[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Then call the stinking things 12 amp and 16 amp circuits; for crying out loud!!! The United States is FULL of examples of this type of DISHONESTY (can you say horsepower?). No wonder the US has become a third rate country and their products (those that ARE still made here) have no credibility in the world market. Just like the half gallon of ice cream that now weighs 48 ounces; and I could go on and on! ONLY in the US. Tom 1 -- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ron, That is a good question. The answer is that one is not supposed to connect any load greater than 12 amperes to an outlet rated at 15 amperes, that is, a NEMA 5-15R receptacle. The NEC allows two or more 15-ampere-rated outlets to be installed on a 20-ampere branch circuit (wired with 12 AWG conductors and a 20A fuse or circuit breaker), but the limit of 12 amperes on each outlet still applies. Proof of this restriction is evident in the vacuum cleaner wars of a decade or so ago. Hoover came out with a vacuum cleaner with 7 amperes of cleaning power. Then Bissel came out with a unit claiming 9 amperes of cleaning power. Other vacuum cleaner makers entered the fray until all of the brands had units with 12 amperes of cleaning power. The reason that nobody offered a unit with 13 amperes of cleaning power is because they would then have to equip that unit with a NEMA 5-20P plug and at least a 14/3 power cord. Most older homes do not have NEMA 5-20R outlets, so such a vacuum cleaner could not be plugged in to the outlets in most homes. Besides, there is no credibility to a laughable rating of cleaning power expressed in amperes! That is about as silly as claiming that a mobile radio has 13.8 volts of talk power! Back to your second question. By definition, a 15-ampere-rated branch circuit has circuit conductors of #14 AWG or larger, and is protected by a fuse or circuit breaker rated at 15 amperes. The fuse or circuit breaker should hold indefinitely at 15 amperes, but the NEC recognizes that allowing 100% of rated current is never a good idea, since wiring in attics may already be in a very hot environment. Therefore, the NEC requires that no ordinary branch circuit be permitted to be loaded more than 80% of the circuit rating. That's where the 12 and 16 ampere limits come from. Another issue is voltage drop, which is directly proportional to circuit loading. Circuits that are loaded to 100% of rating will probably have excessive voltage drop, which leads to inefficient operation. Good electrical design dictates that the wire size be increased for long runs, to keep the voltage drop below 3%. Moreover, an adequate electrical supply system should never experience more than 80% loading of any circuit. Very heavy single loads should have a dedicated branch circuit of suitable capacity, with a single outlet. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Wright Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:07 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Eric, Question about the outlets. Is the only reason one cannot get more than 12 amp from a 15 amp outlet is the rules so if one is designing a power system if more than 12 amps is required one has to put in 20 amp outlet to meet code??? I would think one could get 15 amps due to the breaker able to handle it or are 15 amp breakers designed to trip at just above 12 amps??? 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:wb6fly%40verizon.net Date: 2008/07/17 Thu PM 11:00:53 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Wayne, That is not exactly true. An outlet rated at 15 amperes cannot have any load greater than 12 amperes plugged into it. An outlet rated at 20 amperes cannot have any load greater than 16 amperes plugged into it. This is clearly stated in Article 210.21(B)(2) of the National Electrical Code. A device that actually draws 20 amperes at 120 VAC must be plugged into an outlet and branch circuit rated at 30 amperes. When load currents exceed 16 amperes at 120 VAC, it's time to consider a branch circuit rated at 208 or 240 VAC. Most repeaters and high-power PAs have optional connections to enable operation on 208 or 240 VAC. Keep in mind that there is no such voltage as 220 although that obsolete figure is still in common usage. The nominal single-phase voltage supplied to residences is 120/240 VAC, while the electrical supply to light commercial, apartment complexes, and condos is usually 120/208 VAC derived from two phases of a three-phase distribution system. I mention this because a fellow Ham who now lives in a large apartment complex mentioned to me
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
That's the problem. Nothing/nobody delivers what it/they're rated/expected to deliver. I do not consider it acceptable for shysters to shirk their responsibility by citing engineering practice as an excuse. Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Pelnar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric, Nice explanation. Good engineering practice. However, circuits can be loaded 100% as long as it is not a continuous load (operated for more than 4 hours). Vacuum cleaners (not likely to run 4 hours at a time) are more likely limited to 12 amps due to minimum circuit opacity for motor loads requiring an additional 25% of the load, so as to not overload a 15 amp circuit. I apologize to all the non electricians reading this. Due to the amazingly confusing way the NEC is written, it's hard for electricians to pass up a good code argument. :) Once again, very good engineering practice, Eric, in spite of the code details. Gerald Pelnar WD0FYF McPherson, Ks - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:47 PM Subject: RE: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Ron, That is a good question. The answer is that one is not supposed to connect any load greater than 12 amperes to an outlet rated at 15 amperes, that is, a NEMA 5-15R receptacle. The NEC allows two or more 15-ampere-rated outlets to be installed on a 20-ampere branch circuit (wired with 12 AWG conductors and a 20A fuse or circuit breaker), but the limit of 12 amperes on each outlet still applies. Proof of this restriction is evident in the vacuum cleaner wars of a decade or so ago. Hoover came out with a vacuum cleaner with 7 amperes of cleaning power. Then Bissel came out with a unit claiming 9 amperes of cleaning power. Other vacuum cleaner makers entered the fray until all of the brands had units with 12 amperes of cleaning power. The reason that nobody offered a unit with 13 amperes of cleaning power is because they would then have to equip that unit with a NEMA 5-20P plug and at least a 14/3 power cord. Most older homes do not have NEMA 5-20R outlets, so such a vacuum cleaner could not be plugged in to the outlets in most homes. Besides, there is no credibility to a laughable rating of cleaning power expressed in amperes! That is about as silly as claiming that a mobile radio has 13.8 volts of talk power! Back to your second question. By definition, a 15-ampere-rated branch circuit has circuit conductors of #14 AWG or larger, and is protected by a fuse or circuit breaker rated at 15 amperes. The fuse or circuit breaker should hold indefinitely at 15 amperes, but the NEC recognizes that allowing 100% of rated current is never a good idea, since wiring in attics may already be in a very hot environment. Therefore, the NEC requires that no ordinary branch circuit be permitted to be loaded more than 80% of the circuit rating. That's where the 12 and 16 ampere limits come from. Another issue is voltage drop, which is directly proportional to circuit loading. Circuits that are loaded to 100% of rating will probably have excessive voltage drop, which leads to inefficient operation. Good electrical design dictates that the wire size be increased for long runs, to keep the voltage drop below 3%. Moreover, an adequate electrical supply system should never experience more than 80% loading of any circuit. Very heavy single loads should have a dedicated branch circuit of suitable capacity, with a single outlet. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Besides, there is no credibility to a laughable rating of cleaning power expressed in amperes! That is about as silly as claiming that a mobile radio has 13.8 volts of talk power Not exactly. You can see that the vacuum is designed for 120 volt operation (plus or minus) and they tell you the maximum current, therefore you have an approximate volt-amp rating for the motor. Assuming the power factor of the small motors is fairly similar (I don't know that but I would guess they are) you now have an APPROXIMATION of the amount of work the motor can do. In the case of the 13.8 volts, no other information is given. You therefore have NO idea of the input power of the transmitter, etc. Of course, in the case of the vacuum, impeller design, housing design, air flow routing, and numerous other factors come in to play but, short of an industry standard rating, it's better than nothing. Tom -- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ron, That is a good question. The answer is that one is not supposed to connect any load greater than 12 amperes to an outlet rated at 15 amperes, that is, a NEMA 5-15R receptacle. The NEC allows two or more 15-ampere-rated outlets to be installed on a 20-ampere branch circuit (wired with 12 AWG conductors and a 20A fuse or circuit breaker), but the limit of 12 amperes on each outlet still applies. Proof of this restriction is evident in the vacuum cleaner wars of a decade or so ago. Hoover came out with a vacuum cleaner with 7 amperes of cleaning power. Then Bissel came out with a unit claiming 9 amperes of cleaning power. Other vacuum cleaner makers entered the fray until all of the brands had units with 12 amperes of cleaning power. The reason that nobody offered a unit with 13 amperes of cleaning power is because they would then have to equip that unit with a NEMA 5-20P plug and at least a 14/3 power cord. Most older homes do not have NEMA 5-20R outlets, so such a vacuum cleaner could not be plugged in to the outlets in most homes. Besides, there is no credibility to a laughable rating of cleaning power expressed in amperes! That is about as silly as claiming that a mobile radio has 13.8 volts of talk power! Back to your second question. By definition, a 15-ampere-rated branch circuit has circuit conductors of #14 AWG or larger, and is protected by a fuse or circuit breaker rated at 15 amperes. The fuse or circuit breaker should hold indefinitely at 15 amperes, but the NEC recognizes that allowing 100% of rated current is never a good idea, since wiring in attics may already be in a very hot environment. Therefore, the NEC requires that no ordinary branch circuit be permitted to be loaded more than 80% of the circuit rating. That's where the 12 and 16 ampere limits come from. Another issue is voltage drop, which is directly proportional to circuit loading. Circuits that are loaded to 100% of rating will probably have excessive voltage drop, which leads to inefficient operation. Good electrical design dictates that the wire size be increased for long runs, to keep the voltage drop below 3%. Moreover, an adequate electrical supply system should never experience more than 80% loading of any circuit. Very heavy single loads should have a dedicated branch circuit of suitable capacity, with a single outlet. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Wright Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:07 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Eric, Question about the outlets. Is the only reason one cannot get more than 12 amp from a 15 amp outlet is the rules so if one is designing a power system if more than 12 amps is required one has to put in 20 amp outlet to meet code??? I would think one could get 15 amps due to the breaker able to handle it or are 15 amp breakers designed to trip at just above 12 amps??? 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:wb6fly%40verizon.net Date: 2008/07/17 Thu PM 11:00:53 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Wayne, That is not exactly true. An outlet rated at 15 amperes cannot have any load greater than 12 amperes plugged into it. An outlet rated at 20 amperes cannot have any load greater than 16 amperes plugged into it. This is clearly stated in Article 210.21(B)(2) of the National Electrical Code. A device that actually draws 20 amperes at 120 VAC must be plugged into an outlet and branch circuit rated at 30 amperes. When load currents exceed 16 amperes at 120 VAC, it's time to consider a branch circuit rated at 208 or 240 VAC. Most repeaters and high-power PAs have optional connections to enable operation on 208
