the coax jumpers to ensure they are 
in good order... to eliminate any RF issues.

I do access to a 120A switcher that I may try and see what happens.

Mark - N9WYS

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
Bob M.
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:54 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Astron P/S question

I've had DMMs also go nuts at my site too. Luckily the Astron supply hasn't had 
that problem yet.

The fuse usually blows when something catastrophic happens. One such thing is 
when the output voltage goes too high and the built-in SCR crowbar fires. It 
shorts the supply immediately, and the excess current usually causes the fuse 
to blow. Sometimes it also causes the diodes to short out, and they end up 
blowing the fuse. RF getting back into the supply can trip the SCR. Even RF 
riding on the supply lines can cause the voltage that the SCR sees to be high 
enough to trip it, even though it may not show up with a meter or even a scope. 
You've probably done all you can with the ferrites unless you missed the wires 
going to the SCR. On some supplies it's mounted to the chassis and has fairly 
long wires (just waiting to pick up RF) running to it.

You'd be better off with ANY kind of unregulated power supply, such as what you 
had with the MICOR supply. Ferro-resonant transformers usually aren't 
susceptible to such RF problems, and there's nothing electronic such as a 
crowbar inside to trip and blow the fuse. This doesn't explain why your MICOR 
supply blew its fuse, unless you exceeded the output current capability. Most 
MICORs were only rated up to 100 watts, and the supplies probably are good to 
25-30 amps MAX; it seems that your PA is already exceeding that. Then you tack 
on a receiver, exciter, etc, and you've gone past the limit for the MICOR 
supply. Even an MSF5000 supply would be strained to handle that much current; 
that's why the bigger stations have TWO supplies, one for each PA, and the VHF 
stations have 28V supplies in them.

Solutions? You might consider a battery and a charger that's strong enough to 
keep the PA happy, to run just the PA. Split everything else off and run that 
on another smaller supply. Consider a switching regulator supply, rather than a 
linear regulator supply, to run the rest of the equipment.

I know that some of the high power amps are now being built to run on 24-28VDC. 
This cuts the current consumption in half and they can be run with switching 
supplies.

Let's hope Skip comes aboard here. I know he's had experience with these units.

Bob M.
==



 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Good Repeaters for UHF Ham Band

[scomind]

Hi Derek,
 
>We replaced the FR-4000 with a Kenwood 850 only because after 3  people
trying for an entire saturday afternoon, we couldn't get the  FR-4000
to play with an SCOM 7K controller. 
 
Can you supply some details of the problem you had?  We've always glad to 
help when asked.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Zetron SCU controller

[scomind]

Hi Ian,
 
>Does anyone have any info on the unit in question that generated  those 
tones? I'd love to find one - just for memorabilia.
 
That tone format has been around for a long time in  mobile radio (Motorola 
Quik-Call I) and is still being used in  aviation (ICAO SELCAL) to page 
aircraft on the company  channel. A chime informs the flight crew that a  
message 
follows (in case the volume has been turned down -- it happens  when you have 
three radios going... :-).
 
Aviation uses SELCAL on VHF-AM and HF  channels, but on HF the tones are sent 
with amplitude modulation to ensure  proper decoding while the conversations 
take place on  SSB.
 
Our air/ground interconnect and 7330 repeater  controller support SELCAL 
because commercial customers still use  it.
 
73,
Bob

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com

**New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Vertex vs. Kenwood

[scomind]

Hi Guys,
 
Thank you to all who responded to my inquiry, through the list and  
privately, for your insight. The tech committee now has more info on which to  
base its 
decision.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO



**New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Vertex vs. Kenwood

[scomind]

Hi Joe,

>I'm still trying to comprehend why you would need replacements just 
because a site is more quiet. If they work at the crowded site, they 
should work fine at the quiet one.


That's just it --?they don't work all that well at?this mountaintop site with 
literally hundreds of RF sources. Since we have an opportunity to sell them, it 
seems like a good time for an upgrade. But if K is no better in this situation 
than V, you're right, we're going down the wrong path.

This is a club that went from Micor vintage equipment that was showing its 
age?to Vertex and now?has an opportunity to change once again. The bias is 
toward new, low-maintenance gear rather than refurbished old commercial gear.

73,
Bob

-Original Message-
From: MCH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 9:50 pm
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Vertex vs. Kenwood






I'm still trying to comprehend why you would need replacements just 
because a site is more quiet. If they work at the crowded site, they 
should work fine at the quiet one.

Joe M.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> My club has some 3-year-old VHF and UHF Vertex repeaters at a high-RF 
> site. A possible deal would move them to a much quieter site, and if 
> that happens we'll need replacements.
> 
> Members of this list have consistently shown a preference for Kenwoods, 
> and it appears both brands are priced about the same. However, I'm 
> concerned that much of what has been posted falls into the true believer 
> category, and this decision must be based on technical data. How about 
> it, RF gurus? If you have facts, please spill 'em.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 73,
> Bob, WA9FBO
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? 
> Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and 
> calculators 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1703 - Release Date: 10/2/2008 
> 7:46 AM


 

[Repeater-Builder] Vertex vs. Kenwood

[scomind]

Hi All,
 
My club has some 3-year-old VHF and UHF Vertex  repeaters at a high-RF site. 
A possible deal would move them  to a much quieter site, and if that happens 
we'll  need replacements.
 
Members of this list have consistently shown a preference for  Kenwoods, and 
it appears both brands are priced about the  same. However, I'm concerned that 
much of what has been posted falls  into the true believer category, and this 
decision must be based  on technical data. How about it, RF gurus? If you 
have facts, please  spill 'em.
 
Thanks!
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: CTCSS highpass filter paper

[scomind]

Hi All,
 
Please note some items that should be considered when  making a "commercial 
version" 2175 notch filter.
 
Not all remotes and consoles generate a precise 2175 Hz tone. Older  units 
use LC oscillators that can drift, while newer ones are crystal  controlled and 
are more accurate.
 
A switched capacitor filter IC has a tolerance, expressed as a clock  to 
corner ratio, which can be as much as 1.5%.
 
So you have a encoder that shifts and a decoder that shifts. How do you  
guarantee that the notch has sufficient depth, say, 50 to 60  dB, regardless of 
the encoder brand or age so that the operator  doesn't complain about the tone 
in her ear?
 
Rather than build an adjustable decoder, which needs to be  calibrated and 
has insufficient temperature stability, you build a  crystal-controlled 
decoder. 
And you choose the Q of the filter so it  delivers a notch of sufficient 
depth over a sufficient range of  frequencies.
 
And since it's a sampled data system, don't forget the antialias and  
reconstruction filters.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO
S-COM, LLC
 
 
In a message dated 9/18/2008 7:31:15 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Walter, that same chip could easily be built up on a small circuit  board to 
give a 2175 notch, with a very sharp response. Could probably build  one up 
for $20 or so.

Joe

--- On Thu, 9/18/08, ka1jfy   wrote:

From: ka1jfy  
Subject: [Repeater-Builder]  Re: CTCSS highpass filter paper
To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]:  ReTo:
Date: Thursday, September 18,  2008, 3:17 PM


 
Not real interested in a PL filter, but my agency [hello Joe M] would  
be REAL interested in a commercial version of the notch  filter.

We currently put either a Vega passive [$150] or Midian  active [$60]
2175 notch in every repeater we build up.

Walter  KD7BJJ
Phoenix,  AZ








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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS highpass filter paper

[scomind]

Hi Joe,
 
>The best PL filter I ever saw was one I built out of a digital SCF  design a 
couple of years ago.
>I realize that the paper is referencing commonly available products,  but I 
wish someone
>would make this thing up for sale.
>
>Here is a link to the data sheet:
>
>http://www.mix-http://www.mix-http:/
 
To make a standalone CTCSS removal filter you'll  need the SCF and a clock 
source. To be safe, I'd also add an  antialias lowpass filter ahead of the SCF 
(it's a sampled-data device) and  a smoothing filter after the SCF (to remove 
the stairsteps from the  resulting sampled waveform). The part you mention is 
available in both 100 and  1000 clock-to-corner ratios, and presumably the 
sampling is fast enough to  not cause problems in a narrow voice passband, but 
I'd 
overengineer it  anyway.
 
We use an MF6 lowpass SCF in the 6K and 7K  controllers to turn 
digitally-generated tone square waves into sine waves. The  MF6 has extra op 
amps built in 
that can be used for the pre- and post-SCF  filters.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO



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[Repeater-Builder] CTCSS highpass filter paper

[scomind]

Hi All,
 
There was a discussion on Repeater-Builder a while ago about the advantages  
and disadvantages of various commercial CTCSS highpass filters.
 
S-COM's analog guru, Virgil, W0INK, did a careful analysis of five  common 
highpass filter designs: Comm Spec TS-32, Comm Spec TS-64,  Micor PL, MSR2000 
PL, and GE CG. The results are certainly interesting.
 
His paper can be found at _http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/ctcs
ssreject&hpfilters.pdf_ 
(http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/ctcsssreject&hpfilters.pdf) 
 
Enjoy!
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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[Repeater-Builder] Re: [SCOM-Controllers] Re: Repeater controller suggestions (was Re: [Repeater...

[scomind]

Hi Don,
 
>If any of you  remember the date when the 7330 was first announced in 
comparison to today's  date, you'll recall that it's been quite a few years.
 
No, the 7330 is a  recent design. But besides the 7250 (the forerunner of the 
7330), there  were two other successors to the 7K that I (regretfully)  
discussed in public. First there was an 8-port -- a real thing of beauty  -- 
with a 
ColdFire processor and two TI DSPs. I halted it when it became  clear we 
would never recover the huge development costs, but not before  investing the 
equivalent of an H2. We then lowered our sights and  worked on a 4-port with 
dual 
16-bit processors. Same problem. It was  only when WA1JHK suggested we use an 
FPGA to do the heavy  lifting in hardware rather than software that things 
turned around.  That third attempt worked, and we now have a terrific platform 
for all  sorts of future projects. Today we don't build monuments to technology 
or  go crazy trying to serve a small sub-segment. The job is to offer the  
best value (as in "features per dollar").
 
>So, where is  the controller headed? What new features in the software are 
we going to  see?
 
V1.1 comes out this weekend with fixes for the reported bugs to  date and a 
huge increase in vocabulary. Top items on the next couple  releases are message 
routing and the ability to add user sound files. The  wish list is huge -- 
just ask Dave. I won't even speculate on when most of the  items on the list 
will be finished.
 
>One thing  that I can say to you and everyone else is that the SCOM products 
are well  engineered, and that when hooked up correctly to a repeater, the 
audio is  fantastic. I can't tell you how many users of my machine have 
commented on  that.
 
Thank you, I  appreciate that. Audio quality has always been the  topmost 
goal.
 
>Perhaps you  can share some upcoming ideas about the controller with the 
groups.
 
For now, we're  keeping most of that internal to the 7330 owner list. We'll 
open it up a bit  later.
 
73,
Bob






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Re: Repeater controller suggestions (was Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Looking ...

[scomind]

Mike,
 
>NEITHER the ARCCOM or  the SCOM 7330 will work if you intend to do anything 
more than fairly basic  things.. a repeater, a remote base on a fixed freq, 
etc,  etc.
 
"Fairly basic  things"?
 
If you think this stuff is  easy, you haven't investigated what it takes to 
make one controller run  three separate repeaters with 100% fully independent 
features -- and  do it cheaply.
 
I appreciate that your big thing is  remote rig control, but: (1) It's 
neither trivial nor always desirable to  put those kinds of rigs at repeater 
sites; 
(2) Users aren't that crazy  about running some complex remote rig with 
nothing but a DTMF pad for an input  device and CW or speech for the output 
device; 
and (3) Internet remote control  makes so much more sense than tying the rig 
to a repeater. There've been several  articles about how to build such stations 
on nice sites for use by  club members that are apartment dwellers.
 
73,
Bob   

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: Repeater controller suggestions (was Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Looking ...

[scomind]

Hi Bob,
 
>My recommendation for a 3-port controller is the SCom 7330. It's a bit  
>more expensive that the RC-210 but IMO is of higher quality. All ports  
>have dedicated hardware (tone & CTCSS generators, voice,  etc.).
 
