Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Yeah may help the audio especially when you get some person who tends to talk like he's has to scream which I know happens on one repeater I know surprised the repeater does not clip his audio or something. Mark Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ab8ru.org - Original Message - From: Kevin King [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:56 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals Orban Optimod ! gota love it.. Kevin King SCSA BSCIS ARS KC6OVD GMRS KAG0378 EIEIO 2722 Acworth Georgia 3. Get a CBS Volumax or Orban broadcast audio processor for your TX audio. We use the latter for space shuttle audio over our repeater it really improves intelligibility. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Lemme get the manuals out and see what the specs are. Ssb -Original Message- From: Kevin Custer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] How much exactly is the amount of minor comprerssion, 2 to 1 or more? Kevin [Steve Bosshard (NU5D)] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Kevin, I had a high level audio problem using a Pryme mike on my Kenwood th-77A portable. I called Pryme and they suggested a series resistor in the DC line feeding the mike element. I tried several values and settled on 8.2K ohms.This resistor was added in the Gnd side of the mike element line in series with that lead of the mike cord The level dropped to near what I would call Normal as I like to talk fairly close to a mike but not shout in to it. John VE3AMZ Waterloo, Ontario. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals Mathew Quaife wrote: The one user is going to bring his radio by and see just what it is doing audio wise, it might be set to high to begin with, and with him having a loud voice, might be just over doing it all. While you *may* find the users radio to be too wide (too much deviation), it has been my observation that users that sound too loud are due to them using radios that have too much Microphone Gain (gain before the clipper/filter, and deviation control). Also, don't be surprised that you can't find a control to fix the problem, many of the newer radios don't have one. My Kenwood 742A has been modified inside the microphone with the addition of a pot in the audio line. When using this approach you must be cautious of the place that you install to control as you can affect the DTMF tone level. In my case, there was no good place to install the pot near the mic element because of the bias voltage on the element. While I could have decoupled the audio and steered the bias around the pot, there physically wasn't enough room in the mic to do that easily. I opted to simply place the added pot in the audio line after the DTMF was mixed in. Since the DTMF encoder has a control to set its level, and its output is fairly hot, I was able to turn down the mic element and reset the level of the DTMF encoder to the desired amount(s). Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
If your loud user clips at 6 Khz deviation no mater what then you have your transmiter deviation set at 6 Khz turn it down to 4.5 or 5Khz max. This is the max limit. Then have someone talk on the repeater or while there is a conversation going on, use a radio at the site and switch between input and output and adjust the controller TX audio so that input equals output in loudness. It is that simple. If recieve audio is shaped corectly before reaching the transmitter you should not be able to tell input from output, it should sound like simplex if it sounds tinny or bassy compared to the input no amount of tweeking of deviation or tx audio controlls is going to help. Does the 6 Khz user's input signal sound like his output signal? It should. I would bet if you put his radio on your service monitor and yelled in the mic it would be below 5 Khz, some radios have too much mic gain and the user needs to be told to speak softer. But if he sounds louder on the input than everyone else then he will when coming through the repeater too. Set your controller tx level so input = output and all will be fine. tom n8ies [Original Message] From: w9mwq [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/13/2005 7:42:45 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. Mathew Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Ken Arck wrote: At 09:27 PM 4/13/2005 -0500, you wrote: I think that is what I was getting to as well, if there was a way to limit the incoming audio, or like it was put, hope the other users lets the louder ones know they are too loud. As for the system, the audio levels are set just right for about 95% of the users. ---I think many are either not listening or not grasping the concept here :-) It is not a matter of perceived deviation nor is it a matter of incoming levels. It is not because some users might be using an Icom and others are using a Kenwood. Since the deviation levels mentioned were actually measured, it is obvious that the transmitter is being to 6 Khz deviation on occasion and the only way this is going to happen (assuming the deviation limiter circuitry is working properly and I see no reason it shouldn't be) is because the level from the controller to the transmitter is not set correctly and probably neither is the deviation control. Period. Ken That's exactly right. One does NOT set the