[RDD] rdimport - Suggested ingestion parameters?

[Richard G Elen]

Hi...

I am soon to ingest our music library using rdimport.

The source library structure is basically 
~/Artistname/Albumname/trackfiles and they may be multiple album 
subfolders in the Artistname folder.


We've spent quite a lot of time and effort getting our metadata in good 
order so hopefully all will go well.


looking at the man pages, rdimport has a great number of options, but, 
being new to this, I wonder if anyone can suggest what is a good 
general-purpose set of configuration options that will be most likely to 
give the best results. Fortunately or unfortunately we have an extremely 
eclectic library ranging from mediaeval to rock, so I am expecting to 
have to do some fine tuning.


But some basic suggestions would be gratefully received, and thanks in 
advance.


--Richard E

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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[Fred Gleason]

On Nov 5, 2018, at 17:44, John Edstrom  wrote:

> Interesting.  According to the doc the BWF V2 standard accomodates EBU
> R128 loudness metadata, which someone was asking about the other day. 
> Am I correct in interpreting that to mean than its OK to include
> loudness metadata in the audio file, and it will be stripped and stored
> in the DB, but the playout algorithm, so far, ignores it?

Haven’t really wrapped my head around R128 yet. I plan to do so once v3.x is 
production-ready.

Cheers!


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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[Richard Elen]

Hi, Robert...

It's heading that way. I indeed picked up a used machine for the current 
experiments and it should be fine for the application. Thankfully 
storage is cheap too: I have a 2TB drive on its way. I'll let rdimport 
ingest from the existing NTFS copy of the library and save its version 
on the new drive.


--Richard E


On 05-Nov-18 21:59, Robert Jeffares wrote:


I would heartily recommend you build  a Rivendell system on a 
dedicated computer.


You can source 2nd hand 64 bit machines relatively inexpensively and 
they work quite well.


You may need to install a bigger drive for /var/snd depending on the 
music library size, but you can run with almost anything to see how it 
works.




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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[Richard Elen]

Hi, Fred...

Many thanks for these helpful comments, much appreciated.

--Richard E


On 05-Nov-18 21:39, Fred Gleason wrote:
...the audio store contains *only* audio; all other metadata goes in 
the SQL database.


...The European Broadcasting Union has codified the standard audio 
storage format for use in professional broadcast storage and play-out 
systems. Rivendell (as well as many proprietary systems) adhere to 
these standards


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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[John Edstrom]

On Mon, 2018-11-05 at 16:39 -0500, Fred Gleason wrote:
> On Nov 5, 2018, at 16:17, Richard Elen  wrote:
> ...
> 
> It's a matter of standards-compliance. The European Broadcasting
> Union has codified the standard audio storage format for use in
> professional broadcast storage and play-out systems. Rivendell (as
> well as many proprietary systems) adhere to these standards:
> 
>   https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3285.pdf

Interesting.  According to the doc the BWF V2 standard accomodates EBU
R128 loudness metadata, which someone was asking about the other day. 
Am I correct in interpreting that to mean than its OK to include
loudness metadata in the audio file, and it will be stripped and stored
in the DB, but the playout algorithm, so far, ignores it?

   JE


-- 
John Edstrom 
Firebare

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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[Robert Jeffares]

Hi Richard,

I would heartily recommend you build  a Rivendell system on a dedicated 
computer.


You can source 2nd hand 64 bit machines relatively inexpensively and 
they work quite well.


You may need to install a bigger drive for /var/snd depending on the 
music library size, but you can run with almost anything to see how it 
works.


Yes all audio is stored as wav for good reason.

Bit of effort but I can assure you it's worth it.

regard

Robert Jeffares



On 06/11/18 05:20, Richard G Elen wrote:


Hi...

I am just starting with Rivendell, so please pardon my total lack of 
knowledge at this point which may result in my asking meaningless or 
impossible questions.


I had set up a CentOS 7.5 system in advance and then followed the 
Rivendell CentOS installation document to install Rivendell (the only 
difference from the document's recommendation being that I did not 
define a separate partition for /var, as I followed the standard 
CentOS install recommendation).