Apples-to-apples:
 
An RC-210 ($325) with an RC210R cabinet ($75) and an RAD  triple audio delay 
board ($75) costs $475.
 
A 7330 costs $459 which includes the cabinet and three  built-in audio delays.
 
 
If you only buy one or two audio delays with the RC210,  it's cheaper than 
the 7330. Otherwise, the 7330 is cheaper.

 
Disclosure: My company competes with Arcom and other controller  
manufacturers in the amateur market.
 
73,
Bob
 
Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Kenwood squelch quality

[scomind]

How could it be more sensitive with CTCSS? I'm not sure I
understand.
de N5ZTW


A CTCSS decoder looks for a precise tone frequency in a narrow band, so it's 
fairly sensitive.?A squelch circuit?looks?for noise (no signal present) and 
loss of?noise (signal present)?in a much broader band?above the voice passband, 
so it's not as sensitive.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

Re: [Repeater-Builder]SCOM 7330 Question

[scomind]

Hi Dave,

The 7330 is an S-COM product. The website is www.scomcontrollers.com.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO


-Original Message-
From: N0ATH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 4:36 pm
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder]SCOM 7330 Question








I would like to find some info on this 7330 - 

is there a web site with it or do you have a 

direct email addy Ken?

NØATH

Dave

- Original Message - 
From: Ken Arck 

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:14 PM

Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder]SCOM 7330 Question






Ok Jim.

I have to say I find that hard to believe as every single 210 that is purchased 
assembled & tested is tested on all 3 Ports for proper operations. If lands 
were missing, it would have never left here. Unless your friend purchased a kit 
in which case we have no control over its construction, so who knows what may 
have happened there.

But fair enough. Good luck with your endeavors and hope your project goes 
smoothly

Ken



At 03:05 PM 8/6/2008, Jim Brown wrote:



One last comment Ken, and I won't pester you any more.  If a partial trade 
would be for an RC-210, I am afraid I am not interested.  I got the RC-110 that 
I have from a friend who was anxious to get a repeater on the air and rather 
than mess with the RC-110, which was not working, he bought an RC-210.  When he 
hooked the RC-210 up he found LANDS MISSING on one of the por
ts for the audio.  It was not just a bad etch, the lands had never been there 
so far as he could determine.  That sure does not speak well of the Quality 
Assurance for the RC-210 product.

I hate to bring all this up, but once bit - twice shy is my motto.

73 - Jim  W5ZIT

--- On Wed, 8/6/08, Ken Arck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


From: Ken Arck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder]SCOM 7330 Question


To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com


Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 3:11 PM



Let's take this offlist. Perhaps we can work something out that is workable for 
us both (for example, might you  be interested in us taking the 110 back in 
partial trade?)



Ken




At 01:04 PM 8/6/2008, Jim Brown wrote:



Ken, my problem is that when a company sells me something that turns out to be 
totally useless and then fails to offer any solution or compensation, it is 
hard for me to have any confidence in their products.



I attempted to join the RC-110 Yahoo group twice and both times I was refused 
entry by the moderator.  I thought there I might be able to find out what some 
other folks were doing to solve the problems.



I understand that some technical problems are difficult if not impossible to 
fix, and that the microprocessor chosen for the RC-110 was a bad choice, but I 
don't understand the attitude of 'you bought it - now go live with it'.  That 
just does not instill any confidence in that companys products.



Sor
ry - but that is my feeling.



73 - Jim W5ZIT



--- On Wed, 8/6/08, Ken Arck <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> wrote: 

From: Ken Arck <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> 

Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] SCOM 7330 Question 

To: Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com 

Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 11:29 AM


At 08:28 AM 8/6/2008, Jim Brown wrote:


>I have a commercial application to monitor the battery status and 

>charge current at a solar site and asked for information on 

>controllers that would allow me to monitor these parameters by 

>requesting a voice readback. I was immediately answered by Ken Arch 

>(sp?) and another RC-210 owner with info on the RC-210 

>capabilitys. As the proud owner of an Arcom RC-110 with it's total 

>lack of support, I am a bit leary of going that road again.


<---Hi Jim. I can assure you that support for the RC210 is not only 

readily available, most of our customers tell us it is exemplary. And 

while true that we no longer support the RC110 (what happened there 

is we are totally unable to obtain support for the CPU system which 

effectively killed the 110), RC210 is available not only from us but 

from the RC210 mail list in Yahoogroups. With literally hundreds and 

hundreds of RC210s in use around the entire world, support is quite 

good from our users as well. 

Ken 

 - - - - - - 

President and CTO - Arcom Communications 

Makers of repeater controllers and acces
sories. 

http://www.arcomcon trollers. com/ 

Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and 

we offer complete repeater packages! 

AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 

http://www.irlp. net 

"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"







___ 








--

President and CTO - Arcom Communications

Makers of repeater controllers and accessories.

http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/

Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and

we offer complete repeater packages!

AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000

http://www.irlp.net 

"We don't just mak

Re: [Repeater-Builder]SCOM 7330 Question

[scomind]

Hi Jim,

I have a commercial application to monitor the battery status and charge 
current at a solar site and asked for information on controllers that would 
allow me to monitor these parameters by requesting a voice readback.? I was 
immediately answered by Ken Arch (sp?) and another RC-210 owner with info on 
the RC-210 capabilitys.? As the proud owner of an Arcom RC-110 with it's total 
lack of support, I am a bit leary of going that road again.

What capability does the SCOM 7330 provide for voice readback and meter face 
configuration for A/D inputs in it's present configuration and software status?


It doesn't have that ability yet.?It has?a 3-channel, 8-bit A/D converter and 
it can send?digital audio files from flash, so the hardware is there. But the 
A/D isn't?supported yet.

>From what we're hearing, looks like the next controller?will need more A/D 
>inputs, and probably needs to be wider.

73,
Bob

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: SCOM 7330 Experiences anyone? (let's have some fun)

[scomind]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the cursory review Skip. I actually sent via the website a list of 
about 6 specific questions about the SCOM 7330 .? Have NOT HEARD A THING back 
from them which is most encouraging.? Perhaps they are going to join the list 
of manufacturers who are going to go out of business.?? They are already acting 
like it.? - Mike

I'm sorry, but?I never got your message. I don't know why -- maybe the website 
message forwarding feature is broken. Send them to [EMAIL PROTECTED], or?go 
ahead and ask your questions?right here and?I'll answer?in front of?everybody.

We are definitely not going out of business. Why would we, with?cutting 
edge?FPGA?technology and?a brand new product? Besides, it's a part-time 
endeavor?involving 5?buddies who are EEs (four of whom are hams). We enjoy this 
stuff and count?our customers among our friends.?We're having fun.?No reasons 
to quit.

Look at the competitive controllers and see if maybe we've broken some new 
ground here. This is a technical forum and we should be enhancing the state of 
the art in amateur communications. While?I've never seen?much interest from 
our?competitors?in discussing the technical aspects of their controllers here, 
we're not shy about that sort of thing. Ask away.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

Re: [Repeater-Builder] SCOM 7330 Experiences ayone?

[scomind]

Hi Mike,
 
>On a quick look at the available controllers around  the SCOM 7330 looks 
like a fairly new kid on  the block.  I wonder if anyone has had any experience 
with this model or  SCOM as a whole?
 
Since I'm a "Member" of S-COM, LLC, feel free  to suspect that my comments 
are slightly biased... and too  long...  :-)
 
Here's the deal. The 7330 has an S-COM-designed SoC  (system-on-a-chip) that 
replaces nearly all the digital circuitry that  controllers normally have, 
with the exception of flash and RAM. The SoC  contains a microprocessor, serial 
ports, parallel ports, various counters  and timers, and similar logic. But 
more importantly, it also contains some  pretty kewl circuitry like special 
sine 
wave  generators and digital audio playback circuits. All of those  circuits 
operate simultaneously and independently of each other, which  means we have a 
three-port controller that can run three repeaters  simultaneously and 
independently of each other. There's no sharing of things  like DTMF decoders, 
tone 
generators, digital audio playback circuits, etc. That  means no repeater hogs 
a resource and makes the others wait until  it's done. Without the SoC, it'd 
be expensive to replicate all those  circuits for each port. (BTW, the 7330 
costs $459, which includes the  cabinet and LED display.)
 
Regarding the software being finished -- it may not  be "finished" for a long 
time! Customers are always coming up with ideas for  improvements. The 7330's 
predecessor, the 7K, had twenty upgrades from 1988 to  2004. We've had five 
upgrades on the 7330 so far, and it's already 'way past the  7K in ability. 
And, being able to load those files into flash  via RS-232 at 57.6K baud makes 
it 
a whole lot less  painful than swapping out EPROMs.
 
Oh, and regarding upgrades: There was a discussion on this list about CTCSS  
reverse burst and how Motorola and Kenwood encoders changed phase at different 
 angles. We added a second reverse burst phase angle to the  7330's feature 
set within hours of that discussion because it  involved modifying the code in 
the SoC and no hardware changes. I  think a lot of controllers will be built 
this way eventually. (We're headed  toward models with more ports because it's 
relatively easy to leverage the  design.)
 
Regarding the complexity of the commands -- we think our command set  works 
great, and I'm sure the other controller manufacturers feel the same way  about 
theirs. If you need some bedtime reading, download the modest user  manual 
(only 360 pages) at 
_http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/7330_userman_v1.0.pdf_ 
(http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/7330_userman_v1.0.pdf) .  And 
to read more about our controller design philosophy, check out 
_http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/scom7330newdirectionspaper.pdf_ 
(http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/scom7330newdirectionspaper.pdf) .  
(Hey, it's tough to 
come up with a command system that handles literally  hundreds of control 
commands and macros when your input device is a lousy  12-button DTMF 
keyboard..  
:-)
 
And speaking of manuals, yes, I know ours can be improved, and I'm working  
on it. Technical writers know that the most useless manual is the one that  
lists page after page of commands with no real "teaching" or explanation of  
why 
the command is of value. I'm fixing that.
 
You asked about S-COM as a whole. We don't advertise much, but I've  been 
building controllers as long as WA6ILQ has, and he's very old..
 
We've shipped well over 4,000 ham controllers, a couple thousand  aviation 
base station controllers, some railroad wayside station  controllers, and other 
neat stuff since going commercial in  1985. And we're looking for more places 
to use SoCs, so if you have an  application, let us know.
 

Finally, as has been pointed out, we (the five of us) do this far  more for 
the enjoyment than for the profit. It's great fun to work with the  other 
design team members and the beta users in the process of creating and  
improving 
the design.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid, WA9FBO,  Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505  voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Voice ID Talent

[scomind]

Hi Rod,
 
The voice of the S-COM 7330 controller (and the Vyex Digital  Audio Board in 
the 7K controller) belongs to a ham by the name of Sean  Caldwell 
(_http://www.seancaldwell.com_ (http://www.seancaldwell.com) ). He gives  price 
breaks to 
hams.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com
In a message dated 7/27/2008 2:03:31 P.M. Mountain Daylight  Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
A few years ago I remember that a professional voice-over  talent was doing 
on-request voice-over work (maybe was even a ham) with a  price break for ham 
radio announcements. 
Anyone know who I’m talking about?  I think he was  from the Carolinas, but I’
m not sure. 
Any leads would be appreciated. 
73! 
Rod Lane 
Amateur Callsign N1FNE 






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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Still looking for an RBI-1; maybe I have to buil...

[scomind]

Hi Guys,
 
>Woohoo, the Doug Hall "Rosetta Stone"! Thanks, Skip.
 
We need to go back a little deeper in  history...
 
I think the format you have is the data going from the controller to  the 
RBI-1. Doug H based it on the dominant format at the  time, which was the 
format 
used by ACC to drive their "frequency  control" shift register boards 
(designed for thumbwheel HTs). Doug made his  input format available to 
repeater 
controller manufacturers in his  "generic" document so we all could make our 
controllers RBI-1-compatible. We  added that feature to our 7K in V2.01. It's 
not 
that big a secret.
 