Re: RE: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Eric, Thanks for the info. Yes we all went thru the vacuum cleaner current junk days. I guess was good marketing tool. Now it is how quiet and how it will clean your home air. Still little about how well it will clean what you want it for except for picking up MMs and bolts. The bowling ball pick up is still hanging in there, hi. So we can get 15 Amps out of a 15 amp 14-2 w/G circuit if needed. That was my question. The safety factor is my concern. We all know we should normally not load 100%, but how does one know in typical life. Most users don't even know what load is let alone how much it is. That is where the NEC comes in to give some assurance it is safe, not workable, but safe and that is how it should be. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/17 Thu PM 11:47:03 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Ron, That is a good question. The answer is that one is not supposed to connect any load greater than 12 amperes to an outlet rated at 15 amperes, that is, a NEMA 5-15R receptacle. The NEC allows two or more 15-ampere-rated outlets to be installed on a 20-ampere branch circuit (wired with 12 AWG conductors and a 20A fuse or circuit breaker), but the limit of 12 amperes on each outlet still applies. Proof of this restriction is evident in the vacuum cleaner wars of a decade or so ago. Hoover came out with a vacuum cleaner with 7 amperes of cleaning power. Then Bissel came out with a unit claiming 9 amperes of cleaning power. Other vacuum cleaner makers entered the fray until all of the brands had units with 12 amperes of cleaning power. The reason that nobody offered a unit with 13 amperes of cleaning power is because they would then have to equip that unit with a NEMA 5-20P plug and at least a 14/3 power cord. Most older homes do not have NEMA 5-20R outlets, so such a vacuum cleaner could not be plugged in to the outlets in most homes. Besides, there is no credibility to a laughable rating of cleaning power expressed in amperes! That is about as silly as claiming that a mobile radio has 13.8 volts of talk power! Back to your second question. By definition, a 15-ampere-rated branch circuit has circuit conductors of #14 AWG or larger, and is protected by a fuse or circuit breaker rated at 15 amperes. The fuse or circuit breaker should hold indefinitely at 15 amperes, but the NEC recognizes that allowing 100% of rated current is never a good idea, since wiring in attics may already be in a very hot environment. Therefore, the NEC requires that no ordinary branch circuit be permitted to be loaded more than 80% of the circuit rating. That's where the 12 and 16 ampere limits come from. Another issue is voltage drop, which is directly proportional to circuit loading. Circuits that are loaded to 100% of rating will probably have excessive voltage drop, which leads to inefficient operation. Good electrical design dictates that the wire size be increased for long runs, to keep the voltage drop below 3%. Moreover, an adequate electrical supply system should never experience more than 80% loading of any circuit. Very heavy single loads should have a dedicated branch circuit of suitable capacity, with a single outlet. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Wright Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:07 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Eric, Question about the outlets. Is the only reason one cannot get more than 12 amp from a 15 amp outlet is the rules so if one is designing a power system if more than 12 amps is required one has to put in 20 amp outlet to meet code??? I would think one could get 15 amps due to the breaker able to handle it or are 15 amp breakers designed to trip at just above 12 amps??? 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:wb6fly%40verizon.net Date: 2008/07/17 Thu PM 11:00:53 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Wayne, That is not exactly true. An outlet rated at 15 amperes cannot have any load greater than 12 amperes plugged into it. An outlet rated at 20 amperes cannot have any load greater than 16 amperes plugged into it. This is clearly stated in Article 210.21(B)(2) of the National Electrical Code. A device that actually draws 20 amperes at 120 VAC must be plugged into an outlet and branch circuit rated at 30 amperes. When load currents exceed 16 amperes at 120 VAC, it's time to consider a branch circuit rated at 208 or 240 VAC. Most repeaters and high-power PAs have optional connections to enable operation on 208 or 240 VAC. Keep in mind that there is no such voltage as 220 although that obsolete figure
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Well stated Ron! Ron Wright wrote: Eric, Thanks for the info. Yes we all went thru the vacuum cleaner current junk days. I guess was good marketing tool. Now it is how quiet and how it will clean your home air. Still little about how well it will clean what you want it for except for picking up MMs and bolts. The bowling ball pick up is still hanging in there, hi. So we can get 15 Amps out of a 15 amp 14-2 w/G circuit if needed. That was my question. The safety factor is my concern. We all know we should normally not load 100%, but how does one know in typical life. Most users don't even know what load is let alone how much it is. That is where the NEC comes in to give some assurance it is safe, not workable, but safe and that is how it should be. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/17 Thu PM 11:47:03 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Ron, That is a good question. The answer is that one is not supposed to connect any load greater than 12 amperes to an outlet rated at 15 amperes, that is, a NEMA 5-15R receptacle. The NEC allows two or more 15-ampere-rated outlets to be installed on a 20-ampere branch circuit (wired with 12 AWG conductors and a 20A fuse or circuit breaker), but the limit of 12 amperes on each outlet still applies. Proof of this restriction is evident in the vacuum cleaner wars of a decade or so ago. Hoover came out with a vacuum cleaner with 7 amperes of cleaning power. Then Bissel came out with a unit claiming 9 amperes of cleaning power. Other vacuum cleaner makers entered the fray until all of the brands had units with 12 amperes of cleaning power. The reason that nobody offered a unit with 13 amperes of cleaning power is because they would then have to equip that unit with a NEMA 5-20P plug and at least a 14/3 power cord. Most older homes do not have NEMA 5-20R outlets, so such a vacuum cleaner could not be plugged in to the outlets in most homes. Besides, there is no credibility to a laughable rating of cleaning power expressed in amperes! That is about as silly as claiming that a mobile radio has 13.8 volts of talk power! Back to your second question. By definition, a 15-ampere-rated branch circuit has circuit conductors of #14 AWG or larger, and is protected by a fuse or circuit breaker rated at 15 amperes. The fuse or circuit breaker should hold indefinitely at 15 amperes, but the NEC recognizes that allowing 100% of rated current is never a good idea, since wiring in attics may already be in a very hot environment. Therefore, the NEC requires that no ordinary branch circuit be permitted to be loaded more than 80% of the circuit rating. That's where the 12 and 16 ampere limits come from. Another issue is voltage drop, which is directly proportional to circuit loading. Circuits that are loaded to 100% of rating will probably have excessive voltage drop, which leads to inefficient operation. Good electrical design dictates that the wire size be increased for long runs, to keep the voltage drop below 3%. Moreover, an adequate electrical supply system should never experience more than 80% loading of any circuit. Very heavy single loads should have a dedicated branch circuit of suitable capacity, with a single outlet. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Wright Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:07 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Eric, Question about the outlets. Is the only reason one cannot get more than 12 amp from a 15 amp outlet is the rules so if one is designing a power system if more than 12 amps is required one has to put in 20 amp outlet to meet code??? I would think one could get 15 amps due to the breaker able to handle it or are 15 amp breakers designed to trip at just above 12 amps??? 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:wb6fly%40verizon.net Date: 2008/07/17 Thu PM 11:00:53 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Wayne, That is not exactly true. An outlet rated at 15 amperes cannot have any load greater than 12 amperes plugged into it. An outlet rated at 20 amperes cannot have any load greater than 16 amperes plugged into it. This is clearly stated in Article 210.21(B)(2) of the National Electrical Code. A device that actually draws 20 amperes at 120 VAC must be plugged into an outlet and branch circuit rated at 30 amperes. When load currents exceed 16 amperes at 120 VAC, it's time to consider a branch circuit rated at 208 or 240 VAC. Most repeaters and high-power PAs have optional connections to enable operation on 208 or 240 VAC. Keep
Re: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