repeat level on a repeater to what 'sounds right for the majority of users'. That will GUARANTEE splatter and excessive deviation, especially if you have a number of users who use older japanese rigs, and also spend a lot of time on SSB (louder is better...) A local repeater, which was a few miles down the road from where I lived at the time, had been set up so that 'it sounded good' on the 'tech guys' old Heath 2026, which had a VERY broad detector (mod acceptance was out around 10-12 Khz). I measured peaks well in excess of +/-15-18 Khz! Oh, btw, it was a Maggiore repeater. A freind of mine who worked for Motorola volunteered to set up the levels, and once he did, it wasn't splattering into adjacent channels anymore, but average levels were really low (poor audio design in the transmitter), so they went back in and turned it up. I bitched again, the moto guy came back and re-set it, and in a week it got turned back up again. Finally, they junked the Maggiore (and tossed the guy that was working on it) and somehow got a Micor mobile, which I set up for them. No problems after that. Ken, your comment about 'assuming the deviation limiter circuitry is working properly' is appropriate here, since he is using a Maggiore, and they are notorious for poor design in that regard, along with every other made-for-ham repeater. Poor transmit audio limiting, and inadequate rx limiting, resulting in poor noise rejection. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote: On our local EDACS PST clear voice audio from the switch receives ALC and minor compression before going to the dispatch consoles or being repeated. This helps maintain reasonably constant loudness to the dispatcher's headsets, and makes for more uniform system loudness. This is an 800 Mhz, 19 channel, 3 site simulcast system. Ssb I'm assuming when you say clear voice, you mean analog, vs either encrypted or unencrypted Voice Guard, AEGIS, or ProVoice. What you are hearing is AGC in the console electronics, and does not affect repeat audio. There may also be some AGC in the microwave or what ever means they use to connect the sites together, but only to keep the levels from exceeding 0dBm. BTW, what is a PST? Not familar with the term. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
The ALC cards process both repeated audio and console audio unless the system is in bypass. I can scan the block and level diagrams if you like. PST is Public Safety Trunk - Ssb I'm assuming when you say clear voice, you mean analog, (VOICE APPLIED TO THE CONSOLES IS ANALOG AND CONVERTED FROM DIGITAL TO ANALOG - AT PRESENT AEGIS IS NOT DECODED AT THE CONSOLES - PROVOICE IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION AND WILL DECODED AND SENT TO THE C3 MAESTRO CONSOLES) vs either encrypted or unencrypted Voice Guard, AEGIS, or ProVoice. What you are hearing is AGC in the console electronics, and does not affect repeat audio. There may also be some AGC in the microwave (THE MICROWAVE CARRIES 4, T1 CHANNELS CONVERTED FROM ANALOG IN A HARRIS INTRAPLEX MUX SHELF0 or what ever means they use to connect the sites together, but only to keep the levels from exceeding 0dBm. BTW, what is a PST? Not familar with the term. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 4/13/2005 10:57 PM, you wrote: I agree with Kevin on this, it's just a few users, and in person, these few people talk very loud, I think they are deaf, I just want the system to be heard all over the band, was the only reason I asked if there was a way to basically shunt it at a maximum, so they are not all over the place. I know they will clip out of the repeater, and that does not bother me, I generally tell them to talk softer, but I am not always around. I've already had some issues, don't need anymore. I can limit the max deviation from the controller, but if I set him so that he is no wider than say 5.5 Khz, then all the rest is down under 2.5 and that is to low. Your problems appear to be both in the repeater the users: -Your repeater's peak deviation should NEVER exceed 5 kHz. Period. If it does, either the deviation limiting control is not adjusted correctly or the limiter is not working properly. See my prior post on this subject for instructions on how to set up your TX audio. -Your users' deviations vary widely. Your options in this area are 1. Get your users to adjust their deviations to 4-5 kHz peak deviation. 2. Increase your TX audio to achieve greater that 1:1 input to output deviation ratio (note that this will cause your 5 kHz deviation users to sound distorted as their audio gets clipped in your repeater TX). 3. Get a CBS Volumax or Orban broadcast audio processor for your TX audio. We use the latter for space shuttle audio over our repeater it really improves intelligibility. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
You are correct Ken, Neil McKie - WA6KLA Ken Arck wrote: At 07:52 PM 4/13/2005 -0500, you wrote: ... snip ... In other words, simply adjusting the output of the controller to obtain 4.5 Khz deviation ain't gonna do it. Unless you force the transmitter into actual limiting (clipping), you'll never limit deviation correctly. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. Mathew Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 11:42 PM 4/13/2005 -, you wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. --First of all, are you bypassing the deviation limiters in the repeater's xmtr ? If so, either it's not working correctly or you haven't set up your audio levels correctly. What kind of radio is your repeater? Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 05:30 PM 4/13/2005 -0700, you wrote: If so, either it's not working correctly or you haven't set up your audio levels correctly. ---Uhhh. make that if NOT :-) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