The output format of the RBI-1, on the other rhand, is the  format Kenwood 
used to control a group of radios in the trunk from a  handset (was it called 
the RC-10? RC-20?) in the driver's compartment. His  box was a protocol 
converter that took the 48- or 56-bit stream from the  controller and make 
Kenwood-speak out of it. Wasn't trivial at the time.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO
S-COM, LLC



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] S-Com 5K V1.3

[scomind]

Hi Bob,
 
>Does  anyone have a hex image of an S-Com 5K version 1.3 that they can send 
to me  ?
 
Version 1.3 was active only from September 1987 to January  1988.
 
Other than upgrading to V2.0, the best I can offer is a V1.5  EPROM in 
exchange for the postage. The differences between V1.3 and V1.5 are  minor and 
are 
described in the 5K manual, available online at the Resource  page at 
_www.scomcontrollers.com_ (http://www.scomcontrollers.com) .
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid, WA9FBO,  Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505  voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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[Repeater-Builder] S-COM 7330 Triple Repeater Controller

[scomind]

Hi All,
 
I'm very pleased to announce that after nine months of beta testing,  the new 
S-COM 7330 Triple Repeater Controller is in production and available for  
sale!
 
A total of 66 units were tested by 54 repeater owners, and the results fed  
back to the design team of five engineers (four of whom are hams). The  
resulting five code upgrades added features and fixed minor bugs, and were 
found  to 
be easy to install in flash memory via the high-speed (57.6K) serial  port.
 
(My personal and quite biased view is that this thing is heads and  shoulders 
above any of our previous controllers, extremely competitive, and  only in 
its infancy due to the large amount of available memory -- and matching  
wishlist of future improvements... :-)
 
We're calling it a "triple repeater controller" to differentiate it  from 
three port controllers that cannot operate three  repeaters totally 
independently. That is, the 7330 will run three  repeaters, links, or other 
radio 
configurations connected in any fashion, as  you'd expect. But it can also send 
different messages (CW,  digitally recorded audio, beeps, or paging tones) to 
all 
three  transmitters at the same time, have different access modes for each 
RX-TX  
path, and much more. In fact, each repeater will think it has its own  
controller, since there's three of everything -- three DTMF decoders,  three 
dual-tone CW/beep/paging generators, three digital audio players, three  CTCSS 
encoders with reverse burst, three digital audio delays, and plenty  of 
additional 
features.
 
We've placed the V1.0 user manual, schematics, a white paper on the design  
philosophy, and other materials on the website, _www.scomcontrollers.com_ 
(http://www.scomcontrollers.com) , for all to  peruse.
 
Oh, yeah, the price: $459 plus $15 for shipping, and that INCLUDES the  1U 
rackmount cabinet with a 28-LED display.
 
As always, thanks for the BW, Kevin.
 
73,
Bob
 
Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, EE/Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers

[scomind]

 
Hi Joe,
 
>The delay board we are going to be using is adjustable 
for 64,  128, 256, 512 or 1024 milliseconds of delay. (NHRC-DAD board).  




That delay board uses the MX609 Delta Modulation CODEC, a device  with a S/N 
ratio of 30-35 dB (at the highest sampling rate; varies  with frequency) and a 
frequency response of 300-3400 Hz (MX-COM document  20480069.004).
 
ICS (_www.ics-ctrl.com_ (http://www.ics-ctrl.com) ) sells the  S-COM-designed 
DADM, a delay board with a S/N ratio of 60 dB and a frequency  response of 
30-5000 Hz. It's also cheaper.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[scomind]

 
Hi Eric,
 
>The world would be a better place if repeater controller  manufacturers
included reverse burst  capability..i




S -- don't tell anybody, but the 7330 supports both "standard" reverse  
burst formats...  :-)
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: MastrII Mobil repeater spur

[scomind]

 
Hi Jim,
 
>Makes a  pretty clean installation, although one
of the controller manufacturers on  here recommended
against using computer serial cables as interconnects
for  controllers




That'd be us. A PC cable consisting of two D-sub connectors and a  long, 
25-conductor cable enclosed within a single shield has a lot  of capacitance 
between conductors and allows a surprising amount of  crosstalk.
 
Years ago we were getting reports that the controllers weren't fully  muting 
DTMF, or there was an echo on the repeat audio caused by the audio  delay, 
things like that. In each case the customer was using a "computer cable"  
rather 
than individually-shielded RX and TX audio lines, and that's what led to  the 
investigation and recommendation.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid, WA9FBO,  Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505  voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Discriminator audio

[scomind]

 
Hi Mick,
 
>I am running a Hamtronics receiver on our 53.090/52.090  repeater.
Should I use discriminator audio or squelched audio from the  speaker.

 
Speaker audio is usually not a good idea. Not only does it have the highest  
distortion of any point along the audio path, but if someone adjusts the  
local speaker pot he'll also be changing the repeat audio level.
 
The discriminator is a good source because it doesn't have those  problems. 
Discriminator audio is preemphasized, so depending on how  you will be handling 
your audio you may have to deemphasize it at the  controller. There's plenty 
of information on the topic on the Repeater-Builder  website.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] S-COM 5K Dump on power glitch.

[scomind]

 
Hi Gran,
 
>I am sure this 5K does not have the V2.0 upgrade.  There  is one other piece 
of information of interest.  In the last two outages  other commercial 
equipment also had programming problems.  I have to wonder  if the 5K is 
susceptible 
to low voltage.  The dropping of a single phase in  the transmission line 
often will give a low voltage like 80V instead of  120V.  The Astron does not 
have a low voltage cut out so I could see the  output voltage dropping from 
13.5 
to say 6 to 8 volts under load.  Could  this cause a corruption of memory in 
spite of the lithium battery?
 
It shouldn't happen. The 5K, 6K, and 7K have similar reset and  memory 
protection systems, which work like this: As the +5V  supply drops, the 
processor is 
forced into reset first, followed  a short time later by the RAM being 
disabled. The coin cell is  switched in to replace the +5V supply as the RAM's 
power 
source.  The current drawn from the cell is very low because the RAM is no 
longer  being written or read.
 
When power returns, the reverse occurs. As the voltage climbs, the RAM's  
power supply is switched from the coin cell to the +5V supply and the RAM  is 
enabled. The processor's reset line is then released and the  processor begins 
executing its program.
 
If you try to run the controller under "brownout"  conditions, +10V regulator 
will lose regulation and output a  voltage that is lower than its input. If 
the +10V regulator can't  supply the +5V regulator with enough voltage, and the 
+5V  output drops by >5%, the protection system kicks in.
 
As extra protection, if the processor ever jumps the track and fails  to 
execute the program correctly, a watchdog circuit will notice this  and reset 
the 
processor. That restarts the program.
 
Since the 5K is quite old it's possible the RAM, the DS1232  (reset), or the 
DS1210 (battery manager) is bad. I suppose it's even  possible that the INIT 
pushbutton is corroded closed so that every reset is  a cold start, but you'd 
know this by listening to the reset message (an appended  CW "C" = Cold Start). 
 Or, the battery jumper is out, or the cell was  installed reversed, or ?..
 
73,
Bob




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Converting the GE MastrII Intercom switch to a Disable...

[scomind]

 
Hi Nate,
 
>Pet peeve alert: Controllers seem to add features, but they're far  
less useful on-site for "control" as they are for "remote  control".
 
I  suppose it's a cost vs. necessity thing, since no  one's at the site most 
of the time. But we've learned about LEDs  -- not only do they help when 
troubleshooting, but controllers sell  better with blinky lights.. :-)

 
>Why AREN'T there some push-buttons on the  front of these things that 
are software inputs to toggle things, etc... no  one seems to ever do 
that! And now that I think about it, I wish I'd have  thought of that 
sooner, for mentioning to the S-Com guys! Oh  well!)
 
Or, bring your laptop.
 
>Hey speaking of "forgetting" the switch -- Dave and Bob were talking  
about adding a feature to the 7330 once, that sounded nifty. If a  
transmitter were disabled, since the front panel LED's are software  
controlled, they were talking about having any disabled TX port flash 
at  a constant rate. Close up the M2 after using Kevin's disable 
switch mod, you  can't see the switch.

Turn the TX off in the controller, you'll see it as  you're closing up 
the Station/rack/the Station/rack/room door/whatever on th
 
It's on the bottomless to-do list.
 
73,
Bob







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Re: [Repeater-Builder] S-COM 5K Dump on power glitch.

[scomind]

 
Hi Gran,
 
>On Superstition mountain in the Imperial Valley we have a S-COM 5K  
that has taken repeated dumps after power line failures. The 
controller  is running off an Astron 35A supply. By dump I mean the 
only problem is that  the controller has to be re-programmed after the 
AC power line failure. Now  I know there are other ways than than the 
13.5V for a glitch to get into the  controller but I would suggest 
power to be the most likely. The battery to  hold up the memory has 
been replaced.




The 5K has a 15V Tranzorb across the 12V  power input to absorb that kind of 
spike. Even without  it, the power input feeds a 10V regulator which feeds a 
5V  regulator, and there's lots of bulk capacitance on both. No spike  should 
be making it into the logic innards. Try powering it from a  different source 
and cycle the power to see if memory is maintained.  My guess is you'll 
continue to see the same problem.
 
I'm suspicious about the memory backup even though the battery was  replaced. 
Could it be that this unit has a DS1643 in the RAM  socket? Many 5K owners 
did the V2.0 upgrade (which involved swapping  the coin cell and supervisor IC 
with a DS1643 RAM/battery/clock  module) and left the old coin cell on the 
board. If so, replacing the  coin cell won't do anything.
 
If the 5K still has the older discrete RAM/battery arrangement, there's a  
push-on jumper to interrupt the memory power that should have been pulled to  
replace the cell. Was it put back in?
 
If the 5K has the V2.0 mod, IC-9 is gone and there are two  horseshoe-shaped 
wire jumpers in its socket. Be sure they're making good  contact (they were 
soldered if we did the mod).
 
The COR, CTCSS, PTT and audio circuits are pretty well buffered  with respect 
to the outside world and I would agree that they're not  likely the problem.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] S Com TPE voter??

[scomind]

Hi Ben,

>I'm looking at a TPE voter one of the list members has. Anyone on here
ever heard of it or know anything about it?

It's not made by this S-COM, anyway.

73,

Bob, WA9FBO
S-COM, LLC

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: MTR2000

[scomind]

 
Hi Eric,
 
>I make no secret of my disdain for "bells and whistles" like clever  courtesy
tones, autopatch, and voice announcements. I work primarily in  commercial
and public-safety radio systems where such "features" have no  place.  



That's certainly an understandable take, but keep in mind most of that  stuff 
can be turned off. Frankly, in newer designs (like our 7330),  you aren't 
paying much for the bells and whistles because those kinds  of features are 
implemented either in a chip that has to be there  anyway (the FPGA) or in 
firmware. The "personality" of the repeater is pretty  much up to the control 
op/owner.
 
Without an external controller, it's fairly difficult to be able to  link and 
unlink a group of co-sited repeaters and transfer commands among  them, for 
example. Granted, that kind of activity may be more ham-oriented than  
commercial.
 
>In my limited experience (40+ years) the majority of  equipment failures 
have been
in the add-ons, not in the commercial equipment. 
 
Add-on equipment often uses very low voltages (especially in the logic  
section) and is perhaps more susceptible to lightning than RF equipment  that 
runs 
on nothing lower than 13.8 V or 24 V. But today's repeaters  have internal 
CPUs and other logic, so perhaps they are no longer more  bulletproof than the 
external controllers.
 
My own 22+ years in the biz leads me to think that controllers have  two 
natural enemies, lightning and customers with screwdrivers. And the  lightning 
issue decreases hugely when you delete the autopatch.
 
A lot of controller failures can be traced to weaknesses in  the design, both 
hardware and software. Maybe mostly software. I don't  see the inherent 
problem with using an external controller other than  a small loss of 
reliability 
from the extra components.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] AM interference on long cable run

[scomind]

 
Hi Jim,
 
>The cable I used was armored with a spiral copper
shield over 5  twisted pair lines. I did try grounding
the shield at one end, and at both  ends with no
results. Putting caps across the twisted pair and to
ground  also did not eliminate the problem, but did
reduce it. I used 600:600  isolation transformers in
the audio input and output lines at the  repeater.