breakers are ratedat '80%' it's not the wire or outlets that determine load allowed, but (breaker rating) x 80% - Original Message - From: Ron Wright To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: Re: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Eric, Question about the outlets. Is the only reason one cannot get more than 12 amp from a 15 amp outlet is the rules so if one is designing a power system if more than 12 amps is required one has to put in 20 amp outlet to meet code??? I would think one could get 15 amps due to the breaker able to handle it or are 15 amp breakers designed to trip at just above 12 amps??? 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/17 Thu PM 11:00:53 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Wayne, That is not exactly true. An outlet rated at 15 amperes cannot have any load greater than 12 amperes plugged into it. An outlet rated at 20 amperes cannot have any load greater than 16 amperes plugged into it. This is clearly stated in Article 210.21(B)(2) of the National Electrical Code. A device that actually draws 20 amperes at 120 VAC must be plugged into an outlet and branch circuit rated at 30 amperes. When load currents exceed 16 amperes at 120 VAC, it's time to consider a branch circuit rated at 208 or 240 VAC. Most repeaters and high-power PAs have optional connections to enable operation on 208 or 240 VAC. Keep in mind that there is no such voltage as 220 although that obsolete figure is still in common usage. The nominal single-phase voltage supplied to residences is 120/240 VAC, while the electrical supply to light commercial, apartment complexes, and condos is usually 120/208 VAC derived from two phases of a three-phase distribution system. I mention this because a fellow Ham who now lives in a large apartment complex mentioned to me that his 500 watt rig that worked fine in his former home was not putting out full power at his new location. The cause was revealed when he measured his line-to-line voltage as close to 208 VAC. His power amplifier was rated for 240 VAC, but was starving when fed 87% of its design voltage. A commercially-available boost transformer was installed to give him a true 240 VAC supply. Problem solved. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:01 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies To properly plug in an item that is a 20 amp draw. etc., one should install a 20 amp outlet. This can be single or duplex, and is readily spotted (if dual purpose) by the fact that one side will be flat instead of vertical, or have both horizontal and vertical on that side. the flat/horizontal is on the neutral side. Not to be confused with a similar looking outlet for 250 volts, which has two flats , and one has vertical as well on the left side, looking at the front with the ground hole down. Anyway, there are oulets made for 20 or more amps, which are different than the 15 amp common outlets. local ordinances can often be more stringent than even the NEC codes. of course, if you are running a high power repeater, you would probably wish to put it on a circuit breaker by itself. But ordinary house wiring normally has several outlets wired in series from one breaker, and is NEC approved that way. Shop and Industrial become another matter, ha ha ha... Wayne WA2YNE On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:08:33 -0500, Bruce Bagwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I figured that was A local code, not NEC. The only reason I can think of for that requirement is the ampacity of the 12 or 14 ga wires. While we all know, in actual use, 2 or more outlets strung along will not all have 15 amp or higher loads in EACH outlet. However, theoretically, each outlet could have A 20 amp load plugged into it.That is probably why some pencil pusher decided each outlet needs its own wire. (Never mind the fact the breaker would trip regardless of what is plugged into each outlet or the number of wires leading to said outlets, but that's another crazy thread) As for the Breaker Box, I would assume each also has its own breaker. Trying to stuff more than one wire into A breaker would more fun than I care to have. Bruce KE5TPN -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ Yahoo! Groups Links Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome. No virus
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
To properly plug in an item that is a 20 amp draw. etc., one should install a 20 amp outlet. This can be single or duplex, and is readily spotted (if dual purpose) by the fact that one side will be flat instead of vertical, or have both horizontal and vertical on that side. the flat/horizontal is on the neutral side. Not to be confused with a similar looking outlet for 250 volts, which has two flats , and one has vertical as well on the left side, looking at the front with the ground hole down. Anyway, there are oulets made for 20 or more amps, which are different than the 15 amp common outlets. local ordinances can often be more stringent than even the NEC codes. of course, if you are running a high power repeater, you would probably wish to put it on a circuit breaker by itself. But ordinary house wiring normally has several outlets wired in series from one breaker, and is NEC approved that way. Shop and Industrial become another matter, ha ha ha... Wayne WA2YNE On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:08:33 -0500, Bruce Bagwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I figured that was A local code, not NEC. The only reason I can think of for that requirement is the ampacity of the 12 or 14 ga wires. While we all know, in actual use, 2 or more outlets strung along will not all have 15 amp or higher loads in EACH outlet. However, theoretically, each outlet could have A 20 amp load plugged into it.That is probably why some pencil pusher decided each outlet needs its own wire. (Never mind the fact the breaker would trip regardless of what is plugged into each outlet or the number of wires leading to said outlets, but that's another crazy thread) As for the Breaker Box, I would assume each also has its own breaker. Trying to stuff more than one wire into A breaker would more fun than I care to have. Bruce KE5TPN -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Wayne, That is not exactly true. An outlet rated at 15 amperes cannot have any load greater than 12 amperes plugged into it. An outlet rated at 20 amperes cannot have any load greater than 16 amperes plugged into it. This is clearly stated in Article 210.21(B)(2) of the National Electrical Code. A device that actually draws 20 amperes at 120 VAC must be plugged into an outlet and branch circuit rated at 30 amperes. When load currents exceed 16 amperes at 120 VAC, it's time to consider a branch circuit rated at 208 or 240 VAC. Most repeaters and high-power PAs have optional connections to enable operation on 208 or 240 VAC. Keep in mind that there is no such voltage as 220 although that obsolete figure is still in common usage. The nominal single-phase voltage supplied to residences is 120/240 VAC, while the electrical supply to light commercial, apartment complexes, and condos is usually 120/208 VAC derived from two phases of a three-phase distribution system. I mention this because a fellow Ham who now lives in a large apartment complex mentioned to me that his 500 watt rig that worked fine in his former home was not putting out full power at his new location. The cause was revealed when he measured his line-to-line voltage as close to 208 VAC. His power amplifier was rated for 240 VAC, but was starving when fed 87% of its design voltage. A commercially-available boost transformer was installed to give him a true 240 VAC supply. Problem solved. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:01 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies To properly plug in an item that is a 20 amp draw. etc., one should install a 20 amp outlet. This can be single or duplex, and is readily spotted (if dual purpose) by the fact that one side will be flat instead of vertical, or have both horizontal and vertical on that side. the flat/horizontal is on the neutral side. Not to be confused with a similar looking outlet for 250 volts, which has two flats , and one has vertical as well on the left side, looking at the front with the ground hole down. Anyway, there are oulets made for 20 or more amps, which are different than the 15 amp common outlets. local ordinances can often be more stringent than even the NEC codes. of course, if you are running a high power repeater, you would probably wish to put it on a circuit breaker by itself. But ordinary house wiring normally has several outlets wired in series from one breaker, and is NEC approved that way. Shop and Industrial become another matter, ha ha ha... Wayne WA2YNE On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:08:33 -0500, Bruce Bagwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I figured that was A local code, not NEC. The only reason I can think of for that requirement is the ampacity of the 12 or 14 ga wires. While we all know, in actual use, 2 or more outlets strung along will not all have 15 amp or higher loads in EACH outlet. However, theoretically, each outlet could have A 20 amp load plugged into it.That is probably why some pencil pusher decided each outlet needs its own wire. (Never mind the fact the breaker would trip regardless of what is plugged into each outlet or the number of wires leading to said outlets, but that's another crazy thread) As for the Breaker Box, I would assume each also has its own breaker. Trying to stuff more than one wire into A breaker would more fun than I care to have. Bruce KE5TPN -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Eric, Question about the outlets. Is the only reason one cannot get more than 12 amp from a 15 amp outlet is the rules so if one is designing a power system if more than 12 amps is required one has to put in 20 amp outlet to meet code??? I would think one could get 15 amps due to the breaker able to handle it or are 15 amp breakers designed to trip at just above 12 amps??? 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/17 Thu PM 11:00:53 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Wayne, That is not exactly true. An outlet rated at 15 amperes cannot have any load greater than 12 amperes plugged into it. An outlet rated at 20 amperes cannot have any load greater than 16 amperes plugged into it. This is clearly stated in Article 210.21(B)(2) of the National Electrical Code. A device that actually draws 20 amperes at 120 VAC must be plugged into an outlet and branch circuit rated at 30 amperes. When load currents exceed 16 amperes at 120 VAC, it's time to consider a branch circuit rated at 208 or 240 VAC. Most repeaters and high-power PAs have optional connections to enable operation on 208 or 240 VAC. Keep in mind that there is no such voltage as 220 although that obsolete figure is still in common usage. The nominal single-phase voltage supplied to residences is 120/240 VAC, while the electrical supply to light commercial, apartment complexes, and condos is usually 120/208 VAC derived from two phases of a three-phase distribution system. I mention this because a fellow Ham who now lives in a large apartment complex mentioned to me that his 500 watt rig that worked fine in his former home was not putting out full power at his new location. The cause was revealed when he measured his line-to-line voltage as close to 208 VAC. His power amplifier was rated for 240 VAC, but was starving when fed 87% of its design voltage. A commercially-available boost transformer was installed to give him a true 240 VAC supply. Problem solved. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:01 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies To properly plug in an item that is a 20 amp draw. etc., one should install a 20 amp outlet. This can be single or duplex, and is readily spotted (if dual purpose) by the fact that one side will be flat instead of vertical, or have both horizontal and vertical on that side. the flat/horizontal is on the neutral side. Not to be confused with a similar looking outlet for 250 volts, which has two flats , and one has vertical as well on the left side, looking at the front with the ground hole down. Anyway, there are oulets made for 20 or more amps, which are different than the 15 amp common outlets. local ordinances can often be more stringent than even the NEC codes. of course, if you are running a high power repeater, you would probably wish to put it on a circuit breaker by itself. But ordinary house wiring normally has several outlets wired in series from one breaker, and is NEC approved that way. Shop and Industrial become another matter, ha ha ha... Wayne WA2YNE On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:08:33 -0500, Bruce Bagwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I figured that was A local code, not NEC. The only reason I can think of for that requirement is the ampacity of the 12 or 14 ga wires. While we all know, in actual use, 2 or more outlets strung along will not all have 15 amp or higher loads in EACH outlet. However, theoretically, each outlet could have A 20 amp load plugged into it.That is probably why some pencil pusher decided each outlet needs its own wire. (Never mind the fact the breaker would trip regardless of what is plugged into each outlet or the number of wires leading to said outlets, but that's another crazy thread) As for the Breaker Box, I would assume each also has its own breaker. Trying to stuff more than one wire into A breaker would more fun than I care to have. Bruce KE5TPN -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ Yahoo! Groups Links Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Sounds like a government spec... when 15 is really 12. Joe M. Ron Wright wrote: I would think one could get 15 amps due to the breaker able to handle it or are 15 amp breakers designed to trip at just above 12 amps??? 73, ron, n9ee/r
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
I have seen instances where a light switch to a ceiling fixture was put in the neutral side, nd not the hot side of the line. I have also seen where some hams, to save money, were using 120 volt 3 prong plugs for their mobile radios. Thinking what would happen if someone else plugged it into a 120 volt outlet, ha ha ha. I also dislike 12 volt light fixtures that take a 12 volt screw in bulb of the same size as a 120 volt light bulb. Took me a while to figure that out on a 5th wheel I had, and putting a 120volt bulb in it would not light. A previous owner had rewired the light over the bathroom sink for 120 volts, but using zip cord. At one corner of a 10 acre plot, of which I own 1/4, there is an electrical box on a pole, no switches or breakers, that still has 430 volts coming into it. they use a lot of supposed 480 volt motors around here for oil well pumps. They wire two transformer outputs in series to get the 480. Some, but not all, meter boxes are marked 480 volts. I see a lot of poor wiring around this area. I even found one outlet in this house, one of only two left, that had the white and black wires reversed. I redid that before I hooke that line up to a new breaker panel. I had to extend the wire, but did that in a box to be sure of what I had. I always tend to check each outlet to be sure it is wired correctly. Most of the ceiling lights that had been in here were poorly wired with no boxes at the fixtures. I'm putting in boxes where I will be wiring ceiling/wall fixtures. It doesn't take that much to do a proper wiring job, compared to a lousy jb with possible hazards... YMMV Wayne WA2YNE On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:39:50 -0500, Bruce Bagwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are many makes of voltage sensing sticks one can get basically anywhere. Many times I have seen outlets Converted to 3 wire from two, only to find all they did was ground from the neutral wire. That means I get all kinds of RFI and if the Ground ever dropped, it would be HOT just from the return from the light bulb or whatever. BTW, those cheap Testers will NOT detect HOT/Ground/Neutral Reverse! If in doubt, run a wire from a known ground to your Meter and find what wires are Hot I remember A house I rented, every time I touched the light switch/outlet in the garage I got tickled Glad I knew what was going on or else I might have made full contact, and I would not be typing this right now! Swapped the HOT/Neutral/Ground and all was OK! Always remember, just because the outlet is Grounded does not mean it is really Grounded Verify! Stay safe out there! Bruce Bagwell KE5TPN -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
It's funny that you should mention that... I am the Chief Engineer for 2 television stations where I live. One of my transmitters is out of state in Arkansas. I too built two identical buildings for my full power ATSC transmitters. The building out of state was such a breeze!!!.. Because the square footage was less than X.. I didn't require any inspections, or strange permits The state feller showed up, looked up at the tower, had a cup of coffee, and asked questions not related to building, (hunting accually) and left. HOWEVER.. IN Louisiana... First I couldn't act as the General Contractor.. Then you have 2 different inspecting officials, Fire Marshall, and Local building inspector (which was sub contracted out to another company) It was a living nightmare... When I started, I had to submit plans and drawings of this little 20x40' building. Then they wanted exact drawings of the electrical and plumbing for the building. Well, if any of you have installed a Television transmitter lately, A lot of it is quite dynamic depending on location of the tower to the ice bridge, feed through points, and the location of the RF system. It took a month and a half just to get the plans approved through the fire marshall... The rest is just down hill, including handicap accessable bathroom (uh..hello, you have to walk quite a bit to get to the building. I'm afraid a hover-round isn't gonna make it.And this is NO offence to our disabled repeater builders)emergency lighting (the site has a huge backup generator that kicks on after 2 seconds of power failure), emergency egress signage (there are no walls except the exterior walls, and one door) When it came to fire suspression systems, they couldn't figure out why I didn't want to use sprinklers. A non conductive, non residue hand held fire suspression system finally was agreed upon. My project in Louisiana cost double of my other one. In short... Building codes are NOT the same from state to state. Never assume that because it NEC compliant, that it will pass Louisiana's (or another state's) code.. 73 de Joe KB5VJY --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Zeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's funny you mention building construction. I work for a company that, under the original ownership in the 70's, built two identical facilities, one in California and one in Illinois. I work for the company in Illinois. The buildings were constructed to California code, and I'm sure you can imagine the problems we've had with the buildings in the winter. Chris N9XCR On Sun, 2008-07-06 at 13:12 -0500, Ron Wright wrote: Dave, This is a code requirement here in my county and think all of Florida. The code requirements for building is a county/state issue and vary. Most use the NEC code. Many have additional codes such as having wind resistance building. The way homes are constructed in the north would not be allowed in Florida mainly due to the wind. This is why we see so much concrete block construction with lots of requirements for attaching to foundation and roof securing. Just different part of the US. Same with electric code. For various reasons some additional changes are often made. Just because you have a code in your area does not mean it is in all of US. It is county mostly with some state codes. In my county there were NO building codes until the 70s. Can you believe this. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 11:43:50 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards Where is the requirement for running a separate feed to EACH OUTLET REQUIRED? Not in the US A dedicated out is required for certain special situations but not for each outlet elsewhere. There are certain other requirements such as GFCI and AFCI. But, certainly no dedicated feeder for each out. Ron Wright wrote: Gary, I've noticed in panels the safety ground and neutral go to a different buss bar. I had thought maybe because the neutral was sometimes, not now to code, smaller than the neutral. However, both got connected to the panel case. One can Ohm out neutral to safety and only see the resistance in the wiring to/from the panel. However, as you well know, should not be considered the same. In most plastic coated wireing I see today the safety wire is green coated, but some is still bare as you said. I've seen lots of this. Now in our county following NEC code the safety wire has to be same size as neutral . No more of the 14-2 w/G cable, but 14-3 one being safety ground color or bare. Also they are doing something different, a separate set of wires must be ran between panel and each outlet...no more of one wire to one outlet and then from here to another
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Bruce,
Probably should kill this topic for it has radiacally changed from orginal
posting and not really repeater related although AC power is a concern for
about any repeater builder.
I think one reason for separate wiring to each outlet is the way so many are
wired using the little spring loaded connections that require only stripping
the wire and inserting...do not use the screw terminals that most all have.
Over time the spring tention weakens producing a poor connection at one outlet
that can lead to a high resistance and heat. Having multiple outlets on one
string of wiring can amplify this situation.
I don't like the strip and insert connections and think they sould no be
allowed. Whenever I replace/repair an outlet I cut the wire and connect to the
screws.
I am sure there are other reasons for separate wiring to each outlet. The
electric code has many not so obvious reasons for what they do mainly from
experience.
73, ron, n9ee/r
From: Bruce Bagwell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/07/06 Sun PM 09:08:33 EDT
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
I figured that was A local code, not NEC. The only reason I can think of for
that requirement is the ampacity of the 12 or 14 ga wires. While we all know,
in actual use, 2 or more outlets strung along will not all have 15 amp or
higher loads in EACH outlet. However, theoretically, each outlet could have A
20 amp load plugged into it.That is probably why some pencil pusher decided
each outlet needs its own wire. (Never mind the fact the breaker would trip
regardless of what is plugged into each outlet or the number of wires leading
to said outlets, but that's another crazy thread) As for the Breaker Box, I
would assume each also has its own breaker. Trying to stuff more than one wire
into A breaker would more fun than I care to have. BruceKE5TPN
Dave,
This is a code requirement here in my county and think all of Florida.
