Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: Can you point out where Arvind has made this statement? I am keen to know. In an interview on one of the news channels i was surfing across, which is still hearsay. to PWC and the Bank's meddling in appointing PWC, were the result of this tactical use of RTI. Arvind himself mentioned to me in a meeting that RTI provided the sheen of legitimacy to a tactical act. [snip] I am citing this story to indicate that everything don't exist in black and white and that instead of viewing politics, law, policy and democracy in normative and black and white terms, it is important to consider these in terms of balances of power and comparative justices. If we take democracy, law, policy and politics from normative pedestals and bring them down to everyday issues of contestations, then we may be able to move beyond lament and rant. Actually his opinions during the interview didnt come across as a rant, rather the opposite. Even if Arvindco made tactical use of the RTI (for a public cause?) it does not seem evil, considering the typical machiavellianism and apathy one lives with on a regular basis. I was definitely impressed by his account of a female volunteer who was working with them on the Delhi's PDS system, who refused to crumble to her family pressure (to tie the knot to a US groom) even after her throat was slashed. Hers was the 6th or 7th attack and they were on the verge of giving up but the girl persisted. Perhaps corruption and dirty politics is so brazenly woven into the fabric of daily life that we have no choice but accept and live with it. Is there no scope for change? :( Like said, this is what the usual story is. How do we move beyond this? Most discussions on politics end in such laments or otherwise rants!?!?!?! Would love to hear how too but I'd prefer to not judge those who dont want to devote their lives for a social cause either. There are so many issues here that one can get overwhelmed and choose to live life instead of going against the tide. Not everyone can be like the lady Arvind cited. While there may be folks who in their entire life in India have _never_ paid a wee bit extra money to get the job done, i'm yet to meet them :) Case would take a few years to be heard? It was just a shut case the moment the MMRDA told us to buzz off. Information on issues which can expose governments is hard to come by. In this case, the person filing the RTI was not only asking for information, but by virtue of asking for it, he was clearly indicating that something was going wrong in the way TDRs were being issued y MMRDA and used by builders. One also has to understand the political economy of land and of institutions such as MMRDA which was literally ruled over by Chief Ministers. In Mumbai, mention land and even a kid would agree that it is something of a scarce commodity. Yards away from where my ancestors lived, there was lotsa empty land, some marshy, some reserved for public parks and some private (iirc, belonged to a Parsi trust) and some public land with illegal structures (not excluding slums). Today, each of those spaces has a multi-storeyed structures (both commercial and residential), the public parks (three such spaces) have been occupied by different religious bodies belonging to different communities. Private buildings have cropped up on land reserved for general public utilities. One foreign business house got acres of government land de-reserved and transferred to facilitate the industrial progress and business growth (of Mumbai, ofcourse). Fighting these lobby's (or any other for that matter) is not a singular task and its harder because money has a way of silencing even the best of good intent. On that note, why is this issue being compared with Kasab's case? The issue A co-relational thread drift to the slow, hence delayed justice via the indian legal system!? On another list called the Sarai Reader List, I find that discussions around every post eventually veer on the plight of Kashmiri Pandits even when the original intent of the making the post was to discuss other issues. I'm not on the sarai list but since you mention the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, i'll extrapolate with the feed-back heard from the refugees. The Kashmiri Pandits (i know) feel they are treated as refugees in their own country. They tend to compare the attention the media reserves for other religions/communities and are upset that despite being suddenly thrown out of their homes in Kashmir the rest of India/world doesnt care enough. Reminding them that most Indians are temporarily outraged[1] does not soothe their ire. Adding to the drift here from Jagannathan's column, http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1253540 For India, which faces several insurgencies and revolts, the first lesson to learn is this: it must display determination and muscle early in any war. Otherwise,
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Dear . Would be interests, etcg to know which cases these are. Yes indeed. Atleast Kejriwal was honest enough to admit that he had not expected the misuse of the Act nor the delays within the system. Can you point out where Arvind has made this statement? I am keen to know. Arvind himself has in fact made tactical use of RTI. In 2004, when Madhu Bahduri, Arvind and couple of other individuals were trying to get documents pertaining to the 24x7 water privatization project which was to be implemented by PriceWaterhouse Coopers (PWC), World Bank and government of Delhi, they were refused these documents under RTI because of the third party clause. It meant that because third parties which were not government, were involved in the implementation of this project, they could not be given the contracts, meeting minutes and other documents requested. At that time, the engineers from the Delhi Jal Board (DJB) asked Arvind and company to file one more RTI application and this time, the