The repeater is made up of a Maggoire HiPro transmitter, GE Mastr Pro ER41 receiver, Cat-1000 contoller. I am taking audio from the high side of the volume control in the ER41. I've turned up the transmitter to 4.5 Khz and the Cat-1000 tx level at right about 4.0 Khz, which passes the PL tones just fine. As for bypassing anything, no that I have not done, all is just as it was. Mathew -Original Message- From: Ken Arck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 7:30 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals At 11:42 PM 4/13/2005 -, you wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. --First of all, are you bypassing the deviation limiters in the repeater's xmtr ? If so, either it's not working correctly or you haven't set up your audio levels correctly. What kind of radio is your repeater? Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
w9mwq wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? What exactly are you wanting to limit? The level of the deviation, or the loudness of the user? While one would think a simple circuit would do both, it isn't that simple. Loudness is a perceived thing. I have seen Icom IC-2AT's set for 3.5 kilohertz deviation that sound louder than an Azden 6000 set at 6 kHz. The reason is the amount of clipping/processing ahead of the modulator, and how hard the user is driving that processing. Many Japanese radios have too much Mic gain. These radios tend to be very loud, even to the point of severe distortion. Some of these radios don't have a typical Mic Gain control, my Kenwood 742A is one such radio. My voice is loud, and my habit is to hold the mic close and talk directly into it. I have had to incorporate a mic gain control in most of my radios to tame down the loudness. Again, the deviation was not at fault, it's the amount of processing ahead of it that was the culprit. Limiting the maximum deviation in a repeater is simple, overdrive the mic input of the TX radio (to insure it is into clipping/limiting) and set your deviation adjustment for whatever you want your max. deviation at (like 5 kc) Then, reduce the input to the exciter (with the mic gain control) so a 1:1 deviation is obtained. 1 will equal 1, 2 - 2, 3-3, 4-4, 5 will be a little less than 5 and 6 will likely equal 5. When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. Mathew Simple audio processing will not control perceived loudness. In this instance, fixing the users radios or more complex audio processing is needed. Fixing the users radios is the best choice, but other more complex solutions are out there. For more on that, I suggest you read this: http://www.repeater-builder.com/tech-info/audioprocessing.html Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 07:52 PM 4/13/2005 -0500, you wrote: The repeater is made up of a Maggoire HiPro transmitter, GE Mastr Pro ER41 receiver, Cat-1000 contoller. I am taking audio from the high side of the volume control in the ER41. I've turned up the transmitter to 4.5 Khz and the Cat-1000 tx level at right about 4.0 Khz, which passes the PL tones just fine. As for bypassing anything, no that I have not done, all is just as it was. ---If you mean by I've turned up the transmitter to 4.5 Khz that you've adjusted the deviation control, what was your input deviation when you did that? I big mistake a lot of repeater owners make is not setting the deviation level while slightly overdriving the transmitter input to make sure the transmitter is actually limiting the deviation. This would explain how *any* user could force the transmitter to greater than 4.5 Khz, in your case. In other words, simply adjusting the output of the controller to obtain 4.5 Khz deviation ain't gonna do it. Unless you force the transmitter into actual limiting (clipping), you'll never limit deviation correctly. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Just so that the users are not over deviating and causing problems on adjacent channels. I've had all these settings set, it just seems that these few can tend to overdrive the deviation most of the time. Mathew -Original Message- From: Kevin Custer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:07 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals w9mwq wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 Khz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users whom no matter what radio they use, alwys clips well over 6 Khz wide. Is there a way to limit this? What exactly are you wanting to limit? The level of the deviation, or the loudness of the user? While one would think a simple circuit would do both, it isn't that simple. Loudness is a perceived thing. I have seen Icom IC-2AT's set for 3.5 kilohertz deviation that sound louder than an Azden 6000 set at 6 kHz. The reason is the amount of clipping/processing ahead of the modulator, and how hard the user is driving that processing. Many Japanese radios have too much Mic gain. These radios tend to be very loud, even to the point of severe distortion. Some of these radios don't have a typical Mic Gain control, my Kenwood 742A is one such radio. My voice is loud, and my habit is to hold the mic close and talk directly into it. I have had to incorporate a mic gain control in most of my radios to tame down the loudness. Again, the deviation was not at fault, it's the amount of processing ahead of it that was the culprit. Limiting the maximum deviation in a repeater is simple, overdrive the mic input of the TX radio (to insure it is into clipping/limiting) and set your deviation adjustment for whatever you want your max. deviation at (like 5 kc) Then, reduce the input to the exciter (with the mic gain control) so a 1:1 deviation is obtained. 