The code requirements for building is a county/state issue and vary. Most use
the NEC code. Many have additional codes such as having wind resistance
building. The way homes are constructed in the north would not be allowed in
Florida mainly due to the wind. This is why we see so much concrete block
construction with lots of requirements for attaching to foundation and roof
securing. Just different part of the US.
Same with electric code. For various reasons some additional changes are often
made. Just because you have a code in your area does not mean it is in all of
US. It is county mostly with some state codes. In my county there were NO
building codes until the 70s. Can you believe this.
73, ron, n9ee/r
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 11:43:50 EDT
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due
toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
Where is the requirement for running a separate feed to EACH OUTLET
REQUIRED? Not in the US A dedicated out is required for certain
special situations but not for each outlet elsewhere. There are certain
other requirements such as GFCI and AFCI. But, certainly no dedicated
feeder for each out.
Ron Wright wrote:
Gary,
I've noticed in panels the safety ground and neutral go to a different buss
bar. I had thought maybe because the neutral was sometimes, not now to
code, smaller than the neutral. However, both got connected to the panel
case. One can Ohm out neutral to safety and only see the resistance in the
wiring to/from the panel. However, as you well know, should not be
considered the same.
In most plastic coated wireing I see today the safety wire is green coated,
but some is still bare as you said. I've seen lots of this.
Now in our county following NEC code the safety wire has to be same size as
neutral . No more of the 14-2 w/G cable, but 14-3 one being safety ground
color or bare. Also they are doing something different, a separate set of
wires must be ran between panel and each outlet...no more of one wire to
one outlet and then from here to another outlet, etc. Can you imagine the
extra cost and labor. Not sure what they do at the breaker panel...put in
separate breaker for each outlet. Not sure if this NEC code or something to
do with the hurricane code we have here in Florida. We do lots of
construction very different here, hi.
73, ron, n9ee/r
From: Gary Glaenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 10:19:49 EDT
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
I don't know what part of the US you live in, but around here (western IL)
the grounding conductor ('safety ground') is bare in Romex-type cable, and
may or may not be insulated in conduit, and usually one size smaller than
the 'main'conductors.
Also, the GC goes
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Ron; That requirement (if it is correct) is NOT part of the NEC It would be a local thing, and quite frankly, I feel the original poster of that info may have incorrect information It would, among other things, limit a home to (42 - circuits used for other than outlets) receptacles, there being only 42 circuit breaker spaces in a 200-amp panel Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Wright To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies I am sure there are other reasons for separate wiring to each outlet. The electric code has many not so obvious reasons for what they do mainly from experience. 73, ron, n9ee/r : 7/6/2008 5:26 AM
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
I am not buying it. Seems over the top and you would never have enough breaker panel posistions for all of the needed outlets. Randy --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ron Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce, Probably should kill this topic for it has radiacally changed from orginal posting and not really repeater related although AC power is a concern for about any repeater builder. I think one reason for separate wiring to each outlet is the way so many are wired using the little spring loaded connections that require only stripping the wire and inserting...do not use the screw terminals that most all have. Over time the spring tention weakens producing a poor connection at one outlet that can lead to a high resistance and heat. Having multiple outlets on one string of wiring can amplify this situation. I don't like the strip and insert connections and think they sould no be allowed. Whenever I replace/repair an outlet I cut the wire and connect to the screws. I am sure there are other reasons for separate wiring to each outlet. The electric code has many not so obvious reasons for what they do mainly from experience. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Bruce Bagwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/06 Sun PM 09:08:33 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies I figured that was A local code, not NEC. The only reason I can think of for that requirement is the ampacity of the 12 or 14 ga wires. While we all know, in actual use, 2 or more outlets strung along will not all have 15 amp or higher loads in EACH outlet. However, theoretically, each outlet could have A 20 amp load plugged into it.That is probably why some pencil pusher decided each outlet needs its own wire. (Never mind the fact the breaker would trip regardless of what is plugged into each outlet or the number of wires leading to said outlets, but that's another crazy thread) As for the Breaker Box, I would assume each also has its own breaker. Trying to stuff more than one wire into A breaker would more fun than I care to have.  BruceKE5TPN Dave, This is a code requirement here in my county and think all of Florida. The code requirements for building is a county/state issue and vary. Most use the NEC code. Many have additional codes such as having wind resistance building. The way homes are constructed in the north would not be allowed in Florida mainly due to the wind. This is why we see so much concrete block construction with lots of requirements for attaching to foundation and roof securing. Just different part of the US. Same with electric code. For various reasons some additional changes are often made. Just because you have a code in your area does not mean it is in all of US. It is county mostly with some state codes. In my county there were NO building codes until the 70s. Can you believe this. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 11:43:50 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards Where is the requirement for running a separate feed to EACH OUTLET REQUIRED? Not in the US A dedicated out is required for certain special situations but not for each outlet elsewhere. There are certain other requirements such as GFCI and AFCI. But, certainly no dedicated feeder for each out. Ron Wright wrote: Gary, I've noticed in panels the safety ground and neutral go to a different buss bar. I had thought maybe because the neutral was sometimes, not now to code, smaller than the neutral. However, both got connected to the panel case. One can Ohm out neutral to safety and only see the resistance in the wiring to/from the panel. However, as you well know, should not be considered the same. In most plastic coated wireing I see today the safety wire is green coated, but some is still bare as you said. I've seen lots of this. Now in our county following NEC code the safety wire has to be same size as neutral . No more of the 14-2 w/G cable, but 14-3 one being safety ground color or bare. Also they are doing something different, a separate set of wires must be ran between panel and each outlet...no more of one wire to one outlet and then from here to another outlet, etc. Can you imagine the extra cost and labor. Not sure what they do at the breaker panel...put in separate breaker for each outlet. Not sure if this NEC code or something to do with the hurricane code we have here in Florida. We do lots of construction very different here, hi. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Gary Glaenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 10:19:49 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Gary, I got this info from a local licensed electrican who does a lot of home construction. He was not happy either. My wife owning a hair salon also has seen a number of required changes in your shop. I do not thing there is a breaker for each outlet, but more than one outlet wired to multiple outlets to a single breaker. I had wondered about this since I spoke with the electrician. There are lots of building requirements for homes now in our area that are not standard in most of the US. We have to use concrete block construction, in the past of over 10 years ago one simple layed the blocks. Now in all blocks vertical channels a steel rod must be inserted and connected to the foundation and the hole filled with concrete. A few years ago only a few of these were required, but now all on the outer wall must be. Since huricane Andrew where they found many stick/2x4 built homes that got so easily blown away and the other hurricanes in recent years many building changes have been mandated. Many problems occured due to electical problems causing fires and other hazards and many changes have been made. My home built in 1988 would not even come close to code today. We now cannot use 14-2 w/g wire. It is 14-3 or larger. All breaker boxes must be assible from the outside. Had a friend who was updating his box and found it had to go outside. Definitly increased the cost. There are many many codes not national that must be followed. And for good reason. Would not expect to have all to have to build for high wind in say Chicago. They don't get too many hurricanes up theres. They do get tornados, hi. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Gary Glaenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/07 Mon AM 08:36:19 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Ron; That requirement (if it is correct) is NOT part of the NEC It would be a local thing, and quite frankly, I feel the original poster of that info may have incorrect information It would, among other things, limit a home to (42 - circuits used for other than outlets) receptacles, there being only 42 circuit breaker spaces in a 200-amp panel Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Wright To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies I am sure there are other reasons for separate wiring to each outlet. The electric code has many not so obvious reasons for what they do mainly from experience. 73, ron, n9ee/r : 7/6/2008 5:26 AM Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
Where is the requirement for running a separate feed to EACH OUTLET
REQUIRED? Not in the US A dedicated out is required for certain
special situations but not for each outlet elsewhere. There are certain
other requirements such as GFCI and AFCI. But, certainly no dedicated
feeder for each out.
Ron Wright wrote:
Gary,
I've noticed in panels the safety ground and neutral go to a different buss
bar. I had thought maybe because the neutral was sometimes, not now to code,
smaller than the neutral. However, both got connected to the panel case.
One can Ohm out neutral to safety and only see the resistance in the wiring
to/from the panel. However, as you well know, should not be considered the
same.
In most plastic coated wireing I see today the safety wire is green coated,
but some is still bare as you said. I've seen lots of this.
Now in our county following NEC code the safety wire has to be same size as
neutral . No more of the 14-2 w/G cable, but 14-3 one being safety ground
color or bare. Also they are doing something different, a separate set of
wires must be ran between panel and each outlet...no more of one wire to one
outlet and then from here to another outlet, etc. Can you imagine the extra
cost and labor. Not sure what they do at the breaker panel...put in separate
breaker for each outlet. Not sure if this NEC code or something to do with
the hurricane code we have here in Florida. We do lots of construction very
different here, hi.