>It all became a mute point when the cable got mowed  in
two during a grass cutting this last summer, and then
we lost the  public IP address and EchoLink was no
longer usable. So any more trouble  shooting exercises
will await the return (if ever) of the public  IP
address.




Since the other remedies haven't worked completely, you might file  this away 
in case the situation arises again:
 
You might be experiencing a ground loop even with coupling  transformers at 
each end due to the capacitance to ground of  the transformers. A common mode 
choke, if it has  sufficient reactance at the noise frequency, can eliminate 
the  noise.
 
A common mode choke is an inductor with a single core  (toroidal is good) and 
two identical windings connected such that  each winding is in series with 
one of the long lines.  The choke goes at the input end with the phasing dots 
on 
the same  side, i.e., either toward the line or toward the equipment  input.
 
The "desired signal" current flows in opposite directions on the two  lines 
and creates opposing magnetic fields in the choke, which cancel. The  desired 
signal never sees the choke and its waveform is  maintained.
 
The "undesired signal" (common mode) current flows in the same  direction in 
both lines and sees a lot of reactance in the choke because the two  magnetic 
fields add. Much of the noise is eliminated.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Hamtronics 6 meter repeater problems

[scomind]

 
Hi Joe,
 
>TA51 transmitter. Here is the real problem. I can only get 2.5Khz  
deviation of clean 1000Hz audio out of the transmitter. I can push it 
to  3Khz, but it gets distorted.

 
 
That transmitter uses an RC phase modulator  instead of an LC phase 
modulator, which means the maximum phase shift is  limited to 90 degress 
instead of 
180. With fewer multiplication stages than  the other models, it'll ouput less 
deviation. 
While the crystal may indeed be bad, you're not  modulating the crystal, so 
it's "motional capacitance" is not a  modulation issue. 
73, 
Bob 
Bob Schmid, WA9FBO,  Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505  voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Dallas Semiconductor Real-Time Clock

[scomind]

 
Hi Eric,
 
>The  Dallas Semiconductor "Nonvolatile Timekeeping RAM" found in many  
popular
controllers, including the Link RLC-1 Plus, is Part Number  DS1643-150.
 
We have a  lot of experience with the DS1643 and its bigger brother, the 
DS1644. The  S-COM 5K uses the DS1643 (8K RAM), and the 6K and 7K use the 
DS1644 
(32K  RAM).
 
A second source for the DS1643 is the STMicro M48T18-100PC1. For  the DS1644, 
a second source is the STMicro M48T35Y-70PC1.
 
>Notice  that the "-150" indicates 150 ns access time. The replacement device
offered  by Dallas/Maxim has either 70 ns or 100 ns access time, and I have
no idea if  the newer device will work properly where a 150 ns device  was
used.

 
As a rule, a faster memory is okay. Slower  isn't.
 
>I see  that the guaranteed accuracy of the DS1643 clock is within +/- 1
minute per  month, and there is no capability to tweak the crystal to get
better  accuracy.
 
That's  right. We've been using these parts for many years and the reports 
from the  field range from excellent to mediocre timekeeping. The controllers  
have "clock tweak" commands that add or subtract seconds and can be called  
from the scheduler program. If one knows how many seconds the clock is  gaining 
or losing in a day, then automatically resetting the clock daily  (or more 
often) makes for a pretty accurate clock.
 
Dallas/Maxim now has a series of timekeeping ICs and temperature  compensated 
crystal oscillators. We're using the DS32KHZ TCXO in the new 7330  with good 
results, so perhaps the temperature at the repeater site has a lot to  do with 
the accuracy of the controller's clock and calendar.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Need recommendation for small repeater controller

[scomind]

 
Hi Bob,
 
>>The new 7330 uses 10 uF ceramic SMT caps to couple each of the  three 
>>transmitter audio outputs and each of the three CTCSS  encoders.
>
>Thanks for the info, Bob. How big are those SMT caps?  I'm wondering if 
>NHRC can retrofit their 1 µF polarized with those, or  perhaps even just 1 
>µF non-polarized.




They're 1812 size (AVX 18123C106KAT2A, 10 uF, 25 V, X7R). Not cheap at  about 
0.46 each in 500-piece reels, but we were willing to pay that rather  than 
use tantalums or 1 uF ceramics.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Need recommendation for small repeater controller

[scomind]

 
Hi Bob,
 
>I know high-capacitance non-polarized caps are hard to come by in SMC  form, 
but controller manufacturers have got to face reality in that many  radios 
bias the mic input.




Done.
 
The new 7330 uses 10 uF ceramic SMT caps to  couple each of the three 
transmitter audio outputs and each of the three  CTCSS encoders.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] AC Line Conditioner

[scomind]

Hi Guys,
 
I don't particularly care for MOVs because of their inherent wearout  
mechanism. When the voltage across a MOV reaches the breakover point, the MOV  
conducts and turns the excess energy into heat. Problem is, its  breakover 
voltage 
then increases and it will allow more of the  transient to pass next time. If a 
MOV sees enough action, the  equipment protection is compromised and you 
won't know it. They are  cheap, however, and better than no protection at all.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Any suggestion on repeater controllers using radio li...

[scomind]

 
Hi Larry,
 
>Any suggestion on repeater controllers using radio link to irlp  repeater 
does not have audopatch...


 
The new S-COM 7330 will do it (_www.scomcontrollers.com_ 
(http://www.scomcontrollers.com) ).
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] AP4800 controller processor

[scomind]

 
Hi Joel,
 
>I thought that may be the other way out, but, know nothing about  
programming proms nor have a programmer, nor anyone in my country to do  such,  
do you 
know someone capable off such, Bob?  any help  will be appreciated. 


 
Programming the micro isn't as big of a problem as locating the  source code. 
I have a one-page "version 1"  document that says source code can be 
purchased by controller  owners, and a one-page "version 2" document that says 
source 
code  is not available. I don't know who Mr. Bell sold his company to, but I  
think that's the guy you want.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] AP4800 controller processor

[scomind]

 
Hi Joel,
 
The AP4800 is a 1994-era controller that used an Intel 8748 or 8749  
microprocessor. Since the controller's operating system was stored in the  
processor's 
internal memory, you'll either have to find a programmed  processor or get a 
blank one and have it programmed by someone who has the  source code.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO
 
 
In a message dated 7/10/2007 12:15:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

For a very long time, I've been looking for the  Micro processor for the 
AP4800 repeater controller.
Originally I bought it from John Bell, before he  took ill, and sold the 
business.  The chip got hit by lightening, I still  have the old one somewhere 
at 
home.  I will really like to get this  controller going again, now that I got 
the repeater TX and RX going, any  help will be greatly appreciated.



 



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Do Anyone Use Their Repeater For This

[scomind]

Hi Chris,

I doubt very many groups use tone pages for non-emergency, 
informational messages like the one you mentioned ("To all TVARC 
members, we will be holding our monthly meeting and swap shop on March 
20, at the Mcdonalds on I-20 in Terrell. We will start at 5:00").

One of the things a modern repeater controller does for you is 
automatically transmit such "commercials" at opportune times.

Sending such a message right after the initial ID wouldn't be too 
obtrusive since no conversation is likely in progress.

Or, if the message is sent a minute after the last transmission, the 
conversation is probably over but folks are likely still monitoring.

Event counters can be programmed to prevent too much of a good thing.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO
S-COM, LLC

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Do Anyone Use Their Repeater For This

[scomind]

Hi Mike,

>I'm not as familiar with the ACC or others, but the Scom has a single 
audio tone source.

The 5K, 6K and 7K had one single-tone generator. The 7330 has three 
dual-tone generators, one for each port.

>There were pagers that used 1+1, ones that used 5 quick tones, ones 
that used a longer first tone, then 5 quick tones, and some weird 
specialized pagers that used the 2+2 format (two simultaneous tones, 
then two more simultaneous tones).

In aviation, that last one is known as ICAO SELCAL. We support it in 
the AGI product and are adding it to the 7xxx for flexibility.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO
S-COM, LLC


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Re: {Disarmed} [Repeater-Builder] Re: Macro & Prefix formats for multi site programming

[scomind]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the info. One of the items on our to-do list is see how our 
particular software scheme can be changed to handle this need.

73,
Bob


-Original Message-
From: Ed Yoho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 19 May 2007 4:51 pm
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} [Repeater-Builder] Re: Macro & Prefix formats 
for multi site programming






Bob,

Both LinkComm, Palomar Telecom (out of biz but still being used and
supported by many groups), and a few others that support prefixing /
pre-access allow the controller to be configured on a per port basis to
accept split and/or combined command strings. They all also have
programmable pre-access timeout timers and other methods of killing the
pre-access authorization period. The 'box' you describe is site and 
port
specific and is controlled by the pre-access authorization period. If
any of the stop pre-access conditions are met, the 'box' reverts to 
idle.

The pre-access characters are user definable (not just * or #) and
include all sixteen digits (though using 0-9 would be somewhat limiting
for follow on commands) in any combination.

Command length is not fixed. End of command entry is determined by
controller configuration settings (loss of COS, DTMF inter digit time
out, forced execution digit if configured - or combination of these).

Ed Yoho
WA6RQD


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> Our design team is following this discussion with great interest
> because it'll definitely influence what we offer in the future
> regarding controlling multiple sites.
>
> I will disclose one bias, however:
>
> >When the prefix is received the prefix decoder generated a telephone
> >dial tone back down the link.
>
> I'm not in favor of "split" commands -- commands that set up
> conditions for the next command. Early controllers seem to have
> favored them; you'd enter a certain code in order to manipulate
> certain things, and while you're in that particular box, you can't
> manipulate anything outside of that box. That system is kind of like
> a "tree" structure because it's hard to navigate and hard to 
visualize
> without a diagram.
>
> For example, you could be in some kind of command mode (like
> message editing) when you get kicked off, interfered with, or locked
> out somehow, and then like the Hotel California, you need to find the
> place where you were before.
>
> I started building controllers in the 70's and was influenced
> by the line-by-line programming found in DOS, programmable
> controller, and machine tool scripts. The carriage return/line feed
> was the command terminator.
>
> That's why the S-COM programming language looks like it does, little
> changed from the beginning. Each command exists as a complete,
> stand-alone command, independent of any commands that come before it
> or after it. If you want more complex commands, or readily changeable
> commands, you use macros -- a concept introduced to the
> controller market in my first wirewrapped controllers.
>
> In addition to no split commands, in S-COM's programming language the
> (*) and (#) never show up within a command except as "enter" and
> "abort", respectively. They have no effect if entered ahead of a
> command; their only effect occurs after other digits are queued.
> Requiring them inside commands forces you into a fixed format, 
stilted
> kind of thinking instead of a variable-length, freeflowing kind of
> command structure.
>
> When it comes to the fourth-column characters (A, B, C, D), we seldom
> use them in the code due to the fact that some radios and most
> telephones don't have them. Customers can use them in passwords and
> macro names, if they wish.
>
> I don't think there's anything in our existing structure that would
> keep us from prepending other characters for whatever purposes. We'll
> be looking at all of the various ideas presented here and in the 
archives.
>
> 73,
> Bob
>
> Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member
> S-COM, LLC
> PO Box 1546
> LaPorte CO 80535-1546
> 970-416-6505 voice
> 970-419-3222 fax
> www.scomcontrollers.com
>
>
>
> See what's free at AOL.com
> .
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by *MailScanner* , 
and is
> believed to be clean.






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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Do Anyone Use Their Repeater For This

[scomind]

Hi Chris,

>We are interested in having such a setup, but need to know if anyone
>else is doing it? If so, how are you sending the tones for the pager
>and such.

(A disclosure: My company used to make the 7K controller that several 
folks mentioned in their responses. Its replacement, the 7330, also 
supports tone paging.)

Generating paging tones is usually the job of the repeater controller. 
Not all controllers do it, and many folks don't care. Tone paging isn't 
all that popular any more, having first been replaced by digital paging 
and then by cell phones.