engineers, simply handed over everything to the investigating team. The engineers did so becuase they themselves were concerned about the possible rise in the price of water if water were to be privatized and the impact on access to water under a private regime. The expose which arvind and co brought on thereafter, highlighting the corruption in the process of awarding contracts to PWC and the Bank's meddling in appointing PWC, were the result of this tactical use of RTI. Arvind himself mentioned to me in a meeting that RTI provided the sheen of legitimacy to a tactical act. This was the same experience which we had in Bangalore and Mumbai, trying to get documents of water privatization projects in these cities - we not getting the documents under legitimate strategies and then using the law through tactical means. I am citing this story to indicate that everything don't exist in black and white and that instead of viewing politics, law, policy and democracy in normative and black and white terms, it is important to consider these in terms of balances of power and comparative justices. If we take democracy, law, policy and politics from normative pedestals and bring them down to everyday issues of contestations, then we may be able to move beyond lament and rant. Frivolous cases do reduce the positive impact an Act could bring about and the officer (you cited) has a point about the right information falling into wrong hands (think terrorists with local networks). In this case, it was a housewife who filed the request for information on helipads. On another note, when we were evaluating public services in Mumbai, the water department refused to give us the map of the water pipeline, citing the issue of terrorism (back in 2004-2005). Perhaps corruption and dirty politics is so brazenly woven into the fabric of daily life that we have no choice but accept and live with it. Is there no scope for change? :( Like said, this is what the usual story is. How do we move beyond this? Most discussions on politics end in such laments or otherwise rants!?!?!?! was associated with in Mumbai tried to help a person to file an RTI with the metropolitan development authority to know how and where builders had used development rights in the city, we got a blatant response saying, Here are the contact details of the Appellate Authority. Go an lodge an appeal saying we are not giving you this information. !!! hah, the case would take years to be heard, another few years to get a judgement, and so on... take the Mumbai 26/11 terrorism case where despite the evidence, Kasab's lawyer is trying to pass him off as a juvenile, Who is to blame for the frivolousness being indulged in, while a terrorist enjoys state hospitality at the tax-payers expense. Case would take a few years to be heard? It was just a shut case the moment the MMRDA told us to buzz off. Information on issues which can expose governments is hard to come by. In this case, the person filing the RTI was not only asking for information, but by virtue of asking for it, he was clearly indicating that something was going wrong in the way TDRs were being issued y MMRDA and used by builders. One also has to understand the political economy of land and of institutions such as MMRDA which was literally ruled over by Chief Ministers. On that note, why is this issue being compared with Kasab's case? The issue of land use and control over land and the case of Kasab are two very different issues though both involve the state at different and comparative levels. On another list called the Sarai Reader List, I find that discussions around every post eventually veer on the plight of Kashmiri Pandits even when the original intent of the making the post was to discuss other issues. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Gaining Ground ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote: 2009/4/28 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Venkat, that is Rs 5 per day per pending application. It piles up quickly. As somebody who had to shell out Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes just to get a trade licence for his restaurant, trust me that Rs. 5 per day, even per application, is peanuts. Now imagine the bribe amount multiplied by the number of licences issued. -- * Madhu Menon Shiok Far-eastern Cuisine | Moss Cocktail Lounge 96, Amar Jyoti Layout, Inner Ring Road, Bangalore @ http://shiokfood.comhttp://mosslounge.com Join the Moss group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=39295417270
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Venkat Mangudi's Silk Account s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: Agreed, it is Rs 5/day/application. If it was 10x it might make a small difference. Rs 5 ia too paltry a sum for them to scare them to action. They probably earn 1000x as cutbacks. Sorry, but my opinion is not very high. I think the fine amount is somewhat higher than this. I am saying this because it was originally conceived to be a deterrent. In fact, when my former colleagues and I threatened a municipal clerk in Bombay on taking her to the appellate authority and having her fined, she was really scared. I will check and find out what is the precise fine amount. I also think the amount increases after a certain period, but am not entirely sure ... I also hear Zainab's statement a bout frivolous pleas and such. But the act is a law and everyone has to abide by it or amend it. That is the most interesting thing about laws. They have fantastic unintended consequences, as do regulations. This does not mean that I am advocating people don't use RTI. It is interesting to note what happens when people begin to use the law rather excessively and frivolously. Hirschmann talks about situations like these in Exit, Voice and Loyalty and provides interesting analyses. On 4/29/09, Kiran Jonnalagadda j...@pobox.com wrote: 2009/4/28 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Venkat, that is Rs 5 per day per pending application. It piles up quickly. -- Sent from my mobile device -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