73, ron, n9ee/r
From: Gary Glaenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 10:19:49 EDT
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
I don't know what part of the US you live in, but around here (western IL)
the grounding conductor ('safety ground') is bare in Romex-type cable, and
may or may not be insulated in conduit, and usually one size smaller than
the 'main' conductors.
Also, the GC goes to one bus-bar, the neutral to another, the GC bus-bar is
bonded ot the neutral at the SERVICE panel (incoming power, the one with the
'Main' braker that shuts off all power), but is kept separate in all
sub-panels, and from the sub-panel(s) there must be a separate GC (coded
green) run back to the GC bus-bar in the service panel.
Ron Wright, N9EE
727-376-6575
MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS
Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL
No tone, all are welcome.
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
It's funny you mention building construction. I work for a company that,
under the original ownership in the 70's, built two identical
facilities, one in California and one in Illinois. I work for the
company in Illinois. The buildings were constructed to California code,
and I'm sure you can imagine the problems we've had with the buildings
in the winter.
Chris
N9XCR
On Sun, 2008-07-06 at 13:12 -0500, Ron Wright wrote:
Dave,
This is a code requirement here in my county and think all of Florida.
The code requirements for building is a county/state issue and vary.
Most use the NEC code. Many have additional codes such as having wind
resistance building. The way homes are constructed in the north would
not be allowed in Florida mainly due to the wind. This is why we see
so much concrete block construction with lots of requirements for
attaching to foundation and roof securing. Just different part of the
US.
Same with electric code. For various reasons some additional changes
are often made. Just because you have a code in your area does not
mean it is in all of US. It is county mostly with some state codes. In
my county there were NO building codes until the 70s. Can you believe
this.
73, ron, n9ee/r
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 11:43:50 EDT
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
Where is the requirement for running a separate feed to EACH OUTLET
REQUIRED? Not in the US A dedicated out is required for certain
special situations but not for each outlet elsewhere. There are
certain
other requirements such as GFCI and AFCI. But, certainly no
dedicated
feeder for each out.
Ron Wright wrote:
Gary,
I've noticed in panels the safety ground and neutral go to a
different buss bar. I had thought maybe because the neutral was
sometimes, not now to code, smaller than the neutral. However, both
got connected to the panel case. One can Ohm out neutral to safety and
only see the resistance in the wiring to/from the panel. However, as
you well know, should not be considered the same.
In most plastic coated wireing I see today the safety wire is green
coated, but some is still bare as you said. I've seen lots of this.
Now in our county following NEC code the safety wire has to be same
size as neutral . No more of the 14-2 w/G cable, but 14-3 one being
safety ground color or bare. Also they are doing something different,
a separate set of wires must be ran between panel and each outlet...no
more of one wire to one outlet and then from here to another outlet,
etc. Can you imagine the extra cost and labor. Not sure what they do
at the breaker panel...put in separate breaker for each outlet. Not
sure if this NEC code or something to do with the hurricane code we
have here in Florida. We do lots of construction very different here,
hi.
73, ron, n9ee/r
From: Gary Glaenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 10:19:49 EDT
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power
Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
I don't know what part of the US you live in, but around here
(western IL)
the grounding conductor ('safety ground') is bare in Romex-type
cable, and
may or may not be insulated in conduit, and usually one size
smaller than
the 'main' conductors.
Also, the GC goes to one bus-bar, the neutral to another, the GC
bus-bar is
bonded ot the neutral at the SERVICE panel (incoming power, the
one with the
'Main' braker that shuts off all power), but is kept separate in
all
sub-panels, and from the sub-panel(s) there must be a separate GC
(coded
green) run back to the GC bus-bar in the service panel.
Ron Wright, N9EE
727-376-6575
MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS
Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL
No tone, all are welcome.
Yahoo! Groups Links
Ron Wright, N9EE
727-376-6575
MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS
Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL
No tone, all are welcome.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
I figured that was A local code, not NEC. The only reason I can think of for
that requirement is the ampacity of the 12 or 14 ga wires. While we all know,
in actual use, 2 or more outlets strung along will not all have 15 amp or
higher loads in EACH outlet. However, theoretically, each outlet could have A
20 amp load plugged into it.That is probably why some pencil pusher decided
each outlet needs its own wire. (Never mind the fact the breaker would trip
regardless of what is plugged into each outlet or the number of wires leading
to said outlets, but that's another crazy thread) As for the Breaker Box, I
would assume each also has its own breaker. Trying to stuff more than one wire
into A breaker would more fun than I care to have.
Bruce
KE5TPN
Dave,
This is a code requirement here in my county and think all of Florida.
The code requirements for building is a county/state issue and vary. Most use
the NEC code. Many have additional codes such as having wind resistance
building. The way homes are constructed in the north would not be allowed in
Florida mainly due to the wind. This is why we see so much concrete block
construction with lots of requirements for attaching to foundation and roof
securing. Just different part of the US.
Same with electric code. For various reasons some additional changes are often
made. Just because you have a code in your area does not mean it is in all of
US. It is county mostly with some state codes. In my county there were NO
building codes until the 70s. Can you believe this.
73, ron, n9ee/r
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 11:43:50 EDT
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due
toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
Where is the requirement for running a separate feed to EACH OUTLET
REQUIRED? Not in the US A dedicated out is required for certain
special situations but not for each outlet elsewhere. There are certain
other requirements such as GFCI and AFCI. But, certainly no dedicated
feeder for each out.
Ron Wright wrote:
Gary,
I've noticed in panels the safety ground and neutral go to a different buss
bar. I had thought maybe because the neutral was sometimes, not now to code,
smaller than the neutral. However, both got connected to the panel case. One
can Ohm out neutral to safety and only see the resistance in the wiring
to/from the panel. However, as you well know, should not be considered the
same.
In most plastic coated wireing I see today the safety wire is green coated,
but some is still bare as you said. I've seen lots of this.
Now in our county following NEC code the safety wire has to be same size as
neutral . No more of the 14-2 w/G cable, but 14-3 one being safety ground
color or bare. Also they are doing something different, a separate set of
wires must be ran between panel and each outlet...no more of one wire to one
outlet and then from here to another outlet, etc. Can you imagine the extra
cost and labor. Not sure what they do at the breaker panel...put in separate
breaker for each outlet. Not sure if this NEC code or something to do with
the hurricane code we have here in Florida. We do lots of construction very
different here, hi.
73, ron, n9ee/r
From: Gary Glaenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2008/07/06 Sun AM 10:19:49 EDT
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies
Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
I don't know what part of the US you live in, but around here (western IL)
the grounding conductor ('safety ground') is bare in Romex-type cable, and
may or may not be insulated in conduit, and usually one size smaller than
the 'main' conductors.
Also, the GC goes to one bus-bar, the neutral to another, the GC bus-bar is
bonded ot the neutral at the SERVICE panel (incoming power, the one with the
'Main' braker that shuts off all power), but is kept separate in all
sub-panels, and from the sub-panel(s) there must be a separate GC (coded
green) run back to the GC bus-bar in the service panel.