The controller needs to increase the tone amplitude when paging. If the 
controller has only one tone level pot, you'll probably want to set it 
so the CW identifications and courtesy beeps loud enough to be 
understood but low enough to not override a conversation. On the other 
hand, a paging tone needs to be fairly loud (about 3.3 kHz of 
deviation) because the paging receiver is expecting that level.

The tones also need to be fairly free of distortion and close to the 
format's specifications. That includes the accuracy of the tone 
frequencies and the durations of the tones and gaps.

And, it's handy to be able to pre-store the pages in memory so it's 
easy to call them up with a DTMF sequence.

Hope that helps -

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte, CO 80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222 fax
www.scomcontrollers.com

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[Repeater-Builder] Re: Macro & Prefix formats for multi site programming

[scomind]

 
Hi Guys,
 
Our design team is following this discussion with great interest  because 
it'll definitely influence what we offer in the future  regarding controlling 
multiple sites.
 
I will disclose one bias, however:
 
>When the prefix is received the prefix decoder generated a  telephone
>dial tone back down the link. 


 
I'm not in favor of "split" commands -- commands that set up  conditions for 
the next command. Early controllers seem to have favored  them; you'd enter a 
certain code in order to manipulate certain  things, and while you're in that 
particular box, you can't  manipulate anything outside of that box. That 
system is kind of  like a "tree" structure because it's hard to navigate and 
hard  
to visualize without a diagram.
 
For example, you could be in some kind of command mode (like  message 
editing) when you get kicked off, interfered with, or locked out  somehow, and 
then 
like the Hotel California, you need to find the place where  you were before.
 
I started building controllers in the 70's and was influenced  by the 
line-by-line programming found in DOS, programmable  controller, and machine 
tool 
scripts. The carriage return/line  feed was the command terminator.
 
That's why the S-COM programming language looks like it does, little  changed 
from the beginning. Each command exists as a complete,  stand-alone command, 
independent of any commands that come before  it or after it. If you want more 
complex commands, or readily changeable  commands, you use macros -- a 
concept introduced to the  controller market in my first wirewrapped 
controllers.
 
In addition to no split commands, in S-COM's programming language the (*)  
and (#) never show up within a command except as "enter" and "abort",  
respectively. They have no effect if entered ahead of a command; their only  
effect 
occurs after other digits are queued. Requiring them inside commands  forces 
you 
into a fixed format, stilted kind of thinking instead of a  variable-length, 
freeflowing kind of command structure.
 
When it comes to the fourth-column characters (A, B, C, D), we seldom use  
them in the code due to the fact that some radios and most telephones  don't 
have them. Customers can use them in passwords and macro names, if they  wish.
 
I don't think there's anything in our existing structure that would  keep us 
from prepending other characters for whatever purposes. We'll  be looking at 
all of the various ideas presented here and in the archives.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: [Fwd: [SCOM-Controllers] 7330 pricing and other ne...

[scomind]

 
Hi Larry,
 
In a message dated 5/11/2007 4:23:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

For  those manufacturers who don't plan to be at Dayton, will they be sending 
a  "demo" unit and brochures to show off at someone's inside booth or outside 
 swap meet space?


We'll have a 7330 at flea market space 1921, courtesy of Doug Sharp, K2AD.  
That'll be its first time on public display.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] [Fwd: [SCOM-Controllers] 7330 pricing and other news]

[scomind]

 
Hi Ed,
 
Do you know if the software will accept site prefixing on a per port  
basis (similar to Link-Comm or the old Palomar Telecom  controllers)b
This is a make or break for many system owners that have  multiple sites 
interconnected.
I have always been impressed with the  S-COM products except for this 
limitation on earlier  products.

 
I've forwarded your comments to the other guys so we can talk it over. It  
sounds like something that could be improved a couple of ways, including making 
 
the macro names longer.
 
73,
Bob


Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Quasi-Simulcast?

[scomind]

Hi Jeff,

"A duplexer is working correctly when the sensitivity of the receiver 
is not
degraded when the transmitter becomes active. There are test procedures 
to
check this out, but the explanation of these tests is beyond the scope 
of
this article. [OK, I'll agree with him so far] However, should you hear 
a
slow oscillation of the transmitter when it turns on and off (a rate of
about 1-2 Hz rate on weak signals), then you do have duplexer
desensitization."

What is this 1-2 Hz oscillation he's talking about?


A weak signal brings the repeater up, desensitization causes the 
receiver to no longer hear the weak signal, the repeater drops, and the 
cycle repeats.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: REPCO 2 watt vhf transmitter strip- info request

[scomind]

Hi Skipp,

Wilco. I'll contact you off-list.

73,
Bob

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 9:35 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: REPCO  2 watt vhf transmitter strip- 
info request

Re: REPCO 2 watt vhf transmitter strip- info request

Bob..! you "nice guy" you! I've also been looking for the
VHF Manual for some time. I'd pay you some type of a big bribe
to make copies for me/us. I will of course scan them into a
pdf file (if not received as scans) and pass copies into to
Mike and anyone who asks for free.

I already have the UHF/900 RDL Manual scanned (copes in pdf format
available free to anyone) and would really... really like to
get my hands on a copy of the VHF Manual/information.

So... is is possible to bribe you for a copy of at least
the VHF Manual?

Skipp
skipp025 at yahoo.com

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Art,
>
> Have you found the data you were looking for? If not, I might be
able to
> help. I found manuals for both the VHF and UHF Repco receivers and
transmitters
> in the S-COM archives. They're referred to as the RDL series of RF
Link
> Devices, and apparently there were both voice and data versions. We
had some of
> the data-only TX strips years ago, so W0INK designed a
> pre-emphasis/limiting/filtering circuit to use them for voice 
operation.
>
> The manuals are copies of copies and are a little rough in spots.
>
> Mike/ILQ: Interested in posting them on Repeater-Builder?
>
> 73,
> Bob
>
> Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member
> S-COM, LLC
> PO Box 1546
> LaPorte CO 80535-1546
> 970-416-6505 voice
> 970-419-3222 fax
> www.scomcontrollers.com
>
> In a message dated 4/18/2007 1:57:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Recently a member posted some info about this 2 watt vhf board being
> available on Ebay. I obtained 8 of these boards for experimentation.
> They are marked RD*3HT**X date of 2-83 and appear new and unused.
> Indicated tested at 154.570 (no crystal installed). Wondering if
> anyone might have some documetation or scematic or pinout that might
> help in putting this board into an amateur radio project. Would 
gladly
> share experience with this board with anyone. The board is high
> quality and may be ideal in a small size vhf project. Thanks in
> advance. Can contact off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) . Art Carlson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
>







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Re: [Repeater-Builder] REPCO 2 watt vhf transmitter strip- info request

[scomind]

 
Hi Art,
 
Have you found the data you were looking for? If not, I might be able to  
help. I found manuals for both the VHF and UHF Repco receivers and  
transmitters 
in the S-COM archives. They're referred to as the RDL series of RF  Link 
Devices, and apparently there were both voice and data versions. We  had some 
of 
the data-only TX strips years ago, so W0INK designed  a 
pre-emphasis/limiting/filtering circuit to use them for voice operation.
 
The manuals are copies of copies and are a little rough in spots.
 
Mike/ILQ: Interested in posting them on Repeater-Builder?
 
73,
Bob
 
Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com
 
In a message dated 4/18/2007 1:57:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Recently a member posted some info about this 2 watt vhf board being  
available on Ebay. I obtained 8 of these boards for experimentation.  
They are marked RD*3HT**X date of 2-83 and appear new and unused.  
Indicated tested at 154.570 (no crystal installed). Wondering if  
anyone might have some documetation or scematic or pinout that might  
help in putting this board into an amateur radio project. Would gladly  
share experience with this board with anyone. The board is high  
quality and may be ideal in a small size vhf project. Thanks in  
advance. Can contact off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) . Art  Carlson








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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Remote Base Antenna

[scomind]

Hi Nate,

It's a road full of potholes.

Yes, repeater controllers can be made to control HF rigs, antenna 
rotors, weather stations, and all kinds of simplex and duplex phone 
patches in addition to the existing load of repeaters, remote bases, 
and links. But it's a real job given the number of incompatible 
protocols out there -- which, of course, increases each year when the 
major rigmakers bring out new transceivers. Our 7330 has a second 
RS-232 port for such things, and we'll be picking and choosing some 
devices to be compatible with.

But jeez. Do you really want to control a complex rig with a lousy DTMF 
pad and synthesized speech for feedback?

What many want is a modern version of the Shackmaster. Why hasn't 
someone designed a replacement? Because it's one thing to support your 
favorite HF rig with a homebrew controller but quite another to offer a 
commercial product that supports many different rigs.

Some clubs use PCs as remote consoles and communicate with HF rigs via 
Ethernet, and that sounds like a really good solution at present.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Remote Base Antenna

Interesting topic...



On 4/20/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:For some reason, none of the repeater controller manufacturers 
seem to have incorporated any "real" rotator direction 
control functions in their controllers, even though they support 
various HF transceivers with control of modes, frequencies, bands, 
filters, scanning, memories, etc.


That's interesting.  I did some Googling last night while I was waiting 
on a customer to finish swapping a board during a maintenance window, 
and I see that there's a couple of standards for Serial control/reading 
of rotor controls, and the HyGain protocol seems to be the most 
popular.  Would you agree?  I haven't done anything like that yet.

Might be worth putting the protocol on the "wish lists" of the 
controller manufacturers that have serial ports...




If they could do it back in the 1980's, it should be able to be done 
now. An HF Remote Base isn't very useful on the upper HF bands without 
a directional antenna, and having it fixed in one direction is usually 
pointing the wrong direction when you need to use it.

 
Seems very "do-able" if the controller has a bi-directional serial 
port, which many are either already "there" or are going to be soon.  
Usually the serial port is tasked with being the way "in" for the 
controller to be programmed... but I bet the firmware folks could come 
up with interesting hybrid approaches to the re-use of the port for 
rotor control when desired.

There's other ways, but the "plug and pray" these days would seem to be 
the HyGain serial protocol.  (However the HyGain rotor control that 
does the protocol itself gets crappy reviews everywhere... there appear 
to be better solutions that use HyGain's protocol.)

We should see if any of the controller manufacturer's pop up with 
comments on the list... I can think of some interesting uses for such a 
setup on an HF or VHF remote base... and with Auxiliary Station control 
now legal on VHF...

Hmm, interesting ...


Nate WY0X


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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Controller connection to RPT-21

[scomind]

 
Hi Vern,
 
>In this instance, the analog delay module came out of an S-Com  5000
>controller; and the contributor told me what the pinouts were  supposed
>to be. Although I would prefer to confirm things with  proper
>schematics, I have made the connecting cable according to  the
>information he provided.
>
>By chance would you happen to  have a schematic and documentation for
>this module? At this point, I do  not know what the pots are for;
>although I would suspect that one (of the  three) is the delay time. 
>The PCB has "S-COM Audio Delay Module" in the  silkscreen on the
>componend-side; and "J703021" in the etch on the  solder-side. 

 
Our resource page is _http://www.scomcontrollers.com/resource.shtml_ 
(http://www.scomcontrollers.com/resource.shtml) .  You'll find the schematics 
for a 
number of S-COM products,  including the original ADM and its replacement, the 
Digital ADM. Both  are out of production.
 
I should mention that the original ADM used two of the  infamous Reticon 
bucket-brigade analog shift registers in cascade. These are not  quiet parts, 
and 
you will notice an increased background hiss from the  lowered signal-to-noise 
ratio when the module is in-circuit. Today's digital  ADMs have far better 
ratios, in case you're inclined to invest in a  replacement.
 
Don't adjust the pots nearest the Reticon  parts. They set the bias on the 
Reticons and are best adjusted with a distortion  analyzer. The pot nearest the 
7555 timer is the delay  adjustment.
 
73,
Bob



Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Tone filter

[scomind]

Hi Skipp,

Understood.

I'm coming in at a slightly different angle because our job was to 
build dial-access base station controllers that could be installed and 
accessed anywhere in North America regardless of phone line quality. 
Decoding and notching F1 and F2 sequences from all brands of consoles 
and tone remotes via lossy, noisy, and prone-to-crosstalk dial-up lines 
was a genuine challenge. In other words, when it came to tone 
signalling, it was much more like using radio technology than nice, 
short, phone-company-certified leased lines.