As I want to get to know Rivendell for a while and continue to use an 
existing Windows playout system in the meantime, the machine 
dual-boots into CentOS or Win 10. A 1.5 TB partition on the drive is 
formatted as NTFS and contains the music library, which is accessed by 
the Windows playout system currently. The library is mounted with 
ntfs-3g on boot into CentOS so it can be accessed by Rivendell.


It appears that Rivendell requires to make a complete copy of the 
music library on ingestion with rdimport. This is inconvenient. There 
is insufficient space on the current drive to allow Rivendell to store 
a copy of the music library. Now of course I could attach an external 
drive, copy the library on to it and then let Rivendell ingest it from 
there and copy it back to where it is now. In which case, two 
questions arise:


 1. If I follow the copy-back-and-forth course outlined above, will
the Rivendell-ingested copy of the music library still be able to
be used by the Windows playout system or would I need to have /two
/active copies of the music library, one for Windows playout and
the other for Rivendell?
 2. Does Rivendell require to make a copy of the library at all, or
can it simply ingest the metadata and populate the database
without copying the actual audio files?

Any observations or advice would be greatly appreciated, and thanks in 
advance.


--Richard Elen
radioriel.org



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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[Fred Gleason]

On Nov 5, 2018, at 16:17, Richard Elen  wrote:

> While the Windows system could no doubt play the WAV files produced by 
> Rivendell, they may not contain any metadata, so it wouldn't know what they 
> were.

They don’t. This was one of the fundamental design principles laid down at the 
very inception of the project: the audio store contains *only* audio; all other 
metadata goes in the SQL database.


> I wouldn't dream of using a lossy compression scheme on the library. I just 
> find it interesting that RD would turn an mp3 file into a WAV file (or a FLAC 
> file into a WAV file for that matter), neither of which confer any sonic 
> benefit.

It's a matter of standards-compliance. The European Broadcasting Union has 
codified the standard audio storage format for use in professional broadcast 
storage and play-out systems. Rivendell (as well as many proprietary systems) 
adhere to these standards:

https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3285.pdf

So, while it’s common short-hand in many shops to use ‘WAV’ to mean 
‘uncompressed PCM’, WAV is actually just a container format (specifically, a 
Microsoft RIFF format, similar to AVI and similar formats) that can enclose 
many different audio encodings.

Cheers!


|--|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. |  Chief Developer |
|   |  Paravel Systems |
|--|
|  There is nothing unexplainable, only that which has yet to  |
|  be explained."  |
| --Dr. Who|
|--|

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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[Richard Elen]

Observations based on your comments - for which thank you again!

On 05-Nov-18 20:58, drew Roberts wrote:

What does the windows system do with the audio that it cannot work 
with the Riv files?


The Windows playout system reads the metadata from the audio files and 
stores it in a database that points at the original files. While you can 
have it make a copy of the library on ingestion it doesn't have to. So 
the original files are played out, from their original formats.


While the Windows system could no doubt /play/ the WAV files produced by 
Rivendell, they may not contain any metadata, so it wouldn't know what 
they were. I know that WAV /can /contain metadata but very few 
applications do that. Does RD keep metadata in the WAV file or simply 
store it in the database? If you are going to all that trouble the 
latter would seem to be the way to go.



...If you use that, you use the compressed format you will:

1. lose quality wrt your flac files.
2. incur re-encoding losses from your mp3s.


I wouldn't dream of using a lossy compression scheme on the library. I 
just find it interesting that RD would turn an mp3 file into a WAV file 
(or a FLAC file into a WAV file for that matter), neither of which 
confer any sonic benefit. Presumably what this /does /do is to ensure 
that the system only ever has to play out WAV files and that files 
ingested will never be stored at /lower/ quality than they come in.


If you have room in the box, it is likely more than worth it to put in 
a drive for /var/snd..


It's not difficult OS-wise to add another drive and move /var on to it, 
so that's what I'm looking at. I can pull the DVD drive (I have an 
external USB one somewhere) and put a drive in there instead.


Many thanks once again,
--Richard E

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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[drew Roberts]

Richard,

glad to know the info was useful. A few clarifications...

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:01 PM Richard Elen  wrote:

> Hi, Drew...
>
> This is exceptionally useful information, and thank you.
>
> OK, so the current setup won't work. Not only that, my entire
> installation won't work - if the library needs to be stored in /var/snd/
> then it DOES require its own partition - indeed, its own drive.
>

Technically now always but in fact, usually a very good idea.