Ron Wright, N9EE
727-376-6575
MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS
Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL
No tone, all are welcome.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
Last month one the workers and I were inside a local shopping centre planning additions to the fibre and telephone when we found some cable ( power) just thrown in the dust above a vacant shop , live single phase 240 15 amp cable resting inside a steel roof truss covered with dust , happily I had my voltage pen with me so no harm but when the matter was broached with the manager he attempted to ignore it with a dismissive... He wont do that again :) The alarming thing was it was neutral and active reversed and had nothing to protect the naked copper To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 04:47:25 + Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards Nevertheless, I see inadequate and sometimes dangerous electrical installations almost on a daily basis... Another war story that goes with your comment. Shortly after I retired, I took a job with a company that was located in a former International Harvester building doing general maintenance type work. Part of that job included running over the rough concrete floors with a cleaning machine. In one unused part of the building, I saw a length of several fairly heavy wires lying on the floor, near a puddle of water (the roof leaked in that section of the building). I thought I'd just coil them up and hang them on a spike on the wall near where they originated. I picked up the wires and started to coil them up and as I straightened them out I hit the end of the wires and they soundly hit me back with one of the most painful shocks I can recall receiving. It turned out that those lines were part of a 440 volt, three phase line that was never turned off when the equipment was moved out of the area. Once again, I was very lucky in that the only injury was one gigantic scare over what might have happened. Another lesson, never ASS-ume that a line is dead until you confirm it. Had my other hand been grounded, I probably wouldn't be telling this story now. Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don, Your dad is a man I can relate to and admire! I am an ICBO/IAEI Certified Electrical Inspector, although that has nothing whatsoever to do with my employment in the aerospace business. Nevertheless, I see inadequate and sometimes dangerous electrical installations almost on a daily basis My next-door neighbor once called me over to check some wiring he added to his garage for some power tools. He had run some 18/2 SPT, commonly called zip cord, from a light socket above his washing machine over to a receptacle box he added for a drill press. He said that the drill press stalled easily, and he often smelled a burning odor. Duh! Not only was the zip cord extension a violation of several articles of the National Electrical Code, but it was undersized for the load and there was no grounding conductor! He was absolutely clueless about safe and legal electrical wiring. At my urging, he hired a competent electrician to install a new and dedicated branch circuit for his workbench. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Kupferschmidt Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 5:47 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards Can you imagine this happening in a residential / commercial bathroom where the GFI is compromised? I'd relate that to old sparky in one of the state's pens, (say in Florida) where the lethal death penality still exists. My Dad was an electrician and an electrical inspector for a city in Wisconsin. I still remember to this day when he would be out inspecting jobs, me along with him, and get really MAD when he saw something like you have just described. I'll never forget the day when he called up an electrical contractor and told him if he didn't fix the problem within 24 hours, he would yank his license and refer him to the police department for endangering the public's welfare. He was not a liked inspector, but was trusted within the electrical community. And he slept very well at night. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:wb6fly%40verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 11:55 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards The primary danger is electrocution, most likely caused by exchanging the neutral and ground leads inside the case. Although the power supply will operate just fine when wired this way
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
There are many makes of voltage sensing sticks one can get basically anywhere. Many times I have seen outlets Converted to 3 wire from two, only to find all they did was ground from the neutral wire. That means I get all kinds of RFI and if the Ground ever dropped, it would be HOT just from the return from the light bulb or whatever. BTW, those cheap Testers will NOT detect HOT/Ground/Neutral Reverse! If in doubt, run a wire from a known ground to your Meter and find what wires are Hot I remember A house I rented, every time I touched the light switch/outlet in the garage I got tickled Glad I knew what was going on or else I might have made full contact, and I would not be typing this right now! Swapped the HOT/Neutral/Ground and all was OK! Always remember, just because the outlet is Grounded does not mean it is really Grounded Verify! Stay safe out there! Bruce Bagwell KE5TPN If You Can Read This, Thank A Teacher. If You Are Reading This in ENGLISH, Thank A Veteran or Current Soldier! Support Our Troops! For Without Them, We Have No Support at All! The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Bob NO6B My brother lived in a house with two wire plugs he changed to three wire plugs. He just jumpered the neutral and ground together on the plugs. It fooled the inspector with the little plug in light up gizmo. I highly recomend one of these to anyone working around electricity. http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+VoltAlert.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnit edStates Best $20.00 I spent. tom n8ie
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
Nate wrote: From the link you sent: This product is discontinued. Just to the right of the words, This product is discontinued is a line that says, Fluke suggests... and lists the 1ACII with a link to it. Appears to be just a newer version of the same thing; I didn't read what's different about it. Anyway, they do still have one available. Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 4, 2008, at 5:30 PM, Thomas Oliver wrote: I highly recomend one of these to anyone working around electricity. http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+VoltAlert.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnit edStates Best $20.00 I spent. tom n8ie From the link you sent: This product is discontinued. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
Yes there is a new version available from Fluke. I have one as well as two of the older versions. One is in my shirt pocket at all times ! If you ever tried to check a dead string of Christmas tree lights, then this thing is what you need. It will show you where the bad bulb is located by not lighting up past the bulb. If you check an outlet and see power on both the hot and the neutral, then the ground is missing. They are very handy in checking a power panel to find the open breaker, or a blown glass fuse. These are one of the best and simplest AC testers ever built. John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 3:16 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards Nate wrote: From the link you sent: This product is discontinued. Just to the right of the words, This product is discontinued is a line that says, Fluke suggests... and lists the 1ACII with a link to it. Appears to be just a newer version of the same thing; I didn't read what's different about it. Anyway, they do still have one available. Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 4, 2008, at 5:30 PM, Thomas Oliver wrote: I highly recomend one of these to anyone working around electricity. http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+VoltAlert.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnit edStates Best $20.00 I spent. tom n8ie From the link you sent: This product is discontinued. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
Try this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EJ332O Richard http://www.n7tgb.net/ www.n7tgb.net _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 10:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards On Jul 4, 2008, at 5:30 PM, Thomas Oliver wrote: I highly recomend one of these to anyone working around electricity. http://us.fluke. http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+VoltAlert.htm?catalog_name=Fl ukeUnit com/usen/products/Fluke+VoltAlert.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnit edStates Best $20.00 I spent. tom n8ie From the link you sent: This product is discontinued. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:nate%40natetech.com com
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Uh...seems like it might be wiser to just rewire the receptacle? Once you've determined the device is miswired, I would suggest correcting it.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
At 7/5/2008 10:09, you wrote: The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Uh...seems like it might be wiser to just rewire the receptacle? Once you've determined the device is miswired, I would suggest correcting it. Has no one seen my reply to this like messages? It will be fixed, but by a professional. With my luck, the circuit breaker is probably wired to the neutral line as well so all I'd do is end up killing myself trying to fix a simple problem. When I get the electrician out here, I'll have him check all that. In the meantime, Christmas lights are safe to use on that outlet. Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
I don't think people read the entire thread before firing off a reply. I read your initial message, and was going to reply, but finished reading the rest and changed my mind. Richard http://www.n7tgb.net/ www.n7tgb.net _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:06 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards At 7/5/2008 10:09, you wrote: The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Uh...seems like it might be wiser to just rewire the receptacle? Once you've determined the device is miswired, I would suggest correcting it. Has no one seen my reply to this like messages? It will be fixed, but by a professional. With my luck, the circuit breaker is probably wired to the neutral line as well so all I'd do is end up killing myself trying to fix a simple problem. When I get the electrician out here, I'll have him check all that. In the meantime, Christmas lights are safe to use on that outlet. Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
Bob, Maybe they are, but probably not. Christmas light sets must have a polarized plug, in order to be NRTL listed. The wider plug blade is supposed to go into the wider slot of the receptacle which, in a properly-wired outlet, will be the neutral (grounded) side of the power circuit. This arrangement ensures that the screw base of each lamp in the string is close to ground potential, minimizing the shock hazard if a fingertip touches the metal when a lamp is replaced. In your case, with reversed polarity on the power outlet, the lamp bases will be hot (electrically) and thus pose a dangerous shock hazard. It would be a good idea to unplug the lights before changing out a lamp. Of course, if the light strings are not NRTL-listed and/or are polarized incorrectly, the receptacle polarity becomes irrelevant. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:06 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards At 7/5/2008 10:09, you wrote: snip In the meantime, Christmas lights are safe to use on that outlet. Bob NO6B
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies  Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
I wonder how this happened. I am sure the supply is UL listed (no such thing as US approved) so looks like something got over looked or a change occured at RS manufacturing. The thing was made in CHINA!!! Need I say more? They just got through killing hundreds of our pets, so far this is minor! I don't buy ANYTHING made in China since that happened. I recently walked out of the local dollar store because the product I had intended to buy was made in China; that is now a way of life for me. They could care less about us once they get our money, much less our safety! Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ron Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe RS has to take the supply back and rewire or fix it. It sounds like an easy thing to do...just reverse the neutral and safety ground as the plug enters the supply. If I had a number of these I would take back to RS and have them do it. They should put a label on it stating the mod had been done. I wonder if there are any charges such as return shipping charges. Although one can say if your outlet is wire correctly there would not be a problem. This is true, but with the millions of outlets in the world and maybe one in your own home you have not yet tried with the RS supply I would definitly want it wired correctly. I wonder how this happened. I am sure the supply is UL listed (no such thing as US approved) so looks like something got over looked or a change occured at RS manufacturing. In the US the safety ground and neutral both go back to the same place in the power panel (fuse box). Most of the time both are insulated with different color wires and often the neutral is a size larger wire (not allowed with new code), but with the RS supply this wire size would not be a problem. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Gary Glaenzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/07/05 Sat AM 08:21:43 EDT To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards I must have a half-dozen of these http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/ide05-08.html  true, they will NOT show ground/neutral reversal, but if your panel is wired correctly, that's a non-issue   - Original Message - From: Thomas OliverTo: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comSent: Friday, July 04, 2008 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Bob NO6B My brother lived in a house with two wire plugs he changed to three wire plugs. He just jumpered the neutral and ground together on the plugs. It fooled the inspector with the little plug in light up gizmo. I highly recomend one of these to anyone working around electricity. http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+VoltAlert.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnit edStates Best $20.00 I spent. tom n8ie No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.135 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 7:19 PM Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