As somebody who had to shell out Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes just to get a trade licence for his restaurant, trust me that Rs. 5 per day, even per application, is peanuts. Now imagine the bribe amount multiplied by the number of licences issued. How many such licenses do get issued any way, let's say per month? Would be interesting to find out. And who levies the bribe? Is it municipal government departments or state government departments or both? -- * Madhu Menon Shiok Far-eastern Cuisine | Moss Cocktail Lounge 96, Amar Jyoti Layout, Inner Ring Road, Bangalore @ http://shiokfood.comhttp://mosslounge.com Join the Moss group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=39295417270 -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] circumstances. Also, lower level officers tend to get fined more often than the higher level bureaucrats and this could mean a lot not only in monetary terms, but also bringing them under the ire and fire of seniors, Wasnt the Act supposed to introduce transparency in the first place? So it would be interesting to see the fines shared across the hierarchy. Not sure if it will change the bureaucratic attitude though. Albert O Hirschmann's work titled Exit, Voice and Loyalty is very interesting in regard to RTI. Hirschmann analyzes what happens when people have too many options to exercise their voice and when too many people decide to express their voice in particular circumstances. He tries to understand these patterns in the context of feedback cycles and how these cycles can get skewed in situations when one option is exercised excessively than the other. Well, democracy is not always democratic and freedom does not mean absolute freedom either *shrug* As in? What would be the examples. Just curious. ... and then there are cases where the acts could have been used to harass another officer (or seniors), stop promotions, question X/Y/Z action and raise straw-man arguments, allude and ... you get the point !! Frivolous cases do reduce the positive impact an Act could bring about and the officer (you cited) has a point about the right information falling into wrong hands (think terrorists with local networks). Kinda sad but not surprising. Perhaps corruption and dirty politics is so brazenly woven into the fabric of daily life that we have no choice but accept and live with it. Is there no scope for change? :( Would be interesting to know which cases these are. Yes indeed. Atleast Kejriwal was honest enough to admit that he had not expected the misuse of the Act nor the delays within the system. was associated with in Mumbai tried to help a person to file an RTI with the metropolitan development authority to know how and where builders had used development rights in the city, we got a blatant response saying, Here are the contact details of the Appellate Authority. Go an lodge an appeal saying we are not giving you this information. !!! hah, the case would take years to be heard, another few years to get a judgement, and so on... take the Mumbai 26/11 terrorism case where despite the evidence, Kasab's lawyer is trying to pass him off as a juvenile, Who is to blame for the frivolousness being indulged in, while a terrorist enjoys state hospitality at the tax-payers expense. -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: . wrote: 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Probably because even this (AK may have said 50 bucks a day. I dont remember his exact words) paltry fine does not get implemented by the Commission (staffed by Ex-bureaucrats, but ofcourse) which definitely has the authority. @Madhu : I'm told Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes (a 2% cut??) would be the going rate, mandatory in any Indian entrepreneur circle. Ah. Here, in a few sentences, we have an explanation of why social initiatives and voluntary activities don't work on a sustained basis in India. (And very few of us put it so honestly as Venkat has done.) Each of us is fighting our own battles on various fronts, to get ahead in our lives and careers. Every morning, I do not know if I will have electricity, water...whether the creaky infrastructure that keeps my life going will work, or at what points it will break down...and what sudden measures will have to be adopted to patch up and keep going. Your words remind me of a recent movie on Bharathiar aired on TV (no ad breaks, which speaks volumes but i digress) which introduced facets of his life I had not known. It was sad to see his wife reduced to tears while struggling with abject poverty and not knowing how she would feed her two daughters the next meal whilst her husband was being feted for his iconic stand on womens rights. While he was busy breaking tradition by hugging a donkey, it was his wife bearing the brunt of societal ire. It was so ironic. That is not to say that women activists and reformers dont exist but maybe women are differently wired. And there is truth in the saying charity begins at home. [snipped the good stuff you've been up to..] Well, there will, thankfully, be many people who have both the time, enthusiasm, and inclination to try and make changes...but don't judge the people who are not able to, or willing to, get into this. I wonder why I suddenly burst out like this...! Oh well, let it stand. I grok what you mean. Your experience reminds me that change is hard but bringing about positive change is harder, a lot harder than one can imagine. Especially when you are the only one feeling victorious (besides the harassment and umpteen trips to-n-fro) instead of taking the (gr)easy way out. The pressure is akin to climbing Everest sans protective winter gear, i imagine. -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