>
> In addition, if I want to run both a Windows system and Rivendell on the
> same machine as dual-boot I will indeed need two libraries, one in
> native format (mainly FLAC plus some mp3s) under NTFS and one generated
> by Rivendell under xfs, probably on its own drive mounted at /var.
>

What does the windows system do with the audio that it cannot work with the
Riv files?

>
> You note that Rivendell will convert all files to .WAV (even if they are
> lossy compressed, interestingly) so I need to allow a seriously larger
> space for the library.
>
> PCM16, PCM24, MPEG Layer 2

are options you set in rdadmin for the rdlibrary setting of a host.

IIRC, even the MPEG Layer 2 files show up with a .wav extension.

If you use that, you use the compressed format you will:

1. lose quality wrt your flac files.
2. incur re-encoding losses from your mp3s.


> I'm very glad I learned this now when I'll only have wasted a day or so
> building the system, and not some way further down the line, so I am
> very grateful for the comments.
>

If you have room it the box, it is likely more than worth it to put in a
drive for /var/snd...

>
> Many thanks!
> --Richard E
>
> all the best,

drew
-- 
Enjoy great *Bahamian Music* at:
Bahamian Or Nuttin - http://www.bahamianornuttin.com

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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[Richard Elen]

Hi, Drew...

This is exceptionally useful information, and thank you.

OK, so the current setup won't work. Not only that, my entire 
installation won't work - if the library needs to be stored in /var/snd/ 
then it DOES require its own partition - indeed, its own drive.


In addition, if I want to run both a Windows system and Rivendell on the 
same machine as dual-boot I will indeed need two libraries, one in 
native format (mainly FLAC plus some mp3s) under NTFS and one generated 
by Rivendell under xfs, probably on its own drive mounted at /var.


You note that Rivendell will convert all files to .WAV (even if they are 
lossy compressed, interestingly) so I need to allow a seriously larger 
space for the library.


I'm very glad I learned this now when I'll only have wasted a day or so 
building the system, and not some way further down the line, so I am 
very grateful for the comments.


Many thanks!
--Richard E

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Re: [RDD] RLM

[Fred Gleason]

On Nov 5, 2018, at 13:08, Tim Camp  wrote:

> Is it possible to unload, load, or reload a RLM without restarting RdAirplay?

No. A (re)start of rdairplay is always needed.

Cheers!


|--|
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|   |  Paravel Systems |
|--|
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Re: [RDD] Carts Manually Imputed Times not shown

[Fred Gleason]

On Nov 3, 2018, at 15:34, ija...@jamcorbroadcast.com 
 wrote:

We noticed when we printed the logs with The carts that where put in by hand no 
times where present.
Does any on have a fix to this.
we only see them when the log is in the run in air play mode. Do any one have 
an Idea how we can get the full log with all times.


On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 4:38 PM Fred Gleason mailto:fr...@paravelsystems.com>> wrote:

This is the expected behavior - there is nothing to ‘fix’. Until the log is 
loaded and started, there is no context wherein estimated start times could be 
calculated.


On Nov 4, 2018, at 19:39, drew Roberts  wrote:

> Would it not be possible to have a "fake rdairplay" that would load a log for 
> the sole purpose of calculating these?

Possible, but it would be quite cumbersome to use. The user would have to 
specify an ‘expected start time’ for the log, as well as for any STOP 
transitions that weren’t also a Hard time, before relative times could be 
calculated. It’d be somewhat similar to what we do when we render a log to a 
single file, where we ask for a ’start time’ and also have an options to to 
treat STOPs as PLAYs. We do calculate relative times on logs generated by 
rdlogmanager(1), but that framework provides enough context that we can make 
reasonable estimates of the times. Entering items manually lacks most of that 
context.

Cheers!


|--|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. |  Chief Developer |
|   |  Paravel Systems |
|--|
| Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.  |
|-- J.R.R. Tolkien |
|"The Lord of the Rings"   |
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[RDD] RLM

[Tim Camp]

Greetings,

Don't believe I have ever seen anything about this.

Is it possible to unload, load, or reload a RLM without restarting
RdAirplay?