OT (sorta)...there is the possibility that the unit may be plugged into an improperly-wired receptacle- which happens often when do-it-yourselfers change out a receptacle. Just a heads-up on the assumption that a professionally wired home is safe. When I bought the house I'm living in now, one of the selling points was that the old knob-and-tube wiring had been replaced with new Romax and a new 125 amp breaker panel (by a professional electrician). All of the outlets were the 3-wire type so I ASS-UMED that all was well and good. The house even passed a buyer's inspection as part of the sale. Well, things were not all as they appeared. After getting smacked a couple of times on the bench, when I knew I shouldn't have, I started looking. Although all of the outlets in the house were the 3-wire type, only the ones in the kitchen (not even the bathroom) had the third wire ground actually connected. All of the others were wired with 2-wire Romax and NO ground. Now, if that isn't a booby trap, I don't know what is. So, unlike me, don't assume anything. Buy a cheap line tester and check every outlet you have in the house. It may save your skin! Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The primary danger is electrocution, most likely caused by exchanging the neutral and ground leads inside the case. Although the power supply will operate just fine when wired this way, there is the possibility that the unit may be plugged into an improperly-wired receptacle- which happens often when do-it-yourselfers change out a receptacle. If the receptacle ground connection is poor or does not exist, the power supply enclosure can be energized at 120 VAC and pose a severe shock hazard. Simple outlet testers normally will not detect such wiring errors, leading to false confidence. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mung Bungholio Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:49 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards I have one so we will see what they do when I bring it back in. It hasn't burst into flames yet. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Thompson Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 12:48 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Repeater-Builder] RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission Office of Information and Public Affairs Washington, DC 20207 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 2, 2008 Release #08-319 Firm's Recall Hotline: (800) 843-7422 CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772 CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908 RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following consumer product. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed. Name of Product: 13.8V DC Power Supplies Units: About 160,000 Importer: RadioShack Corp., of Fort Worth, Texas Hazard: The recalled power supplies are wired incorrectly, posing electrocution and fire hazards. Incidents/Injuries: None reported. Description: The recall involves RadioShack 13.8V DC Power Supplies, catalog numbers 22-507 and 22-508 with date codes from 08A04 through 01A08. Date code format is MMAYY where MM is the month and YY is the year. The catalog number and date code are located on the back of the power supply. Power Supplies with a green dot on the product and the product's packaging have already been repaired and are not included in the recall. Sold at: RadioShack stores nationwide from October 2004 through January 2008 for between $50 and $85. Manufactured in: China Remedy: Consumers should unplug the recalled power supply immediately and take it to any RadioShack store for a free repair. Registered owners of the recalled power supplies will be mailed a notice. Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact RadioShack at 800-843-7422 anytime, or visit the firm's website at: http://www.radioshack.com/recall http://www.radioshack.com/recall To see this recall on CPSC's web site, including pictures of the recalled products, please go to: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtm108/08319.html http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtm108/08319.html
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
At 7/4/2008 15:21, you wrote: OT (sorta)...there is the possibility that the unit may be plugged into an improperly-wired receptacle- which happens often when do-it-yourselfers change out a receptacle. Just a heads-up on the assumption that a professionally wired home is safe. When I bought the house I'm living in now, one of the selling points was that the old knob-and-tube wiring had been replaced with new Romax and a new 125 amp breaker panel (by a professional electrician). All of the outlets were the 3-wire type so I ASS-UMED that all was well and good. The house even passed a buyer's inspection as part of the sale. Well, things were not all as they appeared. After getting The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
Wouldn't it be a lot better and safer to just shut off the power, pull it out of the box, and reverse the white and black wires, and have it right ? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards At 7/4/2008 15:21, you wrote: OT (sorta)...there is the possibility that the unit may be plugged into an improperly-wired receptacle- which happens often when do-it-yourselfers change out a receptacle. Just a heads-up on the assumption that a professionally wired home is safe. When I bought the house I'm living in now, one of the selling points was that the old knob-and-tube wiring had been replaced with new Romax and a new 125 amp breaker panel (by a professional electrician). All of the outlets were the 3-wire type so I ASS-UMED that all was well and good. The house even passed a buyer's inspection as part of the sale. Well, things were not all as they appeared. After getting The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Bob NO6B No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.135 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 7:19 PM
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
My mother-in-law's condo also had a problem. My electrician neighbor came over to do some wiring work and found out that the outside outlets were not connected to the GFI. We figured that the original contractors working the job were tired of resetting the GFI all day due to their faulty tools, so they bypassed the GFI. Then they forgot to rewire it back when they were done. These guys were prime candidates for the Darwin Award. 73, Joe, K1ike Tom wrote: OT (sorta)...there is the possibility that the unit may be plugged into an improperly-wired receptacle- which happens often when do-it-yourselfers change out a receptacle. Just a heads-up on the assumption that a professionally wired home is safe.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
why don't you just fix it and be safe? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards At 7/4/2008 15:21, you wrote: OT (sorta)...there is the possibility that the unit may be plugged into an improperly-wired receptacle- which happens often when do-it-yourselfers change out a receptacle. Just a heads-up on the assumption that a professionally wired home is safe. When I bought the house I'm living in now, one of the selling points was that the old knob-and-tube wiring had been replaced with new Romax and a new 125 amp breaker panel (by a professional electrician). All of the outlets were the 3-wire type so I ASS-UMED that all was well and good. The house even passed a buyer's inspection as part of the sale. Well, things were not all as they appeared. After getting The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
At 15:52 7/4/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Bob NO6B Bob, I am just curious. Why not just fix it??? -- Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html -
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
At 15:52 7/4/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Bob NO6B Bob, I am just curious. Why not just fix it??? -- Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html -
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
The inspector I used checked every outlet in the house, found one in the garage that had line neutral reversed. It is tagged as such, is now only used with fully insulated loads such as Christmas lights. Bob NO6B My brother lived in a house with two wire plugs he changed to three wire plugs. He just jumpered the neutral and ground together on the plugs. It fooled the inspector with the little plug in light up gizmo. I highly recomend one of these to anyone working around electricity. http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+VoltAlert.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnit edStates Best $20.00 I spent. tom n8ie
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
At 7/4/2008 16:02, you wrote: Wouldn't it be a lot better and safer to just shut off the power, pull it out of the box, and reverse the white and black wires, and have it right ? High voltage I don't get along, so I try to avoid messing with house wiring unless absolutely necessary. Besides, I can't stand working with solid wire. I need to have some other electrical work done in that area. When I do, I'll have the electrician take care of it as part of the job. Bob NO6B
[Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards
Nevertheless, I see inadequate and sometimes dangerous electrical installations almost on a daily basis... Another war story that goes with your comment. Shortly after I retired, I took a job with a company that was located in a former International Harvester building doing general maintenance type work. Part of that job included running over the rough concrete floors with a cleaning machine. In one unused part of the building, I saw a length of several fairly heavy wires lying on the floor, near a puddle of water (the roof leaked in that section of the building). I thought I'd just coil them up and hang them on a spike on the wall near where they originated. I picked up the wires and started to coil them up and as I straightened them out I hit the end of the wires and they soundly hit me back with one of the most painful shocks I can recall receiving. It turned out that those lines were part of a 440 volt, three phase line that was never turned off when the equipment was moved out of the area. Once again, I was very lucky in that the only injury was one gigantic scare over what might have happened. Another lesson, never ASS-ume that a line is dead until you confirm it. Had my other hand been grounded, I probably wouldn't be telling this story now. Tom --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don, Your dad is a man I can relate to and admire! I am an ICBO/IAEI Certified Electrical Inspector, although that has nothing whatsoever to do with my employment in the aerospace business. Nevertheless, I see inadequate and sometimes dangerous electrical installations almost on a daily basis My next-door neighbor once called me over to check some wiring he added to his garage for some power tools. He had run some 18/2 SPT, commonly called zip cord, from a light socket above his washing machine over to a receptacle box he added for a drill press. He said that the drill press stalled easily, and he often smelled a burning odor. Duh! Not only was the zip cord extension a violation of several articles of the National Electrical Code, but it was undersized for the load and there was no grounding conductor! He was absolutely clueless about safe and legal electrical wiring. At my urging, he hired a competent electrician to install a new and dedicated branch circuit for his workbench. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Kupferschmidt Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 5:47 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards Can you imagine this happening in a residential / commercial bathroom where the GFI is compromised? I'd relate that to old sparky in one of the state's pens, (say in Florida) where the lethal death penality still exists. My Dad was an electrician and an electrical inspector for a city in Wisconsin. I still remember to this day when he would be out inspecting jobs, me along with him, and get really MAD when he saw something like you have just described. I'll never forget the day when he called up an electrical contractor and told him if he didn't fix the problem within 24 hours, he would yank his license and refer him to the police department for endangering the public's welfare. He was not a liked inspector, but was trusted within the electrical community. And he slept very well at night. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:wb6fly%40verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 11:55 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire Hazards The primary danger is electrocution, most likely caused by exchanging the neutral and ground leads inside the case. Although the power supply will operate just fine when wired this way, there is the possibility that the unit may be plugged into an improperly-wired receptacle- which happens often when do-it-yourselfers change out a receptacle. If the receptacle ground connection is poor or does not exist, the power supply enclosure can be energized at 120 VAC and pose a severe shock hazard. Simple outlet testers normally will not detect such wiring errors, leading to false confidence. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mung Bungholio Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:49 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due to Electrocution and Fire
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: RadioShack Recalls Power Supplies Due toElectrocution and Fire Hazards
On Jul 4, 2008, at 5:30 PM, Thomas Oliver wrote: I highly recomend one of these to anyone working around electricity. http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+VoltAlert.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnit edStates Best $20.00 I spent. tom n8ie From the link you sent: This product is discontinued. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X [EMAIL PROTECTED]