I also hear Zainab's statement a bout frivolous pleas and such. But the act is a law and everyone has to abide by it or amend it. That is the most interesting thing about laws. They have fantastic unintended consequences, as do regulations. This does not mean that I am advocating people don't use RTI. It is interesting to note what happens when people begin to use the law rather excessively and frivolously. Hirschmann I don't have any experience with RTI requests, but a significant part of my job involves dealing with disclosure/discovery issues in litigation, and the process of answering a disclosure request seems to be quite similar to the process of answering an RTI request. Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time consuming) to answer. I'm sure lots of bureaucrats are abusing the weakness of RTI enforcement provisions, but it just isn't that easy to do in many cases. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
hah, the case would take years to be heard, another few years to get a judgement, and so on... take the Mumbai 26/11 terrorism case where despite the evidence, Kasab's lawyer is trying to pass him off as a juvenile, Who is to blame for the frivolousness being indulged in, while a terrorist enjoys state hospitality at the tax-payers expense. What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she can and should put forward any argument she can to save him. As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't know where to begin. I suggest you take a pitchfork and stand outside his jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a mob quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last shreds of the rule of law in India. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time consuming) to answer. If it is hard and time consuming, does it mean that we (or our elected representatives) agreed to implement an act without actually thinking through the ramifications? Sounds very familiar though.
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she can and should put forward any argument she can to save him. While a lawyer should defend their client(s), perjury is not exactly the best way to wiggle out of a sticky case. That India does not hand out harsher punishments like (say) the US courts does not make it a line of defence either. As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't know where to begin. Then dont !! -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time consuming) to answer. If it is hard and time consuming, does it mean that we (or our elected representatives) agreed to implement an act without actually thinking through the ramifications? Sounds very familiar though. I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the issues are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not so much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool.. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
. wrote, [on 4/29/2009 9:25 PM]: What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she can and should put forward any argument she can to save him. While a lawyer should defend their client(s), perjury is not exactly the best way to wiggle out of a sticky case. Perhaps you missed the second parenthetical bit that Badri wrote above? As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't know where to begin. Then dont !! Can you expand on what you meant by this effusion? I'm curious. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:25 PM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't know where to begin. Then dont !! A rope and the nearest tree! Due process be damned! -- Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the issues But you are sure that it is hard and time consuming? are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not so much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time They are the same chaps who also fund other government projects, they should know, yes? consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool.. Valuable at what cost? If I am paying tax to fund frivolous RTI requests, or fine for not providing that information, I am ok with going back to the time before RTI. As a citizen, I don't see any direct impact on my life. I read about it in the news, that sums up what it does for me. Venkat
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a mob quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last As opposed to the people from whom we are protecting him by assiging extremely tight security? shreds of the rule of law in India. These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11, one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest democracy according to everybody. -Venkat
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the issues But you are sure that it is hard and time consuming? Oh yes. The discovery process in litigation basically involves each party in the case sending requests like RTI requests to each other for information/documentation and I know just how painful it is to find and collate responses to requests like that. I don't know exactly how RTI is structured in India - I think requests go to a specific officer in the relevant department in charge of RTI and then he has to get the requested information out of the relevant people in the dept. I also have a lot of experience trying to get information out of my clients and it is just not that easy. are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not so much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time They are the same chaps who also fund other government projects, they should know, yes? They probably *know*. I suspect they're just not keen on funding something that can be used to shine a light on their activities. consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool.. Valuable at what cost? If I am paying tax to fund frivolous RTI requests, or fine for not providing that information, I am ok with going back to the time before RTI. As a citizen, I don't see any direct impact on my life. I read about it in the news, that sums up what it does for me. It's a fair question about whether the cost/benefit is worth it. I have read articles (no cite handy) about the impact of RTI, how it is empowering villagers, etc, etc, so I think even in the watered down version that was passed, it is having a positive impact. Personally, unless the scale of frivolity is shown to be enormous, I think the cost-benefit is worth it in a place like India where it is very difficult to get information out of the government or hold it accountable. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11, one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest democracy according to everybody. A democracy depends on a functioning rule of law. A summary judgment without due process is in direct conflict with that request. Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental maxim of that and is agnostic to the nature of the crime or the person committing it. It is open to people to vote for a party that would proceed otherwise - but then there's no guarantee that a citizen will then have the protection of due process. -- Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a mob quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last As opposed to the people from whom we are protecting him by assiging extremely tight security? I genuinely don't understand what you mean by this bit. shreds of the rule of law in India. These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11, one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest democracy according to everybody. I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here either, but self-evidently, we're holding him in prison and giving him a trial because that is what the law requires (and it is the right thing to do). The purpose of a trial isn't to gather intelligence (I'm guessing that's happened already, subject to the limitations you pointed out). It's not an optional exercise to prove anything to anyone. It shows that however flawed it is, we still have *some* semblance of the rule of law in India. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: I genuinely don't understand what you mean by this bit. Apparently, there are people trying to kill him. And not just Indian extremists.
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: Perhaps you missed the second parenthetical bit that Badri wrote above? No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can atleast tell us how you developed this impression...? Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Er...you *are* aware that the definition of perjury hinges on know and not suspect, yes? Do you mean the defence lawyer does not know his client had confessed (and revealed his age in an earlier hearing) and later retracted the same. I'm not aware of his case details but does getting a new lawyer mean an earlier confession is invalid? Yes, but what did *you* _mean_ by that? by what ? then dont ? ... that contextual trolling is bait avoided. Udhay, ignoring the temptation to riff on suggestive contextomy now i'm curious. -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can ad hominem? have you ever interacted with the indian legal system before asking this question. i have and choose not to provide evidence un-related to the discussion (Kasab's case) at hand. -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Er...you *are* aware that the definition of perjury hinges on know and not suspect, yes? Do you mean the defence lawyer does not know his client had confessed (and revealed his age in an earlier hearing) and later retracted the same. I'm not aware of his case details but does getting a new lawyer mean an earlier confession is invalid? No, an earlier confession isn't automatically invalid. And certainly you can assume that the defence lawyer knows what Kasab's confession said. The issue will turn on the details (of which we are unaware). If, for example, Kasab told his lawyer that he had been coerced to say he was an adult, when in fact he was not (I don't know what Kasab told his lawyer - this is an example), then it would be perfectly appropriate for the lawyer to say that he was a juvenile. If Kasab told his lawyer that his confession was correct and he was an adult, then of course the lawyer is not allowed to say to the court that he's a juvenile (and if he did it would be a serious breach of professional ethics). But we don't actually know what went on between them. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can ad hominem? have you ever interacted with the indian legal system before asking this question. i have and choose not to provide evidence un-related to the discussion (Kasab's case) at hand. How is my question ad hominem? You made an unsupported assertion and I asked if you had any evidence to support it, because it doesn't jibe with my experience. Not because I think Indian courts are better than American courts - on average American courts are certainly better. But because perjury by its nature is a very serious charge, with a very high standard of proof, and for that reason , you almost never see successful perjury prosecutions in India OR the US (or England for that matter). As a result, it is very difficult to make statements like yours - there simply isn't enough data (and indeed, it is virtually impossible to gather the data - how will you find out - in any legal system - how many people lied under oath but were *not* prosecuted?). It is your choice whether or not to provide evidence to support your assertion. No doubt you know your assertion lacks credibility if you can't support it. As for me, I am an Advocate and I have practised law in India, California (briefly) and now England, so yes, you could say that I have interacted with the Indian legal system. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 23:44, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: If his earlier confession[0] isn't invalid how is this not perjury? I'm curious. [0] http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=enart=15109 Swati Sathe, Jail superintendent said when he was admitted to the prison, Kasab gave his age as 21 and his date of birth as September 13, 1987. A second witness confirmed this: Venkat Ramamurthy, a resident doctor in a government hospital, testified that when the injured Kasab was brought there at 1 a.m. on November 27, 2008, he said his age was 21. The difference between know and suspect would be this: a) the lawyer has in his possession some documents proving Kasab's age, but still goes ahead and claims that Kasab is a juvenile. b) the lawyer has been informed through prosecution documents that Kasab has told the jail superintendent and a government hospital doctor that he is 21. Kasab looks as though he is above eighteen. Kasab's instructions to this lawyer are to claim he is a juvenile. He goes ahead and claims Kasab is a juvenile. The lawyer would be in dereliction of his duty in the second case, imho, if he decided to play judge and disregard his client's claim of being a juvenile, and refuse to present it to court. It is a defence lawyer's duty to defend a person, even if he or she believes that person to be guilty. Also of interest might be s.126 of the Indian Evidence Act, regarding attorney-client confidentiality: http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/indianevidenceact/CHAPTER9/S126.html snip Illustrations: (a) A, a client, says to B, an attorney - I have committed forgery and I wish you to defend me. As the defense of a man known to be guilty is not a criminal purpose, _this communication is protected from disclosure_. (b) A, a client, says to B, and attorney - I wish to obtain possession of property by the use of forged deed on which I request you to sue. The communication being made in furtherance of criminal purpose, is not protected from disclosure. (c) A, being charged with embezzlement retains B, an attorney to defend him, In the course of the proceedings B observes that an entry has been made in A's account book, charging A with the sum said to have been embezzled, which entry was not in the book at the commencement of his employment. This being a fact observed by B in the course of his employment showing that a fraud has been committed since the commencement of the proceedings, it is not protected from disclosure. /snip
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: How is my question ad hominem? You made an unsupported assertion and I Unsupported assertion? In the 26/11 case? I never said Kasab should not get a lawyer or get a fair trial or that perjury was committed in the 26/11 case. Before quoting me out of context can you explain how you concluded or assumed that my statement on perjury was referring to the 26/11 case in particular? I know you didn't. The unsupported assertion was the statement about how it is easier to perjure yourself in Indian courts/Indian courts are more lenient on perjury, or something along those lines. asked if you had any evidence to support it, because it doesn't jibe with my experience. Not because I think Indian courts are better than American One, everyone does not have the same experiences and as a lawyer if you have not experienced it in an Indian court, your client is lucky. Two, why should i cite un-related personal cases on an archived list? The Indian court system is far from perfect - my point is that it is not possible to make the kind of generalization you did about perjury in India vs. the US. You don't have to discuss anything personal to you - as I said, that is your choice. But it is a fact that if you make an assertion based on personal experience, and then refuse to discuss the personal experience, then your assertion loses credibility - however justified it is for you not to discuss your personal cases. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
. wrote: ** iirc, Kejriwal said the IC is empowered to fine the officer 5 bucks per day beyond the mandatory 30 days. In some cases this has turned into a 3 year window. 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. I am slowly losing confidence in measures like RTI that attempts to bring transparency to the governance. Wish I could do something about it, but I am selfish in more ways than one to be able to set aside some time to take action. I, like many others, am just wringing my hands and crying what a shame. It's sad, really. Maybe once I overcome my commitments I could devote time to the social cause. Venkat
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: . wrote: 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Most fines in our country ARE a joke; it's an added incentive, I feel to break the laws. Wish I could do something about it, but I am selfish in more ways than one to be able to set aside some time to take action. I, like many others, am just wringing my hands and crying what a shame. It's sad, really. Maybe once I overcome my commitments I could devote time to the social cause. Ah. Here, in a few sentences, we have an explanation of why social initiatives and voluntary activities don't work on a sustained basis in India. (And very few of us put it so honestly as Venkat has done.) Each of us is fighting our own battles on various fronts, to get ahead in our lives and careers. Every morning, I do not know if I will have electricity, water...whether the creaky infrastructure that keeps my life going will work, or at what points it will break down...and what sudden measures will have to be adopted to patch up and keep going. I think the strength of basic infrastructure could be one reason that so many Indians abroad do find time to volunteer for a lot of social causes. Apart from this, of course, is the general feeling that the corruption is so bad (generally true) from the grassroots up, that fighting the system for change is just not possible. After several years of voluntary work, I have to agree that most