We examined lots of tone remotes and tone remote adaptors from various 
vendors. Some were crystal controlled and accurate. Some used rather 
unelegant circuits, from LC oscillators in the encoders to cheap op 
amps and 5% Rs and Cs in the decoders. Sometimes the frequencies were 
off by tens of Hz. But our TRA was expected to reliably detect, and 
deeply notch, the sometimes-inaccurate 2300 Hz and 2175 Hz keying tones 
-- and detect the function tones. We never found anything better than 
our switched-cap-based design at doing that.

Regarding Dayton, I can't break away due to contract work, but have a 
brat for me.

73,
Bob



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 1:21 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Tone filter

Hi back,

For a plug and play solution it's great. Don't tell anyone but in
my opinion it's just a clone of an earlier Selectone circuit I already
use. So I build them when I have time and buy them when I don't.

One bad thing about these homebrew and kit-built filters is how they
can and do drift with temp and time. The newer Norcomm units are much
more stable & smaller using current surface mount parts.

If you home brew something... get good stable parts (ie quality caps
and resistors) or you'll make un-needed repeat alignment service
calls.

Yes they are narrow... but they also respond to slightly off
frequency signals and in most cases it's enough to get the job
done.

For a number of smart reasons... one of the large linked repeater
systems here on the West Coast use notched ctcss vs a low pass filter.
Works well and I/we have never had to realign the notch filters since
the system was installed.

gonna' see you at Dayton this year Bob?

cheers,
skipp

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Skipp,
>
> What's your satisfaction level with the Norcom notch? A spec of 
+/-0.1%
> BW means only 3.5 Hz of BW at the -40 dB points at 1750 Hz. And 
that's
> for a tunable product, so you'd have to tune it dead on to get just 
40
> dB of notch. The users' generators would also have to be very 
accurate
> to be in the center of the notch.
>
> 73,
> Bob
>







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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Tone filter

[scomind]

Hi Gary,

Doing what, tone encode/decode or using Norcom notches?

Bob

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Tone filter

Motorola, GE, Vega and many others have been doing it rather well for 
many
years.

73
Gary K4FMX

> -Original Message-
> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 1:26 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Tone filter
>
> Hi Skipp,
>
> What's your satisfaction level with the Norcom notch? A spec of 
+/-0.1%
> BW means only 3.5 Hz of BW at the -40 dB points at 1750 Hz. And that's
> for a tunable product, so you'd have to tune it dead on to get just 40
> dB of notch. The users' generators would also have to be very accurate
> to be in the center of the notch.
>
> 73,
> Bob
> __
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>







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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Tone filter

[scomind]

Hi Skipp,

What's your satisfaction level with the Norcom notch? A spec of +/-0.1% 
BW means only 3.5 Hz of BW at the -40 dB points at 1750 Hz. And that's 
for a tunable product, so you'd have to tune it dead on to get just 40 
dB of notch. The users' generators would also have to be very accurate 
to be in the center of the notch.

73,
Bob

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tone filter

[scomind]

Hi Doug,

>Could anyone point me in the direction of a simple circuit which will
>facilitate the muting or suppression of a 1750 hz tone on the received
>audio.

Interesting question!

Simple? Maybe not. But it can be done (we design and manufacture base 
station controllers that are compatible with 2175 Hz and 2300 Hz tone 
keying formats.)

To "mute" a tone burst, you must detect it and then turn off the audio 
for the duration of the burst.

The detection part depends on your application. If enabled all of the 
time, a tone mute needs a narrow detection bandwidth and a timer on its 
output to ensure that so-many milliseconds of tone are present before 
triggering the mute. That's because 1750 Hz is well inside the voice 
band and the detector will otherwise be "falsed" a lot. (Witness how 
often DTMF decoders are falsed in radio applications unless they're 
slowed down from 40 mS, the phone company standard -- and they require 
TWO tones to be present, at relatively similar amplitudes, and within 
1.5% of the correct frequencies. The phone company doesn't have much 
problem with this because the DTMF decoders are removed from the 
circuit after the number is dialed.)

By the way, you'll still hear the beginning of the 1750 Hz burst due to 
the detector's latency unless you have an audio delay in the line.

If you're talking specifically about the initial tone burst that 
activates a repeater, then the detector filter doesn't have to be as 
sharp because you can make up for the falsing problem by requiring the 
tone to be present for a longer time (the weather service alert tone is 
a very long tone, partly for this reason). But you'll need a longer 
audio delay to remove the first part of the burst.

If you disable the detector once the repeater is up, then you won't 
have to worry about falsing causing dropouts in the audio.

Or, you could simply wait for the burst to end before bringing up the 
repeater, in which case no burst is heard.

To "suppress" a tone, you'll need either a lowpass filter or a notch 
filter.

We worked with VHF-AM aviation radios equipped with audio lowpass 
filters that removed 2175 Hz keying tones, and the resulting audio 
sounded pretty bad. A lowpass is probably out.

A notch filter needs to be fairly narrow if you don't want a noticeable 
hole in your audio passband.

Switched-capacitor filter ICs do a good job for detectors and notches 
(our notches are 50 dB deep and <50 Hz wide). But be aware that a 
narrow filter puts an accuracy requirement on the tone source. If the 
users' 1750 Hz encoders are off by a few dozen Hz, you'll hear the tone.

Maybe this will stimulate some more discussion...

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

S-COM LLC


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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Controller connection to RPT-21

[scomind]

 
Hi Vern,
 
>For reference, I have a NHRC-5 controller, ComSpec TS-32 (or  TS-32P,
>if any better) CTCSS module, and an S-COM analog delay line. I  think
>that these are the right pieces; all I think that I need is how  to
>hook it all up.




A caution: Please be aware that despite the fact that the connectors are  
similar, the pinout of the NHRC controller's delay connector does not  match 
the 
pinout of the S-COM audio delay module.
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com




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[Repeater-Builder] Re: [SCOM-Controllers] Warm Restart of a 6K

[scomind]

Hi Brian,

>Is there a Command anywhere to warm restart a 6K?
>or to say another way To Push the button remotely?

They're different. A "warm" start is a processor reset. It's what 
happens when you remove power and then restore it. Although a warm 
start forces some minor initializations, your entered data is pretty 
much left alone.

A "cold" start is an initialization. It's what happens when you hold 
down the Initialize button while restoring power. It forces default 
data to be written over your entered data.

The 6K doesn't have a commands to do those things. We've discussed such 
commands, but the problem is that if the memory is scrambled (or 
whatever happened that made you to want to reset the controller), 
chances are your command won't be executed correctly anyway. A large 
portion of the controller needs to be working properly for the 
controller to hear your command and obey it.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: AntiKerchunk ??

[scomind]

Hi Skipp,

>The original ACC Repeater controllers had the... best kerchunk
>software. I tried for years to nag a few controller mfgrs to
>include the original ACC style kerchunk filter option and they
>all seem to miss the point and built the classic delayed tx
>mess.

Download the document that describes the S-COM 7330 software 
improvements(http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/scom7330commandchan
ges.pdf).

You'll find interesting stuff starting on page 23 (Section 5.3, 
Antikerchunker).

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: fixed-audio?

[scomind]

Hi Jeff,

>Bottom line: limiting after preemphasis results in a reduction in the
>noise-limited dynamic range at higher frequencies; that's a natural
>byproduct of a process which originated in the user's radio. The 
repeater,
>following the same preemphasis/deemphasis curve as the user's radio, 
has no
>further affect. Any variation or degradation in frequency response, 
S/N,
>THD, etc. as the audio passes through the repeater is solely due to
>imperfections in the design, implementation, or medium, not the
>preemphasis/deemphasis process within the repeater since the two are
>receiprocol.

How true.

Beyond that, our long-held view here is that the major bad guy 
(especially in linked systems, where there is a series of them) is the 
post-clipper ('splatter') filter. If they're all first-order filters, 
you'll lose 6 dB at the high end (3 kHz) for each one you go through. 
No wonder some systems sound muddy.

And no wonder the no-emphasis repeater builders have had success with 
their technique.

When you take discriminator audio, run it through your own clipper and 
brick-wall filter, and feed it into the modulator, you bypass a lot of 
original audio circuitry. The explanation seems to be, "de-emphasis and 
pre-emphasis is bad because when I got rid of it, my system sounded 
better." But it wasn't the de-emph and pre-emph, it was the OEM clipper 
and filter.

You can make a good argument for replacing OEM audio circuitry, 
including the squelch. But doing it for each port on a multiport 
controller is probably too expensive for most of the market.

73,
Bob

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: fixed-audio?

[scomind]

Hi NJ,

>"... The solution seems to be to run flat audio within
>the controller, ..."
>
>I couldn't agree more. Coming from the commercial two-way world,
>this is how we do everything, but I do understand why some repeater
>builders want to go the other way. I just wouldn't call it "flat
>audio" - it's just normal audio - hook a transmission test set up to
>it and it sounds normal.

Okay, that's a vote for running, um, normal audio throughout the 
controller.

To do that, we would accept normal audio from receivers as-is, or 
de-emphasize discriminator audio. The controller's internal tone 
generation and digital audio playback, the DTMF decoders, and the 
autopatch all stay normal. We wouldn't need squelch circuits and we 
wouldn't need pre-emphasis and clippers in the transmitter audio. It 
would definitely be less expensive.

And normal. :-)

73,
Bob

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: fixed-audio?

[scomind]

Hi Mike,

>I'd like to see a controller that has enough in it that all you need 
to interface
>to is discriminator audio and modulator audio.  On the receive side it 
could
>have a Micor-type squelch and a de-emphasis network built with 1% 
parts. 
>On the transmit side it has pre-emphasis and feeds the modulator 
directly.

So that's one vote for running pre-emphasized audio throughout the 
controller.

To do that, all receivers must provide discriminator audio, and the 
controller's internal tone generation and digital audio playback must 
have pre-emphasis. The DTMF decoders must have de-emphasis. Any 
autopatch would need de-emphasis on the outgoing audio and pre-emphasis 
on the incoming audio. Am I missing anything?

73,
Bob

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: fixed-audio?

[scomind]

 
Howdy,
 
You make  my point. You say "Our system" You are a controller guy. 
Your controller is  your perspective. But that is actually a device 
perspective. 

 
Sure, I'm a  controller guy, and since S-COM is going headlong into the 
multiport controller  biz, I have a vested interest in this topic.
 
For instance, how  does a customer tie a bunch of radios, some running flat 
and some running  pre-emphasized, into one big controller? It only works for 
receivers and  transmitters that have similar audio schemes. It won't work if,  
say, RX1 (flat output) is supposed to mix with RX2 (discriminator  output) and 
the resulting audio feed both TX1 (flat input) and TX3  (modulator input).
 
The solution  seems to be to run flat audio within the controller, but that 
may not  square with everyone.
 
Also,  with regard to this statement:

"... can't change the flatness.  Pre-emphasis is always precisely 
+6.000 dB/octave and de-emphasis is always  precisely -6.000 
dB/octave. "

Real world transmitters always have  limiters. Those DO change 
flatness. Just look at the EIA/TIA specication for  testing 
transmitter pre-emphasis. The test is not run at system deviation.  
It is not even run at 60% of system deviation. It is run at 20% of  
system deviation. [that's +/- 1 KHz deviation for 5 KHz systems]

Run  the test at 20% into a modulation analyzer and you get a nice 6 
dB per  octave line from 300 to near 3000 Hz.

Run it again at higher deviations  and see what the limiter does to 
your nice straight line - the pre-emphasis  curve hits the limiter at 
progressiviely lower and lower frequencies as you  increase the 
deviation.
 
While those tests  are valuable, we don't communicate with sweep generators, 
we communicate  with the human voice. And the human voice has a natural -6 
dB/octave  rolloff, which means that ultimately all the audio gets clipped 
pretty 
much  the same. (Please see W0INK's paper at 
_www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/pmmodandnbfm.pdf_ 
(http://www.scomcontrollers.com/downloads/pmmodandnbfm.pdf) ;  the same paper 
was published in the Winter 2007 issue of CQ-VHF 
magazine, which  came out about a month ago. There's a discussion of this topic 
starting at page  3.)
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] fixed-audio?