1 will equal 1, 2 - 2, 3-3, 4-4, 5 will be a little less than 5 and 6 will likely equal 5. When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts. Or am I just plagued with loud voice users. Mathew Simple audio processing will not control perceived loudness. In this instance, fixing the users radios or more complex audio processing is needed. Fixing the users radios is the best choice, but other more complex solutions are out there. For more on that, I suggest you read this: http://www.repeater-builder.com/tech-info/audioprocessing.html Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Mathew, This is a common problem, especially when users with multiband/multimode radios use them on FM repeaters, not realizing that they are overdeviating. I guess it's a mixed blessing that some kind and gentle listeners will advise a repeater user that his/her signal is loud and clear when the report should have been overdeviated, distorted, and almost unreadable. Gotta love these kind and gentle folk! My solution is to incorporate a hard clipper that will prevent incoming signals with excessive deviation from being repeated at any more than a fixed limit. When CTCSS encode is used, as it normally is in my systems, I set the tone level to about 500 Hz and limit the repeat audio to about 4.3 kHz. In other words, I deliberately cause overdeviated incoming signals to be distorted so that other users will speak up and complain about that user's signal. I know I could use one of a number of soft AGC circuits to control the incoming audio before it is repeated, but that would not prompt the offending users to mend their ways. I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning average modulation too high when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY w9mwq wrote: I have set the deviation level of the repeater to 4.5 kHz, which for most users is excellent, however I have a few users who, no matter what radio they use, always clip well over 6 kHz wide. Is there a way to limit this? When these users come in, you have to turn down the volume, but then it's difficult to hear the normal voice users of the system. Any thoughts? Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
I think that is what I was getting to as well, if there was a way to limit the incoming audio, or like it was put, hope the other users lets the louder ones know they are too loud. As for the system, the audio levels are set just right for about 95% of the users. Mathew -Original Message- From: Dave VanHorn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:56 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals I know I could use one of a number of soft AGC circuits to control the incoming audio before it is repeated, but that would not prompt the offending users to mend their ways. I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning average modulation too high when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! Interesting.. Can you share any details? Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Dave VanHorn wrote: I know I could use one of a number of "soft AGC" circuits to control the incoming audio before it is repeated, but that would not prompt the offending users to mend their ways. I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning "average modulation too high" when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! Interesting.. Can you share any details? Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Eric Lemmon wrote: I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning average modulation too high when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! The first problem (and maybe most difficult to handle) is evaluating a noisy signal. I guess you could simply build a received quality indicator (squelch) that would only let the circuit work if sufficient quieting were being delivered to obtain meaningful readings, but then how do you deal with overshoot? Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 09:27 PM 4/13/2005 -0500, you wrote: I think that is what I was getting to as well, if there was a way to limit the incoming audio, or like it was put, hope the other users lets the louder ones know they are too loud. As for the system, the audio levels are set just right for about 95% of the users. ---I think many are either not listening or not grasping the concept here :-) It is not a matter of perceived deviation nor is it a matter of incoming levels. It is not because some users might be using an Icom and others are using a Kenwood. Since the deviation levels mentioned were actually measured, it is obvious that the transmitter is being to 6 Khz deviation on occasion and the only way this is going to happen (assuming the deviation limiter circuitry is working properly and I see no reason it shouldn't be) is because the level from the controller to the transmitter is not set correctly and probably neither is the deviation control. Period. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Dave, I should have known that my gambit would raise some eyebrows! In truth, my phrase working on is a euphemism for the vague period between thinking about concepts and experimenting with.hardware. I know all too well that few things are more irritating to repeater users than a function or voice announcement that asserts itself repeatedly for no apparent reason. Accordingly, my design must have enough intelligence to discriminate between real deviation that must be evaluated and false deviation caused by noise. I am hopeful that the collective knowledge available on this list can synthesize a working prototype. Stay tuned... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Dave VanHorn wrote: I know I could use one of a number of soft AGC circuits to control the incoming audio before it is repeated, but that would not prompt the offending users to mend their ways. I am working on an audio monitor that will interject the voice warning average modulation too high when it detects that overdeviation of the input signal is present. It is not a simple project! Interesting.. Can you share any details? Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Ken Arck wrote: It is not a matter of "perceived" deviation nor is it a matter of incoming levels. It is not because some users might be using an Icom and others are using a Kenwood. Since the deviation levels mentioned were actually measured, it is obvious that the transmitter is being to 6 Khz deviation on occasion and the only way this is going to happen (assuming the deviation limiter circuitry is working properly and I see no reason it shouldn't be) is because the level from the controller to the transmitter is not set correctly and probably neither is the deviation control. Period. 6 kilohertz of deviation, in and of itself isn't the problem. He could set the maximum repeater deviation to 5 khz, and the problem would still persist. You can have a repeater with no limiting and a user that is severely clipped and have a total deviation of only 3.5 kilohertz will sound considerably louder than a user running 5 kilohertz deviation not being clipped. Simple repeater processing cannot (and shouldn't) make everyone sound the same loudness. Audio processing should, however, provide a means of making sure the bandwidth being occupied stays within the limits of the particular application and its limits. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 11:18 PM 4/13/2005 -0400, you wrote: You can have a repeater with no limiting and a user that is severely clipped and have a total deviation of only 3.5 kilohertz will sound considerably louder than a user running 5 kilohertz deviation not being clipped. ---No argument about this at all, Kevin. However if I read him correctly, he said these dev amounts were measured on a service monitor. Regardless of whether one signal sounds louder than others or not, the amount of deviation is the amount of deviation :-) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
At 10:05 PM 4/13/2005, Eric Lemmon wrote: Dave, I should have known that my gambit would raise some eyebrows! In truth, my phrase working on is a euphemism for the vague period between thinking about concepts and experimenting with.hardware. I know all too well that few things are more irritating to repeater users than a function or voice announcement that asserts itself repeatedly for no apparent reason. Accordingly, my design must have enough intelligence to discriminate between real deviation that must be evaluated and false deviation caused by noise. I am hopeful that the collective knowledge available on this list can synthesize a working prototype. Stay tuned... I could maybe bend a solder iron or microcontroller in that direction. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Ken Arck wrote: At 11:18 PM 4/13/2005 -0400, you wrote: You can have a repeater with no limiting and a user that is severely clipped and have a total deviation of only 3.5 kilohertz will sound considerably louder than a user running 5 kilohertz deviation not being clipped. ---No argument about this at all, Kevin. However if I read him correctly, he said these dev amounts were measured on a service monitor. Regardless of whether one signal sounds louder than others or not, the amount of deviation is the amount of deviation :-) I'd bet he has his deviation set to 4.5 kilohertz; where clipping of his repeater transmitter starts to occur. In a Maggiore transmitter (could happen in a Micor or Mastr II as well) harmonic filtering of the clipper can add to the total deviation. Have you ever set up an exciter using a fixed audio tone (say, 1 kHz), where you adjust the deviation control pot to yield 5 kHz deviation. The limiter in most two-way radios is really just a clipper; no fancy compression or AGC or anything. So theoretically whatever tone you stick into the input should be hard-limited at 5 kHz deviation by the clipper. But if you crank up the audio generator some more, say increase it another 6 dB, the deviation will creep