of the time, it is heart-breaking, frustrating, and often ends in failure. (Eg. about fifteen years ago, for a whole year, we fought to keep Commercial Street, a shopping area in Bangalore, free of cars, and a pedestrian-only zone, with a shuttle operating every ten minutes. It was some of the shopkeepers themselves who mightily undermined this effort, and got traffic back into the narrow street.) I *am* a person who felt that I had met my commitments; my daughter was grown up and gone, we had settled down for good in one city (Bangalore)...and I threw myself whole-heartedly into civic issues (apart from my usual voluntary work trying to make a difference to special people)...almost gave up using my car, adopted green practices. But the point is, after many years, I have not been able to make a change...in fact, I have been associated with spectacular failures like being unable to save a single one of those majestic trees on Seshadri Road ( 50-year-old trees were felled to widen the road so that MORE traffic can flow in, and choke the roads and air further, without the trees to act as a carbon-dioxide filter.) If I go to attend a hearing at Vidhan Soudha against tree-felling or lake privatization, that's the entire morning or afternoon gone, especially if it means taking the bus...Going by bus from X to Y means I must budget two or sometimes two and a half hours for the journey. Which working person can spare this kind of time? So...as a green activist, and as a concerned citizen of a city that is collapsing under corruption and inefficiency...I cannot blame the Average Citizen for not caring, or rather, caring but not wanting to do much about it. Well, there will, thankfully, be many people who have both the time, enthusiasm, and inclination to try and make changes...but don't judge the people who are not able to, or willing to, get into this. I wonder why I suddenly burst out like this...! Oh well, let it stand. Deepa.
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
In a recent interview I heard Arvind Kejriwal opine that the RTI has too many backlog cases and the Information Commission which is supposed to fine the officers does not bother to implement this fine/action**, thereby pushing the RTI towards its slow and imminent death. The information on MPLADs and MLALADs as well as use of funds by municipal councillors is often already documented by concerned officials. So also, details of attendance and questions asked are recorded and documented by Parliamentary and Legislative committees. It is simply a matter of the officials compiling this information and giving it. That is how both SNS and Praja have managed in Delhi and Mumbai respectively. They have also used other information sources and analytical methods to arrive at their respective conclusions and develop their databases/information archives. RTI is both a normative and a tactical tool and is utilized in various ways. At the local level, it can be very efficacious, especially in circumstances where information is sought to be concealed, like information about Privatization projects and about land use and land development. At the same time, many people file RTI applications which inconvenience some of the already over-worked officials, especially in the municipal departments. When I was researching an e-governance project in the Mumbai municipal corporation (BMC), the complaint officers who handle the processing and following up of all civic complaints at ward levels showed me the large volumes of information that individuals were demanding from them. This required the complaint officers to collect the data from other departments in addition to sourcing it our from their own. Sometimes this results in natural delays and therefore, the fines can be unjustified in such circumstances. Also, lower level officers tend to get fined more often than the higher level bureaucrats and this could mean a lot not only in monetary terms, but also bringing them under the ire and fire of seniors, particularly in an atmosphere where there is talk of blanket privatization of municipal services and departments, and cutting down on staff (both of which need to be examined contextually and politically). In one case, the secretary to the governor showed me how a lady had filed a RTI application asking about the size of the helipad in the governor's bungalow, the amount of petrol consumed by the helicopter, safety measures, etc. He said he would not mind giving the information but he needed to know why she wanted this information because it could have security implications. Albert O Hirschmann's work titled Exit, Voice and Loyalty is very interesting in regard to RTI. Hirschmann analyzes what happens when people have too many options to exercise their voice and when too many people decide to express their voice in particular circumstances. He tries to understand these patterns in the context of feedback cycles and how these cycles can get skewed in situations when one option is exercised excessively than the other. I've also heard that the RTI is largely misused but i'd still like to think its an effective tool if used positively. As in? What would be the examples. Just curious. ** iirc, Kejriwal said the IC is empowered to fine the officer 5 bucks per day beyond the mandatory 30 days. In some cases this has turned into a 3 year window. Would be interesting to know which cases these are. When the organization I was associated with in Mumbai tried to help a person to file an RTI with the metropolitan development authority to know how and where builders had used development rights in the city, we got a blatant response saying, Here are the contact details of the Appellate Authority. Go an lodge an appeal saying we are not giving you this information. !!! -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
2009/4/28 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Venkat, that is Rs 5 per day per pending application. It piles up quickly.