[scomind]

Hi Jeff,

>All repeaters end up yielding "flat" response from end to end. It's 
just a
>matter of whether not there is reciprocol deemphasis-preemphasis 
within the
>repeater cabinet

I agree with you and Bob.

And as the whole list knows, this has all been hashed over before.

Guess we're still looking for that magical phrase that is obvious to 
everybody and conveys exactly the right meaning. Something perfect.

Closest I've heard of is the VW Beetle (dating myself)..

73,
Bob

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Flat Audio

[scomind]

Hi Shorty,

>Flat Audio through a repeater simply means that the repeater
>does not mess with the audio through-put.

I know that's what you and others mean, but that's not what learners 
see. More and more listmembers are routinely talking about "flat audio 
 from the discriminator", and I know they know better. But "flat audio" 
has now entered the lexicon the wrong way, and there's going to be more 
confusion.

>The repeater should leave the through-put audio alone, and
>your repeater will sound just like simplex does.  No audio processing
>should be done inside the repeater, period.

We've studied this issue as well, and found that the limiter and 
lowpass filter are the main roadblocks to good audio -- the 
pre-emphasis and de-emphasis circuits themselves weren't.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: fixed-audio?

[scomind]

Hi,

>Huh???
>
>De-emphasized audio has a tilted frequency response BY DEFINITION!

No, de-emphasized audio has a flat response in our system. It's tilted 
if you feed flat audio into a de-emphasis circuit -- but we never do 
that. We always feed pre-emphasized audio into a de-emphasis circuit, 
thus we always get flat audio out.

>It can only be sort-of considered "flat" in a SYSTEM sense where the
>results of an end-to-end communication are considered. This
>receiver hearing a transmission from a remote transmitter utilizing
>a complementary pre-emphasis curve.

Exactly! Our system takes flat audio in and delivers flat audio out, 
and has pre-emphasized audio in between. The definition of our system 
holds that the audio coming out of the de-emphasis stage is flat, just 
like the audio going into the pre-emphasis stage is flat.

>Even then - the results are a long way from "flat" due to the
>dynamic interaction of various modulation components with the
>transmitter's limiter [depending on their level].

Separate subject. In strictly pre-emphasis and de-emphasis terms, you 
can't change the flatness. Pre-emphasis is always precisely +6.000 
dB/octave and de-emphasis is always precisely -6.000 dB/octave. The 
most you can do is move the corners, but our system has definitions of 
where the corners should be.

>Although this is the conventional equipment configuration - either
>simplex or repeater and either amateur or commercial, clearly - in
>either case - amateur or commercial - the term "flat audio" is used
>to refer to systems or links that avoid the use of pre-emphasis
>and/or de-emphasis in some manner with the objectives of better
>audio quality, lower distortion, etc.

Clearly? I don't think it's clear at all to an outside observer, even 
one with a technical background. Such a person will be misinformed 
because he will believe that we transmit flat audio from our radios and 
that our repeaters pass flat audio from the discriminator to the 
modulator. We don't do that.

73,
Bob



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[Repeater-Builder] fixed-audio?

[scomind]

Guys, an observation:

I hope the "discriminator equals flat" folks appreciate the mess 
they've created with our lexicon.

Rodney has now been forced to say it like this:

"This chart shows pin 11 as Filtered Audio Out which is de-emphasised 
audio
pre-volume control. If you want straight discriminator (flat) audio out 
then
I think you can change the setting for this pin via the RSS."

De-emphasized audio is, of course, flat audio. There is no tilt in its 
response.

If this is so, then what is "straight discriminator (flat) audio"? 
Since de-emphasized audio is different from discriminator audio, they 
can't both be flat.

Enough revisionism already. Terms like "flat audio repeaters" are 
misleading to anyone not intimately involved in their construction.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

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[Repeater-Builder] Ceramic capacitors

[scomind]

Mike and all,
 
Here's another item to add to the  capacitor page. It's for those who've 
wondered why an X7R ceramic  cap is better'n a Z5U ceramic cap...
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO
_www.scomcontrollers.com_ (http://www.scomcontrollers.com) 
 


EIA Three Digit "TC" Codes for Ceramic  Capacitors
 
Low Temperature Limit
X = -55 C
Y = -30 C
Z = +10 C
 
High Temperature Limit
5 = +85 C
6 = +105 C
7 = +125 C
8 = +150 C
 
Maximum Allowable Capacitance Change From +25  C
F = +/- 7.5%
P = +/- 10%
R = +/- 15%
S = +/- 22%
T = +22%/-33%
U = +22%/-56%
V = +22%/-82%
 
Example: X7R = +/- 15% capacitance change over the  temp range -55 C to +125 
C.

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Capacitor value

[scomind]

Most manufacturers use the three-digit code system now, where 100 = 10 
pF and 470 = 47 pF (third digit = 0 = no zeroes).

Bob

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Capacitor value

Yes.

106 = 10uF (Usually Tantalums come in this size)
105 = 1uF
104 = 0.1uF
103 = 0.01uF
102 = 0.001uF (A.K.A. 1000pF)
101 = 100pF
100 can either equal 100pF or 10pF depending on who made it and what
there markings are. usually parts 100pF and below are just labeled
with the value in picofarads. Like 18 would denote 18pF, but 151 would
mean 150pF.

On 2/21/07, Laryn Lohman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, DCFluX <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > 0.01uF or 10,000pF
>
>
> Hmm... OK, just trying to clarify. 103 = .01uf? You're sure, right?
>
> Laryn K8TVZ
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>






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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Inductor? Value

[scomind]

Laryn,

Might be 470 uH.

73,
Bob

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 9:55 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Inductor?  Value

Wow, thanks for the help on the capacitor value.

In the same circuit is a resistor look-alike with green or yellow
(hard to tell for sure), violet, brown, silver stripes. It measures
6.0 ohms, so I believe it to be an inductor. What would the value be?
Maybe 470pH?

Laryn K8TVZ







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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Capacitor value

[scomind]

Hi Laryn,

The third digit is the number of zeros, so 103 = 1 pF = 0.01 uF.

73,
Bob, WA9FBO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 9:38 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Capacitor value

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, DCFluX <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 0.01uF or 10,000pF

Hmm... OK, just trying to clarify. 103 = .01uf? You're sure, right?

Laryn K8TVZ







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[Repeater-Builder] New S-COM 7330 Document

[scomind]

Hi Guys,
 
We've released a document that describes the improvements in  the command set 
of the upcoming 7330 repeater controller over its  predecessor, the 7K.
 
It also explains some of the philosophy behind the changes, which  shows how 
modern amateur controllers are looking a bit like  the interoperability boxes 
being offered to the public safety  market.
 
The link is at the top of the main page at _www.scomcontrollers.com_ 
(http://www.scomcontrollers.com) .
 
73,
Bob  

Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, Member
S-COM, LLC
PO Box 1546
LaPorte CO  80535-1546
970-416-6505 voice
970-419-3222  fax
www.scomcontrollers.com

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: S-COM 7330 First Look!

[scomind]

Hi Skipp,
 
> It looks great Bob...  can't wait to see when they become 
> available for sale.  I'll probably be right there at the > 
order desk when they're ready.  >> The nice part about you 
repeater controller guys is there's > almost no work involved to make the 
box and write the software...
 
Uh-oh, he's on to us...
 
73,
Bob 














  




  
  
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[Repeater-Builder] S-COM 7330 First Look!

[scomind]

At last, photos and hard data on the 7330 at http://www.scomcontrollers.com!Please 
check out the New Directions paper as well as the other new material. 
It discusses the philosophies behind this new line of controllers and 
helps show why the project has taken so much 
well-spent time!We'll be adding more data to the site in the next 
few days.My thanks to Kevin for allowing us to make these 
announcements on the Repeater Builder list.
 
73,Bob  Bob Schmid,  WA9FBO, MemberS-COM, 
LLCPO Box 1546LaPorte CO  80535-1546970-416-6505 
voice970-419-3222  faxwww.scomcontrollers.com













  




  
  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mule on the attack

[scomind]

Hi Russ,
 
> pretty neat pictures...>  >  Mule on the 
attack.
 
Part urban legend -- the pix are real, but the mule didn't kill the cat (http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/mulelion.asp).
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO
Member, Rocky Mountain LongEars Assoc.













  




  
  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Deviation

[scomind]

Hi Chas,
 
> Shouldn't the touch tone pad tone be set at the maximum deviation or 
> nearly so?
 
No, and here's the explanation:
 
1. The pre-emphasis in your transmitter causes the tone with the higher 
freq to deviate more than the other tone (for example, the 1477 Hz 
tone will deviate more than twice as much as the 697 Hz tone).
 
If the DTMF level is too high, its waveform will be clipped in the 
transmitter -- and the higher-freq tone will be clipped more 
than the lower-freq tone because of the pre-emphasis.
 
At the receiving end, de-emphasis restores flat response -- 
but it causes the higher-freq tone to now be lower in level than 
the other tone. If this "twist" (difference in level between the two tones) 
is great enough, the decoder won't recognize the DTMF as valid.
 
2. You can end up with 'DTMF intermod'. The star (*) is 941 
Hz plus 1209 Hz. If you multiply 1209 by two and subtract 941, you get 
1477. The pound (#) is 941 Hz and 1477 Hz. That means if the system 
has distortion, you can end up with the decoder seeing (*) and (#) at the same 
time.
 
So, it's important to keep the DTMF level below the transmitter's 
clipping point.
 
73,
Bob 
 
Bob Schmid, 
WA9FBO, MemberS-COM, LLCPO Box 1546LaPorte CO 
80535-1546970-416-6505 voice970-419-3222 
faxwww.scomcontrollers.com













  




  
  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] repeater..activate without tones

[scomind]

Hi Mike,
 
>> The 6K and 7K have been discontinued, but the feature will be 
kept in >> the new 7330 controller.>> It's been a while 
since I looked, how's the timeframe coming for the > release of the 7330 
Bob?
 
Our new slogan: Dayton or bust!
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO













  




  
  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] repeater..activate without tones

[scomind]

Hi Chris,
 
> can one remotely activate a repeater without tones?> 
Say:   click PTT three times within 3 seconds and repeater is 
up.>       click PTT four times  within 3 
seconda dn repeater is down
 
The S-COM 6K and 7K repeater controllers have had this feature for 
many years due to our involvement in aviation (mic clicks are 
used at unattended airstrips to bring up beacons and landing lights).
 
The 6K and 7K have been discontinued, but the feature will be 
kept in the new 7330 controller.
 
Frankly, there hasn't been a lot of interest in this kind of feature in the 
ham market. There was some interest in Long Tone Zero (LiTZ) years ago, 
but that feature requires the user to have a working DTMF 
encoder.
 
I must admit I like the idea of allowing a user to get some kind of 
emergency attention by simply clicking the mic on the repeater input 
without needing DTMF, CTCSS, or anything else besides a radio. The 
controller could send a paging tone or DTMF sequence over the air, 
switch the repeater to carrier access, or whatever it takes to get help.
 
(The number of clicks, their duration, and the overall window time are 
all programmable to minimize accidental/noise activation.)
 
73,
Bob 
 
Bob Schmid, 
WA9FBO, MemberS-COM, LLCPO Box 1546LaPorte CO 
80535-1546970-416-6505 voice970-419-3222 
faxwww.scomcontrollers.com













  




  
  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] 7K controller

[scomind]

Hi Juan,
 
Your e-mail address was bouncing messages back to Yahoogroups so it 
delisted you. I've reinstated your membership.
 
The 7K can operate two repeaters by tying a second repeater to the 
link port. It'll handle the CORs and PTTs, send messages to the proper 
TX (if the messages are composed correctly), and so on.
 
But the 7K isn't a real multi-repeater controller because it has 
just one DTMF decoder, one DTMF encoder, one CW/tone generator, and so 
on. The repeater on the main port will have priority over the other 
when it comes to those resources, so this scheme works best when the second 
repeater is a minor one.
 