Cheers

Tim Camp
WZEW-FM
Mobile, Al.
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Re: [RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[drew Roberts]

Richard,
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 11:20 AM Richard G Elen  wrote:

> Hi...
>
> I am just starting with Rivendell, so please pardon my total lack of
> knowledge at this point which may result in my asking meaningless or
> impossible questions.
>

We all start somewhere. Welcome.


> I had set up a CentOS 7.5 system in advance and then followed the
> Rivendell CentOS installation document to install Rivendell (the only
> difference from the document's recommendation being that I did not define a
> separate partition for /var, as I followed the standard CentOS install
> recommendation).
>
> As I want to get to know Rivendell for a while and continue to use an
> existing Windows playout system in the meantime, the machine dual-boots
> into CentOS or Win 10. A 1.5 TB partition on the drive is formatted as NTFS
>

I don't think Rivendell is going to like that formatting... IIUC, it is
going to want a filesystem that can handle unix/linux idioms.


> and contains the music library, which is accessed by the Windows playout
> system currently. The library is mounted with ntfs-3g on boot into CentOS
> so it can be accessed by Rivendell.
>
> It appears that Rivendell requires to make a complete copy of the music
> library on ingestion with rdimport. This is inconvenient.
>

Perhaps, but it is what it is.


> There is insufficient space on the current drive to allow Rivendell to
> store a copy of the music library. Now of course I could attach an external
> drive, copy the library on to it and then let Rivendell ingest it from
> there and copy it back to where it is now. In which case, two questions
> arise:
>
>1. If I follow the copy-back-and-forth course outlined above, will the
>Rivendell-ingested copy of the music library still be able to be used by
>the Windows playout system or would I need to have *two *active copies
>of the music library, one for Windows playout and the other for Rivendell?
>
>
So, that may be very dangerous. If the windows playout system can deal with
wav files in a read only way, if it does not try to make any changes to
those wav files, it may work for a while.


>
>1. Does Rivendell require to make a copy of the library at all, or can
>it simply ingest the metadata and populate the database without copying the
>actual audio files?
>
>
When Rivendell ingests audio, if you are doing what is recommended, it will
put everything (make a copy) in /var/snd as .wav files.
Like so:

55_236.wav
550001_123.wav
99_001.wav

6digitcartnum_3digitcutnum.wav

Is the windows system going to be able to deal with such files. Does
windows have the ability to work with linux partitions these days?
(xfs/ext4/ext3?)

>
>1.
>
> Any observations or advice would be greatly appreciated, and thanks in
> advance.
>
> --Richard Elen
> radioriel.org
>
> all the best,

drew
-- 
Enjoy great *Bahamian Music* at:
Bahamian Or Nuttin - http://www.bahamianornuttin.com

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[RDD] rdimport - audio file location and ingestion

[Richard G Elen]

Hi...

I am just starting with Rivendell, so please pardon my total lack of 
knowledge at this point which may result in my asking meaningless or 
impossible questions.


I had set up a CentOS 7.5 system in advance and then followed the 
Rivendell CentOS installation document to install Rivendell (the only 
difference from the document's recommendation being that I did not 
define a separate partition for /var, as I followed the standard CentOS 
install recommendation).


As I want to get to know Rivendell for a while and continue to use an 
existing Windows playout system in the meantime, the machine dual-boots 
into CentOS or Win 10. A 1.5 TB partition on the drive is formatted as 
NTFS and contains the music library, which is accessed by the Windows 
playout system currently. The library is mounted with ntfs-3g on boot 
into CentOS so it can be accessed by Rivendell.


It appears that Rivendell requires to make a complete copy of the music 
library on ingestion with rdimport. This is inconvenient. There is 
insufficient space on the current drive to allow Rivendell to store a 
copy of the music library. Now of course I could attach an external 
drive, copy the library on to it and then let Rivendell ingest it from 
there and copy it back to where it is now. In which case, two questions 
arise:


1. If I follow the copy-back-and-forth course outlined above, will the
   Rivendell-ingested copy of the music library still be able to be
   used by the Windows playout system or would I need to have /two
   /active copies of the music library, one for Windows playout and the
   other for Rivendell?
2. Does Rivendell require to make a copy of the library at all, or can
   it simply ingest the metadata and populate the database without
   copying the actual audio files?

Any observations or advice would be greatly appreciated, and thanks in 
advance.


--Richard Elen
radioriel.org

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