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Agreed, it is Rs 5/day/application. If it was 10x it might make a small difference. Rs 5 ia too paltry a sum for them to scare them to action. They probably earn 1000x as cutbacks. Sorry, but my opinion is not very high. I also hear Zainab's statement a bout frivolous pleas and such. But the act is a law and everyone has to abide by it or amend it. Am not a lawyer or legal expert, but RTI is law, right? On 4/29/09, Kiran Jonnalagadda j...@pobox.com wrote: 2009/4/28 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Venkat, that is Rs 5 per day per pending application. It piles up quickly. -- Sent from my mobile device
[silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Hello, Does anybody know where I can find more resources that give copious, reliable and accurate information about the development being taken in all states. Something like the Outlook magazine's reports recently on the development taken by each politician in their own constituency ? http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090504fname=Report+cardsid=1 Thanks and regards, -- Bharat
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Does anybody know where I can find more resources that give copious, reliable and accurate information about the development being taken in all states. Outlook, or rather the Satark Nagarik Sanghatana (SNS), has provided information about way in which each MP has spent the discretionary funds from what is known as the MPLAD fund. SNS got this information by filing right to information (RTI) applications. You can similarly find information about how municipal councilors in Mumbai have spent money from their discretionary funds on www.praja.org For similar information on MLAs, you have to file RTI applications with respective state government departments asking for they have spent money from their discretionary MLA-LAD funds. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Zainab, Thanks for the quick information :-) -- Bharat On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: Does anybody know where I can find more resources that give copious, reliable and accurate information about the development being taken in all states. Outlook, or rather the Satark Nagarik Sanghatana (SNS), has provided information about way in which each MP has spent the discretionary funds from what is known as the MPLAD fund. SNS got this information by filing right to information (RTI) applications. You can similarly find information about how municipal councilors in Mumbai have spent money from their discretionary funds on www.praja.org For similar information on MLAs, you have to file RTI applications with respective state government departments asking for they have spent money from their discretionary MLA-LAD funds. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 9:39 PM, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.comwrote: Zainab, Thanks for the quick information :-) -- Bharat The other means to find state assembly constituency development profiles is to gather data from NSSO about population statistics, and about education indicators and other basic amenity indicators from other data sources. This is much more tedious. We, at www.empoweringindia.org, are trying to put together constituency development profiles after the national elections are over. But this is going to be an uphill task given also that the population census is already backdated. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: For similar information on MLAs, you have to file RTI applications with In a recent interview I heard Arvind Kejriwal opine that the RTI has too many backlog cases and the Information Commission which is supposed to fine the officers does not bother to implement this fine/action**, thereby pushing the RTI towards its slow and imminent death. I've also heard that the RTI is largely misused but i'd still like to think its an effective tool if used positively. ** iirc, Kejriwal said the IC is empowered to fine the officer 5 bucks per day beyond the mandatory 30 days. In some cases this has turned into a 3 year window. -- .