up somewhat, maybe to 5.5 kHz. If you really slam it hard, you might see 6 kHz deviation or more. Why? Is the clipper failing to clip? Nope. The problem is caused by the low-pass splatter filter. Here's why... Clipping produces odd-order harmonics. The low-pass filter's job is to scrub off those clipping harmonics to prevent the bandwidth from exceeding limits. Occupied bandwidth in FM is a function of the deviation AND the audio bandwidth (actual modulating frequency). The goal is to keep both properly limited to prevent the signal from getting to wide and splattering onto adjacent channels. The problem comes in when the audio is excessively clipped, which puts more and more energy into the harmonics. The splatter filter attenuates those harmonics -- that's its job. In order for the signal to remain perfectly limited (clipped), all of those harmonics need to be maintained, both in amplitude as well as phase coherence, but obviously we can't do that. As the harmonics are filtered off, the fundamental will overshoot the preset clipping point. And the more harmonic content is being filtered off, the more overshoot there will be. His original complaint doesn't point to a problem in the set-up of the repeater, it does, however, point to users that are severely clipped. The fix isn't in the repeater, but rather in the users radios that are too hot. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote: On our local EDACS PST clear voice audio from the switch receives ALC and minor compression before going to the dispatch consoles or being repeated. How much exactly is the amount of minor comprerssion, 2 to 1 or more? Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals
I agree with Kevin on this, it's just a few users, and in person, these few people talk very loud, I think they are deaf, I just want the system to be heard all over the band, was the only reason I asked if there was a way to basically shunt it at a maximum, so they are not all over the place. I know they will clip out of the repeater, and that does not bother me, I generally tell them to talk softer, but I am not always around. I've already had some issues, don't need anymore. I can limit the max deviation from the controller, but if I set him so that he is no wider than say 5.5 Khz, then all the rest is down under 2.5 and that is to low. It was just a thought. The one user is going to bring his radio by and see just what it is doing audio wise, it might be set to high to begin with, and with him having a loud voice, might be just over doing it all. Mathew -Original Message- From: Kevin Custer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:08 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Audio limiting on incoming signals Ken Arck wrote: At 11:18 PM 4/13/2005 -0400, you wrote: You can have a repeater with no limiting and a user that is severely clipped and have a total deviation of only 3.5 kilohertz will sound considerably louder than a user running 5 kilohertz deviation not being clipped. ---No argument about this at all, Kevin. However if I read him correctly, he said these dev amounts were measured on a service monitor. Regardless of whether one signal sounds louder than others or not, the amount of deviation is the amount of deviation :-) I'd bet he has his deviation set to 4.5 kilohertz; where clipping of his repeater transmitter starts to occur. In a Maggiore transmitter (could happen in a Micor or Mastr II as well) harmonic filtering of the clipper can add to the total deviation. Have you ever set up an exciter using a fixed audio tone (say, 1 kHz), where you adjust the deviation control pot to yield 5 kHz deviation. The limiter in most two-way radios is really just a clipper; no fancy compression or AGC or anything. So theoretically whatever tone you stick into the input should be hard-limited at 5 kHz deviation by the clipper. But if you crank up the audio generator some more, say increase it another 6 dB, the deviation will creep up somewhat, maybe to 5.5 kHz. If you really slam it hard, you might see 6 kHz deviation or more. Why? Is the clipper failing to clip? Nope. The problem is caused by the low-pass splatter filter. Here's why... Clipping produces odd-order harmonics. The low-pass filter's job is to scrub off those clipping harmonics to prevent the bandwidth from exceeding limits. Occupied bandwidth in FM is a function of the deviation AND the audio bandwidth (actual modulating frequency). The goal is to keep both properly limited to prevent the signal from getting to wide and splattering onto adjacent channels. The problem comes in when the audio is excessively clipped, which puts more and more energy into the harmonics. The splatter filter attenuates those harmonics -- that's its job. In order for the signal to remain perfectly limited (clipped), all of those harmonics need to be maintained, both in amplitude as well as phase coherence, but obviously we can't do that. As the harmonics are filtered off, the fundamental will overshoot the preset clipping point. And the more harmonic content is being filtered off, the more overshoot there will be. His original complaint doesn't point to a problem in the set-up of the repeater, it does, however, point to users that are severely clipped. The fix isn't in the repeater, but rather in the users radios that are too hot. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