The new 7xxx series is being designed specifically to handle multiple 
repeaters. Each repeater will have its own resouces, and the software 
will allow either independent or linked operation.
 
73,
Bob
 

Bob Schmid, 
WA9FBO, MemberS-COM, LLCPO Box 1546LaPorte CO 
80535-1546970-416-6505 voice970-419-3222 
faxwww.scomcontrollers.com
 
 
I asked this to the S-Com site, but no answer yet, hope 
somebody give some ligth here: I have a S-Com 7K controller 
with Version 2.03 ( think is the latest firmware ), my 
question is if it can handle two repeaters separated with 
their own timers and ID's, can't find anything related in 
the manual.
 
Thanks
Juan XE2SI
 













  




  
  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater heard on Aviation Channel! HELP

[scomind]

Hi Matthew,

  >I powered down the Mastr Pro receiver, noise still 
  there,>only thing left was the cat controller, powered it down and 
  noise is>gone.  This noise was heard over a large frequency spread 
  in the>aircraft band on the SM.  Could it be possible that the 
  controller>could be the cause sending havac out the band.
   
Yes!
 
RF created by the digital circuits in the controller can hitch a 
ride on your PTT and audio lines, where it 
gets injected into an early stage in 
your transmitter. The noise is multiplied (along with the 
desirable signal), amplified, and spewed out all over the spectrum.
 
Put a good sized ferrite bead on each wire leaving 
the controller.
 
73,
Bob
 
Bob Schmid, 
WA9FBO, MemberS-COM, LLCPO Box 1546LaPorte CO 
80535-1546970-416-6505 voice970-419-3222 
faxwww.scomcontrollers.com








  
  





  
  
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] C3I audio delay board

[scomind]

Hi Bruce,
 
> I have a C3I audio connected to a Cat 300dx.
> As you increase the delay there a hiss that
> is heard. If you turn the delay off, the hiss is
> silent. Any Ideas?
 
That audio delay module uses two cascaded Reticon RD5108 bucket-brigade 
audio delay chips. Bucket-brigade technology has been obsolete for many 
years, replaced by better schemes.
 
The chips have a poor signal-to-noise ratio, and cascading them (for 
longer delay) makes it worse. That's why you hear the hiss. You can't do 
much about it.
 
Your board is a copy that C3I made of the original S-COM Audio Delay 
Module. Just as well; the S-COM Digital ADM that came later was a much 
better product. The design of the DADM is now owned by Integrated Control 
Systems, which also sells the DADM.
 
73,
Bob
 
 
Bob Schmid, 
WA9FBO, MemberS-COM, LLCPO Box 1546LaPorte CO 
80535-1546970-416-6505 voice970-419-3222 
faxwww.scomcontrollers.com








  
  





  
  
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[Repeater-Builder] Modulation Papers

[scomind]

Hi Guys,
 
We put three white papers on the S-COM website (www.scomcontrollers.com) written by 
Virgil, W0INK, that follow up on some of the discussions about PM and FM on 
these lists.
 
If you're in the mood for some interesting technical reading, fill your 
coffee cup and take a look at:
 
"The Tuned Circuit LC Phase Modulator" (distortion in the phase modulator 
is not due to what you might think!)

 
"CTCSS Modulation And The LC Phase Modulator" (discusses distortion 
due to the mixing of voice and CTCSS)
 
"The Phase Modulator In NBFM Voice Communication Systems" 
(discusses voice response and why phase modulation is the standard)
 
PLEASE NOTE that Virgil mentions the superiority of phase 
modulation over frequency modulation in one argument. Before anyone blows a 
fuse, please understand that he is talking about the modulation system, not 
the modulator itself, and that "phase modulation" 
INCLUDES FM-plus-preemphasis.

 
If you want to comment directly to Virgil, his e-mail address is [EMAIL PROTECTED].
 
Keep an open mind, and happy reading!
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO 
 
Bob Schmid, 
WA9FBO, MemberS-COM, LLCPO Box 1546LaPorte CO 
80535-1546970-416-6505 voice970-419-3222 faxwww.scomcontrollers.com













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[Repeater-Builder] S-COM Repeater Controllers

[scomind]

Hi Kevin, Jim, and Joe,
 
Thanks for all the nice comments about S-COM! I suppose with some 
6,000 controllers sold to the aviation, commercial, and ham markets 
over the last 20 years, we at least should qualify as a 
survivor...   :-)
 
The "K" series is now out of production, but we're working hard on the 
next-gen models. Our day jobs slow us down a bit (for example, one of our design 
team members is currently in China and reports having snake stir-fry 
yesterday), but we're currently debugging prototypes of the first model (a 
true three-port controller) and are making good progress.
 
And Joe, they will all have two RS-232 ports!   :-)
 
Thank you for your support!
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO
 
 
> I 
  have read several replies to this post, and have seen one of the "heavy 
  > hitters"> when it comes to repeater controllers go 
  unmentioned. S-Com industries, IMHO,> builds one of the best products 
  that money can buy. We have had multiple 5K > and> 7K 
  controllers on the air for 10+ years without a single failure or > 
  software glitch - ever.> If you put the new Vyex DAB with the 7K, you 
  have a controller that is > truly hard> to beat. I have no 
  connection to S-Com, other than being a very satisified> customer. 
  73,> > Kevin, K9HXI was about to say the same 
  thing.  The 7K, while a bit more expensive then what the original 
  poster is likely looking for (but still much cheaper then Link), it is by 
  far the most flexible and reliable controller out there right now.And 
  they have a new one coming soon!-- Jim BarbourWD8CHL(and 
  no, I don't have any connenction to them other than I own a 6K, and   
  am heavily involved in rptrs with a 5K and a 7K, all of which have been in 
  service for over 10 years without even a slight bump.)I have to agree, 
  I have had a 5K and a 6K on the airfor many years now and never, never had 
  a glitch orfailure.  It has to be one of the most stable 
  andreliable controllers on the market.  The only fault Ican find 
  is that there is no RS-232 port to talk toit.  Programming has to be 
  done via Touch-Tonecommand.73, Joe, 
  K1ike

 













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kinda of a strange question

[scomind]

WB6YMH wrote:
 
Since we into nostalga what's the earliest date of a microprocessor based repeater or remote base controller?  I built a Z80 based controller during 79 and 80 that ended up with 6 K of assembly language and 4 radio ports.
 
 
I built the 147.300 WR9AIN repeater in New Holstein, WI in 1976 with a 45W Quintron TX and an Aerotron RX.
 
The repeater was in my shack because the controller was a Southwest Technical Products Corp. 6800-based computer (kit), and I had to reload the program via a 33ASR Teletype tape reader after power interruptions.
 
The SWTPC operated a Heathkit HD-15 for autopatching. DTMF decoding was via a Teltone DTMF receiver board.
 
I later wirewrapped a 6802-based controller, and I believe it was the first controller to have macros.
 
73,
Bob
 
 
Bob Schmid, WA9FBOS-COM, LLC970-416-6505 voice970-419-3222 fax[EMAIL PROTECTED]













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] SS-32/5K/Micor

[scomind]

Hi Kevin,
 
I am installing a Comm Spec SS-32 encoder in a Micorrepeater. I am using a logic output from an S-Com 5Kcontroller to key the ground connection to the encoderwhenever the RX COR is active. I need to do this tobe able to link into another system.My problem is when ever the encoder is keyed orunkeyed, it causes the TX to drift off frequency about+/- 900Hz. It apears that this is being casued by a capcharging/discharging. I have tried several differenttone insertion points, always with the same result.
 
I haven't seen many responses, so I'll toss out some suggestions.
 
There is probably a DC bias on the Micor side of the audio connection. The SS-32 has a 1 uF polarized cap in series with the tone output with its "+" side toward the SS-32. When the SS-32 has its ground connection floating, the cap probably sees 12V on the SS-32 side and some other (lower) voltage on the Micor side. When the SS-32 is operating, the voltage on the SS-32 side of the cap may be lower than the Micor side. If the cap operates reversed biased, it can leak or short, causing wierd problems. You could try a 1 uF nonpolarized cap in series with the tone lead to see if that's the case.
 
If that wasn't the problem, and if you have plenty of CTCSS level coming from the SS-32 and can afford to lose some, use a smaller nonpolarized cap (say, 0.1 uF) in series. The lower value will attenuate the level, but may also reduce the drift effect you're seeing.
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Does anyone remember "Porta=Peaters"?

[scomind]

Hi Randy,
 
Years ago there were controllers called "Porta-Peaters". They allowed you toburn a prom with an ID on it, and plug in audio output from a receiver and acable from the repeater to a transmitter with PTT, controlled by thecontroller.As I recall they were designed for emergency repeaters with capabilitiesparticularly for use with HT's and mobiles.Anyone know if they are still around or of someone who might have one theyare interested in parting with?
 
 
Just ask Mister Controller Trivia Person!
 
I pulled a 1981 datasheet out of the archives. The Porta-Peater M100A was made by W-S Engineering, PO Box 58, Pine Hill, NJ 08021, 201-852-0269. The Porta-Peater Module was $99; including cabinet, $179. They also made a Porta-Link PL-250 ($99), a DTMF Control Module ($179), an Autopatch Module ($99) that required a $50 FCC registered Telephone Interface, and similar stuff like that there. I have datasheets and price sheets, but no manuals or schematics.
 
73,
Bob
 
 
Bob Schmid, WA9FBOS-COM, LLC970-416-6505 voice970-419-3222 fax[EMAIL PROTECTED]













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Occupied Bandwidth.

[scomind]

Hi Bob,
 
 
>I didn't want to confuse a highly technical topic with the FM/PM thing again.  Personally, I > find it easier to think of angle modulation in terms of frequency as opposed to phase.
 
 
Sure, me too - - maybe most of us on the list. That's probably because we're used to thinking in terms of sine waves. You draw a sine wave, and then you move the zero-crossing point left or right to show how you can change the phase.
 
The problem is that you can also move the zero-crossing point left or right to show how you can change the frequency. That's what got me. So how do you show the difference between phase and frequency?
 
The sine wave isn't the right tool to talk about phase, a rotating phasor diagram is. But that's okay. We can do this with sine waves if we look at a string of them.
 
If you shift the phase by 10 degrees and then leave it that way for a number of cycles, the frequency would change only momentarily. It would change during the time the phase was actually changing, not before or after.
 
So, a "step" in phase angle resulted in a spike in frequency. Since frequency results from a change in phase, if you differentiate phase, you get frequency. This is just like differentiating velocity to get acceleration.
 
The reverse works as well. If you change the frequency, the phase must continuously change to accomplish that. And that's the whole difference between PM and FM.
 
 
> I didn't want to complicate the discussion of Carson's Rule & TX bandwidth by having to > explain how the numbers add up if using a phase modulated TX.  For example, how do we > determine the modulation index from phase deviation for use in calculating the sideband > amplitudes from the Bessel function?
 
 
I forwarded your message to Virgil and this is his response:
 

The text book general case for the Carson rule does not state highest modulating frequency because the formulae is good for any modulating frequency.  In the case below, they simply have used the bandwidth requirement to condition the formulae for finding the highest modulating frequency. The Carson rule works whether or not the modulating frequency is the highest modulating frequency. My issue is the math statement that implies that BW is found by using the highest modulating frequency. The definition below used the term CBR (bandwith requirement) which is the correct math form for defining the fm as the highest modulating frequency.
 
Modulation Index for PM is >  MIp = k*Vm  ( k = some constant as detemined by phase modulator )
 
    
For an frequency modulation >Delta f  =  k*Vm ( k = some constant as determined by frequency modulator) 
 
Modulation Index for FM is > MIf = Delta f  /  modulation frequency
 
Modulation Index for PM is equal to Modulation Index for FM >  MIp = Mif
 
Carson's Rule for:    FM is >    BW = 2 times ( Delta f   +  modulating frequency )
   
 By using the relationship between PM and FM modulation index. 
 ( Delta f = modulation index times modulating frequency )
 
 PM is >  BW = 2 times (modulating frequency) times ( modulation index plus one )
    
The Bessel function x axis is the modulation index - whether the modulation index is from PM or FM.
 
 
73,
Bob













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